What most people are forgetting is that mmorpg's are a timesink, nothing more. The whole sense of "achievement" is just a mindset in your head. No, it did not take skill to get your uber sword of awesomeness +8 and No, it did not take skill to get to the max level. It took time, nothing more.
Stamina is a skill. Endurance is a skill. Patience is a skill. Hard work is a skill. Perseverance is a skill.
Of course if daddy and mommy provide everything, one wouldn't know that.
What most people are forgetting is that mmorpg's are a timesink, nothing more. The whole sense of "achievement" is just a mindset in your head. No, it did not take skill to get your uber sword of awesomeness +8 and No, it did not take skill to get to the max level. It took time, nothing more.
Stamina is a skill. Endurance is a skill. Patience is a skill. Hard work is a skill. Perseverance is a skill.
Of course if daddy and mommy provide everything, one wouldn't know that.
So ass sores are a skill too?
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
What most people are forgetting is that mmorpg's are a timesink, nothing more. The whole sense of "achievement" is just a mindset in your head. No, it did not take skill to get your uber sword of awesomeness +8 and No, it did not take skill to get to the max level. It took time, nothing more.
Stamina is a skill. Endurance is a skill. Patience is a skill. Hard work is a skill. Perseverance is a skill.
Of course if daddy and mommy provide everything, one wouldn't know that.
I'm sure using your mouse while hitting keys 123 for 4 hours a day must have been a major accomplishment, right?
What most people are forgetting is that mmorpg's are a timesink, nothing more. The whole sense of "achievement" is just a mindset in your head. No, it did not take skill to get your uber sword of awesomeness +8 and No, it did not take skill to get to the max level. It took time, nothing more.
Stamina is a skill. Endurance is a skill. Patience is a skill. Hard work is a skill. Perseverance is a skill.
Of course if daddy and mommy provide everything, one wouldn't know that.
What most people are forgetting is that mmorpg's are a timesink, nothing more. The whole sense of "achievement" is just a mindset in your head. No, it did not take skill to get your uber sword of awesomeness +8 and No, it did not take skill to get to the max level. It took time, nothing more.
Stamina is a skill. Endurance is a skill. Patience is a skill. Hard work is a skill. Perseverance is a skill.
Of course if daddy and mommy provide everything, one wouldn't know that.
I'm sure using your mouse while hitting keys 123 for 4 hours a day must have been a major accomplishment, right?
Well, he's not exactly off.
I think people who seriously play games would like ot believe that it should just be about skill but there is that other factor of time invested as well dedication.
So to that point, if I climb Mt. Washington it takes no brains and no skill. I basically move my legs up and down until I get to the top and then come down again.
But not everyone can climb Mt. Washington. They might not have the endurance, physicality or dedication to do it. And you can't just run up it and run back down. It takes many hours.
So is climbing Mt. Washington an accomplishment? I think it is. Is it a worthwhile accomplishment? Only to those who value these things.
Same with games. Or at least online games. If someone values the hardcore time sink component (which exists) then it is a valuable part of playing that game. I actually quite Lineage 2 because they made it easier to level as I did value the time put in.
Does everyone value it? No. But we all don't play games for the same reasons nor do we value the same things.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
What most people are forgetting is that mmorpg's are a timesink, nothing more. The whole sense of "achievement" is just a mindset in your head. No, it did not take skill to get your uber sword of awesomeness +8 and No, it did not take skill to get to the max level. It took time, nothing more.
Stamina is a skill. Endurance is a skill. Patience is a skill. Hard work is a skill. Perseverance is a skill.
Of course if daddy and mommy provide everything, one wouldn't know that.
I'm sure using your mouse while hitting keys 123 for 4 hours a day must have been a major accomplishment, right?
Well, he's not exactly off.
I think people who seriously play games would like ot believe that it should just be about skill but there is that other factor of time invested as well dedication.
So to that point, if I climb Mt. Washington it takes no brains and no skill. I basically move my legs up and down until I get to the top and then come down again.
But not everyone can climb Mt. Washington. They might not have the endurance, physicality or dedication to do it. And you can't just run up it and run back down. It takes many hours.
So is climbing Mt. Washington an accomplishment? I think it is. Is it a worthwhile accomplishment? Only to those who value these things.
Same with games. Or at least online games. If someone values the hardcore time sink component (which exists) then it is a valuable part of playing that game. I actually quite Lineage 2 because they made it easier to level as I did value the time put in.
Does everyone value it? No. But we all don't play games for the same reasons nor do we value the same things.
But the thing is, we're nott alking about climbing Mt. Washington, nor are we talking about a sport, another thing some people like to compare it to. Playing an MMORPG takes no skill whatsoever, it doesn't ask anything of your intelligence, your logic, or your physical condition. Some people say it takes endurance but imo thats just a pretty way of saying it depends on how long you can do the same thing over and over again. That's hardly something I'd consider a worthy accomplishment, To me, thats the same as watching TV for long periods of time, not exactly something to be proud of. To me, saying you hit level 75 in Lineage 2 is the same as saying you watched all 3 Lord of the rings movies in a row.
Lets not forget that any form of RMT further reduces crafting to a second rate side show, and will completely destroy any form of player run economy, not that the current developers haven't tried enough to do this already.
I really don't care about item shops in free MMORPGs because the developers need a way to make money which they aren't making from subscriptions. Thats fine, and I simply won't play those games.
BUT, I am absolutely shocked that people are defending RMT for Pay to Play games. That is simply amazing, as ANY RMT in a pay to play game is simply a way for the developer to gauge more money out of the player base.
MMOs are a time sink. That isn't even a debate. It takes time and effort to progress, and it takes time and effort to make your character great. RMT completely negates and time and effort you put into the game.
So I must ask, if you want to just buy all of your gear, why play an MMO? If you don't think you have the time to put into it, then MMOs aren't for you, plain and simple. Many people are able to enjoy their MMOs while they play casually, if you can't, then find another genre.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
Lets not forget that any form of RMT further reduces crafting....
RMT != Microtransactions.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
With the latest development with SOE's SC and then Blizzard's $15 appearance change, one thing is for certain, MMOs are changing. I have seen a lot of outrage (at least on this site) and I ask what is the issue? I am not saying haters are right or wrong, but at the same time why is this such an issue among so many people? I understand that there may be a monthly fee already, but what is such a hassle that having people be able to buy things in game they otherwise wouldn't be able to obtain without sometimes godly time invested or otherwise. There are some pretty good pros to being able to RMT in games, such as the "normal" Joe who works a full week with a family and so forth can't afford the time to invest to get that oh so rare item. He spends more time working in real life life to earn that little extra cash and can afford to buy what others can spend in personal time to achieve. I see it actually somewhat balanced. I, like probably many people who have (and still do) play WoW have bought gold at least once. The way I saw it was I worked a few extra hours in a week of RL to buy something others will spend time in game to work for. Now it seems as if right now all these RMTs are novelty and I don't think anyone should be upset about an appearance change, or a different looking item. Givin time, I am sure these companies are going to get much deeper into the game like really usefull items and such, but I ask, if someone can invest in a game as much as someone can invest in thier job or otherwise be able to obtain the same status, why does it warrent such an outrage?
I spoke about this in another post. What Blizzard is doing is nothing in comparison to SOEs item shop. Let's get those details out here. Blizzard is giving you the option to change your character's name, gender stuff that is taken care of on their side which is why you have the extra fee. These are not items in a shop like EQ.
What Blizzard is doing is similar to a server transfer.
Lets not forget that any form of RMT further reduces crafting....
RMT != Microtransactions.
RMT = microtransactions
Both require spending real money for an ingame virtual feature or advantage. How is that not Real Money Trading? Smedley is a bullshit con artist liar. Believing his twisted definition is like believing this guy's:
Micropayments are used in some massively multiplayer online role-playing games (MMORPGs).[3] These are typically free to play games with no monthly fee, which offer players the possibility of purchasing in-game currency redeemable for items. These items are often more powerful than those that can be obtained by "free" players, or offer an advantage or feature otherwise unavailable. An example would be a set of armor more effective than that obtained from generic in-game vendors or enemies, or a potion that allows a character to earn more experience points per quest completed or enemy slain, thereby progressing faster than usual.
RMT is an abbreviation for:
Real-money trading, a type of virtual economy
A game's synthetic economy often results in interaction with a "real" economy; characters, spells, and items may be sold on online auction websites like eBay for real money. While many game developers, such as Blizzard (creator of World of Warcraft), prohibit the practice, it is common that goods and services within virtual economies will be sold on online auction sites and traded for real currencies.
According to standard conceptions of economic value (see the subjective theory of value), the goods and services of virtual economies do have a demonstrable value. Since players of these games are willing to substitute real economic resources of time and money (monthly fees) in exchange for these resources, by definition they have demonstrated utility to the user.
With the latest development with SOE's SC and then Blizzard's $15 appearance change, one thing is for certain, MMOs are changing. I have seen a lot of outrage (at least on this site) and I ask what is the issue? I am not saying haters are right or wrong, but at the same time why is this such an issue among so many people? I understand that there may be a monthly fee already, but what is such a hassle that having people be able to buy things in game they otherwise wouldn't be able to obtain without sometimes godly time invested or otherwise. There are some pretty good pros to being able to RMT in games, such as the "normal" Joe who works a full week with a family and so forth can't afford the time to invest to get that oh so rare item. He spends more time working in real life life to earn that little extra cash and can afford to buy what others can spend in personal time to achieve. I see it actually somewhat balanced. I, like probably many people who have (and still do) play WoW have bought gold at least once. The way I saw it was I worked a few extra hours in a week of RL to buy something others will spend time in game to work for. Now it seems as if right now all these RMTs are novelty and I don't think anyone should be upset about an appearance change, or a different looking item. Givin time, I am sure these companies are going to get much deeper into the game like really usefull items and such, but I ask, if someone can invest in a game as much as someone can invest in thier job or otherwise be able to obtain the same status, why does it warrent such an outrage?
I spoke about this in another post. What Blizzard is doing is nothing in comparison to SOEs item shop. Let's get those details out here. Blizzard is giving you the option to change your character's name, gender stuff that is taken care of on their side which is why you have the extra fee. These are not items in a shop like EQ.
What Blizzard is doing is similar to a server transfer.
Blizzard is testing the water with re-customisation.
If the user reaction is quiet and accepting of this, then they will jump in.
With the latest development with SOE's SC and then Blizzard's $15 appearance change, one thing is for certain, MMOs are changing. I have seen a lot of outrage (at least on this site) and I ask what is the issue? I am not saying haters are right or wrong, but at the same time why is this such an issue among so many people? I understand that there may be a monthly fee already, but what is such a hassle that having people be able to buy things in game they otherwise wouldn't be able to obtain without sometimes godly time invested or otherwise. There are some pretty good pros to being able to RMT in games, such as the "normal" Joe who works a full week with a family and so forth can't afford the time to invest to get that oh so rare item. He spends more time working in real life life to earn that little extra cash and can afford to buy what others can spend in personal time to achieve. I see it actually somewhat balanced. I, like probably many people who have (and still do) play WoW have bought gold at least once. The way I saw it was I worked a few extra hours in a week of RL to buy something others will spend time in game to work for. Now it seems as if right now all these RMTs are novelty and I don't think anyone should be upset about an appearance change, or a different looking item. Givin time, I am sure these companies are going to get much deeper into the game like really usefull items and such, but I ask, if someone can invest in a game as much as someone can invest in thier job or otherwise be able to obtain the same status, why does it warrent such an outrage?
I spoke about this in another post. What Blizzard is doing is nothing in comparison to SOEs item shop. Let's get those details out here. Blizzard is giving you the option to change your character's name, gender stuff that is taken care of on their side which is why you have the extra fee. These are not items in a shop like EQ.
What Blizzard is doing is similar to a server transfer.
Your reasoning makes no sense and does not justify charging to change a character's appearance. They allow you to change the character's hair FOR free, they let people change into little christmas gnomes FOR free, they change you into sheep or chickens etc FOR free. Essentially they're going "lets see if people fall for this then we can charge them for all sorts of stuff like character class respecs!"
Seriously if they can change your hair for free and give you items to change your appearance for FREE they can allow you to change your FULL Toon appearance for free as well. There is absolutely NO techincal reason regardless of client side or server side that they should be charging, they're simply charging because they can.
What most people are forgetting is that mmorpg's are a timesink, nothing more. The whole sense of "achievement" is just a mindset in your head. No, it did not take skill to get your uber sword of awesomeness +8 and No, it did not take skill to get to the max level. It took time, nothing more.
Stamina is a skill. Endurance is a skill. Patience is a skill. Hard work is a skill. Perseverance is a skill.
Of course if daddy and mommy provide everything, one wouldn't know that.
I'm sure using your mouse while hitting keys 123 for 4 hours a day must have been a major accomplishment, right?
So people who play cards online for money have no skill also according to your logic. They just sit on their butts and mash buttons. It must be pure luck that some win and others lose?
Remove money from the equation and the examples are the same. To be successful in a MMOG requires commitment and intelligence, perhaps social skills as well.
With the latest development with SOE's SC and then Blizzard's $15 appearance change, one thing is for certain, MMOs are changing. I have seen a lot of outrage (at least on this site) and I ask what is the issue? I am not saying haters are right or wrong, but at the same time why is this such an issue among so many people? I understand that there may be a monthly fee already, but what is such a hassle that having people be able to buy things in game they otherwise wouldn't be able to obtain without sometimes godly time invested or otherwise. There are some pretty good pros to being able to RMT in games, such as the "normal" Joe who works a full week with a family and so forth can't afford the time to invest to get that oh so rare item. He spends more time working in real life life to earn that little extra cash and can afford to buy what others can spend in personal time to achieve. I see it actually somewhat balanced. I, like probably many people who have (and still do) play WoW have bought gold at least once. The way I saw it was I worked a few extra hours in a week of RL to buy something others will spend time in game to work for. Now it seems as if right now all these RMTs are novelty and I don't think anyone should be upset about an appearance change, or a different looking item. Givin time, I am sure these companies are going to get much deeper into the game like really usefull items and such, but I ask, if someone can invest in a game as much as someone can invest in thier job or otherwise be able to obtain the same status, why does it warrent such an outrage?
I spoke about this in another post. What Blizzard is doing is nothing in comparison to SOEs item shop. Let's get those details out here. Blizzard is giving you the option to change your character's name, gender stuff that is taken care of on their side which is why you have the extra fee. These are not items in a shop like EQ.
What Blizzard is doing is similar to a server transfer.
Your reasoning makes no sense and does not justify charging to change a character's appearance. They allow you to change the character's hair FOR free, they let people change into little christmas gnomes FOR free, they change you into sheep or chickens etc FOR free. Essentially they're going "lets see if people fall for this then we can charge them for all sorts of stuff like character class respecs!"
Seriously if they can change your hair for free and give you items to change your appearance for FREE they can allow you to change your FULL Toon appearance for free as well. There is absolutely NO techincal reason regardless of client side or server side that they should be charging, they're simply charging because they can.
Again ... this is allowing changes for names and gender. These are account change request that has nothing to do with the game play. This is not selling items etc I can't be 100% sure because I have not used this service but I believe once you make your request out of game it goes to a live individual and they make these changes to your account for you thus the fee.
You may be right, they possibly could put these change options in game but I assume they want control over name changes and stuff of that nature.
The problem is people who up to know have been the "Power players" of MMOs would get displaced and so now they are whiny. College students, Single people, Teenagers, etc all players with more free time on their hands then money would all of a sudden find themselves not the best players in these games. All of a sudden more casual players with more money then free time would be equal across the board.
Sorry but the entire arguement about paying the same admission price makes everyone equal is false and a pathetic joke. All it does it create a new currency (amount of Free time) which is used to create "Uber characters".
Personally I could care less if this went into affect in most games. People say that the "Western Market" doesn't want RMT but that is a flat out lie. We want the illusion that we are all working for what we get but under the table billions are being spent on RMT transactions already. I hope Blizzard does something like this as well. It would put the "Gold farming industry" out of business and that would make the game playing more enjoyable.
a person using cash to buy items IN game that affect the balance of the game are not EQUAL they're people who have NO will and urge to EARN their way into a power status. I only play a few hours a week and accept that to get to where I want to be is going to take me longer than power gamers but the GOAL is Achievable. Circumventing the whole reason to play the game is utterly ridiculous and honestly I won't ever play with those sorts of people.
They're the lowest of the low they simply want to log on and epeen their way around with their wallet.
Anyone that PAYS to get their way to the Top has not Achieved anything and they are certaintly NOT gamers. THey're nothing but shallow players that want to go oOoh look at my Peen its so awsome and all I did was spend some cash. The whole point to powerful items in game is the right to go "I worked really damn hard for this and its awsome" and while it puts casuals in a position to want it they should be wanting to EARN it.
Just because a person is a casual gamer does NOT make him a RMT micro transaction target infact Power Players are JUST as guilty. RMT sees no lines of casual vs hardcore it sees Wallet Vs Achievers. Its really starting to get old to blame everything on casual players, casual players have exsisted since the begining of time only now there's casuals, hardcores, and lazy bitches with cash.
I for one will stay as an achiever and if I can't achieve the upper game without spending real cash then I certaintly wont be playing that game.
With the latest development with SOE's SC and then Blizzard's $15 appearance change, one thing is for certain, MMOs are changing. I have seen a lot of outrage (at least on this site) and I ask what is the issue? I am not saying haters are right or wrong, but at the same time why is this such an issue among so many people? I understand that there may be a monthly fee already, but what is such a hassle that having people be able to buy things in game they otherwise wouldn't be able to obtain without sometimes godly time invested or otherwise. There are some pretty good pros to being able to RMT in games, such as the "normal" Joe who works a full week with a family and so forth can't afford the time to invest to get that oh so rare item. He spends more time working in real life life to earn that little extra cash and can afford to buy what others can spend in personal time to achieve. I see it actually somewhat balanced. I, like probably many people who have (and still do) play WoW have bought gold at least once. The way I saw it was I worked a few extra hours in a week of RL to buy something others will spend time in game to work for. Now it seems as if right now all these RMTs are novelty and I don't think anyone should be upset about an appearance change, or a different looking item. Givin time, I am sure these companies are going to get much deeper into the game like really usefull items and such, but I ask, if someone can invest in a game as much as someone can invest in thier job or otherwise be able to obtain the same status, why does it warrent such an outrage?
I spoke about this in another post. What Blizzard is doing is nothing in comparison to SOEs item shop. Let's get those details out here. Blizzard is giving you the option to change your character's name, gender stuff that is taken care of on their side which is why you have the extra fee. These are not items in a shop like EQ.
What Blizzard is doing is similar to a server transfer.
Your reasoning makes no sense and does not justify charging to change a character's appearance. They allow you to change the character's hair FOR free, they let people change into little christmas gnomes FOR free, they change you into sheep or chickens etc FOR free. Essentially they're going "lets see if people fall for this then we can charge them for all sorts of stuff like character class respecs!"
Seriously if they can change your hair for free and give you items to change your appearance for FREE they can allow you to change your FULL Toon appearance for free as well. There is absolutely NO techincal reason regardless of client side or server side that they should be charging, they're simply charging because they can.
Again ... this is allowing changes for names and gender. These are account change request that has nothing to do with the game play. This is not selling items etc I can't be 100% sure because I have not used this service but I believe once you make your request out of game it goes to a live individual and they make these changes to your account for you thus the fee.
You may be right, they possibly could put these change options in game but I assume they want control over name changes and stuff of that nature.
I can see the charging for name changes other games do it..but charging for appearance changes is utterly ridiculous since its perfectly with in WoW's lore to have machines that can do it for free or a gold amount. Blizz is testing the water..next XP potions & buff potions or armor color changing instead of usign a dye system.
Lets not forget that any form of RMT further reduces crafting....
RMT != Microtransactions.
RMT = microtransactions
Both require spending real money for an ingame virtual feature or advantage. How is that not Real Money Trading? Smedley is a bullshit con artist liar. Believing his twisted definition is like believing this guy's:
Micropayments are used in some massively multiplayer online role-playing games (MMORPGs).[3] These are typically free to play games with no monthly fee, which offer players the possibility of purchasing in-game currency redeemable for items. These items are often more powerful than those that can be obtained by "free" players, or offer an advantage or feature otherwise unavailable. An example would be a set of armor more effective than that obtained from generic in-game vendors or enemies, or a potion that allows a character to earn more experience points per quest completed or enemy slain, thereby progressing faster than usual.
RMT is an abbreviation for:
Real-money trading, a type of virtual economy
A game's synthetic economy often results in interaction with a "real" economy; characters, spells, and items may be sold on online auction websites like eBay for real money. While many game developers, such as Blizzard (creator of World of Warcraft), prohibit the practice, it is common that goods and services within virtual economies will be sold on online auction sites and traded for real currencies.
According to standard conceptions of economic value (see the subjective theory of value), the goods and services of virtual economies do have a demonstrable value. Since players of these games are willing to substitute real economic resources of time and money (monthly fees) in exchange for these resources, by definition they have demonstrated utility to the user.
Thank you. Saved me some time and frustration from explaining things to people who speak before they understand.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
I agree and think we should call it RMT for more than semantics.
MMO companies all too eagerly distance themselves from gold sellers and account traders, although they have no shame in having close relations to gold sellers (see IGE and Yantis) and have no shame in hiring people from such sites to work for them to bring in RMT.
MMO companies should no longer be hiding behind RMT when they themselves have proven to be no better and just as eager to use the exact same dirty schemes.
I agree and think we should call it RMT for more than semantics. MMO companies all too eagerly distance themselves from gold sellers and account traders, although they have no shame in having close relations to gold sellers (see IGE and Yantis) and have no shame in hirering people from such sites to work for them to bring in RMT. MMO companies should no longer be hiding behind RMT when they themselves have proven to be no better and just as eager to use the exact same dirty schemes.
It's the old "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" argument.
Taking this back to the OP, don't think that Wizards of the cost were the first company to milk customers. TSR was making expansions, source books and new editions of rules long before CCGs. Games Workshop brought bilking customers to a whole new level with Warhammer miniatures. Warhammer not only had a $50 rule book, but also books specific to each faction, limited run miniatures and a magazine that updated the rules and added new unit stats monthly. And we can go even farther back than that to the time of Advanced Squad Leader and play by mail wargames that charged per turn.
Trying to get repeat profit from the same product is an old, old practice and didn't just begin with Magic: The Gathering.
i do not agree with RMT, that is not my reason for being in an uproar over this new model in Everquest II. my problem is to my understanding:
RMT is, pure and simple, the buying and selling of virtual items for real world dollars. Period. End of Statement. (as coined by someone else much more famous [or is that infamous] than i)
From Wikipedia:
Micropayments are used in some massively multiplayer online role-playing games. These are typically free to play games with no monthly fee, which offer players the possibility of purchasing in-game currency redeemable for items. These items are often more powerful than those that can be obtained by "free" players, or offer an advantage or feature otherwise unavailable. An example would be a set of armor more effective than that obtained from generic in-game vendors or enemies, or a potion that allows a character to earn more experience points per quest completed or enemy slain, thereby progressing faster than usual.
you can call it microtransactions or rmt or potato, they amount to the same thing .... real cash for virtual items.
Smed: We aren't going to be allowing RMT in any way, shape or form on the non-exchange enabled EQ II servers. Period. End of statement.
Lets not forget that any form of RMT further reduces crafting....
RMT != Microtransactions.
RMT = microtransactions
Both require spending real money for an ingame virtual feature or advantage. How is that not Real Money Trading? Smedley is a bullshit con artist liar. Believing his twisted definition is like believing this guy's:
Micropayments are used in some massively multiplayer online role-playing games (MMORPGs).[3] These are typically free to play games with no monthly fee, which offer players the possibility of purchasing in-game currency redeemable for items. These items are often more powerful than those that can be obtained by "free" players, or offer an advantage or feature otherwise unavailable. An example would be a set of armor more effective than that obtained from generic in-game vendors or enemies, or a potion that allows a character to earn more experience points per quest completed or enemy slain, thereby progressing faster than usual.
RMT is an abbreviation for:
Real-money trading, a type of virtual economy
A game's synthetic economy often results in interaction with a "real" economy; characters, spells, and items may be sold on online auction websites like eBay for real money. While many game developers, such as Blizzard (creator of World of Warcraft), prohibit the practice, it is common that goods and services within virtual economies will be sold on online auction sites and traded for real currencies.
According to standard conceptions of economic value (see the subjective theory of value), the goods and services of virtual economies do have a demonstrable value. Since players of these games are willing to substitute real economic resources of time and money (monthly fees) in exchange for these resources, by definition they have demonstrated utility to the user.
Ok, but what bloodworth is saying is that typically, people use the term rmt when it comes to buying resources for a game with real money that are not condoned by the game maker.
Whereas Micro transactions ARE condoned by the gamemaker and the game is designed with that in mind or the microtransactions are used to enhanced what is aleady there.
So in the minds of many players they are not the same, at least in spirit.
Going to "free to play asian game #511" and using the cash shop is not against the EULA.
Going to some secondary website and purchasing gold and powerlevels for any game that indicates they don't want you to do this IS against the EULA.
And as far as the gentleman who indicated that climbing MT. Washington was not the same as getting to the end game of a MMORPG, well that really is point of view.
OF COURSE it's not the same thing. But the inherrant value is quite subjective. I know numerous people who feel that actually climbing Mt. Washington (or any mountain for that matter) is a complete waste of time. Regardless of the physicality involved.
Just like most people out there in the non-gaming world would believe that getting to end-game (or even just playing any online game) is also a big waste of time.
That's sort of the point. It's all a big waste of time if viewed in the proper light. do you collect Hummels? Have every single one of them from "Accordian Boy" to "Zealous Xylophonist"? Well that's a big waste of time. And it takes no imagnation, physicality or skill to collect them. Just some money and staying on top of the releases.
But collecting all of them IS an accomplishment to some. There is a huge following for that stuff .
So just because someone doesn't value it doesn't mean that it isn't an accomplishment or doesn't have inherrant value to someone else.
Oh, and I thought this was funny...
"To me, saying you hit level 75 in Lineage 2 is the same as saying you watched all 3 Lord of the rings movies in a row."
Besides the fact that I got to lvl 78 in L2 before I quit (with subclass) my friends and I do watch all of the Lord of the rings movies in a row. We have a once per year thing that we go up to Maine and do this. Just done a few times of course.
The funny thing is that we have friends who think we are nuts and don't think one should subject themselves to such a grueling task.
Of course, we don't really think of this as a major accomplishment but in some ways it is an accomplishment as not everyone is willing to or sees the reason to do this.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Comments
Speechless. Totally speechless.
To think there's a reason why there's at least 2 gaming leagues out there for about every competitive game, and the dude asks "gamemanship"?
Nevermind, why there's leaderboards in even MMOs?
Let alone why there's even things like "top raiding guilds", or even the PvP player with the best kill streak?
...
MMOs are not a competitive sport game no matter how much you want them to be.
THERE IS NO SKILL INVLOVED IN MMO GAMES JUST TIME INVESTED.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Stamina is a skill. Endurance is a skill. Patience is a skill. Hard work is a skill. Perseverance is a skill.
Of course if daddy and mommy provide everything, one wouldn't know that.
Stamina is a skill. Endurance is a skill. Patience is a skill. Hard work is a skill. Perseverance is a skill.
Of course if daddy and mommy provide everything, one wouldn't know that.
So ass sores are a skill too?
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Stamina is a skill. Endurance is a skill. Patience is a skill. Hard work is a skill. Perseverance is a skill.
Of course if daddy and mommy provide everything, one wouldn't know that.
I'm sure using your mouse while hitting keys 123 for 4 hours a day must have been a major accomplishment, right?
Stamina is a skill. Endurance is a skill. Patience is a skill. Hard work is a skill. Perseverance is a skill.
Of course if daddy and mommy provide everything, one wouldn't know that.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Stamina is a skill. Endurance is a skill. Patience is a skill. Hard work is a skill. Perseverance is a skill.
Of course if daddy and mommy provide everything, one wouldn't know that.
I'm sure using your mouse while hitting keys 123 for 4 hours a day must have been a major accomplishment, right?
Well, he's not exactly off.
I think people who seriously play games would like ot believe that it should just be about skill but there is that other factor of time invested as well dedication.
So to that point, if I climb Mt. Washington it takes no brains and no skill. I basically move my legs up and down until I get to the top and then come down again.
But not everyone can climb Mt. Washington. They might not have the endurance, physicality or dedication to do it. And you can't just run up it and run back down. It takes many hours.
So is climbing Mt. Washington an accomplishment? I think it is. Is it a worthwhile accomplishment? Only to those who value these things.
Same with games. Or at least online games. If someone values the hardcore time sink component (which exists) then it is a valuable part of playing that game. I actually quite Lineage 2 because they made it easier to level as I did value the time put in.
Does everyone value it? No. But we all don't play games for the same reasons nor do we value the same things.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Stamina is a skill. Endurance is a skill. Patience is a skill. Hard work is a skill. Perseverance is a skill.
Of course if daddy and mommy provide everything, one wouldn't know that.
I'm sure using your mouse while hitting keys 123 for 4 hours a day must have been a major accomplishment, right?
Well, he's not exactly off.
I think people who seriously play games would like ot believe that it should just be about skill but there is that other factor of time invested as well dedication.
So to that point, if I climb Mt. Washington it takes no brains and no skill. I basically move my legs up and down until I get to the top and then come down again.
But not everyone can climb Mt. Washington. They might not have the endurance, physicality or dedication to do it. And you can't just run up it and run back down. It takes many hours.
So is climbing Mt. Washington an accomplishment? I think it is. Is it a worthwhile accomplishment? Only to those who value these things.
Same with games. Or at least online games. If someone values the hardcore time sink component (which exists) then it is a valuable part of playing that game. I actually quite Lineage 2 because they made it easier to level as I did value the time put in.
Does everyone value it? No. But we all don't play games for the same reasons nor do we value the same things.
But the thing is, we're nott alking about climbing Mt. Washington, nor are we talking about a sport, another thing some people like to compare it to. Playing an MMORPG takes no skill whatsoever, it doesn't ask anything of your intelligence, your logic, or your physical condition. Some people say it takes endurance but imo thats just a pretty way of saying it depends on how long you can do the same thing over and over again. That's hardly something I'd consider a worthy accomplishment, To me, thats the same as watching TV for long periods of time, not exactly something to be proud of. To me, saying you hit level 75 in Lineage 2 is the same as saying you watched all 3 Lord of the rings movies in a row.
Lets not forget that any form of RMT further reduces crafting to a second rate side show, and will completely destroy any form of player run economy, not that the current developers haven't tried enough to do this already.
I really don't care about item shops in free MMORPGs because the developers need a way to make money which they aren't making from subscriptions. Thats fine, and I simply won't play those games.
BUT, I am absolutely shocked that people are defending RMT for Pay to Play games. That is simply amazing, as ANY RMT in a pay to play game is simply a way for the developer to gauge more money out of the player base.
MMOs are a time sink. That isn't even a debate. It takes time and effort to progress, and it takes time and effort to make your character great. RMT completely negates and time and effort you put into the game.
So I must ask, if you want to just buy all of your gear, why play an MMO? If you don't think you have the time to put into it, then MMOs aren't for you, plain and simple. Many people are able to enjoy their MMOs while they play casually, if you can't, then find another genre.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
RMT != Microtransactions.
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
Speechless. Totally speechless.
To think there's a reason why there's at least 2 gaming leagues out there for about every competitive game, and the dude asks "gamemanship"?
Nevermind, why there's leaderboards in even MMOs?
Let alone why there's even things like "top raiding guilds", or even the PvP player with the best kill streak?
...
I would just give up if I was you buddy.
These guys think games have nothing to do with achievement or challange.
Honeslty, they would be better off taking up knitting in front of the telly, but what do I know right?
This hobby is so down the tubes it makes me sad.
I spoke about this in another post. What Blizzard is doing is nothing in comparison to SOEs item shop. Let's get those details out here. Blizzard is giving you the option to change your character's name, gender stuff that is taken care of on their side which is why you have the extra fee. These are not items in a shop like EQ.
What Blizzard is doing is similar to a server transfer.
RMT != Microtransactions.
RMT = microtransactions
Both require spending real money for an ingame virtual feature or advantage. How is that not Real Money Trading? Smedley is a bullshit con artist liar. Believing his twisted definition is like believing this guy's:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4XT-l-_3y0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClfpG2-1Bv4&feature=related
from Wiki:
[edit] In MMORPGs
Micropayments are used in some massively multiplayer online role-playing games (MMORPGs).[3] These are typically free to play games with no monthly fee, which offer players the possibility of purchasing in-game currency redeemable for items. These items are often more powerful than those that can be obtained by "free" players, or offer an advantage or feature otherwise unavailable. An example would be a set of armor more effective than that obtained from generic in-game vendors or enemies, or a potion that allows a character to earn more experience points per quest completed or enemy slain, thereby progressing faster than usual.
RMT is an abbreviation for:
Real-money trading, a type of virtual economy
A game's synthetic economy often results in interaction with a "real" economy; characters, spells, and items may be sold on online auction websites like eBay for real money. While many game developers, such as Blizzard (creator of World of Warcraft), prohibit the practice, it is common that goods and services within virtual economies will be sold on online auction sites and traded for real currencies.
According to standard conceptions of economic value (see the subjective theory of value), the goods and services of virtual economies do have a demonstrable value. Since players of these games are willing to substitute real economic resources of time and money (monthly fees) in exchange for these resources, by definition they have demonstrated utility to the user.
I spoke about this in another post. What Blizzard is doing is nothing in comparison to SOEs item shop. Let's get those details out here. Blizzard is giving you the option to change your character's name, gender stuff that is taken care of on their side which is why you have the extra fee. These are not items in a shop like EQ.
What Blizzard is doing is similar to a server transfer.
Blizzard is testing the water with re-customisation.
If the user reaction is quiet and accepting of this, then they will jump in.
I give it 6 months.
I spoke about this in another post. What Blizzard is doing is nothing in comparison to SOEs item shop. Let's get those details out here. Blizzard is giving you the option to change your character's name, gender stuff that is taken care of on their side which is why you have the extra fee. These are not items in a shop like EQ.
What Blizzard is doing is similar to a server transfer.
Your reasoning makes no sense and does not justify charging to change a character's appearance. They allow you to change the character's hair FOR free, they let people change into little christmas gnomes FOR free, they change you into sheep or chickens etc FOR free. Essentially they're going "lets see if people fall for this then we can charge them for all sorts of stuff like character class respecs!"
Seriously if they can change your hair for free and give you items to change your appearance for FREE they can allow you to change your FULL Toon appearance for free as well. There is absolutely NO techincal reason regardless of client side or server side that they should be charging, they're simply charging because they can.
Stamina is a skill. Endurance is a skill. Patience is a skill. Hard work is a skill. Perseverance is a skill.
Of course if daddy and mommy provide everything, one wouldn't know that.
I'm sure using your mouse while hitting keys 123 for 4 hours a day must have been a major accomplishment, right?
So people who play cards online for money have no skill also according to your logic. They just sit on their butts and mash buttons. It must be pure luck that some win and others lose?
Remove money from the equation and the examples are the same. To be successful in a MMOG requires commitment and intelligence, perhaps social skills as well.
I spoke about this in another post. What Blizzard is doing is nothing in comparison to SOEs item shop. Let's get those details out here. Blizzard is giving you the option to change your character's name, gender stuff that is taken care of on their side which is why you have the extra fee. These are not items in a shop like EQ.
What Blizzard is doing is similar to a server transfer.
Your reasoning makes no sense and does not justify charging to change a character's appearance. They allow you to change the character's hair FOR free, they let people change into little christmas gnomes FOR free, they change you into sheep or chickens etc FOR free. Essentially they're going "lets see if people fall for this then we can charge them for all sorts of stuff like character class respecs!"
Seriously if they can change your hair for free and give you items to change your appearance for FREE they can allow you to change your FULL Toon appearance for free as well. There is absolutely NO techincal reason regardless of client side or server side that they should be charging, they're simply charging because they can.
Again ... this is allowing changes for names and gender. These are account change request that has nothing to do with the game play. This is not selling items etc I can't be 100% sure because I have not used this service but I believe once you make your request out of game it goes to a live individual and they make these changes to your account for you thus the fee.
You may be right, they possibly could put these change options in game but I assume they want control over name changes and stuff of that nature.
a person using cash to buy items IN game that affect the balance of the game are not EQUAL they're people who have NO will and urge to EARN their way into a power status. I only play a few hours a week and accept that to get to where I want to be is going to take me longer than power gamers but the GOAL is Achievable. Circumventing the whole reason to play the game is utterly ridiculous and honestly I won't ever play with those sorts of people.
They're the lowest of the low they simply want to log on and epeen their way around with their wallet.
Anyone that PAYS to get their way to the Top has not Achieved anything and they are certaintly NOT gamers. THey're nothing but shallow players that want to go oOoh look at my Peen its so awsome and all I did was spend some cash. The whole point to powerful items in game is the right to go "I worked really damn hard for this and its awsome" and while it puts casuals in a position to want it they should be wanting to EARN it.
Just because a person is a casual gamer does NOT make him a RMT micro transaction target infact Power Players are JUST as guilty. RMT sees no lines of casual vs hardcore it sees Wallet Vs Achievers. Its really starting to get old to blame everything on casual players, casual players have exsisted since the begining of time only now there's casuals, hardcores, and lazy bitches with cash.
I for one will stay as an achiever and if I can't achieve the upper game without spending real cash then I certaintly wont be playing that game.
I spoke about this in another post. What Blizzard is doing is nothing in comparison to SOEs item shop. Let's get those details out here. Blizzard is giving you the option to change your character's name, gender stuff that is taken care of on their side which is why you have the extra fee. These are not items in a shop like EQ.
What Blizzard is doing is similar to a server transfer.
Your reasoning makes no sense and does not justify charging to change a character's appearance. They allow you to change the character's hair FOR free, they let people change into little christmas gnomes FOR free, they change you into sheep or chickens etc FOR free. Essentially they're going "lets see if people fall for this then we can charge them for all sorts of stuff like character class respecs!"
Seriously if they can change your hair for free and give you items to change your appearance for FREE they can allow you to change your FULL Toon appearance for free as well. There is absolutely NO techincal reason regardless of client side or server side that they should be charging, they're simply charging because they can.
Again ... this is allowing changes for names and gender. These are account change request that has nothing to do with the game play. This is not selling items etc I can't be 100% sure because I have not used this service but I believe once you make your request out of game it goes to a live individual and they make these changes to your account for you thus the fee.
You may be right, they possibly could put these change options in game but I assume they want control over name changes and stuff of that nature.
I can see the charging for name changes other games do it..but charging for appearance changes is utterly ridiculous since its perfectly with in WoW's lore to have machines that can do it for free or a gold amount. Blizz is testing the water..next XP potions & buff potions or armor color changing instead of usign a dye system.
RMT != Microtransactions.
RMT = microtransactions
Both require spending real money for an ingame virtual feature or advantage. How is that not Real Money Trading? Smedley is a bullshit con artist liar. Believing his twisted definition is like believing this guy's:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4XT-l-_3y0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClfpG2-1Bv4&feature=related
from Wiki:
[edit] In MMORPGs
Micropayments are used in some massively multiplayer online role-playing games (MMORPGs).[3] These are typically free to play games with no monthly fee, which offer players the possibility of purchasing in-game currency redeemable for items. These items are often more powerful than those that can be obtained by "free" players, or offer an advantage or feature otherwise unavailable. An example would be a set of armor more effective than that obtained from generic in-game vendors or enemies, or a potion that allows a character to earn more experience points per quest completed or enemy slain, thereby progressing faster than usual.
RMT is an abbreviation for:
Real-money trading, a type of virtual economy
A game's synthetic economy often results in interaction with a "real" economy; characters, spells, and items may be sold on online auction websites like eBay for real money. While many game developers, such as Blizzard (creator of World of Warcraft), prohibit the practice, it is common that goods and services within virtual economies will be sold on online auction sites and traded for real currencies.
According to standard conceptions of economic value (see the subjective theory of value), the goods and services of virtual economies do have a demonstrable value. Since players of these games are willing to substitute real economic resources of time and money (monthly fees) in exchange for these resources, by definition they have demonstrated utility to the user.
Thank you. Saved me some time and frustration from explaining things to people who speak before they understand.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
I agree and think we should call it RMT for more than semantics.
MMO companies all too eagerly distance themselves from gold sellers and account traders, although they have no shame in having close relations to gold sellers (see IGE and Yantis) and have no shame in hiring people from such sites to work for them to bring in RMT.
MMO companies should no longer be hiding behind RMT when they themselves have proven to be no better and just as eager to use the exact same dirty schemes.
It's the old "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" argument.
I didn't make this, based on EQ, it's appropriate nevertheless:
Taking this back to the OP, don't think that Wizards of the cost were the first company to milk customers. TSR was making expansions, source books and new editions of rules long before CCGs. Games Workshop brought bilking customers to a whole new level with Warhammer miniatures. Warhammer not only had a $50 rule book, but also books specific to each faction, limited run miniatures and a magazine that updated the rules and added new unit stats monthly. And we can go even farther back than that to the time of Advanced Squad Leader and play by mail wargames that charged per turn.
Trying to get repeat profit from the same product is an old, old practice and didn't just begin with Magic: The Gathering.
i do not agree with RMT, that is not my reason for being in an uproar over this new model in Everquest II. my problem is to my understanding:
RMT is, pure and simple, the buying and selling of virtual items for real world dollars. Period. End of Statement. (as coined by someone else much more famous [or is that infamous] than i)
From Wikipedia:
Micropayments are used in some massively multiplayer online role-playing games. These are typically free to play games with no monthly fee, which offer players the possibility of purchasing in-game currency redeemable for items. These items are often more powerful than those that can be obtained by "free" players, or offer an advantage or feature otherwise unavailable. An example would be a set of armor more effective than that obtained from generic in-game vendors or enemies, or a potion that allows a character to earn more experience points per quest completed or enemy slain, thereby progressing faster than usual.
you can call it microtransactions or rmt or potato, they amount to the same thing .... real cash for virtual items.
Smed: We aren't going to be allowing RMT in any way, shape or form on the non-exchange enabled EQ II servers. Period. End of statement.
link here: www.eq2flames.com/general-gameplay/16896-soe-licenses-3rd-party-rmt-company-game-virtual-property-sales-43.html posted 12-22-2007, 09:55 PM.
this appears to have changed.
that's my problem.
"We aren't going to ... Period. End of statement."
ya. ok. whatever.
but what do i know, i'm only a vanbois i'm told.
RMT != Microtransactions.
RMT = microtransactions
Both require spending real money for an ingame virtual feature or advantage. How is that not Real Money Trading? Smedley is a bullshit con artist liar. Believing his twisted definition is like believing this guy's:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4XT-l-_3y0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClfpG2-1Bv4&feature=related
from Wiki:
[edit] In MMORPGs
Micropayments are used in some massively multiplayer online role-playing games (MMORPGs).[3] These are typically free to play games with no monthly fee, which offer players the possibility of purchasing in-game currency redeemable for items. These items are often more powerful than those that can be obtained by "free" players, or offer an advantage or feature otherwise unavailable. An example would be a set of armor more effective than that obtained from generic in-game vendors or enemies, or a potion that allows a character to earn more experience points per quest completed or enemy slain, thereby progressing faster than usual.
RMT is an abbreviation for:
Real-money trading, a type of virtual economy
A game's synthetic economy often results in interaction with a "real" economy; characters, spells, and items may be sold on online auction websites like eBay for real money. While many game developers, such as Blizzard (creator of World of Warcraft), prohibit the practice, it is common that goods and services within virtual economies will be sold on online auction sites and traded for real currencies.
According to standard conceptions of economic value (see the subjective theory of value), the goods and services of virtual economies do have a demonstrable value. Since players of these games are willing to substitute real economic resources of time and money (monthly fees) in exchange for these resources, by definition they have demonstrated utility to the user.
Ok, but what bloodworth is saying is that typically, people use the term rmt when it comes to buying resources for a game with real money that are not condoned by the game maker.
Whereas Micro transactions ARE condoned by the gamemaker and the game is designed with that in mind or the microtransactions are used to enhanced what is aleady there.
So in the minds of many players they are not the same, at least in spirit.
Going to "free to play asian game #511" and using the cash shop is not against the EULA.
Going to some secondary website and purchasing gold and powerlevels for any game that indicates they don't want you to do this IS against the EULA.
And as far as the gentleman who indicated that climbing MT. Washington was not the same as getting to the end game of a MMORPG, well that really is point of view.
OF COURSE it's not the same thing. But the inherrant value is quite subjective. I know numerous people who feel that actually climbing Mt. Washington (or any mountain for that matter) is a complete waste of time. Regardless of the physicality involved.
Just like most people out there in the non-gaming world would believe that getting to end-game (or even just playing any online game) is also a big waste of time.
That's sort of the point. It's all a big waste of time if viewed in the proper light. do you collect Hummels? Have every single one of them from "Accordian Boy" to "Zealous Xylophonist"? Well that's a big waste of time. And it takes no imagnation, physicality or skill to collect them. Just some money and staying on top of the releases.
But collecting all of them IS an accomplishment to some. There is a huge following for that stuff .
So just because someone doesn't value it doesn't mean that it isn't an accomplishment or doesn't have inherrant value to someone else.
Oh, and I thought this was funny...
"To me, saying you hit level 75 in Lineage 2 is the same as saying you watched all 3 Lord of the rings movies in a row."
Besides the fact that I got to lvl 78 in L2 before I quit (with subclass) my friends and I do watch all of the Lord of the rings movies in a row. We have a once per year thing that we go up to Maine and do this. Just done a few times of course.
The funny thing is that we have friends who think we are nuts and don't think one should subject themselves to such a grueling task.
Of course, we don't really think of this as a major accomplishment but in some ways it is an accomplishment as not everyone is willing to or sees the reason to do this.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo