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Darkfall's Beta NDA

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  • GaladournGaladourn Member RarePosts: 1,813

    so is this NDA document going to be made available for everyone to , at least, see what it stipulates?

  • AbrahmmAbrahmm Member Posts: 2,448
    Originally posted by VPellen

    Originally posted by wjrasmussen


    So what if so and so says something which may or may not be a real game feature.  Do you have to verify that is it part of the game to make sure it is an NDA violation?   If not, then you can warn/ban people on joke posting.  Seems like you are putting yourself into a tough situation. 
    Or is this really about the negative darkfall information, like someone complaining about how somthing works.   Because, consumers are looking to gather information if you block negative information could consumers somehow find a way to say, you wouldn't allow this information to come out because you go paid advertising dollars from darkfall................lawsuit.  Is that the position you are puttng yourself in offically?

    In regards to joke posting: We can't really verify what is and isn't a legitimate NDA violation, so if somebody fabricates information about the beta when they're not actually in the beta, they're still going to get warned because there's no way to know otherwise. A person can cleverly avoid getting warned for things such as this by not fabricating beta information.

    As for the whole negative publicity thing.. I think it's time I explained why I made this thread.

    A while back I was doing my rounds and I noticed a few reports of NDA violations coming from some threads on the forums. Now there were a few which were vague, just "Yeah I'm in the beta" typed things. So I thought, well shit, is this a violation of Darkfall's NDA? I remember there was some confusion with this type of thing for previous games.

    So I contacted their CM. I figured he'd know if the NDA covered talking about if you were in beta or not. I asked him if I could get a copy of the NDA because it's hard to know what is and isn't a violation. He told me (as I showed in my post before) that pretty much anything up to and including disclosing if you're in beta or not is an NDA violation. Okay, fair enough, I took his word for it. I figure any CM worth his salt is going to know the basic limits of his game's NDA. I shared the information I got with the other moderators, too.

    So I then I figured, since there's been talk of the beta and such lately, maybe this information would be a good thing to put up here, as it might prevent some people who are in the beta from violating the NDA unintentionally. So that's why I made this thread.

    NOW.

    In regards to the whole "are they really in beta, is it a big hoax, why are they covering up things," etc etc etc..

    Companies have NDAs. All companies have NDAs covering their betas, more or less. This isn't something exclusive to Darkfall. And, given the situation, yeah, I suppose they could stand to benefit from people talking about their game, but the same argument could be made for any game. Still, developers have NDAs. I honestly don't know why. Maybe one day I'll have the pleasure of working with an MMO development team, and I'll understand why. But until that day comes around, I'm just going to accept it as standard. I may complain about it occasionally.





    Finally, as for being paid off by the Darkfall team to suppress negative press about the game, I simply have one question for you: Have you read the forums lately? Because let me tell you, if we're being paid to cover up bad press about Darkfall, then we're doing a pretty fucking lousy job of it.

     

    This is very interesting... I'd love to see if you can get your hands on a copy of the NDA.

    I can see that conversation now...

    VPellen: Hey CM, can I get a copy of your NDA?

    CM: **eyes widen** **spits cofee** "Uhh yeah, sure" **Starts typing frantically** "we can get you that copy as soon as we writ... I mean finish converting it to the proper text format... and stuff..."

    Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
    Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
    Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
    Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
    Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.

  • bluegoo2bluegoo2 Member Posts: 72
    Originally posted by VPellen


    A friendly reminder about Darkfall's Beta NDA: If you are in the beta, telling other people you are in the beta is an NDA violation. If you say you're in beta, expect to get warned and expect your post to get deleted.
    In addition, exposing information available only to beta testers (the "My-Friend-Is-In-Beta-So-I'm-Not-Breaking-The-NDA" defense) is also going to get you a warning, because you are not allowed to disclose things that are covered by the NDA, even if you are not the one in the beta.
    There, now wasn't that little bit of reading worth it to avoid getting dropped into a pit of lions?

     

    It's a good thing that there's no beta for people to get into.

  • PolarizationPolarization Member Posts: 1,410
    Originally posted by Galadourn


    so is this NDA document going to be made available for everyone to , at least, see what it stipulates?



     

    Only after Tasos finds the time to finish typing it.

  • wjrasmussenwjrasmussen Member Posts: 1,493
    Originally posted by VPellen

    Originally posted by wjrasmussen


    So what if so and so says something which may or may not be a real game feature.  Do you have to verify that is it part of the game to make sure it is an NDA violation?   If not, then you can warn/ban people on joke posting.  Seems like you are putting yourself into a tough situation. 
    Or is this really about the negative darkfall information, like someone complaining about how somthing works.   Because, consumers are looking to gather information if you block negative information could consumers somehow find a way to say, you wouldn't allow this information to come out because you go paid advertising dollars from darkfall................lawsuit.  Is that the position you are puttng yourself in offically?

    In regards to joke posting: We can't really verify what is and isn't a legitimate NDA violation, so if somebody fabricates information about the beta when they're not actually in the beta, they're still going to get warned because there's no way to know otherwise. A person can cleverly avoid getting warned for things such as this by not fabricating beta information.

    As for the whole negative publicity thing.. I think it's time I explained why I made this thread.

    A while back I was doing my rounds and I noticed a few reports of NDA violations coming from some threads on the forums. Now there were a few which were vague, just "Yeah I'm in the beta" typed things. So I thought, well shit, is this a violation of Darkfall's NDA? I remember there was some confusion with this type of thing for previous games.

    So I contacted their CM. I figured he'd know if the NDA covered talking about if you were in beta or not. I asked him if I could get a copy of the NDA because it's hard to know what is and isn't a violation. He told me (as I showed in my post before) that pretty much anything up to and including disclosing if you're in beta or not is an NDA violation. Okay, fair enough, I took his word for it. I figure any CM worth his salt is going to know the basic limits of his game's NDA. I shared the information I got with the other moderators, too.

    So I then I figured, since there's been talk of the beta and such lately, maybe this information would be a good thing to put up here, as it might prevent some people who are in the beta from violating the NDA unintentionally. So that's why I made this thread.

    NOW.

    In regards to the whole "are they really in beta, is it a big hoax, why are they covering up things," etc etc etc..

    Companies have NDAs. All companies have NDAs covering their betas, more or less. This isn't something exclusive to Darkfall. And, given the situation, yeah, I suppose they could stand to benefit from people talking about their game, but the same argument could be made for any game. Still, developers have NDAs. I honestly don't know why. Maybe one day I'll have the pleasure of working with an MMO development team, and I'll understand why. But until that day comes around, I'm just going to accept it as standard. I may complain about it occasionally.





    Finally, as for being paid off by the Darkfall team to suppress negative press about the game, I simply have one question for you: Have you read the forums lately? Because let me tell you, if we're being paid to cover up bad press about Darkfall, then we're doing a pretty fucking lousy job of it.



     

    But how do you know if any of those negative posts aren't violating NDA and must be issued a warning?  You must issue a warning if it might be violating the NDA.

    It seems the information might be one way.  Darkfall and other devs can give you information to post about the game, but others are not.   The question which needs to be answered is:  Are you advocates for the game producers or the consumers?

  • VPellenVPellen Member Posts: 215
    Originally posted by wjrasmussen

    But how do you know if any of those negative posts aren't violating NDA and must be issued a warning?  You must issue a warning if it might be violating the NDA.



    I'm not sure I follow? The negativity of a post has no bearing on if it's a potential NDA violation or not.

  • PolarizationPolarization Member Posts: 1,410

    VPellen please simply request access to this Public Beta as a representative of MMORPG.com and see what the response is.

  • MrBootsMrBoots Member UncommonPosts: 289

    How do you know what the DF beta NDA says? Isn't it just speculation on your part?

  • VPellenVPellen Member Posts: 215
    Originally posted by Polarization


    VPellen please simply request access to this Public Beta as a representative of MMORPG.com and see what the response is.
    1. It'd be terribly unprofessional of me to call myself a representitive of MMORPG.com.
    2. It'd be rude of me to directly ask the CM for a beta invite when I'm also trying to get other information off of him which he may not have directly at his fingertips.
    3. Even if they did let me into the beta, while it'd certainly give me access to the NDA, I wouldn't be able to tell anybody about being in beta, so it wouldn't help settle any debates.
    4. While this may get me ugly stares, I honestly don't have much interest in playing Darkfall. It's interesting to follow because it gets so much press here, and I'm really into the idea of player run worlds and PvP with concequences and all that jazz, but I am a jaded and cynical being, and I doubt I'd actually enjoy playing Darkfall that much.
  • BettaBetta Member UncommonPosts: 9

    Im not in the beta, does eliminating me put me in breach of the NDA ;

  • APEistAPEist Member UncommonPosts: 409
    Originally posted by Abrahmm

    Originally posted by VPellen

    Originally posted by wjrasmussen


    So what if so and so says something which may or may not be a real game feature.  Do you have to verify that is it part of the game to make sure it is an NDA violation?   If not, then you can warn/ban people on joke posting.  Seems like you are putting yourself into a tough situation. 
    Or is this really about the negative darkfall information, like someone complaining about how somthing works.   Because, consumers are looking to gather information if you block negative information could consumers somehow find a way to say, you wouldn't allow this information to come out because you go paid advertising dollars from darkfall................lawsuit.  Is that the position you are puttng yourself in offically?

    In regards to joke posting: We can't really verify what is and isn't a legitimate NDA violation, so if somebody fabricates information about the beta when they're not actually in the beta, they're still going to get warned because there's no way to know otherwise. A person can cleverly avoid getting warned for things such as this by not fabricating beta information.

    As for the whole negative publicity thing.. I think it's time I explained why I made this thread.

    A while back I was doing my rounds and I noticed a few reports of NDA violations coming from some threads on the forums. Now there were a few which were vague, just "Yeah I'm in the beta" typed things. So I thought, well shit, is this a violation of Darkfall's NDA? I remember there was some confusion with this type of thing for previous games.

    So I contacted their CM. I figured he'd know if the NDA covered talking about if you were in beta or not. I asked him if I could get a copy of the NDA because it's hard to know what is and isn't a violation. He told me (as I showed in my post before) that pretty much anything up to and including disclosing if you're in beta or not is an NDA violation. Okay, fair enough, I took his word for it. I figure any CM worth his salt is going to know the basic limits of his game's NDA. I shared the information I got with the other moderators, too.

    So I then I figured, since there's been talk of the beta and such lately, maybe this information would be a good thing to put up here, as it might prevent some people who are in the beta from violating the NDA unintentionally. So that's why I made this thread.

    NOW.

    In regards to the whole "are they really in beta, is it a big hoax, why are they covering up things," etc etc etc..

    Companies have NDAs. All companies have NDAs covering their betas, more or less. This isn't something exclusive to Darkfall. And, given the situation, yeah, I suppose they could stand to benefit from people talking about their game, but the same argument could be made for any game. Still, developers have NDAs. I honestly don't know why. Maybe one day I'll have the pleasure of working with an MMO development team, and I'll understand why. But until that day comes around, I'm just going to accept it as standard. I may complain about it occasionally.





    Finally, as for being paid off by the Darkfall team to suppress negative press about the game, I simply have one question for you: Have you read the forums lately? Because let me tell you, if we're being paid to cover up bad press about Darkfall, then we're doing a pretty fucking lousy job of it.

     

    This is very interesting... I'd love to see if you can get your hands on a copy of the NDA.

    I can see that conversation now...

    VPellen: Hey CM, can I get a copy of your NDA?

    CM: **eyes widen** **spits cofee** "Uhh yeah, sure" **Starts typing frantically** "we can get you that copy as soon as we writ... I mean finish converting it to the proper text format... and stuff..."

     

    LMAO

    Almost made me spit my coffee!

    _______________________________________________
    Games looking forward to: Fallen Earth, Mortal Online

    The noob formally not known as not being the formally not unkown known APEist; The Stone Cold Killer of Tarq.

  • DarcknyghtDarcknyght Member Posts: 127

    Leaks are going to happen and guess what they can't trace them either if your smart. Because if i wanted to leak information about the game i could do so without you even knowing it was me doing it. So the NDA is bogus and is only there so people think they are in the firing lane so they don't try and tell. Which helps them keep big bugs and beta testers telling everyone how much of a pile the game state is at the moment which personally i think would help a game because they wont try and rush release it because everyone knows there game isn't ready so they would put more effort into the game. Darkfall is going to be just like all the other mmo's out there but with there own little twist to it and well seeing as of right now everyone knows what to expect from any mmo a NDA is just there so you at least pay 50 dollars when the game is released.

  • ZorvanZorvan Member CommonPosts: 8,912

    Originally posted by VPellen

    Zorvan: I think I get what you're saying, but there's some confusion.
    Is your primary concern that the word of Darkfall's CM is somehow not trustworthy? Or is it rather the concern that when dealing with moderation, one should have more solid ground to stand on than the word of an official?

    Solid ground is my concern.


    Originally posted by VPellen

    Hrm, you know, in retrospect Zorvan, you're right. The word of a CM is nice, but it's not a legal document. If I were in a position of power I'd be tempted to say "Fuck it, good enough", but I'm not in a position of power, and as a user, the idea of rules being enforced without a solid basis bugs the crap out of me.
    I'm going to see if I can't get a hold of a copy of the NDA. I'll post it here when and if I get my hands on it.

    Thank you.

     

  • ardohainardohain Member Posts: 103

    the first rule of being in DF BETA is: we DO NOT talk about being in DF BETA;

    the second rule of being in DF BETA is: we DO NOT talk about being in DF BETA:

    the third rule of being in DF BETA is: if it's your first time...you HAVE to sandbox the vaporware

  • JayBirdzJayBirdz Member Posts: 1,017

    I think people are looking at this the wrong way.  This has more to do with MMORPG.com's credibility than anything else (in the eyes of this and other MMO developers, this site is a business).  They are respecting the wishes of a developer (which is good).  So it is just another locked door, does that surprise anyone? 

    Also why does an NDA need to be produced (some people are asking for this)?  It still wouldn't mean anything.   Just another locked door.    

  • ZorvanZorvan Member CommonPosts: 8,912
    Originally posted by JayBirdz


    I think people are looking at this the wrong way.  This has more to do with MMORPG.com's credibility than anything else (in the eyes of this and other MMO developers, this site is a business).  They are respecting the wishes of a developer (which is good).  So it is just another locked door, does that surprise anyone? 
    Also why does an NDA need to be produced (some people are asking for this)?  It still wouldn't mean anything.   Just another locked door.    



     

    No, right now they're respecting the wishes of a Darkfall Community Manager ( i.e. glorified moderator and low-tier marketer ) without actual input or documentation from the devs themselves showing what that CM claims is even true and not just his best guess stated as fact.

    And in respecting that CMs word without documentation being shown to them as proof, it puts them in the  position of possible unfair treatment of their customers (i.e. mmorpg.com account holders).

  • wjrasmussenwjrasmussen Member Posts: 1,493
    Originally posted by VPellen

    Originally posted by wjrasmussen

    But how do you know if any of those negative posts aren't violating NDA and must be issued a warning?  You must issue a warning if it might be violating the NDA.



    I'm not sure I follow? The negativity of a post has no bearing on if it's a potential NDA violation or not.



     

    It seems the information might be one way. Darkfall and other devs can give you information to post about the game, but others are not. The question which needs to be answered is: Are you advocates for the game producers or the consumers?

     

  • VPellenVPellen Member Posts: 215
    Originally posted by Zorvan

    No, right now they're respecting the wishes of a Darkfall Community Manager ( i.e. glorified moderator and low-tier marketer ) without actual input or documentation from the devs themselves showing what that CM claims is even true and not just his best guess stated as fact.
    And in respecting that CMs word without documentation being shown to them as proof, it puts them in the  position of possible unfair treatment of their customers (i.e. mmorpg.com account holders).



    Woah, woah. The Darkfall NDA isn't being upheld "out of respect for the wishes of the Darkfall Community Manager". The Darkfall NDA is being upheld because it's assumed that Darkfall has an NDA, and it's assumed that it covers information about the game in its beta state. My exchange with the CM was more about confirming a minor detail (that is, being able to state if you're in the beta or not). Had I not made the inquiry, I have little doubt that the NDA rule would have still been upheld.

    We do warn for such things, by the way: We don't outright ban people. The purpose of a warning is to say "hey, don't do this please", not to punish people.

    I still haven't gotten a response from DF's CM about the actual NDA yet. Oh well, patience I guess.

  • JayBirdzJayBirdz Member Posts: 1,017
    Originally posted by Zorvan

    Originally posted by JayBirdz


    I think people are looking at this the wrong way.  This has more to do with MMORPG.com's credibility than anything else (in the eyes of this and other MMO developers, this site is a business).  They are respecting the wishes of a developer (which is good).  So it is just another locked door, does that surprise anyone? 
    Also why does an NDA need to be produced (some people are asking for this)?  It still wouldn't mean anything.   Just another locked door.    



     

    No, right now they're respecting the wishes of a Darkfall Community Manager ( i.e. glorified moderator and low-tier marketer ) without actual input or documentation from the devs themselves showing what that CM claims is even true and not just his best guess stated as fact.

    And in respecting that CMs word without documentation being shown to them as proof, it puts them in the  position of possible unfair treatment of their customers (i.e. mmorpg.com account holders).

    You are making a huge deal out of nothing though.  This isn't a court of law. MMORPG.com has always respected the wishes of a company in situations like this.  Why wouldn't they?

    Credible company or not, you would think in this situation a CM knows what he is saying.  What would actually be a surprise is if people were able to talk.

    I'm as skeptical as you and many others.  Seeing an NDA though isn't going bring anything new out in the open.  So why make such a big deal out of this.  It is not going to change anything.  If someone said they were in "The Beta" would you believe them?  If there is anything going on that is hush hush, this is the last site to turn to for information. 

    I think you are really stretching it a bit far by stating you are a customer (by definition).  I know what you mean though. 

     

     





     

  • Cyborg99Cyborg99 Member Posts: 576

    VPellen I have a question for you (you don't have to answer if you don't want to)

    Have you ever seen an mmo company handle an NDA like Aventurine is and have you ever considered asking them why they don't do much pr/updates?

     

    Trolls = Hardcore
    Fanbois = Carebears


    The only posts I read in threads are my own.

  • VPellenVPellen Member Posts: 215
    Originally posted by Cyborg99


    VPellen I have a question for you (you don't have to answer if you don't want to)
    Have you ever seen an mmo company handle an NDA like Aventurine is and have you ever considered asking them why they don't do much pr/updates?

     

     

    Have I ever seen an MMO company handle an NDA like Aventurine is? In the sense of the NDA being a coverall "do not talk about the beta" thing, then.. yeah, most companies do that.

    As for asking them why they don't do much PR.. I'm just a moderator with a big mouth. I am no more special than any other moderator here, and I ain't a reporter. Every company has its quirks, I guess.

  • Cyborg99Cyborg99 Member Posts: 576
    Originally posted by VPellen

    Originally posted by Cyborg99


    VPellen I have a question for you (you don't have to answer if you don't want to)
    Have you ever seen an mmo company handle an NDA like Aventurine is and have you ever considered asking them why they don't do much pr/updates?

     

     

    Have I ever seen an MMO company handle an NDA like Aventurine is? In the sense of the NDA being a coverall "do not talk about the beta" thing, then.. yeah, most companies do that.

    As for asking them why they don't do much PR.. I'm just a moderator with a big mouth. I am no more special than any other moderator here, and I ain't a reporter. Every company has its quirks, I guess.



     

    Thank you for your response.

    Trolls = Hardcore
    Fanbois = Carebears


    The only posts I read in threads are my own.

  • fatpandafatpanda Member UncommonPosts: 116

    "you are not allowed to disclose things that are covered by the NDA, even if you are not the one in the beta."

    If I'm NOT in the beta then I did NOT sign the NDA so I can talk about anything and everything I hear/see.

    I worked for a game developer and am no strabger to NDA's. Now the eprson the told me or showed me anything they broke the NDA.

    I realize that this is MMORPG saying "you are not allowed to disclose things that are covered by the NDA, even if you are not the one in the beta." and the can delete anything they want but again it's not breaking the NDA.

    Last but not leat how do you sing an NDA for something that doesn't exist (Darkfall)?

    Haha ahd to put that last part sorry.

  • SuperCrapSuperCrap Member Posts: 324
    Originally posted by JayBirdz


    I think people are looking at this the wrong way.  This has more to do with MMORPG.com's credibility than anything else (in the eyes of this and other MMO developers, this site is a business).  They are respecting the wishes of a developer (which is good).  So it is just another locked door, does that surprise anyone? 
    Also why does an NDA need to be produced (some people are asking for this)?  It still wouldn't mean anything.   Just another locked door.    

     

    I think you're looking at this the wrong way. This thread has lowered my respect for MMORPG.com staff by about ten notches, it is mmorpg.com's credibility that is at stake, not Darkfall's. Darkfall already lost their credibility in the gaming world [years ago] and can only gain credibility again by producing their game in some publicly available form.

     

    After reading this thread it is hard for me not to view MMORPG.com staff as clowns. Why is this thread stickied? There is nothing here other than uninformed hearsay. NDA applies to people who aren't even party to the NDA? Yeah, try running that one past a lawyer, and good luck. I thought the Darkfall devs were just smoking ganja, but maybe they are smoking something harder like crack....

    The one and only.

  • gan3fgan3f Member UncommonPosts: 274
    Originally posted by fatpanda


    "you are not allowed to disclose things that are covered by the NDA, even if you are not the one in the beta."
    If I'm NOT in the beta then I did NOT sign the NDA so I can talk about anything and everything I hear/see.
    I worked for a game developer and am no strabger to NDA's. Now the eprson the told me or showed me anything they broke the NDA.
    I realize that this is MMORPG saying "you are not allowed to disclose things that are covered by the NDA, even if you are not the one in the beta." and the can delete anything they want but again it's not breaking the NDA.
    Last but not leat how do you sing an NDA for something that doesn't exist (Darkfall)?
    Haha ahd to put that last part sorry.

    i am sorry but reading your post made me laugh a bit. Hopefully  you didn't write the game code, because i know there is going to be some problems

This discussion has been closed.