Originally posted by Waterlily I ask you what the point would be of progression in a game when you can buy said items by means of $. I ask you what the point of role playing is when you can buy any item by means of using real life $. I ask you what the point is of playing a game where no one wants to help you on your adventures because they know they can just get said items with $. What is the point of a role playing environment with specific items when you can get all of those items by completely bypassing any role playing and adventuring in the world you play in, but instead buy them from a screen with a visa card. Exactly, there would be no point to have items in the game at all.
^^ FTW ^^
I cancelled my subscription to EQ2 over it, and other things that has gnawed on me for months about the game, with the TSO expansion being a major pile of firewood, RMT the match that set it all off.
But what does it matter? Who cares what other people have? The game is for fun and enjoyment how does what other people have affect your fun or enjoyment.
It doesn’t, unless its a PvP game, it comes down to jealously. Nothing more.
How can I be jeaous of anything that I can just go and buy from the item shop?
That obviously is not it, and you know it.
This is all about play to achieve vs pay to exist.
RMT alters the very fundementals of game play how progression takes place within it. It changes the game for us all. In fact, it stops MMORPGs even being games.. they are more now correctly just 'virtual environments' where people go through the comatose motions of operating virtual knitting machines just to kill time.
Listen, I have a full time job and active extended family and I obviously don't get the same time to play as I did as a teenager, but the time I DO get to play I want to play to achieve. I don't care if I am not as 'ubr' as the next guy because I havent put as much time in as as him, he plays his game and I play mine, but I am proud of what I have achieved and the adventures I have had along the way.
The irony here is that the statement "It doesn’t, unless its a PvP game, it comes down to jealously. Nothing more." is the complete opposite of the truth.
RMT only exists because of the jealousy of casual gamers to have the same as those that can put more time into a game. Oh, and it also suits the lazy and inept of course...
Once again RMT has no affect on your PLAY to ACHIEVE.
Yes. It. Does.
You can keep saying 'once again' until your blue, but your just plain out wrong.
It changes the fundemental game and the means to progress within it.
The whole reason RMT games are such cash cows are because people feel the need to pay money to compete with each other. If this wasnt true then none of these RMT so called 'free to play' games would never make any money.
If you think that RMT games arnt designed explicitly to seperate you from your revenue then your incredibly naive.
RMT exists because MMO games currently are not fair or even. RMT makes them more fair and more even.
No.
Boy...
The games are fair and even. Your outside life may not be, but subscription based games, as they are designed without outside manipulation by goldsellers and other cheats, are.
As I stated earlier right now MMO games are unfairly biased towards players with large amounts of time.
You see, this is the jealousy I am talking about.
You are jealous of the guys with the time 'cause they get the items you want.
I don't spend as much time in game as some, but I am not jealous enough of them to want to spend money in a item shop to have what they have.
I am proud of what I achieve.
People who play 5-10 hours a day are achieving a lot more then a person who can only play 1-3 hours per day.
Get over it and stop being jealous.
Play your own game.
Currently MMO companies have decided not to design the game in any fashion that makes those two play styles equal. TIME should not be so overwhelming in gameplay. TIME does not make you the better player or more worthy of better rewards.
Seriously, you and your kind are the cancer eating away at achievment based gaming.
You are the reason that everything is ez mode lite these days, and buying your way to the top is an extension of that.
It's honestly tragic for the genre.
IF MMO companies... /snip 'cause your talking rubbish.
... jealous or gets all of their game satifisaction from hoping that others are envious of what they have in game.
See above as to why you are wrong.
( I could see the issue if they made RMT the only way to advance your character but that is never going to happen )
RMT exists because MMO games currently are not fair or even. RMT makes them more fair and more even.
They certainly do no such thing. RMT is by definition only available to players who are willing to spend extra cash to buy items.
Anyone who does not partake in such schemes is put on another playing field. They do everything but make the gameplay of said MMO's fair.
How do they make them unfair?
Here is an example:
Player A is a college student who does well in school and doesn't need to study that much (he is quite Smart). He is going to school on a full ride and doesn't need to work. So in his spare time he plays World of Warcraft from around 4pm (after classes) until around 2am everyday. He is a guild leader for a top raid guild on his server and has cleared all of the raid content. He has a full set of teir 6+ gear (using pre WoTLK as an example) and has everything in the game.
His guild's MT had to quit the game (or decided to move onto something else) and so he decides to look for a new MT.
He could choose player B who is basically the exact same as Player A he plays for about 10 hours a day and is fully geared.
Or
He could choose player C who is an Executive VP for JPMorgan Chase. Player C only plays from around 9pm to 2am. So Player C can make all of the raids but doesn't have as much time to have gotten to Tier 6+ gear already. So Player C hops onto Blizzard's shop and purchases the gear to put him at the level he needs.
So the guild leader has the choice between two players who are both talented at their characters and are now equal in gear. Either is a good choice.
Without RMT Player C would never be able to get all of the gear and therefore would never be able to experience the "endgame" content.
Now of course their is a "Better option" in my opinion but "raiders" whine just as much about it. Make all of the content in the game scalable based on Group size. Once again I will use WoW as an example:
Black Temple was a 25 man raid and was geared as such but if you go in with only 5 people then have that dungeon scale down by 1/5 or if you can only go in with 3 people that have it scale down by 1/8. This doesn't mean make it super easy but scale down damage done and the amount of hitpoints the mobs have based on available healing and DPS of the group. Then everyone could experience all of the content that a game offers.
Until a Developer does this their will always be RMT.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Once again RMT has no affect on your PLAY to ACHIEVE. Yes. It. Does. You can keep saying 'once again' until your blue, but your just plain out wrong. It changes the fundemental game and the means to progress within it. The whole reason RMT games are such cash cows are because people feel the need to pay money to compete with each other. If this wasnt true then none of these RMT so called 'free to play' games would never make any money. If you think that RMT games arnt designed explicitly to seperate you from your revenue then your incredibly naive. RMT exists because MMO games currently are not fair or even. RMT makes them more fair and more even. No. Boy... The games are fair and even. Your outside life may not be, but subscription based games, as they are designed without outside manipulation by goldsellers and other cheats, are. As I stated earlier right now MMO games are unfairly biased towards players with large amounts of time. You see, this is the jealousy I am talking about. You are jealous of the guys with the time 'cause they get the items you want. I don't spend as much time in game as some, but I am not jealous enough of them to want to spend money in a item shop to have what they have. I am proud of what I achieve. People who play 5-10 hours a day are achieving a lot more then a person who can only play 1-3 hours per day. Get over it and stop being jealous. Play your own game. Currently MMO companies have decided not to design the game in any fashion that makes those two play styles equal. TIME should not be so overwhelming in gameplay. TIME does not make you the better player or more worthy of better rewards. Seriously, you and your kind are the cancer eating away at achievment based gaming. You are the reason that everything is ez mode lite these days, and buying your way to the top is an extension of that. It's honestly tragic for the genre. IF MMO companies... /snip 'cause your talking rubbish. ... jealous or gets all of their game satifisaction from hoping that others are envious of what they have in game. See above as to why you are wrong. ( I could see the issue if they made RMT the only way to advance your character but that is never going to happen ) Yes. It. Will. because people like you will let it happen.
Sorry unlike you I play the Game for Fun. I get no "Achievement" out of it I get no feeling of worth from a video game. I play to have fun and enjoy my time in the game.
Sorry that players like me bother your sense of self worth. Luckily I get my achievement in real life and my feeling of self worth in real life as well.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Pretending that some casual players who spend money on items, because they are behind, will level the playing field, while completely ignoring that a good deal of players will not spend money on these items is exactly what SoE tried to sell us in a statement.
Not only will players who do not spend money on said items be more behind others, they will relatively be left out from grouping opportunities in the future when RMT items directly unbalance the individual playing power of players.
They will also unbalance the high end when said items become a requirement for raiding guilds, and asking a recruit if they have said RMT item was not uncommon in EQ.
Luckily some EQ/EQ2 players do have the ability to take any such comments and propaganda with a grain of salt and think twice before thinking that this would in any way level the playing field when in fact it would do the reverse for anyone not partaking in such schemes.
You should be working for SoE Cabe. Pretending that some casual players who spend money on items, because they are behind, will level the playing field, while completely ignoring that a good deal of players will not spend money on these items is exactly what SoE tried to sell us in a statement. Not only will players who do not spend money on said items be more behind others, they will relatively be left out from grouping opportunities in the future when RMT items directly unbalance the individual playing power of players. They will also unbalance the high end when said items become a requirement for raiding guilds, and asking a recruit if they have said RMT item was not uncommon in EQ. Luckily some EQ/EQ2 players do have the ability to take any such comments and propaganda with a grain of salt and think twice before thinking that this would in any way level the playing field when in fact it would do the reverse for anyone not partaking in such schemes.
THe only way it would unbalance the game is the following:
Okay I am walking up to the Black temple and the door is locked. A message pops up and says that will be 10 dollars to attempt Black temple please.
Otherwise people can always achieve what ever they want in these games without using RMT. The guild you apply for requires RMT join a different guild.
Guess what you now get to feel what Casual players have had to feel for years. In the past it was Can't raid 5-6 nights per week from 8pm until 2am then sorry you can't join.
I don't feel sorry for you at all. This is just karma catching up to the players who used their overabudance of "Time" to keep other players down.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Once again RMT has no affect on your PLAY to ACHIEVE. Yes. It. Does. You can keep saying 'once again' until your blue, but your just plain out wrong. It changes the fundemental game and the means to progress within it. The whole reason RMT games are such cash cows are because people feel the need to pay money to compete with each other. If this wasnt true then none of these RMT so called 'free to play' games would never make any money. If you think that RMT games arnt designed explicitly to seperate you from your revenue then your incredibly naive. RMT exists because MMO games currently are not fair or even. RMT makes them more fair and more even. No. Boy... The games are fair and even. Your outside life may not be, but subscription based games, as they are designed without outside manipulation by goldsellers and other cheats, are. As I stated earlier right now MMO games are unfairly biased towards players with large amounts of time. You see, this is the jealousy I am talking about. You are jealous of the guys with the time 'cause they get the items you want. I don't spend as much time in game as some, but I am not jealous enough of them to want to spend money in a item shop to have what they have. I am proud of what I achieve. People who play 5-10 hours a day are achieving a lot more then a person who can only play 1-3 hours per day. Get over it and stop being jealous. Play your own game. Currently MMO companies have decided not to design the game in any fashion that makes those two play styles equal. TIME should not be so overwhelming in gameplay. TIME does not make you the better player or more worthy of better rewards. Seriously, you and your kind are the cancer eating away at achievment based gaming. You are the reason that everything is ez mode lite these days, and buying your way to the top is an extension of that. It's honestly tragic for the genre. IF MMO companies... /snip 'cause your talking rubbish. ... jealous or gets all of their game satifisaction from hoping that others are envious of what they have in game. See above as to why you are wrong. ( I could see the issue if they made RMT the only way to advance your character but that is never going to happen ) Yes. It. Will. because people like you will let it happen.
Sorry unlike you I play the Game for Fun. I get no "Achievement" out of it I get no feeling of worth from a video game. I play to have fun and enjoy my time in the game.
Sorry that players like me bother your sense of self worth. Luckily I get my achievement in real life and my feeling of self worth in real life as well.
So now you are arguing for games with no sense of achievement in them at all?
Because people who want to learn and 'beat' them, and who get a sense of pleasure from overcoming challange and building a character in a RPG, have 'no sense of worth in real life'?
So now you are arguing for games with no sense of achievement in them at all? Because people who want to learn and 'beat' them have 'no sense of worth in real life'? If your the future, gaming is dead.
The future? I am the past and present.
RMT is a billion dollar a year business in the West and that is counting 3rd party "Illegal" selling only. People have been buying gold and accounts and items since Diablo 1 (and probably before that on other games), Ultima Online, EQ1, and AC1 all came out.
This isn't some new thing. There have always been players who purchased their characters because they had more money then Time.
Video Games are not a job. Video Games are an entertainment option that are meant to be fun. If bypassing the "Grind" of a game is what someone finds to be fun then let them do it.
As I said before the only person to blame are Developers. They are the ones who design games that splinter the playerbase. If they made games where all content was available to all players then there would be no RMT industry at all.
Also once again there is nothing stopping people from playing without RMT. Unless they add in features where you have to pay to see content then there is nothing stopping you from enjoying the game how you already do enjoy it.
I guess you are all scared that you are such a minority that you want be able to form groups or guilds of liked minded players?
If that is the case and people who don't mind and would like to take advantage of RMT are the majority then shouldn't it definitely be put into the games?
How does a player leveling their character to 80 in WoW or purchasing a level 80 character affect YOUR gameplay at all?
So what he might not know his character as well then guess what don't group with him. Although I would venture to guess that you couldn't tell if someone was playing their character or one that they purchased in most cases.
These games aren't brain surgery it doesn't take much to learn how to play them.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Originally posted by Cabe2323 The guild you apply for requires RMT join a different guild.
When ALL guilds require it to stay competitive (especially the top raiding guilds), there is nowhere else to go but to cancel the account (and usually out of sheer exasperation). Forget getting a different guild.
That doesn't help the game, the community, and alienates most of the MMOs players (as few have $500/mon to blow -- except for the gold farmers/buyers who keep defending this scheme).
The guild you apply for requires RMT join a different guild.
When ALL guilds require it to stay competitive (especially the top raiding guilds), there is nowhere else to go but to cancel the account (and usually out of sheer exasperation). Forget getting a different guild.
That doesn't help the game, the community, and alienates most of the MMOs players (as few have $500/mon to blow -- except for the gold farmers/buyers who keep defending this scheme).
If your guild is telling you you need to RMT then report it.
Originally posted by Cabe2323 Sorry unlike you I play the Game for Fun. I get no "Achievement" out of it I get no feeling of worth from a video game. I play to have fun and enjoy my time in the game.
Sorry that players like me bother your sense of self worth. Luckily I get my achievement in real life and my feeling of self worth in real life as well.
What you want is basically, "The Sims" online. Fluff for clothing; housing; 1001 pets; glowing hands. Not game play, pure bargin basement stuff from the dev's incomplete projects libary.
Go get The Sims, and enjoy yourself. Let gamers play games that require something more than decorating themselves and their homes!
The guild you apply for requires RMT join a different guild.
When ALL guilds require it to stay competitive (especially the top raiding guilds), there is nowhere else to go but to cancel the account (and usually out of sheer exasperation). Forget getting a different guild.
That doesn't help the game, the community, and alienates most of the MMOs players (as few have $500/mon to blow -- except for the gold farmers/buyers who keep defending this scheme).
First off you are a hypocrit. Your quote to the left means you should be supportative of all play styles.
Secondly start your own guild if all the guilds you try to join choose the RMT manner to level. They already choose ridiculous play time requirements that normal healthly people can not possibly meet.
Sorry but no healthy individual (mentally and physically speaking) can play these games for 10 hours a day 5-6 days per week.
Do you know they have support groups for divorces caused by MMOs now. It is that big of a problem. There have been deaths caused by players already trying to keep up this ridiculous gameplay style. Anything that stops the "Time" being the greatest resource is a good thing.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Ahh, but another step towards the "Gimme Now" generation. The generation that wants everything, but doesn't want to have to do ANYTHING to get it. Why put effort into earning something when you can just go buy it?
Sad really. The people pushing for RMT are the ones that want everything handed to them on a silver platter, have absolutely no sense of accomplishment, and probably will only play the game a few weeks before getting bored and moving on. How hard is it to understand that MMOs are about adventure, progression, and achievment, and using a cash shop completely ruins all of those? If you want all of your gear instantly and without effort, go play a fps.
BTW, any form of cash shop in a pay to play game is nothing more than an attempt to milk more money out of their customers, and can't be seen as anything else. The cost to make those items is paid for in 2 or 3 sellings of the item.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
Originally posted by Cabe2323 First off you are a hypocrit. Your quote to the left means you should be supportative of all play styles.
When it's NOT cheating. Buying your way to the top is cheating, no way around it.
If a soloer; grouper; raider want to work to get their gear more the merrier. But if someone wants to ride on their coat tails to the top by paying for it, it cheapens their work. Buyers like that spit in their faces, and it's no wonder why they (and I) are disgusted by this RMT entering the games (especially on top of a P2P model).
It makes the "end-game" worthless, when these "mythical update" sellers, and these item mall buyers can get it purely by credit card.
Sorry unlike you I play the Game for Fun. I get no "Achievement" out of it I get no feeling of worth from a video game. I play to have fun and enjoy my time in the game.
Sorry that players like me bother your sense of self worth. Luckily I get my achievement in real life and my feeling of self worth in real life as well.
What you want is basically, "The Sims" online. Fluff for clothing; housing; 1001 pets; glowing hands. Not game play, pure bargin basement stuff from the dev's incomplete projects libary.
Go get The Sims, and enjoy yourself. Let gamers play games that require something more than decorating themselves and their homes!
Once again your comments show that you are a hypocrit. You really should change your quote to reflect that it only applies to what you think. You really aren't open to different play styles.
I have played MMO games exclusively since 1997 when Ultima Online launched. I have played almost every game since UO. (About 42 of them now) I play to have fun and hang out with other people while killing stuff and enjoying the game. I would love to be able to see all of the content that I deserve to see because I paid for the game just like anyone else but I spend a lot of my time with my family and RL stuff.
So in the current world of MMO games I will never get to experience the added content that I am paying for. Things like Sunwell or BT etc. Because I can't devote the "Time" that others can to get the gear required to see that content.
So I am missing out on major parts of the content because of a stupid "Time investment" requirement. Heck at my peak of playing in WoW I could tell you everything you could possibly want to know about playing a rogue. I was better then the vast majority of Tier 6 rogues that I ran into with the nuances of the character but I could never go and see that content because I was undergeared and didn't have the time to invest in that content.
RMT makes it possible for people to see more of the content.
As I said I would rather them scale all of the game content to group size so it would make it easier for everyone to see it.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Basically it's as if a bunch of wealthy guys who had much less time to practice would have the ability to pay so that in their next pick-up basketball game, every basket they make counts for three points, while the other team's baskets count for two points. That is what RMT does, in a nutshell.
The notion that it is unfair that people who have more time advance in these games more quickly than others is an argument against human life and experience in general. You advance at *everything* in life more quickly the more time and effort you put against it. This is the way of the world. It's also the case in every other hobby. Let's say you have fishing as a hobby. The guy who goes fishing every weekend is probably going to advance at the hobby more quickly than the person who fishes once a month or less. And the once a month guy can't go and buy his way ahead in the hobby -- sure, he can get a fancy pole and fancy gear, but he can't "buy" the experience that he doesn't have -- he has to use the same effort that the other guy did to get good at fishing. MMORPGs, where character advancement is similarly designed to emulate this "work over time develops experience" idea based on our experiences in real life, work the same way.
All RMT does is let the once a month fisherman buy a special lure that makes him as good a fisherman as the once a week guy -- in the name of "fun", of course, because unlike the once a week guy, I have a life, you know? Oh and by the way, that will be three points for my baskets, because I PAID FOR THE THREE POINTS, YOU DAMNED NO LIFERS.
Oh, and by the way, I am not a powergamer -- my play time is generally around 20 hours per week, so I should be jumping up and down for joy at the advent of RMT, but, sorry, I don't see it as fair, reasonable, or equitable for those of us who are wealthier to buy shortcuts around the efforts made by others.
EDIT" Yes, I know RMT is not the same as MT, but where MT allows people to purchase, with RL currency, XP enhancers that give them a different ruleset in terms of the XP curve, then I have a huge issue with that, regardless of it being MT and not RMT.
All of the responses so far are just reinforcing my point. Its jealousy, and a sever case of "keeping up with the joneses".
"Oh noz, Microtransactions!!"
"Oh noz, leveling is quick and fun!!"
"Oh noz, death dosn't delete your player and shock your chair!!!"
"Oh noz, player X has somthing i dont, and i was here from beta!!"
"Oh noz, this dosnt feel enough like work!"
Also, RMT is not the same as Microtransaction, come on people.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
Originally posted by Cabe2323 Once again your comments show that you are a hypocrit. You really should change your quote to reflect that it only applies to what you think. You really aren't open to different play styles.
Stop trolling. It's not me that's the issue here, it's RMT.
I have a deepest distain for cheaters and exploiter excusers. They cheapen the game and the genre for their selfishness.
Those who get their gear by earning it, have my respect -- they tested their mettle and won, and didn't seek a crutch.
Basically it's as if a bunch of wealthy guys who had much less time to practice would have the ability to pay so that in their next pick-up basketball game, every basket they make counts for three points, while the other team's baskets count for two points. That is what RMT does, in a nutshell. The notion that it is unfair that people who have more time advance in these games more quickly than others is an argument against human life and experience in general. You advance at *everything* in life more quickly the more time and effort you put against it. This is the way of the world. It's also the case in every other hobby. Let's say you have fishing as a hobby. The guy who goes fishing every weekend is probably going to advance at the hobby more quickly than the person who fishes once a month or less. And the once a month guy can't go and buy his way ahead in the hobby -- sure, he can get a fancy pole and fancy gear, but he can't "buy" the experience that he doesn't have -- he has to use the same effort that the other guy did to get good at fishing. MMORPGs, where character advancement is similarly designed to emulate this "work over time develops experience" idea based on our experiences in real life, work the same way. All RMT does is let the once a month fisherman buy a special lure that makes him as good a fisherman as the once a week guy -- in the name of "fun", of course, because unlike the once a week guy, I have a life, you know? Oh and by the way, that will be three points for my baskets, because I PAID FOR THE THREE POINTS, YOU DAMNED NO LIFERS. Oh, and by the way, I am not a powergamer -- my play time is generally around 20 hours per week, so I should be jumping up and down for joy at the advent of RMT, but, sorry, I don't see it as fair, reasonable, or equitable for those of us who are wealthier to buy shortcuts around the efforts made by others.
Very well said. Unfortunately the RMT supporters don't care. It's all about "me" for them.
All of the responses so far are just reinforcing my point. Its jealousy, and a sever case of "keeping up with the joneses". "Oh noz, Microtransactions!!" "Oh noz, leveling is quick and fun!!" "Oh noz, death dosn't delete your player and shock your chair!!!" "Oh noz, player X has somthing i dont, and i was here from beta!!" "Oh noz, this dosnt feel enough like work!"
Also, RMT is not the same as Microtransaction,come on people.
All the pro-RMT repsonses are just reinforcing my point.
"Oh noz, he has more time to play then me! not fairz!!"
"Oh noz, his character is better than mine because he earned his gear!!!"
"Oh noz, I have to actually put effort in to be good!!"
"Oh noz, I don't get stuff handed to me on a platter!!"
See, I can simplify your sides arguments into ridiculous sentences a pre-schooler could write too.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
Basically it's as if a bunch of wealthy guys who had much less time to practice would have the ability to pay so that in their next pick-up basketball game, every basket they make counts for three points, while the other team's baskets count for two points. That is what RMT does, in a nutshell. The notion that it is unfair that people who have more time advance in these games more quickly than others is an argument against human life and experience in general. You advance at *everything* in life more quickly the more time and effort you put against it. This is the way of the world. It's also the case in every other hobby. Let's say you have fishing as a hobby. The guy who goes fishing every weekend is probably going to advance at the hobby more quickly than the person who fishes once a month or less. And the once a month guy can't go and buy his way ahead in the hobby -- sure, he can get a fancy pole and fancy gear, but he can't "buy" the experience that he doesn't have -- he has to use the same effort that the other guy did to get good at fishing. MMORPGs, where character advancement is similarly designed to emulate this "work over time develops experience" idea based on our experiences in real life, work the same way. All RMT does is let the once a month fisherman buy a special lure that makes him as good a fisherman as the once a week guy -- in the name of "fun", of course, because unlike the once a week guy, I have a life, you know? Oh and by the way, that will be three points for my baskets, because I PAID FOR THE THREE POINTS, YOU DAMNED NO LIFERS. Oh, and by the way, I am not a powergamer -- my play time is generally around 20 hours per week, so I should be jumping up and down for joy at the advent of RMT, but, sorry, I don't see it as fair, reasonable, or equitable for those of us who are wealthier to buy shortcuts around the efforts made by others.
Very well said. Unfortunately the RMT supporters don't care. It's all about "me" for them.
His comment would have had some clout, is MMO's were some sort of sport, they are not, they are entertainment and for fun. Not a test of skill, sportsmanship, and fame.
Comparing them to spots if laughable, and per of the root of the issue.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
All of the responses so far are just reinforcing my point. Its jealousy, and a sever case of "keeping up with the joneses". "Oh noz, Microtransactions!!" "Oh noz, leveling is quick and fun!!" "Oh noz, death dosn't delete your player and shock your chair!!!" "Oh noz, player X has somthing i dont, and i was here from beta!!" "Oh noz, this dosnt feel enough like work!"
Also, RMT is not the same as Microtransaction,come on people.
All the pro-RMT repsonses are just reinforcing my point.
"Oh noz, he has more time to play then me! not fairz!!"
"Oh noz, his character is better than mine because he earned his gear!!!"
"Oh noz, I have to actually put effort in to be good!!"
"Oh noz, I don't get stuff handed to me on a platter!!"
See, I can simplify your sides arguments into ridiculous sentences a pre-schooler could write too.
What the hell. I would agree if the items we were talking about were nothing more than fluff.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
Comments
^^ FTW ^^
I cancelled my subscription to EQ2 over it, and other things that has gnawed on me for months about the game, with the TSO expansion being a major pile of firewood, RMT the match that set it all off.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
But what does it matter? Who cares what other people have? The game is for fun and enjoyment how does what other people have affect your fun or enjoyment.
It doesn’t, unless its a PvP game, it comes down to jealously. Nothing more.
How can I be jeaous of anything that I can just go and buy from the item shop?
That obviously is not it, and you know it.
This is all about play to achieve vs pay to exist.
RMT alters the very fundementals of game play how progression takes place within it. It changes the game for us all. In fact, it stops MMORPGs even being games.. they are more now correctly just 'virtual environments' where people go through the comatose motions of operating virtual knitting machines just to kill time.
Listen, I have a full time job and active extended family and I obviously don't get the same time to play as I did as a teenager, but the time I DO get to play I want to play to achieve. I don't care if I am not as 'ubr' as the next guy because I havent put as much time in as as him, he plays his game and I play mine, but I am proud of what I have achieved and the adventures I have had along the way.
The irony here is that the statement "It doesn’t, unless its a PvP game, it comes down to jealously. Nothing more." is the complete opposite of the truth.
RMT only exists because of the jealousy of casual gamers to have the same as those that can put more time into a game. Oh, and it also suits the lazy and inept of course...
Once again RMT has no affect on your PLAY to ACHIEVE.
Yes. It. Does.
You can keep saying 'once again' until your blue, but your just plain out wrong.
It changes the fundemental game and the means to progress within it.
The whole reason RMT games are such cash cows are because people feel the need to pay money to compete with each other. If this wasnt true then none of these RMT so called 'free to play' games would never make any money.
If you think that RMT games arnt designed explicitly to seperate you from your revenue then your incredibly naive.
RMT exists because MMO games currently are not fair or even. RMT makes them more fair and more even.
No.
Boy...
The games are fair and even. Your outside life may not be, but subscription based games, as they are designed without outside manipulation by goldsellers and other cheats, are.
As I stated earlier right now MMO games are unfairly biased towards players with large amounts of time.
You see, this is the jealousy I am talking about.
You are jealous of the guys with the time 'cause they get the items you want.
I don't spend as much time in game as some, but I am not jealous enough of them to want to spend money in a item shop to have what they have.
I am proud of what I achieve.
People who play 5-10 hours a day are achieving a lot more then a person who can only play 1-3 hours per day.
Get over it and stop being jealous.
Play your own game.
Currently MMO companies have decided not to design the game in any fashion that makes those two play styles equal. TIME should not be so overwhelming in gameplay. TIME does not make you the better player or more worthy of better rewards.
Seriously, you and your kind are the cancer eating away at achievment based gaming.
You are the reason that everything is ez mode lite these days, and buying your way to the top is an extension of that.
It's honestly tragic for the genre.
IF MMO companies... /snip 'cause your talking rubbish.
... jealous or gets all of their game satifisaction from hoping that others are envious of what they have in game.
See above as to why you are wrong.
( I could see the issue if they made RMT the only way to advance your character but that is never going to happen )
Yes. It. Will.
because people like you will let it happen.
They certainly do no such thing. RMT is by definition only available to players who are willing to spend extra cash to buy items.
Anyone who does not partake in such schemes is put on another playing field. They do everything but make the gameplay of said MMO's fair.
How do they make them unfair?
Here is an example:
Player A is a college student who does well in school and doesn't need to study that much (he is quite Smart). He is going to school on a full ride and doesn't need to work. So in his spare time he plays World of Warcraft from around 4pm (after classes) until around 2am everyday. He is a guild leader for a top raid guild on his server and has cleared all of the raid content. He has a full set of teir 6+ gear (using pre WoTLK as an example) and has everything in the game.
His guild's MT had to quit the game (or decided to move onto something else) and so he decides to look for a new MT.
He could choose player B who is basically the exact same as Player A he plays for about 10 hours a day and is fully geared.
Or
He could choose player C who is an Executive VP for JPMorgan Chase. Player C only plays from around 9pm to 2am. So Player C can make all of the raids but doesn't have as much time to have gotten to Tier 6+ gear already. So Player C hops onto Blizzard's shop and purchases the gear to put him at the level he needs.
So the guild leader has the choice between two players who are both talented at their characters and are now equal in gear. Either is a good choice.
Without RMT Player C would never be able to get all of the gear and therefore would never be able to experience the "endgame" content.
Now of course their is a "Better option" in my opinion but "raiders" whine just as much about it. Make all of the content in the game scalable based on Group size. Once again I will use WoW as an example:
Black Temple was a 25 man raid and was geared as such but if you go in with only 5 people then have that dungeon scale down by 1/5 or if you can only go in with 3 people that have it scale down by 1/8. This doesn't mean make it super easy but scale down damage done and the amount of hitpoints the mobs have based on available healing and DPS of the group. Then everyone could experience all of the content that a game offers.
Until a Developer does this their will always be RMT.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Sorry unlike you I play the Game for Fun. I get no "Achievement" out of it I get no feeling of worth from a video game. I play to have fun and enjoy my time in the game.
Sorry that players like me bother your sense of self worth. Luckily I get my achievement in real life and my feeling of self worth in real life as well.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
You should be working for SoE Cabe.
Pretending that some casual players who spend money on items, because they are behind, will level the playing field, while completely ignoring that a good deal of players will not spend money on these items is exactly what SoE tried to sell us in a statement.
Not only will players who do not spend money on said items be more behind others, they will relatively be left out from grouping opportunities in the future when RMT items directly unbalance the individual playing power of players.
They will also unbalance the high end when said items become a requirement for raiding guilds, and asking a recruit if they have said RMT item was not uncommon in EQ.
Luckily some EQ/EQ2 players do have the ability to take any such comments and propaganda with a grain of salt and think twice before thinking that this would in any way level the playing field when in fact it would do the reverse for anyone not partaking in such schemes.
THe only way it would unbalance the game is the following:
Okay I am walking up to the Black temple and the door is locked. A message pops up and says that will be 10 dollars to attempt Black temple please.
Otherwise people can always achieve what ever they want in these games without using RMT. The guild you apply for requires RMT join a different guild.
Guess what you now get to feel what Casual players have had to feel for years. In the past it was Can't raid 5-6 nights per week from 8pm until 2am then sorry you can't join.
I don't feel sorry for you at all. This is just karma catching up to the players who used their overabudance of "Time" to keep other players down.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Sorry unlike you I play the Game for Fun. I get no "Achievement" out of it I get no feeling of worth from a video game. I play to have fun and enjoy my time in the game.
Sorry that players like me bother your sense of self worth. Luckily I get my achievement in real life and my feeling of self worth in real life as well.
So now you are arguing for games with no sense of achievement in them at all?
Because people who want to learn and 'beat' them, and who get a sense of pleasure from overcoming challange and building a character in a RPG, have 'no sense of worth in real life'?
If your the future, gaming is dead.
The future? I am the past and present.
RMT is a billion dollar a year business in the West and that is counting 3rd party "Illegal" selling only. People have been buying gold and accounts and items since Diablo 1 (and probably before that on other games), Ultima Online, EQ1, and AC1 all came out.
This isn't some new thing. There have always been players who purchased their characters because they had more money then Time.
Video Games are not a job. Video Games are an entertainment option that are meant to be fun. If bypassing the "Grind" of a game is what someone finds to be fun then let them do it.
As I said before the only person to blame are Developers. They are the ones who design games that splinter the playerbase. If they made games where all content was available to all players then there would be no RMT industry at all.
Also once again there is nothing stopping people from playing without RMT. Unless they add in features where you have to pay to see content then there is nothing stopping you from enjoying the game how you already do enjoy it.
I guess you are all scared that you are such a minority that you want be able to form groups or guilds of liked minded players?
If that is the case and people who don't mind and would like to take advantage of RMT are the majority then shouldn't it definitely be put into the games?
How does a player leveling their character to 80 in WoW or purchasing a level 80 character affect YOUR gameplay at all?
So what he might not know his character as well then guess what don't group with him. Although I would venture to guess that you couldn't tell if someone was playing their character or one that they purchased in most cases.
These games aren't brain surgery it doesn't take much to learn how to play them.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
When ALL guilds require it to stay competitive (especially the top raiding guilds), there is nowhere else to go but to cancel the account (and usually out of sheer exasperation). Forget getting a different guild.
That doesn't help the game, the community, and alienates most of the MMOs players (as few have $500/mon to blow -- except for the gold farmers/buyers who keep defending this scheme).
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
When ALL guilds require it to stay competitive (especially the top raiding guilds), there is nowhere else to go but to cancel the account (and usually out of sheer exasperation). Forget getting a different guild.
That doesn't help the game, the community, and alienates most of the MMOs players (as few have $500/mon to blow -- except for the gold farmers/buyers who keep defending this scheme).
If your guild is telling you you need to RMT then report it.
What you want is basically, "The Sims" online. Fluff for clothing; housing; 1001 pets; glowing hands. Not game play, pure bargin basement stuff from the dev's incomplete projects libary.
Go get The Sims, and enjoy yourself. Let gamers play games that require something more than decorating themselves and their homes!
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
When ALL guilds require it to stay competitive (especially the top raiding guilds), there is nowhere else to go but to cancel the account (and usually out of sheer exasperation). Forget getting a different guild.
That doesn't help the game, the community, and alienates most of the MMOs players (as few have $500/mon to blow -- except for the gold farmers/buyers who keep defending this scheme).
First off you are a hypocrit. Your quote to the left means you should be supportative of all play styles.
Secondly start your own guild if all the guilds you try to join choose the RMT manner to level. They already choose ridiculous play time requirements that normal healthly people can not possibly meet.
Sorry but no healthy individual (mentally and physically speaking) can play these games for 10 hours a day 5-6 days per week.
Do you know they have support groups for divorces caused by MMOs now. It is that big of a problem. There have been deaths caused by players already trying to keep up this ridiculous gameplay style. Anything that stops the "Time" being the greatest resource is a good thing.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
SoE isn't going to bite it's own hand. They'll encourage it, as they are that greedy.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
SoE isn't going to bite it's own hand. They'll encourage it, as they are that greedy.
Well it goes without saying you shouldn't be playing any SOE game. See you in Darkfall.
Ahh, but another step towards the "Gimme Now" generation. The generation that wants everything, but doesn't want to have to do ANYTHING to get it. Why put effort into earning something when you can just go buy it?
Sad really. The people pushing for RMT are the ones that want everything handed to them on a silver platter, have absolutely no sense of accomplishment, and probably will only play the game a few weeks before getting bored and moving on. How hard is it to understand that MMOs are about adventure, progression, and achievment, and using a cash shop completely ruins all of those? If you want all of your gear instantly and without effort, go play a fps.
BTW, any form of cash shop in a pay to play game is nothing more than an attempt to milk more money out of their customers, and can't be seen as anything else. The cost to make those items is paid for in 2 or 3 sellings of the item.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
When it's NOT cheating. Buying your way to the top is cheating, no way around it.
If a soloer; grouper; raider want to work to get their gear more the merrier. But if someone wants to ride on their coat tails to the top by paying for it, it cheapens their work. Buyers like that spit in their faces, and it's no wonder why they (and I) are disgusted by this RMT entering the games (especially on top of a P2P model).
It makes the "end-game" worthless, when these "mythical update" sellers, and these item mall buyers can get it purely by credit card.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
What you want is basically, "The Sims" online. Fluff for clothing; housing; 1001 pets; glowing hands. Not game play, pure bargin basement stuff from the dev's incomplete projects libary.
Go get The Sims, and enjoy yourself. Let gamers play games that require something more than decorating themselves and their homes!
Once again your comments show that you are a hypocrit. You really should change your quote to reflect that it only applies to what you think. You really aren't open to different play styles.
I have played MMO games exclusively since 1997 when Ultima Online launched. I have played almost every game since UO. (About 42 of them now) I play to have fun and hang out with other people while killing stuff and enjoying the game. I would love to be able to see all of the content that I deserve to see because I paid for the game just like anyone else but I spend a lot of my time with my family and RL stuff.
So in the current world of MMO games I will never get to experience the added content that I am paying for. Things like Sunwell or BT etc. Because I can't devote the "Time" that others can to get the gear required to see that content.
So I am missing out on major parts of the content because of a stupid "Time investment" requirement. Heck at my peak of playing in WoW I could tell you everything you could possibly want to know about playing a rogue. I was better then the vast majority of Tier 6 rogues that I ran into with the nuances of the character but I could never go and see that content because I was undergeared and didn't have the time to invest in that content.
RMT makes it possible for people to see more of the content.
As I said I would rather them scale all of the game content to group size so it would make it easier for everyone to see it.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Basically it's as if a bunch of wealthy guys who had much less time to practice would have the ability to pay so that in their next pick-up basketball game, every basket they make counts for three points, while the other team's baskets count for two points. That is what RMT does, in a nutshell.
The notion that it is unfair that people who have more time advance in these games more quickly than others is an argument against human life and experience in general. You advance at *everything* in life more quickly the more time and effort you put against it. This is the way of the world. It's also the case in every other hobby. Let's say you have fishing as a hobby. The guy who goes fishing every weekend is probably going to advance at the hobby more quickly than the person who fishes once a month or less. And the once a month guy can't go and buy his way ahead in the hobby -- sure, he can get a fancy pole and fancy gear, but he can't "buy" the experience that he doesn't have -- he has to use the same effort that the other guy did to get good at fishing. MMORPGs, where character advancement is similarly designed to emulate this "work over time develops experience" idea based on our experiences in real life, work the same way.
All RMT does is let the once a month fisherman buy a special lure that makes him as good a fisherman as the once a week guy -- in the name of "fun", of course, because unlike the once a week guy, I have a life, you know? Oh and by the way, that will be three points for my baskets, because I PAID FOR THE THREE POINTS, YOU DAMNED NO LIFERS.
Oh, and by the way, I am not a powergamer -- my play time is generally around 20 hours per week, so I should be jumping up and down for joy at the advent of RMT, but, sorry, I don't see it as fair, reasonable, or equitable for those of us who are wealthier to buy shortcuts around the efforts made by others.
EDIT" Yes, I know RMT is not the same as MT, but where MT allows people to purchase, with RL currency, XP enhancers that give them a different ruleset in terms of the XP curve, then I have a huge issue with that, regardless of it being MT and not RMT.
All of the responses so far are just reinforcing my point. Its jealousy, and a sever case of "keeping up with the joneses".
"Oh noz, Microtransactions!!"
"Oh noz, leveling is quick and fun!!"
"Oh noz, death dosn't delete your player and shock your chair!!!"
"Oh noz, player X has somthing i dont, and i was here from beta!!"
"Oh noz, this dosnt feel enough like work!"
Also, RMT is not the same as Microtransaction, come on people.
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
This is funny, if you need to buy your way into being good (gear). Then ask your self why you are playing the game?
Do you spend an extra 100 bucks on being better at FPS's?
Do you spend an extra 100 bucks on finishing an RPG faster?
Do you spend an extra 100 bucks to have some unit in an RTS that no one that dosnt spend 100 bucks does not have?
If the answer is no, then it is the same for MMO's. Most MMO's have their progression as gear. So by buying that gear you are wasting your own time.
Id explain it further but i have to get to work, i maybe edit this later.
Stop trolling. It's not me that's the issue here, it's RMT.
I have a deepest distain for cheaters and exploiter excusers. They cheapen the game and the genre for their selfishness.
Those who get their gear by earning it, have my respect -- they tested their mettle and won, and didn't seek a crutch.
Nothing you can say will change that fact.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Very well said. Unfortunately the RMT supporters don't care. It's all about "me" for them.
All the pro-RMT repsonses are just reinforcing my point.
"Oh noz, he has more time to play then me! not fairz!!"
"Oh noz, his character is better than mine because he earned his gear!!!"
"Oh noz, I have to actually put effort in to be good!!"
"Oh noz, I don't get stuff handed to me on a platter!!"
See, I can simplify your sides arguments into ridiculous sentences a pre-schooler could write too.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
Very well said. Unfortunately the RMT supporters don't care. It's all about "me" for them.
His comment would have had some clout, is MMO's were some sort of sport, they are not, they are entertainment and for fun. Not a test of skill, sportsmanship, and fame.
Comparing them to spots if laughable, and per of the root of the issue.
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
All the pro-RMT repsonses are just reinforcing my point.
"Oh noz, he has more time to play then me! not fairz!!"
"Oh noz, his character is better than mine because he earned his gear!!!"
"Oh noz, I have to actually put effort in to be good!!"
"Oh noz, I don't get stuff handed to me on a platter!!"
See, I can simplify your sides arguments into ridiculous sentences a pre-schooler could write too.
What the hell. I would agree if the items we were talking about were nothing more than fluff.
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me