Originally posted by Beatnik59 So if I'm reading this right, you want no expansion packs, no post-release updates or added content, and nothing that "tampers" with the original game at all.
How is that innovation again?
Don't you get it? We don't want "innovation" that turns our games into something we didn't originally buy into. We had games that worked, that were apparently rather popular, and that we enjoyed just the way they were. We don't mind expansion packs; we have that in single player and non-MMO multiplayer too. But for me at least, a "post-release update" means one of two things: either the game wasn't finished as advertised, or the developers want to change our software into something we never bought.
Some think that "never leaving production" is a virtue in MMOs. Actually though, it's this genre's biggest failing, because nobody ever know what they are going to get on any given day. All I want is certainty, and for me at least, certainty is more important than innovation. Content to me (and many others) is something I don't need as much as a stable software product that doesn't change at the whim of some marketeer. Because I can create my own content if the platform is stable. What I can't do is create the stable platform.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I already moved back to single player RPGs, i have no faith in future MMOs, even great companies like Bioware have me doubting they can do it on a world scale, despite mass effect and KOTOR.
That's the same with me.
My problem with MMOs is the insistent need to group and join guilds to even get the most out of the game. I just want to play without the ever increaing ingame time commitments (which guilds force on players); the soap operas; the dramas; the "IpwnU, [type in choice cuss word]" attitudes; and the MEMEMEness of players who just want to power level.
A lot of people leave MMOs without even saying way, they move on. But there has to be 1001 reasons other than what is yelled about on these types of forums why they leave.
The sum of the whole is that MMOs can't cater just to specific groups, it has to unite them under one umbrella that's tolerable to all the different play styles. Be it a crafter who only wants to craft (and it being a REAL profession, not secondary to adventuring); the PvPer who wants to kill anything sentient; to the Indiana Jones types who want to explore and find treasure (not necessary kill everything to get it); and your raiders who want to kill and break stuff for some braggable gear.
The ultimate MMO will be like a real city, with real people playing virtual careers. Barbers; bakers; butchers; farmers; tailors; carpenters; armorers; street sweepers; garbageman; jailers; cops; firemen; politicians; thieves; mercenaries; militiamen; priests; mages; sages...the list goes on. Each with their own rites and requirements (yes, even the street sweeper and garbageman). Coding it would be a nightmare, but giving a Wall Street banker the ability to play a priest he couldn't be in real life, is a powerful draw to get more than just hardcore gamers into MMOs.
I don't really care so much about artwork or visuals (as the limitations of pixels will remain for many years), but the ability to play a role that's something different and rewarding. Not running around killing mobs for "lewtz". It gets old and tiring for the nth time under various game names.
What you area really asking for is an MMO community with more mature gamers who don't say things like "I pwn U" and "lolz".
Don't you get it? We don't want "innovation" that turns our games into something we didn't originally buy into. We had games that worked, that were apparently rather popular, and that we enjoyed just the way they were. If nothing changes in the game, it's not innovation. If EQ had never changed at all from the original game until now it would be stagnant and dead, even more so than it already is. Time brings new technology that developers may not have had when they first coded a game, and good devs take advantage of that new technology in ways that fit their games. If that new technology causes a previous game mechanic to change, so be it. That's life. Change is inevitable.
Also, no matter how well programmed and coded a game is, once players come in, the games have to change by necessity, because maybe those players are doing things you never thought of, or that you never intended for them to do. Even console and single-player games aren't immune from this. For proof, just look at Valve having to put in emergency code for Left 4 Dead to stop the hacks that people had stumbled on.
If you want an MMO that never changes and that always stays the way you like it, the choice is clear-- don't buy any expansion packs, and don't go into any new zones or any new content that gets added to the world after release, since none of that is what you originally bought into. We don't mind expansion packs; we have that in single player and non-MMO multiplayer too. But for me at least, a "post-release update" means one of two things: either the game wasn't finished as advertised, or the developers want to change our software into something we never bought. So basically you only want developers to update and/or expand their games if they follow your rules, and not whatever they feel is in the best interest of their game. I get it now. Some think that "never leaving production" is a virtue in MMOs. Actually though, it's this genre's biggest failing, because nobody ever know what they are going to get on any given day. All I want is certainty, and for me at least, certainty is more important than innovation. Content to me (and many others) is something I don't need as much as a stable software product that doesn't change at the whim of some marketeer. Because I can create my own content if the platform is stable. What I can't do is create the stable platform. Certainty is the antithesis of what makes an MMO an MMO.
These are persistent games and permanent worlds, and just like the real world, things grow and change over time. What worked in 1999 when EQ launched would never work now in 2008. Games have changed too much since then. Players have changed too much. So has technology. As long as all of those things remain fluid and changing, the same holds true for MMO's.
Originally posted by Lidane That was a year and a half ago. Throw in the obvious financial successes of the Station Exchange servers in EQ
IIRC, the Exchange servers aren't doing that well, much like the PvP servers (when PvPers come to PvE servers and attempt to bribe players with plat in chat to come over, it's desperate!). Majority of the population is on the PvE servers, and they even protested the LoN introduction.
They still protest it, especially the MOTD LoN spam (and it IS annoying, as that alarm needs to be reserved not for advertizements but crucial announcements -- like server shutdowns).
Originally posted by UNATCOII IIRC, the Exchange servers aren't doing that well, much like the PvP servers (when PvPers come to PvE servers and attempt to bribe players with plat in chat to come over, it's desperate!). Majority of the population is on the PvE servers, and they even protested the LoN introduction.
They've done well enough that SOE has kept them online for over three years. In fact, during the first 30 days, SOE saw over $180,000 in sales on the Station Exchange. That was back in August 2005:
There's no telling how much they've made since, but if it stayed anywhere near constant to that first 30 days, it would be in the millions by now. And even if SOE only takes 10% off the top, that's still quite a bit of cash that has been made via RMT. They're not about to ignore that level of success and obviously want to try and expand that model.
They still protest it, especially the MOTD LoN spam (and it IS annoying, as that alarm needs to be reserved not for advertizements but crucial announcements -- like server shutdowns).
I'd protest endless spam in a game, but as long as LoN and the Station Exchange servers are making that kind of cash for Sony, they're going to stay no matter how many folks protest it on the forums.
Originally posted by UNATCOII IIRC, the Exchange servers aren't doing that well, much like the PvP servers (when PvPers come to PvE servers and attempt to bribe players with plat in chat to come over, it's desperate!). Majority of the population is on the PvE servers, and they even protested the LoN introduction.
They've done well enough that SOE has kept them online for over three years. In fact, during the first 30 days, SOE saw over $180,000 in sales on the Station Exchange. That was back in August 2005:
There's no telling how much they've made since, but if it stayed anywhere near constant to that first 30 days, it would be in the millions by now. And even if SOE only takes 10% off the top, that's still quite a bit of cash that has been made via RMT. They're not about to ignore that level of success and obviously want to try and expand that model.
They still protest it, especially the MOTD LoN spam (and it IS annoying, as that alarm needs to be reserved not for advertizements but crucial announcements -- like server shutdowns).
I'd protest endless spam in a game, but as long as LoN and the Station Exchange servers are making that kind of cash for Sony, they're going to stay no matter how many folks protest it on the forums.
Only $180,000? Crap, a F2P can make that in a week! On popular F2P games, $250,000 wouldn't be too much just by their sheer number of players and the need to break the mind numbing grinding!
RMT on EQ2 is a waste, not enough players for the return.
Only $180,000? In their first 30 days, back in 2005. Who knows how much they've made since? RMT on EQ2 is a waste, not enough players for the return. It's clearly enough between the Station Exchange servers and LoN that SOE are expanding the model to include Station Cash. That's all that matters.
RMT on EQ2 is a waste, not enough players for the return. It's clearly enough between the Station Exchange servers and LoN that SOE are expanding the model to include Station Cash. That's all that matters.
It's a gamble, that's all SoE did. They kept it quiet until after expansion release of EQ/EQ2 to dampen the blow but many people have left and closed their account, including me.
Are the people buying Station Cash going to make up for the lost accounts? I hardly think so, they made a blunder. They didn't expect the community to turn against them.
When your MMO community turns against you en mass, you can pretty much pack your bags. This has cost them way too many players and a good hit in their reputation as well.
It's a gamble, that's all SoE did. They kept it quiet until after expansion release of EQ/EQ2 to dampen the blow but many people have left and closed their account, including me. And people are well within their rights to do so. That's the point. SOE are allowed to make whatever decisions they feel are right for their games, no matter how stupid they might seem to others, and players have the choice of whether or not to play the games. It really is that simple. Are the people buying Station Cash going to make up for the lost accounts? I hardly think so, they made a blunder. They didn't expect the community to turn against them. You can't be serious. You think they didn't expect blowback, especially after the shitstorm they got for the CU and NGE in SWG? Of course they expected people to get pissed off and quit. It's why they announced it without any publicity. They probably reasoned it was better to just release it without any fanfare and accept whatever blowback they'd get after the fact than annouce it beforehand and drag out the wank and meltdowns on their forums. When your MMO community turns against you en mass, you can pretty much pack your bags. This has cost them way too many players and a good hit in their reputation as well. I thought that would be the case after the SWG debacle, but there are still people playing that game too. I've no doubt that there will be a loss of players for both EQ and EQ2 after this, but there will still be people playing after the exodus over Station Cash.
Don't you get it? We don't want "innovation" that turns our games into something we didn't originally buy into. We had games that worked, that were apparently rather popular, and that we enjoyed just the way they were. If nothing changes in the game, it's not innovation. If EQ had never changed at all from the original game until now it would be stagnant and dead, even more so than it already is. Time brings new technology that developers may not have had when they first coded a game, and good devs take advantage of that new technology in ways that fit their games. If that new technology causes a previous game mechanic to change, so be it. That's life. Change is inevitable.
Also, no matter how well programmed and coded a game is, once players come in, the games have to change by necessity, because maybe those players are doing things you never thought of, or that you never intended for them to do. Even console and single-player games aren't immune from this. For proof, just look at Valve having to put in emergency code for Left 4 Dead to stop the hacks that people had stumbled on.
If you want an MMO that never changes and that always stays the way you like it, the choice is clear-- don't buy any expansion packs, and don't go into any new zones or any new content that gets added to the world after release, since none of that is what you originally bought into. We don't mind expansion packs; we have that in single player and non-MMO multiplayer too. But for me at least, a "post-release update" means one of two things: either the game wasn't finished as advertised, or the developers want to change our software into something we never bought. So basically you only want developers to update and/or expand their games if they follow your rules, and not whatever they feel is in the best interest of their game. I get it now. Some think that "never leaving production" is a virtue in MMOs. Actually though, it's this genre's biggest failing, because nobody ever know what they are going to get on any given day. All I want is certainty, and for me at least, certainty is more important than innovation. Content to me (and many others) is something I don't need as much as a stable software product that doesn't change at the whim of some marketeer. Because I can create my own content if the platform is stable. What I can't do is create the stable platform. Certainty is the antithesis of what makes an MMO an MMO.
These are persistent games and permanent worlds, and just like the real world, things grow and change over time. What worked in 1999 when EQ launched would never work now in 2008. Games have changed too much since then. Players have changed too much. So has technology. As long as all of those things remain fluid and changing, the same holds true for MMO's.
I'm all for new things, just as long as they are reserved for new games.
And adding content through expansions? That's not just my rule, it's the rule the greater computer entertainment industry embraces. And it works. MMOs, however, claim an exclusive prerogative to add, delete, bait and switch, vandalize, and break the software I own. See, once that game package gets into my hands over the counter or over the digital download server, it becomes my game just as long as I don't sell or distribute copies of it. Every other computer entertainment offering understands this. MMOs refuse to acknowledge this...yet.
But I actually agree with you that certainty is the antithesis of what makes an MMO an MMO. But there is an exciting form of uncertainty and a frustrating form of uncertainty. The exciting stuff is all the work of players interacting with players; that's the sort of uncertainty that makes MMOs uniquely appealing.
The frustrating stuff is when these wireheads on the live teams say, "wouldn't this be neat to try?," and end up causing players to forum scrounge looking for patch notes just to figure out what their game mechanics look like today as opposed to yesterday. Changes like that cause friendships to dissolve, people to swear off MMOs for good, parents to cancel theit kid's subscription, and breaks the suspension of disbelief.
Life, believe it or not, is more static than changing. For example, the laws of physics don't change in the real world, but in MMOs they do because the developers always have to tinker with things like damage metrics, skillsets, classes, loot tables, etc. They refuse to act as the custodians of what we enjoy, and act like creators themselves; which means they will almost always fail because post-launch is just not as malleable as pre-launch. You end up pissing off more people than you retain, speeding up the "churn" even more. And those that leave won't be coming back because the MMO as they knew it is no longer available.
How much do I have to pay to get a restrained post-launch development staff that act as custodians like they ought to? $15? $30? $100? I'd much rather pay more for a restrained live team than anything I can get from RMT. Or is there no price for that, since the ego of these devs is more important than money?
The reason MMOs tend to suck today is that the agents of change in the MMO aren't the players who create the variety we like about MMOs. They are the developers who refuse to restrain themselves for the sake of the integrity of their product and the genre.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Before: creators loved games and made money. Now: creators love money and make games.
quoting for emphasis and stealing it for my signature.
The irony, and truth, is that when they return to being creative, and not commercial, they will make more money than ever imagined.
And, they will be utterly shocked, my God! how gamers like customizaton, depth, and immersion. Geez, we thought these idiots would willingly accept our payment schemes *scams.
We want world again. We want literature. Immersion. Customization. True, and genuine, Questing. We have been so dumbed-downed that it is like... no, these payment schemes are NOT acceptable; and we will reject them (see EA's profits, as consumers "turn-away" from EA's titles).
Edit: "Turn-away" from EA is not my language; that is from the Wall Street Journal discussing how consumers reject purchasing EA products, in a gaming bull market. Not my words. People have seen the same "Madden" and "need for speed" and "sim" since ... a decade ago. And acquiring, milking, and then burning is a failed business strategy.
See, once that game package gets into my hands over the counter or over the digital download server, it becomes my game just as long as I don't sell or distribute copies of it. Every other computer entertainment offering understands this. MMOs refuse to acknowledge this...yet.
I'm not sure of the legality of that. But that's another discussion that of course leads to the private server argument.
I think in an mmo's case you are buying into a service and then paying a monthly fee.
And to the person who wrote that
Before: gamemakers love games and made money
After: gamemakers love money and make games
(or something like that)
Are we so sure? Did they really make enough money? I think this is a common misconception among gamers that "before" game makers made enough money to take care of all their needs until big business came riding in their big tacky limosine and took over.
People are people. Gamemakers are no different than any of us. And business is business. It always has been.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Originally posted by Beatnik59 So if I'm reading this right, you want no expansion packs, no post-release updates or added content, and nothing that "tampers" with the original game at all.
How is that innovation again?
Don't you get it? We don't want "innovation" that turns our games into something we didn't originally buy into. We had games that worked, that were apparently rather popular, and that we enjoyed just the way they were. We don't mind expansion packs; we have that in single player and non-MMO multiplayer too. But for me at least, a "post-release update" means one of two things: either the game wasn't finished as advertised, or the developers want to change our software into something we never bought.
Some think that "never leaving production" is a virtue in MMOs. Actually though, it's this genre's biggest failing, because nobody ever know what they are going to get on any given day. All I want is certainty, and for me at least, certainty is more important than innovation. Content to me (and many others) is something I don't need as much as a stable software product that doesn't change at the whim of some marketeer. Because I can create my own content if the platform is stable. What I can't do is create the stable platform.
This is the way I have felt for a long time. I am glad there is someone else out there that feels this way. I have always said you can go back and play your favorite single player rpg hit from the past anytime you want but you can never go back and play the MMORPG hit from the past because it no longer exists.
I do just that go back and play some old great rpgs of the past, and they are just as great today because of what made them a hit in the past. Look at Everquest for example it is pure garbage now in my opinion. Even if you don't agree with that you can agree it isn't the same game we purchased in 1999. That game in 1999 was a hit and it is gone.
The gaming industry is a bull market, but the MMORPG industry is undergoing the process of a dramatically recharacterization in form and payment:
Freedom to Forced; Options to Linear; Sophisticated to Dumbed-Down; World Immersion to No Immersion Monthly Fee to Payment Schemes
We have tolerated a lot, especially the "immersion" gamers among us.
Will we tolerate this kind of thing? For the sake of this industry, I hope not.
Eventually, a small company will capitalize well on the niche market. Until that occurs, I have quit MMO's.
Likewise. All downhill since WoW. Add some microtransactions in there and another big budget linear game, and we have epic fail!. Darkfall is THE last hope for me, and if thats a crapshoot, I'm done.
Originally posted by SignusM Likewise. All downhill since WoW. Add some microtransactions in there and another big budget linear game, and we have epic fail!. Darkfall is THE last hope for me, and if thats a crapshoot, I'm done.
That's because devs are literally making a FPS game and pasting some RPG elements into it.
FPS games work on small maps with direct action and players working on skill, not farming names for "lewtz".
Until publishers/devs understand MMOs aren't FPS games (and MMO players who keep crying for FPS style warring [and PvP]), this trend will continue all the way to it's bitter end.
You guys are acting like they are selling swords and armor. They are not. Its xp increases, cosmetic items and fluff. All on top of the already existing game. This comes down to jealousy and keeping up with the joneses mentality. Somehow, some of you fell slighted because bob bought a potion for 1$ that gave him a 5% XP increase as he gains XP.
For those of you that bring up blizzard, they are ALSO doing this. There is a thread here bitching about it to. Innovation in games, has nothing to do with modernizing to revenue models, such as added value, ala-cart, or micro transactions, that have been proven to work. They are two separate things. And everyone is forgetting that some of those models, save players money, because you can play how you want, and pay how you want, and not pay for things you do not need/want. Who cares if bob gets +5% to XP and has some hot pants that do nothing. This thread is a thinly veiled ruse to promote how "Hardcore" it was back in the day, and how "kids this days" have it easy. As if games are supposed to be anything other than fun and entertainment.
I agree with the part about games being just entertainment, but disagree with almost everything else.
I couldn't give a damn about what is/isn't supposed to be hardcore as I am proud to be a casual gamer. I don't particularly care if other players with more time get to level faster then me, as I play games for fun not as some sort of status symbol.
How can spending $10 every two hours to get a 50% (not 5%) XP bonus possibly be considered a way of saving me money? Using that logic why don't people just pay for level up potions or even better just buy high level characters off the peg? I want to really play the game for myself, not pay extra money to be able to pretend to other players that I have the time to be 'Hardcore'.
In an interview a while back, SOE said that they liked the idea of microtransactions because people might accidentally overspend & not realise until they they got their credit card bill that they had spent five times more than the monthly subscription. If I wanted to waste money that fast I would play one-armed bandits!
Microtransactions & RMT are the same thing. Claiming they aren't is like saying that paying by credit card isn't like spending real money either, but that is exactly how companies like SOE would like us to feel.
There is nothing innovative about turning an MMO into some sort of virtual casino.
Just my opinion though.
If you can't "Have your cake & eat it too", then how can "The proof of the pudding be in the eating"?
Originally posted by Beatnik59 MMOs, however, claim an exclusive prerogative to add, delete, bait and switch, vandalize, and break the software I own. See, once that game package gets into my hands over the counter or over the digital download server, it becomes my game just as long as I don't sell or distribute copies of it. Every other computer entertainment offering understands this. MMOs refuse to acknowledge this...yet.
What you pay for when you buy the game discs for an MMO isn't the game itself. It's the ability to access the company's game servers, and the software to help you do it. That's it. The game is hosted on their servers. You get 30 free days to see if you like the game and the service being provided. After that, you have to subscribe.
That's what makes MMO's fundamentally different from other types of computer games. If I buy a copy of Diablo II or Starcraft, I can play them on my own at home, or I can connect online to play with others on the Battle.net servers. That's not the same as an MMO. Why? Because those games function outside of the Battle.net servers. I don't need to go online in order to play.
The game discs you buy for an MMO might as well be coasters outside of the hosted servers that SOE, Mythic, Turbine, NCSoft, or anyone else provides, since you can't play the games without going on the developer's servers or paying subscription fees. Because of that, they have every right in the world to change their games as they see fit. You don't own the game. THEY do. You're just paying for the right to play their game on their servers.
The game discs you buy for an MMO might as well be coasters outside of the hosted servers that SOE, Mythic, Turbine, NCSoft, or anyone else provides, since you can't play the games without going on the developer's servers or paying subscription fees. Because of that, they have every right in the world to change their games as they see fit. You don't own the game. THEY do. You're just paying for the right to play their game on their servers.
Exactly. And that's why MMOs will fail. Because although they have the power to upset my game, I would argue that they don't have the right. I should be able to choose what featuresI want, and not the features they force me to accept.
This new medium was supposed to be about freedom, and the cooperative effort of developers who play, and players who shape development, like the MUDs used to do. Today though, it's about the publishers doing whatever they feel like and the only voice we have is "take it or leave it."
See, I understand what you are saying. I just no longer accept it. It took me awhile, but I eventually came to the conclusion that the whole trend of development lately isn't to maintain the vision of the original designers, but to be constantly designing whether the game is better for it, or not. After all, if the game worked, there would be no need for constant redesigning of the game. So these folks find things to "correct" even if nothing need be corrected.
The trust has been broken between developers and players. We no longer see them as "gods" anymore, but men, and bad, selfish, and clueless men at that. That's why I like games like Spore and Oblivion, because they give me the freedom to take charge of my own gaming experience, like MMOs used to do, rather than have a gaming experience be forced upon me at an accountant's whim.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Comments
Lidane, stop beeing such an annoying conformist!!!
Don't you get it? We don't want "innovation" that turns our games into something we didn't originally buy into. We had games that worked, that were apparently rather popular, and that we enjoyed just the way they were. We don't mind expansion packs; we have that in single player and non-MMO multiplayer too. But for me at least, a "post-release update" means one of two things: either the game wasn't finished as advertised, or the developers want to change our software into something we never bought.
Some think that "never leaving production" is a virtue in MMOs. Actually though, it's this genre's biggest failing, because nobody ever know what they are going to get on any given day. All I want is certainty, and for me at least, certainty is more important than innovation. Content to me (and many others) is something I don't need as much as a stable software product that doesn't change at the whim of some marketeer. Because I can create my own content if the platform is stable. What I can't do is create the stable platform.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
quoting for emphasis and stealing it for my signature.
-------------------------------------
Before: developers loved games and made money.
Now: developers love money and make games.
That's the same with me.
My problem with MMOs is the insistent need to group and join guilds to even get the most out of the game. I just want to play without the ever increaing ingame time commitments (which guilds force on players); the soap operas; the dramas; the "IpwnU, [type in choice cuss word]" attitudes; and the MEMEMEness of players who just want to power level.
A lot of people leave MMOs without even saying way, they move on. But there has to be 1001 reasons other than what is yelled about on these types of forums why they leave.
The sum of the whole is that MMOs can't cater just to specific groups, it has to unite them under one umbrella that's tolerable to all the different play styles. Be it a crafter who only wants to craft (and it being a REAL profession, not secondary to adventuring); the PvPer who wants to kill anything sentient; to the Indiana Jones types who want to explore and find treasure (not necessary kill everything to get it); and your raiders who want to kill and break stuff for some braggable gear.
The ultimate MMO will be like a real city, with real people playing virtual careers. Barbers; bakers; butchers; farmers; tailors; carpenters; armorers; street sweepers; garbageman; jailers; cops; firemen; politicians; thieves; mercenaries; militiamen; priests; mages; sages...the list goes on. Each with their own rites and requirements (yes, even the street sweeper and garbageman). Coding it would be a nightmare, but giving a Wall Street banker the ability to play a priest he couldn't be in real life, is a powerful draw to get more than just hardcore gamers into MMOs.
I don't really care so much about artwork or visuals (as the limitations of pixels will remain for many years), but the ability to play a role that's something different and rewarding. Not running around killing mobs for "lewtz". It gets old and tiring for the nth time under various game names.
What you area really asking for is an MMO community with more mature gamers who don't say things like "I pwn U" and "lolz".
It's not conformity. It's facing reality and admitting that all developers have limits, and all MMO's have limits.
IIRC, the Exchange servers aren't doing that well, much like the PvP servers (when PvPers come to PvE servers and attempt to bribe players with plat in chat to come over, it's desperate!). Majority of the population is on the PvE servers, and they even protested the LoN introduction.
They still protest it, especially the MOTD LoN spam (and it IS annoying, as that alarm needs to be reserved not for advertizements but crucial announcements -- like server shutdowns).
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
They've done well enough that SOE has kept them online for over three years. In fact, during the first 30 days, SOE saw over $180,000 in sales on the Station Exchange. That was back in August 2005:
international.com.com/Sony+scores+with+Station+Exchange/2100-1043_3-5842791.html
There's no telling how much they've made since, but if it stayed anywhere near constant to that first 30 days, it would be in the millions by now. And even if SOE only takes 10% off the top, that's still quite a bit of cash that has been made via RMT. They're not about to ignore that level of success and obviously want to try and expand that model.
They still protest it, especially the MOTD LoN spam (and it IS annoying, as that alarm needs to be reserved not for advertizements but crucial announcements -- like server shutdowns).
I'd protest endless spam in a game, but as long as LoN and the Station Exchange servers are making that kind of cash for Sony, they're going to stay no matter how many folks protest it on the forums.
They've done well enough that SOE has kept them online for over three years. In fact, during the first 30 days, SOE saw over $180,000 in sales on the Station Exchange. That was back in August 2005:
international.com.com/Sony+scores+with+Station+Exchange/2100-1043_3-5842791.html
There's no telling how much they've made since, but if it stayed anywhere near constant to that first 30 days, it would be in the millions by now. And even if SOE only takes 10% off the top, that's still quite a bit of cash that has been made via RMT. They're not about to ignore that level of success and obviously want to try and expand that model.
They still protest it, especially the MOTD LoN spam (and it IS annoying, as that alarm needs to be reserved not for advertizements but crucial announcements -- like server shutdowns).
I'd protest endless spam in a game, but as long as LoN and the Station Exchange servers are making that kind of cash for Sony, they're going to stay no matter how many folks protest it on the forums.
Only $180,000? Crap, a F2P can make that in a week! On popular F2P games, $250,000 wouldn't be too much just by their sheer number of players and the need to break the mind numbing grinding!
RMT on EQ2 is a waste, not enough players for the return.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
It's a gamble, that's all SoE did. They kept it quiet until after expansion release of EQ/EQ2 to dampen the blow but many people have left and closed their account, including me.
Are the people buying Station Cash going to make up for the lost accounts? I hardly think so, they made a blunder. They didn't expect the community to turn against them.
When your MMO community turns against you en mass, you can pretty much pack your bags. This has cost them way too many players and a good hit in their reputation as well.
I'm all for new things, just as long as they are reserved for new games.
And adding content through expansions? That's not just my rule, it's the rule the greater computer entertainment industry embraces. And it works. MMOs, however, claim an exclusive prerogative to add, delete, bait and switch, vandalize, and break the software I own. See, once that game package gets into my hands over the counter or over the digital download server, it becomes my game just as long as I don't sell or distribute copies of it. Every other computer entertainment offering understands this. MMOs refuse to acknowledge this...yet.
But I actually agree with you that certainty is the antithesis of what makes an MMO an MMO. But there is an exciting form of uncertainty and a frustrating form of uncertainty. The exciting stuff is all the work of players interacting with players; that's the sort of uncertainty that makes MMOs uniquely appealing.
The frustrating stuff is when these wireheads on the live teams say, "wouldn't this be neat to try?," and end up causing players to forum scrounge looking for patch notes just to figure out what their game mechanics look like today as opposed to yesterday. Changes like that cause friendships to dissolve, people to swear off MMOs for good, parents to cancel theit kid's subscription, and breaks the suspension of disbelief.
Life, believe it or not, is more static than changing. For example, the laws of physics don't change in the real world, but in MMOs they do because the developers always have to tinker with things like damage metrics, skillsets, classes, loot tables, etc. They refuse to act as the custodians of what we enjoy, and act like creators themselves; which means they will almost always fail because post-launch is just not as malleable as pre-launch. You end up pissing off more people than you retain, speeding up the "churn" even more. And those that leave won't be coming back because the MMO as they knew it is no longer available.
How much do I have to pay to get a restrained post-launch development staff that act as custodians like they ought to? $15? $30? $100? I'd much rather pay more for a restrained live team than anything I can get from RMT. Or is there no price for that, since the ego of these devs is more important than money?
The reason MMOs tend to suck today is that the agents of change in the MMO aren't the players who create the variety we like about MMOs. They are the developers who refuse to restrain themselves for the sake of the integrity of their product and the genre.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
We, as the MMORPG consumer, have a choice:
We have been backed into a corner too often, and for too long. It is high time way say this:
You want rip off payment schemes? Not with my dollar!
quoting for emphasis and stealing it for my signature.
The irony, and truth, is that when they return to being creative, and not commercial, they will make more money than ever imagined.
And, they will be utterly shocked, my God! how gamers like customizaton, depth, and immersion. Geez, we thought these idiots would willingly accept our payment schemes *scams.
We want world again. We want literature. Immersion. Customization. True, and genuine, Questing. We have been so dumbed-downed that it is like... no, these payment schemes are NOT acceptable; and we will reject them (see EA's profits, as consumers "turn-away" from EA's titles).
Edit: "Turn-away" from EA is not my language; that is from the Wall Street Journal discussing how consumers reject purchasing EA products, in a gaming bull market. Not my words. People have seen the same "Madden" and "need for speed" and "sim" since ... a decade ago. And acquiring, milking, and then burning is a failed business strategy.
I hate microtransactions & hopefully will always be able to avoid games that contain them.
Paying for expansions & mini-dungeons etc is fine, but not for cheating.
Just my opinion.
If you can't "Have your cake & eat it too", then how can "The proof of the pudding be in the eating"?
Take the Hecatomb? TCG What Is Your Doom? quiz.
I'm not sure of the legality of that. But that's another discussion that of course leads to the private server argument.
I think in an mmo's case you are buying into a service and then paying a monthly fee.
And to the person who wrote that
Before: gamemakers love games and made money
After: gamemakers love money and make games
(or something like that)
Are we so sure? Did they really make enough money? I think this is a common misconception among gamers that "before" game makers made enough money to take care of all their needs until big business came riding in their big tacky limosine and took over.
People are people. Gamemakers are no different than any of us. And business is business. It always has been.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Eventually, a small company will capitalize well on the niche market. Until that occurs, I have quit MMO's.
Don't you get it? We don't want "innovation" that turns our games into something we didn't originally buy into. We had games that worked, that were apparently rather popular, and that we enjoyed just the way they were. We don't mind expansion packs; we have that in single player and non-MMO multiplayer too. But for me at least, a "post-release update" means one of two things: either the game wasn't finished as advertised, or the developers want to change our software into something we never bought.
Some think that "never leaving production" is a virtue in MMOs. Actually though, it's this genre's biggest failing, because nobody ever know what they are going to get on any given day. All I want is certainty, and for me at least, certainty is more important than innovation. Content to me (and many others) is something I don't need as much as a stable software product that doesn't change at the whim of some marketeer. Because I can create my own content if the platform is stable. What I can't do is create the stable platform.
This is the way I have felt for a long time. I am glad there is someone else out there that feels this way. I have always said you can go back and play your favorite single player rpg hit from the past anytime you want but you can never go back and play the MMORPG hit from the past because it no longer exists.
I do just that go back and play some old great rpgs of the past, and they are just as great today because of what made them a hit in the past. Look at Everquest for example it is pure garbage now in my opinion. Even if you don't agree with that you can agree it isn't the same game we purchased in 1999. That game in 1999 was a hit and it is gone.
Eventually, a small company will capitalize well on the niche market. Until that occurs, I have quit MMO's.
Likewise. All downhill since WoW. Add some microtransactions in there and another big budget linear game, and we have epic fail!. Darkfall is THE last hope for me, and if thats a crapshoot, I'm done.
Darkfall Travelogues!
That's because devs are literally making a FPS game and pasting some RPG elements into it.
FPS games work on small maps with direct action and players working on skill, not farming names for "lewtz".
Until publishers/devs understand MMOs aren't FPS games (and MMO players who keep crying for FPS style warring [and PvP]), this trend will continue all the way to it's bitter end.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
I agree with the part about games being just entertainment, but disagree with almost everything else.
I couldn't give a damn about what is/isn't supposed to be hardcore as I am proud to be a casual gamer. I don't particularly care if other players with more time get to level faster then me, as I play games for fun not as some sort of status symbol.
How can spending $10 every two hours to get a 50% (not 5%) XP bonus possibly be considered a way of saving me money? Using that logic why don't people just pay for level up potions or even better just buy high level characters off the peg? I want to really play the game for myself, not pay extra money to be able to pretend to other players that I have the time to be 'Hardcore'.
In an interview a while back, SOE said that they liked the idea of microtransactions because people might accidentally overspend & not realise until they they got their credit card bill that they had spent five times more than the monthly subscription. If I wanted to waste money that fast I would play one-armed bandits!
Microtransactions & RMT are the same thing. Claiming they aren't is like saying that paying by credit card isn't like spending real money either, but that is exactly how companies like SOE would like us to feel.
There is nothing innovative about turning an MMO into some sort of virtual casino.
Just my opinion though.
If you can't "Have your cake & eat it too", then how can "The proof of the pudding be in the eating"?
Take the Hecatomb? TCG What Is Your Doom? quiz.
Many of us simply will not play in a game with these payment schemes (scams).
We, as the gaming community, though excessively tolerant of content abuses, will not tolerate abuses that involve taking our real-life money.
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH
What you pay for when you buy the game discs for an MMO isn't the game itself. It's the ability to access the company's game servers, and the software to help you do it. That's it. The game is hosted on their servers. You get 30 free days to see if you like the game and the service being provided. After that, you have to subscribe.
That's what makes MMO's fundamentally different from other types of computer games. If I buy a copy of Diablo II or Starcraft, I can play them on my own at home, or I can connect online to play with others on the Battle.net servers. That's not the same as an MMO. Why? Because those games function outside of the Battle.net servers. I don't need to go online in order to play.
The game discs you buy for an MMO might as well be coasters outside of the hosted servers that SOE, Mythic, Turbine, NCSoft, or anyone else provides, since you can't play the games without going on the developer's servers or paying subscription fees. Because of that, they have every right in the world to change their games as they see fit. You don't own the game. THEY do. You're just paying for the right to play their game on their servers.
Exactly. And that's why MMOs will fail. Because although they have the power to upset my game, I would argue that they don't have the right. I should be able to choose what features I want, and not the features they force me to accept.
This new medium was supposed to be about freedom, and the cooperative effort of developers who play, and players who shape development, like the MUDs used to do. Today though, it's about the publishers doing whatever they feel like and the only voice we have is "take it or leave it."
See, I understand what you are saying. I just no longer accept it. It took me awhile, but I eventually came to the conclusion that the whole trend of development lately isn't to maintain the vision of the original designers, but to be constantly designing whether the game is better for it, or not. After all, if the game worked, there would be no need for constant redesigning of the game. So these folks find things to "correct" even if nothing need be corrected.
The trust has been broken between developers and players. We no longer see them as "gods" anymore, but men, and bad, selfish, and clueless men at that. That's why I like games like Spore and Oblivion, because they give me the freedom to take charge of my own gaming experience, like MMOs used to do, rather than have a gaming experience be forced upon me at an accountant's whim.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE