A day of reckoning will come soon for mmorpg.com . Either they will realized how jacked up their rating system is and fix it, or nobody will take the site seriously as an MMORPG guide and go somewhere else. It reminds me of the release of Everquest, considered 'great' because it's unique, but antique when something better comes along. People generally like truth and accuracy and will move on until they get it. If it's not here, there will be a ranking of "Top MMORPG sites" and this one will get #47 due to it's wonky system of scoring.
I doubt it. I don't think many people pay much attention to the rating system here or any other fan site. It's nice for entertainment purposes, but it doesn't mean too much. I think most people realize that. I'm sure that the powers that be here at MMORPG.com realize that.
We have Gamerankings.com and Metacritic.com for a more realistic approach to rankings, but even they have user ratings which are pretty jacked up as well. That's the nature of the beast.
A day of reckoning will come soon for mmorpg.com . Either they will realized how jacked up their rating system is and fix it, or nobody will take the site seriously as an MMORPG guide and go somewhere else. It reminds me of the release of Everquest, considered 'great' because it's unique, but antique when something better comes along. People generally like truth and accuracy and will move on until they get it. If it's not here, there will be a ranking of "Top MMORPG sites" and this one will get #47 due to it's wonky system of scoring.
I doubt it. I don't think many people pay much attention to the rating system here or any other fan site. It's nice for entertainment purposes, but it doesn't mean too much. I think most people realize that. I'm sure that the powers that be here at MMORPG.com realize that.
We have Gamerankings.com and Metacritic.com for a more realistic approach to rankings, but even they have user ratings which are pretty jacked up as well. That's the nature of the beast.
I have always found it funny that people put so much faith in "Professional" reviewers of games. I would rather listen to other gamers any day of the week then a "Professional" reviewer.
"Professional" is in quotes because they have to pay the bills and they do so with advertising dollars. They are part of the industry. Trusting their reviews honestly is like trusting the dealership that sells Ford cars to review the Ford cars in their dealership. Of course they are going to give it good reviews.
Just like magazines and sites that depend on "insider information", "developer interaction", and advertising from these companies to sell their product. I laugh at any thought of their being actual journalistic integrity from any site/magazine that advertises the products they are reviewing.
Fans of World of Warcraft that consider it to be the very best game site any unflattering reviews from players as "Haters". Fans claim that the choice is made with their dollar and World of Warcraft has to be the very best game because it is the most popular and people wouldn't play it if it was inferior. (Of course VHS was inferior yet won the technology war with Betamax. There are many examples of an inferior product becoming the most popular).
I would honestly love to find out (of course it is pretty much impossible to do) how many current World of Warcraft players even know any other MMO's or if they have heard of another one how many have ever even tried another MMO.
We can say without doubt that the Vast majority of World of Warcraft players have never played another Western MMO.
How do we know this?
Roughly 6 million people currently subscribe to World of Warcraft in the Western world. That doesn't count for people that have quit and no longer play. Let's just be cautious and say that roughly 10 million people have tried World of Warcraft in the US/EU marketplace. (Personally I think that number is probably closer to 30 or 40 million that have at least tried the trial account).
We know that the vast majority of these individuals have never ever touched another MMO because only a fraction of that number has cycled through other MMO titles. The MMO market in the West before WoW was extremely small. Everquest 1 (the subscription King before WoW) sold roughly 1-2 million copies (I can't remember the exact number) and never hit 1 million total subscribers. Even if you add up all the games before World of Warcraft you would hit maybe 1-1.5 million total subscribers in NA/EU.
So It is safe to say that the vast majority of World of Warcraft players have never and will never play another MMO. World of Warcraft is not an example of the MMO marketplace. It is an example of Blizzard's marketing and brand recognition power.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
These threads crack me up. I love it when the so-called "hard-cores" come crawling out of the wood-work and bash WoW because it is too "easy", or accessible, or whatever. The fact of the matter is that the only thing that truely counts is what game has active, paying subscribers. All of you that are still basking in the glory days of EQ1, DAoC, etc. are so eager to point out how great having "real" consequences to PvP or dying, or whatever, up until it comes time to actually pay for your beloved game. If it your number-one-deserves-more-players-than-it-has-hard-core-game is so great, then why are the sub numbers so low? I played EQ1 back in the day, and while it was great at the time I would never go back. And judging by it's current subs, neither are most of the WoW haters. WoW not only is the best MMO of all time, it is probably the best PC game ever. Period. Talk is cheap, but paying subs and box sales are what pays the bills. The fact is is that people play MMO's to have fun. And whatever you hate about WoW, there is no denying that people don't pay monthly fees to play a game that is not fun. The truth is, quite a few MMO players just like to bitch. And WoW's wild success gives them great fodder to garner the attention they crave by complaining about a game that is so popular.
Stupid argument. If paying subscribers the only thing that matters in a game then why are all those small niche mmo's still active? Many of them are free or have a limited free option in their game even. What about all those multiplayer games that you can play online. They are completely free. Paying subscribers only matter for the bean counters. For the players it only got a limited influence, and that influence is if the numbers fall too low the server/s will be empty and the game in danger of being shut down.
WoW's the best game ever made? Nope, not in a long shot. Granted it's one the most polished mmo's ever made but that is only cause it had the success it had. If any other mmo had that success they would be just as polished. What do you say when WoW numbers start dwindling? It will happen sooner or later. By your logic it would then be another one of all those 'shitty' mmo's hardly worth even a mention and you would be chasing the next bit thing out there.
Again, the numbers WoW got is meaningless. A billion flies like shit, so shit must be good yes? By your argument, it is.
Opinions mean nothing. Paying subs mean everything. When someone votes with their wallet that is saying something. You or I or anyone else can sit here and argue that, for instance, Vanguard is the best MMO ever, but that is just a cheap-assed worthless opinion and nothing more. If 12 million people suddenly started playing, and most importantly paying, for Vanguard, that would be saying something. Niche MMO's are still active because a few people like them and it doesn't cost much to keep an MMO going that is already developed and online. You can say that some niche game is better all you want, but at the end of the day your opinion means nothing. Paying subs is the only thing that any MMO is after. Sure, there are some "free" MMO's, but they are looking for some other way to generate money, or perhaps exposure for their aspiring developers, not just for the welfare of poor MMO players.
WoW is one of, if not the best, games ever made. When and if WoW's numbers start dwindling, it will still enjoy it's place in history as one of the best games ever made, not only for the number of ex-players that at one time or another played it, not only because of massive amount of revenue it generated, but also because of the unparalleled number of years that it absolutley dominated PC gaming.
Your pointless "flies" argument is yet another useless, regurgitated "McD's" argument that means nothing. Yeah, if a fly wanted some high-quality shit, it would most likely join the other 11 million flies on the big WoW turd. Why? Because it is the best turd out there.
"Opinions mean nothing."
+
"Paying subs mean everything." (Your opinion)
=
LOL
Just accept the fact that among experienced MMO gamers, WoW isn't considered that great of a game these days (#21, or whatever) and let it go...
If you have no respect for the opinions of this MMO community, maybe you should consider visiting a different community where your favorite game can get "the respect that it deserves." (my quotes)
Originally posted by Tincanalley If you have no respect for the opinions of this MMO community, maybe you should consider visiting a different community where your favorite game can get "the respect that it deserves." (my quotes)
Funny you should mention. Funnier is to assume that I haven't. At one point I went to the World of Warcraft forums to discuss mmorpg.com . I told them it was a great resource to try new games, read & write reviews, hear the latest news in mmorpgs and learn about games in development. Every reply I got was that this site was horsecrap. Although I disagree, it seems many WoW players toss this site into the lowest of low mmorpg site rankings according to that community. I see a bitter dispute between the two communities (or perhaps owners) for reasons unbeknownst to me. It's interesting to be a person who is a fan of both...like the middle child between a mudfight between two other siblings. To me, it looks like both communities (and/or owners) need to grow up.
Originally posted by Tincanalley If you have no respect for the opinions of this MMO community, maybe you should consider visiting a different community where your favorite game can get "the respect that it deserves." (my quotes)
Funny you should mention. Funnier is to assume that I haven't. At one point I went to the World of Warcraft forums to discuss mmorpg.com . I told them it was a great resource to try new games, read & write reviews, hear the latest news in mmorpgs and learn about games in development. Every reply I got was that this site was horsecrap. Although I disagree, it seems many WoW players toss this site into the lowest of low mmorpg site rankings according to that community. I see a bitter dispute between the two communities (or perhaps owners) for reasons unbeknownst to me. It's interesting to be a person who is a fan of both...like the middle child between a mudfight between two other siblings. To me, it looks like both communities (and/or owners) need to grow up.
I don't assume anything about you, mainly because I was replying to a different person.
Or, maybe you have a second account for ackhmed?
Anyways, my point remains. There are legitimate reasons for it being ranked low on this a site that caters specifically to experienced MMO enthusiasts that exist and have nothing to do with "hate" whether or not the rest of the WoW community wants to hear them. Just as there are good reasons why, despite that, or perhaps, in addition to that, it has very high subscription numbers.
I don't assume anything about you, mainly because I was replying to a different person. Or, maybe you have a second account for ackhmed?
Maaaybe I do. Actually I don't, but perhaps I should've been a little clearer, "Funnier to assume that when one makes a remark about the rankings being out of whack, that they have not been to a more World of Warcraft friendly site". Thanks for correcting my grammer, hopefully this realigns any outliers that might have caused a misunderstanding.
You'd stated WoW wasn't # 1 with 'experienced' gamers which does in fact include me as well. My first MMORPG was AnimeMuck in 1996 and have many many MMORPG's since including most of the "top 20" like Everquest 1 & 2, EVE, City of Heroes, and on and on. Guess what. World of Warcraft is #1 according to this experienced gamer who has been playing since they were 'born'.
Anyways, my point remains. There are legitimate reasons for it being ranked low on this a site that caters specifically to experienced MMO enthusiasts that exist and have nothing to do with "hate" whether or not the rest of the WoW community wants to hear them. Just as there are good reasons why, despite that, or perhaps, in addition to that, it has very high subscription numbers.
What are the legitimate reasons?
Why are these reasons out of step with other mmorpg communities?
We know that the vast majority of these individuals have never ever touched another MMO because only a fraction of that number has cycled through other MMO titles. The MMO market in the West before WoW was extremely small. Everquest 1 (the subscription King before WoW) sold roughly 1-2 million copies (I can't remember the exact number) and never hit 1 million total subscribers. Even if you add up all the games before World of Warcraft you would hit maybe 1-1.5 million total subscribers in NA/EU. So It is safe to say that the vast majority of World of Warcraft players have never and will never play another MMO. World of Warcraft is not an example of the MMO marketplace. It is an example of Blizzard's marketing and brand recognition power.
The underlined is where you would be wrong. You can see the evidence in how many copies of Conan and Warhammer sold in just their first few weeks. Millions between the two of them. People want to play a new game, but the problem is that the games coming out just are now measuring up. It isn't a problem with people living in a cave and thinking WoW is the only MMO in the world.
It is a fact that other games are not collecting players who quit WoW in any sizable manner that would be expected, especially when you consider how much churn WoW must have with a subscriber base of 11 million. It is a wild assumption to think that people just don't try other games. Annecdotal evidence says they do. Blizzard cancels surveys say they do. Every game forums says they do.
I would counter your assumption with one of my own. Other games fail to attract former WoW players, because those games are a large step down in quality, diversity and overall game play value. What reason do those other games offer for players leaving a game that has done so many things right? Fact is WoW has incorperated almost every element of MMOs and done so in a very well polished manner. Another fact is that almost every MMO release have been plagued with massive problems with very few excpetions.
Which is a more believable scenario?
Gamers stopped buying new games and never try them
Many MMOs fail to deliver a competitive product to what WoW offers its playerbase
Everyone wants to blame people for the problems in the MMO genre. Why not turn that same eye to the actual games that people are chosing not to play and look at why they may chose not to? Just read the forums and you will see the endless streams of "the next patch will fix the game" or "this game has so much potential". The same hope filled posts year after year after year.
I don't assume anything about you, mainly because I was replying to a different person. Or, maybe you have a second account for ackhmed?
Maaaybe I do. Actually I don't, but perhaps I should've been a little clearer, "Funnier to assume that when one makes a remark about the rankings being out of whack, that they have not been to a more World of Warcraft friendly site". Thanks for correcting my grammer, hopefully this realigns any outliers that might have caused a misunderstanding.
You'd stated WoW wasn't # 1 with 'experienced' gamers which does in fact include me as well. My first MMORPG was AnimeMuck in 1996 and have many many MMORPG's since including most of the "top 20" like Everquest 1 & 2, EVE, City of Heroes, and on and on. Guess what. World of Warcraft is #1 according to this experienced gamer who has been playing since they were 'born'.
Yes. And you had a chance to rate your favorite MMO just like the rest of the MMORPG.com users did. Nonetheless, among THIS website of experienced MMO players it is FAR from #1.
Yes. And you had a chance to rate your favorite MMO just like the rest of the MMORPG.com users did. Nonetheless, among THIS website of experienced MMO players it is FAR from #1.
Upon assumptions, why do you consider mmorpg.com members to be experienced? Why do you consider members of other MMORPG sites not experienced?
Anyways, my point remains. There are legitimate reasons for it being ranked low on this a site that caters specifically to experienced MMO enthusiasts that exist and have nothing to do with "hate" whether or not the rest of the WoW community wants to hear them. Just as there are good reasons why, despite that, or perhaps, in addition to that, it has very high subscription numbers.
What are the legitimate reasons?
Why are these reasons out of step with other mmorpg communities?
You want reasons? Just look at the other thread called:
Lots of hardcore mmo fans hate wow . i d like to ask them what they do like ?
What I found most interesting was that much of the hate bias that WoW fans assume wasn't even there. Most of the respondents clearly said that they DON'T hate WoW.
Out of step?
Specifically, which mmorpg communities do you believe the posters at MMORPG.com are out of step with?
What I found most interesting was that much of the hate bias that WoW fans assume wasn't even there. Most of the respondents clearly said that they DON'T hate WoW.
Tincanalley
Apprentice Member
Joined: 11/25/08
Posts:11
Actually there's a lot of hate-bias towards WoW, once you're here a while, you'll see.
Yes. And you had a chance to rate your favorite MMO just like the rest of the MMORPG.com users did. Nonetheless, among THIS website of experienced MMO players it is FAR from #1.
Upon assumptions, why do you consider mmorpg.com members to be experienced? Why do you consider members of other MMORPG sites not experienced?
I think the better question is why would you consider the posters at MMORPG.com inexperienced? Is that the case with you? Have you played any other MMOs besides WoW?
Most of the signatures I see and most of the discussion I read suggests that the gamers posting here have experience with many different MMOs.
Out of step? Specifically, which mmorpg communities do you believe the posters at MMORPG.com are out of step with?
Yes, on previous pages on this thread were cited a number of sites with their rankings showing World of Warcraft at the top. This site, mmorpg.com, is out of step with them or any others I have seen.
So I checked the ratings on this site and according to the list, World of Warcraft is rated at around number 21 of all released MMORPGs. Ouch. Okay, so I play WoW, but my intention behind this post is not to tell you that you're wrong or voting badly, but merely to ask the following: Do you honestly believe that there are 20 better MMORPGs than WoW (or at least closely comparable)? If you are at all willing to answer, perhaps you would be inclined estimate how the following might rank WoW as well, I assume there are none around to ask directly: a) Professional opinion -(what other game developers might think.)
b) Pseudo-professional opinion -(what games journalists might think.)
c) A typical PC-gamer's opinion - (what a person who might enjoy games such as Half-Life, Fallout 3, Red Alert 3, etc might think)
d) The 'Veteran' - what someone that has played more than a couple of MMORPGs for signfiicant periods of time might think. Actually I think that includes most of us.
There's no rhetoric behind that question, if you really believe that that there are 20, or even 50 better MMORPGs, then that's fine with me.
I think the better question is why would you consider the posters at MMORPG.com inexperienced? Is that the case with you? Have you played any other MMOs besides WoW? Most of the signatures I see and most of the discussion I read suggests that the gamers posting here have experience with many different MMOs.
The correct answer is that you can neither assume the people here nor anywhere else are experienced or inexperienced. The members of mmorpg.com are not 'uber', sorry.
I've been playing MMORPG's since 1996 starting with AnimeMuck having tried many as mentioned before on this thread (EVE a few months, EQ for years, EQ2 a few months, Star Wars Galaxies, City of Heroes/Villains a few months, etc.).
With signature lines, you cannot determine someone's expertise by the games they played (How long did they play? How do you know they played skillfully?) nor by the number of games they played (Some people can play a game for an hour, say "this sucks" and tosses it aside without really exploring content and capabilities). Just because I don't brag about how many games I've played nor for how long in my signature line, an inexperienced gamer it makes me not.
Out of step? Specifically, which mmorpg communities do you believe the posters at MMORPG.com are out of step with?
Yes, on previous pages on this thread were cited a number of sites with their rankings showing World of Warcraft at the top. This site, mmorpg.com, is out of step with them or any others I have seen.
Gamerankings.com? That's not a community. It's a data agglomeration web site. Were you going to list some some communities or were you just making stuff up?
Gamerankings.com? That's not a community. It's a data agglomeration web site. Were you going to list some some communities or were you just making stuff up?
Did I quote Gamerankings.com? Use strawman tactics often?
I was trying to help you out, to change your paradigm for just a moment, but if you'd like to be obstinate you may do so alone. Answer my questions first then, and perhaps I'll answer yours.
I think the better question is why would you consider the posters at MMORPG.com inexperienced? Is that the case with you? Have you played any other MMOs besides WoW? Most of the signatures I see and most of the discussion I read suggests that the gamers posting here have experience with many different MMOs.
The correct answer is that you can neither assume the people here nor anywhere else are experienced or inexperienced. The members of mmorpg.com are not 'uber', sorry.
I've been playing MMORPG's since 1996 starting with AnimeMuck having tried many as mentioned before on this thread (EVE a few months, EQ for years, EQ2 a few months, Star Wars Galaxies, City of Heroes/Villains a few months, etc.).
With signature lines, you cannot determine someone's expertise by the games they played (How long did they play? How do you know they played skillfully?) nor by the number of games they played (Some people can play a game for an hour, say "this sucks" and tosses it aside without really exploring content and capabilities). Just because I don't brag about how many games I've played nor for how long in my signature line, an inexperienced gamer it makes me not.
I said nothing about "uber". I merely said that the gamers who post here are experienced (various levels of experience, obviously). You, for instance, happen to be experienced with other games and happen to be posting. Nothing you have said leads me to believe my statement is incorrect. You are proof of its correctness, in fact.
I'm not sure why you're picking nits, but if you're having fun I'm not going to stop you.
Hell why keep arguing on what's better than what. It's all subjective anyway. This website's list is obviously going to show the opinion of the majority of its users and that's all. Most users here have played more than 6 MMOs at least, I'd say. And guess what? I'd say that most people who have played many MMOs don't find WoW very attractive whatsoever. Maybe you should make a topic asking for people to list their played MMOs in better>worse order and see what they say.
It seems that most people who are WoW fanactics would come with something like: WoW > L2 > Tibia
While those who are the cause of MMORPG.com's score list would come with: UO > DAoC > AC > AO > FFXI > WAR > L1 > WoW > L2 > SoTNW > RYL > RO > Tibia > RS (just an example).
See what I mean?
Ultima Online 98~04 Dark Age of Camelot 03~07 Final Fantasy XI 04~06 Guild Wars 05~08 World of Warcraft 04~05 Unsuccessful Tries: DFO/EQ2/DRaja/Rag/Req/RYL/9D/Cabal/KO/PSU/RF/GE/TO/TR/DDO/EVE/LoTRO/L2/RZ/SWG/VG
Gamerankings.com? That's not a community. It's a data agglomeration web site. Were you going to list some some communities or were you just making stuff up?
Did I quote Gamerankings.com? Use strawman tactics often?
I was trying to help you out, to change your paradigm for just a moment, but if you'd like to be obstinate you may do so alone. Answer my questions first then, and perhaps I'll answer yours.
You already answered my question:
Q: Specifically, which mmorpg communities do you believe the posters at MMORPG.com are out of step with?
A: Yes, on previous pages on this thread were cited a number of sites with their rankings showing World of Warcraft at the top. This site, mmorpg.com, is out of step with them or any others I have seen.
You just refuse to back up your answer with actual information.
You just refuse to back up your answer with actual information.
No, I refuse to do the work for someone who is unwilling to have a progressive discussion and makes assuming, blanketing statement. When you paint with a broad brush, everything looks blurry and you miss a lot of great details that make a difference. I have no reason to do the work for the sake of bickering. Give me incentive to cite and I'll do so. I'll also not go into the business of repeating myself.
We know that the vast majority of these individuals have never ever touched another MMO because only a fraction of that number has cycled through other MMO titles. The MMO market in the West before WoW was extremely small. Everquest 1 (the subscription King before WoW) sold roughly 1-2 million copies (I can't remember the exact number) and never hit 1 million total subscribers. Even if you add up all the games before World of Warcraft you would hit maybe 1-1.5 million total subscribers in NA/EU. So It is safe to say that the vast majority of World of Warcraft players have never and will never play another MMO. World of Warcraft is not an example of the MMO marketplace. It is an example of Blizzard's marketing and brand recognition power.
Which is a more believable scenario?
Gamers stopped buying new games and never try them
Many MMOs fail to deliver a competitive product to what WoW offers its playerbase
1. No they go back to the type of games they normally play. (Console Games and Casual games like Bejewelled, etc)
2. WoW failed to deliver the competitive product when it launched as well. It had way more bugs and issues then Warhammer Online did at launch. Infininate more problems then Lord of the Rings Online. The only recent MMO that compares to the level of problems that WoW had at launch is Age of Conan. Yes WoW was about equal to Age of Conan. So that isn't why WoW became so successful.
People were willing to put up with the Bugs from a Blizzard game especially because the majority of them haven't played other MMO games and didn't know any better.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Comments
I doubt it. I don't think many people pay much attention to the rating system here or any other fan site. It's nice for entertainment purposes, but it doesn't mean too much. I think most people realize that. I'm sure that the powers that be here at MMORPG.com realize that.
We have Gamerankings.com and Metacritic.com for a more realistic approach to rankings, but even they have user ratings which are pretty jacked up as well. That's the nature of the beast.
I doubt it. I don't think many people pay much attention to the rating system here or any other fan site. It's nice for entertainment purposes, but it doesn't mean too much. I think most people realize that. I'm sure that the powers that be here at MMORPG.com realize that.
We have Gamerankings.com and Metacritic.com for a more realistic approach to rankings, but even they have user ratings which are pretty jacked up as well. That's the nature of the beast.
I have always found it funny that people put so much faith in "Professional" reviewers of games. I would rather listen to other gamers any day of the week then a "Professional" reviewer.
"Professional" is in quotes because they have to pay the bills and they do so with advertising dollars. They are part of the industry. Trusting their reviews honestly is like trusting the dealership that sells Ford cars to review the Ford cars in their dealership. Of course they are going to give it good reviews.
Just like magazines and sites that depend on "insider information", "developer interaction", and advertising from these companies to sell their product. I laugh at any thought of their being actual journalistic integrity from any site/magazine that advertises the products they are reviewing.
Fans of World of Warcraft that consider it to be the very best game site any unflattering reviews from players as "Haters". Fans claim that the choice is made with their dollar and World of Warcraft has to be the very best game because it is the most popular and people wouldn't play it if it was inferior. (Of course VHS was inferior yet won the technology war with Betamax. There are many examples of an inferior product becoming the most popular).
I would honestly love to find out (of course it is pretty much impossible to do) how many current World of Warcraft players even know any other MMO's or if they have heard of another one how many have ever even tried another MMO.
We can say without doubt that the Vast majority of World of Warcraft players have never played another Western MMO.
How do we know this?
Roughly 6 million people currently subscribe to World of Warcraft in the Western world. That doesn't count for people that have quit and no longer play. Let's just be cautious and say that roughly 10 million people have tried World of Warcraft in the US/EU marketplace. (Personally I think that number is probably closer to 30 or 40 million that have at least tried the trial account).
We know that the vast majority of these individuals have never ever touched another MMO because only a fraction of that number has cycled through other MMO titles. The MMO market in the West before WoW was extremely small. Everquest 1 (the subscription King before WoW) sold roughly 1-2 million copies (I can't remember the exact number) and never hit 1 million total subscribers. Even if you add up all the games before World of Warcraft you would hit maybe 1-1.5 million total subscribers in NA/EU.
So It is safe to say that the vast majority of World of Warcraft players have never and will never play another MMO. World of Warcraft is not an example of the MMO marketplace. It is an example of Blizzard's marketing and brand recognition power.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Stupid argument. If paying subscribers the only thing that matters in a game then why are all those small niche mmo's still active? Many of them are free or have a limited free option in their game even. What about all those multiplayer games that you can play online. They are completely free. Paying subscribers only matter for the bean counters. For the players it only got a limited influence, and that influence is if the numbers fall too low the server/s will be empty and the game in danger of being shut down.
WoW's the best game ever made? Nope, not in a long shot. Granted it's one the most polished mmo's ever made but that is only cause it had the success it had. If any other mmo had that success they would be just as polished. What do you say when WoW numbers start dwindling? It will happen sooner or later. By your logic it would then be another one of all those 'shitty' mmo's hardly worth even a mention and you would be chasing the next bit thing out there.
Again, the numbers WoW got is meaningless. A billion flies like shit, so shit must be good yes? By your argument, it is.
Opinions mean nothing. Paying subs mean everything. When someone votes with their wallet that is saying something. You or I or anyone else can sit here and argue that, for instance, Vanguard is the best MMO ever, but that is just a cheap-assed worthless opinion and nothing more. If 12 million people suddenly started playing, and most importantly paying, for Vanguard, that would be saying something. Niche MMO's are still active because a few people like them and it doesn't cost much to keep an MMO going that is already developed and online. You can say that some niche game is better all you want, but at the end of the day your opinion means nothing. Paying subs is the only thing that any MMO is after. Sure, there are some "free" MMO's, but they are looking for some other way to generate money, or perhaps exposure for their aspiring developers, not just for the welfare of poor MMO players.
WoW is one of, if not the best, games ever made. When and if WoW's numbers start dwindling, it will still enjoy it's place in history as one of the best games ever made, not only for the number of ex-players that at one time or another played it, not only because of massive amount of revenue it generated, but also because of the unparalleled number of years that it absolutley dominated PC gaming.
Your pointless "flies" argument is yet another useless, regurgitated "McD's" argument that means nothing. Yeah, if a fly wanted some high-quality shit, it would most likely join the other 11 million flies on the big WoW turd. Why? Because it is the best turd out there.
"Opinions mean nothing."
+
"Paying subs mean everything." (Your opinion)
=
LOL
Just accept the fact that among experienced MMO gamers, WoW isn't considered that great of a game these days (#21, or whatever) and let it go...
If you have no respect for the opinions of this MMO community, maybe you should consider visiting a different community where your favorite game can get "the respect that it deserves." (my quotes)
Funny you should mention. Funnier is to assume that I haven't. At one point I went to the World of Warcraft forums to discuss mmorpg.com . I told them it was a great resource to try new games, read & write reviews, hear the latest news in mmorpgs and learn about games in development. Every reply I got was that this site was horsecrap. Although I disagree, it seems many WoW players toss this site into the lowest of low mmorpg site rankings according to that community. I see a bitter dispute between the two communities (or perhaps owners) for reasons unbeknownst to me. It's interesting to be a person who is a fan of both...like the middle child between a mudfight between two other siblings. To me, it looks like both communities (and/or owners) need to grow up.
http://www.allaboutgod.com/
Funny you should mention. Funnier is to assume that I haven't. At one point I went to the World of Warcraft forums to discuss mmorpg.com . I told them it was a great resource to try new games, read & write reviews, hear the latest news in mmorpgs and learn about games in development. Every reply I got was that this site was horsecrap. Although I disagree, it seems many WoW players toss this site into the lowest of low mmorpg site rankings according to that community. I see a bitter dispute between the two communities (or perhaps owners) for reasons unbeknownst to me. It's interesting to be a person who is a fan of both...like the middle child between a mudfight between two other siblings. To me, it looks like both communities (and/or owners) need to grow up.
I don't assume anything about you, mainly because I was replying to a different person.
Or, maybe you have a second account for ackhmed?
Anyways, my point remains. There are legitimate reasons for it being ranked low on this a site that caters specifically to experienced MMO enthusiasts that exist and have nothing to do with "hate" whether or not the rest of the WoW community wants to hear them. Just as there are good reasons why, despite that, or perhaps, in addition to that, it has very high subscription numbers.
Maaaybe I do. Actually I don't, but perhaps I should've been a little clearer, "Funnier to assume that when one makes a remark about the rankings being out of whack, that they have not been to a more World of Warcraft friendly site". Thanks for correcting my grammer, hopefully this realigns any outliers that might have caused a misunderstanding.
You'd stated WoW wasn't # 1 with 'experienced' gamers which does in fact include me as well. My first MMORPG was AnimeMuck in 1996 and have many many MMORPG's since including most of the "top 20" like Everquest 1 & 2, EVE, City of Heroes, and on and on. Guess what. World of Warcraft is #1 according to this experienced gamer who has been playing since they were 'born'.
http://www.allaboutgod.com/
What are the legitimate reasons?
Why are these reasons out of step with other mmorpg communities?
http://www.allaboutgod.com/
The underlined is where you would be wrong. You can see the evidence in how many copies of Conan and Warhammer sold in just their first few weeks. Millions between the two of them. People want to play a new game, but the problem is that the games coming out just are now measuring up. It isn't a problem with people living in a cave and thinking WoW is the only MMO in the world.
It is a fact that other games are not collecting players who quit WoW in any sizable manner that would be expected, especially when you consider how much churn WoW must have with a subscriber base of 11 million. It is a wild assumption to think that people just don't try other games. Annecdotal evidence says they do. Blizzard cancels surveys say they do. Every game forums says they do.
I would counter your assumption with one of my own. Other games fail to attract former WoW players, because those games are a large step down in quality, diversity and overall game play value. What reason do those other games offer for players leaving a game that has done so many things right? Fact is WoW has incorperated almost every element of MMOs and done so in a very well polished manner. Another fact is that almost every MMO release have been plagued with massive problems with very few excpetions.
Which is a more believable scenario?
Everyone wants to blame people for the problems in the MMO genre. Why not turn that same eye to the actual games that people are chosing not to play and look at why they may chose not to? Just read the forums and you will see the endless streams of "the next patch will fix the game" or "this game has so much potential". The same hope filled posts year after year after year.
Maaaybe I do. Actually I don't, but perhaps I should've been a little clearer, "Funnier to assume that when one makes a remark about the rankings being out of whack, that they have not been to a more World of Warcraft friendly site". Thanks for correcting my grammer, hopefully this realigns any outliers that might have caused a misunderstanding.
You'd stated WoW wasn't # 1 with 'experienced' gamers which does in fact include me as well. My first MMORPG was AnimeMuck in 1996 and have many many MMORPG's since including most of the "top 20" like Everquest 1 & 2, EVE, City of Heroes, and on and on. Guess what. World of Warcraft is #1 according to this experienced gamer who has been playing since they were 'born'.
Yes. And you had a chance to rate your favorite MMO just like the rest of the MMORPG.com users did. Nonetheless, among THIS website of experienced MMO players it is FAR from #1.
Upon assumptions, why do you consider mmorpg.com members to be experienced? Why do you consider members of other MMORPG sites not experienced?
http://www.allaboutgod.com/
What are the legitimate reasons?
Why are these reasons out of step with other mmorpg communities?
You want reasons? Just look at the other thread called:
Lots of hardcore mmo fans hate wow . i d like to ask them what they do like ?
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/214129/page/1
Lots of legitimate reasons in that thread.
What I found most interesting was that much of the hate bias that WoW fans assume wasn't even there. Most of the respondents clearly said that they DON'T hate WoW.
Out of step?
Specifically, which mmorpg communities do you believe the posters at MMORPG.com are out of step with?
Tincanalley
Apprentice Member
Joined: 11/25/08
Posts:11
Actually there's a lot of hate-bias towards WoW, once you're here a while, you'll see.
http://www.allaboutgod.com/
Upon assumptions, why do you consider mmorpg.com members to be experienced? Why do you consider members of other MMORPG sites not experienced?
I think the better question is why would you consider the posters at MMORPG.com inexperienced? Is that the case with you? Have you played any other MMOs besides WoW?
Most of the signatures I see and most of the discussion I read suggests that the gamers posting here have experience with many different MMOs.
Yes, on previous pages on this thread were cited a number of sites with their rankings showing World of Warcraft at the top. This site, mmorpg.com, is out of step with them or any others I have seen.
http://www.allaboutgod.com/
I would rather play Ogre Island than WoW.
-------------------------------------------------------------
"I have no idea what''s going on." - Tasos Flambouras
The correct answer is that you can neither assume the people here nor anywhere else are experienced or inexperienced. The members of mmorpg.com are not 'uber', sorry.
I've been playing MMORPG's since 1996 starting with AnimeMuck having tried many as mentioned before on this thread (EVE a few months, EQ for years, EQ2 a few months, Star Wars Galaxies, City of Heroes/Villains a few months, etc.).
With signature lines, you cannot determine someone's expertise by the games they played (How long did they play? How do you know they played skillfully?) nor by the number of games they played (Some people can play a game for an hour, say "this sucks" and tosses it aside without really exploring content and capabilities). Just because I don't brag about how many games I've played nor for how long in my signature line, an inexperienced gamer it makes me not.
http://www.allaboutgod.com/
Yes, on previous pages on this thread were cited a number of sites with their rankings showing World of Warcraft at the top. This site, mmorpg.com, is out of step with them or any others I have seen.
Gamerankings.com? That's not a community. It's a data agglomeration web site. Were you going to list some some communities or were you just making stuff up?
Did I quote Gamerankings.com? Use strawman tactics often?
I was trying to help you out, to change your paradigm for just a moment, but if you'd like to be obstinate you may do so alone. Answer my questions first then, and perhaps I'll answer yours.
http://www.allaboutgod.com/
2 posts....and one of them was this one? You're off to a flying start.
Steal any candy from babies today? 
The correct answer is that you can neither assume the people here nor anywhere else are experienced or inexperienced. The members of mmorpg.com are not 'uber', sorry.
I've been playing MMORPG's since 1996 starting with AnimeMuck having tried many as mentioned before on this thread (EVE a few months, EQ for years, EQ2 a few months, Star Wars Galaxies, City of Heroes/Villains a few months, etc.).
With signature lines, you cannot determine someone's expertise by the games they played (How long did they play? How do you know they played skillfully?) nor by the number of games they played (Some people can play a game for an hour, say "this sucks" and tosses it aside without really exploring content and capabilities). Just because I don't brag about how many games I've played nor for how long in my signature line, an inexperienced gamer it makes me not.
I said nothing about "uber". I merely said that the gamers who post here are experienced (various levels of experience, obviously). You, for instance, happen to be experienced with other games and happen to be posting. Nothing you have said leads me to believe my statement is incorrect. You are proof of its correctness, in fact.
I'm not sure why you're picking nits, but if you're having fun I'm not going to stop you.
Hell why keep arguing on what's better than what. It's all subjective anyway. This website's list is obviously going to show the opinion of the majority of its users and that's all. Most users here have played more than 6 MMOs at least, I'd say. And guess what? I'd say that most people who have played many MMOs don't find WoW very attractive whatsoever. Maybe you should make a topic asking for people to list their played MMOs in better>worse order and see what they say.
It seems that most people who are WoW fanactics would come with something like: WoW > L2 > Tibia
While those who are the cause of MMORPG.com's score list would come with: UO > DAoC > AC > AO > FFXI > WAR > L1 > WoW > L2 > SoTNW > RYL > RO > Tibia > RS (just an example).
See what I mean?
Ultima Online 98~04
Dark Age of Camelot 03~07
Final Fantasy XI 04~06
Guild Wars 05~08
World of Warcraft 04~05
Unsuccessful Tries: DFO/EQ2/DRaja/Rag/Req/RYL/9D/Cabal/KO/PSU/RF/GE/TO/TR/DDO/EVE/LoTRO/L2/RZ/SWG/VG
Did I quote Gamerankings.com? Use strawman tactics often?
I was trying to help you out, to change your paradigm for just a moment, but if you'd like to be obstinate you may do so alone. Answer my questions first then, and perhaps I'll answer yours.
You already answered my question:
Q: Specifically, which mmorpg communities do you believe the posters at MMORPG.com are out of step with?
A: Yes, on previous pages on this thread were cited a number of sites with their rankings showing World of Warcraft at the top. This site, mmorpg.com, is out of step with them or any others I have seen.
You just refuse to back up your answer with actual information.
No, I refuse to do the work for someone who is unwilling to have a progressive discussion and makes assuming, blanketing statement. When you paint with a broad brush, everything looks blurry and you miss a lot of great details that make a difference. I have no reason to do the work for the sake of bickering. Give me incentive to cite and I'll do so. I'll also not go into the business of repeating myself.
http://www.allaboutgod.com/
Which is a more believable scenario?
1. No they go back to the type of games they normally play. (Console Games and Casual games like Bejewelled, etc)
2. WoW failed to deliver the competitive product when it launched as well. It had way more bugs and issues then Warhammer Online did at launch. Infininate more problems then Lord of the Rings Online. The only recent MMO that compares to the level of problems that WoW had at launch is Age of Conan. Yes WoW was about equal to Age of Conan. So that isn't why WoW became so successful.
People were willing to put up with the Bugs from a Blizzard game especially because the majority of them haven't played other MMO games and didn't know any better.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
If you were to look at the rating breakdown on WoW you'd see that Community, Service and Role-Playing are dragging the score down.
Fun Factor is what makes or breaks a game, if its not fun just play something else.