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So if Warhammer is supposed to be the PvP god then....
saturn1234
Member UncommonPosts: 111
why is the PvP lacking?
I mean I can understand people want a change of pace from WoW or whatever game you are currently playing. But I am really tired of this hype.
I have been playing the Warhammer beta since the guild beta, on my Chaos Chosen for a pretty long time now. I tried alot of other classes and I really did not like the way they look or play, and I had to stick to the destruction side because that is what my guild chose.
So my Chosen is 28 now , and I think i have experienced enough pvp to give some good insight. And in all honesty its nothing you havent seen before...
This "RvR" thing that everyone keeps talking about closely resembles Alterac Valley in world of warcraft, it differs in very few ways, one of the only major ways being the location of the stuggle.
Aside from that, I played scenarios that felt like Arathi Basin and Eye of the Storm ALOT. This is the other form of PvP in Warhammer. And in my opinion scenarios = battlegrounds.
Each zone has its different RvR points and scenarios, but again it is nothing you havent seen before.
On to the actual combat. Sadly I feel it is lacking also. Success was almost 100% based on number of combatants. And the destruction side largely outnumbered the Order. It could possibly be my class choice, but I could rarely do enough damage to any single person to kill them myself, and while I am all for a team effort, it is very frustrating to not feel like you have a large impact on the battle you are in. After pvping in warhammer for a few days with my friends I really craved the more organized and exciting arena combat in World of Warcraft.
In Warhammer you just roamed around in a team and zerged down either smaller groups, or less organized groups of players. I can say that i was in very few fights that involved a small enough amount of people so that my personal player skill really won the battle for us. It is more about organization and, again, numbers of people. Playing with my 4 friends and being on ventrilo felt like cheating really. Alot of the PvP in this game feels like premade battleground gameplay in World of Warcraft. And i know how unpopular that was.......
The combat mechanics in this game are also alot slower than I thought they would be. I think they can be best compared to Lord of the Rings online. I dont think there are any abilities that crowd control/fear/sleep other players in the game, which is also something I disliked alot.
I really wanted to love this game and have it take me somewhere besides the Azeroth that I am used to. But after all of this testing Wrath of the Lich King is really what i am looking forward to. I wrote this because I just hate seeing a game hyped up on every forum, and then after its released seeing everyone complaining about the exact same things.
Comments
I can't see WAR being popular and after the WOW expansion then watch the sub base drop. WAR has failed to attract the DAOC players and its failed to attract current mmorpg players and all its gotten now is a niche market of fanbois who defend the game no matter what even though its clearly lacking compared to games like WOW.
All WOW needs to do to fix itself is make world PVP.
WAR needs to totally redo the PVE because it sucks and the combat and the classes and then make keeps fun to capture.
To each there own. Personally I love RvR and feels far from AV. I dont know if you did much keep sieging but its another selling point. As to the CC. Its there but more in snares and some roots. Mythic has said from day 1 there would be limited CC. Mythic said they want you to be in controll of your character. No bullcrap like fear, sheep, stuns ect. Sorry I like to play my character, not twiddle my thumbs(and no im not a "I got owned by a rogue" crybaby) My main PvP toon was a druid.
I will agree though. If you like the 2v2-5v5 that arena's offer you definilty wont like WAR. Why you even thought thats what WAR was going to offer is beyond me. Hype is a double edged sword. Its a great tool to get people to buy your game. But its just as bad when people do no research on the game and buy into the hype. The people that dont do research to see if they even remotly like the game should be smart and wait for a free trial or do some reseach (its not hard to find unbiased info, just watch video's, look at skills ect). Hell the AoC hype would have been fine had they produced a game with the features they said they would and without the massive amount of bugs/broken content. The core game in AoC is fantastic to many people.
OP:
The answer is very simple: and technically easy to analyse.
Lack of Crowd Control and counter measures of CC = bigger (healed) group always wins.
Zergfest.
As to the tactical PvP fights: already summed it up:
Downtime between abilities = 2 seconds (in Wow these days with spell haste it's even under 1)
For the WAR fan supporters out there ! In Wow, programmers even "cheat" their way in the server/client relations: they allow for immeadiate CC (stun) prior to the server reaction times.
This programming technique is quite awesome and I don't know any other MMORPG which uses the same techniques. Hence far more dynamic speed fights.
War's laggy spell cast and out of synch animations doing the rest.
And ... you get what seems to be a slow WAR PvP fight, while in reality it is not so good programming code (both client and server wise).
Those saying that they WANT slower fights, well the problems don't lie there. It is the responsiveness that is lacking.
Nothing is more frustrating than to wait for the programming/connection loops instead of control your fights.
Can they solve it? They tried it with patch 3.3, but instead they now get complete out of synch animations and the downtime of 2 seconds is still there.
Programming code together with the apparent too high graphics code... Perhaps they can hire Wow staff.
The 2 second GCD combined with low damage skills makes the combat tiresome and boring... It's like watching everything happening in slow motion....
One could also argue that that leaves time to think, but with the 2 second cooldowns I can play the game with my mouse and finger in my nose and watch tv on the other screen.
Damnit. This troll got me to type out a LONG reply till I realised I was feeding it
Time to think is a weak argument.
Problem is reponsiveness.
Damnit. This troll got me to type out a LONG reply till I realised I was feeding it
better have some decent arguments vs. t the technical analysis then, without resorting to name calling or words like "sucks"...
i would guess a lot of those people used to play daoc the rvr was very good and a good relic raid with 200 plus people was good fun but there was 3 realms and it did make a big differance.
although 200+ attackers and 100's of defenders did sometimes crash the servers when all in the same area but was still good fun
Time to think is a weak argument.
Problem is reponsiveness.
Responsiveness you mean? I know what I am talking about, I am not talking about the castbars being bugged and being unable to queue spells abilities, specifically talking about GCD and most abilities/skills having long cast times. 3 second spells with 2 second cooldown equals 5 seconds, 1 second spell equals 3 seconds cooldown and this equals sleep on the keyboard.
There is a nifty bug in instant healing spells, keep clicking and you'll cast it without cd - becoming a quite valuable healer.
Time to think your weak argument? And counter it with something substantial than just throwing in a fancy word.
I can believe that. I'm no programmer myself, but II once heard a game dev programmer on a video who made the statement. “You can get 10 different programmers and ask them to design a program to do a certain thing and you'll get 10 completely different ways it was coded to achieve the desired result, programming is an art. “ I bet WAR dev team would love the talent of some of Blizzards programmers.
Laharl is the
Best combat ever xD
I can believe that. I'm no programmer myself, but II once heard a game dev programmer on a video who made the statement. “You can get 10 different programmers and ask them to design a program to do a certain thing and you'll get 10 completely different ways it was coded to achieve the desired result, programming is an art. “ I bet WAR dev team would love the talent of some of Blizzards programmers.
Of course there are different ways to go to Rome. Apart form the fact that you have point A and end point B.
Well, the end result differs a lot. Everyone can see that.
Programming is a lot like playing soccer. You have players who control the ball and then you have the vast majority of players where the ball controls them.
It is very hard to get the best ball controlling players in your team and most projects end up with players who only partially control the ball.
Not even talking of all the managers and trainers around who do the talking but don't deliver anything to the actual ball playing, except produce an awful lot of wind.
Time to think is a weak argument.
Problem is reponsiveness.
Responsiveness you mean? I know what I am talking about, I am not talking about the castbars being bugged and being unable to queue spells abilities, specifically talking about GCD and most abilities/skills having long cast times. 3 second spells with 2 second cooldown equals 5 seconds, 1 second spell equals 3 seconds cooldown and this equals sleep on the keyboard.
There is a nifty bug in instant healing spells, keep clicking and you'll cast it without cd - becoming a quite valuable healer.
Time to think your weak argument? And counter it with something substantial than just throwing in a fancy word.
I understand what your saying but we must be playing two diffrent clients. The client I'm playing when my sorc casts her 3 second nuke the 2 second global cooldown is already done when she is done casting and she starts a fresh cast. When my sorc casts her 3 second nuke once that finishes casting she can cast her instant DoT. I have to ask, have you even played the game or understand how global cooldowns work?
3 Second cast + 2 second global cooldown = a 3 second cast and then another. 1 second spell cast + 2 second cooldown = casting another spell 1 second after your first is cast (not counting game lag, just doing math the same you are). Global cooldowns DONT start once the spell is done being cast. They start as SOON as you start the cast/use the skill.
Damnit. This troll got me to type out a LONG reply till I realised I was feeding it
better have some decent arguments vs. t the technical analysis then, without resorting to name calling or words like "sucks"...
What are you talking about? I didnt call you a troll unless your Popalazarou. And not once did I say sucks in the post your quoting me about. Next time look at what your quoting and think about what your saying. It may help alittle.
As to your "technical analysis" thing. Stop trying to act like you know what your talking about. Untill you work on an MMO or any game of size your "Technical analysis" is a weak argument. Unless your coding WAR or its servers you have no clue what they are doing and trying to act like it is laughable.
Ok did a bit of brain fart then, I am going to play the game anyway but I will stay away from healing classes as they are way too weak and not fun to play at the moment at least.
Thanks for straightening me up on GCD thing!
Yes, unfortunately that will never happen. They have their subscribers and failrenas. Introducing proper world pvp as in pre-TBC now would be like admitting they were wrong, which would hurt too much for certain thick heads (including fixing paladins for example).
NP. I read my post and it came across as a flame which wasnt the intent. The intent was just to point out the GCD starts when you first use the skill or cast the spell. Most people are right, the 2 second GCD is alittle to much but it doesnt ruin the combat (for me) like it has for so many others. If enough people complain about it though I'm willing to bet Mythic lower it. Also the responsivness between player and server does need some tweaking. They already made a huge jump from 3.2 to 3.3 though and said they are still working on it.
Holy crap there is a whole lot of fail in this thread.
GCD is, was, and will probably reamain 1.5 seconds. The Cooldown count on the bars doesn't do decimals and it shows up as 2 seconds but it IS 1.5.
I think as soon as they tighten up the Animations/UI lag people will realize that combat is right on track. As of the moment it sometimes feels like your attack didn't land/go off but in reality it did.
As for the low damage, bad healing, etc. That all changes as higher levels. Can't wait for all the people saying combat takes too long to be instagibbed by 5 BW before they can even say WTF.
This is exactly what Mythic was working on for the latest beta patch 3.3. There is no waiting for a server response anymore when you trigger abilities but unfortunately the animations and some code are now out of sync.
Expect a much smoother experience soon.
If you are not accustomed to eating kiwi, go slow at first.
Just wanted to say your comment about the BW's got me laughing and not in a bad way
You bring up a whole new point that people will be bitching about as soon as it happens to them. Not late game but I have been targeted by 2 BW's at the same time in r10rr6 gear with both critting. Not fun seeing -527 and -513 when your bolstered to lvl 8 
Good thing if your able to make it to them they die verry easily lol.
I think you don't know what hype is. The people here are giving the game positive REVIEWS not hype. They have played. Just because you think your opinion is so important doesn't mean everyone elses who has a different view than yours is just hype. Give me a break. If you don't like something say why, but don't come in here saying that everyone else's opinions are hype.
There was Daoc then WoW then WAR , Daoc and wow are closelly the same because well its mythic. so in your little story . Wow is just like Daoc's pvp system. and When u actually get to play the Big ass RVR battles your Tune will change, Daoc vets to the Rescue <<.
War even in its less then perfect state is more fun to most people then WoW is with years of coding. If you don't think its fun then go back to WoW. If WoW was so good then you would have never tried Warhammer in the first place.
This is exactly what Mythic was working on for the latest beta patch 3.3. There is no waiting for a server response anymore when you trigger abilities but unfortunately the animations and some code are now out of sync.
Expect a much smoother experience soon.
Famous last words!!!! <points to funcom forums>
The fact is that combat is slow and sluggish without a lot of 'intervention' type abilities.
Warhammer has played the 'anti wow' card a little two much.
1. CC's. Everyone complained in WOW about being stunlocked from 100-0 by a rogue so Warhammer decided to greatly limit CC's. But they failed to realize that cc's and countering cc's is a huge part of interactive combat. Without CC, then all you have is a numbers game.... your 5 beats my 4 every time. It also makes 1v1 fights much less interesting because everyone ends up just trying to burst dps as quickly as possible. No strategy. In wow, as a frost mage, I fight a warrior much differently than an enhance shaman (both melee dps) just because of their cc and anti-cc abilities. It makes combat much more interesting when classes are so different. In Warhammer, it's just blah.
2. Fast deaths. No game wants 1 hit kills, and I guess Warhammer decided if they slowed fighting down, it would feel more 'strategic'. But because there really isn't much you 'react' to in combat, it ends up just making the combat feel drawn out and slow. ( ie boring).
This is exactly what Mythic was working on for the latest beta patch 3.3. There is no waiting for a server response anymore when you trigger abilities but unfortunately the animations and some code are now out of sync.
Expect a much smoother experience soon.
Famous last words!!!! <points to funcom forums>
The fact is that combat is slow and sluggish without a lot of 'intervention' type abilities.
Warhammer has played the 'anti wow' card a little two much.
1. CC's. Everyone complained in WOW about being stunlocked from 100-0 by a rogue so Warhammer decided to greatly limit CC's. But they failed to realize that cc's and countering cc's is a huge part of interactive combat. Without CC, then all you have is a numbers game.... your 5 beats my 4 every time. It also makes 1v1 fights much less interesting because everyone ends up just trying to burst dps as quickly as possible. No strategy. In wow, as a frost mage, I fight a warrior much differently than an enhance shaman (both melee dps) just because of their cc and anti-cc abilities. It makes combat much more interesting when classes are so different. In Warhammer, it's just blah.
2. Fast deaths. No game wants 1 hit kills, and I guess Warhammer decided if they slowed fighting down, it would feel more 'strategic'. But because there really isn't much you 'react' to in combat, it ends up just making the combat feel drawn out and slow. ( ie boring).
If that is what you believe is truly fun than there is a great game waiting for you. It even has an expansion coming out. Please don't bring the same crap into another game. WoW is more WoW than I can ever handle.