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isnt it hypocrite if u dont want ppl making "excessive negative comments" while you, as a swg vet, display the same comments in the swg forums?
We all are at some point, I did the same on AoC forums. I tried to remain objective but could no longer do so. Once I reached the point where even I saw I was being excessively negative I left the AoC forums on MMORPG.com. The problem is while Darth may have broke the rules, it was the moderators job to reprimand him. If people are not reprimanded then there is no point in having said rules and people will continue to do such things as is evident in the DarkFall forums. If I break the rules then by all means warn me and delete my post, it has happend to me a few times, if it's a mistake or simple error of judgement the warning and deletion will be enough for it not to happen again. If it happens again and again then a harsher penalty is in order. Without that reprimand then the individual comminting the violation can only see the action as acceptable here. Blame remains with moderation, saying it should be ok here because such and such is doing it on another forum is not an excuse for it to be happening here. It should be punished on both but the problem is , it is not.
In other words as long as DarthRaiden willing excepts the reprecussions for doing so on another part of the forums then he is not being hypocriticle when expecting others to be reprimanded for commiting the same violation on this forum.
In other words your confusing the action of regular community members with the inaction of forum moderators that should have responded in both instances.
It is still odd to not see someone break the nda and leak beta information. Someone always does for games. Also people could state they are in beta when they see the invite in their email because they have not yet agreed to the nda.
Excessive negative opinions..
Of all the phrases in the English language, I think I really do hate that one more than any other.
Let me tell you a story.
I became a moderator around this time last year. I noticed a sticky by Taera in the general forums about recruiting for volunteer moderator positions. I checked the requirements, thought "what the hell", sent off an e-mail. My primary concern was learning about the MMO industry and getting a solid idea of the community service angles. For whatever god-forsaken reason, I was one of the three moderators out of that batch that she decided to recruit. (For the curious, the others were woopin and.. somebody else, maybe confetti?)
So I started learning. Very quickly, I noticed something about the rules. All the rules were fairly clear cut. "Personal attacks" are straightforward. RMT stuff is clear cut, too. Spam, sure. Advertising, referral links, all these things are simple and easy to understand and extremely objective. When one user slags off another, there is never any confusion.
But there was one rule that stood out: Trolling.
Trolling had this fun little definition in it. "Posting excessive negative opinions" would get you warned. This rule caused me more trouble than any other because it was vague as fuck. Excessive? Who's to decide who's excessive? Everybody has different lines, and one person's liberal paradise is another person's authoritarian dictatorship. So it's left up to personal interpretation. This is bad.
On a forum, it's like this: If you moderate too heavily, you get called a dictator. If you don't moderate heavily enough, you get called limp-wristed. Somewhere there is a middle point where you're not too brutal and you're not too limp. The problem with this fine middle point is that A: It's incredibly hard to nail down, and B: The two zones overlap. If you try to maintain the perfect balance, even if you succeed, you're going to get called out by both parties. You'll be called liberal and authoritarian. At the same time. Sometimes by the same people.
I complained to her about it, actually.
History sidetrack: Apparently when Laura(Taera) took over as CM, the place was pretty rough. Moderators were casual to the point of taking favourites, things were generally pretty anarchic from what she told me. When she came in, she revised the ROC and put in new moderation rules. She locked things down, and they became more stable. Let there be no mistake: Laura was a hard-ass. She was strict, she was cautious, and she knew what she was doing. As a moderator, when you made a mistake and she came to know about it, you came to know about it. It was probably her best trait. If it hadn't been for that, I probably would have made a lot more mistakes than I did. But I'm getting off the point.
For whatever reason, the "trolling" rule is what it is. I've complained about it, but it still sits there. So what am I left to do but interpret it? I try to stay liberal. I've always tried to stay liberal. For the most parts, the "excessive negative comments" bit can completely ignored and everything still functions. Its main function, if I had to guess, is to keep people from going into 10 threads at once and just spouting off "this game sucks" without any other comment. As far as excessive negative comments go, I have had to warn for it maybe .. 3 times in the last year. No bans, just warns. It happens once every few months, tops. It really is that rare.
Then there are the "vaportrolls".
What we have here is an odd case. Darkfall is a game which tends to keep quiet. Nobody can argue this. There are no sprawling NDA breaks. There are no large-scale screenshot leaks. There are occasional reviews where they let in outsiders who hold the universal consensus of "it's good but a little rough around the edges", but besides that, all significant content comes from either the source, or people who are publicly endorsed by the source. I don't think I've seen a single comment (not just on this website, but anywhere) which says "I'm in the beta and this thing sucks." In your standard MMO, you're going to get beta leaks and opinions every which way. We're not getting this with Darkfall.
Years ago, Taera typed in the ROC. And she put down "excessive negative comments". And because of that I have to sit here and decide what's excessive and what isn't. And I honestly don't think that expressing the opinion that Darkfall may be vaporware is unreasonable. The other staff have their own opinions. This is my opinion, and I moderate by it. I should not be moderating by my opinion. It's an incredibly stupid idea, even if I have been doing it for over a year. But I don't have a choice in the matter. The rule is subjective, so I have to moderate based on opinion. All I can do is try and be as fair as possible. Usually, that means being as liberal as possible.
There was something else Taera did as a CM. She strongly discouraged moderators from posting on their staff accounts. Why? Because if we post, the things we say are taken as gospel and representative of the entire staff. Even if it's just a lone moderator running his mouth, people will take their words and say "the website thinks this" or "the staff thinks that". Foul words from a lone moderator can reflect badly on an entire website. There's a reason why my signature is a disclaimer.
Let me ask you a question as one user to another.
The number one topic of discussion on the Darkfall forums is the legitimacy of the game.
What's the number two topic?
Excessive negative opinions..
Of all the phrases in the English language, I think I really do hate that one more than any other.
Let me tell you a story.
I became a moderator around this time last year. I noticed a sticky by Taera in the general forums about recruiting for volunteer moderator positions. I checked the requirements, thought "what the hell", sent off an e-mail. My primary concern was learning about the MMO industry and getting a solid idea of the community service angles. For whatever god-forsaken reason, I was one of the three moderators out of that batch that she decided to recruit. (For the curious, the others were woopin and.. somebody else, maybe confetti?)
So I started learning. Very quickly, I noticed something about the rules. All the rules were fairly clear cut. "Personal attacks" are straightforward. RMT stuff is clear cut, too. Spam, sure. Advertising, referral links, all these things are simple and easy to understand and extremely objective. When one user slags off another, there is never any confusion.
But there was one rule that stood out: Trolling.
Trolling had this fun little definition in it. "Posting excessive negative opinions" would get you warned. This rule caused me more trouble than any other because it was vague as fuck. Excessive? Who's to decide who's excessive? Everybody has different lines, and one person's liberal paradise is another person's authoritarian dictatorship. So it's left up to personal interpretation. This is bad.
On a forum, it's like this: If you moderate too heavily, you get called a dictator. If you don't moderate heavily enough, you get called limp-wristed. Somewhere there is a middle point where you're not too brutal and you're not too limp. The problem with this fine middle point is that A: It's incredibly hard to nail down, and B: The two zones overlap. If you try to maintain the perfect balance, even if you succeed, you're going to get called out by both parties. You'll be called liberal and authoritarian. At the same time. Sometimes by the same people.
I complained to her about it, actually.
History sidetrack: Apparently when Laura(Taera) took over as CM, the place was pretty rough. Moderators were casual to the point of taking favourites, things were generally pretty anarchic from what she told me. When she came in, she revised the ROC and put in new moderation rules. She locked things down, and they became more stable. Let there be no mistake: Laura was a hard-ass. She was strict, she was cautious, and she knew what she was doing. As a moderator, when you made a mistake and she came to know about it, you came to know about it. It was probably her best trait. If it hadn't been for that, I probably would have made a lot more mistakes than I did. But I'm getting off the point.
For whatever reason, the "trolling" rule is what it is. I've complained about it, but it still sits there. So what am I left to do but interpret it? I try to stay liberal. I've always tried to stay liberal. For the most parts, the "excessive negative comments" bit can completely ignored and everything still functions. Its main function, if I had to guess, is to keep people from going into 10 threads at once and just spouting off "this game sucks" without any other comment. As far as excessive negative comments go, I have had to warn for it maybe .. 3 times in the last year. No bans, just warns. It happens once every few months, tops. It really is that rare.
Then there are the "vaportrolls".
What we have here is an odd case. Darkfall is a game which tends to keep quiet. Nobody can argue this. There are no sprawling NDA breaks. There are no large-scale screenshot leaks. There are occasional reviews where they let in outsiders who hold the universal consensus of "it's good but a little rough around the edges", but besides that, all significant content comes from either the source, or people who are publicly endorsed by the source. I don't think I've seen a single comment (not just on this website, but anywhere) which says "I'm in the beta and this thing sucks." In your standard MMO, you're going to get beta leaks and opinions every which way. We're not getting this with Darkfall.
Years ago, Taera typed in the ROC. And she put down "excessive negative comments". And because of that I have to sit here and decide what's excessive and what isn't. And I honestly don't think that expressing the opinion that Darkfall may be vaporware is unreasonable. The other staff have their own opinions. This is my opinion, and I moderate by it. I should not be moderating by my opinion. It's an incredibly stupid idea, even if I have been doing it for over a year. But I don't have a choice in the matter. The rule is subjective, so I have to moderate based on opinion. All I can do is try and be as fair as possible. Usually, that means being as liberal as possible.
There was something else Taera did as a CM. She strongly discouraged moderators from posting on their staff accounts. Why? Because if we post, the things we say are taken as gospel and representative of the entire staff. Even if it's just a lone moderator running his mouth, people will take their words and say "the website thinks this" or "the staff thinks that". Foul words from a lone moderator can reflect badly on an entire website. There's a reason why my signature is a disclaimer.
Let me ask you a question as one user to another.
The number one topic of discussion on the Darkfall forums is the legitimacy of the game.
What's the number two topic?
I guess first I would like to start out with the fact you fail to acknowledge that the "Vapor Trolls" are not simply breaking one rule but a few at once. The "lol vaporware" comments are made in threads where this comments have no relavence to the topic what so ever which if I am not mistaken goes against ..............
Topic Hijacking
Posting comments within a thread which severely disrupts the original conversation is prohibited at MMORPG.com.
Example: Asking whether a game has PvP in a thread about crafting materials found in a new expansion is Topic Hijacking.
At the same time it seems these type of comments violate this rule...................
Game Attacks
Unsubstantiated comments about specific or general games will be penalized in nearly the same way attacks against people will. The exception is that you can say mean things about games provided you back it up with reasons.
Example: "Game X sucks." is not a legitimate comment. "Game X sucks, because..." is acceptable.
And as far as the trolling rule itself read it carefuly please and look at the example MMORPG.com gives or whom ever made the ROC.............
Trolling
Posting excessive negative comments or baiting others to respond in a negative manner is considered trolling on the MMORPG.com forums.
For example: If there is one game that you did not enjoy, voicing your opinion is encouraged. Posting this opinion in every thread concerning that game to the point that it disrupts all other conversation is not tolerated.
Do you notice the example above? Those doing exactly what is in the example are not punished either. It's fine that it's left up to interpretation but when the interpretation seems to ignore the example given along with the rule I don't think that interpretation is working as intended lol.
Yes focus on the excessive negative comment part, ignore the baiting others to respond in a negative manner and ignore the example. When the same person posts a comment such as "DarkFall is Vaporware" in multiple threads the criteria for reprimand is met.
Can you explain why if it is merely hard to interpret the trolling rule (in which the example isn't even a cause for reprimand as is evident by the number of people doing exactly whats in the example) then when these posts are in direct violation of other rules at the same time there is still now repricussion? I mean if the defense to this is personal interpretation then surely the other violations commited at the same time would still warrent a penalty of some sort, am I correct? I will give an example.
Thread Topic = DarkFall Graphics
OP = So what do you guys think about the graphics.
1st reply = DarkFall is Vaporware.
Ok now in the above it may be the only time they ever called DarkFall Vaporware but it still constitutes trolling because it is made in an attempt to bait others in to responding in a negative manner. Now Second rule it violates "Game Attacks" seeing how this is an unsubstantiated claim with no "Because..." attached. And lastly it violates the rule of "Topic Hijacking" since this is the type of thing that continualy disrupts threads.
Honestly excessive negative comments can be left up to interpretation, but topic hijacking and game attacks are pretty clear cut as "You" said. Trolling is still applicable even if there isn't excessive negative comments because of the fact it had nothing to do with the Topic of the thread and could only be considerd a bait comment.
I am sorry I just do not see where any of the above is just because you and I interpret the rules differently.
Excessive negative opinions..
Of all the phrases in the English language, I think I really do hate that one more than any other.
Let me tell you a story.
I became a moderator around this time last year. I noticed a sticky by Taera in the general forums about recruiting for volunteer moderator positions. I checked the requirements, thought "what the hell", sent off an e-mail. My primary concern was learning about the MMO industry and getting a solid idea of the community service angles. For whatever god-forsaken reason, I was one of the three moderators out of that batch that she decided to recruit. (For the curious, the others were woopin and.. somebody else, maybe confetti?)
So I started learning. Very quickly, I noticed something about the rules. All the rules were fairly clear cut. "Personal attacks" are straightforward. RMT stuff is clear cut, too. Spam, sure. Advertising, referral links, all these things are simple and easy to understand and extremely objective. When one user slags off another, there is never any confusion.
But there was one rule that stood out: Trolling.
Trolling had this fun little definition in it. "Posting excessive negative opinions" would get you warned. This rule caused me more trouble than any other because it was vague as fuck. Excessive? Who's to decide who's excessive? Everybody has different lines, and one person's liberal paradise is another person's authoritarian dictatorship. So it's left up to personal interpretation. This is bad.
On a forum, it's like this: If you moderate too heavily, you get called a dictator. If you don't moderate heavily enough, you get called limp-wristed. Somewhere there is a middle point where you're not too brutal and you're not too limp. The problem with this fine middle point is that A: It's incredibly hard to nail down, and B: The two zones overlap. If you try to maintain the perfect balance, even if you succeed, you're going to get called out by both parties. You'll be called liberal and authoritarian. At the same time. Sometimes by the same people.
I complained to her about it, actually.
History sidetrack: Apparently when Laura(Taera) took over as CM, the place was pretty rough. Moderators were casual to the point of taking favourites, things were generally pretty anarchic from what she told me. When she came in, she revised the ROC and put in new moderation rules. She locked things down, and they became more stable. Let there be no mistake: Laura was a hard-ass. She was strict, she was cautious, and she knew what she was doing. As a moderator, when you made a mistake and she came to know about it, you came to know about it. It was probably her best trait. If it hadn't been for that, I probably would have made a lot more mistakes than I did. But I'm getting off the point.
For whatever reason, the "trolling" rule is what it is. I've complained about it, but it still sits there. So what am I left to do but interpret it? I try to stay liberal. I've always tried to stay liberal. For the most parts, the "excessive negative comments" bit can completely ignored and everything still functions. Its main function, if I had to guess, is to keep people from going into 10 threads at once and just spouting off "this game sucks" without any other comment. As far as excessive negative comments go, I have had to warn for it maybe .. 3 times in the last year. No bans, just warns. It happens once every few months, tops. It really is that rare.
Then there are the "vaportrolls".
What we have here is an odd case. Darkfall is a game which tends to keep quiet. Nobody can argue this. There are no sprawling NDA breaks. There are no large-scale screenshot leaks. There are occasional reviews where they let in outsiders who hold the universal consensus of "it's good but a little rough around the edges", but besides that, all significant content comes from either the source, or people who are publicly endorsed by the source. I don't think I've seen a single comment (not just on this website, but anywhere) which says "I'm in the beta and this thing sucks." In your standard MMO, you're going to get beta leaks and opinions every which way. We're not getting this with Darkfall.
Years ago, Taera typed in the ROC. And she put down "excessive negative comments". And because of that I have to sit here and decide what's excessive and what isn't. And I honestly don't think that expressing the opinion that Darkfall may be vaporware is unreasonable. The other staff have their own opinions. This is my opinion, and I moderate by it. I should not be moderating by my opinion. It's an incredibly stupid idea, even if I have been doing it for over a year. But I don't have a choice in the matter. The rule is subjective, so I have to moderate based on opinion. All I can do is try and be as fair as possible. Usually, that means being as liberal as possible.
There was something else Taera did as a CM. She strongly discouraged moderators from posting on their staff accounts. Why? Because if we post, the things we say are taken as gospel and representative of the entire staff. Even if it's just a lone moderator running his mouth, people will take their words and say "the website thinks this" or "the staff thinks that". Foul words from a lone moderator can reflect badly on an entire website. There's a reason why my signature is a disclaimer.
Let me ask you a question as one user to another.
The number one topic of discussion on the Darkfall forums is the legitimacy of the game.
What's the number two topic?
We will never find out about number 2 topic if you or someone else don't take care about number 1 topic ...
A community simply can't form if the cause of their existence is questioned every second post...
If number 1 would be out the way we would be maybe talking more about the amazing feature list of DF or about the comeback of the MMO roots, the sandbox full loot PvP style that founded MMO 's in general and in first place?
Independent small companys and their ideas and why they should be the standard and not the exception in MMO business..and how we can avoid the fat and ugly middleman that ruins our gameplay and bears the name $OE ..?
All that good topics to talk about ...
However thanks for the detailed personal background and history with the topic "Trolling" ...
At $OE board you (or MMORPG.com staff in general) seem don't have much problems with that and i will tell a example too ..
Back in the days the SWG game was a good and innovative one there existed only one forum ..the "general forum" beside the usual "clan" and "off- topic" etc. .
However after the horrid CU /NGE patches the complains about the crap state of the game was that intense that MMORPG tried to canalize that in form of a sticky named "The official i hate $OE thread" - not to mention that this thread easy collected a few dozen pages in no time- ...
However the strain of the majority of Star Wars fans NOT liking the new horrid patches was that strong that MMO did locked the forum and created 2 new forums with strict rules to protecting the few followers playing the NGE ..
time goes by and NGE of course flopped and the number of post in the NGE fanbois board was so low that MMORPG.com again saw the need to act , opened the old "General Forum" , merged it with the NGE fanbois one and APLLYING the rules from fanbois one to the GENERAL one ...
but still that wasn't enough ..because the old thread "the official we hate $OE thread" was in the way now ..it got removed and put in the vets forum ..not that many at least the majority hate $OE and what they did to SWG ...
So what someone can take from this is that several action being taken in favour of the current SWG and $OE ..what i want you to ask is...
Can you please make this for DarkFall and Aventurine too ? (make a board for Vapor doubters -to use a neutral word- and one for the real game and their supporters)
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Excessive negative opinions..
Of all the phrases in the English language, I think I really do hate that one more than any other.
Let me tell you a story.
I became a moderator around this time last year. I noticed a sticky by Taera in the general forums about recruiting for volunteer moderator positions. I checked the requirements, thought "what the hell", sent off an e-mail. My primary concern was learning about the MMO industry and getting a solid idea of the community service angles. For whatever god-forsaken reason, I was one of the three moderators out of that batch that she decided to recruit. (For the curious, the others were woopin and.. somebody else, maybe confetti?)
So I started learning. Very quickly, I noticed something about the rules. All the rules were fairly clear cut. "Personal attacks" are straightforward. RMT stuff is clear cut, too. Spam, sure. Advertising, referral links, all these things are simple and easy to understand and extremely objective. When one user slags off another, there is never any confusion.
But there was one rule that stood out: Trolling.
Trolling had this fun little definition in it. "Posting excessive negative opinions" would get you warned. This rule caused me more trouble than any other because it was vague as fuck. Excessive? Who's to decide who's excessive? Everybody has different lines, and one person's liberal paradise is another person's authoritarian dictatorship. So it's left up to personal interpretation. This is bad.
On a forum, it's like this: If you moderate too heavily, you get called a dictator. If you don't moderate heavily enough, you get called limp-wristed. Somewhere there is a middle point where you're not too brutal and you're not too limp. The problem with this fine middle point is that A: It's incredibly hard to nail down, and B: The two zones overlap. If you try to maintain the perfect balance, even if you succeed, you're going to get called out by both parties. You'll be called liberal and authoritarian. At the same time. Sometimes by the same people.
I complained to her about it, actually.
History sidetrack: Apparently when Laura(Taera) took over as CM, the place was pretty rough. Moderators were casual to the point of taking favourites, things were generally pretty anarchic from what she told me. When she came in, she revised the ROC and put in new moderation rules. She locked things down, and they became more stable. Let there be no mistake: Laura was a hard-ass. She was strict, she was cautious, and she knew what she was doing. As a moderator, when you made a mistake and she came to know about it, you came to know about it. It was probably her best trait. If it hadn't been for that, I probably would have made a lot more mistakes than I did. But I'm getting off the point.
For whatever reason, the "trolling" rule is what it is. I've complained about it, but it still sits there. So what am I left to do but interpret it? I try to stay liberal. I've always tried to stay liberal. For the most parts, the "excessive negative comments" bit can completely ignored and everything still functions. Its main function, if I had to guess, is to keep people from going into 10 threads at once and just spouting off "this game sucks" without any other comment. As far as excessive negative comments go, I have had to warn for it maybe .. 3 times in the last year. No bans, just warns. It happens once every few months, tops. It really is that rare.
Then there are the "vaportrolls".
What we have here is an odd case. Darkfall is a game which tends to keep quiet. Nobody can argue this. There are no sprawling NDA breaks. There are no large-scale screenshot leaks. There are occasional reviews where they let in outsiders who hold the universal consensus of "it's good but a little rough around the edges", but besides that, all significant content comes from either the source, or people who are publicly endorsed by the source. I don't think I've seen a single comment (not just on this website, but anywhere) which says "I'm in the beta and this thing sucks." In your standard MMO, you're going to get beta leaks and opinions every which way. We're not getting this with Darkfall.
Years ago, Taera typed in the ROC. And she put down "excessive negative comments". And because of that I have to sit here and decide what's excessive and what isn't. And I honestly don't think that expressing the opinion that Darkfall may be vaporware is unreasonable. The other staff have their own opinions. This is my opinion, and I moderate by it. I should not be moderating by my opinion. It's an incredibly stupid idea, even if I have been doing it for over a year. But I don't have a choice in the matter. The rule is subjective, so I have to moderate based on opinion. All I can do is try and be as fair as possible. Usually, that means being as liberal as possible.
There was something else Taera did as a CM. She strongly discouraged moderators from posting on their staff accounts. Why? Because if we post, the things we say are taken as gospel and representative of the entire staff. Even if it's just a lone moderator running his mouth, people will take their words and say "the website thinks this" or "the staff thinks that". Foul words from a lone moderator can reflect badly on an entire website. There's a reason why my signature is a disclaimer.
Let me ask you a question as one user to another.
The number one topic of discussion on the Darkfall forums is the legitimacy of the game.
What's the number two topic?
We will never find out about number 2 topic if you or someone else don't take care about number 1 topic ...
A community simply can't form if the cause of their existence is questioned every second post...
If number 1 would be out the way we would be maybe talking more about the amazing feature list of DF or about the comeback of the MMO roots, the sandbox full loot PvP style that founded MMO 's in general and in first place?
Independent small companys and their ideas and why they should be the standard and not the exception in MMO business..and how we can avoid the fat and ugly middleman that ruins our gameplay and bears the name $OE ..?
All that good topics to talk about ...
However thanks for the detailed personal background and history with the topic "Trolling" ...
At $OE board you (or MMORPG.com staff in general) seem don't have much problems with that and i will tell a example too ..
Back in the days the SWG game was a good and innovative one there existed only one forum ..the "general forum" beside the usual "clan" and "off- topic" etc. .
However after the horrid CU /NGE patches the complains about the crap state of the game was that intense that MMORPG tried to canalize that in form of a sticky named "The official i hate $OE thread" - not to mention that this thread easy collected a few dozen pages in no time- ...
However the strain of the majority of Star Wars fans NOT liking the new horrid patches was that strong that MMO did locked the forum and created 2 new forums with strict rules to protecting the few followers playing the NGE ..
time goes by and NGE of course flopped and the number of post in the NGE fanbois board was so low that MMORPG.com again saw the need to act , opened the old "General Forum" , merged it with the NGE fanbois one and APLLYING the rules from fanbois one to the GENERAL one ...
but still that wasn't enough ..because the old thread "the official we hate $OE thread" was in the way now ..it got removed and put in the vets forum ..not that many at least the majority hate $OE and what they did to SWG ...
So what someone can take from this is that several action being taken in favour of the current SWG and $OE ..what i want you to ask is...
Can you please make this for DarkFall and Aventurine too ? (make a board for Vapor doubters -to use a neutral word- and one for the real game and their supporters)
Actualy #2 is probably Graphics or mechanics unless there's a new update, but these topics are usualy hijacked and normal discussion tends to cease and replaced with flame wars where one side is reffered to as Trolls the other Fanboi's. If this is doubted look through the threads and it's pretty easy to see where they get off track. Thread would start out talking about Siege Weapons and at some point the artisitic style of DarkFall is questioned. Then it gets to a point where it is a war about the graphics being from the 90's or being on par with AoC and of course the standard Vaporware remarks are thrown in.
I mean even in this thread the beta is Vaporware comment seems to have taken over vs. what the intent of the thread was. It was about the NDA and MMORPG's stance on it, yet the Vapor comments in regard to the Beta and the demanding of proof in the form of the official NDA posted here in which the moderator is now participating in. There was a stance and then suddenly MMORPG.com has no stance without proof there is a beta lol.
Oh god I'd hate to see that thing in a quote pyramid, so I'll condense it a bit and just respond directly.
GrayGhost:
In regards to topic hijacking: Yeah, point. But it's still tricky. Topics get intertwined, and you have to allow some flexibility. It'll often be the case that a topic won't jump to one other with a crack, it'll happen incredibly gradually, and by the time it's that far off topic there's no clear starting point and people have actually made some decent points. If it gets that far off topic though, the thread usually gets locked. Also, appreciate that Darkfall's forums are one of the most active forums on the site, and often a thread will get ten posts off topic before a moderator even gets around to it.
In regards to game attacks.. Minor stuff like "lol vaporware" or "shitsux" tends get deleted, but it doesn't take much to legitimize a comment. The majority of vaporware arguments are long, drawn out, wordy, and garnished with personal attacks. There are very few small and blatant infractions. In addition, slight oddity.. we have a "manual" of sorts; There is no entry in that manual in regards to game attacks. No definitions, no examples. Go figure.
When we receive a report, there are three ways to deal with it: delete it, edit it, leave it alone. Deleting it is often out of the question because there's good stuff in it. Editing it is possible and gets done, but half the time there are no easy-to-remove chunks, and all the good is wormed in with the bad.
And of course, sometimes stuff falls through the cracks. It happens.
All I'm saying is that while there are many ways to break the rules, trolling itself is a more unique case than people give it credit for.
Raiden:
The reason I asked the question "what's the second topic" is because really? There is no second topic. All discussion on the Darkfall forums revolve around if the game really exists or not. Occasionally there are idle discussions about the quality of the graphics, but in the end, every single topic comes down to "does this game actually exist or not?" If you took out that, I hate to say it, but there probably wouldn't be much of a forum left. As cynical as it sounds, what else would there be to discuss? But then I suppose it's circular; After all, the vaporware arguments are all just as stale as any non-vapor discussion would be. Every time there's an update it's the same thing: Does this prove Darkfall exists? If not, go into long-winded reasons as to why it doesn't prove anything. There has yet to be a "yes it exists" thing, so when that happens, we'll see.
As for the vet forums.. the vet forums are a unique case, as are the Darkfall forums, really. The veteran refuge was created because there was a massive devide in an already existing playerbase. Darkfall does not exist publicly yet. There is no playerbase to divide. It's just a big group of people speculating. The fact that the key topic of speculation is if the game exists or not says more about the developers than it does about the speculators. And it'll stay that way until the developers do something to change that. That's just the way it is. Besides, how would a vaporware forum work? People stand around discussing how something doesn't exist and agreeing with each other?
Sorry if I missed any specific questions.
isnt it hypocrite if u dont want ppl making "excessive negative comments" while you, as a swg vet, display the same comments in the swg forums?
We all are at some point, I did the same on AoC forums. I tried to remain objective but could no longer do so. Once I reached the point where even I saw I was being excessively negative I left the AoC forums on MMORPG.com. The problem is while Darth may have broke the rules, it was the moderators job to reprimand him. If people are not reprimanded then there is no point in having said rules and people will continue to do such things as is evident in the DarkFall forums. If I break the rules then by all means warn me and delete my post, it has happend to me a few times, if it's a mistake or simple error of judgement the warning and deletion will be enough for it not to happen again. If it happens again and again then a harsher penalty is in order. Without that reprimand then the individual comminting the violation can only see the action as acceptable here. Blame remains with moderation, saying it should be ok here because such and such is doing it on another forum is not an excuse for it to be happening here. It should be punished on both but the problem is , it is not.
In other words as long as DarthRaiden willing excepts the reprecussions for doing so on another part of the forums then he is not being hypocriticle when expecting others to be reprimanded for commiting the same violation on this forum.
In other words your confusing the action of regular community members with the inaction of forum moderators that should have responded in both instances.
there is a difference with claiming DF to be vaporware and trashing every SOE related game. considering DFs history i fully understand why people are skeptical. granted some of the "vaportrolls" are over-the-top but whats worse? people bashing the NGE that happend YEARS ago (and it doesnt matter if things improved, they will still trash it) or people who are skeptical of DF releasing? the game that is scheduled for 2008 is still a big mystery! every average game has LOTS of ingame vids/screens/features&interviews on mmo sites but this game has 1 vid, just 1! and some screens, of which the first ones with a UI have been released yesterday. i think that the DF fans are overreacting by praising the game for one vid and some screens. the ideas sound nice but no1, but 2 unknown italians, knows what the game plays like. its also questionable if a relatively small company like aventurine can run a highly anticipated mmo and provide the needed customer service.
sry for the lack of paragraphs
MMOs currently playing: -
About to play: Lord of the Rings Online
Played: Anarchy Online (alltime favorite) and lots of f2p titles (honorable mentions: 9Dragons, Martial Heroes, Dekaron, Atlantica Online)
isnt it hypocrite if u dont want ppl making "excessive negative comments" while you, as a swg vet, display the same comments in the swg forums?
We all are at some point, I did the same on AoC forums. I tried to remain objective but could no longer do so. Once I reached the point where even I saw I was being excessively negative I left the AoC forums on MMORPG.com. The problem is while Darth may have broke the rules, it was the moderators job to reprimand him. If people are not reprimanded then there is no point in having said rules and people will continue to do such things as is evident in the DarkFall forums. If I break the rules then by all means warn me and delete my post, it has happend to me a few times, if it's a mistake or simple error of judgement the warning and deletion will be enough for it not to happen again. If it happens again and again then a harsher penalty is in order. Without that reprimand then the individual comminting the violation can only see the action as acceptable here. Blame remains with moderation, saying it should be ok here because such and such is doing it on another forum is not an excuse for it to be happening here. It should be punished on both but the problem is , it is not.
In other words as long as DarthRaiden willing excepts the reprecussions for doing so on another part of the forums then he is not being hypocriticle when expecting others to be reprimanded for commiting the same violation on this forum.
In other words your confusing the action of regular community members with the inaction of forum moderators that should have responded in both instances.
there is a difference with claiming DF to be vaporware and trashing every SOE related game. considering DFs history i fully understand why people are skeptical. granted some of the "vaportrolls" are over-the-top but whats worse? people bashing the NGE that happend YEARS ago (and it doesnt matter if things improved, they will still trash it) or people who are skeptical of DF releasing? the game that is scheduled for 2008 is still a big mystery! every average game has LOTS of ingame vids/screens/features&interviews on mmo sites but this game has 1 vid, just 1! and some screens, of which the first ones with a UI have been released yesterday. i think that the DF fans are overreacting by praising the game for one vid and some screens. the ideas sound nice but no1, but 2 unknown italians, knows what the game plays like. its also questionable if a relatively small company like aventurine can run a highly anticipated mmo and provide the needed customer service.
sry for the lack of paragraphs
Actualy both are just as bad if they are made in threads on other topics. Fans themselve's are skeptical of Aventurine doing all that it has said it will do with DarkFall, so the skeptical side of it isn't the problem. The problem comes into play with the fact that these comments are made in threads that have actual discussion going on surrounding a completely different topic which is against the ROC. So combine the fact there are a few continuosly breaking the ROC and trolling in threads with the lack of moderation it becomes an issue. If these comments were refrained to threads concerning that topic then it wouldn't bother me. But they are not and they are not moderated.
Again your saying it's ok the moderators aren't doing there job on this forum because there not doing it on another. As the saying goes 2 wrongs don't make a right.
That is a very concise elucidation on the situation for the last 5 years.
There is no other topic of debate for many people (myself included) until that legitimacy is substantiated beyond reasonable doubt.
The fact that this is the only real topic of debate shows it has not been resolved satisfactorily, its self evident, and undeniable.
Aventurine is to blame for this entire situation, and they are the only ones that can rectify it.
The most recent attempt by them to do so shows they have still not managed to yet.
At least you admit to doing a lousy job here..
Why don't you learn to read posts you're replying to before using your keyboard?
And you've always seemed to have a personal dislike for this site, so why are you even here bothering? Go to Forumfall or that unknown Italian website and be happy?
That is a very concise elucidation on the situation for the last 5 years.
There is no other topic of debate for many people (myself included) until that legitimacy is substantiated beyond reasonable doubt.
The fact that this is the only real topic of debate shows it has not been resolved satisfactorily, its self evident, and undeniable.
Aventurine is to blame for this entire situation, and they are the only ones that can rectify it.
The most recent attempt by them to do so shows they have still not managed to yet.
lol the problem is your in a constant state of denial. Every single criteria you and others have set for the game to be considerd real short of launch has been met and you are still not satisfied. Explanation for this... simple until launch you won't be satisfied. So with that said is there a reason to continuosly try and derail and hijack threads on other subjects to where you attempt to force discussion of a subject where you refuse to accept evidence you, yourself have asked for?
So lets look at the facts.......... They have a publisher, you deny it's a real game. They have a server host, you deny it's a real game. You say pssh no one outside of Aventurine has played it so it can't be real, Yellow Beard and a few others within the community have played and reported on there experience this of course is regarded as a fabrication by you and others. Ok so ADW takes place, this is shoved aside and regarded as some small time convention..... ok. In game footage vid... of course you guys decide it's fabricated and that all those players are simply bots, ok. Information on DarkFall actual airs on a major news network in Greece, it's regarded as some small time country and small time news so irrellavent.... ok. Many other things to support that it is real but meh you guys love your conspiracy theory lol so you continue and say you won't believe it is real until someone reputable from the game media community gets to play and review it.......... well even that criteria has been met now and guess what.... it still isn't enough lol.
Sorry the whole DarkFall isn't real theory is nothing more than a conspiracy theory now. At one point it actualy did have collaberating evidence. That is no longer the case. The only theory that actualy has anything backing it up at this point is that the game is in fact a real thing.
Again I actualy don't care what you guys believe all I ask is that you refrain from continuing to disrupt other threads. If you wish to discuss the legitamacy of DarkFall then make a thread about it and quit hijacking other threads. Start acting a bit mature and respecting others. Really it isn't much to ask.
At least you admit to doing a lousy job here..
Why don't you learn to read posts you're replying to before using your keyboard?
And you've always seemed to have a personal dislike for this site, so why are you even here bothering? Go to Forumfall or that unknown Italian website and be happy?
This site is biased towards Aventurine thats for sure, the game is being hated and even treated not fair by moderators like we see here in this discussion..
Because you are one of the haters you are part of this problem and i like to ask you to leave Darkfall in peace and give people a fair chance to have nice discussions without you interupting this with Aventurine and DarkFall hate posts..(and everyone else please)
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
ahhh no wonder the guy that told me he was in beta got booted off DF forums the other day
~griffin~
GrayGhost79 your straw man and Ad hominem arguments do not substantiate the legitimacy of this game.
Vpellen,
I read through most of the conversation between you and raiden, and i can definitely appreciate where you are comming from in regards to the defition of "trolling" and "excessive" etc.
I think the main concern is that there are certain posters who consistently make new threads and posts that are designed to cause trouble. They aren't giving opinions and are simply trying to bait people.
There are fans of DF who behave just as badly, and they too are never dealt with.
I understand that with the ammount of traffic on the site, and the number of posters who go back and forth in a hot topic forum like the DF forum, its tough to identify the real trouble makers. But if you were to look at some of the post histories of these people it is obvious what they are here for.
I guess a lot of fans and skeptics would like to see a little more mature moderation (im not calling you immature) in the sense that you put the red tape aside and identify the people who are just not here with good intentions. And this goes for both fans and haters. When you see someone start thread after thread with the same topic it gets obvious and nothing is done about them.
I am definitely someone who is on this forum a good deal, and there are clearly a number of posters who are ruining this forum through their actions. How you have not perma banned someone like Tenspotting is beyond me. I think even the most skeptical DF posters would agree that he and others just need to go.
---sig---
Click this for lulz: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/173737/page/6
cant have it one way tho see if the people who do nothing but post the omg darkfall blows stuff then you should have to give equal treatment to the ones who spam nothing but omg darkfall rules stuff
honestly how mant times in the last 2 days have you changed that overly obnoxious sig of yours?
so remember if you want to call for harsher moderation it has to cover both sides of the coin
If you take the time to read my post, youll see that I clearly mention that there are fans that behave just as badly. Don't be so quick to judge, read slowly.
And with my sig....i had a normal sized sig that was reported because it was "offensive" because it had a girl in a bikini on it. Which is ridicuous because the front page has a 1/2 naked female from AoC on it, but thats besides the point.
Anyways after some exchange of messages with the staff, of what would be "acceptable" in terms of offensiveness, I ended up with the old tombstone. If you want to blame anyone for the sig changes, you can blame the people who reported it just for the sake of reporting someone who has a different opinion as them. How someone can choose to come to a site that has pictures of women in armor that is even less revealing that also shows them cutting peoples heads off with full blood....but yet find a woman in a bikini top offensive is just ridiculous.
But yea main point is that if you read my message above youll see that I mention that both fanbois and trolls need to be dealt with more harshly. I think you just read it a little too fast. I have reported fanbois for excessive nonsense as well.
---sig---
Click this for lulz: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/173737/page/6
okay i am sorry about the sig then i really thought you were changing it just to be annoying
we can agree then that this forum is kinda out of control and its very hard to have a discussion about the game
honesly i'm sure there are real questions and real answers about this game but i fear this just isnt the place to find out
If you take the time to read my post, youll see that I clearly mention that there are fans that behave just as badly. Don't be so quick to judge, read slowly.
And with my sig....i had a normal sized sig that was reported because it was "offensive" because it had a girl in a bikini on it. Which is ridicuous because the front page has a 1/2 naked female from AoC on it, but thats besides the point.
Anyways after some exchange of messages with the staff, of what would be "acceptable" in terms of offensiveness, I ended up with the old tombstone. If you want to blame anyone for the sig changes, you can blame the people who reported it just for the sake of reporting someone who has a different opinion as them. How someone can choose to come to a site that has pictures of women in armor that is even less revealing that also shows them cutting peoples heads off with full blood....but yet find a woman in a bikini top offensive is just ridiculous.
But yea main point is that if you read my message above youll see that I mention that both fanbois and trolls need to be dealt with more harshly. I think you just read it a little too fast. I have reported fanbois for excessive nonsense as well.
what the .... who would report that bikini sig. that was a sweet sig. Hell of alot better than that evolution one. I cannot figure out for the life of me as to why Ameicans general population is so scared of the female body. Other countries are not half as censored as the US is. bah I give up. Some people take posts way to personal, and out to get the person on the other side of the debate.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
I know!
After I made the sig, Shannia, an outspoken DF skeptic, complimented me on the sig. I made it so it would be something both sides of the argument would enjoy!
I never saw Zorvan's sig that he mentions in his sig now...but apparently it was a cheerleader of some kind and it was reported on the AoC forums. AoC...a game that was hyped up about its nudity. It is pretty sad.
---sig---
Click this for lulz: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/173737/page/6
I know polar you have made it clear that even if the game walked up to you on the street and beat you down stole your wallet you would still deny it even has a remote possibility to be real lol. I am not worried about what you think I was just stating facts in a debate I was having with someone that was worth debating with.
lol Honestly I would be happy if they simply started upholding the ROC they currently have. Not realy asking for harsher moderation just that they actualy start lol. I mean Tenspotting doesn't have anything happen to him till long after the discussion is destroyed usualy. Not asking for harsher moderation just for them to start upholding the ROC they put in place lol. Doesn't seem like a lot does it. But VPellen has explained why moderators can't moderate DarkFall forums, apparently if we didn't have the trolls there wouldn't be anything to discuss. I guess the other DF forums on other sites are just my hallucination lol then again it could be that those mods actualy uphold there ROC with out making excuses why it would be bad if they did or why they can't.
lol Honestly I would be happy if they simply started upholding the ROC they currently have. Not realy asking for harsher moderation just that they actualy start lol. I mean Tenspotting doesn't have anything happen to him till long after the discussion is destroyed usualy. Not asking for harsher moderation just for them to start upholding the ROC they put in place lol. Doesn't seem like a lot does it. But VPellen has explained why moderators can't moderate DarkFall forums, apparently if we didn't have the trolls there wouldn't be anything to discuss. I guess the other DF forums on other sites are just my hallucination lol then again it could be that those mods actualy uphold there ROC with out making excuses why it would be bad if they did or why they can't.
Yea they need to take a lesson from the modeartion over at the official boards. Where the majority of threads that get locked/removed are actually those that are made by fanbois. Only moderation that I have seen done better is on the twoplustwo.com forums.
However for having such a small staff here, the mods at mmorpg.com actually do an amazing job. They have a lot of forums to cover and they can't catch everything. My only problem is that when they catch someone like tenspotting, who even had an entire thread with fans and skeptics in it calling him out, and they do nothing but slap him on the wrist it is frustrating.
---sig---
Click this for lulz: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/173737/page/6
I know polar you have made it clear that even if the game walked up to you on the street and beat you down stole your wallet you would still deny it even has a remote possibility to be real lol. I am not worried about what you think I was just stating facts in a debate I was having with someone that was worth debating with.
You are worried about what I think or what anyone else might think because you are here attempting to defend this games legitimacy, to deny it is silly, its self evident by your posts.
Straw man and Ad hominem arguments are not legitimate forms of debate, so you are resorting to illegitimate forms of debate, hardly a good foundation when attempting to prove the legitimacy of something.
Your “facts” do not substantiate this games legitimacy beyond reasonable doubt.
If they did then there would be no grounds to reasonably question the legitimacy of this game.
And people would not of been questioning the legitimacy of this game for the last 5 years, nor would they continue to do so.
Rather silly to deny this when the first sentence in the latest “review” of this game a few weeks from its official release date reads:
“Vaporware? Not at all!”
Let me ask you a simple question:
Do you still believe open beta will start and finish by early December and that the game will definitely launch in 2008 as Aventurine have stated it will?
Because If you don’t , then you yourself are questioning the legitimacy of this game.
And if these things do not happen, it will only further question the legitimacy of this game.