Stopped using Steam when one of their updates erased my saved password (and my luck, I didn't save it in the password keeper). Wasn't going through that run around to get a password sent back, and the copy+paste reply for assistance was enough to say, "adios".
At this rate, the only games I'll be playing is before 2006. The EULAs of new games stink, especially the one EA has tacked onto the newest D2D games. These publishers are treating gamers who even buy their games as thieves.
Blizzard changes their EULA's but none of you people bitch about that.
i would believe you if you quoted the eula part they changed, but atm all this is, is just random blizzard hate.
It's just to point out that the EULA gets updated and change for all mmorpgs out there and they casually make you constantly agree to it and blame you for not reading it each time they update it. SOE's asks you to agree to it each time you play and Blizzard's asks you to agree to it each time they update it.
You people just want to blame SOE for everything and thats not saying SOE are not blameless but all companies should make this more aware.
John there is a difference in updating an EULA to protect the game or reflect new features/rules that are added and trying to "disclose" your personal information to whomever SOE wants to. Lets not pretend that this is a similar situation.
SOE does not need to disclose personal information to private parties to help run this game. SOE is trying to change a one sided contract so that they can sell your personal information to whomever wants to buy it from them.
Trying to deflect this issue onto another company is just deceitful.
If you don't agree with the EULA then don't play the game because that's what it is there for but if you click agree and carry on playing then really it's your own fault if anything is to happen.
There are certain things that can be added to a EULA and certain things that cannot. It is a one way contract and in order for it to be enforcable both parties need to have bargaining power beyond normal expectations of what a EULA protects the companys property from. SOE can't for example put into the EULA that they can use your credit card to buy whatever they want with it and have any chance of standing up in court when they are charged with fraud.
Discussion of the points is important. SOE can't just slip in permission to sell your information in an cleverly disguised manner and the end user either has to like it or leave it and blaming the player for being at fault is lame. Beyond that is just shows how unethical this company is and their desperation to squeeze every last nickle out of their dwindling subscriber base at any cost.
I can not play the game and still have an opinion.
They have alot of Lawyers who look into stuff like this to make sure they can't be sued or anything so they obviously can.
link?
otherwise you're making a lot of assumptions about what soe has done prior to changing the eula and what they are allowed to do legally vs the rights of private citizens worldwide.
bush's administration doesn't have that much longer, and hopefully the government sponsored, widespread illegal wiretapping of U.S. citizens will end when that war criminal administration leaves office.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
honestly you are taking snippets out of context.....they are saying that they cannot guarantee that your comminucations (in game text, keyloggers, etc) will not be intercepted by third parties...nothing more....basically they are absolving themselves if you get hacked or if they someone thinks you are plotting something against the law, if contacted by the government, that they will be obligated to turn it over.
Here's the whole thing...honestly...you guys blew this WAAAAYY out of proportion
12. We cannot ensure that your private communications and other personally identifiable information will not be disclosed to third parties. For example, we may be forced to disclose information to the government or third parties under certain circumstances, or third parties may unlawfully intercept or access transmissions or private communications. Additionally, we can (and you authorize us to) disclose any information about you to private entities, law enforcement or other government officials as we, in our sole discretion, believe necessary or appropriate to investigate or resolve possible problems or inquiries. You agree that we may communicate with you via telephone, email and any similar technology for any purpose relating to the Game, the Software and any services or software which may in the future be provided by us or on our behalf. You expressly permit SOE to upload CPU, operating system, video card, sound card and memory information from your computer to analyze and optimize your Game experience, improve and maintain the Game and/or provide you with customer service. Furthermore, if you request any technical support, you consent to our remote accessing and review of the computer you load the Software onto for purposes of support and debugging. You may choose to visit www.everquest2.com, www.station.sony.com, or other SOE web sites if such web sites offer services such as an EverQuest II game-themed chat room or other services of interest to you. You are subject to the terms and conditions, privacy customs and policies of SOE while on such web sites and in connection with use of your Account and the Game, which terms and conditions, policies and customs are incorporated herein by this reference. Since we do not control other web sites and/or privacy policies of third parties, different rules may apply to their use or disclosure of the personal information you disclose to others. Solely for the purpose of patching and updating the Game and/or Software and ensuring the integrity of the Game, you hereby grant us permission to (i) upload Game-related file information and data from the Game directory and (ii) download Game files to you. You acknowledge that any and all character data is stored and is resident on our servers, and any and all communications that you make within the Game (including, but not limited to, messages solely directed at another player or group of players) traverse through our servers, may or may not be monitored by us or our agents, you have no expectation of privacy in any such communications and expressly consent to such monitoring of communications you send and receive. You acknowledge and agree that we may transfer Game and your Account information (including your personally identifiable information and personal data) to the United States or other countries or may share such information with our licensees and agents in connection with the Game
Except for certain information in your Account (discussed below), all transmissions by you to the System are not private. You acknowledge and agree that you have no expectation of privacy regarding communications you make in the Game, whether through private in-Game messaging, during chat, or in chat rooms. CCP representatives may monitor communications made by or received from you. You should not provide private information to any other player in the Game. CCP shall not be responsible for the consequences of any such disclosure by you.
You may encounter and converse with people who are rude, offensive, belligerent, and who may use indecent, obscene, and/or threatening or harassing language while playing the Game. You may report any instances of such behavior to CCP. CCP will investigate and take such measures as CCP, in its sole judgment, determines are reasonable under the circumstances. CCP does not guarantee that you will not encounter behavior of others that you may view as insulting, demeaning, offensive, threatening or harassing. You assume all risk associated with playing the Game, and CCP assumes no responsibility for the conduct of any other players, and shall not be liable to you or any other person for their conduct.
B. Personal Information
CCP does not guarantee that personal information transmitted to the System, including without limitation information in your Account, will not be disclosed to third parties. While CCP's aim is to keep your personal information confidential and CCP employs security measures to protect the System, third parties may unlawfully intercept transmissions or private communications, or access data within the System. Additionally, CCP may (and you hereby expressly authorize CCP to) disclose information about you to private entities, law enforcement or other government officials, as CCP, in its sole discretion, deems necessary or appropriate to investigate or resolve possible crimes or to respond to judicial, regulatory, agency or similar inquiries.
CCP may monitor usage of the System to gather statistical information that it may disclose to third parties. CCP may also contact you using the information you provided to, for example, provide technical support, respond to user inquiries, transmit questionnaires and offer products and services. You may also verify and update your Account information by logging into your Account through the account management page at https://secure.eve-online.com/login.asp.
B. WHEN THE GAME IS RUNNING, BLIZZARD MAY OBTAIN CERTAIN IDENTIFICATION INFORMATION ABOUT YOUR COMPUTER AND ITS OPERATING SYSTEM, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION YOUR HARD DRIVES, CENTRAL PROCESSING UNIT, IP ADDRESS(ES) AND OPERATING SYSTEM(S), FOR PURPOSES OF IMPROVING THE GAME AND/OR THE SERVICE, AND TO POLICE AND ENFORCE THE PROVISIONS OF THIS AGREEMENT AND THE EULA.
C. Blizzard may, with or without notice to you, disclose your Internet Protocol (IP) address(es), personal information, Chat logs, and other information about you and your activities: (a) in response to a request by law enforcement, a court order or other legal process; or (b) if Blizzard believes that doing so may protect your safety or the safety of others.
D. BLIZZARD MAY MONITOR, RECORD, REVIEW, MODIFY AND/OR DISCLOSE YOUR CHAT SESSIONS, WHETHER VOICE OR TEXT, WITHOUT NOTICE TO YOU, AND YOU HEREBY CONSENT TO SUCH MONITORING, RECORDING, REVIEW, MODIFICATION AND/OR DISCLOSURE. Additionally, you acknowledge that Blizzard is under no obligation to monitor Chat, and you engage in Chat at your own risk
honestly you are taking snippets out of context.....they are saying that they cannot guarantee that your comminucations (in game text, keyloggers, etc) will not be intercepted by third parties...nothing more....basically they are absolving themselves if you get hacked or if they someone thinks you are plotting something against the law, if contacted by the government, that they will be obligated to turn it over.
Here's the whole thing...honestly...you guys blew this WAAAAYY out of proportion <snip>
Are you really that naive?
Of course they will try to sugercoat it as much as they possibly can. Which worked perfectly against you.
well then we should be making similar threads in wow's forum, ccp's forum and lotro forums.....nope...dont see any over there. This is all the I hate soe propaganda machine running wild.
well then we should be making similar threads in wow's forum, ccp's forum and lotro forums.....nope...dont see any over there. This is all the I hate soe propaganda machine running wild.
The "I hate SOE propaganda machine" is fueled by SOE, and no one else.
Yes, there's a lot of SWG vets here, who seems unable to get over what happened years ago. But SOE's way to handle both their customers and their games, SWG earlier and EQ2 now, is fueling the hate. For me, it started with SO, the latest EQ2 expansion, which more or less destroyed the game for me. Then came RMT, which buried it completely (for me), which they said would never come on regular servers.
Increased station pass fee last year, that annoying card game (LON) which you're not able to forget when playing EQ2 because of their frequent ads ingame, the RMT recently, etc. All just proves that SOE cares about squeezing most money out of their customers, and dosn't give a rats ass about how they get it.
And now this.
There are reasons why SOE is the main target for gamers' hate atm. You have to be completely blind and/or ignorant if that's just a "propaganda machine running wild" for you.
i played swg since closed beta quit last year. They took it another direction i didn't like. I am not crying about it. I moved on, found other games to play, and am awaiting TOR. No point in crying over a video game. I started to dislike it, and i quit...simple as that.
Difference is, none of the ones you mentioned will sell the information they collect to any third parties outside of government agencies except SoE. What SoE say in their Eula is that whatever info they collect they can do with as they please, inside the law that is. It's a slippery slope though SoE is on now, as all personal information can be abused, and probably will be when SoE sell that info to some dishonest party, which will happen aswell.
I got no problem with Blizzard scanning my memory for hacks/cheats and other stuff like that when I play Blizzards games. I got no problem with CCP scanning my system setup and memory to optimize their game. I got no problem with Turbine collecting information about my gaming habits and they sharing NON-IDENTIFIABLE info with any third party. The keyword here is non-identifiable. That they use whatever info they collect for me to send me emails and adverts for their own products I got no problem with. I am afterall, a customer with them (well, I'm not, but bear with me) and they try to run a profitable business. Strange as it sound, you can do business and be honest at the same time
Bottom line is, whatever info SoE collect about you, they can, with their Eula in hand, sell to any third party that ask for that kind of info, be it mail spammers, advertising companies, random person on the street and so on. If you don't got a problem with that, then you deserve whatever shit coming your way. The legality of Eula as binding contract is a whole another matter, as they aint anymore binding than used tp.
i played swg since closed beta quit last year. They took it another direction i didn't like. I am not crying about it. I moved on, found other games to play, and am awaiting TOR. No point in crying over a video game. I started to dislike it, and i quit...simple as that.
No point in crying, but very important to attack those who do, and just as important to defend SOE.
I don't, but it's my choice to either trust them, or not when I read that. With that said, I've yet to recieve some mmo-related spam in my mailbox, except from the companies themselfes (those regularly we-invite-you-back-thingies they send out), and I've been mmo'ing for many years now. Started with Anarchy Online sometime in 2001 iirc. That tells my that all the info I've given out been kept inhouse and the companies I've released that kind of info to, have respected my privacy. That include all those companies you mentioned, even SoE. Allthough since last time I subbed to a SoE game, my address, email and even cc company is changed.
so you received spam from soe marketing partners? how the hell would you ever know? How do you know that some of your spam you are getting right now isnt related to another mmorpg you are playing? You dont, but would rather beleive every other mmo company are angels...talk about living in a fantasy world
well then we should be making similar threads in wow's forum, ccp's forum and lotro forums.....nope...dont see any over there. This is all the I hate soe propaganda machine running wild.
Nope. It's because no publisher to date (except maybe EA) that has messed up and trashed their own games as bad as SoE. They d-e-s-e-r-v-e the thrashing they're getting for P'Oing their own game population.
so you received spam from soe marketing partners? how the hell would you ever know? How do you know that some of your spam you are getting right now isnt related to another mmorpg you are playing? You dont, but would rather beleive every other mmo company are angels...talk about living in a fantasy world
Lol. I don't believe they are angels. How I know the spam I get now isn't related to any mmo is cause it's mostly some penis-enhancement thingie or how to attract the opposite sex via pheronomes or similar shit like that, most probably they got my email by mining some of the forums I've used and been stupid enough to make my email public. With that said, my hotmail email is searchable via hotmail themselfes, same with my email address from my isp. I haven't bothered to screen it cause I don't give a shit really. I didn't say I've recieved any SoE-related spam either, but with their new Eula the odds are that those who subscribe to them will get them.
You can try to justify SoE and their Eula as much as you want. Most people around here see SoE for what they are, and you're fighting a losing battle. Fact is their Eula is shitting on your privacy and rights as a consumer.
I am not justifying their EULA, i dont like it either, but i am not going to stop playing games, since EVERY mmorpg does it. I got absolutely nothing to hide, and i been playing these games since eq1, and have owned, and played, about 16 of the major mmos on the left, and each one of them has an eula or tos which says this, has for YEARS. But i find it extremely hypocritical that all of a sudden soe changes their eula to match EVERY other mmorpgs TOS/EULA and then theres an uproar, meanwhile its "acceptable" for all he other games. This is what i find rediculous....bend over for the other games, but not soe. Sheer hypocrisy, if you beleived this is truly wrong, take a stand against ALL the mmo companies which have this clause.
I just read it. You should have quoted the whole thing and not just parts. It's basically been altered so that if a legal authority (police, governmental agency etc) wants to get your info, they can without having to go through a judge. I don't see the harm in this.
The harm is in the "third party" or "private entity". The government is not a private entity.
True, it isn't. However, the people that gather their information are.
Sorry, but I won't be joining in burning SOE at the stake today
Got paid?
Yes.
SOE pay me to put a light spin their actions on a forum that is well known for its lynch mobs and hate campaigns.
we take pride in the quality of our Lynchings and hate campaigns
on a side not it is a little bit worrying (any change to a legal document is always dangerous for all concerned) but i can live with it.
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds -Solid non level based game -Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
I am not justifying their EULA, i dont like it either, but i am not going to stop playing games, since EVERY mmorpg does it. I got absolutely nothing to hide, and i been playing these games since eq1, and have owned, and played, about 16 of the major mmos on the left, and each one of them has an eula or tos which says this, has for YEARS. But i find it extremely hypocritical that all of a sudden soe changes their eula to match EVERY other mmorpgs TOS/EULA and then theres an uproar, meanwhile its "acceptable" for all he other games. This is what i find rediculous....bend over for the other games, but not soe. Sheer hypocrisy, if you beleived this is truly wrong, take a stand against ALL the mmo companies which have this clause.
Hypocritical?
Right back at you!
SOE gathers personal information, other companies doesn't. It's been a while since I actually read WoW's EULA after an update, but earlier they've been very clear about gathering NON-PERSONAL information.
The opposite of what SOE is doing.
Smed is satisfied, so expect a large Christmas bonus this year.
I am not justifying their EULA, i dont like it either, but i am not going to stop playing games, since EVERY mmorpg does it. I got absolutely nothing to hide, and i been playing these games since eq1, and have owned, and played, about 16 of the major mmos on the left, and each one of them has an eula or tos which says this, has for YEARS. But i find it extremely hypocritical that all of a sudden soe changes their eula to match EVERY other mmorpgs TOS/EULA and then theres an uproar, meanwhile its "acceptable" for all he other games. This is what i find rediculous....bend over for the other games, but not soe. Sheer hypocrisy, if you beleived this is truly wrong, take a stand against ALL the mmo companies which have this clause.
Hypocritical?
Right back at you!
SOE gathers personal information, other companies doesn't. It's been a while since I actually read WoW's EULA after an update, but earlier they've been very clear about gathering NON-PERSONAL information.
The opposite of what SOE is doing.
Smed is satisfied, so expect a large Christmas bonus this year.
More like 40 pieces of silver to the alt called Judas.
Update from December 2 2008. It was changed for their Cash Shop. But someone noticed they changed paragraph 12 too.
12: "We cannot ensure that your private communications and other personally identifiable information will not be disclosed to third parties. Additionally, we can (and you authorize us to) disclose any information about you to private entities. You expressly permit SOE to upload CPU, operating system, video card, sound card and memory information from your computer to analyze and optimize your Game experience, improve and maintain the Game and/or provide you with customer service. Furthermore, if you request any technical support, you consent to our remote accessing and review of the computer you load the Software onto for purposes of support and debugging."
The Whole un edited thing reads like this
12. We cannot ensure that your private communications and other personally identifiable information will not be disclosed to third parties. For example, we may be forced to disclose information to the government or third parties under certain circumstances, or third parties may unlawfully intercept or access transmissions or private communications. (So they are saying that if your talking in /t that there is a possiblity that you will be over heard and that the Comm if it carrys personal info that it could be gained by 3rd parties, so don't give out your credit card or SS over /tell)
Additionally, we can (and you authorize us to) disclose any information about you to private entities, law enforcement or other government officials as we, in our sole discretion, believe necessary or appropriate to investigate or resolve possible problems or inquiries. (So they can only disclose info if it is requested to resolve an investigation to Law officals or the Government)
You agree that we may communicate with you via telephone, email and any similar technology for any purpose relating to the Game, the Software and any services or software which may in the future be provided by us or on our behalf.
You expressly permit SOE to upload CPU, operating system, video card, sound card and memory information from your computer to analyze and optimize your Game experience, improve and maintain the Game and/or provide you with customer service. Furthermore, if you request any technical support, you consent to our remote accessing and review of the computer you load the Software onto for purposes of support and debugging. (this is the same as WOW)
You may choose to visit www.everquest2.com, www.station.sony.com, or other SOE web sites if such web sites offer services such as an EverQuest II game-themed chat room or other services of interest to you. You are subject to the terms and conditions, privacy customs and policies of SOE while on such web sites and in connection with use of your Account and the Game, which terms and conditions, policies and customs are incorporated herein by this reference. Since we do not control other web sites and/or privacy policies of third parties, different rules may apply to their use or disclosure of the personal information you disclose to others. Solely for the purpose of patching and updating the Game and/or Software and ensuring the integrity of the Game, you hereby grant us permission to (i) upload Game-related file information and data from the Game directory and (ii) download Game files to you. You acknowledge that any and all character data is stored and is resident on our servers, and any and all communications that you make within the Game (including, but not limited to, messages solely directed at another player or group of players) traverse through our servers, may or may not be monitored by us or our agents, you have no expectation of privacy in any such communications and expressly consent to such monitoring of communications you send and receive. You acknowledge and agree that we may transfer Game and your Account information (including your personally identifiable information and personal data) to the United States or other countries or may share such information with our licensees and agents in connection with the Game.
When you read the whole thing, it does'nt sound so bad, in fact it looks more like SoE covering it ass that if some idiot decided to give up there SS and Credit card over tells and someone else hears it that they are not responsible, sounds like common sense to me, I would want to cover my ass from morons as well.
The Tech support thing is common in ALL MMO's so not such a big deal really.
Update from December 2 2008. It was changed for their Cash Shop. But someone noticed they changed paragraph 12 too.
12: "We cannot ensure that your private communications and other personally identifiable information will not be disclosed to third parties. Additionally, we can (and you authorize us to) disclose any information about you to private entities. You expressly permit SOE to upload CPU, operating system, video card, sound card and memory information from your computer to analyze and optimize your Game experience, improve and maintain the Game and/or provide you with customer service. Furthermore, if you request any technical support, you consent to our remote accessing and review of the computer you load the Software onto for purposes of support and debugging."
The Whole un edited thing reads like this
12. We cannot ensure that your private communications and other personally identifiable information will not be disclosed to third parties. For example, we may be forced to disclose information to the government or third parties under certain circumstances, or third parties may unlawfully intercept or access transmissions or private communications. (So they are saying that if your talking in /t that there is a possiblity that you will be over heard and that the Comm if it carrys personal info that it could be gained by 3rd parties, so don't give out your credit card or SS over /tell)
Additionally, we can (and you authorize us to) disclose any information about you to private entities, law enforcement or other government officials as we, in our sole discretion, believe necessary or appropriate to investigate or resolve possible problems or inquiries. (So they can only disclose info if it is requested to resolve an investigation to Law officals or the Government)
You agree that we may communicate with you via telephone, email and any similar technology for any purpose relating to the Game, the Software and any services or software which may in the future be provided by us or on our behalf.
You expressly permit SOE to upload CPU, operating system, video card, sound card and memory information from your computer to analyze and optimize your Game experience, improve and maintain the Game and/or provide you with customer service. Furthermore, if you request any technical support, you consent to our remote accessing and review of the computer you load the Software onto for purposes of support and debugging. (this is the same as WOW)
You may choose to visit www.everquest2.com, www.station.sony.com, or other SOE web sites if such web sites offer services such as an EverQuest II game-themed chat room or other services of interest to you. You are subject to the terms and conditions, privacy customs and policies of SOE while on such web sites and in connection with use of your Account and the Game, which terms and conditions, policies and customs are incorporated herein by this reference. Since we do not control other web sites and/or privacy policies of third parties, different rules may apply to their use or disclosure of the personal information you disclose to others. Solely for the purpose of patching and updating the Game and/or Software and ensuring the integrity of the Game, you hereby grant us permission to (i) upload Game-related file information and data from the Game directory and (ii) download Game files to you. You acknowledge that any and all character data is stored and is resident on our servers, and any and all communications that you make within the Game (including, but not limited to, messages solely directed at another player or group of players) traverse through our servers, may or may not be monitored by us or our agents, you have no expectation of privacy in any such communications and expressly consent to such monitoring of communications you send and receive. You acknowledge and agree that we may transfer Game and your Account information (including your personally identifiable information and personal data) to the United States or other countries or may share such information with our licensees and agents in connection with the Game.
When you read the whole thing, it does'nt sound so bad, in fact it looks more like SoE covering it ass that if some idiot decided to give up there SS and Credit card over tells and someone else hears it that they are not responsible, sounds like common sense to me, I would want to cover my ass from morons as well.
The Tech support thing is common in ALL MMO's so not such a big deal really.
The change in the policy is really the only barrier preventing me from resubbing to Vanguard.
Most of these are not enforced for a variety of reasons, the problem is that the harm is already done: disclosure of information that you otherwise reasonably believe is kept private. Everything in the EULA would be interpreted against the drafter (SOE) in these grossly and heavily one-sided "contracts."
SOE, for some reason, does not like, or respect, or protect the privacy of its customers.
Soon SOE will find itself with limited customers to abuse.
Comments
---By the my authority as King of the World, King of Kings and a god, all you assets are seized and taken into humanity for a greater good---
Stopped using Steam when one of their updates erased my saved password (and my luck, I didn't save it in the password keeper). Wasn't going through that run around to get a password sent back, and the copy+paste reply for assistance was enough to say, "adios".
At this rate, the only games I'll be playing is before 2006. The EULAs of new games stink, especially the one EA has tacked onto the newest D2D games. These publishers are treating gamers who even buy their games as thieves.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
i would believe you if you quoted the eula part they changed, but atm all this is, is just random blizzard hate.
It's just to point out that the EULA gets updated and change for all mmorpgs out there and they casually make you constantly agree to it and blame you for not reading it each time they update it. SOE's asks you to agree to it each time you play and Blizzard's asks you to agree to it each time they update it.
You people just want to blame SOE for everything and thats not saying SOE are not blameless but all companies should make this more aware.
John there is a difference in updating an EULA to protect the game or reflect new features/rules that are added and trying to "disclose" your personal information to whomever SOE wants to. Lets not pretend that this is a similar situation.
SOE does not need to disclose personal information to private parties to help run this game. SOE is trying to change a one sided contract so that they can sell your personal information to whomever wants to buy it from them.
Trying to deflect this issue onto another company is just deceitful.
If you don't agree with the EULA then don't play the game because that's what it is there for but if you click agree and carry on playing then really it's your own fault if anything is to happen.
There are certain things that can be added to a EULA and certain things that cannot. It is a one way contract and in order for it to be enforcable both parties need to have bargaining power beyond normal expectations of what a EULA protects the companys property from. SOE can't for example put into the EULA that they can use your credit card to buy whatever they want with it and have any chance of standing up in court when they are charged with fraud.
Discussion of the points is important. SOE can't just slip in permission to sell your information in an cleverly disguised manner and the end user either has to like it or leave it and blaming the player for being at fault is lame. Beyond that is just shows how unethical this company is and their desperation to squeeze every last nickle out of their dwindling subscriber base at any cost.
I can not play the game and still have an opinion.
They have alot of Lawyers who look into stuff like this to make sure they can't be sued or anything so they obviously can.
link?
otherwise you're making a lot of assumptions about what soe has done prior to changing the eula and what they are allowed to do legally vs the rights of private citizens worldwide.
bush's administration doesn't have that much longer, and hopefully the government sponsored, widespread illegal wiretapping of U.S. citizens will end when that war criminal administration leaves office.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
honestly you are taking snippets out of context.....they are saying that they cannot guarantee that your comminucations (in game text, keyloggers, etc) will not be intercepted by third parties...nothing more....basically they are absolving themselves if you get hacked or if they someone thinks you are plotting something against the law, if contacted by the government, that they will be obligated to turn it over.
Here's the whole thing...honestly...you guys blew this WAAAAYY out of proportion
12. We cannot ensure that your private communications and other personally identifiable information will not be disclosed to third parties. For example, we may be forced to disclose information to the government or third parties under certain circumstances, or third parties may unlawfully intercept or access transmissions or private communications. Additionally, we can (and you authorize us to) disclose any information about you to private entities, law enforcement or other government officials as we, in our sole discretion, believe necessary or appropriate to investigate or resolve possible problems or inquiries. You agree that we may communicate with you via telephone, email and any similar technology for any purpose relating to the Game, the Software and any services or software which may in the future be provided by us or on our behalf. You expressly permit SOE to upload CPU, operating system, video card, sound card and memory information from your computer to analyze and optimize your Game experience, improve and maintain the Game and/or provide you with customer service. Furthermore, if you request any technical support, you consent to our remote accessing and review of the computer you load the Software onto for purposes of support and debugging. You may choose to visit www.everquest2.com, www.station.sony.com, or other SOE web sites if such web sites offer services such as an EverQuest II game-themed chat room or other services of interest to you. You are subject to the terms and conditions, privacy customs and policies of SOE while on such web sites and in connection with use of your Account and the Game, which terms and conditions, policies and customs are incorporated herein by this reference. Since we do not control other web sites and/or privacy policies of third parties, different rules may apply to their use or disclosure of the personal information you disclose to others. Solely for the purpose of patching and updating the Game and/or Software and ensuring the integrity of the Game, you hereby grant us permission to (i) upload Game-related file information and data from the Game directory and (ii) download Game files to you. You acknowledge that any and all character data is stored and is resident on our servers, and any and all communications that you make within the Game (including, but not limited to, messages solely directed at another player or group of players) traverse through our servers, may or may not be monitored by us or our agents, you have no expectation of privacy in any such communications and expressly consent to such monitoring of communications you send and receive. You acknowledge and agree that we may transfer Game and your Account information (including your personally identifiable information and personal data) to the United States or other countries or may share such information with our licensees and agents in connection with the Game
and you are wrong, all games do this
Turbine has 5 paragraphs which say they will share your information, well pretty much with anyone
www.turbine.com/news/58
CCP does it as well....
www.eve-online.com/pnp/eula.asp
# PRIVACY AND CONFIDENTIALITY
A. Communications
Except for certain information in your Account (discussed below), all transmissions by you to the System are not private. You acknowledge and agree that you have no expectation of privacy regarding communications you make in the Game, whether through private in-Game messaging, during chat, or in chat rooms. CCP representatives may monitor communications made by or received from you. You should not provide private information to any other player in the Game. CCP shall not be responsible for the consequences of any such disclosure by you.
You may encounter and converse with people who are rude, offensive, belligerent, and who may use indecent, obscene, and/or threatening or harassing language while playing the Game. You may report any instances of such behavior to CCP. CCP will investigate and take such measures as CCP, in its sole judgment, determines are reasonable under the circumstances. CCP does not guarantee that you will not encounter behavior of others that you may view as insulting, demeaning, offensive, threatening or harassing. You assume all risk associated with playing the Game, and CCP assumes no responsibility for the conduct of any other players, and shall not be liable to you or any other person for their conduct.
B. Personal Information
CCP does not guarantee that personal information transmitted to the System, including without limitation information in your Account, will not be disclosed to third parties. While CCP's aim is to keep your personal information confidential and CCP employs security measures to protect the System, third parties may unlawfully intercept transmissions or private communications, or access data within the System. Additionally, CCP may (and you hereby expressly authorize CCP to) disclose information about you to private entities, law enforcement or other government officials, as CCP, in its sole discretion, deems necessary or appropriate to investigate or resolve possible crimes or to respond to judicial, regulatory, agency or similar inquiries.
CCP may monitor usage of the System to gather statistical information that it may disclose to third parties. CCP may also contact you using the information you provided to, for example, provide technical support, respond to user inquiries, transmit questionnaires and offer products and services. You may also verify and update your Account information by logging into your Account through the account management page at https://secure.eve-online.com/login.asp.
WOW.....wow they do it too!!!
www.worldofwarcraft.com/legal/termsofuse.shtml
B. WHEN THE GAME IS RUNNING, BLIZZARD MAY OBTAIN CERTAIN IDENTIFICATION INFORMATION ABOUT YOUR COMPUTER AND ITS OPERATING SYSTEM, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION YOUR HARD DRIVES, CENTRAL PROCESSING UNIT, IP ADDRESS(ES) AND OPERATING SYSTEM(S), FOR PURPOSES OF IMPROVING THE GAME AND/OR THE SERVICE, AND TO POLICE AND ENFORCE THE PROVISIONS OF THIS AGREEMENT AND THE EULA.
C. Blizzard may, with or without notice to you, disclose your Internet Protocol (IP) address(es), personal information, Chat logs, and other information about you and your activities: (a) in response to a request by law enforcement, a court order or other legal process; or (b) if Blizzard believes that doing so may protect your safety or the safety of others.
D. BLIZZARD MAY MONITOR, RECORD, REVIEW, MODIFY AND/OR DISCLOSE YOUR CHAT SESSIONS, WHETHER VOICE OR TEXT, WITHOUT NOTICE TO YOU, AND YOU HEREBY CONSENT TO SUCH MONITORING, RECORDING, REVIEW, MODIFICATION AND/OR DISCLOSURE. Additionally, you acknowledge that Blizzard is under no obligation to monitor Chat, and you engage in Chat at your own risk
Are you really that naive?
Of course they will try to sugercoat it as much as they possibly can. Which worked perfectly against you.
well then we should be making similar threads in wow's forum, ccp's forum and lotro forums.....nope...dont see any over there. This is all the I hate soe propaganda machine running wild.
The "I hate SOE propaganda machine" is fueled by SOE, and no one else.
Yes, there's a lot of SWG vets here, who seems unable to get over what happened years ago. But SOE's way to handle both their customers and their games, SWG earlier and EQ2 now, is fueling the hate. For me, it started with SO, the latest EQ2 expansion, which more or less destroyed the game for me. Then came RMT, which buried it completely (for me), which they said would never come on regular servers.
Increased station pass fee last year, that annoying card game (LON) which you're not able to forget when playing EQ2 because of their frequent ads ingame, the RMT recently, etc. All just proves that SOE cares about squeezing most money out of their customers, and dosn't give a rats ass about how they get it.
And now this.
There are reasons why SOE is the main target for gamers' hate atm. You have to be completely blind and/or ignorant if that's just a "propaganda machine running wild" for you.
i played swg since closed beta quit last year. They took it another direction i didn't like. I am not crying about it. I moved on, found other games to play, and am awaiting TOR. No point in crying over a video game. I started to dislike it, and i quit...simple as that.
Difference is, none of the ones you mentioned will sell the information they collect to any third parties outside of government agencies except SoE. What SoE say in their Eula is that whatever info they collect they can do with as they please, inside the law that is. It's a slippery slope though SoE is on now, as all personal information can be abused, and probably will be when SoE sell that info to some dishonest party, which will happen aswell.
I got no problem with Blizzard scanning my memory for hacks/cheats and other stuff like that when I play Blizzards games. I got no problem with CCP scanning my system setup and memory to optimize their game. I got no problem with Turbine collecting information about my gaming habits and they sharing NON-IDENTIFIABLE info with any third party. The keyword here is non-identifiable. That they use whatever info they collect for me to send me emails and adverts for their own products I got no problem with. I am afterall, a customer with them (well, I'm not, but bear with me) and they try to run a profitable business. Strange as it sound, you can do business and be honest at the same time
Bottom line is, whatever info SoE collect about you, they can, with their Eula in hand, sell to any third party that ask for that kind of info, be it mail spammers, advertising companies, random person on the street and so on. If you don't got a problem with that, then you deserve whatever shit coming your way. The legality of Eula as binding contract is a whole another matter, as they aint anymore binding than used tp.
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Grammar nazi's. This one is for you.
and when other companies say "partners" how do you know its not like a marketing partner?
No point in crying, but very important to attack those who do, and just as important to defend SOE.
I don't, but it's my choice to either trust them, or not when I read that. With that said, I've yet to recieve some mmo-related spam in my mailbox, except from the companies themselfes (those regularly we-invite-you-back-thingies they send out), and I've been mmo'ing for many years now. Started with Anarchy Online sometime in 2001 iirc. That tells my that all the info I've given out been kept inhouse and the companies I've released that kind of info to, have respected my privacy. That include all those companies you mentioned, even SoE. Allthough since last time I subbed to a SoE game, my address, email and even cc company is changed.
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Grammar nazi's. This one is for you.
so you received spam from soe marketing partners? how the hell would you ever know? How do you know that some of your spam you are getting right now isnt related to another mmorpg you are playing? You dont, but would rather beleive every other mmo company are angels...talk about living in a fantasy world
Nope. It's because no publisher to date (except maybe EA) that has messed up and trashed their own games as bad as SoE. They d-e-s-e-r-v-e the thrashing they're getting for P'Oing their own game population.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Lol. I don't believe they are angels. How I know the spam I get now isn't related to any mmo is cause it's mostly some penis-enhancement thingie or how to attract the opposite sex via pheronomes or similar shit like that, most probably they got my email by mining some of the forums I've used and been stupid enough to make my email public. With that said, my hotmail email is searchable via hotmail themselfes, same with my email address from my isp. I haven't bothered to screen it cause I don't give a shit really. I didn't say I've recieved any SoE-related spam either, but with their new Eula the odds are that those who subscribe to them will get them.
You can try to justify SoE and their Eula as much as you want. Most people around here see SoE for what they are, and you're fighting a losing battle. Fact is their Eula is shitting on your privacy and rights as a consumer.
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Grammar nazi's. This one is for you.
I am not justifying their EULA, i dont like it either, but i am not going to stop playing games, since EVERY mmorpg does it. I got absolutely nothing to hide, and i been playing these games since eq1, and have owned, and played, about 16 of the major mmos on the left, and each one of them has an eula or tos which says this, has for YEARS. But i find it extremely hypocritical that all of a sudden soe changes their eula to match EVERY other mmorpgs TOS/EULA and then theres an uproar, meanwhile its "acceptable" for all he other games. This is what i find rediculous....bend over for the other games, but not soe. Sheer hypocrisy, if you beleived this is truly wrong, take a stand against ALL the mmo companies which have this clause.
The harm is in the "third party" or "private entity". The government is not a private entity.
True, it isn't. However, the people that gather their information are.
Sorry, but I won't be joining in burning SOE at the stake today
Got paid?
Yes.
SOE pay me to put a light spin their actions on a forum that is well known for its lynch mobs and hate campaigns.
we take pride in the quality of our Lynchings and hate campaigns
on a side not it is a little bit worrying (any change to a legal document is always dangerous for all concerned) but i can live with it.
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds
-Solid non level based game
-Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
Hypocritical?
Right back at you!
SOE gathers personal information, other companies doesn't. It's been a while since I actually read WoW's EULA after an update, but earlier they've been very clear about gathering NON-PERSONAL information.
The opposite of what SOE is doing.
Smed is satisfied, so expect a large Christmas bonus this year.
did you read the tos/eula's i posted from other companies, they also collect personal information, even from your hd
here so you can find it easier
www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/2525260#2525260
Hypocritical?
Right back at you!
SOE gathers personal information, other companies doesn't. It's been a while since I actually read WoW's EULA after an update, but earlier they've been very clear about gathering NON-PERSONAL information.
The opposite of what SOE is doing.
Smed is satisfied, so expect a large Christmas bonus this year.
More like 40 pieces of silver to the alt called Judas.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Aside from maybe Eve online which is a company that has had its own ethics issues, you were wrong about every one of the EULAs you posted.
The Whole un edited thing reads like this
12. We cannot ensure that your private communications and other personally identifiable information will not be disclosed to third parties. For example, we may be forced to disclose information to the government or third parties under certain circumstances, or third parties may unlawfully intercept or access transmissions or private communications. (So they are saying that if your talking in /t that there is a possiblity that you will be over heard and that the Comm if it carrys personal info that it could be gained by 3rd parties, so don't give out your credit card or SS over /tell)
Additionally, we can (and you authorize us to) disclose any information about you to private entities, law enforcement or other government officials as we, in our sole discretion, believe necessary or appropriate to investigate or resolve possible problems or inquiries. (So they can only disclose info if it is requested to resolve an investigation to Law officals or the Government)
You agree that we may communicate with you via telephone, email and any similar technology for any purpose relating to the Game, the Software and any services or software which may in the future be provided by us or on our behalf.
You expressly permit SOE to upload CPU, operating system, video card, sound card and memory information from your computer to analyze and optimize your Game experience, improve and maintain the Game and/or provide you with customer service. Furthermore, if you request any technical support, you consent to our remote accessing and review of the computer you load the Software onto for purposes of support and debugging. (this is the same as WOW)
You may choose to visit www.everquest2.com, www.station.sony.com, or other SOE web sites if such web sites offer services such as an EverQuest II game-themed chat room or other services of interest to you. You are subject to the terms and conditions, privacy customs and policies of SOE while on such web sites and in connection with use of your Account and the Game, which terms and conditions, policies and customs are incorporated herein by this reference. Since we do not control other web sites and/or privacy policies of third parties, different rules may apply to their use or disclosure of the personal information you disclose to others. Solely for the purpose of patching and updating the Game and/or Software and ensuring the integrity of the Game, you hereby grant us permission to (i) upload Game-related file information and data from the Game directory and (ii) download Game files to you. You acknowledge that any and all character data is stored and is resident on our servers, and any and all communications that you make within the Game (including, but not limited to, messages solely directed at another player or group of players) traverse through our servers, may or may not be monitored by us or our agents, you have no expectation of privacy in any such communications and expressly consent to such monitoring of communications you send and receive. You acknowledge and agree that we may transfer Game and your Account information (including your personally identifiable information and personal data) to the United States or other countries or may share such information with our licensees and agents in connection with the Game.
When you read the whole thing, it does'nt sound so bad, in fact it looks more like SoE covering it ass that if some idiot decided to give up there SS and Credit card over tells and someone else hears it that they are not responsible, sounds like common sense to me, I would want to cover my ass from morons as well.
The Tech support thing is common in ALL MMO's so not such a big deal really.
The Whole un edited thing reads like this
12. We cannot ensure that your private communications and other personally identifiable information will not be disclosed to third parties. For example, we may be forced to disclose information to the government or third parties under certain circumstances, or third parties may unlawfully intercept or access transmissions or private communications. (So they are saying that if your talking in /t that there is a possiblity that you will be over heard and that the Comm if it carrys personal info that it could be gained by 3rd parties, so don't give out your credit card or SS over /tell)
Additionally, we can (and you authorize us to) disclose any information about you to private entities, law enforcement or other government officials as we, in our sole discretion, believe necessary or appropriate to investigate or resolve possible problems or inquiries. (So they can only disclose info if it is requested to resolve an investigation to Law officals or the Government)
You agree that we may communicate with you via telephone, email and any similar technology for any purpose relating to the Game, the Software and any services or software which may in the future be provided by us or on our behalf.
You expressly permit SOE to upload CPU, operating system, video card, sound card and memory information from your computer to analyze and optimize your Game experience, improve and maintain the Game and/or provide you with customer service. Furthermore, if you request any technical support, you consent to our remote accessing and review of the computer you load the Software onto for purposes of support and debugging. (this is the same as WOW)
You may choose to visit www.everquest2.com, www.station.sony.com, or other SOE web sites if such web sites offer services such as an EverQuest II game-themed chat room or other services of interest to you. You are subject to the terms and conditions, privacy customs and policies of SOE while on such web sites and in connection with use of your Account and the Game, which terms and conditions, policies and customs are incorporated herein by this reference. Since we do not control other web sites and/or privacy policies of third parties, different rules may apply to their use or disclosure of the personal information you disclose to others. Solely for the purpose of patching and updating the Game and/or Software and ensuring the integrity of the Game, you hereby grant us permission to (i) upload Game-related file information and data from the Game directory and (ii) download Game files to you. You acknowledge that any and all character data is stored and is resident on our servers, and any and all communications that you make within the Game (including, but not limited to, messages solely directed at another player or group of players) traverse through our servers, may or may not be monitored by us or our agents, you have no expectation of privacy in any such communications and expressly consent to such monitoring of communications you send and receive. You acknowledge and agree that we may transfer Game and your Account information (including your personally identifiable information and personal data) to the United States or other countries or may share such information with our licensees and agents in connection with the Game.
When you read the whole thing, it does'nt sound so bad, in fact it looks more like SoE covering it ass that if some idiot decided to give up there SS and Credit card over tells and someone else hears it that they are not responsible, sounds like common sense to me, I would want to cover my ass from morons as well.
The Tech support thing is common in ALL MMO's so not such a big deal really.
exactly
The change in the policy is really the only barrier preventing me from resubbing to Vanguard.
Most of these are not enforced for a variety of reasons, the problem is that the harm is already done: disclosure of information that you otherwise reasonably believe is kept private. Everything in the EULA would be interpreted against the drafter (SOE) in these grossly and heavily one-sided "contracts."
SOE, for some reason, does not like, or respect, or protect the privacy of its customers.
Soon SOE will find itself with limited customers to abuse.
My SOE accounts are ALL canceled.