lol @ anyone thinking that being a proffesional developer is any better or worse than being an indy in todays mmo market.
Sorry to burst you're fanboy bubble but in order to make a AAA commercial grade MMORPG you NEED TO HAVE A PROFESSIONAL SEASONED TEAM.
There's no exceptions. Coding a MMORPG is one of the most complex things you can do. It's basically like creating an operating system.
Of course there's shortcuts like licensing hero engine or big world... but Aventurine did not do that.
They have yet to prove that their proprietary technology even functions properly.
Like the 4 guys that started off EvE? And the huge team that made AoC?
Face it. Being considered "PROFESSIONAL SEASONED TEAM" by the scum of the internet isn't a prerequiste to make a 'AAA comerical grade MMORPGs.
Thats not the norm, Microsoft was started in a garage by a couple guys and now look at em. Does that mean any of us can log off here and do the same? The fact of the matter is, Tasos himself has no experience doing the job he is doing right now. Polarization at one point had the past employment history of a lot of the Aventurine employees posted and they were sorely lacking in anything concerning game development.
Frankly, I think their inexperience is holding this project back more than anything.
lol @ anyone thinking that being a proffesional developer is any better or worse than being an indy in todays mmo market.
Sorry to burst you're fanboy bubble but in order to make a AAA commercial grade MMORPG you NEED TO HAVE A PROFESSIONAL SEASONED TEAM.
There's no exceptions. Coding a MMORPG is one of the most complex things you can do. It's basically like creating an operating system.
Of course there's shortcuts like licensing hero engine or big world... but Aventurine did not do that.
They have yet to prove that their proprietary technology even functions properly.
Like the 4 guys that started off EvE? And the huge team that made AoC?
Face it. Being considered "PROFESSIONAL SEASONED TEAM" by the scum of the internet isn't a prerequiste to make a 'AAA comerical grade MMORPGs.
Thats not the norm, Microsoft was started in a garage by a couple guys and now look at em. Does that mean any of us can log off here and do the same? The fact of the matter is, Tasos himself has no experience doing the job he is doing right now. Polarization at one point had the past employment history of a lot of the Aventurine employees posted and they were sorely lacking in anything concerning game development.
Frankly, I think their inexperience is holding this project back more than anything.
The last two MMOs Ive played that I didn't htink I wasted my money were EvE and CoH...both made by teams about the same size as DF's or smaller (in CoHs case). The two biggest MMO disasters were made by huge seasoned "professinal" MMO developing POWERHOUSES that made absolute crap.
So again,
<<<"lol @ anyone thinking that being a proffesional developer is any better or worse than being an indy in todays mmo market.">>>
Originally posted by Arcken Thats not the norm, Microsoft was started in a garage by a couple guys and now look at em. Does that mean any of us can log off here and do the same?
lol @ anyone thinking that being a proffesional developer is any better or worse than being an indy in todays mmo market.
Sorry to burst you're fanboy bubble but in order to make a AAA commercial grade MMORPG you NEED TO HAVE A PROFESSIONAL SEASONED TEAM.
There's no exceptions. Coding a MMORPG is one of the most complex things you can do. It's basically like creating an operating system.
Of course there's shortcuts like licensing hero engine or big world... but Aventurine did not do that.
They have yet to prove that their proprietary technology even functions properly.
lol the posts above mine explain what i want to say.
no exceptions? lol well thats just wrong...
Unless you are someone who thinks AoC, Vanguard, etc came out well?
Sorry to burst your troll bubble but history and its fact prove you wrong. And is not something you can dance around with your flame baiting talk...facts are there.
About the experience level of the DF developers. Tasos have said (he he) that Aventurine had a hard time finding people. So they edjucated new people right in thier building. Thisd might sound very scary. But i dont care where the programmers did learn to program. As long as the end result is good.
About the experience level of the DF developers. Tasos have said (he he) that Aventurine had a hard time finding people. So they edjucated new people right in thier building. Thisd might sound very scary. But i dont care where the programmers did learn to program. As long as the end result is good.
that sounds scary because it IS scary... and just shows that the odds that Darkfall is anything solid is very low. If that's true.
You realize that to be considered a professional 3D programmer you need at least like 5-6 years experience in the industry.
Sorry to burst your troll bubble but history and its fact prove you wrong. And is not something you can dance around with your flame baiting talk...facts are there.
What facts? What history?
Please name me at least TWO AAA commercial grade MMO's developed by a totally unproven, amateur start-up dev company built on their own unproven proprietary technology that reached world wide success.
The only one close to that I can think of is Eve Online.. beyond that there's nothing else.
On the other hand I can list a whole shit load of MMO failures started by amateur start-up companies just like Aventurine and even some with the same team sizes.
You're living in a fanboy dreamworld if you think it's so easy to code a MMORPG for an inexperienced group of people like Aventurine... not to mention a MMORPG with the (supposed) feature set that this game wants to have.. which boils down to something with more content and features then fucking world of warcraft which had a 100 man team of pro's and took like 6 years to complete.
It's hard enough for big companies with experienced teams to make one.
What makes Aventurine such a fucking magical pony?
Sorry to burst your troll bubble but history and its fact prove you wrong. And is not something you can dance around with your flame baiting talk...facts are there.
What facts? What history?
Please name me at least TWO AAA commercial grade MMO's developed by a totally unproven, amateur start-up dev company built on their own unproven proprietary technology that reached world wide success.
The only one close to that I can think of is Eve Online.. beyond that there's nothing else.
On the other hand I can list a whole shit load of MMO failures started by amateur start-up companies just like Aventurine and even some with the same team sizes.
You're living in a fanboy dreamworld if you think it's so easy to code a MMORPG for an inexperienced group of people like Aventurine... not to mention a MMORPG with the (supposed) feature set that this game wants to have..
It's hard enough for big companies with experienced teams to make one.
What makes Aventurine such a fucking magical pony?
because they actuly take the time needed to do it and not waist there fing money
because they actuly take the time needed to do it and not waist there fing money
You just pulled that straight out of your ass.
1. You don't know what kind of time they spend on developing anything.
2. You don't know what kind of money they spent on developing anything.
For all anyone knows they could of been developing part time using mostly free labor from the local colleges.
And someone else noted that Tasos said in the past that they had a hard time finding workers and lots of them were "trained" right there. Which could very well mean that many of them were guys straight out of local colleges or still in them.
Which would not necessarily even be a bad thing if they came from colleges that teach game development but Greece has nothing like that there.
because they actuly take the time needed to do it and not waist there fing money
You just pulled that straight out of your ass.
1. You don't know what kind of time they spend on developing anything.
2. You don't know what kind of money they spent on developing anything.
For all anyone knows they could of been developing part time using mostly free labor from the local colleges.
And someone else noted that Tasos said in the past that they had a hard time finding workers and lots of them were "trained" right there. Which could very well mean that many of them were guys straight out of local colleges or still in them.
Which would not necessarily even be a bad thing if they came from colleges that teach game development but Greece has nothing like that there.
I agreed with your last 2 posts...
except the last lien in this one: when I had my own company, I found the "game colleges" produced immensely inferior programmers to the point of uselessness. it was much easier, and less stressful, to hire somebody still in college or graduated with a degree from a technical college.
Those Game Colleges (and "Game Degrees") are a complete joke. I've worked with a HS Intern who was more proficient in one case.
On the topic of Darkfall though:
I don't believe they CAN'T do what they're saying... I'm saying it's unlikely they'll do it. Polarization uncovered a 2003 post about Beta just this week (thread below), it reads EXACTLY like the one from this year. 5 years, that's alot... especially if they're telling the truth about being already feature complete.
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title. "When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
because they actuly take the time needed to do it and not waist there fing money
You just pulled that straight out of your ass.
1. You don't know what kind of time they spend on developing anything.
2. You don't know what kind of money they spent on developing anything.
For all anyone knows they could of been developing part time using mostly free labor from the local colleges.
And someone else noted that Tasos said in the past that they had a hard time finding workers and lots of them were "trained" right there. Which could very well mean that many of them were guys straight out of local colleges or still in them.
Which would not necessarily even be a bad thing if they came from colleges that teach game development but Greece has nothing like that there.
I agreed with your last 2 posts...
except the last lien in this one: when I had my own company, I found the "game colleges" produced immensely inferior programmers to the point of uselessness. it was much easier, and less stressful, to hire somebody still in college or graduated with a degree from a technical college.
Those Game Colleges (and "Game Degrees") are a complete joke. I've worked with a HS Intern who was more proficient in one case.
On the topic of Darkfall though:
I don't believe they CAN'T do what they're saying... I'm saying it's unlikely they'll do it. Polarization uncovered a 2003 post about Beta just this week (thread below), it reads EXACTLY like the one from this year. 5 years, that's alot... especially if they're telling the truth about being already feature complete.
I don't believe they CAN'T do what they're saying... I'm saying it's unlikely they'll do it. Polarization uncovered a 2003 post about Beta just this week (thread below), it reads EXACTLY like the one from this year. 5 years, that's alot... especially if they're telling the truth about being already feature complete.
that 2003 was the old darkfall
The 2003 was a completely different feature set?
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title. "When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
You idiots are argueing on the propability of Indy vs. Nominated Professional in succession, do you really want to go into the detail ratio of failed or complete games between these two sides? I assure you, you will be running for your life from this game. Majority of independently developed games are made on almost no income, but from the other side of the fence you have this commerical company dumping millions of dollars into paid salaries of employees. You might argue that if these employees were to be paid based on the succession of the game, they may just produce a better game instead of actually treating it as a job. However, they are the ones who have stepped up and accepted game development as a main or secondary source of income therefore, they will and should be trained in all of the updated recent game development resources. You're arguement is like comparing two people who play basketball, one just plays at the gym or in the street in leagues while the other is participating in the NBA. Ofcourse, you may argue that you beat that NBA player in 1on1, but no one gives a shit. You know why? Because he has more prestige than other, and there is always these hidden know-abouts that the amateurs will never grasps until they cross-over.
Oh yeah, EVE succeeds in being independently developed. How true is this? You realized that they had to produce income in order to pay for the development costs. You do realized they had a company selling very successful board games in their country? We don't know for sure experience of the development team, but you have to reason with anyone and come out and say that, yes they did have experience in some industry of software that helped in the success of EVE. I'm sorry, but a successful video game isn't pulled out of someone's ass, there's always more to it then meets the eye.
However, whoever said that independent teams cannot be experienced? As far as we know, independent teams are just teams placed together socially to obtain a goal. Ever heard of getting together with some friends at work to make a game on their personal time?
Comments
Sorry to burst you're fanboy bubble but in order to make a AAA commercial grade MMORPG you NEED TO HAVE A PROFESSIONAL SEASONED TEAM.
There's no exceptions. Coding a MMORPG is one of the most complex things you can do. It's basically like creating an operating system.
Of course there's shortcuts like licensing hero engine or big world... but Aventurine did not do that.
They have yet to prove that their proprietary technology even functions properly.
Like the 4 guys that started off EvE? And the huge team that made AoC?
Face it. Being considered "PROFESSIONAL SEASONED TEAM" by the scum of the internet isn't a prerequiste to make a AAA comerical grade MMORPG.
Sorry to burst you're fanboy bubble but in order to make a AAA commercial grade MMORPG you NEED TO HAVE A PROFESSIONAL SEASONED TEAM.
There's no exceptions. Coding a MMORPG is one of the most complex things you can do. It's basically like creating an operating system.
Of course there's shortcuts like licensing hero engine or big world... but Aventurine did not do that.
They have yet to prove that their proprietary technology even functions properly.
Like the 4 guys that started off EvE? And the huge team that made AoC?
Face it. Being considered "PROFESSIONAL SEASONED TEAM" by the scum of the internet isn't a prerequiste to make a 'AAA comerical grade MMORPGs.
Thats not the norm, Microsoft was started in a garage by a couple guys and now look at em. Does that mean any of us can log off here and do the same? The fact of the matter is, Tasos himself has no experience doing the job he is doing right now. Polarization at one point had the past employment history of a lot of the Aventurine employees posted and they were sorely lacking in anything concerning game development.
Frankly, I think their inexperience is holding this project back more than anything.
Sorry to burst you're fanboy bubble but in order to make a AAA commercial grade MMORPG you NEED TO HAVE A PROFESSIONAL SEASONED TEAM.
There's no exceptions. Coding a MMORPG is one of the most complex things you can do. It's basically like creating an operating system.
Of course there's shortcuts like licensing hero engine or big world... but Aventurine did not do that.
They have yet to prove that their proprietary technology even functions properly.
Like the 4 guys that started off EvE? And the huge team that made AoC?
Face it. Being considered "PROFESSIONAL SEASONED TEAM" by the scum of the internet isn't a prerequiste to make a 'AAA comerical grade MMORPGs.
Thats not the norm, Microsoft was started in a garage by a couple guys and now look at em. Does that mean any of us can log off here and do the same? The fact of the matter is, Tasos himself has no experience doing the job he is doing right now. Polarization at one point had the past employment history of a lot of the Aventurine employees posted and they were sorely lacking in anything concerning game development.
Frankly, I think their inexperience is holding this project back more than anything.
The last two MMOs Ive played that I didn't htink I wasted my money were EvE and CoH...both made by teams about the same size as DF's or smaller (in CoHs case). The two biggest MMO disasters were made by huge seasoned "professinal" MMO developing POWERHOUSES that made absolute crap.
So again,
<<<"lol @ anyone thinking that being a proffesional developer is any better or worse than being an indy in todays mmo market.">>>
www.ubuntu.com/
uk.youtube.com/watch
Sorry to burst you're fanboy bubble but in order to make a AAA commercial grade MMORPG you NEED TO HAVE A PROFESSIONAL SEASONED TEAM.
There's no exceptions. Coding a MMORPG is one of the most complex things you can do. It's basically like creating an operating system.
Of course there's shortcuts like licensing hero engine or big world... but Aventurine did not do that.
They have yet to prove that their proprietary technology even functions properly.
lol the posts above mine explain what i want to say.
no exceptions? lol well thats just wrong...
Unless you are someone who thinks AoC, Vanguard, etc came out well?
Sorry to burst your troll bubble but history and its fact prove you wrong. And is not something you can dance around with your flame baiting talk...facts are there.
---sig---
Click this for lulz: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/173737/page/6
About the experience level of the DF developers. Tasos have said (he he) that Aventurine had a hard time finding people. So they edjucated new people right in thier building. Thisd might sound very scary. But i dont care where the programmers did learn to program. As long as the end result is good.
This thread delivers.
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
that sounds scary because it IS scary... and just shows that the odds that Darkfall is anything solid is very low. If that's true.
You realize that to be considered a professional 3D programmer you need at least like 5-6 years experience in the industry.
What facts? What history?
Please name me at least TWO AAA commercial grade MMO's developed by a totally unproven, amateur start-up dev company built on their own unproven proprietary technology that reached world wide success.
The only one close to that I can think of is Eve Online.. beyond that there's nothing else.
On the other hand I can list a whole shit load of MMO failures started by amateur start-up companies just like Aventurine and even some with the same team sizes.
You're living in a fanboy dreamworld if you think it's so easy to code a MMORPG for an inexperienced group of people like Aventurine... not to mention a MMORPG with the (supposed) feature set that this game wants to have.. which boils down to something with more content and features then fucking world of warcraft which had a 100 man team of pro's and took like 6 years to complete.
It's hard enough for big companies with experienced teams to make one.
What makes Aventurine such a fucking magical pony?
What facts? What history?
Please name me at least TWO AAA commercial grade MMO's developed by a totally unproven, amateur start-up dev company built on their own unproven proprietary technology that reached world wide success.
The only one close to that I can think of is Eve Online.. beyond that there's nothing else.
On the other hand I can list a whole shit load of MMO failures started by amateur start-up companies just like Aventurine and even some with the same team sizes.
You're living in a fanboy dreamworld if you think it's so easy to code a MMORPG for an inexperienced group of people like Aventurine... not to mention a MMORPG with the (supposed) feature set that this game wants to have..
It's hard enough for big companies with experienced teams to make one.
What makes Aventurine such a fucking magical pony?
because they actuly take the time needed to do it and not waist there fing money
You just pulled that straight out of your ass.
1. You don't know what kind of time they spend on developing anything.
2. You don't know what kind of money they spent on developing anything.
For all anyone knows they could of been developing part time using mostly free labor from the local colleges.
And someone else noted that Tasos said in the past that they had a hard time finding workers and lots of them were "trained" right there. Which could very well mean that many of them were guys straight out of local colleges or still in them.
Which would not necessarily even be a bad thing if they came from colleges that teach game development but Greece has nothing like that there.
You just pulled that straight out of your ass.
1. You don't know what kind of time they spend on developing anything.
2. You don't know what kind of money they spent on developing anything.
For all anyone knows they could of been developing part time using mostly free labor from the local colleges.
And someone else noted that Tasos said in the past that they had a hard time finding workers and lots of them were "trained" right there. Which could very well mean that many of them were guys straight out of local colleges or still in them.
Which would not necessarily even be a bad thing if they came from colleges that teach game development but Greece has nothing like that there.
I agreed with your last 2 posts...
except the last lien in this one: when I had my own company, I found the "game colleges" produced immensely inferior programmers to the point of uselessness. it was much easier, and less stressful, to hire somebody still in college or graduated with a degree from a technical college.
Those Game Colleges (and "Game Degrees") are a complete joke. I've worked with a HS Intern who was more proficient in one case.
On the topic of Darkfall though:
I don't believe they CAN'T do what they're saying... I'm saying it's unlikely they'll do it. Polarization uncovered a 2003 post about Beta just this week (thread below), it reads EXACTLY like the one from this year. 5 years, that's alot... especially if they're telling the truth about being already feature complete.
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title.
"When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
You just pulled that straight out of your ass.
1. You don't know what kind of time they spend on developing anything.
2. You don't know what kind of money they spent on developing anything.
For all anyone knows they could of been developing part time using mostly free labor from the local colleges.
And someone else noted that Tasos said in the past that they had a hard time finding workers and lots of them were "trained" right there. Which could very well mean that many of them were guys straight out of local colleges or still in them.
Which would not necessarily even be a bad thing if they came from colleges that teach game development but Greece has nothing like that there.
I agreed with your last 2 posts...
except the last lien in this one: when I had my own company, I found the "game colleges" produced immensely inferior programmers to the point of uselessness. it was much easier, and less stressful, to hire somebody still in college or graduated with a degree from a technical college.
Those Game Colleges (and "Game Degrees") are a complete joke. I've worked with a HS Intern who was more proficient in one case.
On the topic of Darkfall though:
I don't believe they CAN'T do what they're saying... I'm saying it's unlikely they'll do it. Polarization uncovered a 2003 post about Beta just this week (thread below), it reads EXACTLY like the one from this year. 5 years, that's alot... especially if they're telling the truth about being already feature complete.
that 2003 was the old darkfall
that 2003 was the old darkfall
The 2003 was a completely different feature set?
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title.
"When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
You idiots are argueing on the propability of Indy vs. Nominated Professional in succession, do you really want to go into the detail ratio of failed or complete games between these two sides? I assure you, you will be running for your life from this game. Majority of independently developed games are made on almost no income, but from the other side of the fence you have this commerical company dumping millions of dollars into paid salaries of employees. You might argue that if these employees were to be paid based on the succession of the game, they may just produce a better game instead of actually treating it as a job. However, they are the ones who have stepped up and accepted game development as a main or secondary source of income therefore, they will and should be trained in all of the updated recent game development resources. You're arguement is like comparing two people who play basketball, one just plays at the gym or in the street in leagues while the other is participating in the NBA. Ofcourse, you may argue that you beat that NBA player in 1on1, but no one gives a shit. You know why? Because he has more prestige than other, and there is always these hidden know-abouts that the amateurs will never grasps until they cross-over.
Oh yeah, EVE succeeds in being independently developed. How true is this? You realized that they had to produce income in order to pay for the development costs. You do realized they had a company selling very successful board games in their country? We don't know for sure experience of the development team, but you have to reason with anyone and come out and say that, yes they did have experience in some industry of software that helped in the success of EVE. I'm sorry, but a successful video game isn't pulled out of someone's ass, there's always more to it then meets the eye.
However, whoever said that independent teams cannot be experienced? As far as we know, independent teams are just teams placed together socially to obtain a goal. Ever heard of getting together with some friends at work to make a game on their personal time?
You are wrong! Successful video games always come from someone's ass! Everyone knows that.
I am sure that when Darkfall releases, it will be because it was pulled from someone's ass.