WAR does do PvP right, by giving players incentive to fight. What did WoW give before the latest patch for killing opposing forces? NOTHING!
And you know what ? People in WOW actually pvped for fun without any rewards, before a ranking system etc. came out !
Orly? I played wow for 4 years, and I can tell you 90% of all pvp activity on a pvp server in WoW was done out of kill griefing. Thats right...and anyone saying otherwise is a liar. You had level 70's going to Tarren Mill and South Shore camping 20-35's and killing the npc quest givers and guards.
<removed my reply>
Forget about it, these forums are so full of wow hatred for whatever reason....
He is right though, even if a little misinformed. Player ganking on pvp servers where rampant in those zones. Decked out 60's came and ganked left and right. There was a reason those zones where hated, and avoided like the plague back then. STV where particulary bad, and still is on pvp servers. Only time you could level in relatively safety was in offpeak hours, allthough even then you faced the occasional gank and corpse-camping.
Seems like everytime someone get the chance to go back and kill lowbies in some mmo, they will do it. Makes them feel good about themselfes or something to grief the lowbie. That's human nature for you. Kick the person lying down, cause he can't hit you back I see this on the pvp servers in WAR aswell, so it's not something unique to WoW. They are bleeding cowards though, even though it's only games. When you're afraid to get hit too hard on your virtual character, then you really need to grow some balls.
Concerning the wow hatred, yeah couldn't agree more. It's borderline insanity the way the haters go about hating WoW around here. They are as sad the the NGE-haters really. NGE been out for what, some 3 years now. Time to let it go guys. I pity the boy/girlfriend that have left/will leave you eventually if you obsess as much about them as you do the game.
But please tell me how that, in any way shape or form, relates to the early TM <> South Shore or CrossRoad raids people did for fun and without any incentive ?
And when you play on a pvp server you can always expect to be ganked by idiots, no matter what game you play... But that doesn't have anything to do with this topic.
But please tell me how that, in any way shape or form, relates to the early TM <> South Shore or CrossRoad raids people did for fun and without any incentive ? And when you play on a pvp server you can always expect to be ganked by idiots, no matter what game you play... But that doesn't have anything to do with this topic.
Nothing. I did say he was misinformed, yes. People pvp for fun in WoW still. There was the occasional pvp-raid on quest hubs and major cities when I still played, and I'm sure it's still going on. Got a little unsteady when mass amount of people showed up on both sides, but other than that, it was fun, and the only reward to be had, was the pvp itself.
Originally posted by slask777 Originally posted by zimmy910 But please tell me how that, in any way shape or form, relates to the early TM <> South Shore or CrossRoad raids people did for fun and without any incentive ?
Nothing. I did say he was misinformed, yes. People pvp for fun in WoW still. There was the occasional pvp-raid on quest hubs and major cities when I still played, and I'm sure it's still going on.
Glad you agree, thought I was overlooking something obvious .
But please tell me how that, in any way shape or form, relates to the early TM <> South Shore or CrossRoad raids people did for fun and without any incentive ? And when you play on a pvp server you can always expect to be ganked by idiots, no matter what game you play... But that doesn't have anything to do with this topic.
Nothing. I did say he was misinformed, yes. People pvp for fun in WoW still. There was the occasional pvp-raid on quest hubs and major cities when I still played, and I'm sure it's still going on. Got a little unsteady when mass amount of people showed up on both sides, but other than that, it was fun, and the only reward to be had, was the pvp itself.
True but its no common. (once every few weeks is not common)
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
When this occurred regularly early in the game's existence, there wasn't THAT much else to do at lvl cap. MC, Stratholme and Scholomance runs ad nauseam and that was it. So people started organizing their own fun .
But please tell me how that, in any way shape or form, relates to the early TM <> South Shore or CrossRoad raids people did for fun and without any incentive ? And when you play on a pvp server you can always expect to be ganked by idiots, no matter what game you play... But that doesn't have anything to do with this topic.
Nothing. I did say he was misinformed, yes. People pvp for fun in WoW still. There was the occasional pvp-raid on quest hubs and major cities when I still played, and I'm sure it's still going on. Got a little unsteady when mass amount of people showed up on both sides, but other than that, it was fun, and the only reward to be had, was the pvp itself.
True but its no common. (once every few weeks is not common)
Go play on a pvp server and come say that again. Who cares about all the pve'ers, which I suspect is most of WoW's playerbase actually. They ain't there to pvp anyway.
I don't hate WoW but I prefer PvP/open RvR and WAR lore, so it has more appealing for me than WoW has had ever... or will have, whatever they do to the game.
I play in a casual way, for the moment, i like exploring and make my achievements, right added to my precious Tome Of Knowledge. Don´t hurry, enjoy the game and its impressive lore - and though it has not the Crysis graphics nor will have them - i like to walk and doing the PQ's, some grind a la Lineage2 and get a better knowledge of Warhammer World.
Well, barely have time to play, but I do love this game.
WoW has its own charm, nevertheless WAR will open a new frame of gaming: open RvR will start when people it's done with the game and the classes. Changing the world and the environment by achievements will have impact when it's discovered and practised fluently and daily by players.
WoW will have the lich king to grind it up. Hmm, how funny.
Also level 19 twink in WoW is "exstensive grinding"? Even for a twink that is an overstatement if ever there was one. Though I agree with leveling alts. Not anywhere near as much fun the second time around.
Heh, my brother's 19 twink hunter cost him close to 2000 gold for the necessary gear, plus a lot of off-time gear-drop research and being run through crucial quests by his friends. That's too much grinding for me, thanks!
Just because your brother considers 2000 gold worth of gear as "essential" that doesn't make twinking an extensive grind. You know the old saying about a fool and his money.
I'll be sure to let my brother know, along with all of those foolish enough to follow the twink guide he used - like most everyone in his guild. Perhaps your own twink is quite as 'twinkie' as you think ;P
So if your friend jumped off a bridge.....
Sorry, twinking a level 19 character is hardly an excessive grind. If your brother has 2000 gold to waste on a twink, more power to him. However don't try to make the whole game out as something it is not based on a twink guide some people who need someone else to tell them how to play.
OP: you're right. Absolutely nothing. I canceled WAR after two days. Couldn't stand the grind, the ridiculously piss-poor animations, and all the bugs. By the time I got to level 3 I knew the game was going downhill from there. The battlegrounds are worse than WoW's. The scenarios are meaningless because they don't affect the real world. Thank God WoW doesn't have a grind. WoW has MUCH better RvR too - it's called ARENA - the single greatest PvP mode in MMO history. Fun, exciting, BALANCED (every class is equally represented, as it should be) - unlike the horribly imbalanced mess that is WAR.
Also level 19 twink in WoW is "exstensive grinding"? Even for a twink that is an overstatement if ever there was one. Though I agree with leveling alts. Not anywhere near as much fun the second time around.
Heh, my brother's 19 twink hunter cost him close to 2000 gold for the necessary gear, plus a lot of off-time gear-drop research and being run through crucial quests by his friends. That's too much grinding for me, thanks!
Just because your brother considers 2000 gold worth of gear as "essential" that doesn't make twinking an extensive grind. You know the old saying about a fool and his money.
I'll be sure to let my brother know, along with all of those foolish enough to follow the twink guide he used - like most everyone in his guild. Perhaps your own twink is quite as 'twinkie' as you think ;P
WoW is a Rolls Royce, Warhammer Online is a Ferrari. Both are awesome cars but no one expects a Rolls to win a race with a Ferrari and no one expects a Ferrari to be as luxurious as a Rolls (I still wouldn't mind owning either one, though).
Basically they summarize that if you like raiding, play WoW. If you like PvP, play WAR.
People need to deal with the fact that the MMORPG market is expanding so people can now pick which game they want to play. Neither is 'better' anymore than cake or pie are better or worse (even though pie is clearly superior)
Too easy. Diverse classes. You see in wow, there are 8 generic, cookie cutter classes. The ultimate slap in the face is that Horde can play Paladins. I first started playing Warcraft in '96 and horde was evil. they had Death Knights -- alliance had paladins. But blizz had to sell out and take the easy way and make both factions have the same generic classes.
Also in WAR, the bad guys are evil -- unlike wow whereas the bad guys are "misunderstood."
Hope you enjoy your paladin v paladin fights. Cuz i sure didnt. Big reason why I quit -- CLASSES. Something WAR did right. We got more to choose from and they are fairly unique and different.
Again, this was too easy.
Pathetic. You got all your WAR lore "facts" wrong. Your argument fails right there in the beginning.
please explain what WAR lore facts are wrong. I cant wait for this...
Duh, everyone knows WoW came first and WAR copied everything WoW represents. Anyhow, despite how stupid that is, WoW fans don't know any better and whats worse is like someone already said. Blizzard sold out on its own lore and gave Paladins to both sides as well as Shamans. Basically taking the only diversity left in the game out. Can anyone say, worthless and lazy choice for a PvP lacking game?
the bland, cookie cutter classes to choose from in wow is in a word, pathetic. I couldnt believe when they gave paladins to the horde -- like I said, I started playing Warcraft in '96 -- paladins where one of the most powerful alliance units and death knights where all horde --
my how things have changed for blizzard. Just too easy for them to give paladins to both sides. And whats worse, people still play. That was the end for me, I will never go back.
DK was scurge not horde.Arthus was in no way affiliated with horde. but you're right alliance never had shamans and horde never had pallis. technicly neither side should have DKs MAYBE possibly undead race but that would be a stretch
thanks for the history lesson -- now are you ready for yours ? In 1995 Blizzard released a game called WARCRAFT II: Tides of Darkness. In that game the horde had Death Knights. Alliance had Paladins. As I said I started playing Blizzard games in 1996, not trying to flame you, but I am guessing you started playing blizz games much later. Oh and as for Arthas, he was years and years away from making his debut.
Lvl 3!!!!?? you mean you played for <1 hour and them made up your mind? :P doh?
lol !! ya, he has soo much credibility after level 3. he might have given us his opinion without even playing the game -- it would have held just as much meaning.
Too easy. Diverse classes. You see in wow, there are 8 generic, cookie cutter classes. The ultimate slap in the face is that Horde can play Paladins. I first started playing Warcraft in '96 and horde was evil. they had Death Knights -- alliance had paladins. But blizz had to sell out and take the easy way and make both factions have the same generic classes.
Also in WAR, the bad guys are evil -- unlike wow whereas the bad guys are "misunderstood."
Hope you enjoy your paladin v paladin fights. Cuz i sure didnt. Big reason why I quit -- CLASSES. Something WAR did right. We got more to choose from and they are fairly unique and different.
Again, this was too easy.
Pathetic. You got all your WAR lore "facts" wrong. Your argument fails right there in the beginning.
please explain what WAR lore facts are wrong. I cant wait for this...
Duh, everyone knows WoW came first and WAR copied everything WoW represents. Anyhow, despite how stupid that is, WoW fans don't know any better and whats worse is like someone already said. Blizzard sold out on its own lore and gave Paladins to both sides as well as Shamans. Basically taking the only diversity left in the game out. Can anyone say, worthless and lazy choice for a PvP lacking game?
the bland, cookie cutter classes to choose from in wow is in a word, pathetic. I couldnt believe when they gave paladins to the horde -- like I said, I started playing Warcraft in '96 -- paladins where one of the most powerful alliance units and death knights where all horde --
my how things have changed for blizzard. Just too easy for them to give paladins to both sides. And whats worse, people still play. That was the end for me, I will never go back.
DK was scurge not horde.Arthus was in no way affiliated with horde. but you're right alliance never had shamans and horde never had pallis. technicly neither side should have DKs MAYBE possibly undead race but that would be a stretch
thanks for the history lesson -- now are you ready for yours ? In 1995 Blizzard released a game called WARCRAFT II: Tides of Darkness. In that game the horde had Death Knights. Alliance had Paladins. As I said I started playing Blizzard games in 1996, not trying to flame you, but I am guessing you started playing blizz games much later. Oh and as for Arthas, he was years and years away from making his debut.
You know there is such a thing as game balance. Maybe it changes the games lore somewhat, but game mechanics trump everything in a game when it comes to balance.
Also some things you chide WoW for are the exact same thing in Warhammer. Oh a paladin vs paladin fight is about the same as a warrior priest vs DoK, any 2 tanks slugging it out or any 2 healers, etc etc. There are so many fights that are just nearly endless stalemates. On my warrior priest there are fights that I just walked away from my enemy right in the middle of combat, because I knew it was just going to take forever and neither of us would win or I would win through attrition of their resources.
Also are WoWs classes really cookie cutter? I think they are pretty diverse, just like the 10 mirror classes in Warhammer. I think both games did a fine job of making distinctions between all the class choices they offer. However I'm not sold that Mythic did it right as you claim since there are plenty of classes that are just flat out a liability on the field and the dynamics between tank-dps-healer just don't work quite right at the moment, but the classes for the most part are fun.
I like the concept of mirror classes. They add diversity to the game and more choices. Normally that is a good thing, but in a game where you put to opposing player bases against each other balance is far more important than diversity. balancing 20 classes is much harder to do than it is for 10, let alone getting the playerbase see that is much harder. Then you have the fact that some classes are going to be more attractive than their mirror counterparts which adds to population imbalance. For example there is not one class on the order side that uses paired swords, axes, etc.
I like the diversity, but I am not sure it outweights the balance issues it will cause. Real or imagined.
1. Each side and each class is a seperate feel to it. Even if there are "mirrors" between order and destruction, they do fuction different and have different abilities.
2. Each "skill" you get has a different ability to it. In WOW, you had to "relearn" your skills to keep them effective. In WAR, your skills advance with you and become more potent as you level. SO when you do get a new skill (or tactic or moral ability) you are getting something with a new mechanic to it for your character.
3. Every Class has "Action Points" which is used as a universal balencing factor. All skills you activate use "Action Points" Then Each class has an additional mechanism to it, wether the classic "Rouge" 5 strikes then finisher, to the new (what I refer to) Yen/Yang mechanism, where you can use combat spells to build up a buff for healing as well as the reverse. Each pairing (10 total) has a different mechanism.
4. Each race has it's own story path you can follow, each with a different story (6 total) The only "universal" area for all races is the final city.
5. Scenerios (that's what WAR calls BGs) is different for each Tier as you go up. Tier 1 and 2 have 3 (one for each racial pairing) Tier 3 and 4 has 6 (2 per) for a total of 18. Some are better than others, but all the people you play against is from your server. WAR does not do them cross server.
6. The focus of the overall game is RvR instead of PvE with end game raid content. WAR does it's best to teach you to work as group from the beginning and that your class is a part of a whole, instead of you having to stand on your own. Combat is set up to be group vs group, where WOW is still trying to balence solo vs solo.
7. Additional mechanisms for WAR is Mastery (though similar to talent trees in WOW) Renown, Tactics and Morale. Mastery, not only advances to new skills, but also gives a buff to all skills assosiated with that "tree" Tactics are passive enhancers that you can have (3 types are standard of Renown, Tome and the basic one which escapes me for the moment) Moral is a pool that builds the longer you are in combat. The longer you fight and survive, the more powerful the ability you can trigger.
That's it for now, work calls! Hope this helps a little
Too easy. Diverse classes. You see in wow, there are 8 generic, cookie cutter classes. The ultimate slap in the face is that Horde can play Paladins. I first started playing Warcraft in '96 and horde was evil. they had Death Knights -- alliance had paladins. But blizz had to sell out and take the easy way and make both factions have the same generic classes.
Also in WAR, the bad guys are evil -- unlike wow whereas the bad guys are "misunderstood."
Hope you enjoy your paladin v paladin fights. Cuz i sure didnt. Big reason why I quit -- CLASSES. Something WAR did right. We got more to choose from and they are fairly unique and different.
Again, this was too easy.
Pathetic. You got all your WAR lore "facts" wrong. Your argument fails right there in the beginning.
please explain what WAR lore facts are wrong. I cant wait for this...
Duh, everyone knows WoW came first and WAR copied everything WoW represents. Anyhow, despite how stupid that is, WoW fans don't know any better and whats worse is like someone already said. Blizzard sold out on its own lore and gave Paladins to both sides as well as Shamans. Basically taking the only diversity left in the game out. Can anyone say, worthless and lazy choice for a PvP lacking game?
the bland, cookie cutter classes to choose from in wow is in a word, pathetic. I couldnt believe when they gave paladins to the horde -- like I said, I started playing Warcraft in '96 -- paladins where one of the most powerful alliance units and death knights where all horde --
my how things have changed for blizzard. Just too easy for them to give paladins to both sides. And whats worse, people still play. That was the end for me, I will never go back.
DK was scurge not horde.Arthus was in no way affiliated with horde. but you're right alliance never had shamans and horde never had pallis. technicly neither side should have DKs MAYBE possibly undead race but that would be a stretch
thanks for the history lesson -- now are you ready for yours ? In 1995 Blizzard released a game called WARCRAFT II: Tides of Darkness. In that game the horde had Death Knights. Alliance had Paladins. As I said I started playing Blizzard games in 1996, not trying to flame you, but I am guessing you started playing blizz games much later. Oh and as for Arthas, he was years and years away from making his debut.
You know there is such a thing as game balance. Maybe it changes the games lore somewhat, but game mechanics trump everything in a game when it comes to balance.
Also some things you chide WoW for are the exact same thing in Warhammer. Oh a paladin vs paladin fight is about the same as a warrior priest vs DoK, any 2 tanks slugging it out or any 2 healers, etc etc. There are so many fights that are just nearly endless stalemates. On my warrior priest there are fights that I just walked away from my enemy right in the middle of combat, because I knew it was just going to take forever and neither of us would win or I would win through attrition of their resources.
Also are WoWs classes really cookie cutter? I think they are pretty diverse, just like the 10 mirror classes in Warhammer. I think both games did a fine job of making distinctions between all the class choices they offer. However I'm not sold that Mythic did it right as you claim since there are plenty of classes that are just flat out a liability on the field and the dynamics between tank-dps-healer just don't work quite right at the moment, but the classes for the most part are fun.
I like the concept of mirror classes. They add diversity to the game and more choices. Normally that is a good thing, but in a game where you put to opposing player bases against each other balance is far more important than diversity. balancing 20 classes is much harder to do than it is for 10, let alone getting the playerbase see that is much harder. Then you have the fact that some classes are going to be more attractive than their mirror counterparts which adds to population imbalance. For example there is not one class on the order side that uses paired swords, axes, etc.
I like the diversity, but I am not sure it outweights the balance issues it will cause. Real or imagined.
I know about game balance and apparently so does Blizzard. If you want to know how well, try playing Starcraft or any of the Warcraft RTS games. They balance dseveral races and did it quite well. The point is, it can be done and using the excuse of balancing is weak, since it is painfully obvious Blizz took the quick and easy way out. You know the easiest way to balance Alliance Paladin ? Death Knight to Horde. Its that simple and it is what blizzard themselves used in their own Warcraft II title. You dont balance a Paladin on Alliance with a Paladin on Horde. LAME. So please with the excuses, WAR balanced a diverse group of classes (and is adding more in 2 months), EQ 2 did as well and plenty of other games balance different races and classes quite nicely.
At the end of the day there is no difference between Horde or Alliance in wow. They both can play the exact same darn classes. WEAK, WEAK, WEAK. And ultimately it caused me to quit.
You seem to forget that there is much more to balance than PvP concerns in WoW. There is also PvE encounters and having equal compliments on both sides makes for balanced encounters.
I'm sorry you seem emotionally attached to the whole paladin/shaman thing, but I have zero problem with it, because I understand that mechanics are more important than lore. Death knights are a hero class, but I they should not be heads and shoulders better than any other class should they? Mechanics > lore.
It is much harder to balance a game that gives different resources to each team and saying this game did it right is a bit of a stretch at the moment. Just look at the mess DPS classes are in or how drastic the melee game changes from T1-T3. Are shadow warriors and engineers really balanced compared to other classes? When mirror classes have different abilities it is much harder to balance them out and there is no guarantee that the game will get there.
Despite all that I really enjoy the PvP so far in T1/T2. Don't get me wrong, because there are a lot of frustrating issues, but it still is fun. Not that I expected balanced classes anywhere even remotely close to a games launch, but the fact is that it is much harder to balance 10 different classes on each side than it is to balance 10 all together.
Giving a Death Knight to the Horde is not balancing - maybe it is when it comes to lore - but at least not in the game mechanic terms. Still, in your scenario: Horde w/ DK + Shaman makes Alliance short of 1 class to counter.
However - I am very interested in how bringing the DK to the Horde will balance things out ? What are you going to do with the Alliance players crying for not getting the Death Knight ? Tell them to QQ MOAR ? "If it works in the Warcraft II, then it will work in WoW !". Where's the logic in there ? The two game types/genre are not even the same !
I can understand if you are pissed off at Blizzard for sacrificing Lore for Balance - cause I was. But as time went on - I can understand where they're coming from.
Your examples of balancing are based around RTS games: Starcraft and Warcraft. Both are either single player or skirmish. They're much easier to balance - no talent trees, not that many spells, no boss encounters, etc.
However, WoW is not an RTS game. WoW involves a lot of players, balancing is not an easy task. Take for example: * the Chromagus encounter - you'd agree that Alliance had it easier by having a Paladin. * the Razorgore encounter - the Horde can use the Earthbinding Totem, and the Alliance can 'cheat' using the Paladin. * what about Morogrim encounter ? What if the Horde doesn't have access to Paladin tank ? Yes, maybe they can - but how are you going to respond to Horde players complaining: "but the Alliance had it easier with Pally !!!" * there are many encounters where having Blessing of Salvation is a huge advantage. This, with PvE (raid) mindset makes it hard to design an encounter that, say: threat sensitive. The Alliance will always have an upper hand over the Horde for having the Paladin. * with the current state of Holy, Ret and Protection Paladin - I can't imagine Horde players can play without complaining about game balance: Holy is the #1 single-target healing class, Ret blows things up - both in PvP and PvE and Protection is not only a viable tank - but in some cases is a preferable tank. * what about horde players in PvP servers who can't create an Alliance alt but wanting to play a Paladin ? and the other way around - alliance players wanting to play the Shaman ? you can't just slap them and say: "well, you should've decided which faction you want to stick with from the first place."
Saying that there is no difference between Horde and Alliance doesn't make sense - at least to me. As an Alliance player, I envy my Horde counterparts for having been able to participate in bringing Thrall back to his hometown. And what do we get ? We get to rescue Corky..... again !!!!!
Don't get me wrong though: I'm not a fanboi to WoW nor a WAR-hater. I'm very happy with WAR being around: it brings a competition and this is good for encouraging Developers on both ends to improve.
But hey, nothing's gonna stop you from getting all defensive and say: "immitating is NOT improving." In my case as a WoW player: "no, it -is- improving the game." I love achivements in other games I play - and now it's even in WoW ! How is that not improving the game for me ?
To all WAR-fanboi out there who accuse Blizzard of copying Mythic's ideas, here's a chill pill: "immitation is the purest form of flattery". Is Mythic 100% free from copying ideas from Blizzard ? Well let me quote something from someone at wowinsider:
Oh, please. Warhammer borrowed from WoW, WoW borrowed from Warhammer. Can't we just agree that MMOs are a giant orgy where everyone goes home pregnant with some kind of bastard child? So he got Blizzard pregnant, who cares, he's got five of their children already.
Sorry for the wall of text - and thanks to those who spend their time reading it
Lvl 3!!!!?? you mean you played for <1 hour and them made up your mind? :P doh?
lol !! ya, he has soo much credibility after level 3. he might have given us his opinion without even playing the game -- it would have held just as much meaning.
Why does it take people hours and days to know if they like a game?? I know if ill like a game the first 20 minutes in. Not everyone is slow, some people can tell in an hour if they will like the game or not.
Lvl 3!!!!?? you mean you played for <1 hour and them made up your mind? :P doh?
lol !! ya, he has soo much credibility after level 3. he might have given us his opinion without even playing the game -- it would have held just as much meaning.
Why does it take people hours and days to know if they like a game?? I know if ill like a game the first 20 minutes in. Not everyone is slow, some people can tell in an hour if they will like the game or not.
Your whole argument is wrong
Yes, you are the typical average joe. Congratulations Joe!
Lvl 3!!!!?? you mean you played for <1 hour and them made up your mind? :P doh?
lol !! ya, he has soo much credibility after level 3. he might have given us his opinion without even playing the game -- it would have held just as much meaning.
Why does it take people hours and days to know if they like a game?? I know if ill like a game the first 20 minutes in. Not everyone is slow, some people can tell in an hour if they will like the game or not.
Your whole argument is wrong
Yes, you are the typical average joe. Congratulations Joe!
Comments
And you know what ? People in WOW actually pvped for fun without any rewards, before a ranking system etc. came out !
Orly? I played wow for 4 years, and I can tell you 90% of all pvp activity on a pvp server in WoW was done out of kill griefing. Thats right...and anyone saying otherwise is a liar. You had level 70's going to Tarren Mill and South Shore camping 20-35's and killing the npc quest givers and guards.
<removed my reply>
Forget about it, these forums are so full of wow hatred for whatever reason....
He is right though, even if a little misinformed. Player ganking on pvp servers where rampant in those zones. Decked out 60's came and ganked left and right. There was a reason those zones where hated, and avoided like the plague back then. STV where particulary bad, and still is on pvp servers. Only time you could level in relatively safety was in offpeak hours, allthough even then you faced the occasional gank and corpse-camping.
Seems like everytime someone get the chance to go back and kill lowbies in some mmo, they will do it. Makes them feel good about themselfes or something to grief the lowbie. That's human nature for you. Kick the person lying down, cause he can't hit you back
I see this on the pvp servers in WAR aswell, so it's not something unique to WoW. They are bleeding cowards though, even though it's only games. When you're afraid to get hit too hard on your virtual character, then you really need to grow some balls.
Concerning the wow hatred, yeah couldn't agree more. It's borderline insanity the way the haters go about hating WoW around here. They are as sad the the NGE-haters really. NGE been out for what, some 3 years now. Time to let it go guys. I pity the boy/girlfriend that have left/will leave you eventually if you obsess as much about them as you do the game.
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Grammar nazi's. This one is for you.
But please tell me how that, in any way shape or form, relates to the early TM <> South Shore or CrossRoad raids people did for fun and without any incentive ?
And when you play on a pvp server you can always expect to be ganked by idiots, no matter what game you play... But that doesn't have anything to do with this topic.
Nothing. I did say he was misinformed, yes. People pvp for fun in WoW still. There was the occasional pvp-raid on quest hubs and major cities when I still played, and I'm sure it's still going on. Got a little unsteady when mass amount of people showed up on both sides, but other than that, it was fun, and the only reward to be had, was the pvp itself.
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Grammar nazi's. This one is for you.
Nothing. I did say he was misinformed, yes. People pvp for fun in WoW still. There was the occasional pvp-raid on quest hubs and major cities when I still played, and I'm sure it's still going on.
Glad you agree, thought I was overlooking something obvious
.
Nothing. I did say he was misinformed, yes. People pvp for fun in WoW still. There was the occasional pvp-raid on quest hubs and major cities when I still played, and I'm sure it's still going on. Got a little unsteady when mass amount of people showed up on both sides, but other than that, it was fun, and the only reward to be had, was the pvp itself.
True but its no common. (once every few weeks is not common)
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
When this occurred regularly early in the game's existence, there wasn't THAT much else to do at lvl cap. MC, Stratholme and Scholomance runs ad nauseam and that was it. So people started organizing their own fun
.
Nothing. I did say he was misinformed, yes. People pvp for fun in WoW still. There was the occasional pvp-raid on quest hubs and major cities when I still played, and I'm sure it's still going on. Got a little unsteady when mass amount of people showed up on both sides, but other than that, it was fun, and the only reward to be had, was the pvp itself.
True but its no common. (once every few weeks is not common)
Go play on a pvp server and come say that again. Who cares about all the pve'ers, which I suspect is most of WoW's playerbase actually. They ain't there to pvp anyway.
---
Grammar nazi's. This one is for you.
I don't hate WoW but I prefer PvP/open RvR and WAR lore, so it has more appealing for me than WoW has had ever... or will have, whatever they do to the game.
I play in a casual way, for the moment, i like exploring and make my achievements, right added to my precious Tome Of Knowledge. Don´t hurry, enjoy the game and its impressive lore - and though it has not the Crysis graphics nor will have them - i like to walk and doing the PQ's, some grind a la Lineage2 and get a better knowledge of Warhammer World.
Well, barely have time to play, but I do love this game.
WoW has its own charm, nevertheless WAR will open a new frame of gaming: open RvR will start when people it's done with the game and the classes. Changing the world and the environment by achievements will have impact when it's discovered and practised fluently and daily by players.
WoW will have the lich king to grind it up. Hmm, how funny.
It is a question of fangs.
Heh, my brother's 19 twink hunter cost him close to 2000 gold for the necessary gear, plus a lot of off-time gear-drop research and being run through crucial quests by his friends. That's too much grinding for me, thanks!
Just because your brother considers 2000 gold worth of gear as "essential" that doesn't make twinking an extensive grind. You know the old saying about a fool and his money.
I'll be sure to let my brother know, along with all of those foolish enough to follow the twink guide he used - like most everyone in his guild. Perhaps your own twink is quite as 'twinkie' as you think ;P
So if your friend jumped off a bridge.....
Sorry, twinking a level 19 character is hardly an excessive grind. If your brother has 2000 gold to waste on a twink, more power to him. However don't try to make the whole game out as something it is not based on a twink guide some people who need someone else to tell them how to play.
This has already gone beyond absurd.
May i ask, how long have you been playing wow?
You made me laugh...
Heh, my brother's 19 twink hunter cost him close to 2000 gold for the necessary gear, plus a lot of off-time gear-drop research and being run through crucial quests by his friends. That's too much grinding for me, thanks!
Just because your brother considers 2000 gold worth of gear as "essential" that doesn't make twinking an extensive grind. You know the old saying about a fool and his money.
I'll be sure to let my brother know, along with all of those foolish enough to follow the twink guide he used - like most everyone in his guild. Perhaps your own twink is quite as 'twinkie' as you think ;P
This has already gone beyond absurd.
On this we agree.
Excellent element by element comparison of the two games by Gamespy.
http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/world-of-warcraft-wrath-of-the-lich-king/918307p1.html
WoW is a Rolls Royce, Warhammer Online is a Ferrari. Both are awesome cars but no one expects a Rolls to win a race with a Ferrari and no one expects a Ferrari to be as luxurious as a Rolls (I still wouldn't mind owning either one, though).
Basically they summarize that if you like raiding, play WoW. If you like PvP, play WAR.
People need to deal with the fact that the MMORPG market is expanding so people can now pick which game they want to play. Neither is 'better' anymore than cake or pie are better or worse (even though pie is clearly superior)
See WAR has the A and the R while WOW has the O and the W.
Some people prefer the A and the R , while others like the O and W.
Doesn't matter to me either way, since they both start with W this means they fail.
./ submits post to quickly make a rant post on Why mmo developers are too afraid to use other letters.
Playing: Nothing
Looking forward to: Nothing
Too easy. Diverse classes. You see in wow, there are 8 generic, cookie cutter classes. The ultimate slap in the face is that Horde can play Paladins. I first started playing Warcraft in '96 and horde was evil. they had Death Knights -- alliance had paladins. But blizz had to sell out and take the easy way and make both factions have the same generic classes.
Also in WAR, the bad guys are evil -- unlike wow whereas the bad guys are "misunderstood."
Hope you enjoy your paladin v paladin fights. Cuz i sure didnt. Big reason why I quit -- CLASSES. Something WAR did right. We got more to choose from and they are fairly unique and different.
Again, this was too easy.
Pathetic. You got all your WAR lore "facts" wrong. Your argument fails right there in the beginning.
please explain what WAR lore facts are wrong. I cant wait for this...
Duh, everyone knows WoW came first and WAR copied everything WoW represents. Anyhow, despite how stupid that is, WoW fans don't know any better and whats worse is like someone already said. Blizzard sold out on its own lore and gave Paladins to both sides as well as Shamans. Basically taking the only diversity left in the game out. Can anyone say, worthless and lazy choice for a PvP lacking game?
the bland, cookie cutter classes to choose from in wow is in a word, pathetic. I couldnt believe when they gave paladins to the horde -- like I said, I started playing Warcraft in '96 -- paladins where one of the most powerful alliance units and death knights where all horde --
my how things have changed for blizzard. Just too easy for them to give paladins to both sides. And whats worse, people still play. That was the end for me, I will never go back.
DK was scurge not horde.Arthus was in no way affiliated with horde. but you're right alliance never had shamans and horde never had pallis. technicly neither side should have DKs MAYBE possibly undead race but that would be a stretch
thanks for the history lesson -- now are you ready for yours ? In 1995 Blizzard released a game called WARCRAFT II: Tides of Darkness. In that game the horde had Death Knights. Alliance had Paladins. As I said I started playing Blizzard games in 1996, not trying to flame you, but I am guessing you started playing blizz games much later. Oh and as for Arthas, he was years and years away from making his debut.
Lvl 3!!!!?? you mean you played for <1 hour and them made up your mind? :P doh?
lol !! ya, he has soo much credibility after level 3. he might have given us his opinion without even playing the game -- it would have held just as much meaning.
Too easy. Diverse classes. You see in wow, there are 8 generic, cookie cutter classes. The ultimate slap in the face is that Horde can play Paladins. I first started playing Warcraft in '96 and horde was evil. they had Death Knights -- alliance had paladins. But blizz had to sell out and take the easy way and make both factions have the same generic classes.
Also in WAR, the bad guys are evil -- unlike wow whereas the bad guys are "misunderstood."
Hope you enjoy your paladin v paladin fights. Cuz i sure didnt. Big reason why I quit -- CLASSES. Something WAR did right. We got more to choose from and they are fairly unique and different.
Again, this was too easy.
Pathetic. You got all your WAR lore "facts" wrong. Your argument fails right there in the beginning.
please explain what WAR lore facts are wrong. I cant wait for this...
Duh, everyone knows WoW came first and WAR copied everything WoW represents. Anyhow, despite how stupid that is, WoW fans don't know any better and whats worse is like someone already said. Blizzard sold out on its own lore and gave Paladins to both sides as well as Shamans. Basically taking the only diversity left in the game out. Can anyone say, worthless and lazy choice for a PvP lacking game?
the bland, cookie cutter classes to choose from in wow is in a word, pathetic. I couldnt believe when they gave paladins to the horde -- like I said, I started playing Warcraft in '96 -- paladins where one of the most powerful alliance units and death knights where all horde --
my how things have changed for blizzard. Just too easy for them to give paladins to both sides. And whats worse, people still play. That was the end for me, I will never go back.
DK was scurge not horde.Arthus was in no way affiliated with horde. but you're right alliance never had shamans and horde never had pallis. technicly neither side should have DKs MAYBE possibly undead race but that would be a stretch
thanks for the history lesson -- now are you ready for yours ? In 1995 Blizzard released a game called WARCRAFT II: Tides of Darkness. In that game the horde had Death Knights. Alliance had Paladins. As I said I started playing Blizzard games in 1996, not trying to flame you, but I am guessing you started playing blizz games much later. Oh and as for Arthas, he was years and years away from making his debut.
You know there is such a thing as game balance. Maybe it changes the games lore somewhat, but game mechanics trump everything in a game when it comes to balance.
Also some things you chide WoW for are the exact same thing in Warhammer. Oh a paladin vs paladin fight is about the same as a warrior priest vs DoK, any 2 tanks slugging it out or any 2 healers, etc etc. There are so many fights that are just nearly endless stalemates. On my warrior priest there are fights that I just walked away from my enemy right in the middle of combat, because I knew it was just going to take forever and neither of us would win or I would win through attrition of their resources.
Also are WoWs classes really cookie cutter? I think they are pretty diverse, just like the 10 mirror classes in Warhammer. I think both games did a fine job of making distinctions between all the class choices they offer. However I'm not sold that Mythic did it right as you claim since there are plenty of classes that are just flat out a liability on the field and the dynamics between tank-dps-healer just don't work quite right at the moment, but the classes for the most part are fun.
I like the concept of mirror classes. They add diversity to the game and more choices. Normally that is a good thing, but in a game where you put to opposing player bases against each other balance is far more important than diversity. balancing 20 classes is much harder to do than it is for 10, let alone getting the playerbase see that is much harder. Then you have the fact that some classes are going to be more attractive than their mirror counterparts which adds to population imbalance. For example there is not one class on the order side that uses paired swords, axes, etc.
I like the diversity, but I am not sure it outweights the balance issues it will cause. Real or imagined.
Well, here is my opinion on the subject.
1. Each side and each class is a seperate feel to it. Even if there are "mirrors" between order and destruction, they do fuction different and have different abilities.
2. Each "skill" you get has a different ability to it. In WOW, you had to "relearn" your skills to keep them effective. In WAR, your skills advance with you and become more potent as you level. SO when you do get a new skill (or tactic or moral ability) you are getting something with a new mechanic to it for your character.
3. Every Class has "Action Points" which is used as a universal balencing factor. All skills you activate use "Action Points" Then Each class has an additional mechanism to it, wether the classic "Rouge" 5 strikes then finisher, to the new (what I refer to) Yen/Yang mechanism, where you can use combat spells to build up a buff for healing as well as the reverse. Each pairing (10 total) has a different mechanism.
4. Each race has it's own story path you can follow, each with a different story (6 total) The only "universal" area for all races is the final city.
5. Scenerios (that's what WAR calls BGs) is different for each Tier as you go up. Tier 1 and 2 have 3 (one for each racial pairing) Tier 3 and 4 has 6 (2 per) for a total of 18. Some are better than others, but all the people you play against is from your server. WAR does not do them cross server.
6. The focus of the overall game is RvR instead of PvE with end game raid content. WAR does it's best to teach you to work as group from the beginning and that your class is a part of a whole, instead of you having to stand on your own. Combat is set up to be group vs group, where WOW is still trying to balence solo vs solo.
7. Additional mechanisms for WAR is Mastery (though similar to talent trees in WOW) Renown, Tactics and Morale. Mastery, not only advances to new skills, but also gives a buff to all skills assosiated with that "tree" Tactics are passive enhancers that you can have (3 types are standard of Renown, Tome and the basic one which escapes me for the moment) Moral is a pool that builds the longer you are in combat. The longer you fight and survive, the more powerful the ability you can trigger.
That's it for now, work calls! Hope this helps a little
Too easy. Diverse classes. You see in wow, there are 8 generic, cookie cutter classes. The ultimate slap in the face is that Horde can play Paladins. I first started playing Warcraft in '96 and horde was evil. they had Death Knights -- alliance had paladins. But blizz had to sell out and take the easy way and make both factions have the same generic classes.
Also in WAR, the bad guys are evil -- unlike wow whereas the bad guys are "misunderstood."
Hope you enjoy your paladin v paladin fights. Cuz i sure didnt. Big reason why I quit -- CLASSES. Something WAR did right. We got more to choose from and they are fairly unique and different.
Again, this was too easy.
Pathetic. You got all your WAR lore "facts" wrong. Your argument fails right there in the beginning.
please explain what WAR lore facts are wrong. I cant wait for this...
Duh, everyone knows WoW came first and WAR copied everything WoW represents. Anyhow, despite how stupid that is, WoW fans don't know any better and whats worse is like someone already said. Blizzard sold out on its own lore and gave Paladins to both sides as well as Shamans. Basically taking the only diversity left in the game out. Can anyone say, worthless and lazy choice for a PvP lacking game?
the bland, cookie cutter classes to choose from in wow is in a word, pathetic. I couldnt believe when they gave paladins to the horde -- like I said, I started playing Warcraft in '96 -- paladins where one of the most powerful alliance units and death knights where all horde --
my how things have changed for blizzard. Just too easy for them to give paladins to both sides. And whats worse, people still play. That was the end for me, I will never go back.
DK was scurge not horde.Arthus was in no way affiliated with horde. but you're right alliance never had shamans and horde never had pallis. technicly neither side should have DKs MAYBE possibly undead race but that would be a stretch
thanks for the history lesson -- now are you ready for yours ? In 1995 Blizzard released a game called WARCRAFT II: Tides of Darkness. In that game the horde had Death Knights. Alliance had Paladins. As I said I started playing Blizzard games in 1996, not trying to flame you, but I am guessing you started playing blizz games much later. Oh and as for Arthas, he was years and years away from making his debut.
You know there is such a thing as game balance. Maybe it changes the games lore somewhat, but game mechanics trump everything in a game when it comes to balance.
Also some things you chide WoW for are the exact same thing in Warhammer. Oh a paladin vs paladin fight is about the same as a warrior priest vs DoK, any 2 tanks slugging it out or any 2 healers, etc etc. There are so many fights that are just nearly endless stalemates. On my warrior priest there are fights that I just walked away from my enemy right in the middle of combat, because I knew it was just going to take forever and neither of us would win or I would win through attrition of their resources.
Also are WoWs classes really cookie cutter? I think they are pretty diverse, just like the 10 mirror classes in Warhammer. I think both games did a fine job of making distinctions between all the class choices they offer. However I'm not sold that Mythic did it right as you claim since there are plenty of classes that are just flat out a liability on the field and the dynamics between tank-dps-healer just don't work quite right at the moment, but the classes for the most part are fun.
I like the concept of mirror classes. They add diversity to the game and more choices. Normally that is a good thing, but in a game where you put to opposing player bases against each other balance is far more important than diversity. balancing 20 classes is much harder to do than it is for 10, let alone getting the playerbase see that is much harder. Then you have the fact that some classes are going to be more attractive than their mirror counterparts which adds to population imbalance. For example there is not one class on the order side that uses paired swords, axes, etc.
I like the diversity, but I am not sure it outweights the balance issues it will cause. Real or imagined.
I know about game balance and apparently so does Blizzard. If you want to know how well, try playing Starcraft or any of the Warcraft RTS games. They balance dseveral races and did it quite well. The point is, it can be done and using the excuse of balancing is weak, since it is painfully obvious Blizz took the quick and easy way out. You know the easiest way to balance Alliance Paladin ? Death Knight to Horde. Its that simple and it is what blizzard themselves used in their own Warcraft II title. You dont balance a Paladin on Alliance with a Paladin on Horde. LAME. So please with the excuses, WAR balanced a diverse group of classes (and is adding more in 2 months), EQ 2 did as well and plenty of other games balance different races and classes quite nicely.
At the end of the day there is no difference between Horde or Alliance in wow. They both can play the exact same darn classes. WEAK, WEAK, WEAK. And ultimately it caused me to quit.
Ok, I see your opinion and that is fine.
You seem to forget that there is much more to balance than PvP concerns in WoW. There is also PvE encounters and having equal compliments on both sides makes for balanced encounters.
I'm sorry you seem emotionally attached to the whole paladin/shaman thing, but I have zero problem with it, because I understand that mechanics are more important than lore. Death knights are a hero class, but I they should not be heads and shoulders better than any other class should they? Mechanics > lore.
It is much harder to balance a game that gives different resources to each team and saying this game did it right is a bit of a stretch at the moment. Just look at the mess DPS classes are in or how drastic the melee game changes from T1-T3. Are shadow warriors and engineers really balanced compared to other classes? When mirror classes have different abilities it is much harder to balance them out and there is no guarantee that the game will get there.
Despite all that I really enjoy the PvP so far in T1/T2. Don't get me wrong, because there are a lot of frustrating issues, but it still is fun. Not that I expected balanced classes anywhere even remotely close to a games launch, but the fact is that it is much harder to balance 10 different classes on each side than it is to balance 10 all together.
Giving a Death Knight to the Horde is not balancing - maybe it is when it comes to lore - but at least not in the game mechanic terms. Still, in your scenario: Horde w/ DK + Shaman makes Alliance short of 1 class to counter.
However - I am very interested in how bringing the DK to the Horde will balance things out ?
What are you going to do with the Alliance players crying for not getting the Death Knight ? Tell them to QQ MOAR ?
"If it works in the Warcraft II, then it will work in WoW !". Where's the logic in there ? The two game types/genre are not even the same !
I can understand if you are pissed off at Blizzard for sacrificing Lore for Balance - cause I was.
But as time went on - I can understand where they're coming from.
Your examples of balancing are based around RTS games: Starcraft and Warcraft.
Both are either single player or skirmish. They're much easier to balance - no talent trees, not that many spells, no boss encounters, etc.
However, WoW is not an RTS game.
WoW involves a lot of players, balancing is not an easy task.
Take for example:
* the Chromagus encounter - you'd agree that Alliance had it easier by having a Paladin.
* the Razorgore encounter - the Horde can use the Earthbinding Totem, and the Alliance can 'cheat' using the Paladin.
* what about Morogrim encounter ? What if the Horde doesn't have access to Paladin tank ? Yes, maybe they can - but how are you going to respond to Horde players complaining: "but the Alliance had it easier with Pally !!!"
* there are many encounters where having Blessing of Salvation is a huge advantage. This, with PvE (raid) mindset makes it hard to design an encounter that, say: threat sensitive. The Alliance will always have an upper hand over the Horde for having the Paladin.
* with the current state of Holy, Ret and Protection Paladin - I can't imagine Horde players can play without complaining about game balance: Holy is the #1 single-target healing class, Ret blows things up - both in PvP and PvE and Protection is not only a viable tank - but in some cases is a preferable tank.
* what about horde players in PvP servers who can't create an Alliance alt but wanting to play a Paladin ? and the other way around - alliance players wanting to play the Shaman ? you can't just slap them and say: "well, you should've decided which faction you want to stick with from the first place."
Saying that there is no difference between Horde and Alliance doesn't make sense - at least to me. As an Alliance player, I envy my Horde counterparts for having been able to participate in bringing Thrall back to his hometown. And what do we get ? We get to rescue Corky..... again !!!!!
Don't get me wrong though: I'm not a fanboi to WoW nor a WAR-hater. I'm very happy with WAR being around: it brings a competition and this is good for encouraging Developers on both ends to improve.
But hey, nothing's gonna stop you from getting all defensive and say: "immitating is NOT improving."
In my case as a WoW player: "no, it -is- improving the game." I love achivements in other games I play - and now it's even in WoW ! How is that not improving the game for me ?
To all WAR-fanboi out there who accuse Blizzard of copying Mythic's ideas, here's a chill pill: "immitation is the purest form of flattery".
Is Mythic 100% free from copying ideas from Blizzard ? Well let me quote something from someone at wowinsider:
Sorry for the wall of text - and thanks to those who spend their time reading it
lol !! ya, he has soo much credibility after level 3. he might have given us his opinion without even playing the game -- it would have held just as much meaning.
Why does it take people hours and days to know if they like a game?? I know if ill like a game the first 20 minutes in. Not everyone is slow, some people can tell in an hour if they will like the game or not.
Your whole argument is wrong
lol !! ya, he has soo much credibility after level 3. he might have given us his opinion without even playing the game -- it would have held just as much meaning.
Why does it take people hours and days to know if they like a game?? I know if ill like a game the first 20 minutes in. Not everyone is slow, some people can tell in an hour if they will like the game or not.
Your whole argument is wrong
Yes, you are the typical average joe. Congratulations Joe!
WAR has/had the potential to really start the RvR franchise again, but right now its not working out
The potential is there, mythic just needs to fix it up and get players active in it
If they don't pull that off, this game will be far to much like WoW for my taste with the battlegrounds being the focus of pvp/rvr.
lol !! ya, he has soo much credibility after level 3. he might have given us his opinion without even playing the game -- it would have held just as much meaning.
Why does it take people hours and days to know if they like a game?? I know if ill like a game the first 20 minutes in. Not everyone is slow, some people can tell in an hour if they will like the game or not.
Your whole argument is wrong
Yes, you are the typical average joe. Congratulations Joe!
Good job failing to make sense