WoW isn't really a tree though, it just isn't quite as extreme a ladder. In WAR you enter a new tier say T2 of Chaos and you are in CH5 but then you go North for Ch6 but east for CH7. Same thing happens in WoW. From goldshire you go SW for the next zone(westfall) but you go east for the zone after that(lake shire) and then south for the zone after that(duskwood). You still have a pretty natural progression from zone to zone and to get to a signficantly higher level zone you always go through a closer level zone first.
Like I said WoW hid it a bit better but there is not a significant difference.
They are attacking me because they cannot attack the idea, though some have tried. Read the entire threat.
You have to admit that you brought that upon yourself to a certain extent with your condescending retorts and total lack of respect for other people's views.
What is there to respect when the first responses involve lines like "you obviously have not played this game" and "you troll". Give me a break. I have people telling me about how little experience i have in the game, and must not like it, when in line 1 i state i love it and that this is in fact not a flame. Is it not true a lack of reading comprehension? should it not be pointed out? I wouldnt mind an answer if you have one.
In none of my posts have I called you a troll, or put you down. I merely disagreed with your point that character development was minimal. Which, when compared to most other similar games available today it is not and I think that your assessment of that was wrong. Heck I've even agreed with you and confirmed things that you said, yet you labeled me as having no reading comprehension and being stupid.
Forgive me then if I offended you in that manner, or have labeled you unjustly. However I would like to point out an issue of iterpretation. If one were to read say a line saying, "I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve with this post really" and 'Warhammer isn't a sandbox and it's not trying nor pretending to be."
Again, I apologize if I misinterpreted the intention of your post as it gave off the flavor of, well... the usual OP attacker. I do feel I said anywhere that WAR was intending to be otherwise, other than giving the illusion of more.
As for the "troll tagging" and its ilk, it was a general response to the many responses garnished in this thread. I appreciate the support from non biased open minded individuals that have replied and defended the neutrality of the topic.
WoW isn't really a tree though, it just isn't quite as extreme a ladder. In WAR you enter a new tier say T2 of Chaos and you are in CH5 but then you go North for Ch6 but east for CH7. Same thing happens in WoW. From goldshire you go SW for the next zone(westfall) but you go east for the zone after that(lake shire) and then south for the zone after that(duskwood). You still have a pretty natural progression from zone to zone and to get to a signficantly higher level zone you always go through a closer level zone first. Like I said WoW hid it a bit better but there is not a significant difference.
True, it still comes down to illusion. Imagine this though, you are looking down at a map. That map has circles around areas with their intended difficulty. From SW you can go south directly to duskwood, or you can east to lake shire. You are not really being funneled into westfall but thats where you want to go to progress. Yet, as a map you have the freedom of north west east and south, as a map, each one not really divided by loading zones, nor are you penalized for going into zones below your difficulty level. Further more, in duskwood you have some mobs and even areas that are intended for end game play. These are scattered through out the game.
I think of it more as a map, in which you have the freedom to go any direction you wish, though to really move forward you should head to areas of easier difficulty for your level range.
So it really isnt much of a ladder, as compared to something else.
First off, I love WAR. Its fun, enjoyable, and entertaining. Dont take this as a flame, but it would be nice for the player base to recognize it for what it is. Warhammer = Linear Ladder system + Counter strike + minimal character development.
I like counter strike, i like unreal tournament, i love the one side vs another side pvp, I also like rpgs and the depth of character development they bring. If you really think about it, you have 3 maps, with players running around in them and they are broken up into 1, 2, 3, and 4. Its a ladder. There is no world, there is no sandbox, no actual depth to the game world. Its just zone 1-4 in which you pvp. There are 3 ladders which you can pick from but they are the same. Its more like... Spore. You start off small, and just advance into the next stage, then the next and thats it. The items and character development are very very very very minimal. It reminds me of the korean f2p mmorpg item types in which you have one set per 10 levels and they are all the same look wise except for a few stat changes here and there. Further more, even the career paths are ladders.
Basically Warhammer online is one big digital Ladder. aka the WARLadder Online.
Its fun, but its also very linear compared to other MMORPGs on the market. Its a clever illusion, which is the basis of game design, but like games like Guild Wars, and even AoC's instance world play, Mythic is making short cuts to get around actually designing a mmorpg world which many have come to expect from the games that started it all. Its not a bad thing, it funnels the pvp, keeps it organized, but its missing the spirit and design of a full fledged mmorpg.
Just realised noone had quoted the original poster for almost a page. Just thought we need another one.
Kind of amazing that i can support OP's ideas that much in my last post and not get any comments on it all! Is that because what the OP post is fundamental right ! and most of the topic is actual about how much poster feel offended by the way its put and defended! I can understand if thats the reason! But then lets move on!
but get over yourself, you're acting like this "ladder" post is the greatest thought you have ever had..
*nods*
Every mmo is a ladder which is just fine and in WAR? I forget about leveling and gaining xp all the time because I am having so much fun doing the vast amount of content this game offers.
Every game that has a leveling system can be described as a ladder. Same goes for linearity.
Not really, actually. A key feature, aka challenge..challenges build around the concept of rule sets and goals, is found in character progression. Character progression is merely the growth of a character based on a number of variables in which through interaction with the world they are either more or less successful at accomplishing a said goal.
However, the point goes far beyond a lvling system. We are talking about an mmorpg world. North south, west and east. a ladder going goes up and down. In this case, WAR does not have the open world, the north west south and east. It has, like the map shows, 3 ladders which you either go up or down.
In essence, you are a funneled into one spot. Imagine driving down a road and you come at an intersection. You try going left but the street is blocked off by a fallen tree, ok you go right, but thats full of road construction and you cant go that way, so you are forced to go straight ahead.
At every intersection the same thing happens. Meaning, no matter what you are being driven, by the system aka god, into one place. The illusion of options is there, but logically, you are not given those choices as they have in reality been made for you and everyone else.
This is the linearity, the method of progression in which you as a player controlling a computer player will face.
I think you are looking for a Sandbox like EvE online or Ryzom, both outstanding games with strengths and weaknesses, I suggest you try these.
Greetz
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site : http://mmodata.blogspot.be/ Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
I read most of the thread but realised on page 2 that OP is just trolling for the fun of it. The fact that he has no real argument and just repeats himself over and over again as if it makes his points more valid is testimony of his non-arguments and trolling. Well done, 12 pages of troll by OP who pretends he actually knows anything.
Let's take your ladder concept.
you are born
you learn how to crawl
you learn how to walk
you learn how to say a few words (the order of walking and talking can be changed)
you learn how to use the potty
you learn how to use a spoon and fork
you learn how to dress yourself
As you climb the ladder of the greatest MMO ever made, called life, you gain experience, you learn things, you earn credits (grades at school for example) and you earn the right to progress or not to progress to the next level (next grade/class/promotion at work).
So what wa OP's trolling about ladders again? Nothing other than trolling? As I said, 12 pages of troll, well done.
P.S.
You don't like the ladder concept? There are ways to exit this great MMO called life.
Originally posted by aurick The OP's point is very well taken. But is it realistic in today's market? Historically, sandbox games do not do very well. Some can sustain themselves with a small to moderate population, and keep growing over time. (EVE, for example.)
How is EVE a sandbox or not as the OP put it ladder based? It is just cleverly hidden but EVE is a ladder as all MMOs are. Just because there is no character level does not make EVE special. In EVE the ladder is standing with Corporations, that is essentially a level. In EVE your level is also defined by the amount of time you trained which translates to experience. You can not train battlecruiser before you learned spaceship command IV and Cruiser III, it is a ladder as all other games are.
Just had to comment on this, EVE is a very good MMO, but it is the same as all the others in terms of ladder or linear progression.
Thats a really dumb statement. How is EVE a linear game when you can go ANYWHERE at any "level"? The game doesnt restrict you based on how skilled your pilot is so in fact it is nothing like the other mmos at all. There are indeed ladders of progression but the game does not restrict how you choose to play the game based on those ladders. In EVE you can fly and survive anywhere if you are a wise pilot and know what you are doing.
You fail.
It was pointed out already but you can do the same in WAR, you go to any Tier you want in any area. You will just die in a lot of them because you're not strong enough. Its the same in EvE, you can't waltz into 0.0 right off the bat in the game and waltz right back out. And you already admitted it IS a progression ladder system, just like every game is.
I used to listen to what you used to say neon, but right now you're making that pretty hard to respect even reading what you are trolling here.
Yeah except that in WAR each tier is designed for players of a specific level range and anyone lower than that range WILL die but in EVE it is a lot more open than that. You get players of varying degrees of skill flying in 0.0 space and you also cannot neccessarily tell how skillfull they are as they dont have a single number attached to them which denotes how pwerful they are (eg my level 20 spaceship beats your level 10 spaceship just because its got a bigger number). Your choice of ship, the focus of your skills and the selection of modules that you outfit your ship with can determine whether you win or lose a fight. Its possible to defeat a more experienced pilot in this way. The same however cannot be said for WAR. A level 20 player will always defeat a level 10 player no matter what you decide to do.
Yes EVE has a progression ladder system in terms of its skill points BUT the game does not have zones that are aimed at characters with a specific number of skillpoints. It doesnt funnel you like a rat in a maze like WAR does.
So no its NOT the same as EVE actually. Not even close. In fact its glaringly obvious that this is the case so how come you cant see it?
Now that I've just crushed your argument does that mean that I have earned your respect back (lol) or do you still think I'm just trolling by pointing out a fact?
Originally posted by aurick The OP's point is very well taken. But is it realistic in today's market? Historically, sandbox games do not do very well. Some can sustain themselves with a small to moderate population, and keep growing over time. (EVE, for example.)
How is EVE a sandbox or not as the OP put it ladder based? It is just cleverly hidden but EVE is a ladder as all MMOs are. Just because there is no character level does not make EVE special. In EVE the ladder is standing with Corporations, that is essentially a level. In EVE your level is also defined by the amount of time you trained which translates to experience. You can not train battlecruiser before you learned spaceship command IV and Cruiser III, it is a ladder as all other games are.
Just had to comment on this, EVE is a very good MMO, but it is the same as all the others in terms of ladder or linear progression.
Thats a really dumb statement. How is EVE a linear game when you can go ANYWHERE at any "level"? The game doesnt restrict you based on how skilled your pilot is so in fact it is nothing like the other mmos at all. There are indeed ladders of progression but the game does not restrict how you choose to play the game based on those ladders. In EVE you can fly and survive anywhere if you are a wise pilot and know what you are doing.
You fail.
It was pointed out already but you can do the same in WAR, you go to any Tier you want in any area. You will just die in a lot of them because you're not strong enough. Its the same in EvE, you can't waltz into 0.0 right off the bat in the game and waltz right back out. And you already admitted it IS a progression ladder system, just like every game is.
I used to listen to what you used to say neon, but right now you're making that pretty hard to respect even reading what you are trolling here.
Yeah except that in WAR each tier is designed for players of a specific level range and anyone lower than that range WILL die but in EVE it is a lot more open than that. You get players of varying degrees of skill flying in 0.0 space and you also cannot neccessarily tell how skillfull they are as they dont have a single number attached to them which denotes how pwerful they are (eg my level 20 spaceship beats your level 10 spaceship just because its got a bigger number). Your choice of ship, the focus of your skills and the selection of modules that you outfit your ship with can determine whether you win or lose a fight. Its possible to defeat a more experienced pilot in this way. The same however cannot be said for WAR. A level 20 player will always defeat a level 10 player no matter what you decide to do.
Yes EVE has a progression ladder system in terms of its skill points BUT the game does not have zones that are aimed at characters with a specific number of skillpoints. It doesnt funnel you like a rat in a maze like WAR does.
So no its NOT the same as EVE actually. Not even close. In fact its glaringly obvious that this is the case so how come you cant see it?
Now that I've just crushed your argument does that mean that I have earned your respect back (lol) or do you still think I'm just trolling by pointing out a fact?
Since when the funneling its only done at area/map levels ?! Go compare a 3 million point account with a 70 mill one and then come back and tell me that the 3 mill one will win on a frigate fight ...
My challange stands however, name me one MMO that is not character dependant progression. JUST ONE!
One game you say? So I only have to say the word of one game? OK do I win anything for crushing your challenge......
EVE
This thread is like a loose tooth.
Of course EVE is dependant on your character's progression, just like all games are.
Yeah except as I have described in a post just above this one, EVE doesnt restrict where you go based on the progress of your pilot. Sure you can go anywhere in WAR but you can only survive in zones designed for your level range. EVE is more free and open than that.
Sorry but the "progression ladder theory" just doesnt apply to EVE. You are confusing the progression of the players "level" with the design of the game. The design of WAR is that you have to play it in progressive stages......everyone starts in the "weak" area, then everyone moves to the next area and so on......rather like a set of rooms......once you are too big for one room you move to the next room.
EVE is nothing like that. You can go to any room you like and mingle with and fight against players of any level of skill......ao actually the way you play EVE is NOT dependant on the progress of your character.
Man, you sum it all. A ladder. There is a lot of things I did enjoy with WAR, but there where too much I didn't. And one of the main thing was this! It's a ladder!!!!! As I said, it will be a niche game, you'll see in a couple of month.
Oh my gosh! Hush! Be quiet will you! Have you no sense man?! There is far too much agreement with the ladder theory going on in this forum. The fanboys will hear you if too many of you agree. Just keep it down and pretend that its the new future of mmos and hopefully they will pass you by.
I don't think anyone has really disagreed with the OP at all on his amazingly creative MMO Ladder Theory.
Rather they have just questioned his motives for this thread, what he had hoped to gain from it and been offended by his rather basic put downs disguised in some flowery language.
Well I think he hoped to achieve as much as any poster can hope to achieve in these forums.......a good hot raging debate.......or argument if you are of the negative persuasion. In this he appears to have succeeded. OK so he didnt go all fluffy and respect other peoples opinions......but then why should he? If he thinks an opinion is a load of shit (and many of them are) then why should he pay them an ounce of respect? If you disagree with someone why shouldnt you point it out in the clearest possible way?
But yeah he wasnt too polite in some of his posts......but then neither were other people so who cares? Once people start spouting the generic "You are a troll" response (which lets face it is soooooo boring and unoriginal now especially considering that one of the main points of using these forums is to attack and defend ideas) then why should he respond in a respectful manner? F**k it! Treat them like the scum that they are until they can respond with something a bit more worthwhile
Can we get a close on this? It is very obvious the OP just made this to make a giant flame bait topic. He could have explained the exact same thing in a different way, with being less offensive.
Man, you sum it all. A ladder. There is a lot of things I did enjoy with WAR, but there where too much I didn't. And one of the main thing was this! It's a ladder!!!!! As I said, it will be a niche game, you'll see in a couple of month.
WoW is 100% exactly the same thing and I'd say it is not a niche game.
WoW isnt much of a ladder as it is a...
lol - good luck, you're on your own now.
Thats fine with me.
Think on it if you will. You still go up and down, but the process of rising requires well.. branches off to the left and right. Basically, Each race in WoW has their own...area. The root. Each major city in WoW is surrounded by a newbie zone, in which those players then venture farther out from their races city. The farther they go, the harder it gets. They can head off in one direction and find the end game content in the west, or they can go to the east and find the end game content there.
What about the level 70 dungeon in the level 20 zone? You see, in WAR if you go to a lower rank zone you become a chicken. Why? because you are only supposed to go up. WoW has branches that you must goto as you have gone from the roots up and finding different pathways to varied end game content. While the pvp is very simplistic, the game as a whole including pve, is much less defined than a ladder.
Think on it.
So I'm reporting you for trolling, and going to try and get this thread closed. You obviously made this post just to start flame wars. I hope it is closed soon.
Whats the name of the really pompous stuck up little school kid in The Simpsons who complains about Bart?
Sir! Sir! That boy over there just called me a smelly bum and he said I am stupid! Boo hoo!
They are attacking me because they cannot attack the idea, though some have tried. Read the entire threat.
You have to admit that you brought that upon yourself to a certain extent with your condescending retorts and total lack of respect for other people's views.
What is there to respect when the first responses involve lines like "you obviously have not played this game" and "you troll". Give me a break. I have people telling me about how little experience i have in the game, and must not like it, when in line 1 i state i love it and that this is in fact not a flame. Is it not true a lack of reading comprehension took place? should it not be pointed out? I wouldnt mind an answer if you have one.
Your view of condescending is merely an opinion voiced by yourself. I feel my responses were justified and mature. At this point, we have a difference of opinion.
Exactly. Like I also said earlier, stupid comments and statements do not deserve a respectful reply.
I read most of the thread but realised on page 2 that OP is just trolling for the fun of it. The fact that he has no real argument and just repeats himself over and over again as if it makes his points more valid is testimony of his non-arguments and trolling. Well done, 12 pages of troll by OP who pretends he actually knows anything.
Let's take your ladder concept. you are born you learn how to crawl you learn how to walk you learn how to say a few words (the order of walking and talking can be changed) you learn how to use the potty you learn how to use a spoon and fork you learn how to dress yourself
As you climb the ladder of the greatest MMO ever made, called life, you gain experience, you learn things, you earn credits (grades at school for example) and you earn the right to progress or not to progress to the next level (next grade/class/promotion at work).
So what wa OP's trolling about ladders again? Nothing other than trolling? As I said, 12 pages of troll, well done.
P.S. You don't like the ladder concept? There are ways to exit this great MMO called life.
Thats a terrible comparison. In life you are not funneled in a particular direction. You can go anywhere and do anything if you put your mind to it. Also in real life once you reach level 18 (lower for some, higher for others) you can go to areas populated with anyone of any level. In fact you can do it at level 10 if you want.......or maybe even level 5. You can even go adventuring and do quests with someone who is level 80 if you want to.
The OP's post is a LOT more intelligent than what you just came up with. I think its you who has no real argument and is pretending to actually know something. You think the design of WAR is like the design of Life? LMAO! What a joke!!!!
Your post is nothing more than a bog standard "Your a troll" post. Yeah thanks for your input Mr Genius.
Also in real life once you reach level 18 (lower for some, higher for others) you can go to areas populated with anyone of any level. In fact you can do it at level 10 if you want.......or maybe even level 5. You can even go adventuring and do quests with someone who is level 80 if you want to.
Originally posted by aurick The OP's point is very well taken. But is it realistic in today's market? Historically, sandbox games do not do very well. Some can sustain themselves with a small to moderate population, and keep growing over time. (EVE, for example.)
How is EVE a sandbox or not as the OP put it ladder based? It is just cleverly hidden but EVE is a ladder as all MMOs are. Just because there is no character level does not make EVE special. In EVE the ladder is standing with Corporations, that is essentially a level. In EVE your level is also defined by the amount of time you trained which translates to experience. You can not train battlecruiser before you learned spaceship command IV and Cruiser III, it is a ladder as all other games are.
Just had to comment on this, EVE is a very good MMO, but it is the same as all the others in terms of ladder or linear progression.
Thats a really dumb statement. How is EVE a linear game when you can go ANYWHERE at any "level"? The game doesnt restrict you based on how skilled your pilot is so in fact it is nothing like the other mmos at all. There are indeed ladders of progression but the game does not restrict how you choose to play the game based on those ladders. In EVE you can fly and survive anywhere if you are a wise pilot and know what you are doing.
You fail.
It was pointed out already but you can do the same in WAR, you go to any Tier you want in any area. You will just die in a lot of them because you're not strong enough. Its the same in EvE, you can't waltz into 0.0 right off the bat in the game and waltz right back out. And you already admitted it IS a progression ladder system, just like every game is.
I used to listen to what you used to say neon, but right now you're making that pretty hard to respect even reading what you are trolling here.
Yeah except that in WAR each tier is designed for players of a specific level range and anyone lower than that range WILL die but in EVE it is a lot more open than that. You get players of varying degrees of skill flying in 0.0 space and you also cannot neccessarily tell how skillfull they are as they dont have a single number attached to them which denotes how pwerful they are (eg my level 20 spaceship beats your level 10 spaceship just because its got a bigger number). Your choice of ship, the focus of your skills and the selection of modules that you outfit your ship with can determine whether you win or lose a fight. Its possible to defeat a more experienced pilot in this way. The same however cannot be said for WAR. A level 20 player will always defeat a level 10 player no matter what you decide to do.
Yes EVE has a progression ladder system in terms of its skill points BUT the game does not have zones that are aimed at characters with a specific number of skillpoints. It doesnt funnel you like a rat in a maze like WAR does.
So no its NOT the same as EVE actually. Not even close. In fact its glaringly obvious that this is the case so how come you cant see it?
Now that I've just crushed your argument does that mean that I have earned your respect back (lol) or do you still think I'm just trolling by pointing out a fact?
The entire design of Eve is based upon it being very very broad and purposely avoiding extremely deep and involved ladders of anything. There are a few exception like dreadnaughts and such. But those exceptions are almost always extremely specialzied things that you rarely see or have a use for.
That is just a fact. If you don't believe it go read various posts by the devs.
However it is slightly wrong to say that WAR does not have some aspects of Eve. WAR is fundamentally a vertiacal rather than laterl progression game.
However WAR, unlike WoW and other games like it, does have some loadout ability similar to Eve ship loadout. in its Tactics. Tactics are significant. By level 40 you get 5 or more and they are pretty big boosts. You can swap the tactic loadout combination you have 5 seconds after each fight.
Just like an Eve pilot can swap out a frigate for a cruiser.
Anyway there is nothing wrong with lateral or vertical progression. They both have good points and bad points. WAR is definitely a vertical progression game. But I am glad they have signficiant lateral-type loadout usage.
Originally posted by aurick The OP's point is very well taken. But is it realistic in today's market? Historically, sandbox games do not do very well. Some can sustain themselves with a small to moderate population, and keep growing over time. (EVE, for example.)
How is EVE a sandbox or not as the OP put it ladder based? It is just cleverly hidden but EVE is a ladder as all MMOs are. Just because there is no character level does not make EVE special. In EVE the ladder is standing with Corporations, that is essentially a level. In EVE your level is also defined by the amount of time you trained which translates to experience. You can not train battlecruiser before you learned spaceship command IV and Cruiser III, it is a ladder as all other games are.
Just had to comment on this, EVE is a very good MMO, but it is the same as all the others in terms of ladder or linear progression.
Thats a really dumb statement. How is EVE a linear game when you can go ANYWHERE at any "level"? The game doesnt restrict you based on how skilled your pilot is so in fact it is nothing like the other mmos at all. There are indeed ladders of progression but the game does not restrict how you choose to play the game based on those ladders. In EVE you can fly and survive anywhere if you are a wise pilot and know what you are doing.
You fail.
It was pointed out already but you can do the same in WAR, you go to any Tier you want in any area. You will just die in a lot of them because you're not strong enough. Its the same in EvE, you can't waltz into 0.0 right off the bat in the game and waltz right back out. And you already admitted it IS a progression ladder system, just like every game is.
I used to listen to what you used to say neon, but right now you're making that pretty hard to respect even reading what you are trolling here.
Yeah except that in WAR each tier is designed for players of a specific level range and anyone lower than that range WILL die but in EVE it is a lot more open than that. You get players of varying degrees of skill flying in 0.0 space and you also cannot neccessarily tell how skillfull they are as they dont have a single number attached to them which denotes how pwerful they are (eg my level 20 spaceship beats your level 10 spaceship just because its got a bigger number). Your choice of ship, the focus of your skills and the selection of modules that you outfit your ship with can determine whether you win or lose a fight. Its possible to defeat a more experienced pilot in this way. The same however cannot be said for WAR. A level 20 player will always defeat a level 10 player no matter what you decide to do.
Yes EVE has a progression ladder system in terms of its skill points BUT the game does not have zones that are aimed at characters with a specific number of skillpoints. It doesnt funnel you like a rat in a maze like WAR does.
So no its NOT the same as EVE actually. Not even close. In fact its glaringly obvious that this is the case so how come you cant see it?
Now that I've just crushed your argument does that mean that I have earned your respect back (lol) or do you still think I'm just trolling by pointing out a fact?
Since when the funneling its only done at area/map levels ?! Go compare a 3 million point account with a 70 mill one and then come back and tell me that the 3 mill one will win on a frigate fight ...
Yeah the 3 million sp pilot has a good chance of having his arse handed to him but its not guaranteed. It depends on how each pilot has trained and also on what other choices they have made. If both pilots are in a frigate then there are only a specific number of skills that each pilot can bring to bare on each other. Remember that there are only 5 levels to each skill and it doesnt take too long for a noob pilot to almost max out a set of skills and use all of them for a frigate. Each skill also usually only adds a 2% or 5% increase in that particular skill. So an experienced player can have 1000000000 million sp and yet when he is flying a frigate he will only be able to use a tiny portion of those skillpoints. The noob pilot will only have his 3 million sp but they will all be focused into one specific role (flying his frigate) so actually the difference wont be that massive.
So yeah here I am coming back and telling you that the noob pilot could still actually win.
In WAR however a player who is level 40 will always beat a level 10 player no matter what.
My challange stands however, name me one MMO that is not character dependant progression. JUST ONE!
One game you say? So I only have to say the word of one game? OK do I win anything for crushing your challenge......
EVE
This thread is like a loose tooth.
Of course EVE is dependant on your character's progression, just like all games are.
Yeah except as I have described in a post just above this one, EVE doesnt restrict where you go based on the progress of your pilot. Sure you can go anywhere in WAR but you can only survive in zones designed for your level range. EVE is more free and open than that.
Sorry but the "progression ladder theory" just doesnt apply to EVE. You are confusing the progression of the players "level" with the design of the game. The design of WAR is that you have to play it in progressive stages......everyone starts in the "weak" area, then everyone moves to the next area and so on......rather like a set of rooms......once you are too big for one room you move to the next room.
EVE is nothing like that. You can go to any room you like and mingle with and fight against players of any level of skill......ao actually the way you play EVE is NOT dependant on the progress of your character.
You fail.
I can't go and successfully kill rats in 0.0 as soon as I start the game. I have to get some skills, some ISK and better ships before I can do that.
Comments
WoW isn't really a tree though, it just isn't quite as extreme a ladder. In WAR you enter a new tier say T2 of Chaos and you are in CH5 but then you go North for Ch6 but east for CH7. Same thing happens in WoW. From goldshire you go SW for the next zone(westfall) but you go east for the zone after that(lake shire) and then south for the zone after that(duskwood). You still have a pretty natural progression from zone to zone and to get to a signficantly higher level zone you always go through a closer level zone first.
Like I said WoW hid it a bit better but there is not a significant difference.
You have to admit that you brought that upon yourself to a certain extent with your condescending retorts and total lack of respect for other people's views.
What is there to respect when the first responses involve lines like "you obviously have not played this game" and "you troll". Give me a break. I have people telling me about how little experience i have in the game, and must not like it, when in line 1 i state i love it and that this is in fact not a flame. Is it not true a lack of reading comprehension? should it not be pointed out? I wouldnt mind an answer if you have one.
In none of my posts have I called you a troll, or put you down. I merely disagreed with your point that character development was minimal. Which, when compared to most other similar games available today it is not and I think that your assessment of that was wrong. Heck I've even agreed with you and confirmed things that you said, yet you labeled me as having no reading comprehension and being stupid.
Forgive me then if I offended you in that manner, or have labeled you unjustly. However I would like to point out an issue of iterpretation. If one were to read say a line saying, "I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve with this post really" and 'Warhammer isn't a sandbox and it's not trying nor pretending to be."
Again, I apologize if I misinterpreted the intention of your post as it gave off the flavor of, well... the usual OP attacker. I do feel I said anywhere that WAR was intending to be otherwise, other than giving the illusion of more.
As for the "troll tagging" and its ilk, it was a general response to the many responses garnished in this thread. I appreciate the support from non biased open minded individuals that have replied and defended the neutrality of the topic.
True, it still comes down to illusion. Imagine this though, you are looking down at a map. That map has circles around areas with their intended difficulty. From SW you can go south directly to duskwood, or you can east to lake shire. You are not really being funneled into westfall but thats where you want to go to progress. Yet, as a map you have the freedom of north west east and south, as a map, each one not really divided by loading zones, nor are you penalized for going into zones below your difficulty level. Further more, in duskwood you have some mobs and even areas that are intended for end game play. These are scattered through out the game.
I think of it more as a map, in which you have the freedom to go any direction you wish, though to really move forward you should head to areas of easier difficulty for your level range.
So it really isnt much of a ladder, as compared to something else.
Just realised noone had quoted the original poster for almost a page. Just thought we need another one.
I would suggest that a better analogy for WoW would be a spiders web, rather than a tree, with endgame in the centre.
Hmm perhaps you are right on that one. Yes I can see it now. Well put.
Hmm, I've never really gotten angry at a forum post before.. but after reading a bit through this I feel the need to post.
To the OP, you seem like a smart dude, but get over yourself, you're acting like this "ladder" post is the greatest thought you have ever had..
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Kind of amazing that i can support OP's ideas that much in my last post and not get any comments on it all! Is that because what the OP post is fundamental right ! and most of the topic is actual about how much poster feel offended by the way its put and defended! I can understand if thats the reason! But then lets move on!
*nods*
Every mmo is a ladder which is just fine and in WAR? I forget about leveling and gaining xp all the time because I am having so much fun doing the vast amount of content this game offers.
My brand new bloggity blog.
Every game that has a leveling system can be described as a ladder. Same goes for linearity.
Not really, actually. A key feature, aka challenge..challenges build around the concept of rule sets and goals, is found in character progression. Character progression is merely the growth of a character based on a number of variables in which through interaction with the world they are either more or less successful at accomplishing a said goal.
However, the point goes far beyond a lvling system. We are talking about an mmorpg world. North south, west and east. a ladder going goes up and down. In this case, WAR does not have the open world, the north west south and east. It has, like the map shows, 3 ladders which you either go up or down.
In essence, you are a funneled into one spot. Imagine driving down a road and you come at an intersection. You try going left but the street is blocked off by a fallen tree, ok you go right, but thats full of road construction and you cant go that way, so you are forced to go straight ahead.
At every intersection the same thing happens. Meaning, no matter what you are being driven, by the system aka god, into one place. The illusion of options is there, but logically, you are not given those choices as they have in reality been made for you and everyone else.
This is the linearity, the method of progression in which you as a player controlling a computer player will face.
I think you are looking for a Sandbox like EvE online or Ryzom, both outstanding games with strengths and weaknesses, I suggest you try these.
Greetz
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site :
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Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
I read most of the thread but realised on page 2 that OP is just trolling for the fun of it. The fact that he has no real argument and just repeats himself over and over again as if it makes his points more valid is testimony of his non-arguments and trolling. Well done, 12 pages of troll by OP who pretends he actually knows anything.
Let's take your ladder concept.
you are born
you learn how to crawl
you learn how to walk
you learn how to say a few words (the order of walking and talking can be changed)
you learn how to use the potty
you learn how to use a spoon and fork
you learn how to dress yourself
As you climb the ladder of the greatest MMO ever made, called life, you gain experience, you learn things, you earn credits (grades at school for example) and you earn the right to progress or not to progress to the next level (next grade/class/promotion at work).
So what wa OP's trolling about ladders again? Nothing other than trolling? As I said, 12 pages of troll, well done.
P.S.
You don't like the ladder concept? There are ways to exit this great MMO called life.
How is EVE a sandbox or not as the OP put it ladder based? It is just cleverly hidden but EVE is a ladder as all MMOs are. Just because there is no character level does not make EVE special. In EVE the ladder is standing with Corporations, that is essentially a level. In EVE your level is also defined by the amount of time you trained which translates to experience. You can not train battlecruiser before you learned spaceship command IV and Cruiser III, it is a ladder as all other games are.
Just had to comment on this, EVE is a very good MMO, but it is the same as all the others in terms of ladder or linear progression.
Thats a really dumb statement. How is EVE a linear game when you can go ANYWHERE at any "level"? The game doesnt restrict you based on how skilled your pilot is so in fact it is nothing like the other mmos at all. There are indeed ladders of progression but the game does not restrict how you choose to play the game based on those ladders. In EVE you can fly and survive anywhere if you are a wise pilot and know what you are doing.
You fail.
It was pointed out already but you can do the same in WAR, you go to any Tier you want in any area. You will just die in a lot of them because you're not strong enough. Its the same in EvE, you can't waltz into 0.0 right off the bat in the game and waltz right back out. And you already admitted it IS a progression ladder system, just like every game is.
I used to listen to what you used to say neon, but right now you're making that pretty hard to respect even reading what you are trolling here.
Yeah except that in WAR each tier is designed for players of a specific level range and anyone lower than that range WILL die but in EVE it is a lot more open than that. You get players of varying degrees of skill flying in 0.0 space and you also cannot neccessarily tell how skillfull they are as they dont have a single number attached to them which denotes how pwerful they are (eg my level 20 spaceship beats your level 10 spaceship just because its got a bigger number). Your choice of ship, the focus of your skills and the selection of modules that you outfit your ship with can determine whether you win or lose a fight. Its possible to defeat a more experienced pilot in this way. The same however cannot be said for WAR. A level 20 player will always defeat a level 10 player no matter what you decide to do.
Yes EVE has a progression ladder system in terms of its skill points BUT the game does not have zones that are aimed at characters with a specific number of skillpoints. It doesnt funnel you like a rat in a maze like WAR does.
So no its NOT the same as EVE actually. Not even close. In fact its glaringly obvious that this is the case so how come you cant see it?
Now that I've just crushed your argument does that mean that I have earned your respect back (lol) or do you still think I'm just trolling by pointing out a fact?
How is EVE a sandbox or not as the OP put it ladder based? It is just cleverly hidden but EVE is a ladder as all MMOs are. Just because there is no character level does not make EVE special. In EVE the ladder is standing with Corporations, that is essentially a level. In EVE your level is also defined by the amount of time you trained which translates to experience. You can not train battlecruiser before you learned spaceship command IV and Cruiser III, it is a ladder as all other games are.
Just had to comment on this, EVE is a very good MMO, but it is the same as all the others in terms of ladder or linear progression.
Thats a really dumb statement. How is EVE a linear game when you can go ANYWHERE at any "level"? The game doesnt restrict you based on how skilled your pilot is so in fact it is nothing like the other mmos at all. There are indeed ladders of progression but the game does not restrict how you choose to play the game based on those ladders. In EVE you can fly and survive anywhere if you are a wise pilot and know what you are doing.
You fail.
It was pointed out already but you can do the same in WAR, you go to any Tier you want in any area. You will just die in a lot of them because you're not strong enough. Its the same in EvE, you can't waltz into 0.0 right off the bat in the game and waltz right back out. And you already admitted it IS a progression ladder system, just like every game is.
I used to listen to what you used to say neon, but right now you're making that pretty hard to respect even reading what you are trolling here.
Yeah except that in WAR each tier is designed for players of a specific level range and anyone lower than that range WILL die but in EVE it is a lot more open than that. You get players of varying degrees of skill flying in 0.0 space and you also cannot neccessarily tell how skillfull they are as they dont have a single number attached to them which denotes how pwerful they are (eg my level 20 spaceship beats your level 10 spaceship just because its got a bigger number). Your choice of ship, the focus of your skills and the selection of modules that you outfit your ship with can determine whether you win or lose a fight. Its possible to defeat a more experienced pilot in this way. The same however cannot be said for WAR. A level 20 player will always defeat a level 10 player no matter what you decide to do.
Yes EVE has a progression ladder system in terms of its skill points BUT the game does not have zones that are aimed at characters with a specific number of skillpoints. It doesnt funnel you like a rat in a maze like WAR does.
So no its NOT the same as EVE actually. Not even close. In fact its glaringly obvious that this is the case so how come you cant see it?
Now that I've just crushed your argument does that mean that I have earned your respect back (lol) or do you still think I'm just trolling by pointing out a fact?
Since when the funneling its only done at area/map levels ?! Go compare a 3 million point account with a 70 mill one and then come back and tell me that the 3 mill one will win on a frigate fight ...
One game you say? So I only have to say the word of one game? OK do I win anything for crushing your challenge......
EVE
This thread is like a loose tooth.
Of course EVE is dependant on your character's progression, just like all games are.
Yeah except as I have described in a post just above this one, EVE doesnt restrict where you go based on the progress of your pilot. Sure you can go anywhere in WAR but you can only survive in zones designed for your level range. EVE is more free and open than that.
Sorry but the "progression ladder theory" just doesnt apply to EVE. You are confusing the progression of the players "level" with the design of the game. The design of WAR is that you have to play it in progressive stages......everyone starts in the "weak" area, then everyone moves to the next area and so on......rather like a set of rooms......once you are too big for one room you move to the next room.
EVE is nothing like that. You can go to any room you like and mingle with and fight against players of any level of skill......ao actually the way you play EVE is NOT dependant on the progress of your character.
You fail.
Oh my gosh! Hush! Be quiet will you! Have you no sense man?! There is far too much agreement with the ladder theory going on in this forum. The fanboys will hear you if too many of you agree. Just keep it down and pretend that its the new future of mmos and hopefully they will pass you by.
I don't think anyone has really disagreed with the OP at all on his amazingly creative MMO Ladder Theory.
Rather they have just questioned his motives for this thread, what he had hoped to gain from it and been offended by his rather basic put downs disguised in some flowery language.
Well I think he hoped to achieve as much as any poster can hope to achieve in these forums.......a good hot raging debate.......or argument if you are of the negative persuasion. In this he appears to have succeeded. OK so he didnt go all fluffy and respect other peoples opinions......but then why should he? If he thinks an opinion is a load of shit (and many of them are) then why should he pay them an ounce of respect? If you disagree with someone why shouldnt you point it out in the clearest possible way?
But yeah he wasnt too polite in some of his posts......but then neither were other people so who cares? Once people start spouting the generic "You are a troll" response (which lets face it is soooooo boring and unoriginal now especially considering that one of the main points of using these forums is to attack and defend ideas) then why should he respond in a respectful manner? F**k it! Treat them like the scum that they are until they can respond with something a bit more worthwhile
Go Rabenwolf! Keep up the good work!
....and where would be the fun in that?
WoW is 100% exactly the same thing and I'd say it is not a niche game.
WoW isnt much of a ladder as it is a...
lol - good luck, you're on your own now.
Thats fine with me.
Think on it if you will. You still go up and down, but the process of rising requires well.. branches off to the left and right. Basically, Each race in WoW has their own...area. The root. Each major city in WoW is surrounded by a newbie zone, in which those players then venture farther out from their races city. The farther they go, the harder it gets. They can head off in one direction and find the end game content in the west, or they can go to the east and find the end game content there.
What about the level 70 dungeon in the level 20 zone? You see, in WAR if you go to a lower rank zone you become a chicken. Why? because you are only supposed to go up. WoW has branches that you must goto as you have gone from the roots up and finding different pathways to varied end game content. While the pvp is very simplistic, the game as a whole including pve, is much less defined than a ladder.
Think on it.
So I'm reporting you for trolling, and going to try and get this thread closed. You obviously made this post just to start flame wars. I hope it is closed soon.
Whats the name of the really pompous stuck up little school kid in The Simpsons who complains about Bart?
Sir! Sir! That boy over there just called me a smelly bum and he said I am stupid! Boo hoo!
Are you gonna report me as well now ya cry baby?
You have to admit that you brought that upon yourself to a certain extent with your condescending retorts and total lack of respect for other people's views.
What is there to respect when the first responses involve lines like "you obviously have not played this game" and "you troll". Give me a break. I have people telling me about how little experience i have in the game, and must not like it, when in line 1 i state i love it and that this is in fact not a flame. Is it not true a lack of reading comprehension took place? should it not be pointed out? I wouldnt mind an answer if you have one.
Your view of condescending is merely an opinion voiced by yourself. I feel my responses were justified and mature. At this point, we have a difference of opinion.
Exactly. Like I also said earlier, stupid comments and statements do not deserve a respectful reply.
It is a ladder and about as inspired in design and implementation as one you can buy at Sears...
Thats a terrible comparison. In life you are not funneled in a particular direction. You can go anywhere and do anything if you put your mind to it. Also in real life once you reach level 18 (lower for some, higher for others) you can go to areas populated with anyone of any level. In fact you can do it at level 10 if you want.......or maybe even level 5. You can even go adventuring and do quests with someone who is level 80 if you want to.
The OP's post is a LOT more intelligent than what you just came up with. I think its you who has no real argument and is pretending to actually know something. You think the design of WAR is like the design of Life? LMAO! What a joke!!!!
Your post is nothing more than a bog standard "Your a troll" post. Yeah thanks for your input Mr Genius.
Pure genius. Thanks for the smile
How is EVE a sandbox or not as the OP put it ladder based? It is just cleverly hidden but EVE is a ladder as all MMOs are. Just because there is no character level does not make EVE special. In EVE the ladder is standing with Corporations, that is essentially a level. In EVE your level is also defined by the amount of time you trained which translates to experience. You can not train battlecruiser before you learned spaceship command IV and Cruiser III, it is a ladder as all other games are.
Just had to comment on this, EVE is a very good MMO, but it is the same as all the others in terms of ladder or linear progression.
Thats a really dumb statement. How is EVE a linear game when you can go ANYWHERE at any "level"? The game doesnt restrict you based on how skilled your pilot is so in fact it is nothing like the other mmos at all. There are indeed ladders of progression but the game does not restrict how you choose to play the game based on those ladders. In EVE you can fly and survive anywhere if you are a wise pilot and know what you are doing.
You fail.
It was pointed out already but you can do the same in WAR, you go to any Tier you want in any area. You will just die in a lot of them because you're not strong enough. Its the same in EvE, you can't waltz into 0.0 right off the bat in the game and waltz right back out. And you already admitted it IS a progression ladder system, just like every game is.
I used to listen to what you used to say neon, but right now you're making that pretty hard to respect even reading what you are trolling here.
Yeah except that in WAR each tier is designed for players of a specific level range and anyone lower than that range WILL die but in EVE it is a lot more open than that. You get players of varying degrees of skill flying in 0.0 space and you also cannot neccessarily tell how skillfull they are as they dont have a single number attached to them which denotes how pwerful they are (eg my level 20 spaceship beats your level 10 spaceship just because its got a bigger number). Your choice of ship, the focus of your skills and the selection of modules that you outfit your ship with can determine whether you win or lose a fight. Its possible to defeat a more experienced pilot in this way. The same however cannot be said for WAR. A level 20 player will always defeat a level 10 player no matter what you decide to do.
Yes EVE has a progression ladder system in terms of its skill points BUT the game does not have zones that are aimed at characters with a specific number of skillpoints. It doesnt funnel you like a rat in a maze like WAR does.
So no its NOT the same as EVE actually. Not even close. In fact its glaringly obvious that this is the case so how come you cant see it?
Now that I've just crushed your argument does that mean that I have earned your respect back (lol) or do you still think I'm just trolling by pointing out a fact?
The entire design of Eve is based upon it being very very broad and purposely avoiding extremely deep and involved ladders of anything. There are a few exception like dreadnaughts and such. But those exceptions are almost always extremely specialzied things that you rarely see or have a use for.
That is just a fact. If you don't believe it go read various posts by the devs.
However it is slightly wrong to say that WAR does not have some aspects of Eve. WAR is fundamentally a vertiacal rather than laterl progression game.
However WAR, unlike WoW and other games like it, does have some loadout ability similar to Eve ship loadout. in its Tactics. Tactics are significant. By level 40 you get 5 or more and they are pretty big boosts. You can swap the tactic loadout combination you have 5 seconds after each fight.
Just like an Eve pilot can swap out a frigate for a cruiser.
Anyway there is nothing wrong with lateral or vertical progression. They both have good points and bad points. WAR is definitely a vertical progression game. But I am glad they have signficiant lateral-type loadout usage.
LOL ? Aww so sweet i never knew aliens was watching us!
How is EVE a sandbox or not as the OP put it ladder based? It is just cleverly hidden but EVE is a ladder as all MMOs are. Just because there is no character level does not make EVE special. In EVE the ladder is standing with Corporations, that is essentially a level. In EVE your level is also defined by the amount of time you trained which translates to experience. You can not train battlecruiser before you learned spaceship command IV and Cruiser III, it is a ladder as all other games are.
Just had to comment on this, EVE is a very good MMO, but it is the same as all the others in terms of ladder or linear progression.
Thats a really dumb statement. How is EVE a linear game when you can go ANYWHERE at any "level"? The game doesnt restrict you based on how skilled your pilot is so in fact it is nothing like the other mmos at all. There are indeed ladders of progression but the game does not restrict how you choose to play the game based on those ladders. In EVE you can fly and survive anywhere if you are a wise pilot and know what you are doing.
You fail.
It was pointed out already but you can do the same in WAR, you go to any Tier you want in any area. You will just die in a lot of them because you're not strong enough. Its the same in EvE, you can't waltz into 0.0 right off the bat in the game and waltz right back out. And you already admitted it IS a progression ladder system, just like every game is.
I used to listen to what you used to say neon, but right now you're making that pretty hard to respect even reading what you are trolling here.
Yeah except that in WAR each tier is designed for players of a specific level range and anyone lower than that range WILL die but in EVE it is a lot more open than that. You get players of varying degrees of skill flying in 0.0 space and you also cannot neccessarily tell how skillfull they are as they dont have a single number attached to them which denotes how pwerful they are (eg my level 20 spaceship beats your level 10 spaceship just because its got a bigger number). Your choice of ship, the focus of your skills and the selection of modules that you outfit your ship with can determine whether you win or lose a fight. Its possible to defeat a more experienced pilot in this way. The same however cannot be said for WAR. A level 20 player will always defeat a level 10 player no matter what you decide to do.
Yes EVE has a progression ladder system in terms of its skill points BUT the game does not have zones that are aimed at characters with a specific number of skillpoints. It doesnt funnel you like a rat in a maze like WAR does.
So no its NOT the same as EVE actually. Not even close. In fact its glaringly obvious that this is the case so how come you cant see it?
Now that I've just crushed your argument does that mean that I have earned your respect back (lol) or do you still think I'm just trolling by pointing out a fact?
Since when the funneling its only done at area/map levels ?! Go compare a 3 million point account with a 70 mill one and then come back and tell me that the 3 mill one will win on a frigate fight ...
Yeah the 3 million sp pilot has a good chance of having his arse handed to him but its not guaranteed. It depends on how each pilot has trained and also on what other choices they have made. If both pilots are in a frigate then there are only a specific number of skills that each pilot can bring to bare on each other. Remember that there are only 5 levels to each skill and it doesnt take too long for a noob pilot to almost max out a set of skills and use all of them for a frigate. Each skill also usually only adds a 2% or 5% increase in that particular skill. So an experienced player can have 1000000000 million sp and yet when he is flying a frigate he will only be able to use a tiny portion of those skillpoints. The noob pilot will only have his 3 million sp but they will all be focused into one specific role (flying his frigate) so actually the difference wont be that massive.
So yeah here I am coming back and telling you that the noob pilot could still actually win.
In WAR however a player who is level 40 will always beat a level 10 player no matter what.
One game you say? So I only have to say the word of one game? OK do I win anything for crushing your challenge......
EVE
This thread is like a loose tooth.
Of course EVE is dependant on your character's progression, just like all games are.
Yeah except as I have described in a post just above this one, EVE doesnt restrict where you go based on the progress of your pilot. Sure you can go anywhere in WAR but you can only survive in zones designed for your level range. EVE is more free and open than that.
Sorry but the "progression ladder theory" just doesnt apply to EVE. You are confusing the progression of the players "level" with the design of the game. The design of WAR is that you have to play it in progressive stages......everyone starts in the "weak" area, then everyone moves to the next area and so on......rather like a set of rooms......once you are too big for one room you move to the next room.
EVE is nothing like that. You can go to any room you like and mingle with and fight against players of any level of skill......ao actually the way you play EVE is NOT dependant on the progress of your character.
You fail.
I can't go and successfully kill rats in 0.0 as soon as I start the game. I have to get some skills, some ISK and better ships before I can do that.
Sound similar to anything else?