He is not talking about EQ or EQ2 specifically in your quotes.
I quoted you specifically in my preceding post that they denied and said witout any doubt that they would not add RMT to EQ or EQ2. Only a fool would not agree.
It's pretty arrogant of you to tell me I'm wrong when I just provided you evidence and I actually played EQ at the time and I actually was there on the forum when they wrote said quotes.
If you would like to walk around pretending to be correct when you are not, be my guest.
He is not talking about EQ or EQ2 specifically in your quotes. Semantics. He is talking about the overall strategy for SOE. That would include EQ and EQ2 since they're part of the SOE lineup. I quoted you specifically in my preceding post that they denied and said witout any doubt that they would not add RMT to EQ or EQ2. Only a fool would not agree. They might have initially said that they were not going to apply this to any of their current games, but clearly, they changed their minds. If you would like to walk around pretending to be correct when you are not, be my guest. And if you'd like to walk around pretending that Sony isn't moving towards microtransactions and RMT as a company, be my guest. The signs have been there for some time. It is not their fault that some folks willingly plugged their ears and refused to pay attention.
He is not talking about EQ or EQ2 specifically in your quotes. Semantics. He is talking about the overall strategy for SOE. That would include EQ and EQ2 since they're part of the SOE lineup.
Incorrect, not semantics, that's called an Argumentum Ad Hominem.
Hon, I'm done arguing with you. It's obvious when you are backed into a corner that you refuse to admit you were wrong. Have a fun day.
Bwahahaha! Too funny.
I'm not the one who can't see the obvious writing on the wall. Sony has been moving in this direction for years. They have said so publicly. Just because you deluded yourself into thinking that EQ and EQ2 were somehow immune from that isn't my problem.
Your argument for innovation, creativity et al would be bolstered a hell of a lot if you didn't keep referring to the fourth sequel of a massively successful single player franchise. And an evolutionary, bug-infested sequel at that. Screaming out "We want INNOVATION!" while holding the fourth retread of an idea (or eighth, if you want to go back to the 2D versions of GTA and the non-numbered sequels) really shows the shallowness of your entire rant.
EQ / EQ2 have only had marginal MMO relevance for years. RMT / microtrans models have been shown to be very successful payment models for a variety of MMOs. It works because players don't have to pay if they don't want to. How's that? If you don't want any of the items, you don't have to pay to play. Compare that to a monthly sub, where you have to pay regardless of your opinion at the latest content if you want to keep playing.
As has been pointed out - and which you've pointedly ignored, preferring to play the matyr - there are plenty of other different titles out there to play. You could go back to where all the "freedom" originally came from and play UO. Perhaps you could try Dreamlords, an MMORTS. Or EvE, which stands out in a class by itself. Or Chronicles of Spellborn or Darkfall, both held up as great white hopes for the future of MMOs. Or a ton of other titles - take a look through the list available here at MMORPG. Try some out.
... but I think you'd rather be up on your soapbox, throwing out buzzwords that you don't even understand.
Hon, I'm done arguing with you. It's obvious when you are backed into a corner that you refuse to admit you were wrong. Have a fun day.
It is really not worth it, and I am not sure what her agenda is, perhaps to release real-life stress. The concept of a choice being involuntary is beyond her.
And you are exactly right. I have been a consumer of SOE games for, gosh, how many years now? Since the release of EQ 1.
I am blinded-sided by the "electronic wallet" thing and considering cancelling my three accounts.
I don't think that is the same thing. This is a service that has nothing to do with items. This is a service that someone at blizzard will have to do on their side thus a fee is required. It is not the same thing at all, I consider this similar to a server transfer.
I think that is an excellent point, and I somewhat overlooked it.
It is a "service" that has no impaterial, material or slight, on the game. A system, in-game, that was free to recustomize a person's character would be preferrable.
Let's hope, and prayer, however, this is not the beginning of an industry-wide "change" in payment schemes, designed to suck more money out of the MMORPG consumer (MMORPG gamers).
It is really not worth it, and I am not sure what her agenda is, perhaps to release real-life stress. The concept of a choice being involuntary is beyond her.
What real life stress? I don't have any. My life is quite good, actually.
Also, my "agenda" is to point out the fact that Sony has been moving in this direction for years, and have said it publicly. Just because you all deluded yourselves into thinking that EQ and EQ2 would be immune from full RMT and microtransactions is not my fault. This has been an obvious change in direction for well over a year and a half now.
And I'm sorry, but when it comes to MMO's, and whether or not to play them, there is no such thing as an involuntary choice, unless you're forcibly banned from a game, or the game shuts down. That's it. Other than that, the choice is entirely up to you.
And I'm sorry, but when it comes to MMO's, and whether or not to play them, there is no such thing as an involuntary choice, unless you're forcibly banned from a game, or the game shuts down. That's it. Other than that, the choice is entirely up to you.
I do not know if you are limiting the involuntary choice concept as you understand exclusively to MMORPGs or to other areas as well. I am not going to even touch on duress, coercion, necessity, and other ways in which a choice, though a choice, is an involuntary one.
Repetitive, boring gameplay;
Uninspiring Worlds;
Payment Schemes; and
Other
Have resulted in many (many) of us involuntarily giving-up on MMORPGs; we want to play. We have the will, desire, and money (and computer(s)) but not the game.
It is an involuntary choice.
World - Not a Game
MMORPGs are fascinating, as a concept, because the possibilities could be limitless in terms of customization, exploration, features, activities, content options, and gameplay abilities. Most people, and those who have worked (or will work) in management positions probably do understand that people like structure, clear rules, and direction. You can have autonomy, and structure, in MMORPGs because ordinary rules of life do not apply.
Some of us, known as "immersion gamers," want to return to the concept of the MMORPG as a work of art, inspired by literature.
We are shocked by the creative direction of MMORPGs, and the payment scheme methods are but another wrongful move in this industry.
All of that sounds like a personal problem, not some mythical "involuntary" choice. BTW, I'm talking about MMO's exclusively here, not whatever nonsense you're wanting to trot out about coercion or duress. Let's stick to the subject at hand, which is MMO's, okay?
When it comes to the decision of whether or not to play a game, you're not facing a lack of choice. There are dozens, if not hundreds, of MMO's out there. The problem is that you're living in a pie-in-the-sky, unrealistic world with expectations for a game that no company could ever hope to meet, no matter how much money and time they spent in development.
You want a perfect fantasy world that will magically work exactly the way you want it to, and which will fall down at your feet and worship you as the hero you want to be. That game will never exist, and you will always be disappointed if you stick to such naive expectations. All MMO's have flaws, and they will all fall short in some form or fashion from whatever over-hyped expectations that people have. The key is just to find a game that you find fun and entertaining, and enjoy your time in it while it lasts.
It may be personal to me in the sense that is it personal to the hundreds of thousands out there who want a more sophisticated game, though accessible, with more depth and even slightly more challenge.
People have played WoW. People do not want a WoW-clone. I speak with many people daily through AIM, many of whom are not playing a game or tell me they are temporarily playing WoW.
The market for "immersion gamers" is vast and has untapped potential.
And I'm sorry, but when it comes to MMO's, and whether or not to play them, there is no such thing as an involuntary choice, unless you're forcibly banned from a game, or the game shuts down. That's it. Other than that, the choice is entirely up to you.
I do not know if you are limiting the involuntary choice concept as you understand exclusively to MMORPGs or to other areas as well. I am not going to even touch on duress, coercion, necessity, and other ways in which a choice, though a choice, is an involuntary one.
Repetitive, boring gameplay;
Uninspiring Worlds;
Payment Schemes; and
Other
Have resulted in many (many) of us involuntarily giving-up on MMORPGs; we want to play. We have the will, desire, and money (and computer(s)) but not the game.
It is an involuntary choice.
World - Not a Game
MMORPGs are fascinating, as a concept, because the possibilities could be limitless in terms of customization, exploration, features, activities, content options, and gameplay abilities. Most people, and those who have worked (or will work) in management positions probably do understand that people like structure, clear rules, and direction. You can have autonomy, and structure, in MMORPGs because ordinary rules of life do not apply.
Some of us, known as "immersion gamers," want to return to the concept of the MMORPG as a work of art, inspired by literature.
We are shocked by the creative direction of MMORPGs, and the payment scheme methods are but another wrongful move in this industry.
You have one problem. You are bored with MMORPG's as they exist.
I don't have any problem. I am living in the world of Warcraft. It's a world alright. Coming home at the bar in Dalaran after a good night's adventures with friends and friendly chat.
And the good news is, each day I get phones and talk with people in RL about those adventures we had last night. And it's a continuing story for 3 years and more.
The problem is : it is all out there, but you have to have fun and be IN it.
You can't be "in the zone" anymore. That's a pity for you, not for me. I am not interested in your changing moods to piss on present day MMORPG's.
Why do I follow MMORPG.COM? , because I still want to be in touch with the "latest" developments. And I am pretty pleased that I am still in the game with the very latest developments (phasing, vehicles, gigantic fortresses, dragons to fly, believable fantasy). All there and very cheap compared to other hobbies.
I am in there and choosing what I want to do, living and playing there with RL and Cyber friends. Today I am gonna do a reputation work. I am going to get revered with a faction. Correction it will take me two days, because the quests are limited per day. After that I'll take my Netherwing Dragon and fly to Dalaran and I chat with the friends at the bar.
I have the complete books on Azeroth, comics series, some CCards - even with in game items - the philharmonic music. So the lore is there and I am in it (for 2 hours a day, sometimes more). Just like I have the complete TT books on that great TT WH miniatures game and those legendary books of Middle Earth. But as an MMORPG I am living in the World of Warcraft.
Am I paying for these adventures? Yep 12 Euro a month. Would I pay for in game items? No. Do I worry about this. No because I don't care. Am I caring for those other 11 million guys and girls and how they feel? Not if they are dwelling and complaining in my world. They don't exist in Areroth either. Curiously they don't exist there at my stole in the bar.
Sorry if you don't see the obvious anymore and want to go back to times where 10 pixels and a broken modem line were much better times.
Sorry if you don't see the obvious anymore and want to go back to times where 10 pixels and a broken modem line were much better times.
I do not know if it is the way I write or something altogether different. I have consistently, if not constantly, talked about, in this forum and topic, the need to "innovate" which is harnessing technology and developing new tools.
Many of us, I suspect in the hundreds of thousands at least, want a more sophisticated game than WoW, which is not a WoW-clone.
If you think about it, at least for me, it is not that complicated.
It might be how I write, which is why I sometimes center:
I talk about innovation, new tools, player empowerment, evolving worlds.
You say "10 pixels" and that scares me; it scares me because it is so opposite what I say. I am scared because (1) you cannot understand what I write or (2) my writing is so bad you cannot understand it.
Sorry if you don't see the obvious anymore and want to go back to times where 10 pixels and a broken modem line were much better times.
I do not know if it is the way I write or something altogether different. I have consistently, if not constantly, talked about, in this forum and topic, the need to "innovate" which is harnessing technology and developing new tools.
Many of us, I suspect in the hundreds of thousands at least, want a more sophisticated game than WoW, which is not a WoW-clone.
If you think about it, at least for me, it is not that complicated.
It might be how I write, which is why I sometimes center:
I talk about innovation, new tools, player empowerment, evolving worlds.
You say "10 pixels" and that scares me; it scares me because it is so opposite what I say. I am scared because (1) you cannot understand what I write or (2) my writing is so bad you cannot understand it.
The problem is just that.
Reread what I wrote above.
You are no longer " in the zone", you're out of it. Your mood has gone to play . I am confident when I see a world change to my avatar in WOW. You don't accept that fact and the phasing and "sophistication" isn't there anymore.
Np. But you expect the moon, while millions of people are having fun on earth. Come back to earth.
An experience works as long as the indiviual wants it to work. That applies to all formats of entertainment. Be it paper wargames, miniatures, books, Donky Kong 64.
You are that miniatures wargamer who suddenly realizes he's playing with painted tin and is no longer fighting a battle, while the rest of his comrades are commanding the Napoleonic guard as if they were IN it and be the General.
Only 1 problem.
The problem is you are no longer in the zone of present day MMORPG's. No matter what they invent.
Reread what I wrote above. You are no longer " in the zone", you're out of it. Your mood has gone to play . I am confident when I see a world change to my avatar in WOW. You don't accept that fact and the phasing and "sophistication" isn't there anymore. Np. But you expect the moon, while millions of people are having fun on earth. Come back to earth. An experience works as long as the indiviual wants it to work. That applies to all formats of entertainment. Be it paper wargames, miniatures, books, Donky Kong 64. You are that miniatures wargamer who suddenly realizes he's playing with painted tin and is no longer fighting a battle, while the rest of his comrades are commanding the Napoleonic guard as if they were IN it and be the General. Only 1 problem. The problem is you are no longer in the zone of present day MMORPG's. No matter what they invent.
I have the heart and stomach of an immersion gamer, and my mood and appetite for gaming is as strong as it ever has been.
My "problem" with the MMORPG titles presently on the market is not only that in the area of content, gameplay, immersion, and so forth but with this payment scheme direction.
If we are going to talk about WoW, however, I will concede that the game has many merits to it. I ran a guild in WoW that was very successful but I became bored, quickly, with raiding. I would even say that WoW did not have the depth of Everquest 1. I dislike pigeonholing my character in some kind of "specialization," and it is not even voluntary to choose a specialization. You must select one of three. Graphic-wise the game was unappealing as well. The humor was, overall. childish.
Out-of-touch? I will tell you what, Leeroy Jenkins things seem utterly absurd to me. I do not say that with a frown, or smile, but just kind of like... wiping a raid and shouting leeeroy is the humor + chuck norris jokes? In that case, I am so out-of-touch it is not funny!
Edit: Everyone is basically the same in WoW. The path is linear. The graphics are not appealing. The world feels ... like a game too much. Yes. I know. A game. Combat is repetitive. Most things are predictable, and raid targets are very routine.
Give me a world. Give me customization. Give me fun.
I love freedom. I love options. I like opportunities. I am not a linear kind of gamer. And I actually dislike Chuck Norris jokes. I can almost not stand them. They should be banned. And uttering Leeroy Jenkins should result in a perma-ban.
Your argument for innovation, creativity et al would be bolstered a hell of a lot if you didn't keep referring to the fourth sequel of a massively successful single player franchise. And an evolutionary, bug-infested sequel at that. Screaming out "We want INNOVATION!" while holding the fourth retread of an idea (or eighth, if you want to go back to the 2D versions of GTA and the non-numbered sequels) really shows the shallowness of your entire rant.
EQ / EQ2 have only had marginal MMO relevance for years. RMT / microtrans models have been shown to be very successful payment models for a variety of MMOs. It works because players don't have to pay if they don't want to. How's that? If you don't want any of the items, you don't have to pay to play. Compare that to a monthly sub, where you have to pay regardless of your opinion at the latest content if you want to keep playing.
As has been pointed out - and which you've pointedly ignored, preferring to play the matyr - there are plenty of other different titles out there to play. You could go back to where all the "freedom" originally came from and play UO. Perhaps you could try Dreamlords, an MMORTS. Or EvE, which stands out in a class by itself. Or Chronicles of Spellborn or Darkfall, both held up as great white hopes for the future of MMOs. Or a ton of other titles - take a look through the list available here at MMORPG. Try some out.
... but I think you'd rather be up on your soapbox, throwing out buzzwords that you don't even understand.
Funny thing is, unsub, UO has this kind of thing allready. Also, thoes that keep calling this RMT, its not.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
Originally posted by DeserttFoxx I already moved back to single player RPGs, i have no faith in future MMOs, even great companies like Bioware have me doubting they can do it on a world scale, despite mass effect and KOTOR.
That's the same with me.
My problem with MMOs is the insistent need to group and join guilds to even get the most out of the game. I just want to play without the ever increaing ingame time commitments (which guilds force on players); the soap operas; the dramas; the "IpwnU, [type in choice cuss word]" attitudes; and the MEMEMEness of players who just want to power level.
A lot of people leave MMOs without even saying way, they move on. But there has to be 1001 reasons other than what is yelled about on these types of forums why they leave.
The sum of the whole is that MMOs can't cater just to specific groups, it has to unite them under one umbrella that's tolerable to all the different play styles. Be it a crafter who only wants to craft (and it being a REAL profession, not secondary to adventuring); the PvPer who wants to kill anything sentient; to the Indiana Jones types who want to explore and find treasure (not necessary kill everything to get it); and your raiders who want to kill and break stuff for some braggable gear.
The ultimate MMO will be like a real city, with real people playing virtual careers. Barbers; bakers; butchers; farmers; tailors; carpenters; armorers; street sweepers; garbageman; jailers; cops; firemen; politicians; thieves; mercenaries; militiamen; priests; mages; sages...the list goes on. Each with their own rites and requirements (yes, even the street sweeper and garbageman). Coding it would be a nightmare, but giving a Wall Street banker the ability to play a priest he couldn't be in real life, is a powerful draw to get more than just hardcore gamers into MMOs.
I don't really care so much about artwork or visuals (as the limitations of pixels will remain for many years), but the ability to play a role that's something different and rewarding. Not running around killing mobs for "lewtz". It gets old and tiring for the nth time under various game names.
All of that sounds like a personal problem, not some mythical "involuntary" choice. BTW, I'm talking about MMO's exclusively here, not whatever nonsense you're wanting to trot out about coercion or duress. Let's stick to the subject at hand, which is MMO's, okay? When it comes to the decision of whether or not to play a game, you're not facing a lack of choice. There are dozens, if not hundreds, of MMO's out there. The problem is that you're living in a pie-in-the-sky, unrealistic world with expectations for a game that no company could ever hope to meet, no matter how much money and time they spent in development. You want a perfect fantasy world that will magically work exactly the way you want it to, and which will fall down at your feet and worship you as the hero you want to be. That game will never exist, and you will always be disappointed if you stick to such naive expectations. All MMO's have flaws, and they will all fall short in some form or fashion from whatever over-hyped expectations that people have. The key is just to find a game that you find fun and entertaining, and enjoy your time in it while it lasts.
Today, I have several software disks on my shelf; disks that include software boxes and expansions from various genres.
About $350 worth of this software is in MMO games that I literally don't know how to play anymore because my owner's manual no longer referrs to the games I now possess. Some of the games I enjoyed at one time, games that the publishing houses changed, because they and their expesive and utterly useless live teams couldn't leave well enough alone. Other games can still be played, but are so distasteful with their new monetizing schemes that I can't see myself looking into the mirror when partaking in that crap.
Is it a personal problem? Hell yes. Certainly you or the publishers of these games aren't going to give me back my $350 worth of software. The problem is my problem, just like everyone else who has had the things they have come to expect swapped out by these developers and publishers. But don't tell me that I wanted it this way. Don't tell the people who are damn upest with their devs that they wanted it that way. We want to enjoy our software, not be caught up in some crazy financial scheme just to enjoy our software.
It isn't like we can't be pleased, because we wouldn't be here if MMOs didn't please us. We are actually very easy to please, because we aren't asking for anything other than what we got before: a software product with certain features and customer support. We aren't asking developers to worship us, have them bow to our whim, or create the perfect game. All we are asking for is that the publishers stand by their word, restrain themselves from altering the payment scheme, restrain themselves from making wholesale changes that makes the rulebook obsolete, and basically everything else that a customer should expect from consumer software.
This is not "a pie-in-the-sky, unrealistic world with expectations for a game that no company could ever hope to meet." It isn't, because MMO companies have been doing fine without RMT on top of subscription for well over ten years now. What additional expenses do they have now that they didn't have back then that justify these formerly free features? More importantly, how does paying for these features give me or anyone else a better game? Is it because they have to pay for more developers? Frankly, I and many others would rather have less developers when their development talents go toward making our rulebooks obsolete, and our decorative items RMT. Is it for better customer service? Tell me, old timers, is your customer service better now than it was when you started with MMOs?
I look at those disks of EQ2 and SWG. I enjoyed them, but I and anyone else should enjoy them without post-purchase tampering. The problem is that the overpriced live development teams turned what I bought into crap in short order; taking my software and turning it into something I'd never buy had I known what they'd do.
If the game publishers want to make money, they should trim down their staff a lot, because I have no evidence that live teams make these games better more than they make these games worse.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Originally posted by Mrbloodworth "The Future of this Industry is Creatively Ugly: Innovation in Payment Systems and Not Content/Gameplay "
You are compleatly wrong, there is tons of invoation out there, and more comming all the time. However, most players do not pay atention unless ts one of the big 5 devlopment houses. You also seem to be a victom of this trend.
Quoting this because people are ignoring the truth.
All of that sounds like a personal problem, not some mythical "involuntary" choice. BTW, I'm talking about MMO's exclusively here, not whatever nonsense you're wanting to trot out about coercion or duress. Let's stick to the subject at hand, which is MMO's, okay? When it comes to the decision of whether or not to play a game, you're not facing a lack of choice. There are dozens, if not hundreds, of MMO's out there. The problem is that you're living in a pie-in-the-sky, unrealistic world with expectations for a game that no company could ever hope to meet, no matter how much money and time they spent in development. You want a perfect fantasy world that will magically work exactly the way you want it to, and which will fall down at your feet and worship you as the hero you want to be. That game will never exist, and you will always be disappointed if you stick to such naive expectations. All MMO's have flaws, and they will all fall short in some form or fashion from whatever over-hyped expectations that people have. The key is just to find a game that you find fun and entertaining, and enjoy your time in it while it lasts.
Today, I have several software disks on my shelf; disks that include software boxes and expansions from various genres.
About $350 worth of this software is in MMO games that I literally don't know how to play anymore because my owner's manual no longer referrs to the games I now possess. Some of the games I enjoyed at one time, games that the publishing houses changed, because they and their expesive and utterly useless live teams couldn't leave well enough alone. Other games can still be played, but are so distasteful with their new monetizing schemes that I can't see myself looking into the mirror when partaking in that crap.
Is it a personal problem? Hell yes. Certainly you or the publishers of these games aren't going to give me back my $350 worth of software. The problem is my problem, just like everyone else who has had the things they have come to expect swapped out by these developers and publishers. But don't tell me that I wanted it this way. Don't tell the people who are damn upest with their devs that they wanted it that way. We want to enjoy our software, not be caught up in some crazy financial scheme just to enjoy our software.
It isn't like we can't be pleased, because we wouldn't be here if MMOs didn't please us. We are actually very easy to please, because we aren't asking for anything other than what we got before: a software product with certain features and customer support. We aren't asking developers to worship us, have them bow to our whim, or create the perfect game. All we are asking for is that the publishers stand by their word, restrain themselves from altering the payment scheme, restrain themselves from making wholesale changes that makes the rulebook obsolete, and basically everything else that a customer should expect from consumer software.
This is not "a pie-in-the-sky, unrealistic world with expectations for a game that no company could ever hope to meet." It isn't, because MMO companies have been doing fine without RMT on top of subscription for well over ten years now. What additional expenses do they have now that they didn't have back then that justify these formerly free features? More importantly, how does paying for these features give me or anyone else a better game? Is it because they have to pay for more developers? Frankly, I and many others would rather have less developers when their development talents go toward making our rulebooks obsolete, and our decorative items RMT. Is it for better customer service? Tell me, old timers, is your customer service better now than it was when you started with MMOs?
I look at those disks of EQ2 and SWG. I enjoyed them, but I and anyone else should enjoy them without post-purchase tampering. The problem is that the overpriced live development teams turned what I bought into crap in short order; taking my software and turning it into something I'd never buy had I known what they'd do.
If the game publishers want to make money, they should trim down their staff a lot, because I have no evidence that live teams make these games better more than they make these games worse.
I enjoy your post as always. Thanks for the intelligent read. : ) I would also like to add to this conversation that I am not totally against RMT games but I want to know ahead of time that is what they are. Also the way SOE is implementing RMT gaming on top of an already subscription fee model is just plain greedy.
I have never played an RMT but that doesn't mean I wouldn't give it a try but I will not pay a subscription fee to play a RMT game.
Today, I have several software disks on my shelf; disks that include software boxes and expansions from various genres. About $350 worth of this software is in MMO games that I literally don't know how to play anymore because my owner's manual no longer referrs to the games I now possess. Some of the games I enjoyed at one time, games that the publishing houses changed, because they and their expesive and utterly useless live teams couldn't leave well enough alone. Other games can still be played, but are so distasteful with their new monetizing schemes that I can't see myself looking into the mirror when partaking in that crap. Is it a personal problem? Hell yes. Certainly you or the publishers of these games aren't going to give me back my $350 worth of software. You think you're the only one that applies to? Get in line. I've got plenty of game discs, collector's editions, strategy guides, and game manuals in my computer room spanning almost ten years, going all the way back to my original EverQuest box and Prima guide.
I've also got collectible toys and other swag for games I haven't played in years and which are just taking up space in my house. You are not a special and unique snowflake for having that $350 worth of software that you don't know how to play anymore. Anyone who is a PC gamer has a similar story to tell, whether it's about FPS or RTS games, MMO's, or RPG's.
Hell, I've still got old computer parts lying around because I lied to myself when upgrading, reasoning that I'd build a spare computer with the parts I had. Did I ever do that? No. Those parts, which cost me hundreds, if not thousands of dollars over the years, are heading to the trash dumpster tomorrow, since I've finally had enough of my gamer pack rat syndrome and am chucking them all out. It isn't like we can't be pleased, because we wouldn't be here if MMOs didn't please us. We are actually very easy to please, because we aren't asking for anything other than what we got before: a software product with certain features and customer support. We aren't asking developers to worship us, have them bow to our whim, or create the perfect game. Sure you are. There is always the expectation around here and elsewhere that whatever new game is going to be the revolutionary be-all, end-all of MMO's. It will destroy WoW with its player freedom and features, and whatever mechanics the rabid fanboys are raving about. These days, it's Darkfall. Six months ago, it was Age of Conan. A year and a half ago, it was Vanguard. Change the name of the game, but the story is still the same.
Every time a new MMO comes around, people who are still living in the past or who are desperate to re-live their rose-colored glory days from EQ, UO, or pre-CU SWG, where they were the most L33t, hardcore player EVAR and they earned all their gear by camping and grinding for weeks, don'tcha know, start building up impossible hype for that new game. It will restore balance to the Force, or bring back the feel of classic EQ, and it will also cure their male pattern baldness and obesity, making them the young, hot stud they thought they were when EQ first launched. Same shit, different game.
All we are asking for is that the publishers stand by their word, restrain themselves from altering the payment scheme, restrain themselves from making wholesale changes that makes the rulebook obsolete, and basically everything else that a customer should expect from consumer software. So developers should never update or innovate when it comes to their games, because it could alter the original rulebook. And they should never try to move away from one business model to another, even if they have solid proof that their newer model works because their own players have proven it to them by buying into it? Tell me, old timers, is your customer service better now than it was when you started with MMOs? Frankly, yes. I can call Mythic or Turbine on the phone, talk to someone and straighten any snags or questions out in just a few minutes. It's a far cry from when I tried to deal with SOE for anything back when I played EQ. Hell, even Blizzard was great. A simple 10 minute phone call solved my issue and got everything squared. I look at those disks of EQ2 and SWG. I enjoyed them, but I and anyone else should enjoy them without post-purchase tampering. The problem is that the overpriced live development teams turned what I bought into crap in short order; taking my software and turning it into something I'd never buy had I known what they'd do. If the game publishers want to make money, they should trim down their staff a lot, because I have no evidence that live teams make these games better more than they make these games worse. So if I'm reading this right, you want no expansion packs, no post-release updates or added content, and nothing that "tampers" with the original game at all.
The solution to this problem is simple. If the games are really so horrible, stop playing. Developers/companies that only notice money will notice their wallets getting thin.
Comments
He is not talking about EQ or EQ2 specifically in your quotes.
I quoted you specifically in my preceding post that they denied and said witout any doubt that they would not add RMT to EQ or EQ2. Only a fool would not agree.
It's pretty arrogant of you to tell me I'm wrong when I just provided you evidence and I actually played EQ at the time and I actually was there on the forum when they wrote said quotes.
If you would like to walk around pretending to be correct when you are not, be my guest.
Incorrect, not semantics, that's called an Argumentum Ad Hominem.
What? No it isn't. I suggest you re-learn what an ad hominem attack is:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
Hon, I'm done arguing with you. It's obvious when you are backed into a corner that you refuse to admit you were wrong.
Have a fun day.
Bwahahaha! Too funny.
I'm not the one who can't see the obvious writing on the wall. Sony has been moving in this direction for years. They have said so publicly. Just because you deluded yourself into thinking that EQ and EQ2 were somehow immune from that isn't my problem.
Your argument for innovation, creativity et al would be bolstered a hell of a lot if you didn't keep referring to the fourth sequel of a massively successful single player franchise. And an evolutionary, bug-infested sequel at that. Screaming out "We want INNOVATION!" while holding the fourth retread of an idea (or eighth, if you want to go back to the 2D versions of GTA and the non-numbered sequels) really shows the shallowness of your entire rant.
EQ / EQ2 have only had marginal MMO relevance for years. RMT / microtrans models have been shown to be very successful payment models for a variety of MMOs. It works because players don't have to pay if they don't want to. How's that? If you don't want any of the items, you don't have to pay to play. Compare that to a monthly sub, where you have to pay regardless of your opinion at the latest content if you want to keep playing.
As has been pointed out - and which you've pointedly ignored, preferring to play the matyr - there are plenty of other different titles out there to play. You could go back to where all the "freedom" originally came from and play UO. Perhaps you could try Dreamlords, an MMORTS. Or EvE, which stands out in a class by itself. Or Chronicles of Spellborn or Darkfall, both held up as great white hopes for the future of MMOs. Or a ton of other titles - take a look through the list available here at MMORPG. Try some out.
... but I think you'd rather be up on your soapbox, throwing out buzzwords that you don't even understand.
It is really not worth it, and I am not sure what her agenda is, perhaps to release real-life stress. The concept of a choice being involuntary is beyond her.
And you are exactly right. I have been a consumer of SOE games for, gosh, how many years now? Since the release of EQ 1.
I am blinded-sided by the "electronic wallet" thing and considering cancelling my three accounts.
I don't think that is the same thing. This is a service that has nothing to do with items. This is a service that someone at blizzard will have to do on their side thus a fee is required. It is not the same thing at all, I consider this similar to a server transfer.
I think that is an excellent point, and I somewhat overlooked it.
It is a "service" that has no impaterial, material or slight, on the game. A system, in-game, that was free to recustomize a person's character would be preferrable.
Let's hope, and prayer, however, this is not the beginning of an industry-wide "change" in payment schemes, designed to suck more money out of the MMORPG consumer (MMORPG gamers).
What real life stress? I don't have any. My life is quite good, actually.
Also, my "agenda" is to point out the fact that Sony has been moving in this direction for years, and have said it publicly. Just because you all deluded yourselves into thinking that EQ and EQ2 would be immune from full RMT and microtransactions is not my fault. This has been an obvious change in direction for well over a year and a half now.
And I'm sorry, but when it comes to MMO's, and whether or not to play them, there is no such thing as an involuntary choice, unless you're forcibly banned from a game, or the game shuts down. That's it. Other than that, the choice is entirely up to you.
I do not know if you are limiting the involuntary choice concept as you understand exclusively to MMORPGs or to other areas as well. I am not going to even touch on duress, coercion, necessity, and other ways in which a choice, though a choice, is an involuntary one.
Have resulted in many (many) of us involuntarily giving-up on MMORPGs; we want to play. We have the will, desire, and money (and computer(s)) but not the game.
It is an involuntary choice.
World - Not a Game
MMORPGs are fascinating, as a concept, because the possibilities could be limitless in terms of customization, exploration, features, activities, content options, and gameplay abilities. Most people, and those who have worked (or will work) in management positions probably do understand that people like structure, clear rules, and direction. You can have autonomy, and structure, in MMORPGs because ordinary rules of life do not apply.
Some of us, known as "immersion gamers," want to return to the concept of the MMORPG as a work of art, inspired by literature.
We are shocked by the creative direction of MMORPGs, and the payment scheme methods are but another wrongful move in this industry.
All of that sounds like a personal problem, not some mythical "involuntary" choice. BTW, I'm talking about MMO's exclusively here, not whatever nonsense you're wanting to trot out about coercion or duress. Let's stick to the subject at hand, which is MMO's, okay?
When it comes to the decision of whether or not to play a game, you're not facing a lack of choice. There are dozens, if not hundreds, of MMO's out there. The problem is that you're living in a pie-in-the-sky, unrealistic world with expectations for a game that no company could ever hope to meet, no matter how much money and time they spent in development.
You want a perfect fantasy world that will magically work exactly the way you want it to, and which will fall down at your feet and worship you as the hero you want to be. That game will never exist, and you will always be disappointed if you stick to such naive expectations. All MMO's have flaws, and they will all fall short in some form or fashion from whatever over-hyped expectations that people have. The key is just to find a game that you find fun and entertaining, and enjoy your time in it while it lasts.
It may be personal to me in the sense that is it personal to the hundreds of thousands out there who want a more sophisticated game, though accessible, with more depth and even slightly more challenge.
People have played WoW. People do not want a WoW-clone. I speak with many people daily through AIM, many of whom are not playing a game or tell me they are temporarily playing WoW.
The market for "immersion gamers" is vast and has untapped potential.
I do not know if you are limiting the involuntary choice concept as you understand exclusively to MMORPGs or to other areas as well. I am not going to even touch on duress, coercion, necessity, and other ways in which a choice, though a choice, is an involuntary one.
Have resulted in many (many) of us involuntarily giving-up on MMORPGs; we want to play. We have the will, desire, and money (and computer(s)) but not the game.
It is an involuntary choice.
World - Not a Game
MMORPGs are fascinating, as a concept, because the possibilities could be limitless in terms of customization, exploration, features, activities, content options, and gameplay abilities. Most people, and those who have worked (or will work) in management positions probably do understand that people like structure, clear rules, and direction. You can have autonomy, and structure, in MMORPGs because ordinary rules of life do not apply.
Some of us, known as "immersion gamers," want to return to the concept of the MMORPG as a work of art, inspired by literature.
We are shocked by the creative direction of MMORPGs, and the payment scheme methods are but another wrongful move in this industry.
You have one problem. You are bored with MMORPG's as they exist.
I don't have any problem. I am living in the world of Warcraft. It's a world alright. Coming home at the bar in Dalaran after a good night's adventures with friends and friendly chat.
And the good news is, each day I get phones and talk with people in RL about those adventures we had last night. And it's a continuing story for 3 years and more.
The problem is : it is all out there, but you have to have fun and be IN it.
You can't be "in the zone" anymore. That's a pity for you, not for me. I am not interested in your changing moods to piss on present day MMORPG's.
Why do I follow MMORPG.COM? , because I still want to be in touch with the "latest" developments. And I am pretty pleased that I am still in the game with the very latest developments (phasing, vehicles, gigantic fortresses, dragons to fly, believable fantasy). All there and very cheap compared to other hobbies.
I am in there and choosing what I want to do, living and playing there with RL and Cyber friends. Today I am gonna do a reputation work. I am going to get revered with a faction. Correction it will take me two days, because the quests are limited per day. After that I'll take my Netherwing Dragon and fly to Dalaran and I chat with the friends at the bar.
I have the complete books on Azeroth, comics series, some CCards - even with in game items - the philharmonic music. So the lore is there and I am in it (for 2 hours a day, sometimes more). Just like I have the complete TT books on that great TT WH miniatures game and those legendary books of Middle Earth. But as an MMORPG I am living in the World of Warcraft.
Am I paying for these adventures? Yep 12 Euro a month. Would I pay for in game items? No. Do I worry about this. No because I don't care. Am I caring for those other 11 million guys and girls and how they feel? Not if they are dwelling and complaining in my world. They don't exist in Areroth either. Curiously they don't exist there at my stole in the bar.
Sorry if you don't see the obvious anymore and want to go back to times where 10 pixels and a broken modem line were much better times.
Think about it and look into a mirror.
I do not know if it is the way I write or something altogether different. I have consistently, if not constantly, talked about, in this forum and topic, the need to "innovate" which is harnessing technology and developing new tools.
Many of us, I suspect in the hundreds of thousands at least, want a more sophisticated game than WoW, which is not a WoW-clone.
If you think about it, at least for me, it is not that complicated.
It might be how I write, which is why I sometimes center:
I talk about innovation, new tools, player empowerment, evolving worlds.
You say "10 pixels" and that scares me; it scares me because it is so opposite what I say. I am scared because (1) you cannot understand what I write or (2) my writing is so bad you cannot understand it.
I do not know if it is the way I write or something altogether different. I have consistently, if not constantly, talked about, in this forum and topic, the need to "innovate" which is harnessing technology and developing new tools.
Many of us, I suspect in the hundreds of thousands at least, want a more sophisticated game than WoW, which is not a WoW-clone.
If you think about it, at least for me, it is not that complicated.
It might be how I write, which is why I sometimes center:
I talk about innovation, new tools, player empowerment, evolving worlds.
You say "10 pixels" and that scares me; it scares me because it is so opposite what I say. I am scared because (1) you cannot understand what I write or (2) my writing is so bad you cannot understand it.
The problem is just that.
Reread what I wrote above.
You are no longer " in the zone", you're out of it. Your mood has gone to play . I am confident when I see a world change to my avatar in WOW. You don't accept that fact and the phasing and "sophistication" isn't there anymore.
Np. But you expect the moon, while millions of people are having fun on earth. Come back to earth.
An experience works as long as the indiviual wants it to work. That applies to all formats of entertainment. Be it paper wargames, miniatures, books, Donky Kong 64.
You are that miniatures wargamer who suddenly realizes he's playing with painted tin and is no longer fighting a battle, while the rest of his comrades are commanding the Napoleonic guard as if they were IN it and be the General.
Only 1 problem.
The problem is you are no longer in the zone of present day MMORPG's. No matter what they invent.
I have the heart and stomach of an immersion gamer, and my mood and appetite for gaming is as strong as it ever has been.
My "problem" with the MMORPG titles presently on the market is not only that in the area of content, gameplay, immersion, and so forth but with this payment scheme direction.
If we are going to talk about WoW, however, I will concede that the game has many merits to it. I ran a guild in WoW that was very successful but I became bored, quickly, with raiding. I would even say that WoW did not have the depth of Everquest 1. I dislike pigeonholing my character in some kind of "specialization," and it is not even voluntary to choose a specialization. You must select one of three. Graphic-wise the game was unappealing as well. The humor was, overall. childish.
Out-of-touch? I will tell you what, Leeroy Jenkins things seem utterly absurd to me. I do not say that with a frown, or smile, but just kind of like... wiping a raid and shouting leeeroy is the humor + chuck norris jokes? In that case, I am so out-of-touch it is not funny!
Edit: Everyone is basically the same in WoW. The path is linear. The graphics are not appealing. The world feels ... like a game too much. Yes. I know. A game. Combat is repetitive. Most things are predictable, and raid targets are very routine.
Give me a world. Give me customization. Give me fun.
I love freedom. I love options. I like opportunities. I am not a linear kind of gamer. And I actually dislike Chuck Norris jokes. I can almost not stand them. They should be banned. And uttering Leeroy Jenkins should result in a perma-ban.
I want sci-fi Dwarf Fortress rendered in beautifull 3D with all the physics of this generation, havok, euphoria and digital molecular matter.
Untill that, I'll be in Dalaran.
Your argument for innovation, creativity et al would be bolstered a hell of a lot if you didn't keep referring to the fourth sequel of a massively successful single player franchise. And an evolutionary, bug-infested sequel at that. Screaming out "We want INNOVATION!" while holding the fourth retread of an idea (or eighth, if you want to go back to the 2D versions of GTA and the non-numbered sequels) really shows the shallowness of your entire rant.
EQ / EQ2 have only had marginal MMO relevance for years. RMT / microtrans models have been shown to be very successful payment models for a variety of MMOs. It works because players don't have to pay if they don't want to. How's that? If you don't want any of the items, you don't have to pay to play. Compare that to a monthly sub, where you have to pay regardless of your opinion at the latest content if you want to keep playing.
As has been pointed out - and which you've pointedly ignored, preferring to play the matyr - there are plenty of other different titles out there to play. You could go back to where all the "freedom" originally came from and play UO. Perhaps you could try Dreamlords, an MMORTS. Or EvE, which stands out in a class by itself. Or Chronicles of Spellborn or Darkfall, both held up as great white hopes for the future of MMOs. Or a ton of other titles - take a look through the list available here at MMORPG. Try some out.
... but I think you'd rather be up on your soapbox, throwing out buzzwords that you don't even understand.
Funny thing is, unsub, UO has this kind of thing allready.
Also, thoes that keep calling this RMT, its not.
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
That's the same with me.
My problem with MMOs is the insistent need to group and join guilds to even get the most out of the game. I just want to play without the ever increaing ingame time commitments (which guilds force on players); the soap operas; the dramas; the "IpwnU, [type in choice cuss word]" attitudes; and the MEMEMEness of players who just want to power level.
A lot of people leave MMOs without even saying way, they move on. But there has to be 1001 reasons other than what is yelled about on these types of forums why they leave.
The sum of the whole is that MMOs can't cater just to specific groups, it has to unite them under one umbrella that's tolerable to all the different play styles. Be it a crafter who only wants to craft (and it being a REAL profession, not secondary to adventuring); the PvPer who wants to kill anything sentient; to the Indiana Jones types who want to explore and find treasure (not necessary kill everything to get it); and your raiders who want to kill and break stuff for some braggable gear.
The ultimate MMO will be like a real city, with real people playing virtual careers. Barbers; bakers; butchers; farmers; tailors; carpenters; armorers; street sweepers; garbageman; jailers; cops; firemen; politicians; thieves; mercenaries; militiamen; priests; mages; sages...the list goes on. Each with their own rites and requirements (yes, even the street sweeper and garbageman). Coding it would be a nightmare, but giving a Wall Street banker the ability to play a priest he couldn't be in real life, is a powerful draw to get more than just hardcore gamers into MMOs.
I don't really care so much about artwork or visuals (as the limitations of pixels will remain for many years), but the ability to play a role that's something different and rewarding. Not running around killing mobs for "lewtz". It gets old and tiring for the nth time under various game names.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Today, I have several software disks on my shelf; disks that include software boxes and expansions from various genres.
About $350 worth of this software is in MMO games that I literally don't know how to play anymore because my owner's manual no longer referrs to the games I now possess. Some of the games I enjoyed at one time, games that the publishing houses changed, because they and their expesive and utterly useless live teams couldn't leave well enough alone. Other games can still be played, but are so distasteful with their new monetizing schemes that I can't see myself looking into the mirror when partaking in that crap.
Is it a personal problem? Hell yes. Certainly you or the publishers of these games aren't going to give me back my $350 worth of software. The problem is my problem, just like everyone else who has had the things they have come to expect swapped out by these developers and publishers. But don't tell me that I wanted it this way. Don't tell the people who are damn upest with their devs that they wanted it that way. We want to enjoy our software, not be caught up in some crazy financial scheme just to enjoy our software.
It isn't like we can't be pleased, because we wouldn't be here if MMOs didn't please us. We are actually very easy to please, because we aren't asking for anything other than what we got before: a software product with certain features and customer support. We aren't asking developers to worship us, have them bow to our whim, or create the perfect game. All we are asking for is that the publishers stand by their word, restrain themselves from altering the payment scheme, restrain themselves from making wholesale changes that makes the rulebook obsolete, and basically everything else that a customer should expect from consumer software.
This is not "a pie-in-the-sky, unrealistic world with expectations for a game that no company could ever hope to meet." It isn't, because MMO companies have been doing fine without RMT on top of subscription for well over ten years now. What additional expenses do they have now that they didn't have back then that justify these formerly free features? More importantly, how does paying for these features give me or anyone else a better game? Is it because they have to pay for more developers? Frankly, I and many others would rather have less developers when their development talents go toward making our rulebooks obsolete, and our decorative items RMT. Is it for better customer service? Tell me, old timers, is your customer service better now than it was when you started with MMOs?
I look at those disks of EQ2 and SWG. I enjoyed them, but I and anyone else should enjoy them without post-purchase tampering. The problem is that the overpriced live development teams turned what I bought into crap in short order; taking my software and turning it into something I'd never buy had I known what they'd do.
If the game publishers want to make money, they should trim down their staff a lot, because I have no evidence that live teams make these games better more than they make these games worse.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Quoting this because people are ignoring the truth.
Today, I have several software disks on my shelf; disks that include software boxes and expansions from various genres.
About $350 worth of this software is in MMO games that I literally don't know how to play anymore because my owner's manual no longer referrs to the games I now possess. Some of the games I enjoyed at one time, games that the publishing houses changed, because they and their expesive and utterly useless live teams couldn't leave well enough alone. Other games can still be played, but are so distasteful with their new monetizing schemes that I can't see myself looking into the mirror when partaking in that crap.
Is it a personal problem? Hell yes. Certainly you or the publishers of these games aren't going to give me back my $350 worth of software. The problem is my problem, just like everyone else who has had the things they have come to expect swapped out by these developers and publishers. But don't tell me that I wanted it this way. Don't tell the people who are damn upest with their devs that they wanted it that way. We want to enjoy our software, not be caught up in some crazy financial scheme just to enjoy our software.
It isn't like we can't be pleased, because we wouldn't be here if MMOs didn't please us. We are actually very easy to please, because we aren't asking for anything other than what we got before: a software product with certain features and customer support. We aren't asking developers to worship us, have them bow to our whim, or create the perfect game. All we are asking for is that the publishers stand by their word, restrain themselves from altering the payment scheme, restrain themselves from making wholesale changes that makes the rulebook obsolete, and basically everything else that a customer should expect from consumer software.
This is not "a pie-in-the-sky, unrealistic world with expectations for a game that no company could ever hope to meet." It isn't, because MMO companies have been doing fine without RMT on top of subscription for well over ten years now. What additional expenses do they have now that they didn't have back then that justify these formerly free features? More importantly, how does paying for these features give me or anyone else a better game? Is it because they have to pay for more developers? Frankly, I and many others would rather have less developers when their development talents go toward making our rulebooks obsolete, and our decorative items RMT. Is it for better customer service? Tell me, old timers, is your customer service better now than it was when you started with MMOs?
I look at those disks of EQ2 and SWG. I enjoyed them, but I and anyone else should enjoy them without post-purchase tampering. The problem is that the overpriced live development teams turned what I bought into crap in short order; taking my software and turning it into something I'd never buy had I known what they'd do.
If the game publishers want to make money, they should trim down their staff a lot, because I have no evidence that live teams make these games better more than they make these games worse.
I enjoy your post as always. Thanks for the intelligent read. : ) I would also like to add to this conversation that I am not totally against RMT games but I want to know ahead of time that is what they are. Also the way SOE is implementing RMT gaming on top of an already subscription fee model is just plain greedy.
I have never played an RMT but that doesn't mean I wouldn't give it a try but I will not pay a subscription fee to play a RMT game.
The solution to this problem is simple. If the games are really so horrible, stop playing. Developers/companies that only notice money will notice their wallets getting thin.