Originally posted by Lithdov I'm merely discussing the situation as I've seen it change over the years. People back then weren't offended or outraged by the idea of death having some kind of bite. Because it made the game more fun.
Originally posted by WSIMike
Denial in action.
That would sum up your attempts to negate all your previous elitist comments, yes.
Oohhhhh... nice try. But... sorry... nope. I'm not denying anything. I've been very up-front with what I said, and what context I said it in.
That people are arrogant enough to believe that they know my meaning more than I do... well... that says a lot right there.
Originally posted by WSIMike
No... players didn't "put up with that crap because there was no other alternative" - We had an alternative... To not play them at all.
You still have that option. Nobody's forcing you to play WAR. No death penalty is not going to change, no matter how much you and all the pining-for-the-glory-days of UO or EQ masochists bitch about it.
Right you are... I don't have to play it. But to play or not isn't what the discussion is about, now is it?
But... bitching? Nahhh... Bitching is what resulted in companies reducing failure/death in a MMO to a mere inconvenience in the first place. And as I've said before.. there are *still* people who claim *that's* too harsh... having to repair gear or spend some time to get back to where they died is just a total kill-joy.
Nowadays, the very thought of any kind of penalty that isn't just a negligible inconvenience is like telling them you're going to stab their puppy to death and make them watch. Apparently to them there should be no failure, ever, in a game. Just unending rewards as far as the eye can see.
Case in point, you yourself described preferring some kind of penalty as "masochistic". That's a pretty heavy label for something that simply promotes playing more carefully and using more strategy instead of just running in, all Leeroy Jenkins style.
What's next... No death... ever? When the mob is about to kill you, it has a change of heart, hands you a health potion and runs away instead, sparing your life? This way no one has to die, no one has to be inconvenienced and there's nothing but warm fuzzies all around?
When does the softening of death in MMOs end? Where do you draw the line?
And back to the "masochism" thing... Nothing masochistic about it at all. It was part of the challenge. You die... you lose xp, or you lose an item... or you get a game over screen and lose the game completely. The point was to play well enough to prevent any of that from happening... or to delay it as long as possible.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Figured I would pop back in here since the thread hasnt died yet. Like I said before, I have played harsh DP's in games and yes, I loved it and will not deny that. Hell, if Asherons Call updated its graphics, whiped the slate clean (character wise), hired the old writers/devs back I would drop WAR in a heartbeat to go back and im REALLY enjoying WAR. OH and they would have to get rid of the retarted ass arc spells, thats when PvP became less about skill and more about who is going to lag first.
I dont mind harsh death penalties in the least. The only thing that pisses me off is the ones that come here like the OP and talk bs about how its not worth playing without harsh DP's. In AC and EQ the game was made where harsh DP's worked. In games like DAoC and WAR harsh DP's just wont work. IMO its not because you wont "learn your class" better or "Wont get the fear feeling" but because your going to die, and die lots. No way around it. You could be the BEST PvP'er and your going to die alot. Just alittle less than the next person.
Need a reason to learn your class to the fullest? Thats why they have a certain feature (unless its been removed and I missed it or they havent said yet) that the top guilds and if I remember right top players in RR rank will be featured in Tier4 keep area's. Your not going to get thoes honors unless you are the best and that takes teamwork and knowing your class AND other classes like the back of your hand.
Anyway this "I'm right and your wrong" crap can stop. Neither side is right or wrong. The only diffrence it one side has more numbers than the other. Some of us are stuck in the middle where we like both ways but understand it has no place in some games and have fun with both. *shrug*
Figured I would pop back in here since the thread hasnt died yet. Like I said before, I have played harsh DP's in games and yes, I loved it and will not deny that. Hell, if Asherons Call updated its graphics, whiped the slate clean (character wise), hired the old writers/devs back I would drop WAR in a heartbeat to go back and im REALLY enjoying WAR. OH and they would have to get rid of the retarted ass arc spells, thats when PvP became less about skill and more about who is going to lag first. I dont mind harsh death penalties in the least. The only thing that pisses me off is the ones that come here like the OP and talk bs about how its not worth playing without harsh DP's. In AC and EQ the game was made where harsh DP's worked. In games like DAoC and WAR harsh DP's just wont work. IMO its not because you wont "learn your class" better or "Wont get the fear feeling" but because your going to die, and die lots. No way around it. You could be the BEST PvP'er and your going to die alot. Just alittle less than the next person. Need a reason to learn your class to the fullest? Thats why they have a certain feature (unless its been removed and I missed it or they havent said yet) that the top guilds and if I remember right top players in RR rank will be featured in Tier4 keep area's. Your not going to get thoes honors unless you are the best and that takes teamwork and knowing your class AND other classes like the back of your hand. Anyway this "I'm right and your wrong" crap can stop. Neither side is right or wrong. The only diffrence it one side has more numbers than the other. Some of us are stuck in the middle where we like both ways but understand it has no place in some games and have fun with both. *shrug*
I actually agree with you on that. I don't think it's necessary and *can* enjoy a game that doesn't have xp loss, etc... as long as there's enough else I like about it. I *prefer* those that do have harsher penalties...
I just don't like the overall affect it's had on players... You try to get people to implement some of the cool strategic features of a game - like Skill Chains in FFXI, or Heroic Opportunities in EQ2.. Things that, some years back, would have been a core part of fighting... and many times now you get "No point... we can just hack at them 'til they're dead. If we die... no big deal, they've practically removed the death penalty".
Well the death "removed penalty" part is true of EQ2... not FFXI. Though they've added features that make the bite less painful in FFXI.. and even *that* little bit, along with "power-leveling", has had a net negative affect over time on how well people play overall. More carelessness, people making mistakes at level 60+ that they should have learned not to make by level 30, etc... But because some power-leveler protected them from mistakes that would normally prove fatal - thus avoiding dying completely - they never learned from them.
I just hate how it turns games with a lot of strategic potential into mere hack-n-slash games. I think that's the core of it right there for me.
It's not like I'm jumping up and down when I die and lose xp... Of course not. I do, though, enjoy that extra "edge" and urgency it provides when you're fighting something tough and know that dying is going to hurt. Maybe you (you in general) have to experience it first hand to really understand the difference.
For me, the intensity of having situations that looked *dire* - a likely group wipe - to see people kick it up a notch, pull together, create strategies *on the fly*, bringing all they knew about their respective class to bear and turning the fight around is incredibly satisfying, and damn fun. They knew death would have a serious sting, and wasn't something to be "ho hum, big deal" about.
By comparison, to be in groups like I've been in lately, where people don't want to do anything but mash buttons and farm xp... and if they get in over their head and die.. pfft... so what?... It's just really anti-climactic and drab. Like, their classes are given these cool abilities that can be combined into lethal attacks... and they couldn't care less. The more xp they can get with the least effort, the better.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Actually, this is what most people like when they have the choice.
Most people don't climb mountains defying the risk of falling, most people don't invest their money in high risk shares, most people want to be caressed and hugged instead of being beaten and yelled at.
That's just the way it is, theres no gamebreaking potential in absolutely NO death penalty. Deathmatch FPS games offer virtually no death, you instantly respawn into the action, yet they are still great fun.
I think what drives most people mad is the claim that death penalty is something that inherently increases/decreases fun in a game. That is not not true. It increases the difficulty level, suspension and complexity, but not at all fun. Nobody would argue that Unreal Tournament players have less fun in their games than EvE players. It's stupid to think so.
Death penalty contributes to the game mechanics overall and is needed in some games (like EvE, the game would just not work with insta respawn). But for Christs sake, it's not at all something that inherently alters the "being fun" potential of a game...
Meridion
EDIT: @WSIMike: The point is, some people like hack and slash games A LOT. so basically, if the game does not force the players to do what you like to do (heroic opportunities e.g.) you are playing the wrong game.
Remember when getting max level was something rare?
Where reaching a goal was difficult and not handed to you?
Those were the days.
The days dedication and commitment were prerequisites for playing an MMO. They are not in the least less fun these days, you just have to accept a game like it is and stop demanding games to be like you want them to be... then all of a sudden games start to be fun again...
Remember when getting max level was something rare?
Where reaching a goal was difficult and not handed to you?
Those were the days.
Yep... that I do.
People weren't concerned about what level cap was, how quickly they could get there and what the most powerful class/build was to play... before they'd even created their first character, much like they do now.
The idea of it taking more than a month or two to reach level cap wasn't considered "too slow"... because leveling was a more passive thing; something that happened while you were enjoying yourself doing everything else along the way.
I remember those times well
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Remember when getting max level was something rare?
Where reaching a goal was difficult and not handed to you?
Those were the days.
The days dedication and commitment were prerequisites for playing an MMO. They are not in the least less fun these days, you just have to accept a game like it is and stop demanding games to be like you want them to be... then all of a sudden games start to be fun again...
Good grief.
Who's making demands?
All I see is someone engaging in a bit of reminiscing.
Lighten up.
And they were no more about dedication and commitment then than they are now... Anyone who seriously believes the older MMOs were somehow "more demanding" needs to check their own total played time and/or look around them once in a while.
You going to tell me that the players who faithfully log in by a certain time, on scheduled nights of the week, to do guild raid runs - and do it for months on end; often leveling numerous characters to "fill in spots as needed", so they can get all their epic gear isn't being dedicated or making a commitment? They do that all the time in WoW.
You telling me that people scheduling their game time across 2-3 nights a week, maybe more, to be available for Rift runs and the like, as I saw people do in LoTRO all the time, isn't "dedication"?
I've seen it in myriad other MMOs that would all certainly qualify as "newer MMOs" cut from the "WoW mold"
It's no different now than it ever was.. people put just as many hundreds or thousands of hours into the newer MMOs as they did into the older ones...
The only difference is how the time is distributed.. In the older games, it was more spread out across the levels.. in WoW and others like it, it's all end-game. In the end, it's still just as much commitment and dedication.
Forget MMOs.. how about a game like Starcraft, or Diablo II? How many hours do you think people dedicate to being committed to those games? Especially if they're part of a clan who plays competitively; not professionally, mind you, but just for fun?
People are going to invest as much time as they're willing into a game, regardless of the game's design, regardless of whether it's 2, 5 or 10 years old, regardless of the level/content distribution.
So please, put the whole "oh, the old games demanded too much time/committment/dedication" thing to rest already. It's absolutely no different with the newer games.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I would just like to see the dumbing down of every new mmo to stop.
More games like eve, and old school everquest would be nice for the players who don't want instant gratification.
They wanna feel an accomplishment when reaching a goal.
Not be huddled up with all the other max levels when they go to a populated zone.
It would be nice for more games with difficulty to make it back on the market... Sure, they might not make as many sales to the masses who want it handed to them after a month, but it would give the consumer more choices for the game play they are looking for.
Remember when getting max level was something rare?
Where reaching a goal was difficult and not handed to you?
Those were the days.
The days dedication and commitment were prerequisites for playing an MMO. They are not in the least less fun these days, you just have to accept a game like it is and stop demanding games to be like you want them to be... then all of a sudden games start to be fun again...
Good grief.
Who's making demands?
All I see is someone engaging in a bit of reminiscing.
Lighten up.
And they were no more about dedication and commitment than they are now...
You going to tell me that the players who log in by a certain time, on scheduled nights of the week, to do their raid runs - and do it for months on end... many times leveling numerous characters to "fill in spots as needed", so they can get all their epic gear isn't being dedicated or making a committment? They do that all the time in WoW.
But you don't have to. That's the big difference. You can still go hardcore crazy dedicating your life to a game, but it's not a prerequisite for having fun.
You telling me that people scheduling their game time across 2-3 nights a week, maybe more, to be available for Rift runs and the like, as I saw people do in LoTRO all the time, isn't "dedication"?
Yes it is, but you don't have to, you can hang out in the Pony, craft, PvMP and still have fun and compete.
I've seen it in myriad other MMOs that would all certainly qualify as "newer MMOs" cut from the "WoW mold"
It's no different now than it ever was.. people put just as many thousands of hours into the newer MMOs as they did into the older ones...
The only difference is how the time is distributed.. In the older games, it was more spread out across the levels.. in WoW and others like it, it's all end-game. In the end, it's still just as much commitment and dedication.
People are going to invest as much time as they want into a game, regardless of the game's design, regardless of the time period, regardless of the level/content distribution.
So please, put the whole "oh, the old games demanded too much time" thing to rest already. It's a disingenuous claim.
No it's not. I said they required dedication and commitment. not time. That's the whole point I'm trying to make here. Modern games, like WAR, will allow people to have fun without planning, much caution and - if they choose - a minimum amount of time.
The problem is, pro death penalty players tend to stamp games with no death penalty as "inherently less fun" which is apparently not true. theres not a whole new generation of MMO players enjoying themselves less than the "generation UO"...
Remember when getting max level was something rare?
Where reaching a goal was difficult and not handed to you?
Those were the days.
You going to tell me that the players who log in by a certain time, on scheduled nights of the week, to do their raid runs - and do it for months on end... many times leveling numerous characters to "fill in spots as needed", so they can get all their epic gear isn't being dedicated or making a committment? They do that all the time in WoW.
But you don't have to. That's the big difference. You can still go hardcore crazy dedicating your life to a game, but it's not a prerequisite for having fun.
You didn't have to in the older games to have fun either.
I honestly don't know what MMOs you're describing, but it's not any of the ones I played... AC1, AC2, Anarchy Online, etc... If I wanted to do quests, I did quests. If I wanted to craft, I crafted... There was absolutely no difference in time commitment to those games than I find in any of the newer ones. If I want to log in for a couple hours and do some quests, and log out... I could do so.
You seem to be assuming a very specific play style in your estimates.... and it's nothing remotely reflecting what my time playing them, or others I knew, was like. You could say we were actually "casual players".
I spent as much or as little time as I wished doing things in those games. If I didn't feel like doing one thing, I could do another.
Yes it is, but you don't have to, you can hang out in the Pony, craft, PvMP and still have fun and compete.
You don't have to in the older MMOs either.
I could PvP, hang out and chat, craft and do all of that in the older MMOs as well. In fact, I did so. And it never required any more dedication or commitment than I've found it to in newer games. I did it for as long as I wished... When I was done... I logged out, or did something else. Simple.
Again... I don't know what you're getting at here, but I'm not seeing anything proving that older MMOs required any more commitment or dedication than the newer ones in terms of similar content.
Perhaps you're considering what people commonly *chose* to do and assuming that you "had" to?
No it's not. I said they required dedication and commitment. not time. That's the whole point I'm trying to make here. Modern games, like WAR, will allow people to have fun without planning, much caution and - if they choose - a minimum amount of time.
Not seeing the point there.
I could log into AO... Request some custom missions at one of many kiosks in Old Athen, or elsewhere. Jump through a few whompas (teleporters)... do the quests... complete them... Get some more... wash rinse repeat. Took all of 5-10 minutes to get started on that. No planning, no "commitment" required. And I had fun.
If I wanted to work on some implants in AO... Simple... get the required items, which never took more than 10-15 minutes to collect, often less. Get the required buffs, find a surgical station and have it. No significant time committment required.
If I wanted to get a group together to do a Vault run or some other activity in AC2.. no problem.. Ask either in my guild, or shout in the broadcast channel... Within 15 minutes, I was in a group, going through the content. If there weren't enough people available.. No problem.. plenty to do solo. Again... no significant time committment.
If I was lazy and just wanted to hang out and chat... I was able to do that in any of the MMOs. No problem.
... I can continue witih the examples, but I think the point's been made.
Unless you're speaking of doing things that typically take a lot of preparation (like raids, etc.. which take a lot of preparation in *any* MMO), there is *plenty* to do and have fun in any of those old MMOs, just as much as in the new ones.
The problem is, pro death penalty players tend to stamp games with no death penalty as "inherently less fun" which is apparently not true. theres not a whole new generation of MMO players enjoying themselves less than the "generation UO"...
Because it's a very different generation of players playing the newer MMOs with very different expectations.
There's entire paragraphs I could write about the differences between them. But I won't...
I'll just put it this way...
You have the old-school MMO players, many of whom are still happily playing the same MMOs they started years ago, with no intention of leaving - no matter what snazzy new game is coming down the pike, vying for their attention.
Meanwhile, you have the post-WoW "new generation" of MMO players. This generation seems to be steadily turning into one of career MMO hoppers. They stick around in a game just long enough to burn through all the content - 2-3 months it seems. Then they declare the game "dead" or "dying", jump ship for whatever the hottest new MMO is... They stick around for a few months, burn through all the content in that game, and get bored. They declare that game "dead" or "dying", and look for the next MMO to jump ship to... ad infinitum.
I think the difference there is very telling of just how the different mindsets affect the individuals' ability to enjoy the game, and which is getting the most enjoyment for their money in the long run.
Just a thought .
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Well obviously nobody cares about the severe death penalty or it would be in-game. Don't like it, move on, it is a game after all; I don't recall Mythic chaining anyone down and telling them they have to play and like it.
If you want a real harsh death penalty, go play Russian Roulet.
I don't know why you guys keep arguing with people like WSIMike. If something about the game doesn't meet their standard then it's crap and only drooling idiots, kids and lesser creatures would ever consider it fun, much less play it. If you try to debate him you're an idiot. If you point out it's just his opinion and he's being an elitist ass, then you're incapable of understanding the true nature of his message and are deserving of nothing but ridicule. There is a perfect reality in their minds that only the true MMO player can comprehend and the rest of you are just ruinous troglodytes to their enlightened world. Anything you say against them is by default, wrong.
MMOs Played: EQ 1&2, DAoC, SWG, Planetside, WoW, GW, CoX, DDO, EVE, Vanguard, TR Playing: WAR Awaiting 40k Online and wishing for Battletech Online
The problem is, pro death penalty players tend to stamp games with no death penalty as "inherently less fun" which is apparently not true. theres not a whole new generation of MMO players enjoying themselves less than the "generation UO"... Because it's a very different generation of players playing the newer MMOs with very different expectations. There's entire paragraphs I could write about the differences between them. But I won't...
I'll just put it this way...
You have the old-school MMO players, many of whom are still happily playing the same MMOs they started years ago, with no intention of leaving - no matter what snazzy new game is coming down the pike, vying for their attention.
Meanwhile, you have the post-WoW "new generation" of MMO players. This generation seems to be steadily turning into one of career MMO hoppers. They stick around in a game just long enough to burn through all the content - 2-3 months it seems. Then they declare the game "dead" or "dying", jump ship for whatever the hottest new MMO is... They stick around for a few months, burn through all the content in that game, and get bored. They declare that game "dead" or "dying", and look for the next MMO to jump ship to... ad infinitum.
I think the difference there is very telling of just how the different mindsets affect the individuals' ability to enjoy the game, and which is getting the most enjoyment for their money in the long run.
Just a thought .
That's what I'm talking about. Veteran players tend to project their issues with newer games and the "cookie cutter no fun"-agenda on the games. _The Games_ need to be sandbox style. _The Games_ need to feature harsh death penalties.
The majority of those people ignores that there are Many quality games out, and people are enjoying them a lot. So it just _might_ have something to do with their own mindset.
Besides, I know that you can do low risk activities in all MMOs, you even could use a MUD as a chat client. I'm talking about, and I thought we were on a common base here, about competetive gameplay. About easy accessibility and a flat learning curve. And as I posted earlier, this is perfect fun in many many shooters. Log on, fight, die, fight, die, log out. fun.
I'll repeat the essence of this: There are a LOT of quality, fun games out. The cookie-cutter-problem is in the heads of the jaded vets.
Wow. On the one hand you say they are his opinions and the other hand you call him names.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
If you have an opinion that there should be no death penalty that's fine. I think your wrong, but your entitled to have that opinion.
If you have an opinion that the game should have a harsh death penalty that's fine too. I think your right, and your entitled to have that opinion.
My argument is that the developer community should try to make alternatives for people who want a more harsh environment. And because world of warcraft makes so much money, you won't see many devs go that route.
They wanna see dollar signs, which is their goal being a business.
It's just a shame that a segment of the gaming community isn't satisfied by newer games because its the older ones with actual difficulty that meet their needs.
I don't know why you guys keep arguing with people like WSIMike. If something about the game doesn't meet their standard then it's crap and only drooling idiots, kids and lesser creatures would ever consider it fun, much less play it. If you try to debate him you're an idiot. If you point out it's just his opinion and he's being an elitist ass, then you're incapable of understanding the true nature of his message and are deserving of nothing but ridicule. There is a perfect reality in their minds that only the true MMO player can comprehend and the rest of you are just ruinous troglodytes to their enlightened world. Anything you say against them is by default, wrong.
I'm argueing because my mining circle is three minutes and I'm not staring at a floating mining ship for three minutes doing nothing ^^... So either I continue reading this book here on the table or I browse these boards and discuss things. ATM, the latter is more fun...
Figured I would pop back in here since the thread hasnt died yet. Like I said before, I have played harsh DP's in games and yes, I loved it and will not deny that. Hell, if Asherons Call updated its graphics, whiped the slate clean (character wise), hired the old writers/devs back I would drop WAR in a heartbeat to go back and im REALLY enjoying WAR. OH and they would have to get rid of the retarted ass arc spells, thats when PvP became less about skill and more about who is going to lag first. I dont mind harsh death penalties in the least. The only thing that pisses me off is the ones that come here like the OP and talk bs about how its not worth playing without harsh DP's. In AC and EQ the game was made where harsh DP's worked. In games like DAoC and WAR harsh DP's just wont work. IMO its not because you wont "learn your class" better or "Wont get the fear feeling" but because your going to die, and die lots. No way around it. You could be the BEST PvP'er and your going to die alot. Just alittle less than the next person. Need a reason to learn your class to the fullest? Thats why they have a certain feature (unless its been removed and I missed it or they havent said yet) that the top guilds and if I remember right top players in RR rank will be featured in Tier4 keep area's. Your not going to get thoes honors unless you are the best and that takes teamwork and knowing your class AND other classes like the back of your hand. Anyway this "I'm right and your wrong" crap can stop. Neither side is right or wrong. The only diffrence it one side has more numbers than the other. Some of us are stuck in the middle where we like both ways but understand it has no place in some games and have fun with both. *shrug*
What pisses me off is people like you who dont read the whole thread and flame the OP.
I am the OP, the whole point of this thread which you can clearly see on Page 1 is I wanted to know what the Death Penatly was... I found out, I stated that I would pass on the game as would gamers like myself that enjoy risk as part of their MMO games. I said the game TO ME would not be fun without a DP, never said WAR would not be fun... Its the people like you and others that come in long after the thread should have died can call me and others with my same opnion an elitiest asshole or a hardcore game because to ME any game without a DP would not be fun. I do think of myself as a hardcore game because of the amount of time I spend playing games and for no other reason.
You guys need to chill out, I simply asked a question and once I read the answer, I posted my personal choice on the game... It has nothing to do with the game it self which I hope is great and tons of people enjoy. For me WAR will not be fun, FOR me any game without a harsh DP is not worth my time..... It has nothing to do with what is fun for you or others, it has to do with if its fun for ME.
Again dont put words in my mouth.... I never said WAR would be crap or not fun... I said it would not be fun for me.... Do you understand the difference?
This thread should have died after page 1 because that is all I needed to know, then it turned into this bullshit debate about DP's, who cares, play the game that is fun for you... WAR will simply not be fun for me, thats to bad for me. I really dont care what you find fun that was not the point of this thread.
WAR will not be fun FOR ME, I hope you all enjoy it, I hope it is successful, I really do hope it is because we all know we as gamers have earned the right for another great game because of all the crappy games we had to put up with over the last few years.
i wish PvE had a harsher one but PvP really shouldnt have a death penalty in my opinion so except for the easy penalty for pve they made the right decision because i think you will be dieing alot more often than you are use to in an MMO
To say you will die more often then other MMOs is just stupid. WAR is not the first to PvP or RvR so dont talk out of your ass.
PvE and PvP should have the same penalty, if you die, you die period, it should hurt, it should make you fear dieing. You as a player should want to do everything in your power to advoid death... Ever Play EQ1, The good players were easy as hell to point out due to the Death penalty.
Before you all start going off the deep end on how EQ1's death penalty was nothing but a time sink remember the whole point of any MMO is a time sink, to get the player to pay to play longer is the goal after all.
No Death Penatly for PvP is crap, ruins any chance of WAR being fun for myself and gamers like me who want Risk back in our games.
No risk is worthless in MMOs. All you have to do with no death penalty is throw body after body at the enemy until you win or they leave. Pointless. Zerging will be the main tactic in any open World PvP/RvR fights.
I thought you had a good point so I went back to see where the thread started going down the crapper. It was fine until someone posted this on page 1....
MMOs Played: EQ 1&2, DAoC, SWG, Planetside, WoW, GW, CoX, DDO, EVE, Vanguard, TR Playing: WAR Awaiting 40k Online and wishing for Battletech Online
Well obviously nobody cares about the severe death penalty or it would be in-game. Don't like it, move on, it is a game after all; I don't recall Mythic chaining anyone down and telling them they have to play and like it. If you want a real harsh death penalty, go play Russian Roulet.
Yet another example of someone that does not read the whole thread before posting... I stated very clearly on page 1 that I will passing on this game.
i wish PvE had a harsher one but PvP really shouldnt have a death penalty in my opinion so except for the easy penalty for pve they made the right decision because i think you will be dieing alot more often than you are use to in an MMO
To say you will die more often then other MMOs is just stupid. WAR is not the first to PvP or RvR so dont talk out of your ass.
PvE and PvP should have the same penalty, if you die, you die period, it should hurt, it should make you fear dieing. You as a player should want to do everything in your power to advoid death... Ever Play EQ1, The good players were easy as hell to point out due to the Death penalty.
Before you all start going off the deep end on how EQ1's death penalty was nothing but a time sink remember the whole point of any MMO is a time sink, to get the player to pay to play longer is the goal after all.
No Death Penatly for PvP is crap, ruins any chance of WAR being fun for myself and gamers like me who want Risk back in our games.
No risk is worthless in MMOs. All you have to do with no death penalty is throw body after body at the enemy until you win or they leave. Pointless. Zerging will be the main tactic in any open World PvP/RvR fights.
I thought you had a good point so I went back to see where the thread started going down the crapper. It was fine until someone posted this on page 1....
So I am not allowed to post my opinion? This is all about what I find fun, not what others find fun.... get a clue please... Show me where in that post I said WAR would not be fun for anyone else?
What is the Death Penalty in WAR? That is the deciding factor for WAR. Does it put fear in you? Someone with beta knowledge please enlighting me with what happens when you die.
No it dont put you in fear. Its similar to WoW. It cannot be otherwise for such kind of game where death is most normal thing. As it say when you die "Dont worry its part of the game". Bigger death penalty will lead to more strategic battle actions like in EvE, and less pure battles that is not point of the WAR.
Where themepark games try to hide that they are copying WOW, games like Mortal Online and Darkfall make no attempt to hide their inspiration ______\m/_____ LordOfDarkDesire
What is the Death Penalty in WAR? That is the deciding factor for WAR. Does it put fear in you? Someone with beta knowledge please enlighting me with what happens when you die.
No it dont put you in fear similar to WoW. It cannot be otherwise for such kind of game where death is most normal thing. As it say when you die "Dont worry its part of the game". Bigger death penalty will lead to more strategic battle actions like in EvE, and less pure battles that is not point of the WAR.
i wish PvE had a harsher one but PvP really shouldnt have a death penalty in my opinion so except for the easy penalty for pve they made the right decision because i think you will be dieing alot more often than you are use to in an MMO
To say you will die more often then other MMOs is just stupid. WAR is not the first to PvP or RvR so dont talk out of your ass.
PvE and PvP should have the same penalty, if you die, you die period, it should hurt, it should make you fear dieing. You as a player should want to do everything in your power to advoid death... Ever Play EQ1, The good players were easy as hell to point out due to the Death penalty.
Before you all start going off the deep end on how EQ1's death penalty was nothing but a time sink remember the whole point of any MMO is a time sink, to get the player to pay to play longer is the goal after all.
No Death Penatly for PvP is crap, ruins any chance of WAR being fun for myself and gamers like me who want Risk back in our games.
No risk is worthless in MMOs. All you have to do with no death penalty is throw body after body at the enemy until you win or they leave. Pointless. Zerging will be the main tactic in any open World PvP/RvR fights.
I thought you had a good point so I went back to see where the thread started going down the crapper. It was fine until someone posted this on page 1....
So I am not allowed to post my opinion? This is all about what I find fun, not what others find fun.... get a clue please... Show me where in that post I said WAR would not be fun for anyone else?
Certainly, you can voice your opinion. I indicated that I thought you had a good point. I was responding to your scathing response to xenogias. The highlighted portion specifically.
Originally posted by TdogSkal
Originally posted by xenogias
Figured I would pop back in here since the thread hasnt died yet. Like I said before, I have played harsh DP's in games and yes, I loved it and will not deny that. Hell, if Asherons Call updated its graphics, whiped the slate clean (character wise), hired the old writers/devs back I would drop WAR in a heartbeat to go back and im REALLY enjoying WAR. OH and they would have to get rid of the retarted ass arc spells, thats when PvP became less about skill and more about who is going to lag first. I dont mind harsh death penalties in the least. The only thing that pisses me off is the ones that come here like the OP and talk bs about how its not worth playing without harsh DP's. In AC and EQ the game was made where harsh DP's worked. In games like DAoC and WAR harsh DP's just wont work. IMO its not because you wont "learn your class" better or "Wont get the fear feeling" but because your going to die, and die lots. No way around it. You could be the BEST PvP'er and your going to die alot. Just alittle less than the next person. Need a reason to learn your class to the fullest? Thats why they have a certain feature (unless its been removed and I missed it or they havent said yet) that the top guilds and if I remember right top players in RR rank will be featured in Tier4 keep area's. Your not going to get thoes honors unless you are the best and that takes teamwork and knowing your class AND other classes like the back of your hand. Anyway this "I'm right and your wrong" crap can stop. Neither side is right or wrong. The only diffrence it one side has more numbers than the other. Some of us are stuck in the middle where we like both ways but understand it has no place in some games and have fun with both. *shrug*
What pisses me off is people like you who dont read the whole thread and flame the OP.
I am the OP, the whole point of this thread which you can clearly see on Page 1 is I wanted to know what the Death Penatly was... I found out, I stated that I would pass on the game as would gamers like myself that enjoy risk as part of their MMO games. I said the game TO ME would not be fun without a DP, never said WAR would not be fun... Its the people like you and others that come in long after the thread should have died can call me and others with my same opnion an elitiest asshole or a hardcore game because to ME any game without a DP would not be fun. I do think of myself as a hardcore game because of the amount of time I spend playing games and for no other reason.
You guys need to chill out, I simply asked a question and once I read the answer, I posted my personal choice on the game... It has nothing to do with the game it self which I hope is great and tons of people enjoy. For me WAR will not be fun, FOR me any game without a harsh DP is not worth my time..... It has nothing to do with what is fun for you or others, it has to do with if its fun for ME.
Again dont put words in my mouth.... I never said WAR would be crap or not fun... I said it would not be fun for me.... Do you understand the difference?
This thread should have died after page 1 because that is all I needed to know, then it turned into this bullshit debate about DP's, who cares, play the game that is fun for you... WAR will simply not be fun for me, thats to bad for me. I really dont care what you find fun that was not the point of this thread.
WAR will not be fun FOR ME, I hope you all enjoy it, I hope it is successful, I really do hope it is because we all know we as gamers have earned the right for another great game because of all the crappy games we had to put up with over the last few years.
Just pointing out your culpability in the matter.
MMOs Played: EQ 1&2, DAoC, SWG, Planetside, WoW, GW, CoX, DDO, EVE, Vanguard, TR Playing: WAR Awaiting 40k Online and wishing for Battletech Online
i wish PvE had a harsher one but PvP really shouldnt have a death penalty in my opinion so except for the easy penalty for pve they made the right decision because i think you will be dieing alot more often than you are use to in an MMO
To say you will die more often then other MMOs is just stupid. WAR is not the first to PvP or RvR so dont talk out of your ass.
PvE and PvP should have the same penalty, if you die, you die period, it should hurt, it should make you fear dieing. You as a player should want to do everything in your power to advoid death... Ever Play EQ1, The good players were easy as hell to point out due to the Death penalty.
Before you all start going off the deep end on how EQ1's death penalty was nothing but a time sink remember the whole point of any MMO is a time sink, to get the player to pay to play longer is the goal after all.
No Death Penatly for PvP is crap, ruins any chance of WAR being fun for myself and gamers like me who want Risk back in our games.
No risk is worthless in MMOs. All you have to do with no death penalty is throw body after body at the enemy until you win or they leave. Pointless. Zerging will be the main tactic in any open World PvP/RvR fights.
I thought you had a good point so I went back to see where the thread started going down the crapper. It was fine until someone posted this on page 1....
So I am not allowed to post my opinion? This is all about what I find fun, not what others find fun.... get a clue please... Show me where in that post I said WAR would not be fun for anyone else?
Certainly, you can voice your opinion. I indicated that I thought you had a good point. I was responding to your scathing response to xenogias. The highlighted portion specifically.
Originally posted by TdogSkal
Originally posted by xenogias
Figured I would pop back in here since the thread hasnt died yet. Like I said before, I have played harsh DP's in games and yes, I loved it and will not deny that. Hell, if Asherons Call updated its graphics, whiped the slate clean (character wise), hired the old writers/devs back I would drop WAR in a heartbeat to go back and im REALLY enjoying WAR. OH and they would have to get rid of the retarted ass arc spells, thats when PvP became less about skill and more about who is going to lag first. I dont mind harsh death penalties in the least. The only thing that pisses me off is the ones that come here like the OP and talk bs about how its not worth playing without harsh DP's. In AC and EQ the game was made where harsh DP's worked. In games like DAoC and WAR harsh DP's just wont work. IMO its not because you wont "learn your class" better or "Wont get the fear feeling" but because your going to die, and die lots. No way around it. You could be the BEST PvP'er and your going to die alot. Just alittle less than the next person. Need a reason to learn your class to the fullest? Thats why they have a certain feature (unless its been removed and I missed it or they havent said yet) that the top guilds and if I remember right top players in RR rank will be featured in Tier4 keep area's. Your not going to get thoes honors unless you are the best and that takes teamwork and knowing your class AND other classes like the back of your hand. Anyway this "I'm right and your wrong" crap can stop. Neither side is right or wrong. The only diffrence it one side has more numbers than the other. Some of us are stuck in the middle where we like both ways but understand it has no place in some games and have fun with both. *shrug*
What pisses me off is people like you who dont read the whole thread and flame the OP.
I am the OP, the whole point of this thread which you can clearly see on Page 1 is I wanted to know what the Death Penatly was... I found out, I stated that I would pass on the game as would gamers like myself that enjoy risk as part of their MMO games. I said the game TO ME would not be fun without a DP, never said WAR would not be fun... Its the people like you and others that come in long after the thread should have died can call me and others with my same opnion an elitiest asshole or a hardcore game because to ME any game without a DP would not be fun. I do think of myself as a hardcore game because of the amount of time I spend playing games and for no other reason.
You guys need to chill out, I simply asked a question and once I read the answer, I posted my personal choice on the game... It has nothing to do with the game it self which I hope is great and tons of people enjoy. For me WAR will not be fun, FOR me any game without a harsh DP is not worth my time..... It has nothing to do with what is fun for you or others, it has to do with if its fun for ME.
Again dont put words in my mouth.... I never said WAR would be crap or not fun... I said it would not be fun for me.... Do you understand the difference?
This thread should have died after page 1 because that is all I needed to know, then it turned into this bullshit debate about DP's, who cares, play the game that is fun for you... WAR will simply not be fun for me, thats to bad for me. I really dont care what you find fun that was not the point of this thread.
WAR will not be fun FOR ME, I hope you all enjoy it, I hope it is successful, I really do hope it is because we all know we as gamers have earned the right for another great game because of all the crappy games we had to put up with over the last few years.
Just pointing out your culpability in the matter.
I agree I did have a part in causing this debate but I still dont see in that post you quoted were I attacked him or WAR... Again I provided my opinion on why I want a DP in any game I play.
Again The point I am making is that never did I say WAR in general would not be fun, never did I say WAR in general would be a shitty game.... I simply stated that for me WAR would not be fun and I was called an elitist asshole.
It might have already been mentioned, but because I'm to lazy to read through all the pages of these threads I'm going to say it anyway. Pirates of the Burning Sea had a somewhat harsh death penalty. You die you lose your ship, your inventory, etc. Look at where that game is now? It's a game full of gankers and greifers running around until they find a fight they can win with numbers or levels, and running from the ones they can't.
Comments
That would sum up your attempts to negate all your previous elitist comments, yes.
Oohhhhh... nice try. But... sorry... nope. I'm not denying anything. I've been very up-front with what I said, and what context I said it in.
That people are arrogant enough to believe that they know my meaning more than I do... well... that says a lot right there.
You still have that option. Nobody's forcing you to play WAR. No death penalty is not going to change, no matter how much you and all the pining-for-the-glory-days of UO or EQ masochists bitch about it.
Right you are... I don't have to play it. But to play or not isn't what the discussion is about, now is it?
But... bitching? Nahhh... Bitching is what resulted in companies reducing failure/death in a MMO to a mere inconvenience in the first place. And as I've said before.. there are *still* people who claim *that's* too harsh... having to repair gear or spend some time to get back to where they died is just a total kill-joy.
Nowadays, the very thought of any kind of penalty that isn't just a negligible inconvenience is like telling them you're going to stab their puppy to death and make them watch. Apparently to them there should be no failure, ever, in a game. Just unending rewards as far as the eye can see.
Case in point, you yourself described preferring some kind of penalty as "masochistic". That's a pretty heavy label for something that simply promotes playing more carefully and using more strategy instead of just running in, all Leeroy Jenkins style.
What's next... No death... ever? When the mob is about to kill you, it has a change of heart, hands you a health potion and runs away instead, sparing your life? This way no one has to die, no one has to be inconvenienced and there's nothing but warm fuzzies all around?
When does the softening of death in MMOs end? Where do you draw the line?
And back to the "masochism" thing... Nothing masochistic about it at all. It was part of the challenge. You die... you lose xp, or you lose an item... or you get a game over screen and lose the game completely. The point was to play well enough to prevent any of that from happening... or to delay it as long as possible.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Figured I would pop back in here since the thread hasnt died yet. Like I said before, I have played harsh DP's in games and yes, I loved it and will not deny that. Hell, if Asherons Call updated its graphics, whiped the slate clean (character wise), hired the old writers/devs back I would drop WAR in a heartbeat to go back and im REALLY enjoying WAR. OH and they would have to get rid of the retarted ass arc spells, thats when PvP became less about skill and more about who is going to lag first.
I dont mind harsh death penalties in the least. The only thing that pisses me off is the ones that come here like the OP and talk bs about how its not worth playing without harsh DP's. In AC and EQ the game was made where harsh DP's worked. In games like DAoC and WAR harsh DP's just wont work. IMO its not because you wont "learn your class" better or "Wont get the fear feeling" but because your going to die, and die lots. No way around it. You could be the BEST PvP'er and your going to die alot. Just alittle less than the next person.
Need a reason to learn your class to the fullest? Thats why they have a certain feature (unless its been removed and I missed it or they havent said yet) that the top guilds and if I remember right top players in RR rank will be featured in Tier4 keep area's. Your not going to get thoes honors unless you are the best and that takes teamwork and knowing your class AND other classes like the back of your hand.
Anyway this "I'm right and your wrong" crap can stop. Neither side is right or wrong. The only diffrence it one side has more numbers than the other. Some of us are stuck in the middle where we like both ways but understand it has no place in some games and have fun with both. *shrug*
I actually agree with you on that. I don't think it's necessary and *can* enjoy a game that doesn't have xp loss, etc... as long as there's enough else I like about it. I *prefer* those that do have harsher penalties...
I just don't like the overall affect it's had on players... You try to get people to implement some of the cool strategic features of a game - like Skill Chains in FFXI, or Heroic Opportunities in EQ2.. Things that, some years back, would have been a core part of fighting... and many times now you get "No point... we can just hack at them 'til they're dead. If we die... no big deal, they've practically removed the death penalty".
Well the death "removed penalty" part is true of EQ2... not FFXI. Though they've added features that make the bite less painful in FFXI.. and even *that* little bit, along with "power-leveling", has had a net negative affect over time on how well people play overall. More carelessness, people making mistakes at level 60+ that they should have learned not to make by level 30, etc... But because some power-leveler protected them from mistakes that would normally prove fatal - thus avoiding dying completely - they never learned from them.
I just hate how it turns games with a lot of strategic potential into mere hack-n-slash games. I think that's the core of it right there for me.
It's not like I'm jumping up and down when I die and lose xp... Of course not. I do, though, enjoy that extra "edge" and urgency it provides when you're fighting something tough and know that dying is going to hurt. Maybe you (you in general) have to experience it first hand to really understand the difference.
For me, the intensity of having situations that looked *dire* - a likely group wipe - to see people kick it up a notch, pull together, create strategies *on the fly*, bringing all they knew about their respective class to bear and turning the fight around is incredibly satisfying, and damn fun. They knew death would have a serious sting, and wasn't something to be "ho hum, big deal" about.
By comparison, to be in groups like I've been in lately, where people don't want to do anything but mash buttons and farm xp... and if they get in over their head and die.. pfft... so what?... It's just really anti-climactic and drab. Like, their classes are given these cool abilities that can be combined into lethal attacks... and they couldn't care less. The more xp they can get with the least effort, the better.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Actually, this is what most people like when they have the choice.
Most people don't climb mountains defying the risk of falling, most people don't invest their money in high risk shares, most people want to be caressed and hugged instead of being beaten and yelled at.
That's just the way it is, theres no gamebreaking potential in absolutely NO death penalty. Deathmatch FPS games offer virtually no death, you instantly respawn into the action, yet they are still great fun.
I think what drives most people mad is the claim that death penalty is something that inherently increases/decreases fun in a game. That is not not true. It increases the difficulty level, suspension and complexity, but not at all fun. Nobody would argue that Unreal Tournament players have less fun in their games than EvE players. It's stupid to think so.
Death penalty contributes to the game mechanics overall and is needed in some games (like EvE, the game would just not work with insta respawn). But for Christs sake, it's not at all something that inherently alters the "being fun" potential of a game...
Meridion
EDIT: @WSIMike: The point is, some people like hack and slash games A LOT. so basically, if the game does not force the players to do what you like to do (heroic opportunities e.g.) you are playing the wrong game.
Remember when getting max level was something rare?
Where reaching a goal was difficult and not handed to you?
Those were the days.
The days dedication and commitment were prerequisites for playing an MMO. They are not in the least less fun these days, you just have to accept a game like it is and stop demanding games to be like you want them to be... then all of a sudden games start to be fun again...
Yep... that I do.
People weren't concerned about what level cap was, how quickly they could get there and what the most powerful class/build was to play... before they'd even created their first character, much like they do now.
The idea of it taking more than a month or two to reach level cap wasn't considered "too slow"... because leveling was a more passive thing; something that happened while you were enjoying yourself doing everything else along the way.
I remember those times well
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
The days dedication and commitment were prerequisites for playing an MMO. They are not in the least less fun these days, you just have to accept a game like it is and stop demanding games to be like you want them to be... then all of a sudden games start to be fun again...
Good grief.
Who's making demands?
All I see is someone engaging in a bit of reminiscing.
Lighten up.
And they were no more about dedication and commitment then than they are now... Anyone who seriously believes the older MMOs were somehow "more demanding" needs to check their own total played time and/or look around them once in a while.
You going to tell me that the players who faithfully log in by a certain time, on scheduled nights of the week, to do guild raid runs - and do it for months on end; often leveling numerous characters to "fill in spots as needed", so they can get all their epic gear isn't being dedicated or making a commitment? They do that all the time in WoW.
You telling me that people scheduling their game time across 2-3 nights a week, maybe more, to be available for Rift runs and the like, as I saw people do in LoTRO all the time, isn't "dedication"?
I've seen it in myriad other MMOs that would all certainly qualify as "newer MMOs" cut from the "WoW mold"
It's no different now than it ever was.. people put just as many hundreds or thousands of hours into the newer MMOs as they did into the older ones...
The only difference is how the time is distributed.. In the older games, it was more spread out across the levels.. in WoW and others like it, it's all end-game. In the end, it's still just as much commitment and dedication.
Forget MMOs.. how about a game like Starcraft, or Diablo II? How many hours do you think people dedicate to being committed to those games? Especially if they're part of a clan who plays competitively; not professionally, mind you, but just for fun?
People are going to invest as much time as they're willing into a game, regardless of the game's design, regardless of whether it's 2, 5 or 10 years old, regardless of the level/content distribution.
So please, put the whole "oh, the old games demanded too much time/committment/dedication" thing to rest already. It's absolutely no different with the newer games.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I wasn't complaining
I would just like to see the dumbing down of every new mmo to stop.
More games like eve, and old school everquest would be nice for the players who don't want instant gratification.
They wanna feel an accomplishment when reaching a goal.
Not be huddled up with all the other max levels when they go to a populated zone.
It would be nice for more games with difficulty to make it back on the market... Sure, they might not make as many sales to the masses who want it handed to them after a month, but it would give the consumer more choices for the game play they are looking for.
The days dedication and commitment were prerequisites for playing an MMO. They are not in the least less fun these days, you just have to accept a game like it is and stop demanding games to be like you want them to be... then all of a sudden games start to be fun again...
Good grief.
Who's making demands?
All I see is someone engaging in a bit of reminiscing.
Lighten up.
And they were no more about dedication and commitment than they are now...
You going to tell me that the players who log in by a certain time, on scheduled nights of the week, to do their raid runs - and do it for months on end... many times leveling numerous characters to "fill in spots as needed", so they can get all their epic gear isn't being dedicated or making a committment? They do that all the time in WoW.
But you don't have to. That's the big difference. You can still go hardcore crazy dedicating your life to a game, but it's not a prerequisite for having fun.
You telling me that people scheduling their game time across 2-3 nights a week, maybe more, to be available for Rift runs and the like, as I saw people do in LoTRO all the time, isn't "dedication"?
Yes it is, but you don't have to, you can hang out in the Pony, craft, PvMP and still have fun and compete.
I've seen it in myriad other MMOs that would all certainly qualify as "newer MMOs" cut from the "WoW mold"
It's no different now than it ever was.. people put just as many thousands of hours into the newer MMOs as they did into the older ones...
The only difference is how the time is distributed.. In the older games, it was more spread out across the levels.. in WoW and others like it, it's all end-game. In the end, it's still just as much commitment and dedication.
People are going to invest as much time as they want into a game, regardless of the game's design, regardless of the time period, regardless of the level/content distribution.
So please, put the whole "oh, the old games demanded too much time" thing to rest already. It's a disingenuous claim.
No it's not. I said they required dedication and commitment. not time. That's the whole point I'm trying to make here. Modern games, like WAR, will allow people to have fun without planning, much caution and - if they choose - a minimum amount of time.
The problem is, pro death penalty players tend to stamp games with no death penalty as "inherently less fun" which is apparently not true. theres not a whole new generation of MMO players enjoying themselves less than the "generation UO"...
You going to tell me that the players who log in by a certain time, on scheduled nights of the week, to do their raid runs - and do it for months on end... many times leveling numerous characters to "fill in spots as needed", so they can get all their epic gear isn't being dedicated or making a committment? They do that all the time in WoW.
But you don't have to. That's the big difference. You can still go hardcore crazy dedicating your life to a game, but it's not a prerequisite for having fun.
You didn't have to in the older games to have fun either.
I honestly don't know what MMOs you're describing, but it's not any of the ones I played... AC1, AC2, Anarchy Online, etc... If I wanted to do quests, I did quests. If I wanted to craft, I crafted... There was absolutely no difference in time commitment to those games than I find in any of the newer ones. If I want to log in for a couple hours and do some quests, and log out... I could do so.
You seem to be assuming a very specific play style in your estimates.... and it's nothing remotely reflecting what my time playing them, or others I knew, was like. You could say we were actually "casual players".
I spent as much or as little time as I wished doing things in those games. If I didn't feel like doing one thing, I could do another.
Yes it is, but you don't have to, you can hang out in the Pony, craft, PvMP and still have fun and compete.
You don't have to in the older MMOs either.
I could PvP, hang out and chat, craft and do all of that in the older MMOs as well. In fact, I did so. And it never required any more dedication or commitment than I've found it to in newer games. I did it for as long as I wished... When I was done... I logged out, or did something else. Simple.
Again... I don't know what you're getting at here, but I'm not seeing anything proving that older MMOs required any more commitment or dedication than the newer ones in terms of similar content.
Perhaps you're considering what people commonly *chose* to do and assuming that you "had" to?
No it's not. I said they required dedication and commitment. not time. That's the whole point I'm trying to make here. Modern games, like WAR, will allow people to have fun without planning, much caution and - if they choose - a minimum amount of time.
Not seeing the point there.
I could log into AO... Request some custom missions at one of many kiosks in Old Athen, or elsewhere. Jump through a few whompas (teleporters)... do the quests... complete them... Get some more... wash rinse repeat. Took all of 5-10 minutes to get started on that. No planning, no "commitment" required. And I had fun.
If I wanted to work on some implants in AO... Simple... get the required items, which never took more than 10-15 minutes to collect, often less. Get the required buffs, find a surgical station and have it. No significant time committment required.
If I wanted to get a group together to do a Vault run or some other activity in AC2.. no problem.. Ask either in my guild, or shout in the broadcast channel... Within 15 minutes, I was in a group, going through the content. If there weren't enough people available.. No problem.. plenty to do solo. Again... no significant time committment.
If I was lazy and just wanted to hang out and chat... I was able to do that in any of the MMOs. No problem.
... I can continue witih the examples, but I think the point's been made.
Unless you're speaking of doing things that typically take a lot of preparation (like raids, etc.. which take a lot of preparation in *any* MMO), there is *plenty* to do and have fun in any of those old MMOs, just as much as in the new ones.
The problem is, pro death penalty players tend to stamp games with no death penalty as "inherently less fun" which is apparently not true. theres not a whole new generation of MMO players enjoying themselves less than the "generation UO"...
Because it's a very different generation of players playing the newer MMOs with very different expectations.
There's entire paragraphs I could write about the differences between them. But I won't...
.
I'll just put it this way...
You have the old-school MMO players, many of whom are still happily playing the same MMOs they started years ago, with no intention of leaving - no matter what snazzy new game is coming down the pike, vying for their attention.
Meanwhile, you have the post-WoW "new generation" of MMO players. This generation seems to be steadily turning into one of career MMO hoppers. They stick around in a game just long enough to burn through all the content - 2-3 months it seems. Then they declare the game "dead" or "dying", jump ship for whatever the hottest new MMO is... They stick around for a few months, burn through all the content in that game, and get bored. They declare that game "dead" or "dying", and look for the next MMO to jump ship to... ad infinitum.
I think the difference there is very telling of just how the different mindsets affect the individuals' ability to enjoy the game, and which is getting the most enjoyment for their money in the long run.
Just a thought
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Well obviously nobody cares about the severe death penalty or it would be in-game. Don't like it, move on, it is a game after all; I don't recall Mythic chaining anyone down and telling them they have to play and like it.
If you want a real harsh death penalty, go play Russian Roulet.
------------------
Originally posted by javac
well i'm 35 and have a PhD in science, and then 10 years experience in bioinformatics... you?
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/218865/page/8
I don't know why you guys keep arguing with people like WSIMike. If something about the game doesn't meet their standard then it's crap and only drooling idiots, kids and lesser creatures would ever consider it fun, much less play it. If you try to debate him you're an idiot. If you point out it's just his opinion and he's being an elitist ass, then you're incapable of understanding the true nature of his message and are deserving of nothing but ridicule. There is a perfect reality in their minds that only the true MMO player can comprehend and the rest of you are just ruinous troglodytes to their enlightened world. Anything you say against them is by default, wrong.
MMOs Played: EQ 1&2, DAoC, SWG, Planetside, WoW, GW, CoX, DDO, EVE, Vanguard, TR
Playing: WAR
Awaiting 40k Online and wishing for Battletech Online
That's what I'm talking about. Veteran players tend to project their issues with newer games and the "cookie cutter no fun"-agenda on the games. _The Games_ need to be sandbox style. _The Games_ need to feature harsh death penalties.
The majority of those people ignores that there are Many quality games out, and people are enjoying them a lot. So it just _might_ have something to do with their own mindset.
Besides, I know that you can do low risk activities in all MMOs, you even could use a MUD as a chat client. I'm talking about, and I thought we were on a common base here, about competetive gameplay. About easy accessibility and a flat learning curve. And as I posted earlier, this is perfect fun in many many shooters. Log on, fight, die, fight, die, log out. fun.
I'll repeat the essence of this: There are a LOT of quality, fun games out. The cookie-cutter-problem is in the heads of the jaded vets.
M
Wow. On the one hand you say they are his opinions and the other hand you call him names.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
If you have an opinion that there should be no death penalty that's fine. I think your wrong, but your entitled to have that opinion.
If you have an opinion that the game should have a harsh death penalty that's fine too. I think your right, and your entitled to have that opinion.
My argument is that the developer community should try to make alternatives for people who want a more harsh environment. And because world of warcraft makes so much money, you won't see many devs go that route.
They wanna see dollar signs, which is their goal being a business.
It's just a shame that a segment of the gaming community isn't satisfied by newer games because its the older ones with actual difficulty that meet their needs.
I'm argueing because my mining circle is three minutes and I'm not staring at a floating mining ship for three minutes doing nothing ^^... So either I continue reading this book here on the table or I browse these boards and discuss things. ATM, the latter is more fun...
M
What pisses me off is people like you who dont read the whole thread and flame the OP.
I am the OP, the whole point of this thread which you can clearly see on Page 1 is I wanted to know what the Death Penatly was... I found out, I stated that I would pass on the game as would gamers like myself that enjoy risk as part of their MMO games. I said the game TO ME would not be fun without a DP, never said WAR would not be fun... Its the people like you and others that come in long after the thread should have died can call me and others with my same opnion an elitiest asshole or a hardcore game because to ME any game without a DP would not be fun. I do think of myself as a hardcore game because of the amount of time I spend playing games and for no other reason.
You guys need to chill out, I simply asked a question and once I read the answer, I posted my personal choice on the game... It has nothing to do with the game it self which I hope is great and tons of people enjoy. For me WAR will not be fun, FOR me any game without a harsh DP is not worth my time..... It has nothing to do with what is fun for you or others, it has to do with if its fun for ME.
Again dont put words in my mouth.... I never said WAR would be crap or not fun... I said it would not be fun for me.... Do you understand the difference?
This thread should have died after page 1 because that is all I needed to know, then it turned into this bullshit debate about DP's, who cares, play the game that is fun for you... WAR will simply not be fun for me, thats to bad for me. I really dont care what you find fun that was not the point of this thread.
WAR will not be fun FOR ME, I hope you all enjoy it, I hope it is successful, I really do hope it is because we all know we as gamers have earned the right for another great game because of all the crappy games we had to put up with over the last few years.
Sooner or Later
To say you will die more often then other MMOs is just stupid. WAR is not the first to PvP or RvR so dont talk out of your ass.
PvE and PvP should have the same penalty, if you die, you die period, it should hurt, it should make you fear dieing. You as a player should want to do everything in your power to advoid death... Ever Play EQ1, The good players were easy as hell to point out due to the Death penalty.
Before you all start going off the deep end on how EQ1's death penalty was nothing but a time sink remember the whole point of any MMO is a time sink, to get the player to pay to play longer is the goal after all.
No Death Penatly for PvP is crap, ruins any chance of WAR being fun for myself and gamers like me who want Risk back in our games.
No risk is worthless in MMOs. All you have to do with no death penalty is throw body after body at the enemy until you win or they leave. Pointless. Zerging will be the main tactic in any open World PvP/RvR fights.
I thought you had a good point so I went back to see where the thread started going down the crapper. It was fine until someone posted this on page 1....
MMOs Played: EQ 1&2, DAoC, SWG, Planetside, WoW, GW, CoX, DDO, EVE, Vanguard, TR
Playing: WAR
Awaiting 40k Online and wishing for Battletech Online
Yet another example of someone that does not read the whole thread before posting... I stated very clearly on page 1 that I will passing on this game.
What dont you understand?
Sooner or Later
To say you will die more often then other MMOs is just stupid. WAR is not the first to PvP or RvR so dont talk out of your ass.
PvE and PvP should have the same penalty, if you die, you die period, it should hurt, it should make you fear dieing. You as a player should want to do everything in your power to advoid death... Ever Play EQ1, The good players were easy as hell to point out due to the Death penalty.
Before you all start going off the deep end on how EQ1's death penalty was nothing but a time sink remember the whole point of any MMO is a time sink, to get the player to pay to play longer is the goal after all.
No Death Penatly for PvP is crap, ruins any chance of WAR being fun for myself and gamers like me who want Risk back in our games.
No risk is worthless in MMOs. All you have to do with no death penalty is throw body after body at the enemy until you win or they leave. Pointless. Zerging will be the main tactic in any open World PvP/RvR fights.
I thought you had a good point so I went back to see where the thread started going down the crapper. It was fine until someone posted this on page 1....
So I am not allowed to post my opinion? This is all about what I find fun, not what others find fun.... get a clue please... Show me where in that post I said WAR would not be fun for anyone else?
Sooner or Later
No it dont put you in fear. Its similar to WoW. It cannot be otherwise for such kind of game where death is most normal thing. As it say when you die "Dont worry its part of the game". Bigger death penalty will lead to more strategic battle actions like in EvE, and less pure battles that is not point of the WAR.
Where themepark games try to hide that they are copying WOW, games like Mortal Online and Darkfall make no attempt to hide their inspiration
______\m/_____
LordOfDarkDesire
No it dont put you in fear similar to WoW. It cannot be otherwise for such kind of game where death is most normal thing. As it say when you die "Dont worry its part of the game". Bigger death penalty will lead to more strategic battle actions like in EvE, and less pure battles that is not point of the WAR.
WoW did not put the fear in you either.
Sooner or Later
To say you will die more often then other MMOs is just stupid. WAR is not the first to PvP or RvR so dont talk out of your ass.
PvE and PvP should have the same penalty, if you die, you die period, it should hurt, it should make you fear dieing. You as a player should want to do everything in your power to advoid death... Ever Play EQ1, The good players were easy as hell to point out due to the Death penalty.
Before you all start going off the deep end on how EQ1's death penalty was nothing but a time sink remember the whole point of any MMO is a time sink, to get the player to pay to play longer is the goal after all.
No Death Penatly for PvP is crap, ruins any chance of WAR being fun for myself and gamers like me who want Risk back in our games.
No risk is worthless in MMOs. All you have to do with no death penalty is throw body after body at the enemy until you win or they leave. Pointless. Zerging will be the main tactic in any open World PvP/RvR fights.
I thought you had a good point so I went back to see where the thread started going down the crapper. It was fine until someone posted this on page 1....
So I am not allowed to post my opinion? This is all about what I find fun, not what others find fun.... get a clue please... Show me where in that post I said WAR would not be fun for anyone else?
Certainly, you can voice your opinion. I indicated that I thought you had a good point. I was responding to your scathing response to xenogias. The highlighted portion specifically.
What pisses me off is people like you who dont read the whole thread and flame the OP.
I am the OP, the whole point of this thread which you can clearly see on Page 1 is I wanted to know what the Death Penatly was... I found out, I stated that I would pass on the game as would gamers like myself that enjoy risk as part of their MMO games. I said the game TO ME would not be fun without a DP, never said WAR would not be fun... Its the people like you and others that come in long after the thread should have died can call me and others with my same opnion an elitiest asshole or a hardcore game because to ME any game without a DP would not be fun. I do think of myself as a hardcore game because of the amount of time I spend playing games and for no other reason.
You guys need to chill out, I simply asked a question and once I read the answer, I posted my personal choice on the game... It has nothing to do with the game it self which I hope is great and tons of people enjoy. For me WAR will not be fun, FOR me any game without a harsh DP is not worth my time..... It has nothing to do with what is fun for you or others, it has to do with if its fun for ME.
Again dont put words in my mouth.... I never said WAR would be crap or not fun... I said it would not be fun for me.... Do you understand the difference?
This thread should have died after page 1 because that is all I needed to know, then it turned into this bullshit debate about DP's, who cares, play the game that is fun for you... WAR will simply not be fun for me, thats to bad for me. I really dont care what you find fun that was not the point of this thread.
WAR will not be fun FOR ME, I hope you all enjoy it, I hope it is successful, I really do hope it is because we all know we as gamers have earned the right for another great game because of all the crappy games we had to put up with over the last few years.
Just pointing out your culpability in the matter.
MMOs Played: EQ 1&2, DAoC, SWG, Planetside, WoW, GW, CoX, DDO, EVE, Vanguard, TR
Playing: WAR
Awaiting 40k Online and wishing for Battletech Online
To say you will die more often then other MMOs is just stupid. WAR is not the first to PvP or RvR so dont talk out of your ass.
PvE and PvP should have the same penalty, if you die, you die period, it should hurt, it should make you fear dieing. You as a player should want to do everything in your power to advoid death... Ever Play EQ1, The good players were easy as hell to point out due to the Death penalty.
Before you all start going off the deep end on how EQ1's death penalty was nothing but a time sink remember the whole point of any MMO is a time sink, to get the player to pay to play longer is the goal after all.
No Death Penatly for PvP is crap, ruins any chance of WAR being fun for myself and gamers like me who want Risk back in our games.
No risk is worthless in MMOs. All you have to do with no death penalty is throw body after body at the enemy until you win or they leave. Pointless. Zerging will be the main tactic in any open World PvP/RvR fights.
I thought you had a good point so I went back to see where the thread started going down the crapper. It was fine until someone posted this on page 1....
So I am not allowed to post my opinion? This is all about what I find fun, not what others find fun.... get a clue please... Show me where in that post I said WAR would not be fun for anyone else?
Certainly, you can voice your opinion. I indicated that I thought you had a good point. I was responding to your scathing response to xenogias. The highlighted portion specifically.
What pisses me off is people like you who dont read the whole thread and flame the OP.
I am the OP, the whole point of this thread which you can clearly see on Page 1 is I wanted to know what the Death Penatly was... I found out, I stated that I would pass on the game as would gamers like myself that enjoy risk as part of their MMO games. I said the game TO ME would not be fun without a DP, never said WAR would not be fun... Its the people like you and others that come in long after the thread should have died can call me and others with my same opnion an elitiest asshole or a hardcore game because to ME any game without a DP would not be fun. I do think of myself as a hardcore game because of the amount of time I spend playing games and for no other reason.
You guys need to chill out, I simply asked a question and once I read the answer, I posted my personal choice on the game... It has nothing to do with the game it self which I hope is great and tons of people enjoy. For me WAR will not be fun, FOR me any game without a harsh DP is not worth my time..... It has nothing to do with what is fun for you or others, it has to do with if its fun for ME.
Again dont put words in my mouth.... I never said WAR would be crap or not fun... I said it would not be fun for me.... Do you understand the difference?
This thread should have died after page 1 because that is all I needed to know, then it turned into this bullshit debate about DP's, who cares, play the game that is fun for you... WAR will simply not be fun for me, thats to bad for me. I really dont care what you find fun that was not the point of this thread.
WAR will not be fun FOR ME, I hope you all enjoy it, I hope it is successful, I really do hope it is because we all know we as gamers have earned the right for another great game because of all the crappy games we had to put up with over the last few years.
Just pointing out your culpability in the matter.
I agree I did have a part in causing this debate but I still dont see in that post you quoted were I attacked him or WAR... Again I provided my opinion on why I want a DP in any game I play.
Again The point I am making is that never did I say WAR in general would not be fun, never did I say WAR in general would be a shitty game.... I simply stated that for me WAR would not be fun and I was called an elitist asshole.
Sooner or Later
It might have already been mentioned, but because I'm to lazy to read through all the pages of these threads I'm going to say it anyway. Pirates of the Burning Sea had a somewhat harsh death penalty. You die you lose your ship, your inventory, etc. Look at where that game is now? It's a game full of gankers and greifers running around until they find a fight they can win with numbers or levels, and running from the ones they can't.