You jump in a a mass battle into my AoE and what ? Its not a 1vs 1 ..if our team is organized a "sorry" will do it..if there is no room for sorry then you probably has to face my team ? clan ? alliance ? whole race ? if i deny to kill you and you try to kill me ... you may find out that if you trick people you will grow a reputation that will hinder you progress within you choosen clan/alliance/race..
You don't understand the alignment system. When you are red the alignment system says you are murder. Given a murder statuse you don' t belong to a team, clan, alliance, or race. Anyone can kill you without a consequence. The grey status is just as bad. It drops too many of the restrictions that are already in place, and it should at best ease up on them.
Is it the possible griefing parts you dont like or what is it?
Alignment system?
The alignment system will fail. My proof is every game that had the same feature. The games themselves didn't fail, but the reputation aspect did.
The reason is this. The reputation system is in place to keep PKing from being rampent. You kill players, you get banished to the 'wilderness'. Sounds good in theory... but the problem is the system is so easy to manipulate that the most hardcore PKers will never go red. Most of the people who end up red will be tricked into it. For instance....I make myself 'naked' so I don't lose anything when I die.. I step in your AOE and you go gray.. I let you kill me... congrats.. you are well on your way to being 'thrown into the wilderness'.. and if I do happen to kill you.. i don't get a murder count. It's a no win situation for you. The game has now become 'how do I manipulate the reputation system, or how do I avoid being tricked by the reputation system".
One of the most annoying things in UO was theives. Don't get me wrong, I liked stealing or chasing down a theif... the problem was they were always naked. If they got away,.. good for htem, they got my stuff... if I won and killed them... i got nothing.
You jump in a a mass battle into my AoE and what ? Its not a 1vs 1 ..if our team is organized a "sorry" will do it..if there is no room for sorry then you probably has to face my team ? clan ? alliance ? whole race ? if i deny to kill you and you try to kill me ...
you may find out that if you trick people you will grow a reputation that will hinder you progress within you choosen clan/alliance/race..
You think mass combat will save the reputation system?
You and all your friends are out hunting. I jump in YOUR AOE and you go gray. I attack you. Your friends defend you and kill me. Guess what, they just got a murder count because i was never gray. And now the game becomes " is it worth a murder count to save my friend". Again, the game doens't become about combat.. it becomes about 'gaming the reputation system'.
Again, it is the same system that ws in UO. It will take a new player a month to learn how to exploit the system (and those of us who played UO will know right away). You tell me your character name, and I can have you red and banished within 3 hours of launch.
How ill PVP work ,if say i make two accounts and i use one to just hit my own player,so i can keep killing my other account?after a but ,delete that player make a new one for my main to beat up on again,while all the time killing my own alignment?
Idk how this would work with reputation, but you'd have to be pretty sad and boring person to sit and do THIS all day.
You jump in a a mass battle into my AoE and what ? Its not a 1vs 1 ..if our team is organized a "sorry" will do it..if there is no room for sorry then you probably has to face my team ? clan ? alliance ? whole race ? if i deny to kill you and you try to kill me ... you may find out that if you trick people you will grow a reputation that will hinder you progress within you choosen clan/alliance/race..
You don't understand the alignment system. When you are red the alignment system says you are murder. Given a murder statuse you don' t belong to a team, clan, alliance, or race. Anyone can kill you without a consequence. The grey status is just as bad. It drops too many of the restrictions that are already in place, and it should at best ease up on them.
You pretty don't have gotten the example ..for me to go grey requires a "no red" allied person to jump into my AoE ..
If he is red i can kill him without go grey...
And if he trick enough people of his own (by lure them into a "successfully AoE ambush")..i think his own race will be proud to getting red because he murder him ...
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
How ill PVP work ,if say i make two accounts and i use one to just hit my own player,so i can keep killing my other account?after a but ,delete that player make a new one for my main to beat up on again,while all the time killing my own alignment?
Idk how this would work with reputation, but you'd have to be pretty sad and boring person to sit and do THIS all day.
You underestimate the depths to which some "people" will go.
You jump in a a mass battle into my AoE and what ? Its not a 1vs 1 ..if our team is organized a "sorry" will do it..if there is no room for sorry then you probably has to face my team ? clan ? alliance ? whole race ? if i deny to kill you and you try to kill me ... you may find out that if you trick people you will grow a reputation that will hinder you progress within you choosen clan/alliance/race..
You don't understand the alignment system. When you are red the alignment system says you are murder. Given a murder statuse you don' t belong to a team, clan, alliance, or race. Anyone can kill you without a consequence. The grey status is just as bad. It drops too many of the restrictions that are already in place, and it should at best ease up on them.
I'd just like to reinforce this. Trust me, if you go gray or red in the middle of a crowd, you will get ganked by half of them within seconds. You won't have time to say 'sorry'. Ask on the UO forums how long a gray player would last at WBB. One of the real joys of this system is tricking someone into going gray and then watching them get ganked by everyone on the screen.
And your comment about your 'reputation growing and hindering your progress'.. What are you doing to say? I accidently went gray and XXX killed me? First off, people will call you a noob and tell you to learn to play.. and secondly, they (and you) will figure out how to do it and do it to others. That player who learns how to PK other people without ever getting a murder count is the one that people will look up to, not shun. Just like most red players aren't feared, they are just laughed at because they are the ones suffering all the penaltys and not smart enough to avoid the reputation system.
This is a pretty disheartening but obvious flaw. On the other hand what are the AoE capeabilities like. I don't think that this is a deal breaker, but it makes one lean more twoards a melle build ^_^
Heres another question for thenoobcomic DF reviews:
If a white player attacks a grey player, will he go grey to?
In my little wold of common sense, the answer to this is yes. Thats the way L2 did it only they had Purple as flagged instead of grey.
So while you can still be tricked to go grey by some player and then be ganked to no end by a hiding pk group. you will not hit someone who then kills you without you being able to hit back.
The l2 rules where: (replace purple with grey for DF theory)
Killing a white player -> you go RED
Killing a purple player -> +1 PvP point
hitting a white player -> you go pruple
hitting a purple player -> you go purple to.
hitting a red player -> you stay white even if you kill him.
Wich meant RED players if they fought back went even further red since if they won they would again have killed another white player. And being RED ment alot of player would hunt you KOS style. Wich meant being red was not a good option and was to be fixxed asap.
Problem with easily being tricked to go grey and be ganked by a big force that gets no penalty is still there.
FagerCraft - Feeding the trolls on mmorpg.com since 2005.
These systems are EASILY manipulated, and will be used to grief, excessively. They will also be used by 'smart' thieves to manipulate the situation in thier favor. This is just one more reason why this game will be full of griefers.... and those that are not there to game the system, will leave.
This is a pretty disheartening but obvious flaw. On the other hand what are the AoE capeabilities like. I don't think that this is a deal breaker, but it makes one lean more twoards a melle build ^_^
Good point.. AOEs will be a big problem. But again, back to UO... exploiting the reputation system was going on all the time, and there were no commonly used AOEs. There were a million ways to trick someone into going gray.
My favorite as a thief was this. I'd go gray, then go somewhere and hide. I'd have my timer going, and 1 second before my gray status would end, I'd show myself in public. There would always be 2 or 3 people who cast a spell the split second I turned blue, which would turn them gray.
I don't want to come off as unfriendly, because I'm not. I'm not going to be corpse camping or killing new players. I believe a good fight is the only one worth fighting but,,,,
If you don't think you'll like the game, then don't play.
Death is welcome to me. The vast majority of times I've died in the last 8 years of MMO playing is because I just didn't care enough to watch the screen. I've run off cliffs, into water and drowned or into mobs that killed me before I looked back at the screen. I want to have to pay attention, and I'll be looking for lurking players.
If there was a perma invis I'd worry a little bit, but there's not. Get used to looking around. If there's someone hanging out kill them or move on. Get to know a group of people you can trust, well somewhat trust, and go have some fun, or don't.
If you know you won't like it you'll just be messing up server populations by trying it out. Wait for the reviews, there will be some bad for sure because people aren't ready for the game. Then you can come post how you told us it would be bad and get your troll rush.
Is it the possible griefing parts you dont like or what is it?
Alignment system?
The alignment system will fail. My proof is every game that had the same feature. The games themselves didn't fail, but the reputation aspect did.
The reason is this. The reputation system is in place to keep PKing from being rampent. You kill players, you get banished to the 'wilderness'. Sounds good in theory... but the problem is the system is so easy to manipulate that the most hardcore PKers will never go red. Most of the people who end up red will be tricked into it. For instance....I make myself 'naked' so I don't lose anything when I die.. I step in your AOE and you go gray.. I let you kill me... congrats.. you are well on your way to being 'thrown into the wilderness'.. and if I do happen to kill you.. i don't get a murder count. It's a no win situation for you. The game has now become 'how do I manipulate the reputation system, or how do I avoid being tricked by the reputation system".
One of the most annoying things in UO was theives. Don't get me wrong, I liked stealing or chasing down a theif... the problem was they were always naked. If they got away,.. good for htem, they got my stuff... if I won and killed them... i got nothing.
You jump in a a mass battle into my AoE and what ? Its not a 1vs 1 ..if our team is organized a "sorry" will do it..if there is no room for sorry then you probably has to face my team ? clan ? alliance ? whole race ? if i deny to kill you and you try to kill me ...
you may find out that if you trick people you will grow a reputation that will hinder you progress within you choosen clan/alliance/race..
You think mass combat will save the reputation system?
You and all your friends are out hunting. I jump in YOUR AOE and you go gray. I attack you. Your friends defend you and kill me. Guess what, they just got a murder count because i was never gray. And now the game becomes " is it worth a murder count to save my friend". Again, the game doens't become about combat.. it becomes about 'gaming the reputation system'.
Again, it is the same system that ws in UO. It will take a new player a month to learn how to exploit the system (and those of us who played UO will know right away). You tell me your character name, and I can have you red and banished within 3 hours of launch.
You example fails at the moment me and my friends don't bother to play these "reputation exploiting games" but are involved primary in the racial conflict and have build up reputation beforehand..
Sure i can't forsee what the in game community be like ..but obviously racial conflict gets rewarded by game mechanics and i expect there will be the primary focus in game and not "how to gank my ally"
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
If a white player attacks a grey player, will he go grey to?
No way or else you end up with this scenario
I get naked. I walk into town and attack you and go gray. You defend yourself and go gray. Everyone in town ganks both of us.. but since i'm naked, I lose nothing and you lose everything. It's even more convenient if it happens to be my friends standing around when I do this.
- Don't email me with questions, requests or comments - I can't answer (NDA, my mom saying that I shouldn't talk to strangers, etc.). This sound like very credible info.
Yes it does.
_____________________________ At the turn of the century... In 2008... Cracked.com voted Roosevelt as the most badass President of all time.
These systems are EASILY manipulated, and will be used to grief, excessively. They will also be used by 'smart' thieves to manipulate the situation in thier favor. This is just one more reason why this game will be full of griefers.... and those that are not there to game the system, will leave.
I really hope that all gamers planning on picking DF up does so with the knowledge that this is a open PvP game with great loss and reward.
That means everytime somone wins, there someone who equally greatly loses.
And the one who loses is not NPC, since its a fully fledged PvP game.
Expect to be ganked, gather the whits to give back twofold, rise above your enemie and leave him in the dirt!
Dont get pissed, get even! Its that kind of game.
Also like to say that not all players that wont game the system will leave, theres ALOT of us (incl me) that enjoys playing in a world, a game that is hard. We enjoy the challanges. We are usually the legit ones who feels that if we have to cheat we might aswell quit, we are also the ones who tries to beat the cheater with legit means - thats gives one of the greaters pleasures of all, and the humiliation you give to the whussies that cheat and exploit are like the sweetest fruit youll ever get . The harder the challange the greater the feeling is when you succeed!
But it has limits to hehe...
FagerCraft - Feeding the trolls on mmorpg.com since 2005.
Is it the possible griefing parts you dont like or what is it?
Alignment system?
The alignment system will fail. My proof is every game that had the same feature. The games themselves didn't fail, but the reputation aspect did.
The reason is this. The reputation system is in place to keep PKing from being rampent. You kill players, you get banished to the 'wilderness'. Sounds good in theory... but the problem is the system is so easy to manipulate that the most hardcore PKers will never go red. Most of the people who end up red will be tricked into it. For instance....I make myself 'naked' so I don't lose anything when I die.. I step in your AOE and you go gray.. I let you kill me... congrats.. you are well on your way to being 'thrown into the wilderness'.. and if I do happen to kill you.. i don't get a murder count. It's a no win situation for you. The game has now become 'how do I manipulate the reputation system, or how do I avoid being tricked by the reputation system".
One of the most annoying things in UO was theives. Don't get me wrong, I liked stealing or chasing down a theif... the problem was they were always naked. If they got away,.. good for htem, they got my stuff... if I won and killed them... i got nothing.
You jump in a a mass battle into my AoE and what ? Its not a 1vs 1 ..if our team is organized a "sorry" will do it..if there is no room for sorry then you probably has to face my team ? clan ? alliance ? whole race ? if i deny to kill you and you try to kill me ...
you may find out that if you trick people you will grow a reputation that will hinder you progress within you choosen clan/alliance/race..
You think mass combat will save the reputation system?
You and all your friends are out hunting. I jump in YOUR AOE and you go gray. I attack you. Your friends defend you and kill me. Guess what, they just got a murder count because i was never gray. And now the game becomes " is it worth a murder count to save my friend". Again, the game doens't become about combat.. it becomes about 'gaming the reputation system'.
Again, it is the same system that ws in UO. It will take a new player a month to learn how to exploit the system (and those of us who played UO will know right away). You tell me your character name, and I can have you red and banished within 3 hours of launch.
You example fails at the moment me and my friends don't bother to play these "reputation exploiting games" but are involved primary in the racial conflict and have build up reputation beforehand..
True. You can certainly chose not to use the exploits, but that won't prevent people from using them on you. Players always overestimate the concept of 'player justice'. In most games, there will be moments where it works.... nice players will run through a known red hangout and kill all the badguys... but for the most part, the people who game the system are the majority.
Again, tell me your characters name, and I'm sure within 3 hours that I can make you 'red' and be banished from town. That is really one of the ironys of pvp games... you have a gameplay forced on you that you probably don't want. Players may want to just kill monsters or chop trees, but guess what, that red is going to force his gameplay on you. You may want to only deal with racial conflicts, but guess what, those noto-pks are going to force their gamestyle on you.
it sounds like a good system. numbers for actions can always be tweaked to balance it all.
I wonder about re percusions for hitting people with healing spells. what if I heal a red, or enemy race? essentially helping people commit crimes without doing damage.
in guildwars you could heal the enemy team, with aoe spells. you could heal enemy monsters in a pve group just to grief and for giggles.
Azrile, what is with your hate-on? It seems like you are froathing at the mouth, stoking up every thread possible on this issue. Yes this feature brings potential consequences as well as benefits: glass half full/half empty, it is up to each player to determine which works for them. Do you want to play WoW for the rest of your life?
The picture that you are painting is the worst case scenario and this is without any direct experience with the game itself. For this to happen the griefed players would have make zero effort to manage their surroundings: careless use of AoE, finishing off blue players, failing to leave hot spots, failing to have recon, etc.
IMO Aventuring should be commended for risking making a social MMO instead you seem to be demanding a perfect social system. Do you think that is reasonable? How many governments have been able to create a perfect social system? Do you expect that an entertainment software company should deliver one?
If a white player attacks a grey player, will he go grey to? No way or else you end up with this scenario I get naked. I walk into town and attack you and go gray. You defend yourself and go gray. Everyone in town ganks both of us.. but since i'm naked, I lose nothing and you lose everything. It's even more convenient if it happens to be my friends standing around when I do this.
When you naked hit me in town, the guars will whipe you out since you engaed in pvp in town.
If your naked and hitting me in the open i got the choice to kill you and go grey to for a few mins, or laugh and walk away.
If your really the stupid to hit back on a naked grey player seeing shitloads of people staring at you around you, then holy crap, you deserved it.
Im sorry but that scenario is really stupid. this system was in Lineage2 and worked perfectly. Difference is L2 had waaay less AoE attacks that would be exploitable to force ppl to go purp (it was hard being a warlord thou since he had almost all AoE attacks only).
FagerCraft - Feeding the trolls on mmorpg.com since 2005.
I don't understand why people worry about stuff like this, it's a pvp game and you have to expect pvp. To me that means cheating, scamming, fighting, manipulating game mechanics ect basically anything that isn't outright botting / hacking is fare game. People seem to want games like the real life activity in which people wear padded fat suits and hit each other with foam battens. Come off it guys it's so lame, lets have games where real life emotion is stirred up whether it be anger, extreme animosity, fear, joy ect, much more entertaining imo.
These systems are EASILY manipulated, and will be used to grief, excessively. They will also be used by 'smart' thieves to manipulate the situation in thier favor. This is just one more reason why this game will be full of griefers.... and those that are not there to game the system, will leave.
I really hope that all gamers planning on picking DF up does so with the knowledge that this is a open PvP game with great loss and reward.
That means everytime somone wins, there someone who equally greatly loses.
And the one who loses is not NPC, since its a fully fledged PvP game.
Expect to be ganked, gather the whits to give back twofold, rise above your enemie and leave him in the dirt!
Dont get pissed, get even! Its that kind of game.
Also like to say that not all players that wont game the system will leave, theres ALOT of us (incl me) that enjoys playing in a world, a game that is hard. We enjoy the challanges. We are usually the legit ones who feels that if we have to cheat we might aswell quit, we are also the ones who tries to beat the cheater with legit means - thats gives one of the greaters pleasures of all, and the humiliation you give to the whussies that cheat and exploit are like the sweetest fruit youll ever get . The harder the challange the greater the feeling is when you succeed!
But it has limits to hehe...
There are so many situations where you are just wrong. Some times there is no justice.
Naked thieves/pks are one example. They may come after you 10 times, and you win 9 times. But they are naked so you win nothing.. but that one time they win, they get your stuff.
I'm all for a game where I can get ganked while out mining or chopping wood.. or killing mobs. I'm all for chasing down a player, only to have his friends shop up and gank me.
But the things in this thread are going to be the norm... the exploiting and cheating becomes the norm, not the exception. Like I said, in UO... the players who went Red from killing players were laughed at. The players who killed players and never went gray are the norm.
Azrile, what is with your hate-on? It seems like you are froathing at the mouth, stoking up every thread possible on this issue. Yes this feature brings potential consequences as well as benefits: glass half full/half empty, it is up to each player to determine which works for them. Do you want to play WoW for the rest of your life? The picture that you are painting is the worst case scenario and this is without any direct experience with the game itself. For this to happen the griefed players would have make zero effort to manage their surroundings: careless use of AoE, finishing off blue players, failing to leave hot spots, failing to have recon, etc. IMO Aventuring should be commended for risking making a social MMO instead you seem to be demanding a perfect social system. Do you think that is reasonable? How many governments have been able to create a perfect social system? Do you expect that an entertainment software company should deliver one?
I'm not really hating or frothing.. I'm enjoying this conversation. Game system, and especially pking 'rulesets' are fascinating to me... from UO to Ashen Empires etc. So people commenting on 'player justice' and stuff are fascinating to me. they are doing something that has already been done before but they think it will be different.
The entire Red-Gray-Blue system does not work. The majority of players will just circumvent it.. so why even bother with it. The people who do the most killing won't go red, the people who go gray will have done nothing wrong etc etc. Why not try something new? You said Aventure should be commended for taking a risk? they aren't really doing that, they are just putting in a system that has already been proven to be majorly flawed. If they actually did something new, then I'd love to talk about that. But if they are only going to do the UO thing, then why not talk about how it failed in UO.
Examples of two different MMORPG's. World of Warcraft Player 1: Looking to buy an epic greatsword. Player 2: I have one meet me in main city. Player 1: Here is the gold. (Gives gold) Player 2: Here is your sword. (Gives sword) Player 1: Thank you have a nice day!
Darkfall Player 1: Looking to buy an epic greatsword. Player 2: I have one meet me in main city. Player 1: Here is the gold. (Attempts to trade) Player 2: I have a different way of trading! (Twenty guild mates of player 2 rush player 1, killing player 1 in seconds and looting his corpse of the gold) Player 1: (Cries)
ooh.. I remember that. In UO. a theif has a much greater chance of stealing something if they've seen it ( last object). So you dupe someone into showing you something, and as soon as it goes back into their backpack, you steal it and run Come to me my pretty valorite Greatsword LOL
Comments
You don't understand the alignment system. When you are red the alignment system says you are murder. Given a murder statuse you don' t belong to a team, clan, alliance, or race. Anyone can kill you without a consequence. The grey status is just as bad. It drops too many of the restrictions that are already in place, and it should at best ease up on them.
Care to elaborate abit?
Is it the possible griefing parts you dont like or what is it?
Alignment system?
The alignment system will fail. My proof is every game that had the same feature. The games themselves didn't fail, but the reputation aspect did.
The reason is this. The reputation system is in place to keep PKing from being rampent. You kill players, you get banished to the 'wilderness'. Sounds good in theory... but the problem is the system is so easy to manipulate that the most hardcore PKers will never go red. Most of the people who end up red will be tricked into it. For instance....I make myself 'naked' so I don't lose anything when I die.. I step in your AOE and you go gray.. I let you kill me... congrats.. you are well on your way to being 'thrown into the wilderness'.. and if I do happen to kill you.. i don't get a murder count. It's a no win situation for you. The game has now become 'how do I manipulate the reputation system, or how do I avoid being tricked by the reputation system".
One of the most annoying things in UO was theives. Don't get me wrong, I liked stealing or chasing down a theif... the problem was they were always naked. If they got away,.. good for htem, they got my stuff... if I won and killed them... i got nothing.
You jump in a a mass battle into my AoE and what ? Its not a 1vs 1 ..if our team is organized a "sorry" will do it..if there is no room for sorry then you probably has to face my team ? clan ? alliance ? whole race ? if i deny to kill you and you try to kill me ...
you may find out that if you trick people you will grow a reputation that will hinder you progress within you choosen clan/alliance/race..
You think mass combat will save the reputation system?
You and all your friends are out hunting. I jump in YOUR AOE and you go gray. I attack you. Your friends defend you and kill me. Guess what, they just got a murder count because i was never gray. And now the game becomes " is it worth a murder count to save my friend". Again, the game doens't become about combat.. it becomes about 'gaming the reputation system'.
Again, it is the same system that ws in UO. It will take a new player a month to learn how to exploit the system (and those of us who played UO will know right away). You tell me your character name, and I can have you red and banished within 3 hours of launch.
Idk how this would work with reputation, but you'd have to be pretty sad and boring person to sit and do THIS all day.
"TO MICHAEL!"
You don't understand the alignment system. When you are red the alignment system says you are murder. Given a murder statuse you don' t belong to a team, clan, alliance, or race. Anyone can kill you without a consequence. The grey status is just as bad. It drops too many of the restrictions that are already in place, and it should at best ease up on them.
You pretty don't have gotten the example ..for me to go grey requires a "no red" allied person to jump into my AoE ..
If he is red i can kill him without go grey...
And if he trick enough people of his own (by lure them into a "successfully AoE ambush")..i think his own race will be proud to getting red because he murder him ...
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Idk how this would work with reputation, but you'd have to be pretty sad and boring person to sit and do THIS all day.
You underestimate the depths to which some "people" will go.
------------------
Originally posted by javac
well i'm 35 and have a PhD in science, and then 10 years experience in bioinformatics... you?
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/218865/page/8
You don't understand the alignment system. When you are red the alignment system says you are murder. Given a murder statuse you don' t belong to a team, clan, alliance, or race. Anyone can kill you without a consequence. The grey status is just as bad. It drops too many of the restrictions that are already in place, and it should at best ease up on them.
I'd just like to reinforce this. Trust me, if you go gray or red in the middle of a crowd, you will get ganked by half of them within seconds. You won't have time to say 'sorry'. Ask on the UO forums how long a gray player would last at WBB. One of the real joys of this system is tricking someone into going gray and then watching them get ganked by everyone on the screen.
And your comment about your 'reputation growing and hindering your progress'.. What are you doing to say? I accidently went gray and XXX killed me? First off, people will call you a noob and tell you to learn to play.. and secondly, they (and you) will figure out how to do it and do it to others. That player who learns how to PK other people without ever getting a murder count is the one that people will look up to, not shun. Just like most red players aren't feared, they are just laughed at because they are the ones suffering all the penaltys and not smart enough to avoid the reputation system.
This is a pretty disheartening but obvious flaw. On the other hand what are the AoE capeabilities like. I don't think that this is a deal breaker, but it makes one lean more twoards a melle build ^_^
Heres another question for thenoobcomic DF reviews:
If a white player attacks a grey player, will he go grey to?
In my little wold of common sense, the answer to this is yes. Thats the way L2 did it only they had Purple as flagged instead of grey.
So while you can still be tricked to go grey by some player and then be ganked to no end by a hiding pk group. you will not hit someone who then kills you without you being able to hit back.
The l2 rules where: (replace purple with grey for DF theory)
Killing a white player -> you go RED
Killing a purple player -> +1 PvP point
hitting a white player -> you go pruple
hitting a purple player -> you go purple to.
hitting a red player -> you stay white even if you kill him.
Wich meant RED players if they fought back went even further red since if they won they would again have killed another white player. And being RED ment alot of player would hunt you KOS style. Wich meant being red was not a good option and was to be fixxed asap.
Problem with easily being tricked to go grey and be ganked by a big force that gets no penalty is still there.
FagerCraft - Feeding the trolls on mmorpg.com since 2005.
These systems are EASILY manipulated, and will be used to grief, excessively. They will also be used by 'smart' thieves to manipulate the situation in thier favor. This is just one more reason why this game will be full of griefers.... and those that are not there to game the system, will leave.
Good point.. AOEs will be a big problem. But again, back to UO... exploiting the reputation system was going on all the time, and there were no commonly used AOEs. There were a million ways to trick someone into going gray.
My favorite as a thief was this. I'd go gray, then go somewhere and hide. I'd have my timer going, and 1 second before my gray status would end, I'd show myself in public. There would always be 2 or 3 people who cast a spell the split second I turned blue, which would turn them gray.
I don't want to come off as unfriendly, because I'm not. I'm not going to be corpse camping or killing new players. I believe a good fight is the only one worth fighting but,,,,
If you don't think you'll like the game, then don't play.
Death is welcome to me. The vast majority of times I've died in the last 8 years of MMO playing is because I just didn't care enough to watch the screen. I've run off cliffs, into water and drowned or into mobs that killed me before I looked back at the screen. I want to have to pay attention, and I'll be looking for lurking players.
If there was a perma invis I'd worry a little bit, but there's not. Get used to looking around. If there's someone hanging out kill them or move on. Get to know a group of people you can trust, well somewhat trust, and go have some fun, or don't.
If you know you won't like it you'll just be messing up server populations by trying it out. Wait for the reviews, there will be some bad for sure because people aren't ready for the game. Then you can come post how you told us it would be bad and get your troll rush.
Asdar
Care to elaborate abit?
Is it the possible griefing parts you dont like or what is it?
Alignment system?
The alignment system will fail. My proof is every game that had the same feature. The games themselves didn't fail, but the reputation aspect did.
The reason is this. The reputation system is in place to keep PKing from being rampent. You kill players, you get banished to the 'wilderness'. Sounds good in theory... but the problem is the system is so easy to manipulate that the most hardcore PKers will never go red. Most of the people who end up red will be tricked into it. For instance....I make myself 'naked' so I don't lose anything when I die.. I step in your AOE and you go gray.. I let you kill me... congrats.. you are well on your way to being 'thrown into the wilderness'.. and if I do happen to kill you.. i don't get a murder count. It's a no win situation for you. The game has now become 'how do I manipulate the reputation system, or how do I avoid being tricked by the reputation system".
One of the most annoying things in UO was theives. Don't get me wrong, I liked stealing or chasing down a theif... the problem was they were always naked. If they got away,.. good for htem, they got my stuff... if I won and killed them... i got nothing.
You jump in a a mass battle into my AoE and what ? Its not a 1vs 1 ..if our team is organized a "sorry" will do it..if there is no room for sorry then you probably has to face my team ? clan ? alliance ? whole race ? if i deny to kill you and you try to kill me ...
you may find out that if you trick people you will grow a reputation that will hinder you progress within you choosen clan/alliance/race..
You think mass combat will save the reputation system?
You and all your friends are out hunting. I jump in YOUR AOE and you go gray. I attack you. Your friends defend you and kill me. Guess what, they just got a murder count because i was never gray. And now the game becomes " is it worth a murder count to save my friend". Again, the game doens't become about combat.. it becomes about 'gaming the reputation system'.
Again, it is the same system that ws in UO. It will take a new player a month to learn how to exploit the system (and those of us who played UO will know right away). You tell me your character name, and I can have you red and banished within 3 hours of launch.
You example fails at the moment me and my friends don't bother to play these "reputation exploiting games" but are involved primary in the racial conflict and have build up reputation beforehand..
Sure i can't forsee what the in game community be like ..but obviously racial conflict gets rewarded by game mechanics and i expect there will be the primary focus in game and not "how to gank my ally"
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
If a white player attacks a grey player, will he go grey to?
No way or else you end up with this scenario
I get naked. I walk into town and attack you and go gray. You defend yourself and go gray. Everyone in town ganks both of us.. but since i'm naked, I lose nothing and you lose everything. It's even more convenient if it happens to be my friends standing around when I do this.
- Don't email me with questions, requests or comments - I can't answer (NDA, my mom saying that I shouldn't talk to strangers, etc.).
This sound like very credible info.
Yes it does.
_____________________________
At the turn of the century...
In 2008...
Cracked.com voted Roosevelt as the most badass President of all time.
This is his story....
I really hope that all gamers planning on picking DF up does so with the knowledge that this is a open PvP game with great loss and reward.
That means everytime somone wins, there someone who equally greatly loses.
And the one who loses is not NPC, since its a fully fledged PvP game.
Expect to be ganked, gather the whits to give back twofold, rise above your enemie and leave him in the dirt!
Dont get pissed, get even! Its that kind of game.
Also like to say that not all players that wont game the system will leave, theres ALOT of us (incl me) that enjoys playing in a world, a game that is hard. We enjoy the challanges. We are usually the legit ones who feels that if we have to cheat we might aswell quit, we are also the ones who tries to beat the cheater with legit means - thats gives one of the greaters pleasures of all, and the humiliation you give to the whussies that cheat and exploit are like the sweetest fruit youll ever get
. The harder the challange the greater the feeling is when you succeed!
But it has limits to hehe...
FagerCraft - Feeding the trolls on mmorpg.com since 2005.
Care to elaborate abit?
Is it the possible griefing parts you dont like or what is it?
Alignment system?
The alignment system will fail. My proof is every game that had the same feature. The games themselves didn't fail, but the reputation aspect did.
The reason is this. The reputation system is in place to keep PKing from being rampent. You kill players, you get banished to the 'wilderness'. Sounds good in theory... but the problem is the system is so easy to manipulate that the most hardcore PKers will never go red. Most of the people who end up red will be tricked into it. For instance....I make myself 'naked' so I don't lose anything when I die.. I step in your AOE and you go gray.. I let you kill me... congrats.. you are well on your way to being 'thrown into the wilderness'.. and if I do happen to kill you.. i don't get a murder count. It's a no win situation for you. The game has now become 'how do I manipulate the reputation system, or how do I avoid being tricked by the reputation system".
One of the most annoying things in UO was theives. Don't get me wrong, I liked stealing or chasing down a theif... the problem was they were always naked. If they got away,.. good for htem, they got my stuff... if I won and killed them... i got nothing.
You jump in a a mass battle into my AoE and what ? Its not a 1vs 1 ..if our team is organized a "sorry" will do it..if there is no room for sorry then you probably has to face my team ? clan ? alliance ? whole race ? if i deny to kill you and you try to kill me ...
you may find out that if you trick people you will grow a reputation that will hinder you progress within you choosen clan/alliance/race..
You think mass combat will save the reputation system?
You and all your friends are out hunting. I jump in YOUR AOE and you go gray. I attack you. Your friends defend you and kill me. Guess what, they just got a murder count because i was never gray. And now the game becomes " is it worth a murder count to save my friend". Again, the game doens't become about combat.. it becomes about 'gaming the reputation system'.
Again, it is the same system that ws in UO. It will take a new player a month to learn how to exploit the system (and those of us who played UO will know right away). You tell me your character name, and I can have you red and banished within 3 hours of launch.
You example fails at the moment me and my friends don't bother to play these "reputation exploiting games" but are involved primary in the racial conflict and have build up reputation beforehand..
True. You can certainly chose not to use the exploits, but that won't prevent people from using them on you. Players always overestimate the concept of 'player justice'. In most games, there will be moments where it works.... nice players will run through a known red hangout and kill all the badguys... but for the most part, the people who game the system are the majority.
Again, tell me your characters name, and I'm sure within 3 hours that I can make you 'red' and be banished from town. That is really one of the ironys of pvp games... you have a gameplay forced on you that you probably don't want. Players may want to just kill monsters or chop trees, but guess what, that red is going to force his gameplay on you. You may want to only deal with racial conflicts, but guess what, those noto-pks are going to force their gamestyle on you.
it sounds like a good system. numbers for actions can always be tweaked to balance it all.
I wonder about re percusions for hitting people with healing spells. what if I heal a red, or enemy race? essentially helping people commit crimes without doing damage.
in guildwars you could heal the enemy team, with aoe spells. you could heal enemy monsters in a pve group just to grief and for giggles.
My blog:
Azrile, what is with your hate-on? It seems like you are froathing at the mouth, stoking up every thread possible on this issue. Yes this feature brings potential consequences as well as benefits: glass half full/half empty, it is up to each player to determine which works for them. Do you want to play WoW for the rest of your life?
The picture that you are painting is the worst case scenario and this is without any direct experience with the game itself. For this to happen the griefed players would have make zero effort to manage their surroundings: careless use of AoE, finishing off blue players, failing to leave hot spots, failing to have recon, etc.
IMO Aventuring should be commended for risking making a social MMO instead you seem to be demanding a perfect social system. Do you think that is reasonable? How many governments have been able to create a perfect social system? Do you expect that an entertainment software company should deliver one?
When you naked hit me in town, the guars will whipe you out since you engaed in pvp in town.
If your naked and hitting me in the open i got the choice to kill you and go grey to for a few mins, or laugh and walk away.
If your really the stupid to hit back on a naked grey player seeing shitloads of people staring at you around you, then holy crap, you deserved it.
Im sorry but that scenario is really stupid. this system was in Lineage2 and worked perfectly. Difference is L2 had waaay less AoE attacks that would be exploitable to force ppl to go purp (it was hard being a warlord thou since he had almost all AoE attacks only).
FagerCraft - Feeding the trolls on mmorpg.com since 2005.
I don't understand why people worry about stuff like this, it's a pvp game and you have to expect pvp. To me that means cheating, scamming, fighting, manipulating game mechanics ect basically anything that isn't outright botting / hacking is fare game. People seem to want games like the real life activity in which people wear padded fat suits and hit each other with foam battens. Come off it guys it's so lame, lets have games where real life emotion is stirred up whether it be anger, extreme animosity, fear, joy ect, much more entertaining imo.
I really hope that all gamers planning on picking DF up does so with the knowledge that this is a open PvP game with great loss and reward.
That means everytime somone wins, there someone who equally greatly loses.
And the one who loses is not NPC, since its a fully fledged PvP game.
Expect to be ganked, gather the whits to give back twofold, rise above your enemie and leave him in the dirt!
Dont get pissed, get even! Its that kind of game.
Also like to say that not all players that wont game the system will leave, theres ALOT of us (incl me) that enjoys playing in a world, a game that is hard. We enjoy the challanges. We are usually the legit ones who feels that if we have to cheat we might aswell quit, we are also the ones who tries to beat the cheater with legit means - thats gives one of the greaters pleasures of all, and the humiliation you give to the whussies that cheat and exploit are like the sweetest fruit youll ever get
. The harder the challange the greater the feeling is when you succeed!
But it has limits to hehe...
There are so many situations where you are just wrong. Some times there is no justice.
Naked thieves/pks are one example. They may come after you 10 times, and you win 9 times. But they are naked so you win nothing.. but that one time they win, they get your stuff.
I'm all for a game where I can get ganked while out mining or chopping wood.. or killing mobs. I'm all for chasing down a player, only to have his friends shop up and gank me.
But the things in this thread are going to be the norm... the exploiting and cheating becomes the norm, not the exception. Like I said, in UO... the players who went Red from killing players were laughed at. The players who killed players and never went gray are the norm.
Examples of two different MMORPG's.
World of Warcraft
Player 1: Looking to buy an epic greatsword.
Player 2: I have one meet me in main city.
Player 1: Here is the gold.
(Gives gold)
Player 2: Here is your sword.
(Gives sword)
Player 1: Thank you have a nice day!
Darkfall
Player 1: Looking to buy an epic greatsword.
Player 2: I have one meet me in main city.
Player 1: Here is the gold.
(Attempts to trade)
Player 2: I have a different way of trading!
(Twenty guild mates of player 2 rush player 1, killing player 1 in seconds and looting his corpse of the gold)
Player 1: (Cries)
_____________________________
At the turn of the century...
In 2008...
Cracked.com voted Roosevelt as the most badass President of all time.
This is his story....
I'm not really hating or frothing.. I'm enjoying this conversation. Game system, and especially pking 'rulesets' are fascinating to me... from UO to Ashen Empires etc. So people commenting on 'player justice' and stuff are fascinating to me. they are doing something that has already been done before but they think it will be different.
The entire Red-Gray-Blue system does not work. The majority of players will just circumvent it.. so why even bother with it. The people who do the most killing won't go red, the people who go gray will have done nothing wrong etc etc. Why not try something new? You said Aventure should be commended for taking a risk? they aren't really doing that, they are just putting in a system that has already been proven to be majorly flawed. If they actually did something new, then I'd love to talk about that. But if they are only going to do the UO thing, then why not talk about how it failed in UO.
ooh.. I remember that. In UO. a theif has a much greater chance of stealing something if they've seen it ( last object). So you dupe someone into showing you something, and as soon as it goes back into their backpack, you steal it and run
Come to me my pretty valorite Greatsword LOL