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Was SWG really that great of a game? Ever?
Tiller
Member LegendaryPosts: 11,488
I know I had fun when it was all new to me, but it was also my first real MMO so there was a lot to explore. I was a fan of pre-cu and I hate the NGE, but really, think hard. Was SWG really that deep? Go try "the project that shall not be named here" for a week or so and see what I mean. It was kinda boring when you think back and the people who played are what made it fun. After you had explored everywhere, done everything, was there really much keeping you around other than the people you knew?
What did we really do in SWG? You had jobs…. You would hunt critters, kill players, make stuff for people to do their jobs, go on pointless journeys to places that didn't really fit into the timeline (themeparks) and had awful stories, chat, or emote over and over repetitious dances or songs that got on everyone’s nerves. To be honest is any MMO really fun for any length of time? What’s missing from current MMOs that make then not fun? A bit of SWG, and an actual storyline that matters?
I think SWG was really just slapped together. There were things to do, but really you just played "a guy" living in the Star Wars world. It was pretty much a theme park that you lived in with little real content or point behind it. There were aspects that were and still may be fun, but it gets old, and with no one around to enjoy it with you, you might as well play a single player game.
Currently SWG is a load of bull. They have literally thrown everything including the kitchen sink into it. To be honest from a canon standpoint it’s just a mess. You got everything from the clone wars, to Old Republic era stuff in it, and they do a poor job explaining its existence in the game, other than “some guy found it”.
Looking back, the previous game wasn’t necessarily more complex; it just had more steps to take to get to the end result (timesinks). Many people had something to complain about when it came to SWG, be it the buggyness of it, or the time it took to do anything, the lack of new things to do, the imbalance or just the fact that it was stupid.
When you bought SWG was it everything they said it was gonna be, was it everything you expected it to be? If you could go back in time, knowing what you know now, would you even buy the game? Seriously. I might, but then again I might not.
Comments
Knowing what I know now and knowing its ultimate fate - I'd have still bought it. I would because SWG PreCU was the vehicle that brought me so many memories, moments and friends. It brought me a community of like minded players who make that period in my online life - the best that I have ever had. Before or since.
Yes, it was buggy. Yes, it had flaws but it brought with it intangibles and opportunities that no other mmo has ever done. Its not that NGE destroyed just the game. It destroyed the community along with it - forever breaking it.
SWG was a GREAT game when it first came out... then they screwed the JEDI part of the game... now that was the best part of the game but i think it got alof of ppl into trying other jobs FOR A CHANGE.... which i found was still great... but then more and more changes started too occur and now the game just instnt the same anymore
well, it all depends on perspective. For example, I hate WoW and wouldn't consider it a 'good' MMO - but, 11mill people would disagree with me.
What I liked about, and continue to like about, SWG is that you get out of it what you put into it - it's a direct correlation. I consider myself a casual player these days whereas at one time, I was a little more hardcore. Back in those days, I 'achieved' jedi, got some knight robes,and worked hard to tweak templates, acquire good resources and krayt pearls. On the side, I was an architect and lead a sizeable guild. As you said, that was all just one big timesink.
These days I only have a few hours to devote to the game so I don't craft, don't lead a guild, and just participate in PvP and some PvE. I am not the most uber anymore and my credits are slowly dwindling away. I still consider it fun, and if I got divorced, quit my job, and chose to do so, I could go out and buy the best of the best resources and create a crafting empire. All it would cost me is time.
No MMO is 'deep' and the 'work' you put into is measure the same for all of them : Time.
Overall, the complexity of SWG (however you measure it) is still rather high - more so than WoW, more than CoH, more than AoC, more than LoTR. EVE is the only one that's similar.
But it's all perspective.
The contents of this post do not necessarily reflect the views of MMORPG.com and its management.
Yes.
No but it had the potential to be because the core game made for a great mmorpg but SOE/LA made sure that it never became great.
A friend of mine played SWG and that's exactly what he felt it was. A job.
He said one day he realized that he already had a job. and so he quit.
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IDK, I kinda feel ripped off with SWG. I think it could have been so much more, and they were really onto something with what they had, but missed the mark. I still think that if you took the best elements of SWG (epic social structure) mixed it with some of the elements of other MMOs (like a strong theme) and added a reason (personalized story) you would have a pretty decent MMO.
There were times when I had fun doing things alone in SWG, but very few.
One of the most amazing aspects of the classic SWG, which I am yet to see in any current MMO, is the considerable amount of features and designs which contributed to player related content by means of interacting and depending on others.
Today most MMOs focus on combat, crafting and exploration. Some have added a few revelations such as the "diplomacy" feature in Vanguard or what SW:TOR boosts about their "fourth pilar" being "story-telling".
SWGs "fourth pillar" was community, and the way i see it it was their biggest asset as well as their downfall. Why? Because all professions had a role to play in the community - not only in their hunting groups, but on the ecomomy and services they provided. Additionally, it was perhaps the only MMO which introduced completely non-combat related professions.
Smugglers who crafted spices and sliced armor and weapons, doctors which provided buffs and much needed wound caring, entertainers and image designers had an important role to play, rangers where much seeked after to track down mobs and excelled at skinning for hide, the crafting system was the most complex and in-depth I have seen, and the amount of components and sub-components in the game was incredible - a complete player made economy.
Add to that all the extra features such as an enormous array of decorative items and loot (most of which could be dropped in houses), player housing, cities which needed to be run by mayors, cantinas and hospitals managed by their own professionals... The list is quite endless.
Why was it downfall? Mostly because it resembled a RL simulation on the SW world. Some do not like to depend on others (doctors, entertainers, rangers, craftsmen) and they perceived this as negatively affecting their limited playtime. People wanted to log in, be able to take care of everything they needed to do on their own and log out.
I beleive we see this sort of behavour in contemporary MMOs. They are mostly focused on combat and more and more on "solo" content.
SWG at the time had concepts that made it better than others.
One big thing that was truly great was the stats on mats.
One week you might go after milk then the next week the stats on that milk might of changed.
But the simple answer to the ops question would be Yes, some aspects of the game made it the best ever.
I did try that project they we arent supposed to talk about.. Dunno why we cant tho, but thats another thing, mailed Community@MMORPG.com not long ago, and will get a answer to it I guess..
But the game wasnt the same.. It was boring... I think it has to do with most games being boring when there is no people around.. I only meet some people duelling in Theed, so it was pretty dead.. was able to get some of the old feeling back by going get buffs, being in the cantina chatting with 1 or 2 peeps and got some image designing
hehe..
It isnt the same at all, and its because the community lacking I guess..
And yes I would buy it again.. When I look back and remember when I saw SWG for the first time.. It was awesome.. My friend had it, and we both agreed that SW was better then LotR.. So he told me about the game, and I went to his house and saw him shooting some critters outside naboo, going to the cantina and talking with ppl and stuff.. It was so cool.. I had only played SPG's up untill that point and when I saw all those people having fun at the same spot in the same game, I was captured.. Then later I figured out how much more I could do in the game and I was deeply into the game.. Cities, Housing, Guilds, PvP, PvE and so on.
I didnt have Internet before, so I had to get that too. So actually getting SWG didnt just open up for that game, it actually opened up for more like a whole new gathering of people on various forums, sites and other cool stuff on the internet.
If I saw SWG for the first time today and it was just like back then, then yes I would go buy it right away!
it changed the way I thought about games.. Now I wouldnt just be the kid sitting home alone with his PC and playing stupid games.. Now I could socialize with people like me and it was awesome!
heh
Tough to say. I think that the game was poorly designed from the get go (excluding the skill trees, crafting, sand-box style). There just wasn't a lot to do aside of the holo grind and Base Defense/Attack. If the game would have remained the same, I think it really would have been dominated once games like World of Warcraft were released.
It was dominated and is even more so now lol.
The problem with SWG was it lacked content but SOE never addressed this and kept focusing on fixing Jedi.
stop saying its the people. The people/community are just a reaction to the medium. In this case it was precu swg.
in other words, it's not the particular group of people that played precu, it was precu that chose the community. If a precu server started up again you'd find the same type of crowd after the dust settles.
its like going to the movies. The group watching Quantum of Solace is different then the group watching Madagascar: Escape 2 Africa. You can't say quantum of solace was better because the crowd happened to be more mature and shared your same interests.
You'll find alot of fans of Pre-CU/NGE SWG will readily acknowledge the faults the game had.
The bugs were numerous, some professions were borked, the GCW was not enticing enough, etc.
However, if you exclude the CU & NGE nonsense and kept the Pre-CU system, compare it to the MMO competition out there.
1) Very tight knit player community. Due to how the template / skillpoint system worked and having 1 character per acct on a server (except Jedi unlocks), everybody needed everyone. Combat players, Crafters, Entertainers... each needed the other at one point or another.
Not to mention that grouping was so casually made, it was strange NOT to be in a group. Alot of MMOs these days are very solo-centric. Worse yet, groups last very shortly and disband after the accomplishment of a task. Usually not even saying "Bye!" to each other.
2) True player run economy. Everyone contributed to the game economy. The game was not loot-centric like so many MMORPGs these days. Alot of current MMORPGers cannot even fathom the fact that there were MMOs where items decayed and broke for good, and crafted equipment was readily affordable yet still good. Crafted equipment was essentially king. The demand was high yet the prices were competetive. Players were always searching for the best buy for their credits.
3) Skillpoint / Template System: IMO, one of the most crucial aspects of the Pre-CU/NGE system. THIS is what seperated SWG from alot of MMOs, and would have kept it unique in today's selection of MMOs. This was no lame, tired, overused Class + Level System with very little differentiation between players in each class. No, this sytem gave the player control as to what skills and how good the skills were with that character. It was up to the player to devise a "Template" by expending skillpoints for skillboxes as the toon accumulated XPs. There were players that followed "Flavor of the Month" (FOTM) templates, yet there were those that made very unique templates. It was all up to your own tastes and preferred playstyle. Not to mention the wide array of Professions to choose from. When this went away completely with the advent of the NGE, it was the single largest factor why I left SWG. In the current crop of MMOs, no other MMO (unless I'm missing 1) has this style of gameplay.
4) All gameplay aspects were viable for devoting alot of time into. Combat, Crafting, Entertainers, etc. A great example is the truly oustanding crafting system. It is a big game in itself to produce competetive products. There were also many players in the Pre-CU days that were completely devoted to crafting. They enjoyed the crafting and merchant experience SWG offered, and never really bothered to pick up a blaster for fighting. Lastly, there were many players completely devoted to the social aspect of Entertainers. Didn't care for crafting or combat, but they enjoyed the social game of it. EVERYONE went to a Cantina at one point or another to visit the Entertainers.
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To me, alot of MMOs do a few of the above points well in their own ways, but not all the points. Pre-CU/NGE SWG offered all these aspects, alongside the game's obvious flaws.
I've said this before in other threads: Where would SWG be if it kept the Pre-CU system, squashed the bugs, tweak the professions, and SOE continue producing expansion packs for it, especially since the 3 years after 2005? Where would the game be if it got the much needed polish it required?
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
Star Wars Galaxies, by all accounts, was one of the worst MMOs to have ever been made.
It had one of the worst launches in the history of MMOs, and it lasted MANY months past launch.
Cities you couldn't even type or walk in because the framerate was so bad.
Most of the world was just empty landscape with trash mobs.
Almost all the missions were broken.
The Jedi system was a joke, and one of the worst design decisions ever conveiced.
The one saving grace of the game was they gave you the FREEDOM to work around these things. The community and the Star Wars logo saved this game from the reject bin.
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Before the NGE fiasco , before the CU even though the game did have its flaws we all know them , it had the best community ever , open worlds, people grouping left and right to hunt, Jedi that actually hid from everyone, Bounty Hunters that hunted Jedi, TEFs, saber TEFS, Jedi Permadeath, Vader hunted down Jedi, actual PVP battles that took place everywhere everytime, complex skill system, mix and match template system, players that worked together for the fun of it not the PHAT loots, total player run economy no ridiciouls raid rare BS and so much more that so many games are missing these day, as I said before the Pre-CU did have many flaws but the positives of the game outweighed the bad, today however that is a different story..... todays current SWG version I wouldn't recommend to anyone.
/thread imo
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
From my point of view, pre cu had more depth than any other MMO out there. You had total freedom and was not forced to do hundreds and hundreds of quests to level before you could explore different abilities, weapons, places, planets, cities, etc. You were not stuck in your profession, you could choose where you wanted to start, and travel any which way you wanted to without having to worry about running into invisible walls to guide you on a pre determined path (until wookie world...but that was CU).
On top of everything you had a crafting and harvesting system that is still unmatched by any other game. Everything served a purpose, meat, hide, bone, foraging, harvesting, etc. Such great detail that at first seems so overwhelming and complex that it scared a lot of people from trying it and even understanding it. Buffs, stat migrations, imagine designers....what other MMO gives you the option to changes your characters appearance and base stats whenever you felt like it?
You had the freedom to observe all end game content (high level mobs, areas, planets, etc) even as a day one noob....you might not have been able to do anything but at least you could see it out of curiosity. Then there is space which is almost a whole separate game itself with it's own depth.
An economy ran by players, cities created, ran, and maintained by players, and a great need for social interaction and interdependency to help create a close knit community.
Granted, Pre CU had a ton bugs and some flaws. It was far from perfect but even in it's most broken form it still gave players more options, depth, and freedom than any other MMO out there. In fact the only MMO on the market right now that comes close to matching the freedom and depth of pre cu SWG is, and it pains me to say this, still SWG. Even in it's crappy dumbed down great big shaft to the players form, it still has plenty of features that no other MMO has, but unfortunately those features can't make up for the rest of it that was ruined.
All MMOs that I have tried, MxO, CoV, WoW, EvE, and AoC I wasn't able to play them for more than a month at the very most, however I played SWG for nearly 5 years.
While I will not deny that SWG launched with a ton of bugs and some very very very poor design decisions, the previous poster who claimed it was the "worst launch ever" was totally off his rocker. It had bugs, balance issues, exploits and problems from day one - but it was also playable, something games like AO and WW2 Online could only dream of on launch day.
As for what SWG "had" pre-NGE that made it special?
One of the best crafting/resource gathering systems ever deployed in an MMO, massively player driven primary and secondary economy. Skilled crafters known by *name* hand crafting precision weapons and armor for the best of the best at a premium, mass marketers making "grind" grade gear sold directly, in shops and resold across the worlds in Malls
The widest range of non-combat driven professions and play options ever seen in an MMO. You had actual groups of people playing non combat characters full time! Crafters, sellers, resellers, miners, explorers, entertainers, bio engineers etc. Hard to think of an MMO where you knew someones name not because he was a leet dungeon raider or pvp master, but because he ran the best MALL in the galaxy.
An incredible range of housing, construction and business options. One of my most memorable nights in ANY MMO was a party thrown by a merchant to promote his new location. He hired dozens of dancers and musicians to entertain and a team to create a fireworks display. In what other game have you ever had a tailor? Literally - a person you knew and interacted with solely because they made you clothes? Or went shopping on the way back to town from a long day hunting rebels to make sure you had a collection of new gowns and necklaces to tip your favorite dancers with?
A skill based profession system which while imperfect, allowed amazing flexibility in defining just "what you were" and which you could evolve over time easily as your play changed. My "main" started life as a mostly ranger/prospector who lived in the wilds, progressed through Commando hunting rebels and ended up as a BH/Carbineer hunting whoever I was paid to.
Now, like I said, I wasn't blind and I am not a fanbois - there were a ton of problems with game balance, PVP was totally borked, the entire Jedi system sucked in every incarnation; but the game had a lot else going for it - all of which met the wrecking ball which was the NGE.
After reading the OP, I sat here thinking for a while. Thinking of how to explain that, while SWG had a lot of bugs and a lot of problems and a lot of issues, it also had the groundwork built for something spectacular. Something I'd never seen before and have yet to see since.
Then ericbelser pretty much said it.
So, yeah. What he said, and then some.
I'd agree with you..it had so much potential to be a classic..but it fell down in so many areas and thats what so sad about the whole affair..a massive case of what if..that will be SWGs legacy to MMO gaming.
This.
SWG pre cu-nge WAS that great.
Yes it had bugs and lack of content and stupid design decisions, like allowing to let people build anywere, then on the forums tell you are not allow to build in front of a dungeon or other POI DUH ... for this there was a fix, namely restrict some areas for building, but they never did that ... and there were tons if things like that, but still the game was great, and it had an awesome community, all destroyed by SOE grr.
Over time they could have fixed the bugs and add content ... but they didnt and destroyed the game.
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Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
well, regardless of the flaws, no one can deny that it is still going 'OK' for a 5 yr old MMORPG. . . 20k-40k players (no one really knows) isnt bad for a MMO that has been run like this.
After the free transfer, teh top servers will probably double in size, 1000-1200 players, and the other destination servers will have 500- 600 players. That will help the 'feel' quite a bit.
The contents of this post do not necessarily reflect the views of MMORPG.com and its management.
The original game and concepts were what was great. Yes there were flaws, and it had the problem of having been released about 75% finished. The original CURB plan, which would have been a refinement of the original game core (not a replacement which is what the CU ended up being) was what should have been done, but of course wasn't.
The problem was that no one at SOE believed in the game and it's concepts and the management/dev team that replaced the original that created it acted continuously to undermine it. Fact of the matter is that the Pre-CU was never given a fair chance by SOE and LEC, which is sad, since that system had far more merit to warrant such than the NGE, which has sadly now lasted longer than the original.
The result was that instead of working on the CURB, which was the game that they SHOULD have waited to launch with, successive management instead pushed for wholesale changes, the CU, and the NGE, which were likely competing ideas worked on at roughly the same time.
This led to the mismanagement of resources, with no effort at ALL going into bug fixing, new features, and yes, new content that could have been done in 2004-2005 that were instead wasted on core system re-do's. Both of which were also released broken, raw, and unfinished which only added fuel to the anger fire of the subscriber base which was highly pissed over the CU, which turned into full scale rock throwing riot with the NGE.
By that time the damage became permanent, made worse by their steadfast stupidity in sticking with the NGE and in promoting nimrods like The Dork Lord, Toilet Boy, and now Loche into the lead dev position.
I look at the success of EVE Online and wonder "what could have been". Had the original vision been stuck with, refined, tweaked, and expanded on instead of ripped to shreds twice, that success, being the alternative to WOW and it's many clones, could have been SWG's. SWG, like EVE, could be in the enviable position of being a 5+ year old game that is continually growing, rather than hanging around barely avoiding cancellation.
I just have to scratch my head when I read statements like this one.
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