All the ranking on this website means is that there are not a lot of WoW fans here. For WoW to make #20 doesnt mean I have to rank 20 games above it. I just need to rank 1 above it. So if I (and many others) rank Asheron's Call highly, and others rank LotRO highly, and others WAR, etc. this is what pushes down WoW, not someone ranking 20 games above it, but thousands ranking their own favorite game higher.
The ratings are an average, not a sum. A game that many have liked and many have disliked will be rated lower than one that few have liked and far fewer have disliked.
Are there 20 MMORPGs that I'd like better than WoW? I haven't played enough to know for certain, but probably. As far as how much I've liked the MMORPGs I've played goes, WoW was about average, or perhaps a little below average.
Now, that is a self-selecting sample, as if it's obvious that I'll dislike a game, I never play it in the first place. If I were to play every single MMORPG ever made, WoW would probably come out substantially above average.
I'm going to go ahead and agree with the McDonalds WoW analogy. It applies here.
Every but can get something from WoW, but there's probably a better MMO suited to your needs out there.
WoW is a pretty good game, but it's made for the LCDs and soccer moms out there to be able to play it and feel like they're succeeding when in reality it's all being handed to them.
WoW fanboi: "lolz 11.5 million customers, itz obviously da best"
For all that WoW does right... there is still a lot that it does 'wrong', in my opinion.
I'm not sure what it is, but it seems that I really didn't notice the high level of asshattery amongst gamers until I played WoW. The overall poor community feel to the game and lack of indivuality really sets the game back in many ways for me.
Community - Unless you are in a good guild, forget any real meaningful, educational, or good conversation with the public. As soon as 1 person asks a legit question, 10 people chime in with 'noob', 'anal (spell/item/whatever)', or something.
Of the 3 servers that I have played on... and the guilds I've been involved with on those servers, none of them really did much as a guild other than RAID for gear. Help levelling? Level/quest together... forget it. You are welcome into the guild as long as you can help them get their gear.
Nothing in this game really ties the members of the factions together. Teams in BG's? Bah. The biggest leap in open world PvP in WoW has come with Achievements that somewhat promote Cap City raids.
With 12 million people playing this game... there should be some of the most EPIC Open World battles of ANY game, bar none. Even when you do get a good skirmish going... it doesn't do anything to the game world.
honestly for all the crap people say about the community it isnt that bad for every douche bag in general chat theres also 1 person who will legit help that goes for every game. people only single out wow in this category because you notice this more because of the large population.
To be honest I was glad when this thread died and dismayed when someone ressurrected it over a month later, because there has not been one reasoned statement in this entire thread.
To hear people say that the game was designed for "simpletons" and "soccer moms", that the game has "no challenge", that it can be completely defined as an older MMORPG polished up, that it has no depth... the people making these statements are not actually making any measured commentary or criticism about the game, they are thinly-vieled digs to those of us who do enjoy it.
I don't have a problem with people criticising the game, but that is not what is happening here. WoW is far from perfect and there are many things that could be improved. Almost unbelievably, noone has mentioned any single one of those problems, and are instead regurgitating the same old crap people in other games have commented about WoW in their own chat channels without ever actually playing it or trying it for more than a few hours.
You don't criticise media by calling its fans soccer moms. You guys have no interest or idea about what makes WoW as good as it is. You either actually do realize it but are in some kind of Freudian denial about itor you are subscribing to the very Freudian and "trendy" standpoint of hating something very popular.
Now let this thread die and get out of the WoW forums and back to the forums of the games you no longer play anyway.
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
So I checked the ratings on this site and according to the list, World of Warcraft is rated at around number 21 of all released MMORPGs. Ouch. Okay, so I play WoW, but my intention behind this post is not to tell you that you're wrong or voting badly, but merely to ask the following: Do you honestly believe that there are 20 better MMORPGs than WoW (or at least closely comparable)? If you are at all willing to answer, perhaps you would be inclined estimate how the following might rank WoW as well, I assume there are none around to ask directly: a) Professional opinion -(what other game developers might think.)
b) Pseudo-professional opinion -(what games journalists might think.)
c) A typical PC-gamer's opinion - (what a person who might enjoy games such as Half-Life, Fallout 3, Red Alert 3, etc might think)
d) The 'Veteran' - what someone that has played more than a couple of MMORPGs for signfiicant periods of time might think. Actually I think that includes most of us.
There's no rhetoric behind that question, if you really believe that that there are 20, or even 50 better MMORPGs, then that's fine with me.
mmorpgs are new to a lot of people who play wow and thats why its popular.
To be honest I was glad when this thread died and dismayed when someone ressurrected it over a month later, because there has not been one reasoned statement in this entire thread. To hear people say that the game was designed for "simpletons" and "soccer moms", that the game has "no challenge", that it can be completely defined as an older MMORPG polished up, that it has no depth... the people making these statements are not actually making any measured commentary or criticism about the game, they are thinly-vieled digs to those of us who do enjoy it. I don't have a problem with people criticising the game, but that is not what is happening here. WoW is far from perfect and there are many things that could be improved. Almost unbelievably, noone has mentioned any single one of those problems, and are instead regurgitating the same old crap people in other games have commented about WoW in their own chat channels without ever actually playing it or trying it for more than a few hours. You don't criticise media by calling its fans soccer moms. You guys have no interest or idea about what makes WoW as good as it is. You either actually do realize it but are in some kind of Freudian denial about itor you are subscribing to the very Freudian and "trendy" standpoint of hating something very popular. Now let this thread die and get out of the WoW forums and back to the forums of the games you no longer play anyway.
OK, since you want this thread to die, lets keep the answer simple enough for even a WOW player to understand it.
The game is rated here as it is because the greater forum membership overall (who bother to rate games, I personally don't) doesn't like WOW for one or more reasons.
Not all of those reasons are rational, or shared by everyone, but whatever they are, it means in the end many people who rate games don't like WOW.
You've actually ignored some very good reasons, WOW isn't very challenging tbh, (say compared to Lineage 2, if a person thinks a good grind is a what a MMO needs) or deep (say compared to EVE, where there is no endgame) or is graphically inept (compared to say, AOC).
You seem to be accusing us of being elitist, when in fact the very tone of your posts is extremely condesending, (i.e."get out of the WOW forums and back to the forums of the games you no longer play anyway.") which an attitude that none of us feels any WOW player has a right to.
Hey, you started this thread, we responded. If you don't like the answers, well all I can say is:
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
No Kyleran, you have misunderstood utterly and, case in point, have said that WoW has no challenge - this is a classic regurgitated argument, that after I completely rebuke it, people just turn the argument to yet another logicial fallacy, and it's getting tiring to see people just repeating what they hear other posters saying but not actually being able to argue the point for themselves.
No "challenge"? Compared to WHAT? Exactly? You know already that this is a poor argument.
Would you like me to poke the huge gaping flaws in this argument, the huge fallacy of the 'challenge' in Lineage 2 for example. Long level grind doesn't equal challenge. Killing thousands upon thousands of mosters might take a very long time, but it's only time we're talking about.
Same with any other MMORPG because unlike what people seem to think I have actually played them and it's doesn't take a genius to realize these games are not about challenge at all. Not EVE online, WAR, AOC or any of that.
You mention pretentiousness but it's the players that think that the games they play require some kind of special intellect or skill to play that are the ones being pretentious.
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
lol @ ;Lineage 2 being challenging. Is there really a mmorpg out there that is truely challenging? I mean come on , I've played damn near all of the ones worth playing. I've yet to see anything so revolutionary that my kids couldn't play it. Do some have a higher learning curve that others ..perhaps. But once you have everything down , all of them are highly simple.
just look at it lot of the mmos there are not even out is a joke and lot of them are gonna fail.
Originally posted by Spathotan The simplest way to put this, is like this. Buying a used/refurbished 360 is on the same plane as sharing a condom in a gangbang with strangers.
lol @ ;Lineage 2 being challenging. Is there really a mmorpg out there that is truely challenging? I mean come on , I've played damn near all of the ones worth playing. I've yet to see anything so revolutionary that my kids couldn't play it. Do some have a higher learning curve that others ..perhaps. But once you have everything down , all of them are highly simple.
Unless you're required to wear a safety helment 24/7, I have to agree Bama. Sure there are challenging elements to every game (Vael comes to mind with WoW), but c'mon people lets face facts that MMOs aren't overly complicated. Given some time, most players can master, or at least become profecient in, any system.
Ico Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
So I checked the ratings on this site and according to the list, World of Warcraft is rated at around number 21 of all released MMORPGs. Ouch. Okay, so I play WoW, but my intention behind this post is not to tell you that you're wrong or voting badly, but merely to ask the following: Do you honestly believe that there are 20 better MMORPGs than WoW (or at least closely comparable)? If you are at all willing to answer, perhaps you would be inclined estimate how the following might rank WoW as well, I assume there are none around to ask directly: a) Professional opinion -(what other game developers might think.)
b) Pseudo-professional opinion -(what games journalists might think.)
c) A typical PC-gamer's opinion - (what a person who might enjoy games such as Half-Life, Fallout 3, Red Alert 3, etc might think)
d) The 'Veteran' - what someone that has played more than a couple of MMORPGs for signfiicant periods of time might think. Actually I think that includes most of us.
There's no rhetoric behind that question, if you really believe that that there are 20, or even 50 better MMORPGs, then that's fine with me.
Are there 20 other MMO's that are better than WoW ? I would have to say heck no.
Rankings from this site should be taken with a grain of salt. Just as rankings for a SOE game on the PS3 site are biased.
Most of the community here are vet MMO gamers. They look at WoW with disdain and disgust. WoW is viewed as destructive to the MMO genre.
I can understand this hatred. My beloved game, Star Wars Galaxies was utterly destroyed by WoW's success. The original Combat Revamp was exactly what the community asked for. Player input had a heavy influence on it. Then along comes WoW and suddenly SOE changes the skill based game into a level based one. When I personally asked Tiggs at Celebration 3 why they dumped the player suggested Revamp for this abomination, the response was "we wanted the game to have more broad appeal". WoW's influence was clear.
The Combat Upgrade didnt go far enough to mimick WoW and gain the masses SOE coveted. So SOE decided to develop a WoW clone with a quasi-fps system. They destroyed the player economy. They destroyed 2.5 years of work. They knew these changes would be hated so they kept it a secret from the community until 2 days after the last expansion launched. The NGE took away a home for 200k players.
Since that time those 200k refugees have searched and searched for another MMO home. What we constantly get is yet another WoW clone. With each launch we pray for a similiar system where you can just be a crafter and its not a secondary lamo skill like WoW has. Each time we remove the clone from our hard drives and watch Seinfeld reruns hoping another MMO like SWG comes.
I played WoW on and off for 3 years. Ive raided with a top 500 USA guild. Ive reached the top each expansion. And each time after I beat the game, I cancelled. Linear games like WoW bore me. Once you get that 5/5 piece of tier armor, its game over.
Skill based games really have no ending. And I miss the little things like housing, npc vendors, resources with stats.
Finally, one thing often overlooked with an MMO. Its community. The one thing that made me quit over anything else is the community in WoW. A game like LOTR is very similiar to WoW but the community is a 100 times more mature. WoW brought a lot of new players to the MMO scene and many are just awful. Theyre young, immature, inexperienced, bad at their class, etc. A pug in LOTR is nearly always a decent run. A pug in WoW is a freakin nightmare half the time.
Trade chat in WoW rarely ever contains actual trade chatter. Its usually Chuck Norris jokes, or political rants, or really awful chat I cant repeat here. Getting an invite for a group is usually a blind one, no "hey wanna do - instance". And if you dare tell the kid its rude to blind invite someone you get a STFU response.
battle grounds are where you really see some awful players. Ive pulled my hair out screaming in sheer frustration at the jerks ive met in BG's. Typical experiences include someone not at their desk so you lose the tower because of it. My personal favorite, the player who watches you die because he thinks its funny or because he is mad that you took the flag first. Oh and there are the jerks that could care less about winning, theyre just there for honor kills.
If I had to rate the community for WoW, it wouldnt make the top 50. The game itself rates a top 5 for sure based on its clean gameplay. For what WoW does, it does very well. But its success has definitely hurt the industry. Yes it brought in at least 5-7 million brand new MMO players. I doubt though that evn 10% of those new to MMO's will stick around in the genre. Which is ironic because the last 5+ MMO's developed were aiming to appeal to those same gamers. Diablo 3 will do more damage to WoW subscriptions than any MMO will do.
Cabe2323 said: "World of Warcraft is not an example of the MMO marketplace. It is an example of Blizzard's marketing and brand recognition power." I would have agreed with this except for one thing. SOE/Lucas Arts and Star Wars have waaaay more brand recognition and marketing than Blizzard and SWG tanked.
Except that isn't true.
Sure Star Wars has huge brand recognition for pop culture but it wasn't as big in the PC gaming market. Blizzard on the other hand had around 20+ million people using Battle.net worldwide. That is 20+million people that they advertised to about World of Warcraft who might not of ever heard of another MMO in that time frame.
People honestly underestimate the power of advertising and also the power of being the "Top Dog". More people want to play WoW because people are playing WoW.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
No Kyleran, you have misunderstood utterly and, case in point, have said that WoW has no challenge - this is a classic regurgitated argument, that after I completely rebuke it, people just turn the argument to yet another logicial fallacy, and it's getting tiring to see people just repeating what they hear other posters saying but not actually being able to argue the point for themselves. No "challenge"? Compared to WHAT? Exactly? You know already that this is a poor argument. Would you like me to poke the huge gaping flaws in this argument, the huge fallacy of the 'challenge' in Lineage 2 for example. Long level grind doesn't equal challenge. Killing thousands upon thousands of mosters might take a very long time, but it's only time we're talking about. Same with any other MMORPG because unlike what people seem to think I have actually played them and it's doesn't take a genius to realize these games are not about challenge at all. Not EVE online, WAR, AOC or any of that. You mention pretentiousness but it's the players that think that the games they play require some kind of special intellect or skill to play that are the ones being pretentious.
Challenge in MMO terms?
For some it would be competing for a Raid Mob with other guilds. That was considered a huge "challenge" in Everquest 1. You as a WoW player would probably consider it an inconvience but for a lot of players it was a "Challenge".
For others it would be world meaningful PVP. For example RVR in Dark Age of Camelot. The very fact that you could be extremely outnumbered was considered challenging. In WoW PVP revolves around Arenas where every player is fully prepared and gets access to every single one of thier best skills. A lot of people would consider this not very challenging.
You dismiss the "Challenge" of lineage 2 but it just like Asheron's Call 1 was considered a "Challenge" by many players. That Long level grind is a "Challenge" for some since not everyone has the commitment to devote the necessary time to complete this "Challenge". Similar to that raid in FFXI that took 18+ hours or some crap. That would be considered a "Challenge" to some.
Another way that people would consider other MMOs challenging is gameplay for example in Asheron's Call 1. There were dungeons that required you to make jumps across pits and you would die if you missed. (Kind of like an Adventure game or Console Game) Some people would consider this more challenging.
The best example I have seen is an article that was done on Massively. They talked about WoW and compared it to other games. It showed how WoW has all of these features but pretty much every feature (They felt and many MMO fans do as well) another game did better. The difference is WoW does all of them pretty well and those other games were lacking in areas.
So yes It is safe to say that WoW is not challenging. I have never felt "Challenged" in World of Warcraft. Not in PVP or PVE.
Recant you might try to say you have debunked this opinion but that just isn't true. Sure you might feel that the game is challenging but that isn't the general opinion of most people. Most people like the game for the very reason that it is easy to play and enjoy. So many people that are casual players mention how they like the game because it is easy and doesn't feel like a "Job" to them.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
To be honest I was glad when this thread died and dismayed when someone ressurrected it over a month later, because there has not been one reasoned statement in this entire thread. To hear people say that the game was designed for "simpletons" and "soccer moms", that the game has "no challenge", that it can be completely defined as an older MMORPG polished up, that it has no depth... the people making these statements are not actually making any measured commentary or criticism about the game, they are thinly-vieled digs to those of us who do enjoy it. I don't have a problem with people criticising the game, but that is not what is happening here. WoW is far from perfect and there are many things that could be improved. Almost unbelievably, noone has mentioned any single one of those problems, and are instead regurgitating the same old crap people in other games have commented about WoW in their own chat channels without ever actually playing it or trying it for more than a few hours. You don't criticise media by calling its fans soccer moms. You guys have no interest or idea about what makes WoW as good as it is. You either actually do realize it but are in some kind of Freudian denial about itor you are subscribing to the very Freudian and "trendy" standpoint of hating something very popular. Now let this thread die and get out of the WoW forums and back to the forums of the games you no longer play anyway.
okay specifics then...
Gear - In most MMO's Ive played, gear is a reflection of talent, skill, and ability. In SWG if someone saw my saber with perfect pearls, they know I kicked an ancient krayt's ass ( a real accomplishment as it took 45 min to kill one). If someone saw my belt with a +16 melee attack speed attachment they knew I must have killed a really powerful npc (like a dark jedi master). My gear proved I was an amazing accomplished jedi. I got respect and admiration in a game like SWG because of my accomplishments.
In World of Warcraft my gear doesnt mean crap. Any player regardless of skill, talent, or ability can get the best gear. WoW is too easy and gear too simple to get. Any bad player can gear up. It cheapens the accomplishment when the worst least skilled players are wearing the exact same gear as you are (assuming you have decent skill). Everyone is the exact same.
Another example...
level based system compared to skills - In a skill based system my gear actually matters. In a level based system gear doesnt matter at all. Sure epic gear means you wil kill a mob a few seconds faster than someone in greens, but in the end you both will kill that mob.
Many guilds proved this in BC expansion. Some guilds were able to raid and clear BT in tier 3 lvl 60 gear. Only their level really mattered as they proved. Sure gear makes life easier but its not necessary for success in a level system
The reason is not very commonly known to wow gamers because they are new to MMO's. Its called a Damage Multiplier system. Basically it works like this...
you fight a same level mob as you. mob will hit you for base damage x1 always. You will hit mob for base damage x1.
You fight a mob 5 levels above you. Mob will hit you for base damage x5 always. You will hit mob for base damage -5.
The numbers are of course not specific but essentially it means a mob 5 levels above you will likely always will you regardless of skills, talent, or gear. And you will always kill a mob 5 levels below you again regardless of skills, talent, or gear.
It is the bane of a level based game. Its not you that determines any outcome, its the damage multiplier.
This isnt the case with skill based games where gear, talent, and skills make the difference.
Another example....
zones - wow makes zones based on mob levels. The problems with this are numerous. For starters, once you outlevel an area it becomes obsolete. Finish your grind at Ungoro and move on to Plaguelands. You will never have a reason to go back to Ungoro crater ever again.
This seperates players as well. Someone new and grinding a toon these days will likely never see another player in Ungoro.
It also makes hunting rather lame and predictable.
Another example....
player economy - it doesnt exist for starters. The main issue is Blizz gave everyone waaaaaayyyyy too many character slots so interdependence is non-existant. If a player can make all items with 5 different toons he doesnt need to interact with other players.
Crafting is a secondary skill that anyone can take up. Therefore there are a million enchanters, a million engineers, a million miners, etc. The only reason anyone even bothers to grind a crafting prof is so they wont have to rely on another player...again an issue with interdependence.
the economy and crafting are totally pointless and only serve to allow players to avoid each other.
There are many more examples that show World of Warcraft is an inferior product. The fact that most wow gamers remain ignorant to this is simply because they dont know any better. And its very irritating that developers continue to make clones to attract them when I suspect most arent a permanent member of the MMO genre. I bet if any game takes millions of wow gamers, it wont be another MMO but possibly Diablo 3. Makes sense as many new to wow came from Battlenet
It's really sad to see people bash WoW this bad. I see alot of elitist threads saying the NEW gamers attracted by WoW suck so the game sucks. PuGs are aweful....blah blah blah. I have been playing online games since Shadows of Yserbius. If you know the game then you know how long. The big problem with the MMO industry in the past was that all the MMO's were niche games. You had the grinders, Lineage and Evercrack. The sandbox, UO, and a few other games like AO(when it was buggy as hell). You had the pvp games, DAOC.
Warcraft was definately not bug free on launch it lacked a lot of end game content and was very imbalanced. The thing that set Wow ahead of everyother game was it's user friendly interface. The quests were easy to understand and complete. Combat flowed very nice compared to other MMO's. It wasn't 'clunky' The atmosphere of the zones felt right! It was a game that I could get my wife, who doesn't play games to try and like! You couldn't do that with alot of the other MMO's. Also the customer support is top notch. Blizzard was patching and adding content almost every month within the first few years. The world was always getting bigger.
Sure Wow is not what it was. Everyone has heard of it or played it. When your on top it's easy to want to criticize. I have left the game numerous times for other MMO's: TR, AoC, WAR, and Eve. I find myself coming back because of old Raid friends or just because I really did have fun playing it. I just had to play something else. I can't play one game my whole life.
Simple facts!
1: everyone cannot be pleased
2: everyone hates elitist jerks! (except the website)
3: wow helped the industry, even if you don't like the results, more money is being spent to make better mmos due to wow's success. DEAL WITH IT
4: Jenkins is not the most used last name in America, just the most annoying.
Originally posted by admriker4 Most of the community here are vet MMO gamers. They look at WoW with disdain and disgust. WoW is viewed as destructive to the MMO genre. I can understand this hatred. My beloved game, Star Wars Galaxies was utterly destroyed by WoW's success. The original Combat Revamp was exactly what the community asked for. Player input had a heavy influence on it. Then along comes WoW and suddenly SOE changes the skill based game into a level based one. When I personally asked Tiggs at Celebration 3 why they dumped the player suggested Revamp for this abomination, the response was "we wanted the game to have more broad appeal". WoW's influence was clear.
I highly doubt most of the posters on this site are 'vets'; most just need something to hate on and well ... it's cool to take shots at the king I suppose.
SWG was DOA, Blizzard just put the nail in the coffin. Many would agree that SWG was a great game in concept only. Had SOE not 'taken' the game away, I suspect few would be discussing it today.
Ico Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Originally posted by Cabe2323 Challenge in MMO terms? For some it would be competing for a Raid Mob with other guilds. That was considered a huge "challenge" in Everquest 1. You as a WoW player would probably consider it an inconvience but for a lot of players it was a "Challenge". I was in one of those types of guilds. Limiting content that players have available so they have to fight over it doesn't make the actual GAMEPLAY any more challenging. It just shortchanges the players and encourages the community to hate each other in order to advance. I strongly disgree that this makes the game challenging. For others it would be world meaningful PVP. For example RVR in Dark Age of Camelot. The very fact that you could be extremely outnumbered was considered challenging. In WoW PVP revolves around Arenas where every player is fully prepared and gets access to every single one of thier best skills. A lot of people would consider this not very challenging. Being outnumbered is just unbalanced. What you ignore about your example is that perhaps some people felt challenged to be outnumbered (I use that term loosely), but the larger portion of the players in that battle [the side with a player advantage] that actual combat is LESS challenging. So in order for some people to get challenge a majority have to give up the competitive edge? I think in games that offer wild west pvp and controlled even balanced teams, players for the most part enjoy the balance even field combat. At least there BOTH teams have a challenge offered to them. If people enjoy being outnumbered they can just que up with less people. You dismiss the "Challenge" of lineage 2 but it just like Asheron's Call 1 was considered a "Challenge" by many players. That Long level grind is a "Challenge" for some since not everyone has the commitment to devote the necessary time to complete this "Challenge". Similar to that raid in FFXI that took 18+ hours or some crap. That would be considered a "Challenge" to some. It is not challenging to require players to kill 10,000 orcs to level instead of 1000. That just tests players endurance and their patience. If it is not difficult to kill 1 orc then it is not difficult to kill that orc repeatedly to gain levels. Unless lineage offered more difficult encounters with orcs then pretending it is somehow hard to repeat the same activity doesn't make one game harder than the other. To illustrate, if wow doubled the xp needed to level compared to either lineage game, would it then become the most difficult mmo on the market? Would that somehow change the actual difficulty of playing the game aside from running someone out of patience? Also I thought that AC raid wasn't working properly which is why it took so long. Though I'm not sure anything that lasts 18 hours could really be that hard, again outside of endurance or tedium. For such a large group of people to play so long flawlessly leads me to think the actual combat wasn't really that difficult. I wasn't there so pure speculation on my part. Another way that people would consider other MMOs challenging is gameplay for example in Asheron's Call 1. There were dungeons that required you to make jumps across pits and you would die if you missed. (Kind of like an Adventure game or Console Game) Some people would consider this more challenging. This is a actually a good example. I think there are similar situations in wow, not exactly the same, but similar. Jumping at thaddius, running through frogger, moving an entire 40 man raid during C'thun. I'm not familiar with the AC1 dungeon you talk about so only a guess here, but there is a lot of positioning and movement in most encounters.
The best example I have seen is an article that was done on Massively. They talked about WoW and compared it to other games. It showed how WoW has all of these features but pretty much every feature (They felt and many MMO fans do as well) another game did better. The difference is WoW does all of them pretty well and those other games were lacking in areas. Correct, wow does almost every aspect of mmos pretty well. Maybe not the best in each category, but near tops for sure. The problem with all the other games is they tend to be one trick ponies. One thing done decently well, but you pretty much have to deal with lesser gameplay everywhere else. So yes It is safe to say that WoW is not challenging. I have never felt "Challenged" in World of Warcraft. Not in PVP or PVE. I think your conclusion is flawed. Maybe if you took an armload of games and picked/choose a single feature from each you would have a more difficult game than wow, but that is like playing fantasy baseball. The 10 games being compared to 1 (wow) does not exist. It is a fantasy comparison that completely ignores all the other aspects of each of those games. You can't simply pick a feature of each games and compare those sums to one game as if it makes a realisitic comparison.
I highly doubt most of the posters on this site are 'vets'; most just need something to hate on and well ... it's cool to take shots at the king I suppose.
SWG was DOA, Blizzard just put the nail in the coffin. Many would agree that SWG was a great game in concept only. Had SOE not 'taken' the game away, I suspect few would be discussing it today.
Actually the original SWG was a fun game those Sony IDIOTS did a number on it, I didn't get to play it long before they ruined it, was very upset. WOW is ranked #21 becuase many game elements wow simply does not have that older, good, mmorpgs did have. It simplified the genre for mass appeal ( idiots ) and in turn many good games like SWG became bad wow rip offs and died a tragic death, since most people not playing wow, do NOT want to play a wow clone, taking the good thing SWG was and turning it into Tardsville online wasn't a good idea.
WoW started a myth of there being no such thing as class balance and that is was just not possible, you know like when Hillary said the election was hopelessly deadlocked, you know BS.
Wow is a non immersive world where everything is predictable and nothing is hard to do, nothing is custimizable or unique amongst players, their is NO sandbox at all, no single element. It is a bland, weak Warner Brothers fantasy cartoon and just gets boring. Some people just don't want that.
I highly doubt most of the posters on this site are 'vets'; most just need something to hate on and well ... it's cool to take shots at the king I suppose.
SWG was DOA, Blizzard just put the nail in the coffin. Many would agree that SWG was a great game in concept only. Had SOE not 'taken' the game away, I suspect few would be discussing it today.
Wow is a non immersive world where everything is predictable and nothing is hard to do, nothing is custimizable or unique amongst players, their is NO sandbox at all, no single element. It is a bland, weak Warner Brothers fantasy cartoon and just gets boring. Some people just don't want that.
I Actually loved Warner Brothers cartoons. And yes "some" people do want that and what I can't understand are people who have to bash the game 24/7 whehn its obvious they don't want that!?! I do not wanta sandbox and you do not see me in the SWg forums bashing it do you? So why do we have to put up with it here?
There I went ahead and fixed my quote you edited, you left out most of it . Anyway you have to put up with it because unlike you my response was fitting for this forum topic, as in why wow is #21 on the list here. Icogames brought up SWG as our difference of opinion on SWG being dead on arrival.
I'm simply pointing out the shortcomings of WoW to explain it's #21 ranking here, how about it, you wanna take a shot at the topic at hand? Or just want to continue you bad attempt at forum hijacking?
Also on another note it's hard to be objective with someone like you, you haven't got the first objective opinion of wow and the mention of anything needing fixing you jump at the chance to attack. Believe it or not but people other than yourself have genuine gripes about what is broken or needs serious attention in WoW. Just because you feel this or have Heartfelt feelings about how much you love the game is really not my concern.
Sandbox playstyle is one of the very things missing from WoW and that very Prefab type gameplay is why it it becoming Dull and why it is listed at #21. Now when this topic becomes ( why I love WoW ) or ( No one knows my WoW feelings) or better yet ( WoW emotions unlocked) then you know I probably won't have anything negative to say, ... or for that matter even reply to the topic, But until then Cheerio.
Cabe2323 said: "World of Warcraft is not an example of the MMO marketplace. It is an example of Blizzard's marketing and brand recognition power." I would have agreed with this except for one thing. SOE/Lucas Arts and Star Wars have waaaay more brand recognition and marketing than Blizzard and SWG tanked.
Except that isn't true.
Sure Star Wars has huge brand recognition for pop culture but it wasn't as big in the PC gaming market. Blizzard on the other hand had around 20+ million people using Battle.net worldwide. That is 20+million people that they advertised to about World of Warcraft who might not of ever heard of another MMO in that time frame.
People honestly underestimate the power of advertising and also the power of being the "Top Dog". More people want to play WoW because people are playing WoW.
So all a game needs to do is advertise and/or have a built in player base?
Case in point: The Sims Online. No bigger PC game franchise anywhere. What went wrong? It has all the hallmarks that you claim equal instant success. That game should be a monster success right?
How about Dungeons and Dragons? Lord of the RIngs? Warhammer.. Conan..
Obviously there is something more required that just spending money on marketing. Advertising might get people to try your product, but it will not make them repeat customers.
The highlighted line in yellow says it all. Your conclusion is that Warcraft is only popular, because it is so popular.
Case in point: Everquest was popular, so why wasn't EQ2?
Comments
All the ranking on this website means is that there are not a lot of WoW fans here. For WoW to make #20 doesnt mean I have to rank 20 games above it. I just need to rank 1 above it. So if I (and many others) rank Asheron's Call highly, and others rank LotRO highly, and others WAR, etc. this is what pushes down WoW, not someone ranking 20 games above it, but thousands ranking their own favorite game higher.
Games played/playing: Asheron's Call, AC2, SWG, GW, LotRO (Beta), DnDO (Beta), WoW
The ratings are an average, not a sum. A game that many have liked and many have disliked will be rated lower than one that few have liked and far fewer have disliked.
Are there 20 MMORPGs that I'd like better than WoW? I haven't played enough to know for certain, but probably. As far as how much I've liked the MMORPGs I've played goes, WoW was about average, or perhaps a little below average.
Now, that is a self-selecting sample, as if it's obvious that I'll dislike a game, I never play it in the first place. If I were to play every single MMORPG ever made, WoW would probably come out substantially above average.
I'm going to go ahead and agree with the McDonalds WoW analogy. It applies here.
Every but can get something from WoW, but there's probably a better MMO suited to your needs out there.
WoW is a pretty good game, but it's made for the LCDs and soccer moms out there to be able to play it and feel like they're succeeding when in reality it's all being handed to them.
WoW fanboi: "lolz 11.5 million customers, itz obviously da best"
McDonald's: over 1 billion burgers served
For all that WoW does right... there is still a lot that it does 'wrong', in my opinion.
I'm not sure what it is, but it seems that I really didn't notice the high level of asshattery amongst gamers until I played WoW. The overall poor community feel to the game and lack of indivuality really sets the game back in many ways for me.
Community - Unless you are in a good guild, forget any real meaningful, educational, or good conversation with the public. As soon as 1 person asks a legit question, 10 people chime in with 'noob', 'anal (spell/item/whatever)', or something.
Of the 3 servers that I have played on... and the guilds I've been involved with on those servers, none of them really did much as a guild other than RAID for gear. Help levelling? Level/quest together... forget it. You are welcome into the guild as long as you can help them get their gear.
Nothing in this game really ties the members of the factions together. Teams in BG's? Bah. The biggest leap in open world PvP in WoW has come with Achievements that somewhat promote Cap City raids.
With 12 million people playing this game... there should be some of the most EPIC Open World battles of ANY game, bar none. Even when you do get a good skirmish going... it doesn't do anything to the game world.
honestly for all the crap people say about the community it isnt that bad for every douche bag in general chat theres also 1 person who will legit help that goes for every game. people only single out wow in this category because you notice this more because of the large population.
To be honest I was glad when this thread died and dismayed when someone ressurrected it over a month later, because there has not been one reasoned statement in this entire thread.
To hear people say that the game was designed for "simpletons" and "soccer moms", that the game has "no challenge", that it can be completely defined as an older MMORPG polished up, that it has no depth... the people making these statements are not actually making any measured commentary or criticism about the game, they are thinly-vieled digs to those of us who do enjoy it.
I don't have a problem with people criticising the game, but that is not what is happening here. WoW is far from perfect and there are many things that could be improved. Almost unbelievably, noone has mentioned any single one of those problems, and are instead regurgitating the same old crap people in other games have commented about WoW in their own chat channels without ever actually playing it or trying it for more than a few hours.
You don't criticise media by calling its fans soccer moms. You guys have no interest or idea about what makes WoW as good as it is. You either actually do realize it but are in some kind of Freudian denial about itor you are subscribing to the very Freudian and "trendy" standpoint of hating something very popular.
Now let this thread die and get out of the WoW forums and back to the forums of the games you no longer play anyway.
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
I missed the whole thread, then again, I'm no WoW player
mmorpgs are new to a lot of people who play wow and thats why its popular.
OK, since you want this thread to die, lets keep the answer simple enough for even a WOW player to understand it.
The game is rated here as it is because the greater forum membership overall (who bother to rate games, I personally don't) doesn't like WOW for one or more reasons.
Not all of those reasons are rational, or shared by everyone, but whatever they are, it means in the end many people who rate games don't like WOW.
You've actually ignored some very good reasons, WOW isn't very challenging tbh, (say compared to Lineage 2, if a person thinks a good grind is a what a MMO needs) or deep (say compared to EVE, where there is no endgame) or is graphically inept (compared to say, AOC).
You seem to be accusing us of being elitist, when in fact the very tone of your posts is extremely condesending, (i.e."get out of the WOW forums and back to the forums of the games you no longer play anyway.") which an attitude that none of us feels any WOW player has a right to.
Hey, you started this thread, we responded. If you don't like the answers, well all I can say is:
Go back to WOW.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
No Kyleran, you have misunderstood utterly and, case in point, have said that WoW has no challenge - this is a classic regurgitated argument, that after I completely rebuke it, people just turn the argument to yet another logicial fallacy, and it's getting tiring to see people just repeating what they hear other posters saying but not actually being able to argue the point for themselves.
No "challenge"? Compared to WHAT? Exactly? You know already that this is a poor argument.
Would you like me to poke the huge gaping flaws in this argument, the huge fallacy of the 'challenge' in Lineage 2 for example. Long level grind doesn't equal challenge. Killing thousands upon thousands of mosters might take a very long time, but it's only time we're talking about.
Same with any other MMORPG because unlike what people seem to think I have actually played them and it's doesn't take a genius to realize these games are not about challenge at all. Not EVE online, WAR, AOC or any of that.
You mention pretentiousness but it's the players that think that the games they play require some kind of special intellect or skill to play that are the ones being pretentious.
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
lol @ ;Lineage 2 being challenging. Is there really a mmorpg out there that is truely challenging? I mean come on , I've played damn near all of the ones worth playing. I've yet to see anything so revolutionary that my kids couldn't play it. Do some have a higher learning curve that others ..perhaps. But once you have everything down , all of them are highly simple.
just ignore the rating there just lot of haters on this site.
you're talking about these right? http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/show/all/sCol/rankHype/sOrder/desc
just look at it lot of the mmos there are not even out is a joke and lot of them are gonna fail.
Unless you're required to wear a safety helment 24/7, I have to agree Bama. Sure there are challenging elements to every game (Vael comes to mind with WoW), but c'mon people lets face facts that MMOs aren't overly complicated. Given some time, most players can master, or at least become profecient in, any system.
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Are there 20 other MMO's that are better than WoW ? I would have to say heck no.
Rankings from this site should be taken with a grain of salt. Just as rankings for a SOE game on the PS3 site are biased.
Most of the community here are vet MMO gamers. They look at WoW with disdain and disgust. WoW is viewed as destructive to the MMO genre.
I can understand this hatred. My beloved game, Star Wars Galaxies was utterly destroyed by WoW's success. The original Combat Revamp was exactly what the community asked for. Player input had a heavy influence on it. Then along comes WoW and suddenly SOE changes the skill based game into a level based one. When I personally asked Tiggs at Celebration 3 why they dumped the player suggested Revamp for this abomination, the response was "we wanted the game to have more broad appeal". WoW's influence was clear.
The Combat Upgrade didnt go far enough to mimick WoW and gain the masses SOE coveted. So SOE decided to develop a WoW clone with a quasi-fps system. They destroyed the player economy. They destroyed 2.5 years of work. They knew these changes would be hated so they kept it a secret from the community until 2 days after the last expansion launched. The NGE took away a home for 200k players.
Since that time those 200k refugees have searched and searched for another MMO home. What we constantly get is yet another WoW clone. With each launch we pray for a similiar system where you can just be a crafter and its not a secondary lamo skill like WoW has. Each time we remove the clone from our hard drives and watch Seinfeld reruns hoping another MMO like SWG comes.
I played WoW on and off for 3 years. Ive raided with a top 500 USA guild. Ive reached the top each expansion. And each time after I beat the game, I cancelled. Linear games like WoW bore me. Once you get that 5/5 piece of tier armor, its game over.
Skill based games really have no ending. And I miss the little things like housing, npc vendors, resources with stats.
Finally, one thing often overlooked with an MMO. Its community. The one thing that made me quit over anything else is the community in WoW. A game like LOTR is very similiar to WoW but the community is a 100 times more mature. WoW brought a lot of new players to the MMO scene and many are just awful. Theyre young, immature, inexperienced, bad at their class, etc. A pug in LOTR is nearly always a decent run. A pug in WoW is a freakin nightmare half the time.
Trade chat in WoW rarely ever contains actual trade chatter. Its usually Chuck Norris jokes, or political rants, or really awful chat I cant repeat here. Getting an invite for a group is usually a blind one, no "hey wanna do - instance". And if you dare tell the kid its rude to blind invite someone you get a STFU response.
battle grounds are where you really see some awful players. Ive pulled my hair out screaming in sheer frustration at the jerks ive met in BG's. Typical experiences include someone not at their desk so you lose the tower because of it. My personal favorite, the player who watches you die because he thinks its funny or because he is mad that you took the flag first. Oh and there are the jerks that could care less about winning, theyre just there for honor kills.
If I had to rate the community for WoW, it wouldnt make the top 50. The game itself rates a top 5 for sure based on its clean gameplay. For what WoW does, it does very well. But its success has definitely hurt the industry. Yes it brought in at least 5-7 million brand new MMO players. I doubt though that evn 10% of those new to MMO's will stick around in the genre. Which is ironic because the last 5+ MMO's developed were aiming to appeal to those same gamers. Diablo 3 will do more damage to WoW subscriptions than any MMO will do.
Except that isn't true.
Sure Star Wars has huge brand recognition for pop culture but it wasn't as big in the PC gaming market. Blizzard on the other hand had around 20+ million people using Battle.net worldwide. That is 20+million people that they advertised to about World of Warcraft who might not of ever heard of another MMO in that time frame.
People honestly underestimate the power of advertising and also the power of being the "Top Dog". More people want to play WoW because people are playing WoW.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Challenge in MMO terms?
For some it would be competing for a Raid Mob with other guilds. That was considered a huge "challenge" in Everquest 1. You as a WoW player would probably consider it an inconvience but for a lot of players it was a "Challenge".
For others it would be world meaningful PVP. For example RVR in Dark Age of Camelot. The very fact that you could be extremely outnumbered was considered challenging. In WoW PVP revolves around Arenas where every player is fully prepared and gets access to every single one of thier best skills. A lot of people would consider this not very challenging.
You dismiss the "Challenge" of lineage 2 but it just like Asheron's Call 1 was considered a "Challenge" by many players. That Long level grind is a "Challenge" for some since not everyone has the commitment to devote the necessary time to complete this "Challenge". Similar to that raid in FFXI that took 18+ hours or some crap. That would be considered a "Challenge" to some.
Another way that people would consider other MMOs challenging is gameplay for example in Asheron's Call 1. There were dungeons that required you to make jumps across pits and you would die if you missed. (Kind of like an Adventure game or Console Game) Some people would consider this more challenging.
The best example I have seen is an article that was done on Massively. They talked about WoW and compared it to other games. It showed how WoW has all of these features but pretty much every feature (They felt and many MMO fans do as well) another game did better. The difference is WoW does all of them pretty well and those other games were lacking in areas.
So yes It is safe to say that WoW is not challenging. I have never felt "Challenged" in World of Warcraft. Not in PVP or PVE.
Recant you might try to say you have debunked this opinion but that just isn't true. Sure you might feel that the game is challenging but that isn't the general opinion of most people. Most people like the game for the very reason that it is easy to play and enjoy. So many people that are casual players mention how they like the game because it is easy and doesn't feel like a "Job" to them.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
okay specifics then...
Gear - In most MMO's Ive played, gear is a reflection of talent, skill, and ability. In SWG if someone saw my saber with perfect pearls, they know I kicked an ancient krayt's ass ( a real accomplishment as it took 45 min to kill one). If someone saw my belt with a +16 melee attack speed attachment they knew I must have killed a really powerful npc (like a dark jedi master). My gear proved I was an amazing accomplished jedi. I got respect and admiration in a game like SWG because of my accomplishments.
In World of Warcraft my gear doesnt mean crap. Any player regardless of skill, talent, or ability can get the best gear. WoW is too easy and gear too simple to get. Any bad player can gear up. It cheapens the accomplishment when the worst least skilled players are wearing the exact same gear as you are (assuming you have decent skill). Everyone is the exact same.
Another example...
level based system compared to skills - In a skill based system my gear actually matters. In a level based system gear doesnt matter at all. Sure epic gear means you wil kill a mob a few seconds faster than someone in greens, but in the end you both will kill that mob.
Many guilds proved this in BC expansion. Some guilds were able to raid and clear BT in tier 3 lvl 60 gear. Only their level really mattered as they proved. Sure gear makes life easier but its not necessary for success in a level system
The reason is not very commonly known to wow gamers because they are new to MMO's. Its called a Damage Multiplier system. Basically it works like this...
you fight a same level mob as you. mob will hit you for base damage x1 always. You will hit mob for base damage x1.
You fight a mob 5 levels above you. Mob will hit you for base damage x5 always. You will hit mob for base damage -5.
The numbers are of course not specific but essentially it means a mob 5 levels above you will likely always will you regardless of skills, talent, or gear. And you will always kill a mob 5 levels below you again regardless of skills, talent, or gear.
It is the bane of a level based game. Its not you that determines any outcome, its the damage multiplier.
This isnt the case with skill based games where gear, talent, and skills make the difference.
Another example....
zones - wow makes zones based on mob levels. The problems with this are numerous. For starters, once you outlevel an area it becomes obsolete. Finish your grind at Ungoro and move on to Plaguelands. You will never have a reason to go back to Ungoro crater ever again.
This seperates players as well. Someone new and grinding a toon these days will likely never see another player in Ungoro.
It also makes hunting rather lame and predictable.
Another example....
player economy - it doesnt exist for starters. The main issue is Blizz gave everyone waaaaaayyyyy too many character slots so interdependence is non-existant. If a player can make all items with 5 different toons he doesnt need to interact with other players.
Crafting is a secondary skill that anyone can take up. Therefore there are a million enchanters, a million engineers, a million miners, etc. The only reason anyone even bothers to grind a crafting prof is so they wont have to rely on another player...again an issue with interdependence.
the economy and crafting are totally pointless and only serve to allow players to avoid each other.
There are many more examples that show World of Warcraft is an inferior product. The fact that most wow gamers remain ignorant to this is simply because they dont know any better. And its very irritating that developers continue to make clones to attract them when I suspect most arent a permanent member of the MMO genre. I bet if any game takes millions of wow gamers, it wont be another MMO but possibly Diablo 3. Makes sense as many new to wow came from Battlenet
It's really sad to see people bash WoW this bad. I see alot of elitist threads saying the NEW gamers attracted by WoW suck so the game sucks. PuGs are aweful....blah blah blah. I have been playing online games since Shadows of Yserbius. If you know the game then you know how long. The big problem with the MMO industry in the past was that all the MMO's were niche games. You had the grinders, Lineage and Evercrack. The sandbox, UO, and a few other games like AO(when it was buggy as hell). You had the pvp games, DAOC.
Warcraft was definately not bug free on launch it lacked a lot of end game content and was very imbalanced. The thing that set Wow ahead of everyother game was it's user friendly interface. The quests were easy to understand and complete. Combat flowed very nice compared to other MMO's. It wasn't 'clunky' The atmosphere of the zones felt right! It was a game that I could get my wife, who doesn't play games to try and like! You couldn't do that with alot of the other MMO's. Also the customer support is top notch. Blizzard was patching and adding content almost every month within the first few years. The world was always getting bigger.
Sure Wow is not what it was. Everyone has heard of it or played it. When your on top it's easy to want to criticize. I have left the game numerous times for other MMO's: TR, AoC, WAR, and Eve. I find myself coming back because of old Raid friends or just because I really did have fun playing it. I just had to play something else. I can't play one game my whole life.
Simple facts!
1: everyone cannot be pleased
2: everyone hates elitist jerks! (except the website)
3: wow helped the industry, even if you don't like the results, more money is being spent to make better mmos due to wow's success. DEAL WITH IT
4: Jenkins is not the most used last name in America, just the most annoying.
I highly doubt most of the posters on this site are 'vets'; most just need something to hate on and well ... it's cool to take shots at the king I suppose.
SWG was DOA, Blizzard just put the nail in the coffin. Many would agree that SWG was a great game in concept only. Had SOE not 'taken' the game away, I suspect few would be discussing it today.
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
I highly doubt most of the posters on this site are 'vets'; most just need something to hate on and well ... it's cool to take shots at the king I suppose.
SWG was DOA, Blizzard just put the nail in the coffin. Many would agree that SWG was a great game in concept only. Had SOE not 'taken' the game away, I suspect few would be discussing it today.
Actually the original SWG was a fun game those Sony IDIOTS did a number on it, I didn't get to play it long before they ruined it, was very upset. WOW is ranked #21 becuase many game elements wow simply does not have that older, good, mmorpgs did have. It simplified the genre for mass appeal ( idiots ) and in turn many good games like SWG became bad wow rip offs and died a tragic death, since most people not playing wow, do NOT want to play a wow clone, taking the good thing SWG was and turning it into Tardsville online wasn't a good idea.
WoW started a myth of there being no such thing as class balance and that is was just not possible, you know like when Hillary said the election was hopelessly deadlocked, you know BS.
Wow is a non immersive world where everything is predictable and nothing is hard to do, nothing is custimizable or unique amongst players, their is NO sandbox at all, no single element. It is a bland, weak Warner Brothers fantasy cartoon and just gets boring. Some people just don't want that.
I highly doubt most of the posters on this site are 'vets'; most just need something to hate on and well ... it's cool to take shots at the king I suppose.
SWG was DOA, Blizzard just put the nail in the coffin. Many would agree that SWG was a great game in concept only. Had SOE not 'taken' the game away, I suspect few would be discussing it today.
Wow is a non immersive world where everything is predictable and nothing is hard to do, nothing is custimizable or unique amongst players, their is NO sandbox at all, no single element. It is a bland, weak Warner Brothers fantasy cartoon and just gets boring. Some people just don't want that.
I Actually loved Warner Brothers cartoons. And yes "some" people do want that and what I can't understand are people who have to bash the game 24/7 whehn its obvious they don't want that!?! I do not wanta sandbox and you do not see me in the SWg forums bashing it do you? So why do we have to put up with it here?
There I went ahead and fixed my quote you edited, you left out most of it . Anyway you have to put up with it because unlike you my response was fitting for this forum topic, as in why wow is #21 on the list here. Icogames brought up SWG as our difference of opinion on SWG being dead on arrival.
I'm simply pointing out the shortcomings of WoW to explain it's #21 ranking here, how about it, you wanna take a shot at the topic at hand? Or just want to continue you bad attempt at forum hijacking?
Also on another note it's hard to be objective with someone like you, you haven't got the first objective opinion of wow and the mention of anything needing fixing you jump at the chance to attack. Believe it or not but people other than yourself have genuine gripes about what is broken or needs serious attention in WoW. Just because you feel this or have Heartfelt feelings about how much you love the game is really not my concern.
Sandbox playstyle is one of the very things missing from WoW and that very Prefab type gameplay is why it it becoming Dull and why it is listed at #21. Now when this topic becomes ( why I love WoW ) or ( No one knows my WoW feelings) or better yet ( WoW emotions unlocked) then you know I probably won't have anything negative to say, ... or for that matter even reply to the topic, But until then Cheerio.
Except that isn't true.
Sure Star Wars has huge brand recognition for pop culture but it wasn't as big in the PC gaming market. Blizzard on the other hand had around 20+ million people using Battle.net worldwide. That is 20+million people that they advertised to about World of Warcraft who might not of ever heard of another MMO in that time frame.
People honestly underestimate the power of advertising and also the power of being the "Top Dog". More people want to play WoW because people are playing WoW.
So all a game needs to do is advertise and/or have a built in player base?
Case in point: The Sims Online. No bigger PC game franchise anywhere. What went wrong? It has all the hallmarks that you claim equal instant success. That game should be a monster success right?
How about Dungeons and Dragons? Lord of the RIngs? Warhammer.. Conan..
Obviously there is something more required that just spending money on marketing. Advertising might get people to try your product, but it will not make them repeat customers.
The highlighted line in yellow says it all. Your conclusion is that Warcraft is only popular, because it is so popular.
Case in point: Everquest was popular, so why wasn't EQ2?
This thread can be summed up in one line:
"SOE took my game because WoW was successful, so I'm bitter"
Hardly a good reason to necro it, just let it die along with the negative feelings that the years old SOE decision created.