ideally national governments are created for positive results. today, I wouldn't go as far as to say that we have the ideal government/laws... it's way off. but, I still think it's better than anarchy.
I'm a little confused here, now i've never been to the United States but when someone mentions 'socialism' do a lot of people connect that instantaneously to 'Communism'? Lets be fair everyone knows the thoughts that communism provokes when confronted with the American dream :P But socialism is not communsim, i mean to lean towards the left is not to throw caution to the wind and become a commy. As they say the cold war is over (well for the most part anyway but thats a different matter). Personally from the outside looking in you Americans dont have it so great, free helath care for example. Now you may have fantastic private hospitals, champion if your rich but if your poor your screwed. I think Obama would be good for America and also for the image of America (dont get me wrong i'm not saying Obama will bring free health care thats a completly different point). I think it's about time you lot got away from red-neck image of leadership you have over there.
Marx believed that state control of production (socialism) was a necessary first step. Workers would need re-education under socialism to move them away from selfish capitalist ideas, and this might take many years of state control. But eventually a country could move to true communism, where the 'state' would disappear
The term 'socialism' refers to a theory of government where the state owns and administers all production and distribution of goods. There is no private property
The term 'capitalism' refers to an economic system where there is private or corporate ownership of goods, and decisions about production and distribution are made by the owners, as determined by prices and demand set in a free market.
In their own words, Marx and Engels felt that the following steps would be necessary:
Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax. Abolition of all rights of inheritance. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels. Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan. Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production
Marx states in the Manifesto of the Communist Party:
You must, therefore, confess that by "individual" you mean no other person than the bourgeois, than the middle-class owner of property. This person must indeed, be swept out of the way, and made impossible. (Published by Progress Publishers, Moscow, 1973 edition, page 66)
THE CREATION OF SOCIALISM
A successful revolution, the establishment of the Dictatorship of the Proletariat, the Destruction of the Capitalist State and the Liquidation of the Bourgeoisie do not lead directly to Communism. There is an additional stage through which society must pass before Communism emerges. This state is known as Socialism
The Communists often refer to their own special brand of socialism as "the first stage of Communism."
The slogan of Communism is: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need," whereas that of Socialism is: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his work
As you can see Socialism is merely a bridge to Communism. And Communism destroys the individual.
And that is why many Americans find socialism unacceptable.
Honestly Thrakk, I trust our government with nukes more then I trust them with my tax dollars. They've only used them once since they invented them; yet they have yet to manage our taxes adiquately. After all, 20 years ago our deficet was just topping a billion, now it's in the trillions. BTW, it's not the weapons you know about that you should be scared of, it's the ones you don't know about that should be scaring the shit out of you. If you really think that nukes are the scarey weapons then you should use your imagination. When developing a weapon it's not about what can you make it's about what can you imagine. If you can think it, you can make it.
You forget that the deficit increases when people pay less taxes: How else do we pay off the national debt? With money we borrow from communist China? The national debt is a collective debt of every single person in the USA.
Frankly, Im scared that McCain will start World War 3 with material gains as his second war objective.
Funny, I though the deficet increased when governments do things like borrow money from banks for things like wars, or from borrowing from other countries, or by printing a half a trillion dollars in fresh currency and steam rolling inflation making our dollar less valued.
I had no idea that I was actually increasing the national debt by paying my taxes every year. Interesting.
How exactly does a country spending money they don't have equate to a collective debt created by people paying less taxes? When exactly did the government give us billions in tax relief? I must be paying my taxes wrong.
In general tax revenues increase with an increase in GDP and expenditures fall because of the decrease in unemployment and welfare cost so, all else being unchanged, the deficit will decrease , and the decrease will be bigger than the revenue increase. (i.e. tax goes up, deficit goes down)
certain facts about the United States national debt stand out:
1. Since the Neo-Conservative movement has become the dominant force in the Republican Party the national debt has grown and continues to grow at an unsustainable rate, by any measure you care to use.
2. Experience has shown that “trickle down tax cuts” only work to concentrate the nation’s wealth into fewer hands and never help to rebound the economy.
3. Mr. Bush has no viable plan to deal with the debt he has already created, and we cannot count on him to contain government spending in the future. (Perhaps the new Congress will help him here.)
4. The only time we have seen national debt reduction in the past 60 years was when Democrats were totally in charge of our government or when one party was in the White House and another ran Congress.
5. In the past 60 years when Republicans were in control of the presidency and both Houses of Congress, government spending was never reduced. The last time a Republican Congress reduced the national debt was in 1947, under Truman’s leadership.
6. The last time the debt was reduced was in 1961 during President Kennedy’s first year in office. It has been almost a half century, 46 years, since this nation has paid down any of its exponentially increasing debt. (Had President Bill Clinton been in office one more year we would probably have seen a debt decrease in 2001.)
Relatively recent history tells us that there is a simple solution to the growing debt problem: Congress must adhere to a ‘pay as you go’ rule regardless of the party in control. Unfortunately it requires a President like Bill Clinton, who was truly committed to balancing the budget, to lead the Congress, regardless of the party in charge, to do the right thing for the future of the nation.
Fortunately our nation is fundamentally strong and it has always had the strength to overcome bad presidents and their failed economic and foreign policies. Our economy can and will endure the downward vortex of this misguided Neo-Conservative trend as well. However, for the sake of our nation, our jobs, ours and our children’s future let us all hope that we see an end to the dominance of the short sighted, Middle Class-killing, Neo-Conservative economic polices soon.
its embarrassing that so many Republicans are still in denial that their party has continually stood for one position yet when elected done the exact opposite. The last three Republicans have all ran office in deficits, not one single "small government conservative" has ran a surplus at least once
Except it didn't take me all day to make some stupid picture.
When was the last time you saw a McCain ad that wasn't an attack ad on Obama? When can he have ads about his own stances?
the pink brain was obviously made by a democrat .... look at the quality of it. BTW John kerry a democrat just attacked bush and didnt do anything else, it isnt just Mccain.
Playing: EVE Online Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2 KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
Sam makes $18,000 per year and cannot afford health care for himself or his family. One morning Sam wakes up with a pain in his stomach. Thinking it was probably the beef-a-roni he had for dinner, he takes a shot of Maalox and heads on to work. A couple of weeks go by without incident, when Sam again gets this pain in his stomach. He grabs a pack of Rolaids from the roach coach, pops a few Excedrin and gets back to work. A couple more weeks go by when this recurring pain hits him again. Sam thinks "I wonder if I should see a doctor about this" and then thinks about the $200 dollars it would cost for a doctor visit, the hours he'd miss from work, his bank balance of $127.82 and realizes he can't afford to go. Sam stops off at the local drug store on his way home from work and buys a large bottle of Rolaids, more Maalox, and some Aspirin.
At first the pains came a couple times per month, then every week, soon every day, until it was several times per day. This cycle continues for a few months until Sam is finally eating 2 packs of Rolaids and drinking nearly a full bottle of Maalox each day -although he hasn't missed a single day of work. Even though the pain is excruciating, Sam somehow finds a way to bare it, having accepted the fact that he cannot afford to see a doctor, as it would deprive his family of food or electricity. When Sam collapses in his kitchen floor late one night his wife calls the ambulance and they rush him to the ER. The diagnosis is Pancreatitis.
Sam now has to have his gallbladder removed, requiring a major surgery, and will be taking medication for the rest of his life. Why? Because the opportunity for affordable preventative medicine wasn't available. Obviously Sam can't afford the hospital bill for the treatment he received (lowlife deadbeat right?), so the bill will be covered by the hospital. Don't worry about the hospital though, they will make up the loss by hiking the prices for anesthesia, or pillows, or bedpans, or Tylenol for the next few dozen patients' insurance companies to pay.
So no, there is no such thing as 'free health care'. People who have insurance pay for everyone else anyway. The difference with universal health care is the conditions will rarely become catastrophic. Universal health care will save trillions of dollars in the long run.
everyone says that until you actually ask how they save it? usually the outcome is by lowering the quality of care. so when his income is cut from 18k to 14k a year to pay for it , how does that improve it?
Well, under Obama's plan, he would receieve a tax cut, considering his pay scale.
However, seeing as how Sam is a poor white trash redneck, he will probably be voting against his best interest and instead pulling the lever for Bob Barr.
where does the money come from to pay for it ? either its passed back on to the citizen as a tax or its borrowed form china. neither option really helps the economy at all.
and both lead to a lower quality of medical care recieved by the public.
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
Clearly we really aren't free. We are, in fact, ridiculously expensive. That's why I'm voting for Obama, so I can get someone else willing to work harder to insure myself against damage.
fixed
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
Originally posted by Darcknyght just shows you how the government controls everything in this country and we are not free. This is utterly retarded and we should have not grudge with iran other then they just want us out of the middle east where we do not belong.
You've obviously never set foot in a country that has an oppressive government. You think our government has eliminated our freedoms? Have a conversation with the people of Eastern Europe sometime, or an immigrant who escaped the brutality of central Africa.
lmao I love lay Americans. Their insight is always so profound and well informed.
Clearly we really aren't free. We are, in fact, ridiculously expensive. That's why I'm voting for Obama, so I can get someone else willing to work harder to insure myself against damage.
fixed
Being born into fortune and letting interest accumulate isn't work.
you do know that keeping a millon dollars is harder than earning it right?
Thats why you see so many lotto winners filing bankruptcy so soon after wining millions...
But if you call being raised in a trailer park in Lousiana ( tho i WAS born in Texas !!! so im not an adopted Texan) being born into fortune then so be it.
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
Originally posted by Darcknyght just shows you how the government controls everything in this country and we are not free. This is utterly retarded and we should have not grudge with iran other then they just want us out of the middle east where we do not belong.
You've obviously never set foot in a country that has an oppressive government. You think our government has eliminated our freedoms? Have a conversation with the people of Eastern Europe sometime, or an immigrant who escaped the brutality of central Africa.
lmao I love lay Americans. Their insight is always so profound and well informed.
So er... what countries with oppressive governments have you set foot in?
How many Eastern Europeans have you spoken to this week? Judging by your comments on oppression alone, none.
Sam makes $18,000 per year and cannot afford health care for himself or his family. One morning Sam wakes up with a pain in his stomach. Thinking it was probably the beef-a-roni he had for dinner, he takes a shot of Maalox and heads on to work. A couple of weeks go by without incident, when Sam again gets this pain in his stomach. He grabs a pack of Rolaids from the roach coach, pops a few Excedrin and gets back to work. A couple more weeks go by when this recurring pain hits him again. Sam thinks "I wonder if I should see a doctor about this" and then thinks about the $200 dollars it would cost for a doctor visit, the hours he'd miss from work, his bank balance of $127.82 and realizes he can't afford to go. Sam stops off at the local drug store on his way home from work and buys a large bottle of Rolaids, more Maalox, and some Aspirin. At first the pains came a couple times per month, then every week, soon every day, until it was several times per day. This cycle continues for a few months until Sam is finally eating 2 packs of Rolaids and drinking nearly a full bottle of Maalox each day -although he hasn't missed a single day of work. Even though the pain is excruciating, Sam somehow finds a way to bare it, having accepted the fact that he cannot afford to see a doctor, as it would deprive his family of food or electricity. When Sam collapses in his kitchen floor late one night his wife calls the ambulance and they rush him to the ER. The diagnosis is Pancreatitis. Sam now has to have his gallbladder removed, requiring a major surgery, and will be taking medication for the rest of his life. Why? Because the opportunity for affordable preventative medicine wasn't available. Obviously Sam can't afford the hospital bill for the treatment he received (lowlife deadbeat right?), so the bill will be covered by the hospital. Don't worry about the hospital though, they will make up the loss by hiking the prices for anesthesia, or pillows, or bedpans, or Tylenol for the next few dozen patients' insurance companies to pay.
So no, there is no such thing as 'free health care'. People who have insurance pay for everyone else anyway. The difference with universal health care is the conditions will rarely become catastrophic. Universal health care will save trillions of dollars in the long run.
After speaking with his pal Sam about the crappy job he took, Bob finds a job that pays 18k a year and provides insurance. Bob feels ill one day, calls in sick and heads off to the doctors office to pay his $20 co-pay. Bob finds out he had gas and ends up going to work anyway since he's not lazy and he doesn't expect others to foot his bill... plus he knows the government SS plan isn't going to cover his retirement and he can't really afford to miss a full days wage.
After Sam passes away and his newly made widow has to find a job, she goes to work at the same company as Bob... she begins to wonder why she was ever with a loser like Sam in the first place. Soon she and Bob are having a fling and end up retiring off of their combined 401k earnings, matched by their company, on a sunny beach somewhere.
Meanwhile, Sam's old boss sees that all the quality, hard working employees are heading over to the competition due to the great benefits they're offering, and ultimatly either steps up his own company's benefits or goes out of business altogether.
Comments
I'm about ready to call it.
Democracy is indispensable to socialism.
Vladimir Lenin
The goal of socialism is communism.
Vladimir Lenin
Democracy is the road to socialism.
Karl Marx
Marx believed that state control of production (socialism) was a necessary first step. Workers would need re-education under socialism to move them away from selfish capitalist ideas, and this might take many years of state control. But eventually a country could move to true communism, where the 'state' would disappear
http://www.worsleyschool.net/socialarts/marxengels/page.html
The term 'socialism' refers to a theory of government where the state owns and administers all production and distribution of goods. There is no private property
The term 'capitalism' refers to an economic system where there is private or corporate ownership of goods, and decisions about production and distribution are made by the owners, as determined by prices and demand set in a free market.
In their own words, Marx and Engels felt that the following steps would be necessary:
Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.
Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state.
Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.
Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production
http://www.schwarzreport.org/Essays/whyckill.htm
Marx states in the Manifesto of the Communist Party:
THE CREATION OF SOCIALISM
A successful revolution, the establishment of the Dictatorship of the Proletariat, the Destruction of the Capitalist State and the Liquidation of the Bourgeoisie do not lead directly to Communism. There is an additional stage through which society must pass before Communism emerges. This state is known as Socialism
The Communists often refer to their own special brand of socialism as "the first stage of Communism."
The slogan of Communism is: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need," whereas that of Socialism is: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his work
As you can see Socialism is merely a bridge to Communism. And Communism destroys the individual.
And that is why many Americans find socialism unacceptable.
You forget that the deficit increases when people pay less taxes: How else do we pay off the national debt? With money we borrow from communist China? The national debt is a collective debt of every single person in the USA.
Frankly, Im scared that McCain will start World War 3 with material gains as his second war objective.
Funny, I though the deficet increased when governments do things like borrow money from banks for things like wars, or from borrowing from other countries, or by printing a half a trillion dollars in fresh currency and steam rolling inflation making our dollar less valued.
I had no idea that I was actually increasing the national debt by paying my taxes every year. Interesting.
How exactly does a country spending money they don't have equate to a collective debt created by people paying less taxes? When exactly did the government give us billions in tax relief? I must be paying my taxes wrong.
In general tax revenues increase with an increase in GDP and expenditures fall because of the decrease in unemployment and welfare cost so, all else being unchanged, the deficit will decrease , and the decrease will be bigger than the revenue increase. (i.e. tax goes up, deficit goes down)
certain facts about the United States national debt stand out:
1. Since the Neo-Conservative movement has become the dominant force in the Republican Party the national debt has grown and continues to grow at an unsustainable rate, by any measure you care to use.
2. Experience has shown that “trickle down tax cuts” only work to concentrate the nation’s wealth into fewer hands and never help to rebound the economy.
3. Mr. Bush has no viable plan to deal with the debt he has already created, and we cannot count on him to contain government spending in the future. (Perhaps the new Congress will help him here.)
4. The only time we have seen national debt reduction in the past 60 years was when Democrats were totally in charge of our government or when one party was in the White House and another ran Congress.
5. In the past 60 years when Republicans were in control of the presidency and both Houses of Congress, government spending was never reduced. The last time a Republican Congress reduced the national debt was in 1947, under Truman’s leadership.
6. The last time the debt was reduced was in 1961 during President Kennedy’s first year in office. It has been almost a half century, 46 years, since this nation has paid down any of its exponentially increasing debt. (Had President Bill Clinton been in office one more year we would probably have seen a debt decrease in 2001.)
Relatively recent history tells us that there is a simple solution to the growing debt problem: Congress must adhere to a ‘pay as you go’ rule regardless of the party in control. Unfortunately it requires a President like Bill Clinton, who was truly committed to balancing the budget, to lead the Congress, regardless of the party in charge, to do the right thing for the future of the nation.
Fortunately our nation is fundamentally strong and it has always had the strength to overcome bad presidents and their failed economic and foreign policies. Our economy can and will endure the downward vortex of this misguided Neo-Conservative trend as well. However, for the sake of our nation, our jobs, ours and our children’s future let us all hope that we see an end to the dominance of the short sighted, Middle Class-killing, Neo-Conservative economic polices soon.
its embarrassing that so many Republicans are still in denial that their party has continually stood for one position yet when elected done the exact opposite. The last three Republicans have all ran office in deficits, not one single "small government conservative" has ran a surplus at least once
DO THE MATH www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29205-2004Jul30.html
Recorded Deficit Expected in 2009 www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2008-07-27-deficit_N.htm
If the last three Republican presidents left office with a huge deficit, then will McCain continue tradition?
Except it didn't take me all day to make some stupid picture.
When was the last time you saw a McCain ad that wasn't an attack ad on Obama? When can he have ads about his own stances?
the pink brain was obviously made by a democrat .... look at the quality of it. BTW John kerry a democrat just attacked bush and didnt do anything else, it isnt just Mccain.
Playing: EVE Online
Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online
Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2
KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
Sam makes $18,000 per year and cannot afford health care for himself or his family. One morning Sam wakes up with a pain in his stomach. Thinking it was probably the beef-a-roni he had for dinner, he takes a shot of Maalox and heads on to work. A couple of weeks go by without incident, when Sam again gets this pain in his stomach. He grabs a pack of Rolaids from the roach coach, pops a few Excedrin and gets back to work. A couple more weeks go by when this recurring pain hits him again. Sam thinks "I wonder if I should see a doctor about this" and then thinks about the $200 dollars it would cost for a doctor visit, the hours he'd miss from work, his bank balance of $127.82 and realizes he can't afford to go. Sam stops off at the local drug store on his way home from work and buys a large bottle of Rolaids, more Maalox, and some Aspirin.
At first the pains came a couple times per month, then every week, soon every day, until it was several times per day. This cycle continues for a few months until Sam is finally eating 2 packs of Rolaids and drinking nearly a full bottle of Maalox each day -although he hasn't missed a single day of work. Even though the pain is excruciating, Sam somehow finds a way to bare it, having accepted the fact that he cannot afford to see a doctor, as it would deprive his family of food or electricity. When Sam collapses in his kitchen floor late one night his wife calls the ambulance and they rush him to the ER. The diagnosis is Pancreatitis.
Sam now has to have his gallbladder removed, requiring a major surgery, and will be taking medication for the rest of his life. Why? Because the opportunity for affordable preventative medicine wasn't available. Obviously Sam can't afford the hospital bill for the treatment he received (lowlife deadbeat right?), so the bill will be covered by the hospital. Don't worry about the hospital though, they will make up the loss by hiking the prices for anesthesia, or pillows, or bedpans, or Tylenol for the next few dozen patients' insurance companies to pay.
So no, there is no such thing as 'free health care'. People who have insurance pay for everyone else anyway. The difference with universal health care is the conditions will rarely become catastrophic. Universal health care will save trillions of dollars in the long run.
everyone says that until you actually ask how they save it?
usually the outcome is by lowering the quality of care.
so when his income is cut from 18k to 14k a year to pay for it , how does that improve it?
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
Well, under Obama's plan, he would receieve a tax cut, considering his pay scale.
However, seeing as how Sam is a poor white trash redneck, he will probably be voting against his best interest and instead pulling the lever for Bob Barr.
WoW, a tax cut on his tax rise.
Bonus.
where does the money come from to pay for it ? either its passed back on to the citizen as a tax or its borrowed form china. neither option really helps the economy at all.
and both lead to a lower quality of medical care recieved by the public.
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
fixed
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
You've obviously never set foot in a country that has an oppressive government. You think our government has eliminated our freedoms? Have a conversation with the people of Eastern Europe sometime, or an immigrant who escaped the brutality of central Africa.
lmao I love lay Americans. Their insight is always so profound and well informed.
fixed
Being born into fortune and letting interest accumulate isn't work.
you do know that keeping a millon dollars is harder than earning it right?
Thats why you see so many lotto winners filing bankruptcy so soon after wining millions...
But if you call being raised in a trailer park in Lousiana ( tho i WAS born in Texas !!! so im not an adopted Texan) being born into fortune then so be it.
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
You've obviously never set foot in a country that has an oppressive government. You think our government has eliminated our freedoms? Have a conversation with the people of Eastern Europe sometime, or an immigrant who escaped the brutality of central Africa.
lmao I love lay Americans. Their insight is always so profound and well informed.
So er... what countries with oppressive governments have you set foot in?
How many Eastern Europeans have you spoken to this week? Judging by your comments on oppression alone, none.
After speaking with his pal Sam about the crappy job he took, Bob finds a job that pays 18k a year and provides insurance. Bob feels ill one day, calls in sick and heads off to the doctors office to pay his $20 co-pay. Bob finds out he had gas and ends up going to work anyway since he's not lazy and he doesn't expect others to foot his bill... plus he knows the government SS plan isn't going to cover his retirement and he can't really afford to miss a full days wage.
After Sam passes away and his newly made widow has to find a job, she goes to work at the same company as Bob... she begins to wonder why she was ever with a loser like Sam in the first place. Soon she and Bob are having a fling and end up retiring off of their combined 401k earnings, matched by their company, on a sunny beach somewhere.
Meanwhile, Sam's old boss sees that all the quality, hard working employees are heading over to the competition due to the great benefits they're offering, and ultimatly either steps up his own company's benefits or goes out of business altogether.