I guess the US and Canadian lottery commissions need to get on Topps and Fleers ass then. Oh..and Wizards of the Coast....All of these companies have been exploiting the "rare" card trap...both on children and adults for a long while now. You're never guaranteed a rookie or a hologram or foil or Blackspawn of the Moors when you buy a pack of their cards. It's usually the motivator for purchase though and if you get one .....you can charge a butt-load of cash for it. Is this gambling?
You're talking about a function of the card game that rewards you with other functions of the card game, as opposed to using a function of the card game to reward someone with something totally unrelated.
It's like going to a carnival and wanting to ride the carousel, but you have to win a ticket playing the milk bottles game first. It's obvious that it's just a scam. However, nobody is going to complain if they are giving away stuffed animals, because stuffed animals aren't required to enjoy the rest of the carnival.
People wanting to play SWG shouldn't be punished for not wanting to pay for the TCG. People who play the TCG anyways aren't going to care either way, since the rewards are just a bonus.
Actually...I remember other prizes being offered in various trading card packs...this was the 80's though so i'll be damned if i remember ...lol. Imo....the loot cards are just like the stuffed animals at the carnival. It may seem cool to have one...but I don't need it to enjoy the game. That's why I can't quite see the great uproar over an issue that basically involves an act of freewill.
I like reading your posts on this issue. You seem to really think about the situation, and ask honest questions.
I think the uproar is related to a number of factors, and I'd like to hear your thoughts on them.
1. Some of the loot cards give you advantages in combat or the fastest vehicle in the game. Proposed new loot goes further in this direction with a stronger buff. So, to be competitive in a game you are already paying a subscription for, you now have to also gamble--or patiently wait each month to see if you receive the rare loot you will need to keep up. Other games have RMT items, but (a) they do not affect whether or not you can compete, and (b) you do not have to gamble real cash trying to get them.
2. The loot items being introduced into the game via a gambling mechanism used to be available as part of content updates that you received for your subscription payment. New vehicles or schematics would be introduced as content updates, and this was good value. Also, new schematics promoted player interaction and an exchange of ingame currency. Now, people do not interact with each other, or spend fake money. They interact with the Sony online store and spend real money for just a random chance to get a desired item.
3. Gambling real money on the internet for the chance of winning a rewarding product or service happens all the time, and I'm fine with that, as are many others. However, in these online games, players have to be adults, they are aware of the odds, the odds are verified by an independent party, and the odds cannot be manipulated in favour of the "house" outside of the player's awareness. In the case of SOE's game of chance, it is marketted to people of all ages, players are not aware of the odds, the odds are not independently verified, and the odds can be changed at the "house's" sole discretion, outside of the awareness of the player.
Do these concerns make sense?
I think there would be much less of an uproar if SOE considered a different path in the way it relates to its players. Here are some things to consider.
1. RMT items could have been introduced that were not needed to enhance gameplay (e.g. travel speed or combat abilities).
2. RMT items could have been sold to players in a straightforward manner, rather than have them gamble for them with real cash.
3. Since SWG is a subscription based game, they could just include new vehicles and/or buffs as part of chapter updates or veteran rewards. They have done this in the past, and people have felt that this was good value for their subscription dollars. Now paying a subscription fee isn't enough to keep up. You have to get a lucky monthly loot drop (which is unlikely) or you have to gamble with real cash, and still probably lose.
All of the strategies I've listed are much more player-friendly than the course SOE chose. In fact, it would appear that they have taken the least player-friendly approach to providing an MMO possible. In light of this, I think current players are right to ask questions and voice complaints.
Did I lose alot of money to get a loot card? Actually, no.
As I started, my first five free booster packs contained a Jawa Vendor/Black Corset Dress/ and a Housing Cleaning Kit.
Second free set of packs, I recieved a Gungan Vendor.
Third Free packs I got an large indoor fountain.
Now, that aside I spend about $15.00USD for 5 packs about every other week. So, we'll take about two months. So, that's about $150.000USD total and I managed to get a few things here and there. hell, I even got that elusive Sith-Speeder.
Was it a gamble? Well, that depends. I bought the cards to play the game not to attain loot cards. In which, like some have stated, is just a bonus. What I do with them? I traded or sold them and with whatever I got I gave away to friends or guildies who needed help with their Collection venure.
The gamble that everyone argues about is the mind set forth by SOE. Is it a money making scam? Probably. Do I care? No.
The gambling element in the SWG:TCG is that if you're only paying to acquire loot cards, that's the gamble in of itself.
I'm not against anyone at this point because both sides are right. It's up to the legal system to decide what it is or what it is not.
The points through the entire thread is about how the TCG ruin the game. Unfortunately, it did not. It was an uproar about what the community asked for in a certain length of time, only to receive it through a payment method. Such as new vehicles. Engineers of the game went berserk.
Buff items. However, the only thing that came out was the for one hour you get a +%20 experience point increase.
Decorations and such are the primary loot bag.
To that guy who's friend ruined a paycheck to try and get a Sith Speeder, I feel for. Seriously, that's a problem if you spent nearly $500 to get one. However, what people fail to realize that you can set up a trade/or sales requesting one.
Again, I see no reason why to be upset about something that has no real issue with real life.
It only becomes a real life debacle if you let it. Again, it is your choice to buy or to get mad, or to stand defensive.
Because I would like people to try and say something about those free MMOs with a Cash Shop place. In which you must spend real money to get store points to purchase a virtual item.
Someone spending their paycheck to obtain a Sith Speeder in a dead Star Wars game is about the most pathetic thing I have ever heard of in my life... That dude needs to seek help, immediately.
It is really not gambling, at least in my country. Law says that gambling is when participant use his/her money to get prize in money. It is not lottery as well because those packs(or whatever, i really havent bought them and dont play game) isnt ticket. No there is no wrong interpretation or something. It clearly says that.
For example i remember Digimon, yugioh and other cards selling all around world in simple shops. So it is legal and stop crying because some idiots bought them and lost money with hope to find specific thing.
It is really not gambling, at least in my country. Law says that gambling is when participant use his/her money to get prize in money. It is not lottery as well because those packs(or whatever, i really havent bought them and dont play game) isnt ticket. No there is no wrong interpretation or something. It clearly says that. For example i remember Digimon, yugioh and other cards selling all around world in simple shops. So it is legal and stop crying because some idiots bought them and lost money with hope to find specific thing.
No, its not legal because you say so or because it is legal in Lithuania. Sorry
It is really not gambling, at least in my country. Law says that gambling is when participant use his/her money to get prize in money. It is not lottery as well because those packs(or whatever, i really havent bought them and dont play game) isnt ticket. No there is no wrong interpretation or something. It clearly says that. For example i remember Digimon, yugioh and other cards selling all around world in simple shops. So it is legal and stop crying because some idiots bought them and lost money with hope to find specific thing.
No, its not legal because you say so or because it is legal in Lithuania. Sorry
S
So I googled internet gambling laws in the U.S. and this is what I found. Here's a definition of internet gambling from the Unlawful Internet Gambling Act (2006): "the purchase of a chance to win a lottery or other prize the award of which is predominantly subject to chance."
Does this seem to fit the loot cards? Yes, I believe it does. I did find an exception for online games, so let's see if it applies to SWG. Here's the exception: "participation in online games with no pay-to-play aspect and where the prizes are limited to free play." Does SWG have a pay to play aspect? You betcha. Are the prizes in the game of chance limited to free play? Absolutely not. In other words, SWG's loot card lottery does not fit the criteria for exception, at all.
Sharky, I think this is all you need to bring to the attention of the authorities on behalf of your friend that got burned. Best wishes.
By the way, this goes for anyone that got burned by what appears to be illegal gambling on the part of SOE. Probably the best people to talk to in the U.S. would be the state gambling commissions. There's also a complaint site for the FBI regarding internet crime. If you lost a whack of cash to this online gambling scheme, feel free to use it.
I just checked jurisdictional matters regarding online gambling. It's a complicated read, depending on how money changes hands. The Federal Trade Commission has jurisdiction over most if not all forms of online games of chance. The link to discuss this with them is here:
It is really not gambling, at least in my country. Law says that gambling is when participant use his/her money to get prize in money. It is not lottery as well because those packs(or whatever, i really havent bought them and dont play game) isnt ticket. No there is no wrong interpretation or something. It clearly says that. For example i remember Digimon, yugioh and other cards selling all around world in simple shops. So it is legal and stop crying because some idiots bought them and lost money with hope to find specific thing.
No, its not legal because you say so or because it is legal in Lithuania. Sorry
S
So I googled internet gambling laws in the U.S. and this is what I found. Here's a definition of internet gambling from the Unlawful Internet Gambling Act (2006): "the purchase of a chance to win a lottery or other prize the award of which is predominantly subject to chance."
Does this seem to fit the loot cards? Yes, I believe it does. I did find an exception for online games, so let's see if it applies to SWG. Here's the exception: "participation in online games with no pay-to-play aspect and where the prizes are limited to free play." Does SWG have a pay to play aspect? You betcha. Are the prizes in the game of chance limited to free play? Absolutely not. In other words, SWG's loot card lottery does not fit the criteria for exception, at all.
Sharky, I think this is all you need to bring to the attention of the authorities on behalf of your friend that got burned. Best wishes.
By the way, this goes for anyone that got burned by what appears to be illegal gambling on the part of SOE. Probably the best people to talk to in the U.S. would be the state gambling commissions. There's also a complaint site for the FBI regarding internet crime. If you lost a whack of cash to this online gambling scheme, feel free to use it.
I just checked jurisdictional matters regarding online gambling. It's a complicated read, depending on how money changes hands. The Federal Trade Commission has jurisdiction over most if not all forms of online games of chance. The link to discuss this with them is here:
except that in a real lottery theres a chance u wont win, in SWG u always win a prize.
edit: if this is illegal then so are the flippos or the pokemon trade cards or all that crap
MMOs currently playing: - About to play: Lord of the Rings Online Played: Anarchy Online (alltime favorite) and lots of f2p titles (honorable mentions: 9Dragons, Martial Heroes, Dekaron, Atlantica Online)
Why didn't people complain about this when Champions of Norrath was released? It's the same system. If people really cared about others losing money, I would have figured that there would have been some big movement by now. This still all comes back to the NGE and disenfranchised MMO players not wanting SOE to make money off of people.
except that in a real lottery theres a chance u wont win, in SWG u always win a prize.
Really? So all I have to do is buy ONE "pack" and I get the loot I wanted?
Unless that's true then you ARE gambling by buying.
Seems to me SOE is running an illegal gambling operation here and should be turned over to the authorities.
no u wont get everything u want, but its not the same as gambling. see my flippos example
edit: my bad, its not the same as ILLEGAL gambling, i agree it is gambling in a way
MMOs currently playing: - About to play: Lord of the Rings Online Played: Anarchy Online (alltime favorite) and lots of f2p titles (honorable mentions: 9Dragons, Martial Heroes, Dekaron, Atlantica Online)
Why didn't people complain about this when Champions of Norrath was released? It's the same system. If people really cared about others losing money, I would have figured that there would have been some big movement by now. This still all comes back to the NGE and disenfranchised MMO players not wanting SOE to make money off of people.
Yep. I don't want SOE to make a dime. I want the company to fold.
But that still doesn't change things if they are doing something illegal.
except that in a real lottery theres a chance u wont win, in SWG u always win a prize.
What prize do you speak of?
if im correct u always get a card aka the prize.
MMOs currently playing: - About to play: Lord of the Rings Online Played: Anarchy Online (alltime favorite) and lots of f2p titles (honorable mentions: 9Dragons, Martial Heroes, Dekaron, Atlantica Online)
except that in a real lottery theres a chance u wont win, in SWG u always win a prize.
What prize do you speak of?
if im correct u always get a card aka the prize.
What are the odds of getting a loot card with each pack? Where is that posted?
i have no idea, i dont play SWG or any sony game )
but if this is illegal then so are all the card games, im sure some cards are very rare and ofc they are so for one reason, to get more money out it. some people go very far for it but hey im sure they know what they are doing if they got lots of money. they earned it so they can spend it the way they want
MMOs currently playing: - About to play: Lord of the Rings Online Played: Anarchy Online (alltime favorite) and lots of f2p titles (honorable mentions: 9Dragons, Martial Heroes, Dekaron, Atlantica Online)
i have no idea, i dont play SWG or any sony game )
but if this is illegal then so are all the card games, im sure some cards are very rare and ofc they are so for one reason, to get more money out it. some people go very far for it but hey im sure they know what they are doing if they got lots of money. they earned it so they can spend it the way they want
This isn't a card game.. it isn't even declared as gambling..so someone has to check legality.. Does they mention in ToS that SWG is about gambling ? How they prevent immature people getting addicted? all that stuff ..
Gambling is illegal in many countries. But even fi it is allowed in some..it is very questionable and unethical ..but we used to this company being immoral ..
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
It is really not gambling, at least in my country. Law says that gambling is when participant use his/her money to get prize in money. It is not lottery as well because those packs(or whatever, i really havent bought them and dont play game) isnt ticket. No there is no wrong interpretation or something. It clearly says that. For example i remember Digimon, yugioh and other cards selling all around world in simple shops. So it is legal and stop crying because some idiots bought them and lost money with hope to find specific thing.
No, its not legal because you say so or because it is legal in Lithuania. Sorry
S
So I googled internet gambling laws in the U.S. and this is what I found. Here's a definition of internet gambling from the Unlawful Internet Gambling Act (2006): "the purchase of a chance to win a lottery or other prize the award of which is predominantly subject to chance."
Does this seem to fit the loot cards? Yes, I believe it does. I did find an exception for online games, so let's see if it applies to SWG. Here's the exception: "participation in online games with no pay-to-play aspect and where the prizes are limited to free play." Does SWG have a pay to play aspect? You betcha. Are the prizes in the game of chance limited to free play? Absolutely not. In other words, SWG's loot card lottery does not fit the criteria for exception, at all.
Sharky, I think this is all you need to bring to the attention of the authorities on behalf of your friend that got burned. Best wishes.
By the way, this goes for anyone that got burned by what appears to be illegal gambling on the part of SOE. Probably the best people to talk to in the U.S. would be the state gambling commissions. There's also a complaint site for the FBI regarding internet crime. If you lost a whack of cash to this online gambling scheme, feel free to use it.
I just checked jurisdictional matters regarding online gambling. It's a complicated read, depending on how money changes hands. The Federal Trade Commission has jurisdiction over most if not all forms of online games of chance. The link to discuss this with them is here:
They offer some recourse to international game players as well, fyi.
Tx for all of the information you have provided. Its been very helpful.
S
You're welcome. I only wish I could guarantee an effective response. Hopefully people will give you or your friend a good listen, and find a way to respond helpfully. That always has to do with resources, priorities etc.. Best wishes though; it looks to me like you have a legitimate concern, and that some options are available to get a fair hearing, and possibly some action.
As for comments about disenfranchised NGE vets, Sharky's not one of those fyi. For my part, I got a subscription refund after NGE, and an apology from Smed. I've only ever encouraged him to extend that to everyone that bought subscription time right before the NGE "surprise." He did refund the expansion price, which was a good step, but many people claim they didn't get subscription money reimbursed. Those that did, claim they did so by involving the state attorney general's office.
As for always getting a card (someone's comment), the point is that you don't always, or even often, get the card you are after. You have to pay cash for a random chance to get a card you are after. Also, this is not a card for the card game itself, it's loot for StarWars Galaxies. Not only is it loot, but it's loot that enhances your game play--gives you advantages over others that don't have the loot, even though they are already paying a subsription fee for the service.
According to the legislation I referred to above, online games can only use these reward systems if they are free to play. SWG is clearly not. Also, online games can only offer additional game-time as the reward. SOE is offering enhancements to game play in SWG.
This is unlike the other card games that have been mentioned. If you think what SOE is doing is the same as these other TCG's, I can only conclude that you're mistaken, or uninformed.
Please feel free at any point to refer to the legislation I've mentioned above. It seems to highlight some important issues: issues that people have been raising again and again, even before the legislation was specifically referred to. The main issues are that this is a game of chance that people are losing real money in, and that it is different from product promotionals (according to U.S. law) in that there is no free to play option. Games of chance like this need to be regulated to ensure that players are not misled or exploited by the house manipulating the odds (that's one concern among many).
People may not like the law, and they may want SOE to run an unregulated game of chance (for some reason) but the law is what it is, and the loot cards appear to violate it. I'd be surprised at this point if there wasn't some level of official scrutiny.
Bad faith MMO publishers like SOE are WHY the law needs to step in and protect the rights of customers.
I hate government regulation, but let's face it, completely unregulated business does not and never has worked, it's always been business taking advantage and screwing customers that brings regulation.
All the good publishers will have SOE to blame for when it happens.
I dont really have a problem with RMT in the case of an f2p game with ingame shop where you buy your content in small pieces. The principle is the same as having to buy expansion packs.
The lootcards in the trading card game however are like scratchcards (not sure about the right english words). The only way of obtaining the TCG lootcards is by buying unopened boosterpacks. You wont be guaranteed an item. This is simply gambling.
With the first TCG set they just added fluff with the lootcards. They were nothing more then an extra skin on already excisting game features (vendor npcs, vehicles, buff items etc).
Now they introduced new features with the diner and barn that are exclusively available through this gambling system called TCG.
This is just a rotten idea and slap in the face of the still dedicated players (I feel for the beastmasters )
I guess the US and Canadian lottery commissions need to get on Topps and Fleers ass then. Oh..and Wizards of the Coast....All of these companies have been exploiting the "rare" card trap...both on children and adults for a long while now. You're never guaranteed a rookie or a hologram or foil or Blackspawn of the Moors when you buy a pack of their cards. It's usually the motivator for purchase though and if you get one .....you can charge a butt-load of cash for it. Is this gambling?
You're talking about a function of the card game that rewards you with other functions of the card game, as opposed to using a function of the card game to reward someone with something totally unrelated.
It's like going to a carnival and wanting to ride the carousel, but you have to win a ticket playing the milk bottles game first. It's obvious that it's just a scam. However, nobody is going to complain if they are giving away stuffed animals, because stuffed animals aren't required to enjoy the rest of the carnival.
People wanting to play SWG shouldn't be punished for not wanting to pay for the TCG. People who play the TCG anyways aren't going to care either way, since the rewards are just a bonus.
Actually...I remember other prizes being offered in various trading card packs...this was the 80's though so i'll be damned if i remember ...lol. Imo....the loot cards are just like the stuffed animals at the carnival. It may seem cool to have one...but I don't need it to enjoy the game. That's why I can't quite see the great uproar over an issue that basically involves an act of freewill.
I like reading your posts on this issue. You seem to really think about the situation, and ask honest questions.
I think the uproar is related to a number of factors, and I'd like to hear your thoughts on them.
1. Some of the loot cards give you advantages in combat or the fastest vehicle in the game. Proposed new loot goes further in this direction with a stronger buff. So, to be competitive in a game you are already paying a subscription for, you now have to also gamble--or patiently wait each month to see if you receive the rare loot you will need to keep up. Other games have RMT items, but (a) they do not affect whether or not you can compete, and (b) you do not have to gamble real cash trying to get them.>>> I still believe they are unnecessary loot items...Do you really need the fastest Dewback or a plus 1% accuracy on your pistol. Nice but does it affect gameplay that much?....Now I don't regularly pvp and never been a"have to have the best" kind of person..I like solo and exploration....so that certainly affects my opinions. SOE is making money of human nature...which is to want the best 0f everything...or at least one better than the other person. I think most profitable businesses do this. All said..you don't have to pay anything..... unless it comes down to beating "Insert any SWG player name" at a duel.
2. The loot items being introduced into the game via a gambling mechanism used to be available as part of content updates that you received for your subscription payment. New vehicles or schematics would be introduced as content updates, and this was good value. Also, new schematics promoted player interaction and an exchange of ingame currency. Now, people do not interact with each other, or spend fake money. They interact with the Sony online store and spend real money for just a random chance to get a desired item. >>>> This does suck...is it a sure thing that they don't plan on intro of any other items in updates...or is it assumed b/c of the way SOE has conducted itself in the past. What was the deal with the Everquest games?,,is that what they did with those....or is this just an alternate way of obtaining apparently desired loot?
3. Gambling real money on the internet for the chance of winning a rewarding product or service happens all the time, and I'm fine with that, as are many others. However, in these online games, players have to be adults, they are aware of the odds, the odds are verified by an independent party, and the odds cannot be manipulated in favour of the "house" outside of the player's awareness. In the case of SOE's game of chance, it is marketted to people of all ages, players are not aware of the odds, the odds are not independently verified, and the odds can be changed at the "house's" sole discretion, outside of the awareness of the player. >>> I did suggest that they should add a parental filter to keep underage children from this activity although if parents gave there kids free reign with the credit card ...i don't know what to say on that. Even an option at account management that prohibits the use of the stored card info ...over and above monthly service. I do doubt...however...that many "children" are playing this game...at least not near a majority in numbers.
Do these concerns make sense?>>> Sure do....let's face it SOE has made some tremendous and player base alienating moves...no doubt about it..but .I'd be willing to bet (no pun) that 99% of those that use TCG services..are free-choosing adults who just want to one-up the next guy/gal at pvp...so if people are willing to bleed money...then the Sonysaurus is more than willing to feed.
I think there would be much less of an uproar if SOE considered a different path in the way it relates to its players. Here are some things to consider.
1. RMT items could have been introduced that were not needed to enhance gameplay (e.g. travel speed or combat abilities).
2. RMT items could have been sold to players in a straightforward manner, rather than have them gamble for them with real cash.
3. Since SWG is a subscription based game, they could just include new vehicles and/or buffs as part of chapter updates or veteran rewards. They have done this in the past, and people have felt that this was good value for their subscription dollars. Now paying a subscription fee isn't enough to keep up. You have to get a lucky monthly loot drop (which is unlikely) or you have to gamble with real cash, and still probably lose.
All of the strategies I've listed are much more player-friendly than the course SOE chose. In fact, it would appear that they have taken the least player-friendly approach to providing an MMO possible. In light of this, I think current players are right to ask questions and voice complaints.
overall though...I do agree that they should be offering the chance (through missions...pvp...whatever) to obtain similiar equipment...in game, compared to what can be obtained with cash via loot cards. If they are not doing this then don't even subscribe. Bioware will have another SW mmo out in no time. Again...probably the best way is to know what happened with TCG in other SOE mmos.
It is really not gambling, at least in my country. Law says that gambling is when participant use his/her money to get prize in money. It is not lottery as well because those packs(or whatever, i really havent bought them and dont play game) isnt ticket. No there is no wrong interpretation or something. It clearly says that. For example i remember Digimon, yugioh and other cards selling all around world in simple shops. So it is legal and stop crying because some idiots bought them and lost money with hope to find specific thing.
No, its not legal because you say so or because it is legal in Lithuania. Sorry
S
Just because you live in the USA doesn't make his (or my) opinion on what's legal and what's not when it comes to the TCG any less valid then yours. This is an international community.
except that in a real lottery theres a chance u wont win, in SWG u always win a prize.
What prize do you speak of?
if im correct u always get a card aka the prize.
The TCG is not SWG. People who want to fully enjoy SWG and are not interested in the TCG, are now confronted with exlusive features (Barn, Diner) offered through TCG.
So if they participate in TCG , its for those lootcards, not to play TCG. Those prizes (TCG playing cards) you speak of cant be used in SWG. So they are not a reward.
So do you get it now? We are talking about SWG features that you have to gamble for to be able to get.
With the first pack they only offered new skins on already excisting features. New vendor look, new vehicle look. Just fluff anyway. It wasnt a popular move from SOE, but at least no one cared if they werent able to get it.
So please try not to lose perspective here, we are talking about a player that wants to enjoy ALL features that SWG offers, while he already is paying a full AAA MMo monthly fee. But now new features are introduced that can be solely obtained through TCG (if you pay ingame credits for them, someone else gambled for them).
Comments
You're talking about a function of the card game that rewards you with other functions of the card game, as opposed to using a function of the card game to reward someone with something totally unrelated.
It's like going to a carnival and wanting to ride the carousel, but you have to win a ticket playing the milk bottles game first. It's obvious that it's just a scam. However, nobody is going to complain if they are giving away stuffed animals, because stuffed animals aren't required to enjoy the rest of the carnival.
People wanting to play SWG shouldn't be punished for not wanting to pay for the TCG. People who play the TCG anyways aren't going to care either way, since the rewards are just a bonus.
Actually...I remember other prizes being offered in various trading card packs...this was the 80's though so i'll be damned if i remember ...lol. Imo....the loot cards are just like the stuffed animals at the carnival. It may seem cool to have one...but I don't need it to enjoy the game. That's why I can't quite see the great uproar over an issue that basically involves an act of freewill.
I like reading your posts on this issue. You seem to really think about the situation, and ask honest questions.
I think the uproar is related to a number of factors, and I'd like to hear your thoughts on them.
1. Some of the loot cards give you advantages in combat or the fastest vehicle in the game. Proposed new loot goes further in this direction with a stronger buff. So, to be competitive in a game you are already paying a subscription for, you now have to also gamble--or patiently wait each month to see if you receive the rare loot you will need to keep up. Other games have RMT items, but (a) they do not affect whether or not you can compete, and (b) you do not have to gamble real cash trying to get them.
2. The loot items being introduced into the game via a gambling mechanism used to be available as part of content updates that you received for your subscription payment. New vehicles or schematics would be introduced as content updates, and this was good value. Also, new schematics promoted player interaction and an exchange of ingame currency. Now, people do not interact with each other, or spend fake money. They interact with the Sony online store and spend real money for just a random chance to get a desired item.
3. Gambling real money on the internet for the chance of winning a rewarding product or service happens all the time, and I'm fine with that, as are many others. However, in these online games, players have to be adults, they are aware of the odds, the odds are verified by an independent party, and the odds cannot be manipulated in favour of the "house" outside of the player's awareness. In the case of SOE's game of chance, it is marketted to people of all ages, players are not aware of the odds, the odds are not independently verified, and the odds can be changed at the "house's" sole discretion, outside of the awareness of the player.
Do these concerns make sense?
I think there would be much less of an uproar if SOE considered a different path in the way it relates to its players. Here are some things to consider.
1. RMT items could have been introduced that were not needed to enhance gameplay (e.g. travel speed or combat abilities).
2. RMT items could have been sold to players in a straightforward manner, rather than have them gamble for them with real cash.
3. Since SWG is a subscription based game, they could just include new vehicles and/or buffs as part of chapter updates or veteran rewards. They have done this in the past, and people have felt that this was good value for their subscription dollars. Now paying a subscription fee isn't enough to keep up. You have to get a lucky monthly loot drop (which is unlikely) or you have to gamble with real cash, and still probably lose.
All of the strategies I've listed are much more player-friendly than the course SOE chose. In fact, it would appear that they have taken the least player-friendly approach to providing an MMO possible. In light of this, I think current players are right to ask questions and voice complaints.
Did I lose alot of money to get a loot card? Actually, no.
As I started, my first five free booster packs contained a Jawa Vendor/Black Corset Dress/ and a Housing Cleaning Kit.
Second free set of packs, I recieved a Gungan Vendor.
Third Free packs I got an large indoor fountain.
Now, that aside I spend about $15.00USD for 5 packs about every other week. So, we'll take about two months. So, that's about $150.000USD total and I managed to get a few things here and there. hell, I even got that elusive Sith-Speeder.
Was it a gamble? Well, that depends. I bought the cards to play the game not to attain loot cards. In which, like some have stated, is just a bonus. What I do with them? I traded or sold them and with whatever I got I gave away to friends or guildies who needed help with their Collection venure.
The gamble that everyone argues about is the mind set forth by SOE. Is it a money making scam? Probably. Do I care? No.
The gambling element in the SWG:TCG is that if you're only paying to acquire loot cards, that's the gamble in of itself.
I'm not against anyone at this point because both sides are right. It's up to the legal system to decide what it is or what it is not.
The points through the entire thread is about how the TCG ruin the game. Unfortunately, it did not. It was an uproar about what the community asked for in a certain length of time, only to receive it through a payment method. Such as new vehicles. Engineers of the game went berserk.
Buff items. However, the only thing that came out was the for one hour you get a +%20 experience point increase.
Decorations and such are the primary loot bag.
To that guy who's friend ruined a paycheck to try and get a Sith Speeder, I feel for. Seriously, that's a problem if you spent nearly $500 to get one. However, what people fail to realize that you can set up a trade/or sales requesting one.
Again, I see no reason why to be upset about something that has no real issue with real life.
It only becomes a real life debacle if you let it. Again, it is your choice to buy or to get mad, or to stand defensive.
Because I would like people to try and say something about those free MMOs with a Cash Shop place. In which you must spend real money to get store points to purchase a virtual item.
Someone spending their paycheck to obtain a Sith Speeder in a dead Star Wars game is about the most pathetic thing I have ever heard of in my life... That dude needs to seek help, immediately.
Tecmo Bowl.
It is really not gambling, at least in my country. Law says that gambling is when participant use his/her money to get prize in money. It is not lottery as well because those packs(or whatever, i really havent bought them and dont play game) isnt ticket. No there is no wrong interpretation or something. It clearly says that.
For example i remember Digimon, yugioh and other cards selling all around world in simple shops. So it is legal and stop crying because some idiots bought them and lost money with hope to find specific thing.
No, its not legal because you say so or because it is legal in Lithuania. Sorry
S
No, its not legal because you say so or because it is legal in Lithuania. Sorry
S
So I googled internet gambling laws in the U.S. and this is what I found. Here's a definition of internet gambling from the Unlawful Internet Gambling Act (2006): "the purchase of a chance to win a lottery or other prize the award of which is predominantly subject to chance."
Does this seem to fit the loot cards? Yes, I believe it does. I did find an exception for online games, so let's see if it applies to SWG. Here's the exception: "participation in online games with no pay-to-play aspect and where the prizes are limited to free play." Does SWG have a pay to play aspect? You betcha. Are the prizes in the game of chance limited to free play? Absolutely not. In other words, SWG's loot card lottery does not fit the criteria for exception, at all.
Sharky, I think this is all you need to bring to the attention of the authorities on behalf of your friend that got burned. Best wishes.
By the way, this goes for anyone that got burned by what appears to be illegal gambling on the part of SOE. Probably the best people to talk to in the U.S. would be the state gambling commissions. There's also a complaint site for the FBI regarding internet crime. If you lost a whack of cash to this online gambling scheme, feel free to use it.
I just checked jurisdictional matters regarding online gambling. It's a complicated read, depending on how money changes hands. The Federal Trade Commission has jurisdiction over most if not all forms of online games of chance. The link to discuss this with them is here:
https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/
They offer some recourse to international game players as well, fyi.
No, its not legal because you say so or because it is legal in Lithuania. Sorry
S
So I googled internet gambling laws in the U.S. and this is what I found. Here's a definition of internet gambling from the Unlawful Internet Gambling Act (2006): "the purchase of a chance to win a lottery or other prize the award of which is predominantly subject to chance."
Does this seem to fit the loot cards? Yes, I believe it does. I did find an exception for online games, so let's see if it applies to SWG. Here's the exception: "participation in online games with no pay-to-play aspect and where the prizes are limited to free play." Does SWG have a pay to play aspect? You betcha. Are the prizes in the game of chance limited to free play? Absolutely not. In other words, SWG's loot card lottery does not fit the criteria for exception, at all.
Sharky, I think this is all you need to bring to the attention of the authorities on behalf of your friend that got burned. Best wishes.
By the way, this goes for anyone that got burned by what appears to be illegal gambling on the part of SOE. Probably the best people to talk to in the U.S. would be the state gambling commissions. There's also a complaint site for the FBI regarding internet crime. If you lost a whack of cash to this online gambling scheme, feel free to use it.
I just checked jurisdictional matters regarding online gambling. It's a complicated read, depending on how money changes hands. The Federal Trade Commission has jurisdiction over most if not all forms of online games of chance. The link to discuss this with them is here:
https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/
They offer some recourse to international game players as well, fyi.
Tx for all of the information you have provided. Its been very helpful.
S
except that in a real lottery theres a chance u wont win, in SWG u always win a prize.
edit: if this is illegal then so are the flippos or the pokemon trade cards or all that crap
MMOs currently playing: -
About to play: Lord of the Rings Online
Played: Anarchy Online (alltime favorite) and lots of f2p titles (honorable mentions: 9Dragons, Martial Heroes, Dekaron, Atlantica Online)
Really? So all I have to do is buy ONE "pack" and I get the loot I wanted?
Unless that's true then you ARE gambling by buying.
Seems to me SOE is running an illegal gambling operation here and should be turned over to the authorities.
Why didn't people complain about this when Champions of Norrath was released? It's the same system. If people really cared about others losing money, I would have figured that there would have been some big movement by now. This still all comes back to the NGE and disenfranchised MMO players not wanting SOE to make money off of people.
Really? So all I have to do is buy ONE "pack" and I get the loot I wanted?
Unless that's true then you ARE gambling by buying.
Seems to me SOE is running an illegal gambling operation here and should be turned over to the authorities.
no u wont get everything u want, but its not the same as gambling. see my flippos example
edit: my bad, its not the same as ILLEGAL gambling, i agree it is gambling in a way
MMOs currently playing: -
About to play: Lord of the Rings Online
Played: Anarchy Online (alltime favorite) and lots of f2p titles (honorable mentions: 9Dragons, Martial Heroes, Dekaron, Atlantica Online)
What prize do you speak of?
--------
Ten Golden Rules Of Videogame Fanboyism
"SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor
Yep. I don't want SOE to make a dime. I want the company to fold.
But that still doesn't change things if they are doing something illegal.
What prize do you speak of?
if im correct u always get a card aka the prize.
MMOs currently playing: -
About to play: Lord of the Rings Online
Played: Anarchy Online (alltime favorite) and lots of f2p titles (honorable mentions: 9Dragons, Martial Heroes, Dekaron, Atlantica Online)
What prize do you speak of?
if im correct u always get a card aka the prize.
What are the odds of getting a loot card with each pack? Where is that posted?
--------
Ten Golden Rules Of Videogame Fanboyism
"SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor
What prize do you speak of?
if im correct u always get a card aka the prize.
What are the odds of getting a loot card with each pack? Where is that posted?
i have no idea, i dont play SWG or any sony game
)
but if this is illegal then so are all the card games, im sure some cards are very rare and ofc they are so for one reason, to get more money out it. some people go very far for it but hey im sure they know what they are doing if they got lots of money. they earned it so they can spend it the way they want
MMOs currently playing: -
About to play: Lord of the Rings Online
Played: Anarchy Online (alltime favorite) and lots of f2p titles (honorable mentions: 9Dragons, Martial Heroes, Dekaron, Atlantica Online)
This isn't a card game.. it isn't even declared as gambling..so someone has to check legality.. Does they mention in ToS that SWG is about gambling ? How they prevent immature people getting addicted? all that stuff ..
Gambling is illegal in many countries. But even fi it is allowed in some..it is very questionable and unethical ..but we used to this company being immoral ..
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
No, its not legal because you say so or because it is legal in Lithuania. Sorry
S
So I googled internet gambling laws in the U.S. and this is what I found. Here's a definition of internet gambling from the Unlawful Internet Gambling Act (2006): "the purchase of a chance to win a lottery or other prize the award of which is predominantly subject to chance."
Does this seem to fit the loot cards? Yes, I believe it does. I did find an exception for online games, so let's see if it applies to SWG. Here's the exception: "participation in online games with no pay-to-play aspect and where the prizes are limited to free play." Does SWG have a pay to play aspect? You betcha. Are the prizes in the game of chance limited to free play? Absolutely not. In other words, SWG's loot card lottery does not fit the criteria for exception, at all.
Sharky, I think this is all you need to bring to the attention of the authorities on behalf of your friend that got burned. Best wishes.
By the way, this goes for anyone that got burned by what appears to be illegal gambling on the part of SOE. Probably the best people to talk to in the U.S. would be the state gambling commissions. There's also a complaint site for the FBI regarding internet crime. If you lost a whack of cash to this online gambling scheme, feel free to use it.
I just checked jurisdictional matters regarding online gambling. It's a complicated read, depending on how money changes hands. The Federal Trade Commission has jurisdiction over most if not all forms of online games of chance. The link to discuss this with them is here:
https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/
They offer some recourse to international game players as well, fyi.
Tx for all of the information you have provided. Its been very helpful.
S
You're welcome. I only wish I could guarantee an effective response. Hopefully people will give you or your friend a good listen, and find a way to respond helpfully. That always has to do with resources, priorities etc.. Best wishes though; it looks to me like you have a legitimate concern, and that some options are available to get a fair hearing, and possibly some action.
As for comments about disenfranchised NGE vets, Sharky's not one of those fyi. For my part, I got a subscription refund after NGE, and an apology from Smed. I've only ever encouraged him to extend that to everyone that bought subscription time right before the NGE "surprise." He did refund the expansion price, which was a good step, but many people claim they didn't get subscription money reimbursed. Those that did, claim they did so by involving the state attorney general's office.
As for always getting a card (someone's comment), the point is that you don't always, or even often, get the card you are after. You have to pay cash for a random chance to get a card you are after. Also, this is not a card for the card game itself, it's loot for StarWars Galaxies. Not only is it loot, but it's loot that enhances your game play--gives you advantages over others that don't have the loot, even though they are already paying a subsription fee for the service.
According to the legislation I referred to above, online games can only use these reward systems if they are free to play. SWG is clearly not. Also, online games can only offer additional game-time as the reward. SOE is offering enhancements to game play in SWG.
This is unlike the other card games that have been mentioned. If you think what SOE is doing is the same as these other TCG's, I can only conclude that you're mistaken, or uninformed.
Please feel free at any point to refer to the legislation I've mentioned above. It seems to highlight some important issues: issues that people have been raising again and again, even before the legislation was specifically referred to. The main issues are that this is a game of chance that people are losing real money in, and that it is different from product promotionals (according to U.S. law) in that there is no free to play option. Games of chance like this need to be regulated to ensure that players are not misled or exploited by the house manipulating the odds (that's one concern among many).
People may not like the law, and they may want SOE to run an unregulated game of chance (for some reason) but the law is what it is, and the loot cards appear to violate it. I'd be surprised at this point if there wasn't some level of official scrutiny.
Bad faith MMO publishers like SOE are WHY the law needs to step in and protect the rights of customers.
I hate government regulation, but let's face it, completely unregulated business does not and never has worked, it's always been business taking advantage and screwing customers that brings regulation.
All the good publishers will have SOE to blame for when it happens.
I dont really have a problem with RMT in the case of an f2p game with ingame shop where you buy your content in small pieces. The principle is the same as having to buy expansion packs.
The lootcards in the trading card game however are like scratchcards (not sure about the right english words). The only way of obtaining the TCG lootcards is by buying unopened boosterpacks. You wont be guaranteed an item. This is simply gambling.
With the first TCG set they just added fluff with the lootcards. They were nothing more then an extra skin on already excisting game features (vendor npcs, vehicles, buff items etc).
Now they introduced new features with the diner and barn that are exclusively available through this gambling system called TCG.
This is just a rotten idea and slap in the face of the still dedicated players (I feel for the beastmasters
)
You're talking about a function of the card game that rewards you with other functions of the card game, as opposed to using a function of the card game to reward someone with something totally unrelated.
It's like going to a carnival and wanting to ride the carousel, but you have to win a ticket playing the milk bottles game first. It's obvious that it's just a scam. However, nobody is going to complain if they are giving away stuffed animals, because stuffed animals aren't required to enjoy the rest of the carnival.
People wanting to play SWG shouldn't be punished for not wanting to pay for the TCG. People who play the TCG anyways aren't going to care either way, since the rewards are just a bonus.
Actually...I remember other prizes being offered in various trading card packs...this was the 80's though so i'll be damned if i remember ...lol. Imo....the loot cards are just like the stuffed animals at the carnival. It may seem cool to have one...but I don't need it to enjoy the game. That's why I can't quite see the great uproar over an issue that basically involves an act of freewill.
I like reading your posts on this issue. You seem to really think about the situation, and ask honest questions.
I think the uproar is related to a number of factors, and I'd like to hear your thoughts on them.
1. Some of the loot cards give you advantages in combat or the fastest vehicle in the game. Proposed new loot goes further in this direction with a stronger buff. So, to be competitive in a game you are already paying a subscription for, you now have to also gamble--or patiently wait each month to see if you receive the rare loot you will need to keep up. Other games have RMT items, but (a) they do not affect whether or not you can compete, and (b) you do not have to gamble real cash trying to get them.>>> I still believe they are unnecessary loot items...Do you really need the fastest Dewback or a plus 1% accuracy on your pistol. Nice but does it affect gameplay that much?....Now I don't regularly pvp and never been a"have to have the best" kind of person..I like solo and exploration....so that certainly affects my opinions. SOE is making money of human nature...which is to want the best 0f everything...or at least one better than the other person. I think most profitable businesses do this. All said..you don't have to pay anything..... unless it comes down to beating "Insert any SWG player name" at a duel.
2. The loot items being introduced into the game via a gambling mechanism used to be available as part of content updates that you received for your subscription payment. New vehicles or schematics would be introduced as content updates, and this was good value. Also, new schematics promoted player interaction and an exchange of ingame currency. Now, people do not interact with each other, or spend fake money. They interact with the Sony online store and spend real money for just a random chance to get a desired item. >>>> This does suck...is it a sure thing that they don't plan on intro of any other items in updates...or is it assumed b/c of the way SOE has conducted itself in the past. What was the deal with the Everquest games?,,is that what they did with those....or is this just an alternate way of obtaining apparently desired loot?
3. Gambling real money on the internet for the chance of winning a rewarding product or service happens all the time, and I'm fine with that, as are many others. However, in these online games, players have to be adults, they are aware of the odds, the odds are verified by an independent party, and the odds cannot be manipulated in favour of the "house" outside of the player's awareness. In the case of SOE's game of chance, it is marketted to people of all ages, players are not aware of the odds, the odds are not independently verified, and the odds can be changed at the "house's" sole discretion, outside of the awareness of the player. >>> I did suggest that they should add a parental filter to keep underage children from this activity although if parents gave there kids free reign with the credit card ...i don't know what to say on that. Even an option at account management that prohibits the use of the stored card info ...over and above monthly service. I do doubt...however...that many "children" are playing this game...at least not near a majority in numbers.
Do these concerns make sense?>>> Sure do....let's face it SOE has made some tremendous and player base alienating moves...no doubt about it..but .I'd be willing to bet (no pun) that 99% of those that use TCG services..are free-choosing adults who just want to one-up the next guy/gal at pvp...so if people are willing to bleed money...then the Sonysaurus is more than willing to feed.
I think there would be much less of an uproar if SOE considered a different path in the way it relates to its players. Here are some things to consider.
1. RMT items could have been introduced that were not needed to enhance gameplay (e.g. travel speed or combat abilities).
2. RMT items could have been sold to players in a straightforward manner, rather than have them gamble for them with real cash.
3. Since SWG is a subscription based game, they could just include new vehicles and/or buffs as part of chapter updates or veteran rewards. They have done this in the past, and people have felt that this was good value for their subscription dollars. Now paying a subscription fee isn't enough to keep up. You have to get a lucky monthly loot drop (which is unlikely) or you have to gamble with real cash, and still probably lose.
All of the strategies I've listed are much more player-friendly than the course SOE chose. In fact, it would appear that they have taken the least player-friendly approach to providing an MMO possible. In light of this, I think current players are right to ask questions and voice complaints.
overall though...I do agree that they should be offering the chance (through missions...pvp...whatever) to obtain similiar equipment...in game, compared to what can be obtained with cash via loot cards. If they are not doing this then don't even subscribe. Bioware will have another SW mmo out in no time. Again...probably the best way is to know what happened with TCG in other SOE mmos.
SOE is running a gambling operation. They need to comply with the law on it. If they aren't, Smed needs to be perp marched into the paddy wagon.
No, its not legal because you say so or because it is legal in Lithuania. Sorry
S
Just because you live in the USA doesn't make his (or my) opinion on what's legal and what's not when it comes to the TCG any less valid then yours. This is an international community.
Congress made ALL online gambling operations illegal and offlimits to US citizens and to US banks.
Indeed if your bank accepts charges for the SWG TCG they are liable to chargeback on that alone.
Smed's boys always were shoddy on the details.
What prize do you speak of?
if im correct u always get a card aka the prize.
The TCG is not SWG. People who want to fully enjoy SWG and are not interested in the TCG, are now confronted with exlusive features (Barn, Diner) offered through TCG.
So if they participate in TCG , its for those lootcards, not to play TCG. Those prizes (TCG playing cards) you speak of cant be used in SWG. So they are not a reward.
So do you get it now? We are talking about SWG features that you have to gamble for to be able to get.
With the first pack they only offered new skins on already excisting features. New vendor look, new vehicle look. Just fluff anyway. It wasnt a popular move from SOE, but at least no one cared if they werent able to get it.
So please try not to lose perspective here, we are talking about a player that wants to enjoy ALL features that SWG offers, while he already is paying a full AAA MMo monthly fee. But now new features are introduced that can be solely obtained through TCG (if you pay ingame credits for them, someone else gambled for them).