"I've read some posts about people losing a lot of money trying to get a specific loot card in the StarWars TCG. Has that happened to anyone on this board? I'd be curious to know what you were after, how much it cost you, and whether or not you ever actually got what you were looking for."
I lost my house, my dog and all my self respect...I was hunting for that "Vets" go away card....
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
"I've read some posts about people losing a lot of money trying to get a specific loot card in the StarWars TCG. Has that happened to anyone on this board? I'd be curious to know what you were after, how much it cost you, and whether or not you ever actually got what you were looking for."
I lost my house, my dog and all my self respect...I was hunting for that "Vets" go away card....
I know 2 people who have lost very large sums of money - both after the Sith Speeder (over 400 pounds each and 1 got some crappy prizes, the other nothing). I also know of others who have wasted smaller amounts.
Gambling by definition, since forum monkeys like them, is the risk of losing your original bet. You don't lose anything because you still got the value of your purchase.... and it is a purchase... not a wager.
This.
For a SWG player that isnt interested in TCG (its a seperate game), but is interested in the new features.
That person has to buy boosterpacks for a CHANCE on those ingame items.
For every boosterpack that doesnt have a lootcard (reward), he loses money (risk).
You just explained why TCG is gambling for someone who wants the new items offered by TCG and isnt interested in playing the cardgame.
Well, by George W. Bush... ya got me.
So they bought a pack of cards for a collectible card game and then they choose not to play it.
It is still their choice not to play what they bought
It's still not gambling whether or not those cards have use outside the card game.
Sony is selling a card game. That is the big difference.
Sony is not just and only running a give me $10 and we'll spin the wheel and see if you win or lose. They are selling a product and those people who choose to are purchasing it.
I fully understand and get your point that it seems immoral and wrong to do... hell I agree and hope SOE burns in hell for all of eternity.
But that doesn't make it gambling or illegal.
Because, in the end my dear friends, you are buying a product... and not a lottery ticket.
Those who choose not to play the game after purchasing it still bought a game.... and not a lottery ticket.
Well, I only used your definition on what gambling is. For the simple reason that the lootcards are not to be used in the TCG itself.
Anyway, the reason why the players get so upset is that the new 2 buildings are items that have been asked for for ages.
There you have the barn that can show animals walk around that are still hatched. Awesome to have for a beastmaster to show his stock to potential customers. But to get it, they have to buy booster packs in a totally different game! So apparently their AAA MMO monthly fee isnt enough to access all features.
Or what about structure traders? They also asked for new buildings to craft for ages. Now there are 2 released that actually might sell good, they dont get to craft it.
The gambling aspect is my problem with this. Im not interested in those buildings, but I do understand that SWG players would have to buy boosterpacks from a game they dont play to get SWG features. This is such a cheap scam and the way of obtaining such an item is gambling by your definition.
This is also why all analogies with other TCG dont hold and why this isnt simply RMT. RMT guarantees you the item/feature you WANT like an expansion pack does.
Gambling by definition, since forum monkeys like them, is the risk of losing your original bet. You don't lose anything because you still got the value of your purchase.... and it is a purchase... not a wager.
This.
For a SWG player that isnt interested in TCG (its a seperate game), but is interested in the new features.
That person has to buy boosterpacks for a CHANCE on those ingame items.
For every boosterpack that doesnt have a lootcard (reward), he loses money (risk).
You just explained why TCG is gambling for someone who wants the new items offered by TCG and isnt interested in playing the cardgame.
Well, by George W. Bush... ya got me.
So they bought a pack of cards for a collectible card game and then they choose not to play it.
It is still their choice not to play what they bought
It's still not gambling whether or not those cards have use outside the card game.
Sony is selling a card game. That is the big difference.
Sony is not just and only running a give me $10 and we'll spin the wheel and see if you win or lose. They are selling a product and those people who choose to are purchasing it.
I fully understand and get your point that it seems immoral and wrong to do... hell I agree and hope SOE burns in hell for all of eternity.
But that doesn't make it gambling or illegal.
Because, in the end my dear friends, you are buying a product... and not a lottery ticket.
Those who choose not to play the game after purchasing it still bought a game.... and not a lottery ticket.
Well, I only used your definition on what gambling is. For the simple reason that the lootcards are not to be used in the TCG itself.
Anyway, the reason why the players get so upset is that the new 2 buildings are items that have been asked for for ages.
There you have the barn that can show animals walk around that are still hatched. Awesome to have for a beastmaster to show his stock to potential customers. But to get it, they have to buy booster packs in a totally different game! So apparently their AAA MMO monthly fee isnt enough to access all features.
Or what about structure traders? They also asked for new buildings to craft for ages. Now there are 2 released that actually might sell good, they dont get to craft it.
The gambling aspect is my problem with this. Im not interested in those buildings, but I do understand that SWG players would have to buy boosterpacks from a game they dont play to get SWG features. This is such a cheap scam and the way of obtaining such an item is gambling by your definition.
This is also why all analogies with other TCG dont hold and why this isnt simply RMT. RMT guarantees you the item/feature you WANT like an expansion pack does.
QFT.
Excellent and concise post.
Not to mention that the Barn was suggested by players.
I think they should require a looted in-game holocron that when used gives the player a chance to be able to buy the booster packs, which then gives the player a chance to get a special card.
You folks seem to be ignoring the elephant in the room here, it cant be gambling because there is no possability of a prize. There is no prize. As was mentioned earlier in the thread but for different reasons, SOE owns your account, not you. You dont really own your character, so you dont own his virtual cards. The argument that these things have value because people pay money for them is valid, but because selling them for real money is illegal it doesnt much matter. You cant choose to break your contract with SOE and sell/buy these nonexistant things for real cash, and then try to use that as a justification that they're doing something wrong. Essentially people are paying money to get... wait for it....... nothing. Thats not gambling, its stupidity.
According to the Internet gambling law definition, you don't need to be gambling for cash. Here's the definition again from the Unlawful Internet Gambling Act (2006): "the purchase of a chance to win a lottery or other prize the award of which is predominantly subject to chance."
Does this seem to fit the loot cards? It does. I don't think we have a proverbial elephant therefore.
I did find an exception for online games, so let's see if it applies to SWG. Here's the exception: "participation in online games with no pay-to-play aspect." SWG, as we all know is a pay to play game.
So, a chance to win a loot item is purchased, and this is a pay-to-play game. Suggesting that you need to be after cash prizes appears to be incorrect--the definition in the legislation appears to be much broader.
People gamble for chances to win services/experiences all the time, not just money or material goods. In this case, they are taking a gamble that they will win something that will enhance the online game they are already paying for. Also, if you look carefully at the mechanics, you'll see that the loot items are becoming increasingly necessary to remain competitive in the paid-for game. The next buffs avaiable by chance are more powerful. Currently there are buffs and exclusive vehicles, one of which outperforms everything else in the paid-for game. Coming next expansion, we're told, are more powerful buffs and exclusive structures.
Does that address the elephant issue?
P.S. I still hear Dingo's acknowledgement that there is something that falls afoul of legislated standards. The only question that remains for me is, "will this be construed as an illegal sweepstakes or as online gambling?" I'd have to look into the specific differences between these two things, as they're defined in law, and I need to go oversee an exam . If I'm really in need of distraction afterwards, and think that reading through U.S. legislation will hit the spot, I'll check it out lol. Prolly, I'll just listen to Pink Floyd -_^.
You folks seem to be ignoring the elephant in the room here, it cant be gambling because there is no possability of a prize. There is no prize. As was mentioned earlier in the thread but for different reasons, SOE owns your account, not you. You dont really own your character, so you dont own his virtual cards. The argument that these things have value because people pay money for them is valid, but because selling them for real money is illegal it doesnt much matter. You cant choose to break your contract with SOE and sell/buy these nonexistant things for real cash, and then try to use that as a justification that they're doing something wrong. Essentially people are paying money to get... wait for it....... nothing. Thats not gambling, its stupidity.
According to the Internet gambling law definition, you don't need to be gambling for cash. Here's the definition again from the Unlawful Internet Gambling Act (2006): "the purchase of a chance to win a lottery or other prize the award of which is predominantly subject to chance."
Does this seem to fit the loot cards? It does. I don't think we have a proverbial elephant therefore.
I did find an exception for online games, so let's see if it applies to SWG. Here's the exception: "participation in online games with no pay-to-play aspect." SWG, as we all know is a pay to play game.
So, a chance to win a loot item is purchased, and this is a pay-to-play game. Suggesting that you need to be after cash prizes appears to be incorrect--the definition in the legislation appears to be much broader.
People gamble for chances to win services/experiences all the time, not just money or material goods. In this case, they are taking a gamble that they will win something that will enhance the online game they are already paying for. Also, if you look carefully at the mechanics, you'll see that the loot items are becoming increasingly necessary to remain competitive in the paid-for game. The next buffs avaiable by chance are more powerful. Currently there are buffs and exclusive vehicles, one of which outperforms everything else in the paid-for game. Coming next expansion, we're told, are more powerful buffs and exclusive structures.
Does that address the elephant issue?
P.S. I still hear Dingo's acknowledgement that there is something that falls afoul of legislated standards. The only question that remains for me is, "will this be construed as an illegal sweepstakes or as online gambling?" I'd have to look into the specific differences between these two things, as they're defined in law, and I need to go oversee an exam . If I'm really in need of distraction afterwards, and think that reading through U.S. legislation will hit the spot, I'll check it out lol. Prolly, I'll just listen to Pink Floyd -_^.
Well, I think SOE might be dodging the bullet by providing 5 Free Booster Packs per month to your account. So in a way you're not paying for the Booster Packs unless you want to increase your chances of getting the loot card.
Also Loot Cards can be bought in game with in game currency, so again you really don't have to pay really money to get the loot card.
There's a post on SOE's Forums regarding the odds of getting a Loot Card, its something around 1:9 odds.
You folks seem to be ignoring the elephant in the room here, it cant be gambling because there is no possability of a prize. There is no prize. As was mentioned earlier in the thread but for different reasons, SOE owns your account, not you. You dont really own your character, so you dont own his virtual cards. The argument that these things have value because people pay money for them is valid, but because selling them for real money is illegal it doesnt much matter. You cant choose to break your contract with SOE and sell/buy these nonexistant things for real cash, and then try to use that as a justification that they're doing something wrong. Essentially people are paying money to get... wait for it....... nothing. Thats not gambling, its stupidity.
According to the Internet gambling law definition, you don't need to be gambling for cash. Here's the definition again from the Unlawful Internet Gambling Act (2006): "the purchase of a chance to win a lottery or other prize the award of which is predominantly subject to chance."
Does this seem to fit the loot cards? It does. I don't think we have a proverbial elephant therefore.
I did find an exception for online games, so let's see if it applies to SWG. Here's the exception: "participation in online games with no pay-to-play aspect." SWG, as we all know is a pay to play game.
So, a chance to win a loot item is purchased, and this is a pay-to-play game. Suggesting that you need to be after cash prizes appears to be incorrect--the definition in the legislation appears to be much broader.
People gamble for chances to win services/experiences all the time, not just money or material goods. In this case, they are taking a gamble that they will win something that will enhance the online game they are already paying for. Also, if you look carefully at the mechanics, you'll see that the loot items are becoming increasingly necessary to remain competitive in the paid-for game. The next buffs avaiable by chance are more powerful. Currently there are buffs and exclusive vehicles, one of which outperforms everything else in the paid-for game. Coming next expansion, we're told, are more powerful buffs and exclusive structures.
Does that address the elephant issue?
P.S. I still hear Dingo's acknowledgement that there is something that falls afoul of legislated standards. The only question that remains for me is, "will this be construed as an illegal sweepstakes or as online gambling?" I'd have to look into the specific differences between these two things, as they're defined in law, and I need to go oversee an exam . If I'm really in need of distraction afterwards, and think that reading through U.S. legislation will hit the spot, I'll check it out lol. Prolly, I'll just listen to Pink Floyd -_^.
Well, I think SOE might be dodging the bullet by providing 5 Free Booster Packs per month to your account. So in a way you're not paying for the Booster Packs unless you want to increase your chances of getting the loot card.
Also Loot Cards can be bought in game with in game currency, so again you really don't have to pay really money to get the loot card.
There's a post on SOE's Forums regarding the odds of getting a Loot Card, its something around 1:9 odds.
The cards are NOT free. PLEASE read the thread before commenting. Your subscription must be paid each month BEFORE you get any cards.
They have a real world monetary value, so that argument is dead as well.
A post is not a Legal statement. I could start my own lottery and post "odds". That doesn't mean to say there is any truth to them unless my site is regulated, which SOE isn't, YET.
You folks seem to be ignoring the elephant in the room here, it cant be gambling because there is no possability of a prize. There is no prize. As was mentioned earlier in the thread but for different reasons, SOE owns your account, not you. You dont really own your character, so you dont own his virtual cards. The argument that these things have value because people pay money for them is valid, but because selling them for real money is illegal it doesnt much matter. You cant choose to break your contract with SOE and sell/buy these nonexistant things for real cash, and then try to use that as a justification that they're doing something wrong. Essentially people are paying money to get... wait for it....... nothing. Thats not gambling, its stupidity.
According to the Internet gambling law definition, you don't need to be gambling for cash. Here's the definition again from the Unlawful Internet Gambling Act (2006): "the purchase of a chance to win a lottery or other prize the award of which is predominantly subject to chance."
Does this seem to fit the loot cards? It does. I don't think we have a proverbial elephant therefore.
I did find an exception for online games, so let's see if it applies to SWG. Here's the exception: "participation in online games with no pay-to-play aspect." SWG, as we all know is a pay to play game.
So, a chance to win a loot item is purchased, and this is a pay-to-play game. Suggesting that you need to be after cash prizes appears to be incorrect--the definition in the legislation appears to be much broader.
People gamble for chances to win services/experiences all the time, not just money or material goods. In this case, they are taking a gamble that they will win something that will enhance the online game they are already paying for. Also, if you look carefully at the mechanics, you'll see that the loot items are becoming increasingly necessary to remain competitive in the paid-for game. The next buffs avaiable by chance are more powerful. Currently there are buffs and exclusive vehicles, one of which outperforms everything else in the paid-for game. Coming next expansion, we're told, are more powerful buffs and exclusive structures.
Does that address the elephant issue?
P.S. I still hear Dingo's acknowledgement that there is something that falls afoul of legislated standards. The only question that remains for me is, "will this be construed as an illegal sweepstakes or as online gambling?" I'd have to look into the specific differences between these two things, as they're defined in law, and I need to go oversee an exam . If I'm really in need of distraction afterwards, and think that reading through U.S. legislation will hit the spot, I'll check it out lol. Prolly, I'll just listen to Pink Floyd -_^.
Well, I think SOE might be dodging the bullet by providing 5 Free Booster Packs per month to your account. So in a way you're not paying for the Booster Packs unless you want to increase your chances of getting the loot card.
Also Loot Cards can be bought in game with in game currency, so again you really don't have to pay really money to get the loot card.
There's a post on SOE's Forums regarding the odds of getting a Loot Card, its something around 1:9 odds.
The cards are NOT free. PLEASE read the thread before commenting. Your subscription must be paid each month BEFORE you get any cards.
They have a real world monetary value, so that argument is dead as well.
Are you informed that when you subscribe to the game that you get the 5 Booster Packs? No you're not, so you can't come here and say that it has a monetary value. Its the same thing when I buy a pack of cereal and I get a free DVD inside. The DVD inside the cereal box has no monetary value since you're not paying extra for it.
Now if you actually PURCHASE the Booster Packs, that's a different thing. Again, you can argue all you want and tell me that I'm wrong, you're right, you're talking to "provincial" agencies and whatnot. To be honest I got a feeling that SOE/SCEA have their arses quite covered. I'm not even going to bother coming here anymore.
You folks seem to be ignoring the elephant in the room here, it cant be gambling because there is no possability of a prize. There is no prize. As was mentioned earlier in the thread but for different reasons, SOE owns your account, not you. You dont really own your character, so you dont own his virtual cards. The argument that these things have value because people pay money for them is valid, but because selling them for real money is illegal it doesnt much matter. You cant choose to break your contract with SOE and sell/buy these nonexistant things for real cash, and then try to use that as a justification that they're doing something wrong. Essentially people are paying money to get... wait for it....... nothing. Thats not gambling, its stupidity.
According to the Internet gambling law definition, you don't need to be gambling for cash. Here's the definition again from the Unlawful Internet Gambling Act (2006): "the purchase of a chance to win a lottery or other prize the award of which is predominantly subject to chance."
Does this seem to fit the loot cards? It does. I don't think we have a proverbial elephant therefore.
I did find an exception for online games, so let's see if it applies to SWG. Here's the exception: "participation in online games with no pay-to-play aspect." SWG, as we all know is a pay to play game.
So, a chance to win a loot item is purchased, and this is a pay-to-play game. Suggesting that you need to be after cash prizes appears to be incorrect--the definition in the legislation appears to be much broader.
People gamble for chances to win services/experiences all the time, not just money or material goods. In this case, they are taking a gamble that they will win something that will enhance the online game they are already paying for. Also, if you look carefully at the mechanics, you'll see that the loot items are becoming increasingly necessary to remain competitive in the paid-for game. The next buffs avaiable by chance are more powerful. Currently there are buffs and exclusive vehicles, one of which outperforms everything else in the paid-for game. Coming next expansion, we're told, are more powerful buffs and exclusive structures.
Does that address the elephant issue?
P.S. I still hear Dingo's acknowledgement that there is something that falls afoul of legislated standards. The only question that remains for me is, "will this be construed as an illegal sweepstakes or as online gambling?" I'd have to look into the specific differences between these two things, as they're defined in law, and I need to go oversee an exam . If I'm really in need of distraction afterwards, and think that reading through U.S. legislation will hit the spot, I'll check it out lol. Prolly, I'll just listen to Pink Floyd -_^.
Well, I think SOE might be dodging the bullet by providing 5 Free Booster Packs per month to your account. So in a way you're not paying for the Booster Packs unless you want to increase your chances of getting the loot card.
Also Loot Cards can be bought in game with in game currency, so again you really don't have to pay really money to get the loot card.
There's a post on SOE's Forums regarding the odds of getting a Loot Card, its something around 1:9 odds.
The cards are NOT free. PLEASE read the thread before commenting. Your subscription must be paid each month BEFORE you get any cards.
They have a real world monetary value, so that argument is dead as well.
Are you informed that when you subscribe to the game that you get the 5 Booster Packs? No you're not, so you can't come here and say that it has a monetary value. Its the same thing when I buy a pack of cereal and I get a free DVD inside. The DVD inside the cereal box has no monetary value since you're not paying extra for it.
Now if you actually PURCHASE the Booster Packs, that's a different thing. Again, you can argue all you want and tell me that I'm wrong, you're right, you're talking to "provincial" agencies and whatnot. To be honest I got a feeling that SOE/SCEA have their arses quite covered. I'm not even going to bother coming here anymore.
Have a good day sir.
No use discussing things with him, he believes in one thing and hates anyone who doesn't think like him.
Only thing i learned in this topic is we all have different ideas on what is gambling and different views on people being responsible for their own actions, also this is a waste anymore because they supposedly have reported this to higher authorities who will decide if this is legit or not.
So really don't waste your time here, they will just hate on you for anything the think is a defense of SOE.
"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand." - Lewis Thomas
You folks seem to be ignoring the elephant in the room here, it cant be gambling because there is no possability of a prize. There is no prize. As was mentioned earlier in the thread but for different reasons, SOE owns your account, not you. You dont really own your character, so you dont own his virtual cards. The argument that these things have value because people pay money for them is valid, but because selling them for real money is illegal it doesnt much matter. You cant choose to break your contract with SOE and sell/buy these nonexistant things for real cash, and then try to use that as a justification that they're doing something wrong. Essentially people are paying money to get... wait for it....... nothing. Thats not gambling, its stupidity.
According to the Internet gambling law definition, you don't need to be gambling for cash. Here's the definition again from the Unlawful Internet Gambling Act (2006): "the purchase of a chance to win a lottery or other prize the award of which is predominantly subject to chance."
Does this seem to fit the loot cards? It does. I don't think we have a proverbial elephant therefore.
I did find an exception for online games, so let's see if it applies to SWG. Here's the exception: "participation in online games with no pay-to-play aspect." SWG, as we all know is a pay to play game.
So, a chance to win a loot item is purchased, and this is a pay-to-play game. Suggesting that you need to be after cash prizes appears to be incorrect--the definition in the legislation appears to be much broader.
People gamble for chances to win services/experiences all the time, not just money or material goods. In this case, they are taking a gamble that they will win something that will enhance the online game they are already paying for. Also, if you look carefully at the mechanics, you'll see that the loot items are becoming increasingly necessary to remain competitive in the paid-for game. The next buffs avaiable by chance are more powerful. Currently there are buffs and exclusive vehicles, one of which outperforms everything else in the paid-for game. Coming next expansion, we're told, are more powerful buffs and exclusive structures.
Does that address the elephant issue?
P.S. I still hear Dingo's acknowledgement that there is something that falls afoul of legislated standards. The only question that remains for me is, "will this be construed as an illegal sweepstakes or as online gambling?" I'd have to look into the specific differences between these two things, as they're defined in law, and I need to go oversee an exam . If I'm really in need of distraction afterwards, and think that reading through U.S. legislation will hit the spot, I'll check it out lol. Prolly, I'll just listen to Pink Floyd -_^.
Well, I think SOE might be dodging the bullet by providing 5 Free Booster Packs per month to your account. So in a way you're not paying for the Booster Packs unless you want to increase your chances of getting the loot card.
Also Loot Cards can be bought in game with in game currency, so again you really don't have to pay really money to get the loot card.
There's a post on SOE's Forums regarding the odds of getting a Loot Card, its something around 1:9 odds.
The cards are NOT free. PLEASE read the thread before commenting. Your subscription must be paid each month BEFORE you get any cards.
They have a real world monetary value, so that argument is dead as well.
Are you informed that when you subscribe to the game that you get the 5 Booster Packs? No you're not, so you can't come here and say that it has a monetary value. Its the same thing when I buy a pack of cereal and I get a free DVD inside. The DVD inside the cereal box has no monetary value since you're not paying extra for it.
Now if you actually PURCHASE the Booster Packs, that's a different thing. Again, you can argue all you want and tell me that I'm wrong, you're right, you're talking to "provincial" agencies and whatnot. To be honest I got a feeling that SOE/SCEA have their arses quite covered. I'm not even going to bother coming here anymore.
Have a good day sir.
You dont have a clue.
First of all, they do inform you.
Secondly, no sub, no cards.
Understand?
I doubt it.
S
PS : Like they did with the NGE when they had to refund everyone? LOL
You folks seem to be ignoring the elephant in the room here, it cant be gambling because there is no possability of a prize. There is no prize. As was mentioned earlier in the thread but for different reasons, SOE owns your account, not you. You dont really own your character, so you dont own his virtual cards. The argument that these things have value because people pay money for them is valid, but because selling them for real money is illegal it doesnt much matter. You cant choose to break your contract with SOE and sell/buy these nonexistant things for real cash, and then try to use that as a justification that they're doing something wrong. Essentially people are paying money to get... wait for it....... nothing. Thats not gambling, its stupidity.
According to the Internet gambling law definition, you don't need to be gambling for cash. Here's the definition again from the Unlawful Internet Gambling Act (2006): "the purchase of a chance to win a lottery or other prize the award of which is predominantly subject to chance."
Does this seem to fit the loot cards? It does. I don't think we have a proverbial elephant therefore.
I did find an exception for online games, so let's see if it applies to SWG. Here's the exception: "participation in online games with no pay-to-play aspect." SWG, as we all know is a pay to play game.
So, a chance to win a loot item is purchased, and this is a pay-to-play game. Suggesting that you need to be after cash prizes appears to be incorrect--the definition in the legislation appears to be much broader.
People gamble for chances to win services/experiences all the time, not just money or material goods. In this case, they are taking a gamble that they will win something that will enhance the online game they are already paying for. Also, if you look carefully at the mechanics, you'll see that the loot items are becoming increasingly necessary to remain competitive in the paid-for game. The next buffs avaiable by chance are more powerful. Currently there are buffs and exclusive vehicles, one of which outperforms everything else in the paid-for game. Coming next expansion, we're told, are more powerful buffs and exclusive structures.
Does that address the elephant issue?
P.S. I still hear Dingo's acknowledgement that there is something that falls afoul of legislated standards. The only question that remains for me is, "will this be construed as an illegal sweepstakes or as online gambling?" I'd have to look into the specific differences between these two things, as they're defined in law, and I need to go oversee an exam . If I'm really in need of distraction afterwards, and think that reading through U.S. legislation will hit the spot, I'll check it out lol. Prolly, I'll just listen to Pink Floyd -_^.
Well, I think SOE might be dodging the bullet by providing 5 Free Booster Packs per month to your account. So in a way you're not paying for the Booster Packs unless you want to increase your chances of getting the loot card.
Also Loot Cards can be bought in game with in game currency, so again you really don't have to pay really money to get the loot card.
There's a post on SOE's Forums regarding the odds of getting a Loot Card, its something around 1:9 odds.
The cards are NOT free. PLEASE read the thread before commenting. Your subscription must be paid each month BEFORE you get any cards.
They have a real world monetary value, so that argument is dead as well.
Are you informed that when you subscribe to the game that you get the 5 Booster Packs? No you're not, so you can't come here and say that it has a monetary value. Its the same thing when I buy a pack of cereal and I get a free DVD inside. The DVD inside the cereal box has no monetary value since you're not paying extra for it.
Now if you actually PURCHASE the Booster Packs, that's a different thing. Again, you can argue all you want and tell me that I'm wrong, you're right, you're talking to "provincial" agencies and whatnot. To be honest I got a feeling that SOE/SCEA have their arses quite covered. I'm not even going to bother coming here anymore.
Have a good day sir.
No use discussing things with him, he believes in one thing and hates anyone who doesn't think like him.
Only thing i learned in this topic is we all have different ideas on what is gambling and different views on people being responsible for their own actions, also this is a waste anymore because they supposedly have reported this to higher authorities who will decide if this is legit or not.
So really don't waste your time here, they will just hate on you for anything the think is a defense of SOE.
The bridge called, they want their troll back.
Your misguided opinions on "what is gambling" are totally irrelevant. State and Federal law define these things in the USA and not you, your opinions or anything else. This seems to be a difficult concept for you.
You folks seem to be ignoring the elephant in the room here, it cant be gambling because there is no possability of a prize. There is no prize. As was mentioned earlier in the thread but for different reasons, SOE owns your account, not you. You dont really own your character, so you dont own his virtual cards. The argument that these things have value because people pay money for them is valid, but because selling them for real money is illegal it doesnt much matter. You cant choose to break your contract with SOE and sell/buy these nonexistant things for real cash, and then try to use that as a justification that they're doing something wrong. Essentially people are paying money to get... wait for it....... nothing. Thats not gambling, its stupidity.
According to the Internet gambling law definition, you don't need to be gambling for cash. Here's the definition again from the Unlawful Internet Gambling Act (2006): "the purchase of a chance to win a lottery or other prize the award of which is predominantly subject to chance."
Does this seem to fit the loot cards? It does. I don't think we have a proverbial elephant therefore.
I did find an exception for online games, so let's see if it applies to SWG. Here's the exception: "participation in online games with no pay-to-play aspect." SWG, as we all know is a pay to play game.
So, a chance to win a loot item is purchased, and this is a pay-to-play game. Suggesting that you need to be after cash prizes appears to be incorrect--the definition in the legislation appears to be much broader.
People gamble for chances to win services/experiences all the time, not just money or material goods. In this case, they are taking a gamble that they will win something that will enhance the online game they are already paying for. Also, if you look carefully at the mechanics, you'll see that the loot items are becoming increasingly necessary to remain competitive in the paid-for game. The next buffs avaiable by chance are more powerful. Currently there are buffs and exclusive vehicles, one of which outperforms everything else in the paid-for game. Coming next expansion, we're told, are more powerful buffs and exclusive structures.
Does that address the elephant issue?
P.S. I still hear Dingo's acknowledgement that there is something that falls afoul of legislated standards. The only question that remains for me is, "will this be construed as an illegal sweepstakes or as online gambling?" I'd have to look into the specific differences between these two things, as they're defined in law, and I need to go oversee an exam . If I'm really in need of distraction afterwards, and think that reading through U.S. legislation will hit the spot, I'll check it out lol. Prolly, I'll just listen to Pink Floyd -_^.
Well, I think SOE might be dodging the bullet by providing 5 Free Booster Packs per month to your account. So in a way you're not paying for the Booster Packs unless you want to increase your chances of getting the loot card.
Also Loot Cards can be bought in game with in game currency, so again you really don't have to pay really money to get the loot card.
There's a post on SOE's Forums regarding the odds of getting a Loot Card, its something around 1:9 odds.
The cards are NOT free. PLEASE read the thread before commenting. Your subscription must be paid each month BEFORE you get any cards.
They have a real world monetary value, so that argument is dead as well.
Are you informed that when you subscribe to the game that you get the 5 Booster Packs? No you're not, so you can't come here and say that it has a monetary value. Its the same thing when I buy a pack of cereal and I get a free DVD inside. The DVD inside the cereal box has no monetary value since you're not paying extra for it.
Now if you actually PURCHASE the Booster Packs, that's a different thing. Again, you can argue all you want and tell me that I'm wrong, you're right, you're talking to "provincial" agencies and whatnot. To be honest I got a feeling that SOE/SCEA have their arses quite covered. I'm not even going to bother coming here anymore.
Have a good day sir.
No use discussing things with him, he believes in one thing and hates anyone who doesn't think like him.
Only thing i learned in this topic is we all have different ideas on what is gambling and different views on people being responsible for their own actions, also this is a waste anymore because they supposedly have reported this to higher authorities who will decide if this is legit or not.
So really don't waste your time here, they will just hate on you for anything the think is a defense of SOE.
The bridge called, they want their troll back.
S
See told ya
Oh and you fail on learning to read, i said people here have different views on what gambling is, and said you and other supposedly reported this to some higher authorities who will decide if what SOE is doing is legit or not. I'm happy to wait and see what the authorities say, unlike you who seem to get all butt hurt people won't think like you, i personally am interested in where this will end up.
"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand." - Lewis Thomas
I've yet to see you offer any valid arguments in this thread. All you've done is troll and tried to derail it. Calling me Anti-SOE is definitive proof of your infinite ignorance.
I've yet to see you offer any valid arguments in this thread. All you've done is troll and tried to derail it. Calling me Anti-SOE is definitive proof of your infinite ignorance.
S
Where did i call you anti SOE, i'll be here waiting, because i havn't said your name and anti SOE at all, although i do know their are others here anti SOE...so much violence in you, perhaps you should seek help.
Wait why are you talking to me anyways, remember Ignore 4tw? probably should stick with that since you can't handle adult conversations.
"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand." - Lewis Thomas
I've yet to see you offer any valid arguments in this thread. All you've done is troll and tried to derail it. Calling me Anti-SOE is definitive proof of your infinite ignorance.
S
Where did i call you anti SOE, i'll be here waiting, because i havn't said your name and anti SOE at all, although i do know their are others here anti SOE...so much violence in you, perhaps you should seek help.
Quote from Scaleborn :
"So really don't waste your time here, they will just hate on you for anything the think is a defense of SOE."
ROFL, that old chestnut. "Im losing the argument so Ill try and question his mental health".
Pathetic, but not unexpected.
Violence? What are you on about? Seriously, take your meds please.
Give it a break and just accept the fact you're wrong.
Tx in advance
S
PS : Im in my office, which doesnt automatically log me in to MMORPG, so I see your trolling, unfortunately. Im logging in now so I dont have to see anymore of your attempts to derail the thread with unobjective nonsense.
I've yet to see you offer any valid arguments in this thread. All you've done is troll and tried to derail it. Calling me Anti-SOE is definitive proof of your infinite ignorance.
S
Where did i call you anti SOE, i'll be here waiting, because i havn't said your name and anti SOE at all, although i do know their are others here anti SOE...so much violence in you, perhaps you should seek help.
Quote from Scaleborn :
"So really don't waste your time here, they will just hate on you for anything the think is a defense of SOE."
ROFL, that old chestnut. "Im losing the argument so Ill try and question his mental health".
Pathetic, but not unexpected.
Violence? What are you on about? Seriously, take your meds please.
Give it a break and just accept the fact you're wrong.
Tx in advance
S
so how does that translate into you are anti SOE seriously? i don't see you name there either. as i said there are others here that are anti SOE nowhere did i say you are, i do understand you are upset at them for the tcg -shrugs- and i'll admit i'm wrong when they shutdown the TCG thanks
Edit: and i never argue i debate stuff, argueing is a waste of time i enjoy a good debate, you simply don't seem capable of handling it, its like watching someone from grade school i'm right and your wrong waaa lol
"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand." - Lewis Thomas
I've read a lot of defenses for the SWG loot items embedded in the TCG I've also read a lot of replies to these defenses. I decided to summarize these all here: consolidate if you will, since there are so many aspects to this discussion, and it's hard to find specific points in the long threads.
Defense 1: It's just like buying random packs of baseball cards
Response to 1: The SWG loot items are not part of the TCG card game. They are random rewards for another online service. People after the loot are not purchasing TCG card packs hoping to get cards for the card game. They have been enticed to gamble for items that will give them advantages in SWG.
Defense 2: It's just like buying a coke and winning a prize.
Response to 2: Coke and other promotionals have verified odds of winning and a no purchase necessary clause as part of the promotion. This prevents gambling for the chance outcome. The loot items in the TCG do not function this way. Money must change hands in some fashion to enable you to play. The more money you spend, the more people hope to increase their odds of winning, ever so slightly.
Defense 3: You don't win cash or material goods, so you can't call it gambling.
Response to 3: Other contests offer prizes that are not cash or material goods. These other prizes are in fact included in internet gambling legislation. Promotions that offer experiences as rewards must also have verified odds of winning and a no purchase necessary clause.
Defense 4: This is no different than WoW's card game.
Response to 4: I'm told that Wow's card game has printed cards that you own, and that the odds of winning are publicly verified. I'm also told that cards giving combat advantages to WoW subscribers have been recoded so that this is no longer the case.
Defense 5: Only SOE haters bitter over the NGE are using this as an excuse to hate on Sony.
Response to 5: A very avid fan of SWG is an outspoken opponent to the way the loot cards operate. He's even been labelled a "fanboi" (wrongly in my view) on occasion. He loves SWG, but doesn't believe that the loot items embedded in the TCG are ethical. There are numerous complaint threads from current players of SWG on the official boards. They are full of people expressing their concerns about this situation. Unfortunately, I hear that they get deleted and locked frequently. Personally I see this as SOE once again trying to suppress the truth to sell their spin.
Defence 6: SOE's EULA allows them to do this to people.
Response to 6: I imagine this will be tested. Judging from the way EULAs have been falling by the wayside when tested in court, I would not bet on this EULA standing up, especially under these circumstances.
Defense 7: Anyone who thinks this is illegal is an idiot.
Response to 7: Namecalling is not a defense.
Defense 8: This would be legal in some countries outside the U.S..
Honestly someone who spends hundreds of dollars trying to get an item in a game only has themself to blame. That's the problem with things today, everyone has to try to blame everyone else but themself. Someone is overweight? Well lets blame McDonalds or some other fast food place and not ourselves for eating 17 double cheeseburgers a day.
If a person spends that much money trying to get some in game item they are probably the same type of person who buys a lot of in game money, power leveling, and that sort of thing. From what I've seen none of the loot cards are things that are absolutely necessary to play the game, its just extra things that people for some reason need to have.
People need to take accountability for what they do.
Honestly someone who spends hundreds of dollars trying to get an item in a game only has themself to blame. That's the problem with things today, everyone has to try to blame everyone else but themself. Someone is overweight? Well lets blame McDonalds or some other fast food place and not ourselves for eating 17 double cheeseburgers a day. If a person spends that much money trying to get some in game item they are probably the same type of person who buys a lot of in game money, power leveling, and that sort of thing. From what I've seen none of the loot cards are things that are absolutely necessary to play the game, its just extra things that people for some reason need to have. People need to take accountability for what they do.
The bridge called, they want their troll back. Your misguided opinions on "what is gambling" are totally irrelevant. State and Federal law define these things in the USA and not you, your opinions or anything else. This seems to be a difficult concept for you. S
I jumped on the "it's not gambling" bandwagon for awhile...but even the above quote states that this can only be addressed by State and Fed authorities on Gambling. I can agree with this...just waiting for their decision. So right now ...we're all wrong until proven otherwise..even Sharkypal.
Honestly someone who spends hundreds of dollars trying to get an item in a game only has themself to blame. That's the problem with things today, everyone has to try to blame everyone else but themself. Someone is overweight? Well lets blame McDonalds or some other fast food place and not ourselves for eating 17 double cheeseburgers a day. If a person spends that much money trying to get some in game item they are probably the same type of person who buys a lot of in game money, power leveling, and that sort of thing. From what I've seen none of the loot cards are things that are absolutely necessary to play the game, its just extra things that people for some reason need to have. People need to take accountability for what they do.
And what about the enablers?
I don't buy the whole "enabler" mentality. Sure there are bad people out there who will do anything for some advantage....and who encourage a certain behavior in another...for whatever reason. To Me though...using "enabler" is just another way to place blame regarding a certain issue. A fluffy..feel good.."it's not my fault" crutch that keeps people from focusing on the fact that they have a f@cking problem and need to address it promptly..Grow some figurative "balls" and take reponsibility for Crikes sake. I have some pounds to lose...you won't find me sueing OUTBACK b/c their steaks are so pretty in the picture..affordable and tasty. I blame no one but myself and I will either take control..man up...and do something about it ...or die of a stroke/heart attack/(insert your favorite Obesity related disease here)
The bridge called, they want their troll back. Your misguided opinions on "what is gambling" are totally irrelevant. State and Federal law define these things in the USA and not you, your opinions or anything else. This seems to be a difficult concept for you. S
I jumped on the "it's not gambling" bandwagon for awhile...but even the above quote states that this can only be addressed by State and Fed authorities on Gambling. I can agree with this...just waiting for their decision. So right now ...we're all wrong until proven otherwise..even Sharkypal.
Along these lines, there are state laws, federal laws, gambling laws, online gambling laws, sweepstakes laws, product promotion laws, contract laws etc. that all speak to this situation. Someone with a lot of "law" school and a high paying job will need to sift through all the above (and more) to determine which laws apply to the loot item, TCG mechanic before we can hope to get a definitive answer.
Meanwhile, I express my personal opinion simply as an MMO gamer that is interested in the outcome. I'm interested largely because I think MMOs can be a very fun experience. I also think they can facilitate "community." I think MMO companies can do business in ways that promote "fun" and "community." I also think they can do business in ways that are hurtful and destructive, in monetary and other ways.
Why I take such a keen interest in these kinds of issues probably has something to do with my real life background. I've worked with the Criminal Justice system in Canada in one capacity or another, actually since 1988. Probably my most recognizable roles would have been to provide psychological evaluations of accused persons, and to provide mental health counselling to victims of crime. I've also been involved in consultation for legislation related to laws affecting child welfare.
I happened to stumble into the world of MMO's when my sister bought me one thinking it was a board game lol. I was delighted to meet an online community of people that I quite like. I've met excellent people who are anything from doctor's, to home-makers, to police officers, to soldiers, to mayors and manufacturers, and more as well. The people I've met are a real blessing. As a result, I take an interest in things that add joy to their lives, or add frustration. I also take an interest in things that seem to relieve them of their hard earned cash via deceptive or manipulative means. That, tbh, I don't much like.
Frankly, I think people have enough strife and b.s. in their "day jobs," so to speak. MMO's offer a nice way to take a small break from the daily grind and share a virtual adventure with like-minded others. Some companies seem to share and promote this vision. Others, however, seem to see MMO's as an opportunity to exploit and manipulate, for nothing more than monetary gain. The first group of companies earns their money honestly by providing a relaxing virtual experience. They deserve every penny they honestly earn. The second group of companies warrants a lot of scrutiny, from consumers certainly, and possibly from the authorities as well.
Comments
"I've read some posts about people losing a lot of money trying to get a specific loot card in the StarWars TCG. Has that happened to anyone on this board? I'd be curious to know what you were after, how much it cost you, and whether or not you ever actually got what you were looking for."
I lost my house, my dog and all my self respect...I was hunting for that "Vets" go away card....
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
I know 2 people who have lost very large sums of money - both after the Sith Speeder (over 400 pounds each and 1 got some crappy prizes, the other nothing). I also know of others who have wasted smaller amounts.
It is objectionable on so many levels.
S
This.
For a SWG player that isnt interested in TCG (its a seperate game), but is interested in the new features.
That person has to buy boosterpacks for a CHANCE on those ingame items.
For every boosterpack that doesnt have a lootcard (reward), he loses money (risk).
You just explained why TCG is gambling for someone who wants the new items offered by TCG and isnt interested in playing the cardgame.
Well, by George W. Bush... ya got me.
So they bought a pack of cards for a collectible card game and then they choose not to play it.
It is still their choice not to play what they bought
It's still not gambling whether or not those cards have use outside the card game.
Sony is selling a card game. That is the big difference.
Sony is not just and only running a give me $10 and we'll spin the wheel and see if you win or lose. They are selling a product and those people who choose to are purchasing it.
I fully understand and get your point that it seems immoral and wrong to do... hell I agree and hope SOE burns in hell for all of eternity.
But that doesn't make it gambling or illegal.
Because, in the end my dear friends, you are buying a product... and not a lottery ticket.
Those who choose not to play the game after purchasing it still bought a game.... and not a lottery ticket.
Well, I only used your definition on what gambling is. For the simple reason that the lootcards are not to be used in the TCG itself.
Anyway, the reason why the players get so upset is that the new 2 buildings are items that have been asked for for ages.
There you have the barn that can show animals walk around that are still hatched. Awesome to have for a beastmaster to show his stock to potential customers. But to get it, they have to buy booster packs in a totally different game! So apparently their AAA MMO monthly fee isnt enough to access all features.
Or what about structure traders? They also asked for new buildings to craft for ages. Now there are 2 released that actually might sell good, they dont get to craft it.
The gambling aspect is my problem with this. Im not interested in those buildings, but I do understand that SWG players would have to buy boosterpacks from a game they dont play to get SWG features. This is such a cheap scam and the way of obtaining such an item is gambling by your definition.
This is also why all analogies with other TCG dont hold and why this isnt simply RMT. RMT guarantees you the item/feature you WANT like an expansion pack does.
This.
For a SWG player that isnt interested in TCG (its a seperate game), but is interested in the new features.
That person has to buy boosterpacks for a CHANCE on those ingame items.
For every boosterpack that doesnt have a lootcard (reward), he loses money (risk).
You just explained why TCG is gambling for someone who wants the new items offered by TCG and isnt interested in playing the cardgame.
Well, by George W. Bush... ya got me.
So they bought a pack of cards for a collectible card game and then they choose not to play it.
It is still their choice not to play what they bought
It's still not gambling whether or not those cards have use outside the card game.
Sony is selling a card game. That is the big difference.
Sony is not just and only running a give me $10 and we'll spin the wheel and see if you win or lose. They are selling a product and those people who choose to are purchasing it.
I fully understand and get your point that it seems immoral and wrong to do... hell I agree and hope SOE burns in hell for all of eternity.
But that doesn't make it gambling or illegal.
Because, in the end my dear friends, you are buying a product... and not a lottery ticket.
Those who choose not to play the game after purchasing it still bought a game.... and not a lottery ticket.
Well, I only used your definition on what gambling is. For the simple reason that the lootcards are not to be used in the TCG itself.
Anyway, the reason why the players get so upset is that the new 2 buildings are items that have been asked for for ages.
There you have the barn that can show animals walk around that are still hatched. Awesome to have for a beastmaster to show his stock to potential customers. But to get it, they have to buy booster packs in a totally different game! So apparently their AAA MMO monthly fee isnt enough to access all features.
Or what about structure traders? They also asked for new buildings to craft for ages. Now there are 2 released that actually might sell good, they dont get to craft it.
The gambling aspect is my problem with this. Im not interested in those buildings, but I do understand that SWG players would have to buy boosterpacks from a game they dont play to get SWG features. This is such a cheap scam and the way of obtaining such an item is gambling by your definition.
This is also why all analogies with other TCG dont hold and why this isnt simply RMT. RMT guarantees you the item/feature you WANT like an expansion pack does.
QFT.
Excellent and concise post.
Not to mention that the Barn was suggested by players.
S
I think they should require a looted in-game holocron that when used gives the player a chance to be able to buy the booster packs, which then gives the player a chance to get a special card.
this would fix everything :P
According to the Internet gambling law definition, you don't need to be gambling for cash. Here's the definition again from the Unlawful Internet Gambling Act (2006): "the purchase of a chance to win a lottery or other prize the award of which is predominantly subject to chance."
Does this seem to fit the loot cards? It does. I don't think we have a proverbial elephant therefore.
I did find an exception for online games, so let's see if it applies to SWG. Here's the exception: "participation in online games with no pay-to-play aspect." SWG, as we all know is a pay to play game.
So, a chance to win a loot item is purchased, and this is a pay-to-play game. Suggesting that you need to be after cash prizes appears to be incorrect--the definition in the legislation appears to be much broader.
People gamble for chances to win services/experiences all the time, not just money or material goods. In this case, they are taking a gamble that they will win something that will enhance the online game they are already paying for. Also, if you look carefully at the mechanics, you'll see that the loot items are becoming increasingly necessary to remain competitive in the paid-for game. The next buffs avaiable by chance are more powerful. Currently there are buffs and exclusive vehicles, one of which outperforms everything else in the paid-for game. Coming next expansion, we're told, are more powerful buffs and exclusive structures.
Does that address the elephant issue?
P.S. I still hear Dingo's acknowledgement that there is something that falls afoul of legislated standards. The only question that remains for me is, "will this be construed as an illegal sweepstakes or as online gambling?" I'd have to look into the specific differences between these two things, as they're defined in law, and I need to go oversee an exam
. If I'm really in need of distraction afterwards, and think that reading through U.S. legislation will hit the spot, I'll check it out lol. Prolly, I'll just listen to Pink Floyd -_^.
if it falls under illegal lottery, the elephant is also irrelevant. The prize in a lottery as defined can be something as simple as bragging rights.
According to the Internet gambling law definition, you don't need to be gambling for cash. Here's the definition again from the Unlawful Internet Gambling Act (2006): "the purchase of a chance to win a lottery or other prize the award of which is predominantly subject to chance."
Does this seem to fit the loot cards? It does. I don't think we have a proverbial elephant therefore.
I did find an exception for online games, so let's see if it applies to SWG. Here's the exception: "participation in online games with no pay-to-play aspect." SWG, as we all know is a pay to play game.
So, a chance to win a loot item is purchased, and this is a pay-to-play game. Suggesting that you need to be after cash prizes appears to be incorrect--the definition in the legislation appears to be much broader.
People gamble for chances to win services/experiences all the time, not just money or material goods. In this case, they are taking a gamble that they will win something that will enhance the online game they are already paying for. Also, if you look carefully at the mechanics, you'll see that the loot items are becoming increasingly necessary to remain competitive in the paid-for game. The next buffs avaiable by chance are more powerful. Currently there are buffs and exclusive vehicles, one of which outperforms everything else in the paid-for game. Coming next expansion, we're told, are more powerful buffs and exclusive structures.
Does that address the elephant issue?
P.S. I still hear Dingo's acknowledgement that there is something that falls afoul of legislated standards. The only question that remains for me is, "will this be construed as an illegal sweepstakes or as online gambling?" I'd have to look into the specific differences between these two things, as they're defined in law, and I need to go oversee an exam
. If I'm really in need of distraction afterwards, and think that reading through U.S. legislation will hit the spot, I'll check it out lol. Prolly, I'll just listen to Pink Floyd -_^.
Well, I think SOE might be dodging the bullet by providing 5 Free Booster Packs per month to your account. So in a way you're not paying for the Booster Packs unless you want to increase your chances of getting the loot card.
Also Loot Cards can be bought in game with in game currency, so again you really don't have to pay really money to get the loot card.
There's a post on SOE's Forums regarding the odds of getting a Loot Card, its something around 1:9 odds.
According to the Internet gambling law definition, you don't need to be gambling for cash. Here's the definition again from the Unlawful Internet Gambling Act (2006): "the purchase of a chance to win a lottery or other prize the award of which is predominantly subject to chance."
Does this seem to fit the loot cards? It does. I don't think we have a proverbial elephant therefore.
I did find an exception for online games, so let's see if it applies to SWG. Here's the exception: "participation in online games with no pay-to-play aspect." SWG, as we all know is a pay to play game.
So, a chance to win a loot item is purchased, and this is a pay-to-play game. Suggesting that you need to be after cash prizes appears to be incorrect--the definition in the legislation appears to be much broader.
People gamble for chances to win services/experiences all the time, not just money or material goods. In this case, they are taking a gamble that they will win something that will enhance the online game they are already paying for. Also, if you look carefully at the mechanics, you'll see that the loot items are becoming increasingly necessary to remain competitive in the paid-for game. The next buffs avaiable by chance are more powerful. Currently there are buffs and exclusive vehicles, one of which outperforms everything else in the paid-for game. Coming next expansion, we're told, are more powerful buffs and exclusive structures.
Does that address the elephant issue?
P.S. I still hear Dingo's acknowledgement that there is something that falls afoul of legislated standards. The only question that remains for me is, "will this be construed as an illegal sweepstakes or as online gambling?" I'd have to look into the specific differences between these two things, as they're defined in law, and I need to go oversee an exam
. If I'm really in need of distraction afterwards, and think that reading through U.S. legislation will hit the spot, I'll check it out lol. Prolly, I'll just listen to Pink Floyd -_^.
Well, I think SOE might be dodging the bullet by providing 5 Free Booster Packs per month to your account. So in a way you're not paying for the Booster Packs unless you want to increase your chances of getting the loot card.
Also Loot Cards can be bought in game with in game currency, so again you really don't have to pay really money to get the loot card.
There's a post on SOE's Forums regarding the odds of getting a Loot Card, its something around 1:9 odds.
The cards are NOT free. PLEASE read the thread before commenting. Your subscription must be paid each month BEFORE you get any cards.
They have a real world monetary value, so that argument is dead as well.
A post is not a Legal statement. I could start my own lottery and post "odds". That doesn't mean to say there is any truth to them unless my site is regulated, which SOE isn't, YET.
S
According to the Internet gambling law definition, you don't need to be gambling for cash. Here's the definition again from the Unlawful Internet Gambling Act (2006): "the purchase of a chance to win a lottery or other prize the award of which is predominantly subject to chance."
Does this seem to fit the loot cards? It does. I don't think we have a proverbial elephant therefore.
I did find an exception for online games, so let's see if it applies to SWG. Here's the exception: "participation in online games with no pay-to-play aspect." SWG, as we all know is a pay to play game.
So, a chance to win a loot item is purchased, and this is a pay-to-play game. Suggesting that you need to be after cash prizes appears to be incorrect--the definition in the legislation appears to be much broader.
People gamble for chances to win services/experiences all the time, not just money or material goods. In this case, they are taking a gamble that they will win something that will enhance the online game they are already paying for. Also, if you look carefully at the mechanics, you'll see that the loot items are becoming increasingly necessary to remain competitive in the paid-for game. The next buffs avaiable by chance are more powerful. Currently there are buffs and exclusive vehicles, one of which outperforms everything else in the paid-for game. Coming next expansion, we're told, are more powerful buffs and exclusive structures.
Does that address the elephant issue?
P.S. I still hear Dingo's acknowledgement that there is something that falls afoul of legislated standards. The only question that remains for me is, "will this be construed as an illegal sweepstakes or as online gambling?" I'd have to look into the specific differences between these two things, as they're defined in law, and I need to go oversee an exam
. If I'm really in need of distraction afterwards, and think that reading through U.S. legislation will hit the spot, I'll check it out lol. Prolly, I'll just listen to Pink Floyd -_^.
Well, I think SOE might be dodging the bullet by providing 5 Free Booster Packs per month to your account. So in a way you're not paying for the Booster Packs unless you want to increase your chances of getting the loot card.
Also Loot Cards can be bought in game with in game currency, so again you really don't have to pay really money to get the loot card.
There's a post on SOE's Forums regarding the odds of getting a Loot Card, its something around 1:9 odds.
The cards are NOT free. PLEASE read the thread before commenting. Your subscription must be paid each month BEFORE you get any cards.
They have a real world monetary value, so that argument is dead as well.
Are you informed that when you subscribe to the game that you get the 5 Booster Packs? No you're not, so you can't come here and say that it has a monetary value. Its the same thing when I buy a pack of cereal and I get a free DVD inside. The DVD inside the cereal box has no monetary value since you're not paying extra for it.
Now if you actually PURCHASE the Booster Packs, that's a different thing. Again, you can argue all you want and tell me that I'm wrong, you're right, you're talking to "provincial" agencies and whatnot. To be honest I got a feeling that SOE/SCEA have their arses quite covered. I'm not even going to bother coming here anymore.
Have a good day sir.
According to the Internet gambling law definition, you don't need to be gambling for cash. Here's the definition again from the Unlawful Internet Gambling Act (2006): "the purchase of a chance to win a lottery or other prize the award of which is predominantly subject to chance."
Does this seem to fit the loot cards? It does. I don't think we have a proverbial elephant therefore.
I did find an exception for online games, so let's see if it applies to SWG. Here's the exception: "participation in online games with no pay-to-play aspect." SWG, as we all know is a pay to play game.
So, a chance to win a loot item is purchased, and this is a pay-to-play game. Suggesting that you need to be after cash prizes appears to be incorrect--the definition in the legislation appears to be much broader.
People gamble for chances to win services/experiences all the time, not just money or material goods. In this case, they are taking a gamble that they will win something that will enhance the online game they are already paying for. Also, if you look carefully at the mechanics, you'll see that the loot items are becoming increasingly necessary to remain competitive in the paid-for game. The next buffs avaiable by chance are more powerful. Currently there are buffs and exclusive vehicles, one of which outperforms everything else in the paid-for game. Coming next expansion, we're told, are more powerful buffs and exclusive structures.
Does that address the elephant issue?
P.S. I still hear Dingo's acknowledgement that there is something that falls afoul of legislated standards. The only question that remains for me is, "will this be construed as an illegal sweepstakes or as online gambling?" I'd have to look into the specific differences between these two things, as they're defined in law, and I need to go oversee an exam
. If I'm really in need of distraction afterwards, and think that reading through U.S. legislation will hit the spot, I'll check it out lol. Prolly, I'll just listen to Pink Floyd -_^.
Well, I think SOE might be dodging the bullet by providing 5 Free Booster Packs per month to your account. So in a way you're not paying for the Booster Packs unless you want to increase your chances of getting the loot card.
Also Loot Cards can be bought in game with in game currency, so again you really don't have to pay really money to get the loot card.
There's a post on SOE's Forums regarding the odds of getting a Loot Card, its something around 1:9 odds.
The cards are NOT free. PLEASE read the thread before commenting. Your subscription must be paid each month BEFORE you get any cards.
They have a real world monetary value, so that argument is dead as well.
Are you informed that when you subscribe to the game that you get the 5 Booster Packs? No you're not, so you can't come here and say that it has a monetary value. Its the same thing when I buy a pack of cereal and I get a free DVD inside. The DVD inside the cereal box has no monetary value since you're not paying extra for it.
Now if you actually PURCHASE the Booster Packs, that's a different thing. Again, you can argue all you want and tell me that I'm wrong, you're right, you're talking to "provincial" agencies and whatnot. To be honest I got a feeling that SOE/SCEA have their arses quite covered. I'm not even going to bother coming here anymore.
Have a good day sir.
No use discussing things with him, he believes in one thing and hates anyone who doesn't think like him.
Only thing i learned in this topic is we all have different ideas on what is gambling and different views on people being responsible for their own actions, also this is a waste anymore because they supposedly have reported this to higher authorities who will decide if this is legit or not.
So really don't waste your time here, they will just hate on you for anything the think is a defense of SOE.
"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand."
- Lewis Thomas
According to the Internet gambling law definition, you don't need to be gambling for cash. Here's the definition again from the Unlawful Internet Gambling Act (2006): "the purchase of a chance to win a lottery or other prize the award of which is predominantly subject to chance."
Does this seem to fit the loot cards? It does. I don't think we have a proverbial elephant therefore.
I did find an exception for online games, so let's see if it applies to SWG. Here's the exception: "participation in online games with no pay-to-play aspect." SWG, as we all know is a pay to play game.
So, a chance to win a loot item is purchased, and this is a pay-to-play game. Suggesting that you need to be after cash prizes appears to be incorrect--the definition in the legislation appears to be much broader.
People gamble for chances to win services/experiences all the time, not just money or material goods. In this case, they are taking a gamble that they will win something that will enhance the online game they are already paying for. Also, if you look carefully at the mechanics, you'll see that the loot items are becoming increasingly necessary to remain competitive in the paid-for game. The next buffs avaiable by chance are more powerful. Currently there are buffs and exclusive vehicles, one of which outperforms everything else in the paid-for game. Coming next expansion, we're told, are more powerful buffs and exclusive structures.
Does that address the elephant issue?
P.S. I still hear Dingo's acknowledgement that there is something that falls afoul of legislated standards. The only question that remains for me is, "will this be construed as an illegal sweepstakes or as online gambling?" I'd have to look into the specific differences between these two things, as they're defined in law, and I need to go oversee an exam
. If I'm really in need of distraction afterwards, and think that reading through U.S. legislation will hit the spot, I'll check it out lol. Prolly, I'll just listen to Pink Floyd -_^.
Well, I think SOE might be dodging the bullet by providing 5 Free Booster Packs per month to your account. So in a way you're not paying for the Booster Packs unless you want to increase your chances of getting the loot card.
Also Loot Cards can be bought in game with in game currency, so again you really don't have to pay really money to get the loot card.
There's a post on SOE's Forums regarding the odds of getting a Loot Card, its something around 1:9 odds.
The cards are NOT free. PLEASE read the thread before commenting. Your subscription must be paid each month BEFORE you get any cards.
They have a real world monetary value, so that argument is dead as well.
Are you informed that when you subscribe to the game that you get the 5 Booster Packs? No you're not, so you can't come here and say that it has a monetary value. Its the same thing when I buy a pack of cereal and I get a free DVD inside. The DVD inside the cereal box has no monetary value since you're not paying extra for it.
Now if you actually PURCHASE the Booster Packs, that's a different thing. Again, you can argue all you want and tell me that I'm wrong, you're right, you're talking to "provincial" agencies and whatnot. To be honest I got a feeling that SOE/SCEA have their arses quite covered. I'm not even going to bother coming here anymore.
Have a good day sir.
You dont have a clue.
First of all, they do inform you.
Secondly, no sub, no cards.
Understand?
I doubt it.
S
PS : Like they did with the NGE when they had to refund everyone? LOL
According to the Internet gambling law definition, you don't need to be gambling for cash. Here's the definition again from the Unlawful Internet Gambling Act (2006): "the purchase of a chance to win a lottery or other prize the award of which is predominantly subject to chance."
Does this seem to fit the loot cards? It does. I don't think we have a proverbial elephant therefore.
I did find an exception for online games, so let's see if it applies to SWG. Here's the exception: "participation in online games with no pay-to-play aspect." SWG, as we all know is a pay to play game.
So, a chance to win a loot item is purchased, and this is a pay-to-play game. Suggesting that you need to be after cash prizes appears to be incorrect--the definition in the legislation appears to be much broader.
People gamble for chances to win services/experiences all the time, not just money or material goods. In this case, they are taking a gamble that they will win something that will enhance the online game they are already paying for. Also, if you look carefully at the mechanics, you'll see that the loot items are becoming increasingly necessary to remain competitive in the paid-for game. The next buffs avaiable by chance are more powerful. Currently there are buffs and exclusive vehicles, one of which outperforms everything else in the paid-for game. Coming next expansion, we're told, are more powerful buffs and exclusive structures.
Does that address the elephant issue?
P.S. I still hear Dingo's acknowledgement that there is something that falls afoul of legislated standards. The only question that remains for me is, "will this be construed as an illegal sweepstakes or as online gambling?" I'd have to look into the specific differences between these two things, as they're defined in law, and I need to go oversee an exam
. If I'm really in need of distraction afterwards, and think that reading through U.S. legislation will hit the spot, I'll check it out lol. Prolly, I'll just listen to Pink Floyd -_^.
Well, I think SOE might be dodging the bullet by providing 5 Free Booster Packs per month to your account. So in a way you're not paying for the Booster Packs unless you want to increase your chances of getting the loot card.
Also Loot Cards can be bought in game with in game currency, so again you really don't have to pay really money to get the loot card.
There's a post on SOE's Forums regarding the odds of getting a Loot Card, its something around 1:9 odds.
The cards are NOT free. PLEASE read the thread before commenting. Your subscription must be paid each month BEFORE you get any cards.
They have a real world monetary value, so that argument is dead as well.
Are you informed that when you subscribe to the game that you get the 5 Booster Packs? No you're not, so you can't come here and say that it has a monetary value. Its the same thing when I buy a pack of cereal and I get a free DVD inside. The DVD inside the cereal box has no monetary value since you're not paying extra for it.
Now if you actually PURCHASE the Booster Packs, that's a different thing. Again, you can argue all you want and tell me that I'm wrong, you're right, you're talking to "provincial" agencies and whatnot. To be honest I got a feeling that SOE/SCEA have their arses quite covered. I'm not even going to bother coming here anymore.
Have a good day sir.
No use discussing things with him, he believes in one thing and hates anyone who doesn't think like him.
Only thing i learned in this topic is we all have different ideas on what is gambling and different views on people being responsible for their own actions, also this is a waste anymore because they supposedly have reported this to higher authorities who will decide if this is legit or not.
So really don't waste your time here, they will just hate on you for anything the think is a defense of SOE.
The bridge called, they want their troll back.
Your misguided opinions on "what is gambling" are totally irrelevant. State and Federal law define these things in the USA and not you, your opinions or anything else. This seems to be a difficult concept for you.
S
According to the Internet gambling law definition, you don't need to be gambling for cash. Here's the definition again from the Unlawful Internet Gambling Act (2006): "the purchase of a chance to win a lottery or other prize the award of which is predominantly subject to chance."
Does this seem to fit the loot cards? It does. I don't think we have a proverbial elephant therefore.
I did find an exception for online games, so let's see if it applies to SWG. Here's the exception: "participation in online games with no pay-to-play aspect." SWG, as we all know is a pay to play game.
So, a chance to win a loot item is purchased, and this is a pay-to-play game. Suggesting that you need to be after cash prizes appears to be incorrect--the definition in the legislation appears to be much broader.
People gamble for chances to win services/experiences all the time, not just money or material goods. In this case, they are taking a gamble that they will win something that will enhance the online game they are already paying for. Also, if you look carefully at the mechanics, you'll see that the loot items are becoming increasingly necessary to remain competitive in the paid-for game. The next buffs avaiable by chance are more powerful. Currently there are buffs and exclusive vehicles, one of which outperforms everything else in the paid-for game. Coming next expansion, we're told, are more powerful buffs and exclusive structures.
Does that address the elephant issue?
P.S. I still hear Dingo's acknowledgement that there is something that falls afoul of legislated standards. The only question that remains for me is, "will this be construed as an illegal sweepstakes or as online gambling?" I'd have to look into the specific differences between these two things, as they're defined in law, and I need to go oversee an exam
. If I'm really in need of distraction afterwards, and think that reading through U.S. legislation will hit the spot, I'll check it out lol. Prolly, I'll just listen to Pink Floyd -_^.
Well, I think SOE might be dodging the bullet by providing 5 Free Booster Packs per month to your account. So in a way you're not paying for the Booster Packs unless you want to increase your chances of getting the loot card.
Also Loot Cards can be bought in game with in game currency, so again you really don't have to pay really money to get the loot card.
There's a post on SOE's Forums regarding the odds of getting a Loot Card, its something around 1:9 odds.
The cards are NOT free. PLEASE read the thread before commenting. Your subscription must be paid each month BEFORE you get any cards.
They have a real world monetary value, so that argument is dead as well.
Are you informed that when you subscribe to the game that you get the 5 Booster Packs? No you're not, so you can't come here and say that it has a monetary value. Its the same thing when I buy a pack of cereal and I get a free DVD inside. The DVD inside the cereal box has no monetary value since you're not paying extra for it.
Now if you actually PURCHASE the Booster Packs, that's a different thing. Again, you can argue all you want and tell me that I'm wrong, you're right, you're talking to "provincial" agencies and whatnot. To be honest I got a feeling that SOE/SCEA have their arses quite covered. I'm not even going to bother coming here anymore.
Have a good day sir.
No use discussing things with him, he believes in one thing and hates anyone who doesn't think like him.
Only thing i learned in this topic is we all have different ideas on what is gambling and different views on people being responsible for their own actions, also this is a waste anymore because they supposedly have reported this to higher authorities who will decide if this is legit or not.
So really don't waste your time here, they will just hate on you for anything the think is a defense of SOE.
The bridge called, they want their troll back.
S
See told ya
Oh and you fail on learning to read, i said people here have different views on what gambling is, and said you and other supposedly reported this to some higher authorities who will decide if what SOE is doing is legit or not. I'm happy to wait and see what the authorities say, unlike you who seem to get all butt hurt people won't think like you, i personally am interested in where this will end up.
"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand."
- Lewis Thomas
I've yet to see you offer any valid arguments in this thread. All you've done is troll and tried to derail it. Calling me Anti-SOE is definitive proof of your infinite ignorance.
S
I've yet to see you offer any valid arguments in this thread. All you've done is troll and tried to derail it. Calling me Anti-SOE is definitive proof of your infinite ignorance.
S
Where did i call you anti SOE, i'll be here waiting, because i havn't said your name and anti SOE at all, although i do know their are others here anti SOE...so much violence in you, perhaps you should seek help.
Wait why are you talking to me anyways, remember Ignore 4tw? probably should stick with that since you can't handle adult conversations.
"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand."
- Lewis Thomas
I've yet to see you offer any valid arguments in this thread. All you've done is troll and tried to derail it. Calling me Anti-SOE is definitive proof of your infinite ignorance.
S
Where did i call you anti SOE, i'll be here waiting, because i havn't said your name and anti SOE at all, although i do know their are others here anti SOE...so much violence in you, perhaps you should seek help.
Quote from Scaleborn :
"So really don't waste your time here, they will just hate on you for anything the think is a defense of SOE."
ROFL, that old chestnut. "Im losing the argument so Ill try and question his mental health".
Pathetic, but not unexpected.
Violence? What are you on about? Seriously, take your meds please.
Give it a break and just accept the fact you're wrong.
Tx in advance
S
PS : Im in my office, which doesnt automatically log me in to MMORPG, so I see your trolling, unfortunately. Im logging in now so I dont have to see anymore of your attempts to derail the thread with unobjective nonsense.
I've yet to see you offer any valid arguments in this thread. All you've done is troll and tried to derail it. Calling me Anti-SOE is definitive proof of your infinite ignorance.
S
Where did i call you anti SOE, i'll be here waiting, because i havn't said your name and anti SOE at all, although i do know their are others here anti SOE...so much violence in you, perhaps you should seek help.
Quote from Scaleborn :
"So really don't waste your time here, they will just hate on you for anything the think is a defense of SOE."
ROFL, that old chestnut. "Im losing the argument so Ill try and question his mental health".
Pathetic, but not unexpected.
Violence? What are you on about? Seriously, take your meds please.
Give it a break and just accept the fact you're wrong.
Tx in advance
S
so how does that translate into you are anti SOE seriously? i don't see you name there either. as i said there are others here that are anti SOE nowhere did i say you are, i do understand you are upset at them for the tcg -shrugs- and i'll admit i'm wrong when they shutdown the TCG thanks
Edit: and i never argue i debate stuff, argueing is a waste of time i enjoy a good debate, you simply don't seem capable of handling it, its like watching someone from grade school i'm right and your wrong waaa lol
"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand."
- Lewis Thomas
you said butthurt!
I've read a lot of defenses for the SWG loot items embedded in the TCG I've also read a lot of replies to these defenses. I decided to summarize these all here: consolidate if you will, since there are so many aspects to this discussion, and it's hard to find specific points in the long threads.
Defense 1: It's just like buying random packs of baseball cards
Response to 1: The SWG loot items are not part of the TCG card game. They are random rewards for another online service. People after the loot are not purchasing TCG card packs hoping to get cards for the card game. They have been enticed to gamble for items that will give them advantages in SWG.
Defense 2: It's just like buying a coke and winning a prize.
Response to 2: Coke and other promotionals have verified odds of winning and a no purchase necessary clause as part of the promotion. This prevents gambling for the chance outcome. The loot items in the TCG do not function this way. Money must change hands in some fashion to enable you to play. The more money you spend, the more people hope to increase their odds of winning, ever so slightly.
Defense 3: You don't win cash or material goods, so you can't call it gambling.
Response to 3: Other contests offer prizes that are not cash or material goods. These other prizes are in fact included in internet gambling legislation. Promotions that offer experiences as rewards must also have verified odds of winning and a no purchase necessary clause.
Defense 4: This is no different than WoW's card game.
Response to 4: I'm told that Wow's card game has printed cards that you own, and that the odds of winning are publicly verified. I'm also told that cards giving combat advantages to WoW subscribers have been recoded so that this is no longer the case.
Defense 5: Only SOE haters bitter over the NGE are using this as an excuse to hate on Sony.
Response to 5: A very avid fan of SWG is an outspoken opponent to the way the loot cards operate. He's even been labelled a "fanboi" (wrongly in my view) on occasion. He loves SWG, but doesn't believe that the loot items embedded in the TCG are ethical. There are numerous complaint threads from current players of SWG on the official boards. They are full of people expressing their concerns about this situation. Unfortunately, I hear that they get deleted and locked frequently. Personally I see this as SOE once again trying to suppress the truth to sell their spin.
Defence 6: SOE's EULA allows them to do this to people.
Response to 6: I imagine this will be tested. Judging from the way EULAs have been falling by the wayside when tested in court, I would not bet on this EULA standing up, especially under these circumstances.
Defense 7: Anyone who thinks this is illegal is an idiot.
Response to 7: Namecalling is not a defense.
Defense 8: This would be legal in some countries outside the U.S..
Response to 8: SOE is in the U.S..
Honestly someone who spends hundreds of dollars trying to get an item in a game only has themself to blame. That's the problem with things today, everyone has to try to blame everyone else but themself. Someone is overweight? Well lets blame McDonalds or some other fast food place and not ourselves for eating 17 double cheeseburgers a day.
If a person spends that much money trying to get some in game item they are probably the same type of person who buys a lot of in game money, power leveling, and that sort of thing. From what I've seen none of the loot cards are things that are absolutely necessary to play the game, its just extra things that people for some reason need to have.
People need to take accountability for what they do.
And what about the enablers?
--------
Ten Golden Rules Of Videogame Fanboyism
"SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor
I jumped on the "it's not gambling" bandwagon for awhile...but even the above quote states that this can only be addressed by State and Fed authorities on Gambling. I can agree with this...just waiting for their decision. So right now ...we're all wrong until proven otherwise..even Sharkypal.
And what about the enablers?
I don't buy the whole "enabler" mentality. Sure there are bad people out there who will do anything for some advantage....and who encourage a certain behavior in another...for whatever reason. To Me though...using "enabler" is just another way to place blame regarding a certain issue. A fluffy..feel good.."it's not my fault" crutch that keeps people from focusing on the fact that they have a f@cking problem and need to address it promptly..Grow some figurative "balls" and take reponsibility for Crikes sake. I have some pounds to lose...you won't find me sueing OUTBACK b/c their steaks are so pretty in the picture..affordable and tasty. I blame no one but myself and I will either take control..man up...and do something about it ...or die of a stroke/heart attack/(insert your favorite Obesity related disease here)
I jumped on the "it's not gambling" bandwagon for awhile...but even the above quote states that this can only be addressed by State and Fed authorities on Gambling. I can agree with this...just waiting for their decision. So right now ...we're all wrong until proven otherwise..even Sharkypal.
Along these lines, there are state laws, federal laws, gambling laws, online gambling laws, sweepstakes laws, product promotion laws, contract laws etc. that all speak to this situation. Someone with a lot of "law" school and a high paying job will need to sift through all the above (and more) to determine which laws apply to the loot item, TCG mechanic before we can hope to get a definitive answer.
Meanwhile, I express my personal opinion simply as an MMO gamer that is interested in the outcome. I'm interested largely because I think MMOs can be a very fun experience. I also think they can facilitate "community." I think MMO companies can do business in ways that promote "fun" and "community." I also think they can do business in ways that are hurtful and destructive, in monetary and other ways.
Why I take such a keen interest in these kinds of issues probably has something to do with my real life background. I've worked with the Criminal Justice system in Canada in one capacity or another, actually since 1988. Probably my most recognizable roles would have been to provide psychological evaluations of accused persons, and to provide mental health counselling to victims of crime. I've also been involved in consultation for legislation related to laws affecting child welfare.
I happened to stumble into the world of MMO's when my sister bought me one thinking it was a board game lol. I was delighted to meet an online community of people that I quite like. I've met excellent people who are anything from doctor's, to home-makers, to police officers, to soldiers, to mayors and manufacturers, and more as well. The people I've met are a real blessing. As a result, I take an interest in things that add joy to their lives, or add frustration. I also take an interest in things that seem to relieve them of their hard earned cash via deceptive or manipulative means. That, tbh, I don't much like.
Frankly, I think people have enough strife and b.s. in their "day jobs," so to speak. MMO's offer a nice way to take a small break from the daily grind and share a virtual adventure with like-minded others. Some companies seem to share and promote this vision. Others, however, seem to see MMO's as an opportunity to exploit and manipulate, for nothing more than monetary gain. The first group of companies earns their money honestly by providing a relaxing virtual experience. They deserve every penny they honestly earn. The second group of companies warrants a lot of scrutiny, from consumers certainly, and possibly from the authorities as well.