Originally posted by Mackerni You know, quoting every single thing you argue to the point which 90% of the post is just quotations is kind of silly. Be a dear and delete everything but the actual new point in which you are talking about or arguing against? That's what I do.....
What you do allows people to shift and drop context -- it's what always happens when anyone does that on these forums. I find maintaining context -- FULL context -- is superior. Sorry if it bothers you, and you think it's kind of silly. I don't.
Originally posted by ummax Originally posted by Mackerni You know, quoting every single thing you argue to the point which 90% of the post is just quotations is kind of silly. Be a dear and delete everything but the actual new point in which you are talking about or arguing against? That's what I do.....
I gave up on that as this forum wont behave and I then decided after attempting to do that that since no one else does that is how this particular forum likes to run itself. Anyhow whenever I try to remove anything that should not go there I make a mess and the spacing goes away and the quotes go away and I gave that up for lent unless I can get it to work on the first try. I complained about how this forum worked awhile back but that's about all I can do.
Another good point on that subject. These forums are not conducive to that either.
Obsidion made a pretty dog gone good game. Great storyline etc. The MoTB expansion was one of the best I have played.
KOTOR2 was going great also until it was pushed out the door. They made a huge improvement over the original KOTOR(more class options/tradeskills/etc).
You are pointing fingers at a company unfairly methinks.
The guy, that was in charge of licensing at LA, had a reputation of making contracters push things out the door on launch date...even if they werent ready.
I wish I had a link to the interview with him that says as much.
Basically he states "they signed to have it done by such and such time...we expect them to meet it.".
And from playing MMOs you should know...sometimes things just arent ready for whatever reason.
But as always...the total blame goes to SOE. Yet the all too familiar story detailing the workings of LA go unheeded.
Fish...I expect that out of most the folks on these forums...not you bro. Open your eyes.
What I am saying is the things people are bringing up are NOT proving their points -- but the statements we have from all parties involved shows that the NGE was SOE's fault and that LEC should never have trusted SOE.
Once again to bring up GOOD GAMES that the company makes proves nothing -- everyone bad does something good. I am merely poking holes in people who try and use what happened to KOTOR 2 as any evidence to what happened with SWG.
MY point is that all speculative, oustide evidence, all pattern of nehavior evidence cancels itself out, as I have shown, and all we are left with are the actual evidence WE HAVE -- which clearly shows that SOE is to blame for the NGE, and LA never should have let SOE do it.
That places most blame on SOE, or at least it should and would in any business relationship.
KotOR 2 shipped in the shape it did because Obsidian blew through the (limited) budget and LEC wasn't willing to pay more. Considering the president of Obsidian posted on their forums that he was actively trying to get LEC to hire them to make KotOR 3, I don't think they had all that bad of an experience with the supposed "Iron Fist of Lucas". For a guy who is supposed to be a control freak over the Star Wars IP, the Neck seems to be very laid back about the EU stuff (he claims to not read any of the books, because he has people he employs to keep track of that stuff).
NwN 2 is a good game now, but that wasn't the case when it was released. When it was released it had several issues that made it almost unplayable. Using KotOR 2 as some sort of proof that LEC caused the problems with SWG is laughable.
so you want to admit that LA would not pay for a better quality product? and then say its not proof of the fact that they are willing to put out shabby stuff? They could have cancelled it and not shipped at all but that is what they did. They shipped a broken product and sold it to peple for money , but somehow LA has no blame in what goes on in any of its games? Why have they not pulled the plug on SWG?
that also makes no sense please elaborate.
Who has claimed that LEC has no blame for the shape SWG is currently in? I've yet to see anyone make that claim, except for people like yourself who are claiming that people are making the claim. I've also not seen anyone make the claim that LEC hasn't put out products that were complete crap. LEC has been focused on poor quality Star Wars games for years. When they hire a quality developer to make games for them, they end up with quality games (KotOR, the Jedi Knight/Dark Forces games, Empire at War, etc.). When they hire poor quality developers to make games for them, we end up with stuff like the NGE. When they develop their own games, they are very much hit and miss (mostly miss for the last several years).
As for why LEC hasn't shut down SWG, I honestly have no clue. I would assume they mistakenly believe that keeping SWG live is having some sort of positive effect, as opposed to damaging the potential viablility of a future MMO using the IP. What we do know, from the folks who were actually there and involved, is that the folks at LEC did not force SOE to make the changes to the game that has caused the game to be in the pathertic state it is currently in. It was the folks from SOE that convinced the folks at LEC that the changes would make the game better and increase the subscription numbers. SOE's primary function is to make MMORPGs, LEC's function is a publisher/developer of single player games. The folks at SOE were supposed to be experts in their field.
As for KotOR 2, had the folks at Obsidian not released some of the design docs for the content that was cut, nobody would think KotOR 2 was anything more than a game that wasn't as good as the first one. It was a complete game, one that would have been much better had what was cut been included, but it wasn't shipped as an incomplete or broken product. Content is cut all the time to make release dates, or because of budget constraints. Obsidian set about building a game that required a much larger budget than they had, so things had to be cut. They didn't seem to upset about it, considering they tried to get LEC to hire them to make KotOR 3. They are very open to admitting they made a bunch of mistakes while developing KotOR 2, and claim to have learned from the experience.
interesting but the tidal wave of threads that blame soe and when people try to say something about it say that LA is only responsible for like signing the paycheques. Its all over these forums and all of a sudden there is a shift?
Its funny that but these forums dont reflect that any blame is placed on them. IN fact the first time I said to people "hey you guys buy LA's stuff" and they had something to do with it I was shouted down. What people say is not reflecting that anyone will even slightly acknowledge it unless some pushing is done. Then and only then wil people begrudglingly admit that LA played a "small part" usualy tiny infintesimal when its their money, they IP and ultimately their game that they still sell in their boxes on their website.
Now people seem to not have a problem with "forgiving" LEC, bioware for the kotor screw up but they wont give a dime to sony. Now sony has openly admitted even the smedley guy that they went to far and that they wont be doing that again. I have seen people openly deny that Sony apologized even though they have. Somehow everyone can find it in their hearts to forgive LA and bioware, but wont give the same consideration to sony. Yet as we speak sony is putting things into the game (that LA lets them) to make it better. Things work.
Somehow though the fact that there is no classic CU server is of course only sony's fault. The entire point of what is being said around here is what would it take to get some people back. Everyone points to sony alone not LA the guy who owns the thing and pays the bills. Somehow its only sony's decision to upt in CU servers and LA has no say over it? Its LA's money and LA"s game. If the changes that people seem to want (rollback servers) are not forthcoming then 50% of the reason (the word yes) would ahve to come from LA along with the funding and manpower, but its not forthcoming, but somehow the lack of these servers is just a sony thing.
When I see some threads pulling LA apart the way people dismantle sony then maybe I will believe that people actualy place some reasonable amount of blame on LA as they should until then this forums shouds "i hate sony" and nothing more and its pretty much misplaced and should have like its own forum under sony or something and that was the point of what was said about a page or so back.
In other words you are angry about something that has happened in other threads and are carrying that grudge here. Why does it matter to you what people say about SONY? why does it all get you so upset that you can't let it go?
No one is 'shouting anyone down, " nor can anyone "shout anyone down" on a forum. What areyou talking about. We are all just typing here. Why take it all so personally. YOU are NOT SONY, are you? I am certainly not LEC, and I could care less what people say about it. I care only about the truth and evidence, and have hope that the debacle will not be repeated. I merely share the evidence I have seen over the years, and discount the speculative as it should be discounted, andwhen someone brings forth pattern of behavior "evidence," which is questionable at best, I show how SOE is guilty of it's own pattern of bahavior in all their games, and show how it has even led to making their good games unsuccessful.
I don't get upset, angry, or shout, I merely exchange reasons for reasons, and if someone ever shows me better reasons than mine, I'll change my opinion on a dime. All you have shared is the same tired nonsense I have seen before, and gotten all upset about it when I disagree with you (as usual).
I'm not angry what makes you think that? or is this another attempt at changing the subject? usualy when people infer about another person its cause they are starting to not want to deal with the issue so just take my word for it and realize i'm not angry.
I pointed out that this "i hate swg forum" is in fact an "i hate SOE" forum because I have not seen since my time posting here one single thread being angry at LA.
I'm angry at neither I actually enjoy the present rendition of SWG and am labelled a "fanboi" so technically I like LA and SOE. What I want to know is why no one hammers away at LA like they do at SOE. The answers I get is a wishy washy reply like you blame them a tiny bit but not much at all realll cause its mostly SOE's fault and LA is being held captive and is somehow a vitcim of SOE cause they had them by the "short and curly" and has like no say in anything and and and and.. soooo yeah "we never said it was all SOE's fault"
Originally posted by ummax Originally posted by Fishermage
Originally posted by ummax
Originally posted by Obee
Originally posted by ummax
Originally posted by Obee
Originally posted by Fishermage
Originally posted by Moaky07 Um Fisher...
I take it you havent played NWN2 then?
Obsidion made a pretty dog gone good game. Great storyline etc. The MoTB expansion was one of the best I have played. KOTOR2 was going great also until it was pushed out the door. They made a huge improvement over the original KOTOR(more class options/tradeskills/etc). You are pointing fingers at a company unfairly methinks. The guy, that was in charge of licensing at LA, had a reputation of making contracters push things out the door on launch date...even if they werent ready. I wish I had a link to the interview with him that says as much. Basically he states "they signed to have it done by such and such time...we expect them to meet it.". And from playing MMOs you should know...sometimes things just arent ready for whatever reason. But as always...the total blame goes to SOE. Yet the all too familiar story detailing the workings of LA go unheeded. Fish...I expect that out of most the folks on these forums...not you bro. Open your eyes.
What I am saying is the things people are bringing up are NOT proving their points -- but the statements we have from all parties involved shows that the NGE was SOE's fault and that LEC should never have trusted SOE.
Once again to bring up GOOD GAMES that the company makes proves nothing -- everyone bad does something good. I am merely poking holes in people who try and use what happened to KOTOR 2 as any evidence to what happened with SWG. MY point is that all speculative, oustide evidence, all pattern of nehavior evidence cancels itself out, as I have shown, and all we are left with are the actual evidence WE HAVE -- which clearly shows that SOE is to blame for the NGE, and LA never should have let SOE do it. That places most blame on SOE, or at least it should and would in any business relationship.
KotOR 2 shipped in the shape it did because Obsidian blew through the (limited) budget and LEC wasn't willing to pay more. Considering the president of Obsidian posted on their forums that he was actively trying to get LEC to hire them to make KotOR 3, I don't think they had all that bad of an experience with the supposed "Iron Fist of Lucas". For a guy who is supposed to be a control freak over the Star Wars IP, the Neck seems to be very laid back about the EU stuff (he claims to not read any of the books, because he has people he employs to keep track of that stuff). NwN 2 is a good game now, but that wasn't the case when it was released. When it was released it had several issues that made it almost unplayable. Using KotOR 2 as some sort of proof that LEC caused the problems with SWG is laughable.
so you want to admit that LA would not pay for a better quality product? and then say its not proof of the fact that they are willing to put out shabby stuff? They could have cancelled it and not shipped at all but that is what they did. They shipped a broken product and sold it to peple for money , but somehow LA has no blame in what goes on in any of its games? Why have they not pulled the plug on SWG? that also makes no sense please elaborate.
Who has claimed that LEC has no blame for the shape SWG is currently in? I've yet to see anyone make that claim, except for people like yourself who are claiming that people are making the claim. I've also not seen anyone make the claim that LEC hasn't put out products that were complete crap. LEC has been focused on poor quality Star Wars games for years. When they hire a quality developer to make games for them, they end up with quality games (KotOR, the Jedi Knight/Dark Forces games, Empire at War, etc.). When they hire poor quality developers to make games for them, we end up with stuff like the NGE. When they develop their own games, they are very much hit and miss (mostly miss for the last several years). As for why LEC hasn't shut down SWG, I honestly have no clue. I would assume they mistakenly believe that keeping SWG live is having some sort of positive effect, as opposed to damaging the potential viablility of a future MMO using the IP. What we do know, from the folks who were actually there and involved, is that the folks at LEC did not force SOE to make the changes to the game that has caused the game to be in the pathertic state it is currently in. It was the folks from SOE that convinced the folks at LEC that the changes would make the game better and increase the subscription numbers. SOE's primary function is to make MMORPGs, LEC's function is a publisher/developer of single player games. The folks at SOE were supposed to be experts in their field. As for KotOR 2, had the folks at Obsidian not released some of the design docs for the content that was cut, nobody would think KotOR 2 was anything more than a game that wasn't as good as the first one. It was a complete game, one that would have been much better had what was cut been included, but it wasn't shipped as an incomplete or broken product. Content is cut all the time to make release dates, or because of budget constraints. Obsidian set about building a game that required a much larger budget than they had, so things had to be cut. They didn't seem to upset about it, considering they tried to get LEC to hire them to make KotOR 3. They are very open to admitting they made a bunch of mistakes while developing KotOR 2, and claim to have learned from the experience.
interesting but the tidal wave of threads that blame soe and when people try to say something about it say that LA is only responsible for like signing the paycheques. Its all over these forums and all of a sudden there is a shift? Its funny that but these forums dont reflect that any blame is placed on them. IN fact the first time I said to people "hey you guys buy LA's stuff" and they had something to do with it I was shouted down. What people say is not reflecting that anyone will even slightly acknowledge it unless some pushing is done. Then and only then wil people begrudglingly admit that LA played a "small part" usualy tiny infintesimal when its their money, they IP and ultimately their game that they still sell in their boxes on their website. Now people seem to not have a problem with "forgiving" LEC, bioware for the kotor screw up but they wont give a dime to sony. Now sony has openly admitted even the smedley guy that they went to far and that they wont be doing that again. I have seen people openly deny that Sony apologized even though they have. Somehow everyone can find it in their hearts to forgive LA and bioware, but wont give the same consideration to sony. Yet as we speak sony is putting things into the game (that LA lets them) to make it better. Things work. Somehow though the fact that there is no classic CU server is of course only sony's fault. The entire point of what is being said around here is what would it take to get some people back. Everyone points to sony alone not LA the guy who owns the thing and pays the bills. Somehow its only sony's decision to upt in CU servers and LA has no say over it? Its LA's money and LA"s game. If the changes that people seem to want (rollback servers) are not forthcoming then 50% of the reason (the word yes) would ahve to come from LA along with the funding and manpower, but its not forthcoming, but somehow the lack of these servers is just a sony thing. When I see some threads pulling LA apart the way people dismantle sony then maybe I will believe that people actualy place some reasonable amount of blame on LA as they should until then this forums shouds "i hate sony" and nothing more and its pretty much misplaced and should have like its own forum under sony or something and that was the point of what was said about a page or so back.
In other words you are angry about something that has happened in other threads and are carrying that grudge here. Why does it matter to you what people say about SONY? why does it all get you so upset that you can't let it go? No one is 'shouting anyone down, " nor can anyone "shout anyone down" on a forum. What areyou talking about. We are all just typing here. Why take it all so personally. YOU are NOT SONY, are you? I am certainly not LEC, and I could care less what people say about it. I care only about the truth and evidence, and have hope that the debacle will not be repeated. I merely share the evidence I have seen over the years, and discount the speculative as it should be discounted, andwhen someone brings forth pattern of behavior "evidence," which is questionable at best, I show how SOE is guilty of it's own pattern of bahavior in all their games, and show how it has even led to making their good games unsuccessful. I don't get upset, angry, or shout, I merely exchange reasons for reasons, and if someone ever shows me better reasons than mine, I'll change my opinion on a dime. All you have shared is the same tired nonsense I have seen before, and gotten all upset about it when I disagree with you (as usual).
I'm not angry what makes you think that? or is this another attempt at changing the subject? usualy when people infer about another person its cause they are starting to not want to deal with the issue so just take my word for it and realize i'm not angry. I pointed out that this "i hate swg forum" is in fact an "i hate SOE" forum because I have not seen since my time posting here one single thread being angry at LA. I'm angry at neither I actually enjoy the present rendition of SWG and am labelled a "fanboi" so technically I like LA and SOE. What I want to know is why no one hammers away at LA like they do at SOE. The answers I get is a wishy washy reply like you blame them a tiny bit but not much at all realll cause its mostly SOE's fault and LA is being held captive and is somehow a vitcim of SOE cause they had them by the "short and curly" and has like no say in anything and and and and.. soooo yeah "we never said it was all SOE's fault"
they hammer away at SOE because it is mostly SOE's fault -- at least all available evidence shows that, and they follow through on that.
I have said time and again it is partially LA's fault, and they SHOULD NOT have approved of anything they did approve of, but I also can see the position that SOE put them in -- and you should too. At every step of the game, LA had two choices: trust SOE or shut down the game. To me, that's being held by the short and curlies. Not to you, fine.
Sorry the vast majority including myself disagree with you on this (as evidenced by your complaining about how people speak about SOE on these forums), and you haven't presented a convincing case for your position.
they hammer away at SOE because it is mostly SOE's fault -- at least all available evidence shows that, and they follow through on that.
I have said time and again it is partially LA's fault, and they SHOULD NOT have approved of anything they did approve of, but I also can see the position that SOE put them in -- and you should too. At every step of the game, LA had two choices: trust SOE or shut down the game. To me, that's being held by the short and curlies. Not to you, fine. Sorry the vast majority including myself disagree with you on this (as evidenced by your complaining about how people speak about SOE on these forums), and you haven't presented a convincing case for your position.
Actually not sure how you come up with "the vast majority" of anything. How many people actualy post to this forum? and how many people in this thread have said the opposite to what you are just saying now?
As for the case its been amply presented the fact that you wont accept it is another issue. I haven't actualy seen anyone answer the awekward questions other then "they admit their mistakes" and "wont do it again" as to why LA is allowing what is going on to happen and has done so more then once.
*tries really hard not to mention the clone wars film created by their other entertainment section which is god aweful low budget garbage*
Originally posted by ummax Originally posted by Fishermage they hammer away at SOE because it is mostly SOE's fault -- at least all available evidence shows that, and they follow through on that.
I have said time and again it is partially LA's fault, and they SHOULD NOT have approved of anything they did approve of, but I also can see the position that SOE put them in -- and you should too. At every step of the game, LA had two choices: trust SOE or shut down the game. To me, that's being held by the short and curlies. Not to you, fine. Sorry the vast majority including myself disagree with you on this (as evidenced by your complaining about how people speak about SOE on these forums), and you haven't presented a convincing case for your position.
Actually not sure how you come up with "the vast majority" of anything. How many people actualy post to this forum? and how many people in this thread have said the opposite to what you are just saying now?
I am merely going along with what YOU said. YOU are the one upset by the tone of this forum. I was merely conceding with you on that point, and answering in kind.
Now, are you ready to actually present any more evidence for your position?
Obsidion made a pretty dog gone good game. Great storyline etc. The MoTB expansion was one of the best I have played.
KOTOR2 was going great also until it was pushed out the door. They made a huge improvement over the original KOTOR(more class options/tradeskills/etc).
You are pointing fingers at a company unfairly methinks.
The guy, that was in charge of licensing at LA, had a reputation of making contracters push things out the door on launch date...even if they werent ready.
I wish I had a link to the interview with him that says as much.
Basically he states "they signed to have it done by such and such time...we expect them to meet it.".
And from playing MMOs you should know...sometimes things just arent ready for whatever reason.
But as always...the total blame goes to SOE. Yet the all too familiar story detailing the workings of LA go unheeded.
Fish...I expect that out of most the folks on these forums...not you bro. Open your eyes.
What I am saying is the things people are bringing up are NOT proving their points -- but the statements we have from all parties involved shows that the NGE was SOE's fault and that LEC should never have trusted SOE.
Once again to bring up GOOD GAMES that the company makes proves nothing -- everyone bad does something good. I am merely poking holes in people who try and use what happened to KOTOR 2 as any evidence to what happened with SWG.
MY point is that all speculative, oustide evidence, all pattern of nehavior evidence cancels itself out, as I have shown, and all we are left with are the actual evidence WE HAVE -- which clearly shows that SOE is to blame for the NGE, and LA never should have let SOE do it.
That places most blame on SOE, or at least it should and would in any business relationship.
KotOR 2 shipped in the shape it did because Obsidian blew through the (limited) budget and LEC wasn't willing to pay more. Considering the president of Obsidian posted on their forums that he was actively trying to get LEC to hire them to make KotOR 3, I don't think they had all that bad of an experience with the supposed "Iron Fist of Lucas". For a guy who is supposed to be a control freak over the Star Wars IP, the Neck seems to be very laid back about the EU stuff (he claims to not read any of the books, because he has people he employs to keep track of that stuff).
NwN 2 is a good game now, but that wasn't the case when it was released. When it was released it had several issues that made it almost unplayable. Using KotOR 2 as some sort of proof that LEC caused the problems with SWG is laughable.
so you want to admit that LA would not pay for a better quality product? and then say its not proof of the fact that they are willing to put out shabby stuff? They could have cancelled it and not shipped at all but that is what they did. They shipped a broken product and sold it to peple for money , but somehow LA has no blame in what goes on in any of its games? Why have they not pulled the plug on SWG?
that also makes no sense please elaborate.
Who has claimed that LEC has no blame for the shape SWG is currently in? I've yet to see anyone make that claim, except for people like yourself who are claiming that people are making the claim. I've also not seen anyone make the claim that LEC hasn't put out products that were complete crap. LEC has been focused on poor quality Star Wars games for years. When they hire a quality developer to make games for them, they end up with quality games (KotOR, the Jedi Knight/Dark Forces games, Empire at War, etc.). When they hire poor quality developers to make games for them, we end up with stuff like the NGE. When they develop their own games, they are very much hit and miss (mostly miss for the last several years).
As for why LEC hasn't shut down SWG, I honestly have no clue. I would assume they mistakenly believe that keeping SWG live is having some sort of positive effect, as opposed to damaging the potential viablility of a future MMO using the IP. What we do know, from the folks who were actually there and involved, is that the folks at LEC did not force SOE to make the changes to the game that has caused the game to be in the pathertic state it is currently in. It was the folks from SOE that convinced the folks at LEC that the changes would make the game better and increase the subscription numbers. SOE's primary function is to make MMORPGs, LEC's function is a publisher/developer of single player games. The folks at SOE were supposed to be experts in their field.
As for KotOR 2, had the folks at Obsidian not released some of the design docs for the content that was cut, nobody would think KotOR 2 was anything more than a game that wasn't as good as the first one. It was a complete game, one that would have been much better had what was cut been included, but it wasn't shipped as an incomplete or broken product. Content is cut all the time to make release dates, or because of budget constraints. Obsidian set about building a game that required a much larger budget than they had, so things had to be cut. They didn't seem to upset about it, considering they tried to get LEC to hire them to make KotOR 3. They are very open to admitting they made a bunch of mistakes while developing KotOR 2, and claim to have learned from the experience.
interesting but the tidal wave of threads that blame soe and when people try to say something about it say that LA is only responsible for like signing the paycheques. Its all over these forums and all of a sudden there is a shift?
Its funny that but these forums dont reflect that any blame is placed on them. IN fact the first time I said to people "hey you guys buy LA's stuff" and they had something to do with it I was shouted down. What people say is not reflecting that anyone will even slightly acknowledge it unless some pushing is done. Then and only then wil people begrudglingly admit that LA played a "small part" usualy tiny infintesimal when its their money, they IP and ultimately their game that they still sell in their boxes on their website.
Now people seem to not have a problem with "forgiving" LEC, bioware for the kotor screw up but they wont give a dime to sony. Now sony has openly admitted even the smedley guy that they went to far and that they wont be doing that again. I have seen people openly deny that Sony apologized even though they have. Somehow everyone can find it in their hearts to forgive LA and bioware, but wont give the same consideration to sony. Yet as we speak sony is putting things into the game (that LA lets them) to make it better. Things work.
Somehow though the fact that there is no classic CU server is of course only sony's fault. The entire point of what is being said around here is what would it take to get some people back. Everyone points to sony alone not LA the guy who owns the thing and pays the bills. Somehow its only sony's decision to upt in CU servers and LA has no say over it? Its LA's money and LA"s game. If the changes that people seem to want (rollback servers) are not forthcoming then 50% of the reason (the word yes) would ahve to come from LA along with the funding and manpower, but its not forthcoming, but somehow the lack of these servers is just a sony thing.
When I see some threads pulling LA apart the way people dismantle sony then maybe I will believe that people actualy place some reasonable amount of blame on LA as they should until then this forums shouds "i hate sony" and nothing more and its pretty much misplaced and should have like its own forum under sony or something and that was the point of what was said about a page or so back.
Wait until Bioware's MMO is officially announced. There will be plenty of blame for SWG directed towards LEC.
Most of the blame is directed at SOE because SOE deserves most of the blame. Both the CU and the NGE, the two worst things to happent to SWG and the players, were both concieved and designed by SOE. They weren't imposed on the game by LEC. LEC should have said "No". The fact that LEC had no previous experience with MMOs prior to SWG mitigates their culpability somewhat. They had no reason to not trust the folks they thought were experts in the MMO field.
Nobody knows the real reason why there is no classic server. People have made guesses, but there has been no actual information as to why. The funding issue is based on subscription numbers. The sub numbers are very low, so the game isn't seeing a major investment from either SOE or LEC. Any funds dedicated to setting up a classic server would be from the current development budget. It would be a major waste of money to set up a classic server, which would attract more of the current players away from the NGE game, as opposed to drawing back former players. They are much better served by continuing to use the dev budget to string along the dwindling current players until the game is no longer financially viable. They can always cut the budget further to make up for the ever decreasing sub numbers.
SOE has learned very little from the NGE debacle. They have still made unwanted changes to SWG that has resulted in losing more subscribers. For all their blame shifting towards poor communication, the current dev team won't even let the playerbase know where the game is headed, beyond what is being worked on at that moment. EQ2 is still seeing changed that don't take into account what the playerbase wants. Hell, after the Smed claiming there would be no NGE like changes to Vanguard, and claiming that SOE was interested in Vanguard because it was a "hardcore" game, development has been focused on making it easier and more accessible (ie., more like WoW) since the SOE takeover. The only games that have escaped similar changes is Planetside and MxO, and that is only because nobody plays them and so there are no resources dedicated to making sucxh changes.
LEC's blame for SWG's current state is due to ignorance and stupidity. They trusted folks (SOE) who shouldn't have been trusted. They did so because they thought the folks at SOE knew what they were doing. Two former SOE developers (Jeff Freeman and Dan Rubenfield) have admitted that the folks at SOE knew the NGE would likely cause most of the existing players to quit the game. They pushed for the changes anyway becuase they thought the old playerbase would be replaced with a new one. That was before the changes were proposed to LEC for approval. The folks at SOE told the folks at LEC that the changes would make the game better, and would increase the subscriber base. The folks at SOE knew what they were proposing was unethical, yet they pushed for it anyway. It was SOE employees that were promoting features in the ToOW expansion that they knew were not going to be part of the game a few weeks later. SOE gets most of the blame because they deserve it.
People are looking forward to the BioWare MMO because BioWare has yet to do anything to prove that they are unethical douche bags like the folks at SOE have. People aren't looking forward to BioWare's MMO because of any LEC involvement, aside from the Star Wars IP itself. LEC was burned by the changes to SWG (they lost a bunch of money), so I doubt they will be very open to somone proposing similar changes to BioWare's MMO. The main draw of BioWare's MMO will be that it is a Star Wars MMO that lacks SOE involvement.
they hammer away at SOE because it is mostly SOE's fault -- at least all available evidence shows that, and they follow through on that.
I have said time and again it is partially LA's fault, and they SHOULD NOT have approved of anything they did approve of, but I also can see the position that SOE put them in -- and you should too. At every step of the game, LA had two choices: trust SOE or shut down the game. To me, that's being held by the short and curlies. Not to you, fine.
Sorry the vast majority including myself disagree with you on this (as evidenced by your complaining about how people speak about SOE on these forums), and you haven't presented a convincing case for your position.
Actually not sure how you come up with "the vast majority" of anything. How many people actualy post to this forum? and how many people in this thread have said the opposite to what you are just saying now?
I am merely going along with what YOU said. YOU are the one upset by the tone of this forum. I was merely conceding with you on that point, and answering in kind.
Now, are you ready to actually present any more evidence for your position?
Why do you talk like this? no i'm not "ready" to present any "evidence on my position" lol your honour I presented my "case to you " your honour and the jury is out and has given its verdict long ago which is your honour that LA takes a fair share of the blame in the rest of the world. The fact your honour that this verdict is as it is.. will not change your honour..
Obsidion made a pretty dog gone good game. Great storyline etc. The MoTB expansion was one of the best I have played.
KOTOR2 was going great also until it was pushed out the door. They made a huge improvement over the original KOTOR(more class options/tradeskills/etc).
You are pointing fingers at a company unfairly methinks.
The guy, that was in charge of licensing at LA, had a reputation of making contracters push things out the door on launch date...even if they werent ready.
I wish I had a link to the interview with him that says as much.
Basically he states "they signed to have it done by such and such time...we expect them to meet it.".
And from playing MMOs you should know...sometimes things just arent ready for whatever reason.
But as always...the total blame goes to SOE. Yet the all too familiar story detailing the workings of LA go unheeded.
Fish...I expect that out of most the folks on these forums...not you bro. Open your eyes.
What I am saying is the things people are bringing up are NOT proving their points -- but the statements we have from all parties involved shows that the NGE was SOE's fault and that LEC should never have trusted SOE.
Once again to bring up GOOD GAMES that the company makes proves nothing -- everyone bad does something good. I am merely poking holes in people who try and use what happened to KOTOR 2 as any evidence to what happened with SWG.
MY point is that all speculative, oustide evidence, all pattern of nehavior evidence cancels itself out, as I have shown, and all we are left with are the actual evidence WE HAVE -- which clearly shows that SOE is to blame for the NGE, and LA never should have let SOE do it.
That places most blame on SOE, or at least it should and would in any business relationship.
KotOR 2 shipped in the shape it did because Obsidian blew through the (limited) budget and LEC wasn't willing to pay more. Considering the president of Obsidian posted on their forums that he was actively trying to get LEC to hire them to make KotOR 3, I don't think they had all that bad of an experience with the supposed "Iron Fist of Lucas". For a guy who is supposed to be a control freak over the Star Wars IP, the Neck seems to be very laid back about the EU stuff (he claims to not read any of the books, because he has people he employs to keep track of that stuff).
NwN 2 is a good game now, but that wasn't the case when it was released. When it was released it had several issues that made it almost unplayable. Using KotOR 2 as some sort of proof that LEC caused the problems with SWG is laughable.
so you want to admit that LA would not pay for a better quality product? and then say its not proof of the fact that they are willing to put out shabby stuff? They could have cancelled it and not shipped at all but that is what they did. They shipped a broken product and sold it to peple for money , but somehow LA has no blame in what goes on in any of its games? Why have they not pulled the plug on SWG?
that also makes no sense please elaborate.
Who has claimed that LEC has no blame for the shape SWG is currently in? I've yet to see anyone make that claim, except for people like yourself who are claiming that people are making the claim. I've also not seen anyone make the claim that LEC hasn't put out products that were complete crap. LEC has been focused on poor quality Star Wars games for years. When they hire a quality developer to make games for them, they end up with quality games (KotOR, the Jedi Knight/Dark Forces games, Empire at War, etc.). When they hire poor quality developers to make games for them, we end up with stuff like the NGE. When they develop their own games, they are very much hit and miss (mostly miss for the last several years).
As for why LEC hasn't shut down SWG, I honestly have no clue. I would assume they mistakenly believe that keeping SWG live is having some sort of positive effect, as opposed to damaging the potential viablility of a future MMO using the IP. What we do know, from the folks who were actually there and involved, is that the folks at LEC did not force SOE to make the changes to the game that has caused the game to be in the pathertic state it is currently in. It was the folks from SOE that convinced the folks at LEC that the changes would make the game better and increase the subscription numbers. SOE's primary function is to make MMORPGs, LEC's function is a publisher/developer of single player games. The folks at SOE were supposed to be experts in their field.
As for KotOR 2, had the folks at Obsidian not released some of the design docs for the content that was cut, nobody would think KotOR 2 was anything more than a game that wasn't as good as the first one. It was a complete game, one that would have been much better had what was cut been included, but it wasn't shipped as an incomplete or broken product. Content is cut all the time to make release dates, or because of budget constraints. Obsidian set about building a game that required a much larger budget than they had, so things had to be cut. They didn't seem to upset about it, considering they tried to get LEC to hire them to make KotOR 3. They are very open to admitting they made a bunch of mistakes while developing KotOR 2, and claim to have learned from the experience.
interesting but the tidal wave of threads that blame soe and when people try to say something about it say that LA is only responsible for like signing the paycheques. Its all over these forums and all of a sudden there is a shift?
Its funny that but these forums dont reflect that any blame is placed on them. IN fact the first time I said to people "hey you guys buy LA's stuff" and they had something to do with it I was shouted down. What people say is not reflecting that anyone will even slightly acknowledge it unless some pushing is done. Then and only then wil people begrudglingly admit that LA played a "small part" usualy tiny infintesimal when its their money, they IP and ultimately their game that they still sell in their boxes on their website.
Now people seem to not have a problem with "forgiving" LEC, bioware for the kotor screw up but they wont give a dime to sony. Now sony has openly admitted even the smedley guy that they went to far and that they wont be doing that again. I have seen people openly deny that Sony apologized even though they have. Somehow everyone can find it in their hearts to forgive LA and bioware, but wont give the same consideration to sony. Yet as we speak sony is putting things into the game (that LA lets them) to make it better. Things work.
Somehow though the fact that there is no classic CU server is of course only sony's fault. The entire point of what is being said around here is what would it take to get some people back. Everyone points to sony alone not LA the guy who owns the thing and pays the bills. Somehow its only sony's decision to upt in CU servers and LA has no say over it? Its LA's money and LA"s game. If the changes that people seem to want (rollback servers) are not forthcoming then 50% of the reason (the word yes) would ahve to come from LA along with the funding and manpower, but its not forthcoming, but somehow the lack of these servers is just a sony thing.
When I see some threads pulling LA apart the way people dismantle sony then maybe I will believe that people actualy place some reasonable amount of blame on LA as they should until then this forums shouds "i hate sony" and nothing more and its pretty much misplaced and should have like its own forum under sony or something and that was the point of what was said about a page or so back.
Wait until Bioware's MMO is officially announced. There will be plenty of blame for SWG directed towards LEC.
Most of the blame is directed at SOE because SOE deserves most of the blame. Both the CU and the NGE, the two worst things to happent to SWG and the players, were both concieved and designed by SOE. They weren't imposed on the game by LEC. LEC should have said "No". The fact that LEC had no previous experience with MMOs prior to SWG mitigates their culpability somewhat. They had no reason to not trust the folks they thought were experts in the MMO field.
Nobody knows the real reason why there is no classic server. People have made guesses, but there has been no actual information as to why. The funding issue is based on subscription numbers. The sub numbers are very low, so the game isn't seeing a major investment from either SOE or LEC. Any funds dedicated to setting up a classic server would be from the current development budget. It would be a major waste of money to set up a classic server, which would attract more of the current players away from the NGE game, as opposed to drawing back former players. They are much better served by continuing to use the dev budget to string along the dwindling current players until the game is no longer financially viable. They can always cut the budget further to make up for the ever decreasing sub numbers.
SOE has learned very little from the NGE debacle. They have still made unwanted changes to SWG that has resulted in losing more subscribers. For all their blame shifting towards poor communication, the current dev team won't even let the playerbase know where the game is headed, beyond what is being worked on at that moment. EQ2 is still seeing changed that don't take into account what the playerbase wants. Hell, after the Smed claiming there would be no NGE like changes to Vanguard, and claiming that SOE was interested in Vanguard because it was a "hardcore" game, development has been focused on making it easier and more accessible (ie., more like WoW) since the SOE takeover. The only games that have escaped similar changes is Planetside and MxO, and that is only because nobody plays them and so there are no resources dedicated to making sucxh changes.
LEC's blame for SWG's current state is due to ignorance and stupidity. They trusted folks (SOE) who shouldn't have been trusted. They did so because they thought the folks at SOE knew what they were doing. Two former SOE developers (Jeff Freeman and Dan Rubenfield) have admitted that the folks at SOE knew the NGE would likely cause most of the existing players to quit the game. They pushed for the changes anyway becuase they thought the old playerbase would be replaced with a new one. That was before the changes were proposed to LEC for approval. The folks at SOE told the folks at LEC that the changes would make the game better, and would increase the subscriber base. The folks at SOE knew what they were proposing was unethical, yet they pushed for it anyway. It was SOE employees that were promoting features in the ToOW expansion that they knew were not going to be part of the game a few weeks later. SOE gets most of the blame because they deserve it.
People are looking forward to the BioWare MMO because BioWare has yet to do anything to prove that they are unethical douche bags like the folks at SOE have. People aren't looking forward to BioWare's MMO because of any LEC involvement, aside from the Star Wars IP itself. LEC was burned by the changes to SWG (they lost a bunch of money), so I doubt they will be very open to somone proposing similar changes to BioWare's MMO. The main draw of BioWare's MMO will be that it is a Star Wars MMO that lacks SOE involvement.
bioware is now owned by EA who holds the same colourful description that you just gave to sony. So basically your saying that the "blame" for lucas arts screws up will come one day but not today?
Originally posted by ummax Originally posted by Fishermage
Originally posted by ummax
Originally posted by Fishermage
they hammer away at SOE because it is mostly SOE's fault -- at least all available evidence shows that, and they follow through on that.
I have said time and again it is partially LA's fault, and they SHOULD NOT have approved of anything they did approve of, but I also can see the position that SOE put them in -- and you should too. At every step of the game, LA had two choices: trust SOE or shut down the game. To me, that's being held by the short and curlies. Not to you, fine. Sorry the vast majority including myself disagree with you on this (as evidenced by your complaining about how people speak about SOE on these forums), and you haven't presented a convincing case for your position.
Actually not sure how you come up with "the vast majority" of anything. How many people actualy post to this forum? and how many people in this thread have said the opposite to what you are just saying now? I am merely going along with what YOU said. YOU are the one upset by the tone of this forum. I was merely conceding with you on that point, and answering in kind.
Now, are you ready to actually present any more evidence for your position?
Why do you talk like this? no i'm not "ready" to present any "evidence on my position" lol your honour I presented my "case to you " your honour and the jury is out and has given its verdict long ago which is your honour that LA takes a fair share of the blame in the rest of the world. The fact your honour that this verdict is as it is.. will not change your honour..
In other words since you are out of evidence, and have no reasons to back up your position, you will resort to ridicule. Thank you for your time.
they hammer away at SOE because it is mostly SOE's fault -- at least all available evidence shows that, and they follow through on that.
I have said time and again it is partially LA's fault, and they SHOULD NOT have approved of anything they did approve of, but I also can see the position that SOE put them in -- and you should too. At every step of the game, LA had two choices: trust SOE or shut down the game. To me, that's being held by the short and curlies. Not to you, fine.
Sorry the vast majority including myself disagree with you on this (as evidenced by your complaining about how people speak about SOE on these forums), and you haven't presented a convincing case for your position.
Actually not sure how you come up with "the vast majority" of anything. How many people actualy post to this forum? and how many people in this thread have said the opposite to what you are just saying now?
I am merely going along with what YOU said. YOU are the one upset by the tone of this forum. I was merely conceding with you on that point, and answering in kind.
Now, are you ready to actually present any more evidence for your position?
Why do you talk like this? no i'm not "ready" to present any "evidence on my position" lol your honour I presented my "case to you " your honour and the jury is out and has given its verdict long ago which is your honour that LA takes a fair share of the blame in the rest of the world. The fact your honour that this verdict is as it is.. will not change your honour..
In other words since you are out of evidence, and have no reasons to back up your position, you will resort to ridicule. Thank you for your time.
okay? are we starting this again?
I have given the "evidence" and you wont accept it and digest it and despite the evidence you refuse to look at it. There is nothing more I can do. You want more of what? What more do you need? LA owns the game LA holds the means to pull the plug on the game whenever it wants. LA like sony has lawyers if they dont like what someone is doing with their money and feel they failed to deliver on a product they will do one of several things
a) ask for their mone back so they can go elsehwere
b) ask them to do it over again
c) sue them for what is released
none of these has been done. What more do you want
further to that they have like JUST RECENTLY given sony an IP renewal and have decided to CONTINUE to pay them money instead of say giving SWG to say Bioware (sounds good to me everyone likes them right now..) and asking them to maintain it. NOTHING like this has happened your just ignoring what is being said. So its over we are into "no you didn't' " yes you did" pissing contest. The information is there read it agree with it or dont. That is all there is to this and nothing more. This is just a board and nothing more so I guess you dont agree with this information that's your choice and that is all there is too it ..
bioware is now owned by EA who holds the same colourful description that you just gave to sony. So basically your saying that the "blame" for lucas arts screws up will come one day but not today?
SWG's history is going to be brought up as soon as BioWare's MMO is officially announced. A lot more people will bring up LEC's portion of the blame for SWG's current state. LEC's official position on SWG is "Talk to SOE about it". There will be more than a few LEC folks promoting BioWare's MMO, so LEC will have a public face, and as such, will see much of the backlash towards SWG that they have avoided so far. Everything that went wrong with SWG will be brought up.
EA is nowhere near as Bad as SOE when it comes to screwing their customers. EA is very bad about screwing the developers it buys up, but they don't run around insulting the customers they upset by doing so afterwards, or try to blaim their customers for it. EA is also much more likely to shut down an MMO that is doing poorly, as opposed to screwing over their customers by revamping the game out from under them. SWG wouldn't be the lightning rod it currently is if the game was shut down instead of revamped. Shutting SWG down would have been a better business decision, and a much better PR decision, than the revamp was.
Originally posted by ummax Originally posted by Fishermage
Originally posted by ummax
Originally posted by Fishermage
Originally posted by ummax Originally posted by Fishermage
they hammer away at SOE because it is mostly SOE's fault -- at least all available evidence shows that, and they follow through on that.
I have said time and again it is partially LA's fault, and they SHOULD NOT have approved of anything they did approve of, but I also can see the position that SOE put them in -- and you should too. At every step of the game, LA had two choices: trust SOE or shut down the game. To me, that's being held by the short and curlies. Not to you, fine. Sorry the vast majority including myself disagree with you on this (as evidenced by your complaining about how people speak about SOE on these forums), and you haven't presented a convincing case for your position.
Actually not sure how you come up with "the vast majority" of anything. How many people actualy post to this forum? and how many people in this thread have said the opposite to what you are just saying now?
I am merely going along with what YOU said. YOU are the one upset by the tone of this forum. I was merely conceding with you on that point, and answering in kind.
Now, are you ready to actually present any more evidence for your position?
Why do you talk like this? no i'm not "ready" to present any "evidence on my position" lol your honour I presented my "case to you " your honour and the jury is out and has given its verdict long ago which is your honour that LA takes a fair share of the blame in the rest of the world. The fact your honour that this verdict is as it is.. will not change your honour.. In other words since you are out of evidence, and have no reasons to back up your position, you will resort to ridicule. Thank you for your time.
okay? are we starting this again? I have given the "evidence" and you wont accept it and digest it and despite the evidence you refuse to look at it. There is nothing more I can do. You want more of what? What more do you need? LA owns the game LA holds the means to pull the plug on the game whenever it wants. LA like sony has lawyers if they dont like what someone is doing with their money and feel they failed to deliver on a product they will do one of several things a) ask for their mone back so they can go elsehwere b) ask them to do it over again c) sue them for what is released none of these has been done. What more do you want further to that they have like JUST RECENTLY given sony an IP renewal and have decided to CONTINUE to pay them money instead of say giving SWG to say Bioware (sounds good to me everyone likes them right now..) and asking them to maintain it. NOTHING like this has happened your just ignoring what is being said. So its over we are into "no you didn't' " yes you did" pissing contest. The information is there read it agree with it or dont. That is all there is to this and nothing more. This is just a board and nothing more so I guess you dont agree with this information that's your choice and that is all there is too it ..
here we go again. First of all, you are just making this up and have no proof. Second, let us assume you are right, and they just 'renewed," what is LA's choice? Either to shut the game down, and make YOU and people who still enjoy the game very unhappy, or continue to trust SONY?
bioware is now owned by EA who holds the same colourful description that you just gave to sony. So basically your saying that the "blame" for lucas arts screws up will come one day but not today?
SWG's history is going to be brought up as soon as BioWare's MMO is officially announced. A lot more people will bring up LEC's portion of the blame for SWG's current state. LEC's official position on SWG is "Talk to SOE about it". There will be more than a few LEC folks promoting BioWare's MMO, so LEC will have a public face, and as such, will see much of the backlash towards SWG that they have avoided so far. Everything that went wrong with SWG will be brought up.
EA is nowhere near as Bad as SOE when it comes to screwing their customers. EA is very bad about screwing the developers it buys up, but they don't run around insulting the customers they upset by doing so afterwards, or try to blaim their customers for it. EA is also much more likely to shut down an MMO that is doing poorly, as opposed to screwing over their customers by revamping the game out from under them. SWG wouldn't be the lightning rod it currently is if the game was shut down instead of revamped. Shutting SWG down would have been a better business decision, and a much better PR decision, than the revamp was.
Have you seen the recent EA land mess? thats almost identical in every way to SWG.
They decided they were going to try to compete with second life. Did a revamp with the same customers in place, but they did something that is worse in my opinion (which I hope is take just as that). After taking people's money they about 8 montsh maybe at tops shut the entire EA land project down. They refunded some money but not all and gave free pogo time to the subscribers. The subscriber base like the SWG subscriber base was not tha large 200k if your lucky. So they attempted to screw a minority in order to get a majority. It failed miserabely worse and ended up in the entire thing being shut down. Customers in many cases lots a bundle of money as it was using a the same model as second life and so people were treating it like second life. EA land just after converting this thing to a basic microtransaction system with a two tier membership system and stuff shut the doors in the customers faces. That's just recent as in well 30 days maybe (i can't remember july first or august first was the shut down date).
SWG's history is going to be brought up as soon as BioWare's MMO is officially announced. A lot more people will bring up LEC's portion of the blame for SWG's current state. LEC's official position on SWG is "Talk to SOE about it". There will be more than a few LEC folks promoting BioWare's MMO, so LEC will have a public face, and as such, will see much of the backlash towards SWG that they have avoided so far. Everything that went wrong with SWG will be brought up. EA is nowhere near as Bad as SOE when it comes to screwing their customers. EA is very bad about screwing the developers it buys up, but they don't run around insulting the customers they upset by doing so afterwards, or try to blaim their customers for it. EA is also much more likely to shut down an MMO that is doing poorly, as opposed to screwing over their customers by revamping the game out from under them. SWG wouldn't be the lightning rod it currently is if the game was shut down instead of revamped. Shutting SWG down would have been a better business decision, and a much better PR decision, than the revamp was.
lets expand on that a little as well, if EA had screwed with their client base as SOE have they wouldn't be the largest developer/publisher in gaming history. SOE are the only Sony company that can't lay claim to being a world beater in any category, other than their piss poor customer relations but then that's not something they can shout about.
Lets get a bit of perspective here, the Sony brand overall is at an all time low but the PS3 is still going toe to toe with the 360, Sony TV's are still some of the best available, their OCD displays are cutting edge, their movie business is doing reasonably well and yet huddled over in the corner there's their mmo division with it's "flagship" title being kicked from pillar to post by any number of mmo's out there by developers with funding totals that could be spent at a Sony luncheon. I sure as shit wouldn't fancy being Smed at any high level exec meeting he may have to attend.
...The spread of secondary and latterly of tertiary education has created a large population of people, often with well developed literary and scholarly tastes, who have been educated far beyond their capacity to undertake analytical thought.
SWG's history is going to be brought up as soon as BioWare's MMO is officially announced. A lot more people will bring up LEC's portion of the blame for SWG's current state. LEC's official position on SWG is "Talk to SOE about it". There will be more than a few LEC folks promoting BioWare's MMO, so LEC will have a public face, and as such, will see much of the backlash towards SWG that they have avoided so far. Everything that went wrong with SWG will be brought up. EA is nowhere near as Bad as SOE when it comes to screwing their customers. EA is very bad about screwing the developers it buys up, but they don't run around insulting the customers they upset by doing so afterwards, or try to blaim their customers for it. EA is also much more likely to shut down an MMO that is doing poorly, as opposed to screwing over their customers by revamping the game out from under them. SWG wouldn't be the lightning rod it currently is if the game was shut down instead of revamped. Shutting SWG down would have been a better business decision, and a much better PR decision, than the revamp was.
lets expand on that a little as well, if EA had screwed with their client base as SOE have they wouldn't be the largest developer/publisher in gaming history. SOE are the only Sony company that can't lay claim to being a world beater in any category, other than their piss poor customer relations but then that's not something they can shout about.
Lets get a bit of perspective here, the Sony brand overall is at an all time low but the PS3 is still going toe to toe with the 360, Sony TV's are still some of the best available, their OCD displays are cutting edge, their movie business is doing reasonably well and yet huddled over in the corner there's their mmo division with it's "flagship" title being kicked from pillar to post by any number of mmo's out there by developers with funding totals that could be spent at a Sony luncheon. I sure as shit wouldn't fancy being Smed at any high level exec meeting he may have to attend.
EA customer here.. go read the boards..(what few of them exist)
Been screwed with more by EA then by sony. (for now)
Here is my criteria for gaming companies these days considering what happens with them
1) are they capable of keeping my credit card info safe..
2) thats it because that is the only thing that with all the crappy customer support I have received from all of them is about all that I can expect so go read #1.. the rest is the same in every company I have had to do business with for a game they have that I want to play.
lets expand on that a little as well, if EA had screwed with their client base as SOE have they wouldn't be the largest developer/publisher in gaming history. SOE are the only Sony company that can't lay claim to being a world beater in any category, other than their piss poor customer relations but then that's not something they can shout about. Lets get a bit of perspective here, the Sony brand overall is at an all time low but the PS3 is still going toe to toe with the 360, Sony TV's are still some of the best available, their OCD displays are cutting edge, their movie business is doing reasonably well and yet huddled over in the corner there's their mmo division with it's "flagship" title being kicked from pillar to post by any number of mmo's out there by developers with funding totals that could be spent at a Sony luncheon. I sure as shit wouldn't fancy being Smed at any high level exec meeting he may have to attend.
EA customer here.. go read the boards..(what few of them exist)
Been screwed with more by EA then by sony. (for now)
Here is my criteria for gaming companies these days considering what happens with them
1) are they capable of keeping my credit card info safe..
2) thats it because that is the only thing that with all the crappy customer support I have received from all of them is about all that I can expect so go read #1.. the rest is the same in every company I have had to do business with for a game they have that I want to play.
I don't buy EA, I don't buy SOE... pretty simple way of dealing with past indescretions really, but that doesn't really have any influence on the fact that EA is the largest dev/publisher the worlds ever seen, they couldn't have got there if they'd gone about business the SOE way, as I said, SOE is the ONLY Sony division I can think of that isn't a world leader within the entire Sony corps umbrella. They've got funding totals to reflect the fact their part of Sony, they've got IP licenses other companies can only dream of and yet they can only maintain an "also ran" status within the industry as a whole.
...The spread of secondary and latterly of tertiary education has created a large population of people, often with well developed literary and scholarly tastes, who have been educated far beyond their capacity to undertake analytical thought.
lets expand on that a little as well, if EA had screwed with their client base as SOE have they wouldn't be the largest developer/publisher in gaming history. SOE are the only Sony company that can't lay claim to being a world beater in any category, other than their piss poor customer relations but then that's not something they can shout about. Lets get a bit of perspective here, the Sony brand overall is at an all time low but the PS3 is still going toe to toe with the 360, Sony TV's are still some of the best available, their OCD displays are cutting edge, their movie business is doing reasonably well and yet huddled over in the corner there's their mmo division with it's "flagship" title being kicked from pillar to post by any number of mmo's out there by developers with funding totals that could be spent at a Sony luncheon. I sure as shit wouldn't fancy being Smed at any high level exec meeting he may have to attend.
EA customer here.. go read the boards..(what few of them exist)
Been screwed with more by EA then by sony. (for now)
Here is my criteria for gaming companies these days considering what happens with them
1) are they capable of keeping my credit card info safe..
2) thats it because that is the only thing that with all the crappy customer support I have received from all of them is about all that I can expect so go read #1.. the rest is the same in every company I have had to do business with for a game they have that I want to play.
I don't buy EA, I don't buy SOE... pretty simple way of dealing with past indescretions really, but that doesn't really have any influence on the fact that EA is the largest dev/publisher the worlds ever seen, they couldn't have got there if they'd gone about business the SOE way, as I said, SOE is the ONLY Sony division I can think of that isn't a world leader within the entire Sony corps umbrella. They've got funding totals to reflect the fact their part of Sony, they've got IP licenses other companies can only dream of and yet they can only maintain an "also ran" status within the industry as a whole.
I play games (i'm beginning to think i'm like the only gamer on these forums actually). They make products I like and so I buy them because I enjoy the social element of online games and for me they present a better entertainment then anything else movies included minus the shenanigans that they all have with revamps.. (i think the only game i ever played that was not revamped was Lineage 2 but they are the ones I wont do business with because of a credit card issue with hacking they had as a result of something that was on their official site .. and i wont go any further then that..) Anyhow sony's gaming branch is just that. Its a volatile market and mmorpg;s are probably the worste not to mention its saturated. They have made a few other nasty investments the blue ray stuff as well not sure how that works but it goes on computers now... and then they did the root kit thing for their cd's. So sony has a history of doing funny things. ON that note however if they have a product I want that no one else has like any normal person I buy it..
bioware is now owned by EA who holds the same colourful description that you just gave to sony. So basically your saying that the "blame" for lucas arts screws up will come one day but not today?
SWG's history is going to be brought up as soon as BioWare's MMO is officially announced. A lot more people will bring up LEC's portion of the blame for SWG's current state. LEC's official position on SWG is "Talk to SOE about it". There will be more than a few LEC folks promoting BioWare's MMO, so LEC will have a public face, and as such, will see much of the backlash towards SWG that they have avoided so far. Everything that went wrong with SWG will be brought up.
EA is nowhere near as Bad as SOE when it comes to screwing their customers. EA is very bad about screwing the developers it buys up, but they don't run around insulting the customers they upset by doing so afterwards, or try to blaim their customers for it. EA is also much more likely to shut down an MMO that is doing poorly, as opposed to screwing over their customers by revamping the game out from under them. SWG wouldn't be the lightning rod it currently is if the game was shut down instead of revamped. Shutting SWG down would have been a better business decision, and a much better PR decision, than the revamp was.
Have you seen the recent EA land mess? thats almost identical in every way to SWG.
They decided they were going to try to compete with second life. Did a revamp with the same customers in place, but they did something that is worse in my opinion (which I hope is take just as that). After taking people's money they about 8 montsh maybe at tops shut the entire EA land project down. They refunded some money but not all and gave free pogo time to the subscribers. The subscriber base like the SWG subscriber base was not tha large 200k if your lucky. So they attempted to screw a minority in order to get a majority. It failed miserabely worse and ended up in the entire thing being shut down. Customers in many cases lots a bundle of money as it was using a the same model as second life and so people were treating it like second life. EA land just after converting this thing to a basic microtransaction system with a two tier membership system and stuff shut the doors in the customers faces. That's just recent as in well 30 days maybe (i can't remember july first or august first was the shut down date).
The Sims Online was under 10K subscribers. EA Land was the same game with a different payment model, plus features add to, not replacing, what was already in the game. EA Land was a free to play RMT game. EA Land wasn't a complete game revamp. EA even (somewhat) compensated their customers, by offering them a $15 discount at the EA Store, or a free month Club Pogo membership. They also annoounced both the EA Land change and the closing of the game, well in advance (the shutdown announcement was made 60 days prior to the actual shutdown date). The whole EA Land concept was an attempt to revitalize the game for the folks who play it, with the hopes of attracting more people. The whole thing was basically the exact opposite of what happened with the NGE.
SOE is still at the bottom where ethics are concerned.
bioware is now owned by EA who holds the same colourful description that you just gave to sony. So basically your saying that the "blame" for lucas arts screws up will come one day but not today?
SWG's history is going to be brought up as soon as BioWare's MMO is officially announced. A lot more people will bring up LEC's portion of the blame for SWG's current state. LEC's official position on SWG is "Talk to SOE about it". There will be more than a few LEC folks promoting BioWare's MMO, so LEC will have a public face, and as such, will see much of the backlash towards SWG that they have avoided so far. Everything that went wrong with SWG will be brought up.
EA is nowhere near as Bad as SOE when it comes to screwing their customers. EA is very bad about screwing the developers it buys up, but they don't run around insulting the customers they upset by doing so afterwards, or try to blaim their customers for it. EA is also much more likely to shut down an MMO that is doing poorly, as opposed to screwing over their customers by revamping the game out from under them. SWG wouldn't be the lightning rod it currently is if the game was shut down instead of revamped. Shutting SWG down would have been a better business decision, and a much better PR decision, than the revamp was.
This post is a joke right? I sure hope it is.
I take it you havent shelled out yearly for Madden games? Or any of the other various sports titles they make a killing off of?
Have to upgrade yearly...and each yr they ship out buggy games with very little additions. Other than team rosters which they could update online...instead they make ya pay 50 per year to get.
My 08 NCAA crashes nearly everytime I play an extended game(20 min quarters). Doesnt happen in any other games...just this one. Not the disk...I exchanged it. Could it be what was explained on the brds? That if you have other EA games saved on the hard disk(Xbox) that it is the problem?
I dont know...didnt bother to find out as dont care to delete all my other saved material. There is no doubt though this game shipped bugged...not to mention the various other things I have encountered since I started playing console games again about 3 yrs ago.
EA is the epitome of the word "crooks". With them holding the exclusive NCAA/NFL licenses though, sports gamers like myself have no choice but to deal with em. At least when I was spending 30 bucks for EQ expansions I felt like I was getting something.
Man this forum is always good for a laugh.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Well now that SOE is part of SCE it must stand out when research is made into their market penetration. I would be disappointed in Sony if someone didn't take a look at SOE's line up, see that SWG has 1% of the subscriber total that WoW has and ask themselves "what the fuck are you boys doing down there?!"
...The spread of secondary and latterly of tertiary education has created a large population of people, often with well developed literary and scholarly tastes, who have been educated far beyond their capacity to undertake analytical thought.
3 Pacific islands, a small tank and a cruise ship....
ok serious stuff now.
i want a classic server
massive marketings campaing (must be a re-release of the game)
everyone gets the first month free after purchase (no credit card required)
first 6 months are at half price ($7.99 roughly per month)
vets get a permanent discount ($7.99 per month instead of $14.99 a month)
the current dev team is fired and a new one brought in
i recon if they did all that i would come back (and with that marketing campaign hopefully plenty of other people) and i think that will last around 6 months before they make some stupid change and screw the play base again.
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds -Solid non level based game -Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
bioware is now owned by EA who holds the same colourful description that you just gave to sony. So basically your saying that the "blame" for lucas arts screws up will come one day but not today?
SWG's history is going to be brought up as soon as BioWare's MMO is officially announced. A lot more people will bring up LEC's portion of the blame for SWG's current state. LEC's official position on SWG is "Talk to SOE about it". There will be more than a few LEC folks promoting BioWare's MMO, so LEC will have a public face, and as such, will see much of the backlash towards SWG that they have avoided so far. Everything that went wrong with SWG will be brought up.
EA is nowhere near as Bad as SOE when it comes to screwing their customers. EA is very bad about screwing the developers it buys up, but they don't run around insulting the customers they upset by doing so afterwards, or try to blaim their customers for it. EA is also much more likely to shut down an MMO that is doing poorly, as opposed to screwing over their customers by revamping the game out from under them. SWG wouldn't be the lightning rod it currently is if the game was shut down instead of revamped. Shutting SWG down would have been a better business decision, and a much better PR decision, than the revamp was.
Have you seen the recent EA land mess? thats almost identical in every way to SWG.
They decided they were going to try to compete with second life. Did a revamp with the same customers in place, but they did something that is worse in my opinion (which I hope is take just as that). After taking people's money they about 8 montsh maybe at tops shut the entire EA land project down. They refunded some money but not all and gave free pogo time to the subscribers. The subscriber base like the SWG subscriber base was not tha large 200k if your lucky. So they attempted to screw a minority in order to get a majority. It failed miserabely worse and ended up in the entire thing being shut down. Customers in many cases lots a bundle of money as it was using a the same model as second life and so people were treating it like second life. EA land just after converting this thing to a basic microtransaction system with a two tier membership system and stuff shut the doors in the customers faces. That's just recent as in well 30 days maybe (i can't remember july first or august first was the shut down date).
The Sims Online was under 10K subscribers. EA Land was the same game with a different payment model, plus features add to, not replacing, what was already in the game. EA Land was a free to play RMT game. EA Land wasn't a complete game revamp. EA even (somewhat) compensated their customers, by offering them a $15 discount at the EA Store, or a free month Club Pogo membership. They also annoounced both the EA Land change and the closing of the game, well in advance (the shutdown announcement was made 60 days prior to the actual shutdown date). The whole EA Land concept was an attempt to revitalize the game for the folks who play it, with the hopes of attracting more people. The whole thing was basically the exact opposite of what happened with the NGE.
SOE is still at the bottom where ethics are concerned.
I was one of those subscribers enough said. Having been through both and lost no money with sony and lost money with these guys and find that after all that crap they pulled they shut it down PLUS you have to phone and pay a long distance phone bill to cancel stuff PLUS the fact that i have a two year old customer support ticket up with them leaves no doubt in my mind that they are as bad if not worse then sony. This is something people who have only played sony games will be finding out soon enough assuming this kotor online thing is real... The warmhammer crowd will be interesting to watch too :P . EA is pretty damned bad at least sony eventually answers my tickets. I can't say the same for EA. I do however have some free pogo time that i dont want to show for it all. lol
I was one of those subscribers enough said. Having been through both and lost no money with sony and lost money with these guys and find that after all that crap they pulled they shut it down PLUS you have to phone and pay a long distance phone bill to cancel stuff PLUS the fact that i have a two year old customer support ticket up with them leaves no doubt in my mind that they are as bad if not worse then sony. This is something people who have only played sony games will be finding out soon enough assuming this kotor online thing is real... The warmhammer crowd will be interesting to watch too :P . EA is pretty damned bad at least sony eventually answers my tickets. I can't say the same for EA. I do however have some free pogo time that i dont want to show for it all. lol
Well there's probably people that had a years subscription to SWG on the strength of Smed's "The CU is here to stay" speech after the NGE hit, they could have been stung for $150. I can't recall any instance that EA have managed to gouge that sort of amount while blatantly lying.
...The spread of secondary and latterly of tertiary education has created a large population of people, often with well developed literary and scholarly tastes, who have been educated far beyond their capacity to undertake analytical thought.
Originally posted by ummax Originally posted by Obee Originally posted by ummax Originally posted by Obee Originally posted by ummax bioware is now owned by EA who holds the same colourful description that you just gave to sony. So basically your saying that the "blame" for lucas arts screws up will come one day but not today?
SWG's history is going to be brought up as soon as BioWare's MMO is officially announced. A lot more people will bring up LEC's portion of the blame for SWG's current state. LEC's official position on SWG is "Talk to SOE about it". There will be more than a few LEC folks promoting BioWare's MMO, so LEC will have a public face, and as such, will see much of the backlash towards SWG that they have avoided so far. Everything that went wrong with SWG will be brought up. EA is nowhere near as Bad as SOE when it comes to screwing their customers. EA is very bad about screwing the developers it buys up, but they don't run around insulting the customers they upset by doing so afterwards, or try to blaim their customers for it. EA is also much more likely to shut down an MMO that is doing poorly, as opposed to screwing over their customers by revamping the game out from under them. SWG wouldn't be the lightning rod it currently is if the game was shut down instead of revamped. Shutting SWG down would have been a better business decision, and a much better PR decision, than the revamp was.
Have you seen the recent EA land mess? thats almost identical in every way to SWG. They decided they were going to try to compete with second life. Did a revamp with the same customers in place, but they did something that is worse in my opinion (which I hope is take just as that). After taking people's money they about 8 montsh maybe at tops shut the entire EA land project down. They refunded some money but not all and gave free pogo time to the subscribers. The subscriber base like the SWG subscriber base was not tha large 200k if your lucky. So they attempted to screw a minority in order to get a majority. It failed miserabely worse and ended up in the entire thing being shut down. Customers in many cases lots a bundle of money as it was using a the same model as second life and so people were treating it like second life. EA land just after converting this thing to a basic microtransaction system with a two tier membership system and stuff shut the doors in the customers faces. That's just recent as in well 30 days maybe (i can't remember july first or august first was the shut down date).
The Sims Online was under 10K subscribers. EA Land was the same game with a different payment model, plus features add to, not replacing, what was already in the game. EA Land was a free to play RMT game. EA Land wasn't a complete game revamp. EA even (somewhat) compensated their customers, by offering them a $15 discount at the EA Store, or a free month Club Pogo membership. They also annoounced both the EA Land change and the closing of the game, well in advance (the shutdown announcement was made 60 days prior to the actual shutdown date). The whole EA Land concept was an attempt to revitalize the game for the folks who play it, with the hopes of attracting more people. The whole thing was basically the exact opposite of what happened with the NGE. SOE is still at the bottom where ethics are concerned.
I was one of those subscribers enough said. Having been through both and lost no money with sony and lost money with these guys and find that after all that crap they pulled they shut it down PLUS you have to phone and pay a long distance phone bill to cancel stuff PLUS the fact that i have a two year old customer support ticket up with them leaves no doubt in my mind that they are as bad if not worse then sony. This is something people who have only played sony games will be finding out soon enough assuming this kotor online thing is real... The warmhammer crowd will be interesting to watch too :P . EA is pretty damned bad at least sony eventually answers my tickets. I can't say the same for EA. I do however have some free pogo time that i dont want to show for it all. lol
and what has all this personal stuff got to do with the topic of what could they do to get people back, or the subtopic of whether or not LA had a great deal to do with the NGE?
Comments
What you do allows people to shift and drop context -- it's what always happens when anyone does that on these forums. I find maintaining context -- FULL context -- is superior. Sorry if it bothers you, and you think it's kind of silly. I don't.
fishermage.blogspot.com
I gave up on that as this forum wont behave and I then decided after attempting to do that that since no one else does that is how this particular forum likes to run itself. Anyhow whenever I try to remove anything that should not go there I make a mess and the spacing goes away and the quotes go away and I gave that up for lent unless I can get it to work on the first try. I complained about how this forum worked awhile back but that's about all I can do.
Another good point on that subject. These forums are not conducive to that either.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Once again to bring up GOOD GAMES that the company makes proves nothing -- everyone bad does something good. I am merely poking holes in people who try and use what happened to KOTOR 2 as any evidence to what happened with SWG.
MY point is that all speculative, oustide evidence, all pattern of nehavior evidence cancels itself out, as I have shown, and all we are left with are the actual evidence WE HAVE -- which clearly shows that SOE is to blame for the NGE, and LA never should have let SOE do it.
That places most blame on SOE, or at least it should and would in any business relationship.
KotOR 2 shipped in the shape it did because Obsidian blew through the (limited) budget and LEC wasn't willing to pay more. Considering the president of Obsidian posted on their forums that he was actively trying to get LEC to hire them to make KotOR 3, I don't think they had all that bad of an experience with the supposed "Iron Fist of Lucas". For a guy who is supposed to be a control freak over the Star Wars IP, the Neck seems to be very laid back about the EU stuff (he claims to not read any of the books, because he has people he employs to keep track of that stuff).
NwN 2 is a good game now, but that wasn't the case when it was released. When it was released it had several issues that made it almost unplayable. Using KotOR 2 as some sort of proof that LEC caused the problems with SWG is laughable.
so you want to admit that LA would not pay for a better quality product? and then say its not proof of the fact that they are willing to put out shabby stuff? They could have cancelled it and not shipped at all but that is what they did. They shipped a broken product and sold it to peple for money , but somehow LA has no blame in what goes on in any of its games? Why have they not pulled the plug on SWG?
that also makes no sense please elaborate.
Who has claimed that LEC has no blame for the shape SWG is currently in? I've yet to see anyone make that claim, except for people like yourself who are claiming that people are making the claim. I've also not seen anyone make the claim that LEC hasn't put out products that were complete crap. LEC has been focused on poor quality Star Wars games for years. When they hire a quality developer to make games for them, they end up with quality games (KotOR, the Jedi Knight/Dark Forces games, Empire at War, etc.). When they hire poor quality developers to make games for them, we end up with stuff like the NGE. When they develop their own games, they are very much hit and miss (mostly miss for the last several years).
As for why LEC hasn't shut down SWG, I honestly have no clue. I would assume they mistakenly believe that keeping SWG live is having some sort of positive effect, as opposed to damaging the potential viablility of a future MMO using the IP. What we do know, from the folks who were actually there and involved, is that the folks at LEC did not force SOE to make the changes to the game that has caused the game to be in the pathertic state it is currently in. It was the folks from SOE that convinced the folks at LEC that the changes would make the game better and increase the subscription numbers. SOE's primary function is to make MMORPGs, LEC's function is a publisher/developer of single player games. The folks at SOE were supposed to be experts in their field.
As for KotOR 2, had the folks at Obsidian not released some of the design docs for the content that was cut, nobody would think KotOR 2 was anything more than a game that wasn't as good as the first one. It was a complete game, one that would have been much better had what was cut been included, but it wasn't shipped as an incomplete or broken product. Content is cut all the time to make release dates, or because of budget constraints. Obsidian set about building a game that required a much larger budget than they had, so things had to be cut. They didn't seem to upset about it, considering they tried to get LEC to hire them to make KotOR 3. They are very open to admitting they made a bunch of mistakes while developing KotOR 2, and claim to have learned from the experience.
interesting but the tidal wave of threads that blame soe and when people try to say something about it say that LA is only responsible for like signing the paycheques. Its all over these forums and all of a sudden there is a shift?
Its funny that but these forums dont reflect that any blame is placed on them. IN fact the first time I said to people "hey you guys buy LA's stuff" and they had something to do with it I was shouted down. What people say is not reflecting that anyone will even slightly acknowledge it unless some pushing is done. Then and only then wil people begrudglingly admit that LA played a "small part" usualy tiny infintesimal when its their money, they IP and ultimately their game that they still sell in their boxes on their website.
Now people seem to not have a problem with "forgiving" LEC, bioware for the kotor screw up but they wont give a dime to sony. Now sony has openly admitted even the smedley guy that they went to far and that they wont be doing that again. I have seen people openly deny that Sony apologized even though they have. Somehow everyone can find it in their hearts to forgive LA and bioware, but wont give the same consideration to sony. Yet as we speak sony is putting things into the game (that LA lets them) to make it better. Things work.
Somehow though the fact that there is no classic CU server is of course only sony's fault. The entire point of what is being said around here is what would it take to get some people back. Everyone points to sony alone not LA the guy who owns the thing and pays the bills. Somehow its only sony's decision to upt in CU servers and LA has no say over it? Its LA's money and LA"s game. If the changes that people seem to want (rollback servers) are not forthcoming then 50% of the reason (the word yes) would ahve to come from LA along with the funding and manpower, but its not forthcoming, but somehow the lack of these servers is just a sony thing.
When I see some threads pulling LA apart the way people dismantle sony then maybe I will believe that people actualy place some reasonable amount of blame on LA as they should until then this forums shouds "i hate sony" and nothing more and its pretty much misplaced and should have like its own forum under sony or something and that was the point of what was said about a page or so back.
In other words you are angry about something that has happened in other threads and are carrying that grudge here. Why does it matter to you what people say about SONY? why does it all get you so upset that you can't let it go?
No one is 'shouting anyone down, " nor can anyone "shout anyone down" on a forum. What areyou talking about. We are all just typing here. Why take it all so personally. YOU are NOT SONY, are you? I am certainly not LEC, and I could care less what people say about it. I care only about the truth and evidence, and have hope that the debacle will not be repeated. I merely share the evidence I have seen over the years, and discount the speculative as it should be discounted, andwhen someone brings forth pattern of behavior "evidence," which is questionable at best, I show how SOE is guilty of it's own pattern of bahavior in all their games, and show how it has even led to making their good games unsuccessful.
I don't get upset, angry, or shout, I merely exchange reasons for reasons, and if someone ever shows me better reasons than mine, I'll change my opinion on a dime. All you have shared is the same tired nonsense I have seen before, and gotten all upset about it when I disagree with you (as usual).
I'm not angry what makes you think that? or is this another attempt at changing the subject? usualy when people infer about another person its cause they are starting to not want to deal with the issue so just take my word for it and realize i'm not angry.
I pointed out that this "i hate swg forum" is in fact an "i hate SOE" forum because I have not seen since my time posting here one single thread being angry at LA.
I'm angry at neither I actually enjoy the present rendition of SWG and am labelled a "fanboi" so technically I like LA and SOE. What I want to know is why no one hammers away at LA like they do at SOE. The answers I get is a wishy washy reply like you blame them a tiny bit but not much at all realll cause its mostly SOE's fault and LA is being held captive and is somehow a vitcim of SOE cause they had them by the "short and curly" and has like no say in anything and and and and.. soooo yeah "we never said it was all SOE's fault"
Once again to bring up GOOD GAMES that the company makes proves nothing -- everyone bad does something good. I am merely poking holes in people who try and use what happened to KOTOR 2 as any evidence to what happened with SWG.
MY point is that all speculative, oustide evidence, all pattern of nehavior evidence cancels itself out, as I have shown, and all we are left with are the actual evidence WE HAVE -- which clearly shows that SOE is to blame for the NGE, and LA never should have let SOE do it.
That places most blame on SOE, or at least it should and would in any business relationship.
KotOR 2 shipped in the shape it did because Obsidian blew through the (limited) budget and LEC wasn't willing to pay more. Considering the president of Obsidian posted on their forums that he was actively trying to get LEC to hire them to make KotOR 3, I don't think they had all that bad of an experience with the supposed "Iron Fist of Lucas". For a guy who is supposed to be a control freak over the Star Wars IP, the Neck seems to be very laid back about the EU stuff (he claims to not read any of the books, because he has people he employs to keep track of that stuff).
NwN 2 is a good game now, but that wasn't the case when it was released. When it was released it had several issues that made it almost unplayable. Using KotOR 2 as some sort of proof that LEC caused the problems with SWG is laughable.
so you want to admit that LA would not pay for a better quality product? and then say its not proof of the fact that they are willing to put out shabby stuff? They could have cancelled it and not shipped at all but that is what they did. They shipped a broken product and sold it to peple for money , but somehow LA has no blame in what goes on in any of its games? Why have they not pulled the plug on SWG?
that also makes no sense please elaborate.
Who has claimed that LEC has no blame for the shape SWG is currently in? I've yet to see anyone make that claim, except for people like yourself who are claiming that people are making the claim. I've also not seen anyone make the claim that LEC hasn't put out products that were complete crap. LEC has been focused on poor quality Star Wars games for years. When they hire a quality developer to make games for them, they end up with quality games (KotOR, the Jedi Knight/Dark Forces games, Empire at War, etc.). When they hire poor quality developers to make games for them, we end up with stuff like the NGE. When they develop their own games, they are very much hit and miss (mostly miss for the last several years).
As for why LEC hasn't shut down SWG, I honestly have no clue. I would assume they mistakenly believe that keeping SWG live is having some sort of positive effect, as opposed to damaging the potential viablility of a future MMO using the IP. What we do know, from the folks who were actually there and involved, is that the folks at LEC did not force SOE to make the changes to the game that has caused the game to be in the pathertic state it is currently in. It was the folks from SOE that convinced the folks at LEC that the changes would make the game better and increase the subscription numbers. SOE's primary function is to make MMORPGs, LEC's function is a publisher/developer of single player games. The folks at SOE were supposed to be experts in their field.
As for KotOR 2, had the folks at Obsidian not released some of the design docs for the content that was cut, nobody would think KotOR 2 was anything more than a game that wasn't as good as the first one. It was a complete game, one that would have been much better had what was cut been included, but it wasn't shipped as an incomplete or broken product. Content is cut all the time to make release dates, or because of budget constraints. Obsidian set about building a game that required a much larger budget than they had, so things had to be cut. They didn't seem to upset about it, considering they tried to get LEC to hire them to make KotOR 3. They are very open to admitting they made a bunch of mistakes while developing KotOR 2, and claim to have learned from the experience.
interesting but the tidal wave of threads that blame soe and when people try to say something about it say that LA is only responsible for like signing the paycheques. Its all over these forums and all of a sudden there is a shift?
Its funny that but these forums dont reflect that any blame is placed on them. IN fact the first time I said to people "hey you guys buy LA's stuff" and they had something to do with it I was shouted down. What people say is not reflecting that anyone will even slightly acknowledge it unless some pushing is done. Then and only then wil people begrudglingly admit that LA played a "small part" usualy tiny infintesimal when its their money, they IP and ultimately their game that they still sell in their boxes on their website.
Now people seem to not have a problem with "forgiving" LEC, bioware for the kotor screw up but they wont give a dime to sony. Now sony has openly admitted even the smedley guy that they went to far and that they wont be doing that again. I have seen people openly deny that Sony apologized even though they have. Somehow everyone can find it in their hearts to forgive LA and bioware, but wont give the same consideration to sony. Yet as we speak sony is putting things into the game (that LA lets them) to make it better. Things work.
Somehow though the fact that there is no classic CU server is of course only sony's fault. The entire point of what is being said around here is what would it take to get some people back. Everyone points to sony alone not LA the guy who owns the thing and pays the bills. Somehow its only sony's decision to upt in CU servers and LA has no say over it? Its LA's money and LA"s game. If the changes that people seem to want (rollback servers) are not forthcoming then 50% of the reason (the word yes) would ahve to come from LA along with the funding and manpower, but its not forthcoming, but somehow the lack of these servers is just a sony thing.
When I see some threads pulling LA apart the way people dismantle sony then maybe I will believe that people actualy place some reasonable amount of blame on LA as they should until then this forums shouds "i hate sony" and nothing more and its pretty much misplaced and should have like its own forum under sony or something and that was the point of what was said about a page or so back.
In other words you are angry about something that has happened in other threads and are carrying that grudge here. Why does it matter to you what people say about SONY? why does it all get you so upset that you can't let it go?
No one is 'shouting anyone down, " nor can anyone "shout anyone down" on a forum. What areyou talking about. We are all just typing here. Why take it all so personally. YOU are NOT SONY, are you? I am certainly not LEC, and I could care less what people say about it. I care only about the truth and evidence, and have hope that the debacle will not be repeated. I merely share the evidence I have seen over the years, and discount the speculative as it should be discounted, andwhen someone brings forth pattern of behavior "evidence," which is questionable at best, I show how SOE is guilty of it's own pattern of bahavior in all their games, and show how it has even led to making their good games unsuccessful.
I don't get upset, angry, or shout, I merely exchange reasons for reasons, and if someone ever shows me better reasons than mine, I'll change my opinion on a dime. All you have shared is the same tired nonsense I have seen before, and gotten all upset about it when I disagree with you (as usual).
I'm not angry what makes you think that? or is this another attempt at changing the subject? usualy when people infer about another person its cause they are starting to not want to deal with the issue so just take my word for it and realize i'm not angry.
I pointed out that this "i hate swg forum" is in fact an "i hate SOE" forum because I have not seen since my time posting here one single thread being angry at LA.
I'm angry at neither I actually enjoy the present rendition of SWG and am labelled a "fanboi" so technically I like LA and SOE. What I want to know is why no one hammers away at LA like they do at SOE. The answers I get is a wishy washy reply like you blame them a tiny bit but not much at all realll cause its mostly SOE's fault and LA is being held captive and is somehow a vitcim of SOE cause they had them by the "short and curly" and has like no say in anything and and and and.. soooo yeah "we never said it was all SOE's fault"
they hammer away at SOE because it is mostly SOE's fault -- at least all available evidence shows that, and they follow through on that.
I have said time and again it is partially LA's fault, and they SHOULD NOT have approved of anything they did approve of, but I also can see the position that SOE put them in -- and you should too. At every step of the game, LA had two choices: trust SOE or shut down the game. To me, that's being held by the short and curlies. Not to you, fine.
Sorry the vast majority including myself disagree with you on this (as evidenced by your complaining about how people speak about SOE on these forums), and you haven't presented a convincing case for your position.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Actually not sure how you come up with "the vast majority" of anything. How many people actualy post to this forum? and how many people in this thread have said the opposite to what you are just saying now?
As for the case its been amply presented the fact that you wont accept it is another issue. I haven't actualy seen anyone answer the awekward questions other then "they admit their mistakes" and "wont do it again" as to why LA is allowing what is going on to happen and has done so more then once.
*tries really hard not to mention the clone wars film created by their other entertainment section which is god aweful low budget garbage*
Actually not sure how you come up with "the vast majority" of anything. How many people actualy post to this forum? and how many people in this thread have said the opposite to what you are just saying now?
I am merely going along with what YOU said. YOU are the one upset by the tone of this forum. I was merely conceding with you on that point, and answering in kind.
Now, are you ready to actually present any more evidence for your position?
fishermage.blogspot.com
Once again to bring up GOOD GAMES that the company makes proves nothing -- everyone bad does something good. I am merely poking holes in people who try and use what happened to KOTOR 2 as any evidence to what happened with SWG.
MY point is that all speculative, oustide evidence, all pattern of nehavior evidence cancels itself out, as I have shown, and all we are left with are the actual evidence WE HAVE -- which clearly shows that SOE is to blame for the NGE, and LA never should have let SOE do it.
That places most blame on SOE, or at least it should and would in any business relationship.
KotOR 2 shipped in the shape it did because Obsidian blew through the (limited) budget and LEC wasn't willing to pay more. Considering the president of Obsidian posted on their forums that he was actively trying to get LEC to hire them to make KotOR 3, I don't think they had all that bad of an experience with the supposed "Iron Fist of Lucas". For a guy who is supposed to be a control freak over the Star Wars IP, the Neck seems to be very laid back about the EU stuff (he claims to not read any of the books, because he has people he employs to keep track of that stuff).
NwN 2 is a good game now, but that wasn't the case when it was released. When it was released it had several issues that made it almost unplayable. Using KotOR 2 as some sort of proof that LEC caused the problems with SWG is laughable.
so you want to admit that LA would not pay for a better quality product? and then say its not proof of the fact that they are willing to put out shabby stuff? They could have cancelled it and not shipped at all but that is what they did. They shipped a broken product and sold it to peple for money , but somehow LA has no blame in what goes on in any of its games? Why have they not pulled the plug on SWG?
that also makes no sense please elaborate.
Who has claimed that LEC has no blame for the shape SWG is currently in? I've yet to see anyone make that claim, except for people like yourself who are claiming that people are making the claim. I've also not seen anyone make the claim that LEC hasn't put out products that were complete crap. LEC has been focused on poor quality Star Wars games for years. When they hire a quality developer to make games for them, they end up with quality games (KotOR, the Jedi Knight/Dark Forces games, Empire at War, etc.). When they hire poor quality developers to make games for them, we end up with stuff like the NGE. When they develop their own games, they are very much hit and miss (mostly miss for the last several years).
As for why LEC hasn't shut down SWG, I honestly have no clue. I would assume they mistakenly believe that keeping SWG live is having some sort of positive effect, as opposed to damaging the potential viablility of a future MMO using the IP. What we do know, from the folks who were actually there and involved, is that the folks at LEC did not force SOE to make the changes to the game that has caused the game to be in the pathertic state it is currently in. It was the folks from SOE that convinced the folks at LEC that the changes would make the game better and increase the subscription numbers. SOE's primary function is to make MMORPGs, LEC's function is a publisher/developer of single player games. The folks at SOE were supposed to be experts in their field.
As for KotOR 2, had the folks at Obsidian not released some of the design docs for the content that was cut, nobody would think KotOR 2 was anything more than a game that wasn't as good as the first one. It was a complete game, one that would have been much better had what was cut been included, but it wasn't shipped as an incomplete or broken product. Content is cut all the time to make release dates, or because of budget constraints. Obsidian set about building a game that required a much larger budget than they had, so things had to be cut. They didn't seem to upset about it, considering they tried to get LEC to hire them to make KotOR 3. They are very open to admitting they made a bunch of mistakes while developing KotOR 2, and claim to have learned from the experience.
interesting but the tidal wave of threads that blame soe and when people try to say something about it say that LA is only responsible for like signing the paycheques. Its all over these forums and all of a sudden there is a shift?
Its funny that but these forums dont reflect that any blame is placed on them. IN fact the first time I said to people "hey you guys buy LA's stuff" and they had something to do with it I was shouted down. What people say is not reflecting that anyone will even slightly acknowledge it unless some pushing is done. Then and only then wil people begrudglingly admit that LA played a "small part" usualy tiny infintesimal when its their money, they IP and ultimately their game that they still sell in their boxes on their website.
Now people seem to not have a problem with "forgiving" LEC, bioware for the kotor screw up but they wont give a dime to sony. Now sony has openly admitted even the smedley guy that they went to far and that they wont be doing that again. I have seen people openly deny that Sony apologized even though they have. Somehow everyone can find it in their hearts to forgive LA and bioware, but wont give the same consideration to sony. Yet as we speak sony is putting things into the game (that LA lets them) to make it better. Things work.
Somehow though the fact that there is no classic CU server is of course only sony's fault. The entire point of what is being said around here is what would it take to get some people back. Everyone points to sony alone not LA the guy who owns the thing and pays the bills. Somehow its only sony's decision to upt in CU servers and LA has no say over it? Its LA's money and LA"s game. If the changes that people seem to want (rollback servers) are not forthcoming then 50% of the reason (the word yes) would ahve to come from LA along with the funding and manpower, but its not forthcoming, but somehow the lack of these servers is just a sony thing.
When I see some threads pulling LA apart the way people dismantle sony then maybe I will believe that people actualy place some reasonable amount of blame on LA as they should until then this forums shouds "i hate sony" and nothing more and its pretty much misplaced and should have like its own forum under sony or something and that was the point of what was said about a page or so back.
Wait until Bioware's MMO is officially announced. There will be plenty of blame for SWG directed towards LEC.
Most of the blame is directed at SOE because SOE deserves most of the blame. Both the CU and the NGE, the two worst things to happent to SWG and the players, were both concieved and designed by SOE. They weren't imposed on the game by LEC. LEC should have said "No". The fact that LEC had no previous experience with MMOs prior to SWG mitigates their culpability somewhat. They had no reason to not trust the folks they thought were experts in the MMO field.
Nobody knows the real reason why there is no classic server. People have made guesses, but there has been no actual information as to why. The funding issue is based on subscription numbers. The sub numbers are very low, so the game isn't seeing a major investment from either SOE or LEC. Any funds dedicated to setting up a classic server would be from the current development budget. It would be a major waste of money to set up a classic server, which would attract more of the current players away from the NGE game, as opposed to drawing back former players. They are much better served by continuing to use the dev budget to string along the dwindling current players until the game is no longer financially viable. They can always cut the budget further to make up for the ever decreasing sub numbers.
SOE has learned very little from the NGE debacle. They have still made unwanted changes to SWG that has resulted in losing more subscribers. For all their blame shifting towards poor communication, the current dev team won't even let the playerbase know where the game is headed, beyond what is being worked on at that moment. EQ2 is still seeing changed that don't take into account what the playerbase wants. Hell, after the Smed claiming there would be no NGE like changes to Vanguard, and claiming that SOE was interested in Vanguard because it was a "hardcore" game, development has been focused on making it easier and more accessible (ie., more like WoW) since the SOE takeover. The only games that have escaped similar changes is Planetside and MxO, and that is only because nobody plays them and so there are no resources dedicated to making sucxh changes.
LEC's blame for SWG's current state is due to ignorance and stupidity. They trusted folks (SOE) who shouldn't have been trusted. They did so because they thought the folks at SOE knew what they were doing. Two former SOE developers (Jeff Freeman and Dan Rubenfield) have admitted that the folks at SOE knew the NGE would likely cause most of the existing players to quit the game. They pushed for the changes anyway becuase they thought the old playerbase would be replaced with a new one. That was before the changes were proposed to LEC for approval. The folks at SOE told the folks at LEC that the changes would make the game better, and would increase the subscriber base. The folks at SOE knew what they were proposing was unethical, yet they pushed for it anyway. It was SOE employees that were promoting features in the ToOW expansion that they knew were not going to be part of the game a few weeks later. SOE gets most of the blame because they deserve it.
People are looking forward to the BioWare MMO because BioWare has yet to do anything to prove that they are unethical douche bags like the folks at SOE have. People aren't looking forward to BioWare's MMO because of any LEC involvement, aside from the Star Wars IP itself. LEC was burned by the changes to SWG (they lost a bunch of money), so I doubt they will be very open to somone proposing similar changes to BioWare's MMO. The main draw of BioWare's MMO will be that it is a Star Wars MMO that lacks SOE involvement.
Actually not sure how you come up with "the vast majority" of anything. How many people actualy post to this forum? and how many people in this thread have said the opposite to what you are just saying now?
I am merely going along with what YOU said. YOU are the one upset by the tone of this forum. I was merely conceding with you on that point, and answering in kind.
Now, are you ready to actually present any more evidence for your position?
Why do you talk like this? no i'm not "ready" to present any "evidence on my position" lol your honour I presented my "case to you " your honour and the jury is out and has given its verdict long ago which is your honour that LA takes a fair share of the blame in the rest of the world. The fact your honour that this verdict is as it is.. will not change your honour..
Once again to bring up GOOD GAMES that the company makes proves nothing -- everyone bad does something good. I am merely poking holes in people who try and use what happened to KOTOR 2 as any evidence to what happened with SWG.
MY point is that all speculative, oustide evidence, all pattern of nehavior evidence cancels itself out, as I have shown, and all we are left with are the actual evidence WE HAVE -- which clearly shows that SOE is to blame for the NGE, and LA never should have let SOE do it.
That places most blame on SOE, or at least it should and would in any business relationship.
KotOR 2 shipped in the shape it did because Obsidian blew through the (limited) budget and LEC wasn't willing to pay more. Considering the president of Obsidian posted on their forums that he was actively trying to get LEC to hire them to make KotOR 3, I don't think they had all that bad of an experience with the supposed "Iron Fist of Lucas". For a guy who is supposed to be a control freak over the Star Wars IP, the Neck seems to be very laid back about the EU stuff (he claims to not read any of the books, because he has people he employs to keep track of that stuff).
NwN 2 is a good game now, but that wasn't the case when it was released. When it was released it had several issues that made it almost unplayable. Using KotOR 2 as some sort of proof that LEC caused the problems with SWG is laughable.
so you want to admit that LA would not pay for a better quality product? and then say its not proof of the fact that they are willing to put out shabby stuff? They could have cancelled it and not shipped at all but that is what they did. They shipped a broken product and sold it to peple for money , but somehow LA has no blame in what goes on in any of its games? Why have they not pulled the plug on SWG?
that also makes no sense please elaborate.
Who has claimed that LEC has no blame for the shape SWG is currently in? I've yet to see anyone make that claim, except for people like yourself who are claiming that people are making the claim. I've also not seen anyone make the claim that LEC hasn't put out products that were complete crap. LEC has been focused on poor quality Star Wars games for years. When they hire a quality developer to make games for them, they end up with quality games (KotOR, the Jedi Knight/Dark Forces games, Empire at War, etc.). When they hire poor quality developers to make games for them, we end up with stuff like the NGE. When they develop their own games, they are very much hit and miss (mostly miss for the last several years).
As for why LEC hasn't shut down SWG, I honestly have no clue. I would assume they mistakenly believe that keeping SWG live is having some sort of positive effect, as opposed to damaging the potential viablility of a future MMO using the IP. What we do know, from the folks who were actually there and involved, is that the folks at LEC did not force SOE to make the changes to the game that has caused the game to be in the pathertic state it is currently in. It was the folks from SOE that convinced the folks at LEC that the changes would make the game better and increase the subscription numbers. SOE's primary function is to make MMORPGs, LEC's function is a publisher/developer of single player games. The folks at SOE were supposed to be experts in their field.
As for KotOR 2, had the folks at Obsidian not released some of the design docs for the content that was cut, nobody would think KotOR 2 was anything more than a game that wasn't as good as the first one. It was a complete game, one that would have been much better had what was cut been included, but it wasn't shipped as an incomplete or broken product. Content is cut all the time to make release dates, or because of budget constraints. Obsidian set about building a game that required a much larger budget than they had, so things had to be cut. They didn't seem to upset about it, considering they tried to get LEC to hire them to make KotOR 3. They are very open to admitting they made a bunch of mistakes while developing KotOR 2, and claim to have learned from the experience.
interesting but the tidal wave of threads that blame soe and when people try to say something about it say that LA is only responsible for like signing the paycheques. Its all over these forums and all of a sudden there is a shift?
Its funny that but these forums dont reflect that any blame is placed on them. IN fact the first time I said to people "hey you guys buy LA's stuff" and they had something to do with it I was shouted down. What people say is not reflecting that anyone will even slightly acknowledge it unless some pushing is done. Then and only then wil people begrudglingly admit that LA played a "small part" usualy tiny infintesimal when its their money, they IP and ultimately their game that they still sell in their boxes on their website.
Now people seem to not have a problem with "forgiving" LEC, bioware for the kotor screw up but they wont give a dime to sony. Now sony has openly admitted even the smedley guy that they went to far and that they wont be doing that again. I have seen people openly deny that Sony apologized even though they have. Somehow everyone can find it in their hearts to forgive LA and bioware, but wont give the same consideration to sony. Yet as we speak sony is putting things into the game (that LA lets them) to make it better. Things work.
Somehow though the fact that there is no classic CU server is of course only sony's fault. The entire point of what is being said around here is what would it take to get some people back. Everyone points to sony alone not LA the guy who owns the thing and pays the bills. Somehow its only sony's decision to upt in CU servers and LA has no say over it? Its LA's money and LA"s game. If the changes that people seem to want (rollback servers) are not forthcoming then 50% of the reason (the word yes) would ahve to come from LA along with the funding and manpower, but its not forthcoming, but somehow the lack of these servers is just a sony thing.
When I see some threads pulling LA apart the way people dismantle sony then maybe I will believe that people actualy place some reasonable amount of blame on LA as they should until then this forums shouds "i hate sony" and nothing more and its pretty much misplaced and should have like its own forum under sony or something and that was the point of what was said about a page or so back.
Wait until Bioware's MMO is officially announced. There will be plenty of blame for SWG directed towards LEC.
Most of the blame is directed at SOE because SOE deserves most of the blame. Both the CU and the NGE, the two worst things to happent to SWG and the players, were both concieved and designed by SOE. They weren't imposed on the game by LEC. LEC should have said "No". The fact that LEC had no previous experience with MMOs prior to SWG mitigates their culpability somewhat. They had no reason to not trust the folks they thought were experts in the MMO field.
Nobody knows the real reason why there is no classic server. People have made guesses, but there has been no actual information as to why. The funding issue is based on subscription numbers. The sub numbers are very low, so the game isn't seeing a major investment from either SOE or LEC. Any funds dedicated to setting up a classic server would be from the current development budget. It would be a major waste of money to set up a classic server, which would attract more of the current players away from the NGE game, as opposed to drawing back former players. They are much better served by continuing to use the dev budget to string along the dwindling current players until the game is no longer financially viable. They can always cut the budget further to make up for the ever decreasing sub numbers.
SOE has learned very little from the NGE debacle. They have still made unwanted changes to SWG that has resulted in losing more subscribers. For all their blame shifting towards poor communication, the current dev team won't even let the playerbase know where the game is headed, beyond what is being worked on at that moment. EQ2 is still seeing changed that don't take into account what the playerbase wants. Hell, after the Smed claiming there would be no NGE like changes to Vanguard, and claiming that SOE was interested in Vanguard because it was a "hardcore" game, development has been focused on making it easier and more accessible (ie., more like WoW) since the SOE takeover. The only games that have escaped similar changes is Planetside and MxO, and that is only because nobody plays them and so there are no resources dedicated to making sucxh changes.
LEC's blame for SWG's current state is due to ignorance and stupidity. They trusted folks (SOE) who shouldn't have been trusted. They did so because they thought the folks at SOE knew what they were doing. Two former SOE developers (Jeff Freeman and Dan Rubenfield) have admitted that the folks at SOE knew the NGE would likely cause most of the existing players to quit the game. They pushed for the changes anyway becuase they thought the old playerbase would be replaced with a new one. That was before the changes were proposed to LEC for approval. The folks at SOE told the folks at LEC that the changes would make the game better, and would increase the subscriber base. The folks at SOE knew what they were proposing was unethical, yet they pushed for it anyway. It was SOE employees that were promoting features in the ToOW expansion that they knew were not going to be part of the game a few weeks later. SOE gets most of the blame because they deserve it.
People are looking forward to the BioWare MMO because BioWare has yet to do anything to prove that they are unethical douche bags like the folks at SOE have. People aren't looking forward to BioWare's MMO because of any LEC involvement, aside from the Star Wars IP itself. LEC was burned by the changes to SWG (they lost a bunch of money), so I doubt they will be very open to somone proposing similar changes to BioWare's MMO. The main draw of BioWare's MMO will be that it is a Star Wars MMO that lacks SOE involvement.
bioware is now owned by EA who holds the same colourful description that you just gave to sony. So basically your saying that the "blame" for lucas arts screws up will come one day but not today?
Actually not sure how you come up with "the vast majority" of anything. How many people actualy post to this forum? and how many people in this thread have said the opposite to what you are just saying now?
I am merely going along with what YOU said. YOU are the one upset by the tone of this forum. I was merely conceding with you on that point, and answering in kind.
Now, are you ready to actually present any more evidence for your position?
Why do you talk like this? no i'm not "ready" to present any "evidence on my position" lol your honour I presented my "case to you " your honour and the jury is out and has given its verdict long ago which is your honour that LA takes a fair share of the blame in the rest of the world. The fact your honour that this verdict is as it is.. will not change your honour..
In other words since you are out of evidence, and have no reasons to back up your position, you will resort to ridicule. Thank you for your time.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Actually not sure how you come up with "the vast majority" of anything. How many people actualy post to this forum? and how many people in this thread have said the opposite to what you are just saying now?
I am merely going along with what YOU said. YOU are the one upset by the tone of this forum. I was merely conceding with you on that point, and answering in kind.
Now, are you ready to actually present any more evidence for your position?
Why do you talk like this? no i'm not "ready" to present any "evidence on my position" lol your honour I presented my "case to you " your honour and the jury is out and has given its verdict long ago which is your honour that LA takes a fair share of the blame in the rest of the world. The fact your honour that this verdict is as it is.. will not change your honour..
In other words since you are out of evidence, and have no reasons to back up your position, you will resort to ridicule. Thank you for your time.
okay? are we starting this again?
I have given the "evidence" and you wont accept it and digest it and despite the evidence you refuse to look at it. There is nothing more I can do. You want more of what? What more do you need? LA owns the game LA holds the means to pull the plug on the game whenever it wants. LA like sony has lawyers if they dont like what someone is doing with their money and feel they failed to deliver on a product they will do one of several things
a) ask for their mone back so they can go elsehwere
b) ask them to do it over again
c) sue them for what is released
none of these has been done. What more do you want
further to that they have like JUST RECENTLY given sony an IP renewal and have decided to CONTINUE to pay them money instead of say giving SWG to say Bioware (sounds good to me everyone likes them right now..) and asking them to maintain it. NOTHING like this has happened your just ignoring what is being said. So its over we are into "no you didn't' " yes you did" pissing contest. The information is there read it agree with it or dont. That is all there is to this and nothing more. This is just a board and nothing more so I guess you dont agree with this information that's your choice and that is all there is too it ..
SWG's history is going to be brought up as soon as BioWare's MMO is officially announced. A lot more people will bring up LEC's portion of the blame for SWG's current state. LEC's official position on SWG is "Talk to SOE about it". There will be more than a few LEC folks promoting BioWare's MMO, so LEC will have a public face, and as such, will see much of the backlash towards SWG that they have avoided so far. Everything that went wrong with SWG will be brought up.
EA is nowhere near as Bad as SOE when it comes to screwing their customers. EA is very bad about screwing the developers it buys up, but they don't run around insulting the customers they upset by doing so afterwards, or try to blaim their customers for it. EA is also much more likely to shut down an MMO that is doing poorly, as opposed to screwing over their customers by revamping the game out from under them. SWG wouldn't be the lightning rod it currently is if the game was shut down instead of revamped. Shutting SWG down would have been a better business decision, and a much better PR decision, than the revamp was.
Actually not sure how you come up with "the vast majority" of anything. How many people actualy post to this forum? and how many people in this thread have said the opposite to what you are just saying now?
I am merely going along with what YOU said. YOU are the one upset by the tone of this forum. I was merely conceding with you on that point, and answering in kind.
Now, are you ready to actually present any more evidence for your position?
Why do you talk like this? no i'm not "ready" to present any "evidence on my position" lol your honour I presented my "case to you " your honour and the jury is out and has given its verdict long ago which is your honour that LA takes a fair share of the blame in the rest of the world. The fact your honour that this verdict is as it is.. will not change your honour..
In other words since you are out of evidence, and have no reasons to back up your position, you will resort to ridicule. Thank you for your time.
okay? are we starting this again?
I have given the "evidence" and you wont accept it and digest it and despite the evidence you refuse to look at it. There is nothing more I can do. You want more of what? What more do you need? LA owns the game LA holds the means to pull the plug on the game whenever it wants. LA like sony has lawyers if they dont like what someone is doing with their money and feel they failed to deliver on a product they will do one of several things
a) ask for their mone back so they can go elsehwere
b) ask them to do it over again
c) sue them for what is released
none of these has been done. What more do you want
further to that they have like JUST RECENTLY given sony an IP renewal and have decided to CONTINUE to pay them money instead of say giving SWG to say Bioware (sounds good to me everyone likes them right now..) and asking them to maintain it. NOTHING like this has happened your just ignoring what is being said. So its over we are into "no you didn't' " yes you did" pissing contest. The information is there read it agree with it or dont. That is all there is to this and nothing more. This is just a board and nothing more so I guess you dont agree with this information that's your choice and that is all there is too it ..
here we go again. First of all, you are just making this up and have no proof. Second, let us assume you are right, and they just 'renewed," what is LA's choice? Either to shut the game down, and make YOU and people who still enjoy the game very unhappy, or continue to trust SONY?
You aren't presenting ANYTHING convincing.
fishermage.blogspot.com
SWG's history is going to be brought up as soon as BioWare's MMO is officially announced. A lot more people will bring up LEC's portion of the blame for SWG's current state. LEC's official position on SWG is "Talk to SOE about it". There will be more than a few LEC folks promoting BioWare's MMO, so LEC will have a public face, and as such, will see much of the backlash towards SWG that they have avoided so far. Everything that went wrong with SWG will be brought up.
EA is nowhere near as Bad as SOE when it comes to screwing their customers. EA is very bad about screwing the developers it buys up, but they don't run around insulting the customers they upset by doing so afterwards, or try to blaim their customers for it. EA is also much more likely to shut down an MMO that is doing poorly, as opposed to screwing over their customers by revamping the game out from under them. SWG wouldn't be the lightning rod it currently is if the game was shut down instead of revamped. Shutting SWG down would have been a better business decision, and a much better PR decision, than the revamp was.
Have you seen the recent EA land mess? thats almost identical in every way to SWG.
They decided they were going to try to compete with second life. Did a revamp with the same customers in place, but they did something that is worse in my opinion (which I hope is take just as that). After taking people's money they about 8 montsh maybe at tops shut the entire EA land project down. They refunded some money but not all and gave free pogo time to the subscribers. The subscriber base like the SWG subscriber base was not tha large 200k if your lucky. So they attempted to screw a minority in order to get a majority. It failed miserabely worse and ended up in the entire thing being shut down. Customers in many cases lots a bundle of money as it was using a the same model as second life and so people were treating it like second life. EA land just after converting this thing to a basic microtransaction system with a two tier membership system and stuff shut the doors in the customers faces. That's just recent as in well 30 days maybe (i can't remember july first or august first was the shut down date).
lets expand on that a little as well, if EA had screwed with their client base as SOE have they wouldn't be the largest developer/publisher in gaming history. SOE are the only Sony company that can't lay claim to being a world beater in any category, other than their piss poor customer relations but then that's not something they can shout about.
Lets get a bit of perspective here, the Sony brand overall is at an all time low but the PS3 is still going toe to toe with the 360, Sony TV's are still some of the best available, their OCD displays are cutting edge, their movie business is doing reasonably well and yet huddled over in the corner there's their mmo division with it's "flagship" title being kicked from pillar to post by any number of mmo's out there by developers with funding totals that could be spent at a Sony luncheon. I sure as shit wouldn't fancy being Smed at any high level exec meeting he may have to attend.
...The spread of secondary and latterly of tertiary education has created a large population of people, often with well developed literary and scholarly tastes, who have been educated far beyond their capacity to undertake analytical thought.
lets expand on that a little as well, if EA had screwed with their client base as SOE have they wouldn't be the largest developer/publisher in gaming history. SOE are the only Sony company that can't lay claim to being a world beater in any category, other than their piss poor customer relations but then that's not something they can shout about.
Lets get a bit of perspective here, the Sony brand overall is at an all time low but the PS3 is still going toe to toe with the 360, Sony TV's are still some of the best available, their OCD displays are cutting edge, their movie business is doing reasonably well and yet huddled over in the corner there's their mmo division with it's "flagship" title being kicked from pillar to post by any number of mmo's out there by developers with funding totals that could be spent at a Sony luncheon. I sure as shit wouldn't fancy being Smed at any high level exec meeting he may have to attend.
EA customer here.. go read the boards..(what few of them exist)
Been screwed with more by EA then by sony. (for now)
Here is my criteria for gaming companies these days considering what happens with them
1) are they capable of keeping my credit card info safe..
2) thats it because that is the only thing that with all the crappy customer support I have received from all of them is about all that I can expect so go read #1.. the rest is the same in every company I have had to do business with for a game they have that I want to play.
EA customer here.. go read the boards..(what few of them exist)
Been screwed with more by EA then by sony. (for now)
Here is my criteria for gaming companies these days considering what happens with them
1) are they capable of keeping my credit card info safe..
2) thats it because that is the only thing that with all the crappy customer support I have received from all of them is about all that I can expect so go read #1.. the rest is the same in every company I have had to do business with for a game they have that I want to play.
I don't buy EA, I don't buy SOE... pretty simple way of dealing with past indescretions really, but that doesn't really have any influence on the fact that EA is the largest dev/publisher the worlds ever seen, they couldn't have got there if they'd gone about business the SOE way, as I said, SOE is the ONLY Sony division I can think of that isn't a world leader within the entire Sony corps umbrella. They've got funding totals to reflect the fact their part of Sony, they've got IP licenses other companies can only dream of and yet they can only maintain an "also ran" status within the industry as a whole.
...The spread of secondary and latterly of tertiary education has created a large population of people, often with well developed literary and scholarly tastes, who have been educated far beyond their capacity to undertake analytical thought.
EA customer here.. go read the boards..(what few of them exist)
Been screwed with more by EA then by sony. (for now)
Here is my criteria for gaming companies these days considering what happens with them
1) are they capable of keeping my credit card info safe..
2) thats it because that is the only thing that with all the crappy customer support I have received from all of them is about all that I can expect so go read #1.. the rest is the same in every company I have had to do business with for a game they have that I want to play.
I don't buy EA, I don't buy SOE... pretty simple way of dealing with past indescretions really, but that doesn't really have any influence on the fact that EA is the largest dev/publisher the worlds ever seen, they couldn't have got there if they'd gone about business the SOE way, as I said, SOE is the ONLY Sony division I can think of that isn't a world leader within the entire Sony corps umbrella. They've got funding totals to reflect the fact their part of Sony, they've got IP licenses other companies can only dream of and yet they can only maintain an "also ran" status within the industry as a whole.
I play games (i'm beginning to think i'm like the only gamer on these forums actually). They make products I like and so I buy them because I enjoy the social element of online games and for me they present a better entertainment then anything else movies included minus the shenanigans that they all have with revamps.. (i think the only game i ever played that was not revamped was Lineage 2 but they are the ones I wont do business with because of a credit card issue with hacking they had as a result of something that was on their official site .. and i wont go any further then that..) Anyhow sony's gaming branch is just that. Its a volatile market and mmorpg;s are probably the worste not to mention its saturated. They have made a few other nasty investments the blue ray stuff as well not sure how that works but it goes on computers now... and then they did the root kit thing for their cd's. So sony has a history of doing funny things. ON that note however if they have a product I want that no one else has like any normal person I buy it..
SWG's history is going to be brought up as soon as BioWare's MMO is officially announced. A lot more people will bring up LEC's portion of the blame for SWG's current state. LEC's official position on SWG is "Talk to SOE about it". There will be more than a few LEC folks promoting BioWare's MMO, so LEC will have a public face, and as such, will see much of the backlash towards SWG that they have avoided so far. Everything that went wrong with SWG will be brought up.
EA is nowhere near as Bad as SOE when it comes to screwing their customers. EA is very bad about screwing the developers it buys up, but they don't run around insulting the customers they upset by doing so afterwards, or try to blaim their customers for it. EA is also much more likely to shut down an MMO that is doing poorly, as opposed to screwing over their customers by revamping the game out from under them. SWG wouldn't be the lightning rod it currently is if the game was shut down instead of revamped. Shutting SWG down would have been a better business decision, and a much better PR decision, than the revamp was.
Have you seen the recent EA land mess? thats almost identical in every way to SWG.
They decided they were going to try to compete with second life. Did a revamp with the same customers in place, but they did something that is worse in my opinion (which I hope is take just as that). After taking people's money they about 8 montsh maybe at tops shut the entire EA land project down. They refunded some money but not all and gave free pogo time to the subscribers. The subscriber base like the SWG subscriber base was not tha large 200k if your lucky. So they attempted to screw a minority in order to get a majority. It failed miserabely worse and ended up in the entire thing being shut down. Customers in many cases lots a bundle of money as it was using a the same model as second life and so people were treating it like second life. EA land just after converting this thing to a basic microtransaction system with a two tier membership system and stuff shut the doors in the customers faces. That's just recent as in well 30 days maybe (i can't remember july first or august first was the shut down date).
The Sims Online was under 10K subscribers. EA Land was the same game with a different payment model, plus features add to, not replacing, what was already in the game. EA Land was a free to play RMT game. EA Land wasn't a complete game revamp. EA even (somewhat) compensated their customers, by offering them a $15 discount at the EA Store, or a free month Club Pogo membership. They also annoounced both the EA Land change and the closing of the game, well in advance (the shutdown announcement was made 60 days prior to the actual shutdown date). The whole EA Land concept was an attempt to revitalize the game for the folks who play it, with the hopes of attracting more people. The whole thing was basically the exact opposite of what happened with the NGE.
SOE is still at the bottom where ethics are concerned.
SWG's history is going to be brought up as soon as BioWare's MMO is officially announced. A lot more people will bring up LEC's portion of the blame for SWG's current state. LEC's official position on SWG is "Talk to SOE about it". There will be more than a few LEC folks promoting BioWare's MMO, so LEC will have a public face, and as such, will see much of the backlash towards SWG that they have avoided so far. Everything that went wrong with SWG will be brought up.
EA is nowhere near as Bad as SOE when it comes to screwing their customers. EA is very bad about screwing the developers it buys up, but they don't run around insulting the customers they upset by doing so afterwards, or try to blaim their customers for it. EA is also much more likely to shut down an MMO that is doing poorly, as opposed to screwing over their customers by revamping the game out from under them. SWG wouldn't be the lightning rod it currently is if the game was shut down instead of revamped. Shutting SWG down would have been a better business decision, and a much better PR decision, than the revamp was.
This post is a joke right? I sure hope it is.
I take it you havent shelled out yearly for Madden games? Or any of the other various sports titles they make a killing off of?
Have to upgrade yearly...and each yr they ship out buggy games with very little additions. Other than team rosters which they could update online...instead they make ya pay 50 per year to get.
My 08 NCAA crashes nearly everytime I play an extended game(20 min quarters). Doesnt happen in any other games...just this one. Not the disk...I exchanged it. Could it be what was explained on the brds? That if you have other EA games saved on the hard disk(Xbox) that it is the problem?
I dont know...didnt bother to find out as dont care to delete all my other saved material. There is no doubt though this game shipped bugged...not to mention the various other things I have encountered since I started playing console games again about 3 yrs ago.
EA is the epitome of the word "crooks". With them holding the exclusive NCAA/NFL licenses though, sports gamers like myself have no choice but to deal with em. At least when I was spending 30 bucks for EQ expansions I felt like I was getting something.
Man this forum is always good for a laugh.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Well now that SOE is part of SCE it must stand out when research is made into their market penetration. I would be disappointed in Sony if someone didn't take a look at SOE's line up, see that SWG has 1% of the subscriber total that WoW has and ask themselves "what the fuck are you boys doing down there?!"
...The spread of secondary and latterly of tertiary education has created a large population of people, often with well developed literary and scholarly tastes, who have been educated far beyond their capacity to undertake analytical thought.
3 Pacific islands, a small tank and a cruise ship....
ok serious stuff now.
i want a classic server
massive marketings campaing (must be a re-release of the game)
everyone gets the first month free after purchase (no credit card required)
first 6 months are at half price ($7.99 roughly per month)
vets get a permanent discount ($7.99 per month instead of $14.99 a month)
the current dev team is fired and a new one brought in
i recon if they did all that i would come back (and with that marketing campaign hopefully plenty of other people) and i think that will last around 6 months before they make some stupid change and screw the play base again.
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds
-Solid non level based game
-Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
SWG's history is going to be brought up as soon as BioWare's MMO is officially announced. A lot more people will bring up LEC's portion of the blame for SWG's current state. LEC's official position on SWG is "Talk to SOE about it". There will be more than a few LEC folks promoting BioWare's MMO, so LEC will have a public face, and as such, will see much of the backlash towards SWG that they have avoided so far. Everything that went wrong with SWG will be brought up.
EA is nowhere near as Bad as SOE when it comes to screwing their customers. EA is very bad about screwing the developers it buys up, but they don't run around insulting the customers they upset by doing so afterwards, or try to blaim their customers for it. EA is also much more likely to shut down an MMO that is doing poorly, as opposed to screwing over their customers by revamping the game out from under them. SWG wouldn't be the lightning rod it currently is if the game was shut down instead of revamped. Shutting SWG down would have been a better business decision, and a much better PR decision, than the revamp was.
Have you seen the recent EA land mess? thats almost identical in every way to SWG.
They decided they were going to try to compete with second life. Did a revamp with the same customers in place, but they did something that is worse in my opinion (which I hope is take just as that). After taking people's money they about 8 montsh maybe at tops shut the entire EA land project down. They refunded some money but not all and gave free pogo time to the subscribers. The subscriber base like the SWG subscriber base was not tha large 200k if your lucky. So they attempted to screw a minority in order to get a majority. It failed miserabely worse and ended up in the entire thing being shut down. Customers in many cases lots a bundle of money as it was using a the same model as second life and so people were treating it like second life. EA land just after converting this thing to a basic microtransaction system with a two tier membership system and stuff shut the doors in the customers faces. That's just recent as in well 30 days maybe (i can't remember july first or august first was the shut down date).
The Sims Online was under 10K subscribers. EA Land was the same game with a different payment model, plus features add to, not replacing, what was already in the game. EA Land was a free to play RMT game. EA Land wasn't a complete game revamp. EA even (somewhat) compensated their customers, by offering them a $15 discount at the EA Store, or a free month Club Pogo membership. They also annoounced both the EA Land change and the closing of the game, well in advance (the shutdown announcement was made 60 days prior to the actual shutdown date). The whole EA Land concept was an attempt to revitalize the game for the folks who play it, with the hopes of attracting more people. The whole thing was basically the exact opposite of what happened with the NGE.
SOE is still at the bottom where ethics are concerned.
I was one of those subscribers enough said. Having been through both and lost no money with sony and lost money with these guys and find that after all that crap they pulled they shut it down PLUS you have to phone and pay a long distance phone bill to cancel stuff PLUS the fact that i have a two year old customer support ticket up with them leaves no doubt in my mind that they are as bad if not worse then sony. This is something people who have only played sony games will be finding out soon enough assuming this kotor online thing is real... The warmhammer crowd will be interesting to watch too :P . EA is pretty damned bad at least sony eventually answers my tickets. I can't say the same for EA. I do however have some free pogo time that i dont want to show for it all. lol
Well there's probably people that had a years subscription to SWG on the strength of Smed's "The CU is here to stay" speech after the NGE hit, they could have been stung for $150. I can't recall any instance that EA have managed to gouge that sort of amount while blatantly lying.
...The spread of secondary and latterly of tertiary education has created a large population of people, often with well developed literary and scholarly tastes, who have been educated far beyond their capacity to undertake analytical thought.
SWG's history is going to be brought up as soon as BioWare's MMO is officially announced. A lot more people will bring up LEC's portion of the blame for SWG's current state. LEC's official position on SWG is "Talk to SOE about it". There will be more than a few LEC folks promoting BioWare's MMO, so LEC will have a public face, and as such, will see much of the backlash towards SWG that they have avoided so far. Everything that went wrong with SWG will be brought up.
EA is nowhere near as Bad as SOE when it comes to screwing their customers. EA is very bad about screwing the developers it buys up, but they don't run around insulting the customers they upset by doing so afterwards, or try to blaim their customers for it. EA is also much more likely to shut down an MMO that is doing poorly, as opposed to screwing over their customers by revamping the game out from under them. SWG wouldn't be the lightning rod it currently is if the game was shut down instead of revamped. Shutting SWG down would have been a better business decision, and a much better PR decision, than the revamp was.
Have you seen the recent EA land mess? thats almost identical in every way to SWG.
They decided they were going to try to compete with second life. Did a revamp with the same customers in place, but they did something that is worse in my opinion (which I hope is take just as that). After taking people's money they about 8 montsh maybe at tops shut the entire EA land project down. They refunded some money but not all and gave free pogo time to the subscribers. The subscriber base like the SWG subscriber base was not tha large 200k if your lucky. So they attempted to screw a minority in order to get a majority. It failed miserabely worse and ended up in the entire thing being shut down. Customers in many cases lots a bundle of money as it was using a the same model as second life and so people were treating it like second life. EA land just after converting this thing to a basic microtransaction system with a two tier membership system and stuff shut the doors in the customers faces. That's just recent as in well 30 days maybe (i can't remember july first or august first was the shut down date).
The Sims Online was under 10K subscribers. EA Land was the same game with a different payment model, plus features add to, not replacing, what was already in the game. EA Land was a free to play RMT game. EA Land wasn't a complete game revamp. EA even (somewhat) compensated their customers, by offering them a $15 discount at the EA Store, or a free month Club Pogo membership. They also annoounced both the EA Land change and the closing of the game, well in advance (the shutdown announcement was made 60 days prior to the actual shutdown date). The whole EA Land concept was an attempt to revitalize the game for the folks who play it, with the hopes of attracting more people. The whole thing was basically the exact opposite of what happened with the NGE.
SOE is still at the bottom where ethics are concerned.
I was one of those subscribers enough said. Having been through both and lost no money with sony and lost money with these guys and find that after all that crap they pulled they shut it down PLUS you have to phone and pay a long distance phone bill to cancel stuff PLUS the fact that i have a two year old customer support ticket up with them leaves no doubt in my mind that they are as bad if not worse then sony. This is something people who have only played sony games will be finding out soon enough assuming this kotor online thing is real... The warmhammer crowd will be interesting to watch too :P . EA is pretty damned bad at least sony eventually answers my tickets. I can't say the same for EA. I do however have some free pogo time that i dont want to show for it all. lol
and what has all this personal stuff got to do with the topic of what could they do to get people back, or the subtopic of whether or not LA had a great deal to do with the NGE?
fishermage.blogspot.com