Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
What Do You Want Us Gays To Do ?
This discussion has been closed.
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Comments
Actually, nurgles, that is exactly the sort of thing I'd like to see happen. I don't think the government should be in the marriage business. I think it'd be great if the government no longer gave out marriage licenses and if everyone that had one returned it.
Besides, I think you are misunderstanding my post: I *am* saying that different people define marriage differently. That is *exactly* the point I'm trying to make. It is NOT merely a legal definition, and BECAUSE it is not merely legal, but also, for many people, religious, that this has become such a rallying point for fundamentalists and the like.
You can't just say that marriage merely something granted by the state with a license and a judge's approval. Nor can you say marriage is merely some holy state you enter into when some religious authority figure pronounces it to be so. When you start looking at the opposition people have to homosexuals getting married, you need to look at *all* the definitions people have and see how they can be addressed. That was the point I was trying to make earlier.
The guy I was responding to earlier tried to imply I was referring only to legal marriage rather than marriage as a whole... all the ways people tend to think of when they think about marriage rather than just the legal part of it.
BTW, if the "civil union" idea ever took hold, all current marriage licenses would likely be grandfathered. Any changes would be from that point on out.
I don't get where people think marriage is religious or tied to any moral belief. Marriage is a word. It's a word that means Union. It doesn't mean Holy Union or Civil Union or Moral Union. It means that 2 things are united. Just because some people want to tie marriage to a belief that does not make it so.
Marriage is very much a religious term. In the Christian bible, the word "wife" is referenced as early as Eve's creation. So some Christians believe marriage to be a design of God.
The words marriage, wife and husband appear hundreds of more times in both Old and New Testaments, and the scriptures are very specific about his and her, father and mother, and etc.
That said, I don't feel the word can ever be wrestled away from Christianity in a way that says a gay marriage is the same as a christian marriage. It's a religious institution made law and amended into state constitutions.
I believe gay activism should be centered more around expanding the rights of civil unions moreso than fighting the repression of marriage laws. I feel like in-roads could really be made in normalizing the rights and responsibilities of civil unions across our states and even get 'em recognized by the federal government.
Do I think having to settle for civil unions is fair? I don't, I believe it's 100% against equality and what this country stands for by forcing a class of people to have to spend decades growing a parallel line of law just to have the same rights.
In a perfect world, Christians would cede the word for the sake of equal rights.
Move the fight to nebraska. Their new affirmative action law MIGHT be a doorway to bring in gay rights and discriminations at least as opposed to matters of LAW ( things like inheretance , ownership , taxes etc... )
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
Getting your ears pierced doesn't effect the rest of your life.
Well, unless you get it done in Tiajuana.
And because getting an abortion effects the rest of your life, your parents shouldn't know anything about it...
right...okay, I see your logic there.
Honestly, do you people see how stupid this is?
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Wrong to be gay? I was born this way. So, I guess you have a grudge to take up with our creator.
--------------------------------------
Wrong to be gay? I was born this way. So, I guess you have a grudge to take up with our creator.
I was born with a predisposition to be mean to people who don't do things in an efficient way...It's a sin whether or not I was born with a predisposition toward it...being born with a predisposition to something does not absolve one from that particular sin.
You may argue that it is a separate issue because it is one that hinges on whether or not you will ever be allowed to love another person in a romantic way that is not sinful...well...I hate to break this to you, but it is entirely reasonable to think that a gay or straight person's lot in life is to be single until the day that they die...it is not our place to make amendments to scripture just because we don't want to face this reality. Is it fair? From a humanistic standpoint - no...but as our Bible says...human wisdom is foolishness before God.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Wrong to be gay? I was born this way. So, I guess you have a grudge to take up with our creator.
I was born with a predisposition to be mean to people who don't do things in an efficient way...It's a sin whether or not I was born with a predisposition toward it...being born with a predisposition to something does not absolve one from that particular sin.
You may argue that it is a separate issue because it is one that hinges on whether or not you will ever be allowed to love another person in a romantic way that is not sinful...well...I hate to break this to you, but it is entirely reasonable to think that a gay or straight person's lot in life is to be single until the day that they die...it is not our place to make amendments to scripture just because we don't want to face this reality. Is it fair? From a humanistic standpoint - no...but as our Bible says...human wisdom is foolishness before God.
I can't help but notice your great wealth of human wisdom !
Wrong to be gay? I was born this way. So, I guess you have a grudge to take up with our creator.
I was born with a predisposition to be mean to people who don't do things in an efficient way...It's a sin whether or not I was born with a predisposition toward it...being born with a predisposition to something does not absolve one from that particular sin.
You may argue that it is a separate issue because it is one that hinges on whether or not you will ever be allowed to love another person in a romantic way that is not sinful...well...I hate to break this to you, but it is entirely reasonable to think that a gay or straight person's lot in life is to be single until the day that they die...it is not our place to make amendments to scripture just because we don't want to face this reality. Is it fair? From a humanistic standpoint - no...but as our Bible says...human wisdom is foolishness before God.
Then I'm just a big dummy who doesn't like to be alone. I love my partner to the point of idiocy, and I'm foolish enough to think that God wants us together as well. I even consider the day we met a blessed day in my life. It turned all my disgust for life and myself completely around. I believe God was there that day and intervened in what could have been a destructive future for me. Now I have someone to share things with and it brings out more love in me than before.
--------------------------------------
Wrong to be gay? I was born this way. So, I guess you have a grudge to take up with our creator.
I was born with a predisposition to be mean to people who don't do things in an efficient way...It's a sin whether or not I was born with a predisposition toward it...being born with a predisposition to something does not absolve one from that particular sin.
You may argue that it is a separate issue because it is one that hinges on whether or not you will ever be allowed to love another person in a romantic way that is not sinful...well...I hate to break this to you, but it is entirely reasonable to think that a gay or straight person's lot in life is to be single until the day that they die...it is not our place to make amendments to scripture just because we don't want to face this reality. Is it fair? From a humanistic standpoint - no...but as our Bible says...human wisdom is foolishness before God.
Then I'm just a big dummy who doesn't like to be alone. I love my partner to the point of idiocy, and I'm foolish enough to think that God wants us together as well. I even consider the day we met a blessed day in my life. It turned all my disgust for life and myself completely around. I believe God was there that day and intervened in what could have been a destructive future for me. Now I have someone to share things with and it brings out more love in me than before.
Science will one day prove that being gay is not a choice.
Science has already killed the creator being.
Make a difference!
How honest to you want me to be?
Personally i could care less about your sex life.Im a libertarian and to that end i believe in personal freedom and responsibility.
I have known some gay people before that you would NEVER know were gay.Ive also known gay people that were so over the top you would not want to even talk to them.
Look i live in Atlanta,Ga and it just so happens that it is the gay center of the east coast.I think it is july 4th weekend or around that time that the Pride weekend occurs.
So when this weekend does happen it is almost a point that the parade goes by a set of churches that just happen to be letting out around lunch on Sunday.You can imagine how this is perceived.
I guess what im saying is i can understand sticking up for yourself .BUT if it was done in a more discreet way and a bit more conservative you might get a bit further down the road.
You want to be MORE accepted?Try acting more acceptable.You want to be my neighbor?Great as long as you maintain your yard and act respectable towards me and mine this is a start.
What i dont get is why must your sexuality be shown to me in public?These are things that should be private.
Please dont think for a second that im trying to pick a fight im attempting to have an intelligent dialog.
You don't sound like a Libertarian to me. See, we Libertarian's believe in picking up the fight for liberty and freedom and defending it. Liberty and freedom that not just extends to those who'm we agree with or who'm fit within a certain criteria we believe in personally, but liberty for all.
You actually sound bitter in your statements. I'm not sure if you meant to come across that way or not, but you did.
And you say that sexuality should be private, sure that sounds good, but in the real world who is capable of doing that? I go to work all the time and hear straight people talk about their wife and family at home. Should they keep their home life private too? Hell no, it's something they're proud of and should be.
Gay people are simply looking to build a family, a home, a respectable life that they can present with pride and dignity. You sound like you answered Upallnight's question by saying he should go hide.
Well my candidate in this election got a whole 1% of the vote in Georgia so there ya are.
Talking about your wife and family at work is completly different from walking out of church at 10:30 AM on a sunday and having to explain to a 5 year old what is going on.
Let me clarify:Live out in the open do what you want but understand that there are people who will NOT agree with this lifestyle.My next door neighbors are gay and i have them over for the weekend BBQ's and the like.
On the other hand your talking about lifestyles right?Where is the heterosexual parade?How about the mastrubator parade?
Im sorry but sex is a private matter between 2 consenting adults and not to be discussed openly.Call me a prude if you want but i just dont discuss what i do in the bedroom around the watercooler.
Your last Paragraph is exactly what im saying.The movement HAS to start doing exactly that to change viewpoints and move the agenda forward.It is not given to them nor anyone else.If its worth having its worth the sacrifice as well.
Again i dont care about sexual matters i judge on content of character alone.
What is your physical limit?
Then I'm just a big dummy who doesn't like to be alone. I love my partner to the point of idiocy, and I'm foolish enough to think that God wants us together as well. I even consider the day we met a blessed day in my life. It turned all my disgust for life and myself completely around. I believe God was there that day and intervened in what could have been a destructive future for me. Now I have someone to share things with and it brings out more love in me than before.
Very impressive.....Well Said!
I have posted on this before on one of your threads upallnight.
I personally believe being Gay is a sin but it is a sin just like lieing, talking back to your parents, or any other little minor sin. I believe God still loves everyone that accepts him into their heart.
Now I did vote for Amendment 2 and I will tell you why. You may or may not agree with me and that is your right.
In my eyes if "Gay Marriage" becomes a legal item then Churches can then be sued for Discrimination. Lawyers are for the most part the Scum of the earth and would use any laws they can to bring civil lawsuits against anyone that they can.
I strongly believe that a State sanctioned legal union (Civil Union) should give all of the same rights that a "Marriage" does. If that means the "Legal" certificate gets changed from a marriage certificate to a civil union certificate then that is great.
Personally I believe that the Gay Rights movement needs to take a long hard look inward to see where the problem is coming from. I am currently in the United States Navy. I was home on leave and took my Children to Disney World. (at the time I was stationed in Iceland, so I had no idea what weekend that just happened to be). Everywhere we turned there were grown men wearing tiaras, feather boas, giant obnoxious glasses, etc. They also were talking very loudly about how they were giving each other oral sex in the bathrooms. I am sorry but that hurts the gay rights movement. Obnoxious behaviour like that is ridiculous. Neither straight men or women act like that "queens" and biologically there is no reason for a Gay man to either.
This particular "Subculture" of the homosexual community is why you see a lot of the hate and oppression. There would be no problem with behavior like that at Mardi Gras, Guavaween, nightclubs, or any other appropriate place, but too often it is the result of the "Out and Proud" that turns public opinion against the homosexual community.
Now you might disagree with me. And some will try and compare it to a man and a woman holding hands, or talking about their significant other in public, or kissing. But it is not even closely comparable. I have no problem what so ever with homosexuals (I actually get flattered when they hit on me, since I am getting older (29) it is nice to still know that I am attractive
) and I have no problem with them having equal civil rights. I think they should get healthcare rights for a couple, they should be able to have civil unions, and they should be able to adopt children.
The one area where I don't think it is fair for them to openly serve is the Military. (as I said I am in the US Navy) and this has nothing to do with ability or hate. It actually has to do with jealousy. In a lot of areas we have to share showers and locker rooms. It just isn't fair for them to be able to see potentially attractive people naked. That just isn't fair.
Now if we made the Locker Rooms and Showers Co-ed (there are some hot Ensigns at my command 
) then I wouldn't have any problem at all. 
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
And straight men does not talk in the open, public places about their sexual endeavors? All the time, all the time. Boasting about their conqeusts and making sexual degrading remarks towards women.
And the last part of your post prooves my point, thank you. And for the record, I don't see how that's a problem - a rather vague argument to why they should not be allowed to openly serve in the military, I seriously doubt that's the reason why you think so.
I can feel how your forehead and palms sweating while making that reason up.
I CREATED MYSELF!
"<Claus|Dev> i r pk"
SW:TOR|War40K:DMO|GW2
Do You Want the Truth?
They want you in the closet.
In the dark.
Away from society.
They do not want you to have relationships.
They do not want you to teach in schools.
They do not want you to be "open" about your sexuality, which to them means getting married or no staying in the closet.
They want you to stfu, have no rights, and hopefully someday get "cured."
Gays are the last, and perhaps final, group we are allowed to discriminate against and abuse.
It is a shame. It is disgusting. It is unfortunate.
The whole concept of "civilzation" ending tells you how these people think; they think that because two people of the same sex love each other, they are under "threat."
I fear them twelve times more than they fear gay people.
Let's stop being afraid of each other.
Let's accept each other.
Let's just live as Americans.
IIRL you can think what ever you want but you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
I would like to call Shananagans here....
The OP asked a really simple question. "What do you want us to do?
We had some people state (including myself) that there are some portions of religion that are against being gay...statements like that aren't always a judgement, but rather observations (again, my own post as reference)
But then it degraded into arguments about it...
Look... The OP here is sincerely asking " What the hell do you want from me?"
I KNOW there isn't anyone here that has the right to judge this guy Christian or otherwise. Yes, many don't approve of it or agree with it...but it's not between us and him.... THAT part of it is between him and God as he stated. and it's HIS right to leave it at that.
I guess I felt like some of you jumped up and attacked a little harshly, and I got a Mr. T attitude about such things. :P
Now if i misread some of your intent in some of these posts, my bad. but i KNOW it's already challenging enough to live this lifestyle without a faith, now add to it a faith in God and you got very difficult and conflicting information being thrown at you on a daily basis.
To OP. You said it best when you said that you follow your heart. No person here can add to it any better...and NOBODY should be able to take that from you either. don't let them.
ok so i'm a bit emotional about this particular topic....don't know why honestly i've never been gay or had tendencies towards it.... Though I have been hit on and had the ego flattered a few times..lol...guess I've got the gay love look. :P
to answer your question OP.. I can speak for myself... I want you to search your heart and follow it. Any Christian here knows that God's love is both eternal and UNCONDITIONAL. But to be pushed away from God by hatered of others that claim to be of God simply because you are gay ought to be blasphemy.
I admit i'm typing pretty fast ...so i reserve the right to misspeak approxomately 15% of this post! :P
gotta get into AoC with my girl...be back later! lol
It's not a matter of if gay folks will be able to marry, it's when.
Laws are meant to be tested, pushed and eventually broken. That is actually the backbone of the american way.
I don't think he's claiming to be a new species. Being gay is not a physical difference.
I actually believe that YOU might not have been born gay. Perversion pervades the jewish community and you're probably just reacting to that. I know i'd be a little wierd if some guy wanted to skin my penis when i turned 13. Psychological damage like that can lead to all types of mental problems.. maybe being gay in your case is just that.
Make a difference!
There are still 4 million absentee ballots to be counted. Don't lose hope. In addition good will prevail and gays will be able to become married again. There have already been 3 suites filed against 8. The big thing here was that rights were taken away and that isn't the american way. I just got back from a rally where Mayor Jerry Sanders(mayor of San Diego spoke) on being against proposition 8 and how he had to tell one of his daughters that was gay that she no longer had the same rights as her other daughter. Don't lose home. Arnold the Governor, Feinsten and the mayor of LA all were against NO!
I agree with this.
I'm sure its tough to deal with. I've been in the military environment most of my adult life and it is generally hostile toward gays.
Personally I don't care either way about anyones sexual orientation. What you do on your time is your business. If it doesn't effect job performance it's irrelevant to me. I'm not gay, everyone knows it, no one bothers me. I'm married, I'm not interested in affairs with other females, no one bothers me about it. Its pretty cut and dry in my book.
If this is where you find your joy and happiness in life well fine, I don't think it is right to deny that.
Good luck to you upallnight. The only thing you can do is what the entire premise of our country was built on...Fight for your rights. No one ever said it was going to be easy and it would happen in your lifetime but what are the alternitives? If it is worth having, it is worth fighting for. If all you plan on doing is sitting back and whinning about it and making yourself out to be a victim, well you get what you put into it.
Gay marriage bans wont last a decade with all the conservative old farts dying off. Change only happens when the oldest folks die off and take their antiquated values to the grave with them.
By the time we're all old bastards there wont be anything left to legalize, socialize or improvise unless some entirely new issues crop soon. Like human/alien marriage after the first contact of 2012... or some such shit.
So yeah- Im sorry it's taking so long for all these folks from the era of "serparate but equal" so long to die. But I wish you the best of luck.
I know it's probably a thing hard to comprehend, but people like myself who are still in their twenties happen to believe in this archaic silly thing valled ethics and morality, and don't believe that it's arbitrary.
I understand it's probably lost on people like you...But it'll never die.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
I know it's probably a thing hard to comprehend, but people like myself who are still in their twenties happen to believe in this archaic silly thing valled ethics and morality, and don't believe that it's arbitrary.
I understand it's probably lost on people like you...But it'll never die.
so who says yours are the holder of the corrent ethics and sense of morals for everyone? Dont say number of people who agree with me because i can pretty much promise that no one holds that not even if you went by popular vote, and it would suck for you to lose something you value because you arent the majority.
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
Let me tell a story. It's not about a gay group, but I think you'll see where I'm going.
Last year, I heard about one sociologist's experience as a woman of color meeting with professors and other students at a black sociologist association. The professors impressed upon the students how important it was to always dress in a three piece suit for lectures, always put their lectures on power point, and to always be prepared with names, literature, business cards, etc. To my caucasian ears, this seemed a bit extreme. Not even the professors, let alone the graduate students, take such measures when attending or giving lectures.
But when I learned why the professors and students of color were so mindful of such things, I understood. In higher academia especially, there has been a big push to make departments and universities more diverse in terms of faculty appointments. Professors and students of color know that being who they are predisposes others to assume that the only reason they are on the faculty is because of their race. As a result, the black faculty implored the black students to be extra mindful of how they deport themselves; they didn't want there to be any doubt that they got their positions for the right reasons. In a sense, rightly or wrongly, academics of color realize that not only individual credibility is at stake when one of their number gets an appointment, but the integrity of all black academics is at stake when one gets an appointment.
For all the collective action I've seen from the gay and lesbian movement, I've yet to see the sort of discipline that other movements have. Like the poster from Atlanta said, I think gays and lesbians got the wrong message from the civil rights movement; that's it's all about marches and expression and subculture. It's what Barney Frank called "gay politics," and it doesn't work very well. All it does is gives the Pat Robertsons of the world more videotapes they can show on the 700 Club to get millions of dollars in donations they can subsequently pour into Arkansas and California.
It seems to me that the LGBT community has the courage to kiss in public, but that's not the sort of courage I suspect is going to be necessary to win this fight, just like the courage to wear a Snoop Dog T-shirt in class isn't the courage that black scholars needed. I suspect that the courage that is needed now from the LGBT community is the courage to not kiss in public, or dress in drag on marches, or discuss their homosexuality in a conspicuous venue. What I suspect is needed is the courage to mentor other gays and lesbians to be mindful of appearances--not because it's right--but because too much is at stake for it to be any other way.
Ultimately though, this isn't my fight as much as it is your fight, and your community's fight. I wish you luck.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I know it's probably a thing hard to comprehend, but people like myself who are still in their twenties happen to believe in this archaic silly thing valled ethics and morality, and don't believe that it's arbitrary.
I understand it's probably lost on people like you...But it'll never die.
But thats a personal value (based on what?) that people of one group try to inflict on others.
Homosexuality is not a value, moral philosophy or ethic any more then heterosexuality is, its a sexual orientation, nothing more.
If this guy finds love, happiness and comfort in life with this and someone denies that to him, who is wrong? Who is oppressed and who is the oppressor? Isn't the right to pursue "happiness" covered under our Constitution?
Why would anyone care? Let these people alone, life is hard enough without this sort of thing. If they want to be married, let them. What difference does it make to anyone other then religious folks trying to exert their will to control on others. What they try to do is say "love, happiness and self fulfillment" is OK in one case (M/F) but not in any other combination. Thats Hypocrisy.
Anyway, just my personal thoughts and opinions nothing hostile in the tone toward anyone. This is a touchy subject to be sure. Glad its not my fight. I can grab my wifes butt anytime I like (well as long as SHE is ok with being playful lol) and express my affection freely on a whim, these people, not so much.