What i did, was post my beliefs about religion on a rant blog i have on myspace. They just started to counter some of my points.
"First Christianity: Part
A of my conclusion is : If there is a god, and a heaven, and you do not
believe in either, you will not be punished in any way. Is this god not supposed to be the "Merciful God"?
So there is no vice in not participating in any kind of worship. Part
B of my conclusion: If Jesus really gave his life for you, than he
would rather see you live it to the fullest, than spend your time
thanking him. For, if Jesus was so humble and omnipotent as
some may claim, than he would deny the need for hours of your life
every week be committed to him. Part C of my conclusion: Those
who live life constructively and do not worship, will be placed in line
for salvation in front of those who worship but then continue to lie
and dishonor themselves. Those who call themselves Christians,
worship, and then go and sin the other six days of the week will be
seen as untrustworthy in the eyes of god. For they commit themselves to
him, but then turn their backs on him, asking for forgiveness week
after week."
Well, as far as I am concerned, Christ's work on the cross forgive all sin, including whateer sin their might be for unbelief.
Thanking Christ is not something that helps Christ, but helps the believer. Just as well you have an agape (overflowinmg, gracious love) with another human being it benefits you, just so with Christ. You worship God in Christ to draw yourself closer to Him, because a life with Him is better.
Jesus needs NOTHING from you. Not sure where you got that idea, it's certainly not in the Bible.
Salvation has nothing to do with how good you are -- it is purely the product of God's grace. He sacrificed his own Son on the Cross to show you it is a done deal, and infinte being who was the intersection of God and man paid the bill -- so you have nothing you need to do.
That doesn't mean you should sin -- no, sinning sucks, and the more you sin the more it will taste like ash. The word "sin" comes from a Greek word which means "to fall short" it means you are not living your life to your fullest potential. This is why we should not sin. It makes us less than we can be. To giveup sin IS to live your life to its fullest -- that's part of what this is about.
Love God, love yourself, love all men. The rest is details.
Now, the beauty of Christianity is all are free in Christ to come to their own conclusions in that freedom. That is why Christianity is anything but organized religion. As far as I have seen it is the most disorganized religion in history. Tons of groups, denominations, fellowships and missions.
All believers are priests and servants. Celebrate that.
God is truth. If a discovery in science is true, then it also brings one closer to God. Explore His creation. He wants you to.
Many Christians disagree with my ideas; and I am okay with that. It's for freedom that Christ set us free. Stand fast in that Liberty and don't be burdened by a yoke of bondage.
If anything I've said helps you, Glory to God. If not, feel free to ignore it.
I am just curious. I've been trying to explain my thoughts to one of my friends, and it is growing more and more into a heated battle, rather than a discussion. Any advice?
Eh i got nothing, i have friends from all sides and i never push my beliefs on them and i am always happy to hear them out, some people need to take a chill pill lol.
"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand." - Lewis Thomas
What i did, was post my beliefs about religion on a rant blog i have on myspace. They just started to counter some of my points.
"First Christianity: Part
A of my conclusion is : If there is a god, and a heaven, and you do not
believe in either, you will not be punished in any way. Is this god not supposed to be the "Merciful God"?
So there is no vice in not participating in any kind of worship. Part
B of my conclusion: If Jesus really gave his life for you, than he
would rather see you live it to the fullest, than spend your time
thanking him. For, if Jesus was so humble and omnipotent as
some may claim, than he would deny the need for hours of your life
every week be committed to him. Part C of my conclusion: Those
who live life constructively and do not worship, will be placed in line
for salvation in front of those who worship but then continue to lie
and dishonor themselves. Those who call themselves Christians,
worship, and then go and sin the other six days of the week will be
seen as untrustworthy in the eyes of god. For they commit themselves to
him, but then turn their backs on him, asking for forgiveness week
after week."
Well, as far as I am concerned, Christ's work on the cross forgive all sin, including whateer sin their might be for unbelief.
Thanking Christ is not something that helps Christ, but helps the believer. Just as well you have an agape (overflowinmg, gracious love) with another human being it benefits you, just so with Christ. You worship God in Christ to draw yourself closer to Him, because a life with Him is better.
Jesus needs NOTHING from you. Not sure where you got that idea, it's certainly not in the Bible.
Salvation has nothing to do with how good you are -- it is purely the product of God's grace. He sacrificed his own Son on the Cross to show you it is a done deal, and infinte being who was the intersection of God and man paid the bill -- so you have nothing you need to do.
That doesn't mean you should sin -- no, sinning sucks, and the more you sin the more it will taste like ash. The word "sin" comes from a Greek word which means "to fall short" it means you are not living your life to your fullest potential. This is why we should not sin. It makes us less than we can be. To giveup sin IS to live your life to its fullest -- that's part of what this is about.
Love God, love yourself, love all men. The rest is details.
Now, the beauty of Christianity is all are free in Christ to come to their own conclusions in that freedom. That is why Christianity is anything but organized religion. As far as I have seen it is the most disorganized religion in history. Tons of groups, denominations, fellowships and missions.
All believers are priests and servants. Celebrate that.
God is truth. If a discovery in science is true, then it also brings one closer to God. Explore His creation. He wants you to.
Many Christians disagree with my ideas; and I am okay with that. It's for freedom that Christ set us free. Stand fast in that Liberty and don't be burdened by a yoke of bondage.
If anything I've said helps you, Glory to God. If not, feel free to ignore it.
Actually that was a pretty good read, you had some good points. But to get to heaven is not by love alone. First you believe that Jesus is your savior and he died on the cross for your sins. Then you repent, you break down from your sins and understand your sins and you did wrong. Your broken. Then you get baptized. Then you read the bible and know God's word. And have a relationship with God so you can get closer to him so he can let you in his kingdom so you can be forever with your maker where everyone is attended to be.
What i did, was post my beliefs about religion on a rant blog i have on myspace. They just started to counter some of my points.
"First Christianity: Part
A of my conclusion is : If there is a god, and a heaven, and you do not
believe in either, you will not be punished in any way. Is this god not supposed to be the "Merciful God"?
So there is no vice in not participating in any kind of worship. Part
B of my conclusion: If Jesus really gave his life for you, than he
would rather see you live it to the fullest, than spend your time
thanking him. For, if Jesus was so humble and omnipotent as
some may claim, than he would deny the need for hours of your life
every week be committed to him. Part C of my conclusion: Those
who live life constructively and do not worship, will be placed in line
for salvation in front of those who worship but then continue to lie
and dishonor themselves. Those who call themselves Christians,
worship, and then go and sin the other six days of the week will be
seen as untrustworthy in the eyes of god. For they commit themselves to
him, but then turn their backs on him, asking for forgiveness week
after week."
Well, as far as I am concerned, Christ's work on the cross forgive all sin, including whateer sin their might be for unbelief.
Thanking Christ is not something that helps Christ, but helps the believer. Just as well you have an agape (overflowinmg, gracious love) with another human being it benefits you, just so with Christ. You worship God in Christ to draw yourself closer to Him, because a life with Him is better.
Jesus needs NOTHING from you. Not sure where you got that idea, it's certainly not in the Bible.
Salvation has nothing to do with how good you are -- it is purely the product of God's grace. He sacrificed his own Son on the Cross to show you it is a done deal, and infinte being who was the intersection of God and man paid the bill -- so you have nothing you need to do.
That doesn't mean you should sin -- no, sinning sucks, and the more you sin the more it will taste like ash. The word "sin" comes from a Greek word which means "to fall short" it means you are not living your life to your fullest potential. This is why we should not sin. It makes us less than we can be. To giveup sin IS to live your life to its fullest -- that's part of what this is about.
Love God, love yourself, love all men. The rest is details.
Now, the beauty of Christianity is all are free in Christ to come to their own conclusions in that freedom. That is why Christianity is anything but organized religion. As far as I have seen it is the most disorganized religion in history. Tons of groups, denominations, fellowships and missions.
All believers are priests and servants. Celebrate that.
God is truth. If a discovery in science is true, then it also brings one closer to God. Explore His creation. He wants you to.
Many Christians disagree with my ideas; and I am okay with that. It's for freedom that Christ set us free. Stand fast in that Liberty and don't be burdened by a yoke of bondage.
If anything I've said helps you, Glory to God. If not, feel free to ignore it.
Actually that was a pretty good read, you had some good points. But to get to heaven is not by love alone. First you believe that Jesus is your savior and he died on the cross for your sins. Then you repent, you break down from your sins and understand your sins and you did wrong. Your broken. Then you get baptized. Then you read the bible and know God's word. And have a relationship with God so you can get closer to him so he can let you in his kingdom so you can be forever with your maker where everyone is attended to be.
I respectfully disagree. What you are saying is that my salvation comes from my work, not from God's love and Grace. It means I am King and Christ is not.
I certainly can see how one can come to your conclusions by making certain decisions about how you view God's word, but I choose another view of the same data.
Originally posted by Fishermage Well, as far as I am concerned, Christ's work on the cross forgive all sin, including whateer sin their might be for unbelief.
Thanking Christ is not something that helps Christ, but helps the believer. Just as well you have an agape (overflowinmg, gracious love) with another human being it benefits you, just so with Christ. You worship God in Christ to draw yourself closer to Him, because a life with Him is better. Jesus needs NOTHING from you. Not sure where you got that idea, it's certainly not in the Bible. Salvation has nothing to do with how good you are -- it is purely the product of God's grace. He sacrificed his own Son on the Cross to show you it is a done deal, and infinte being who was the intersection of God and man paid the bill -- so you have nothing you need to do. That doesn't mean you should sin -- no, sinning sucks, and the more you sin the more it will taste like ash. The word "sin" comes from a Greek word which means "to fall short" it means you are not living your life to your fullest potential. This is why we should not sin. It makes us less than we can be. To giveup sin IS to live your life to its fullest -- that's part of what this is about. Love God, love yourself, love all men. The rest is details. Now, the beauty of Christianity is all are free in Christ to come to their own conclusions in that freedom. That is why Christianity is anything but organized religion. As far as I have seen it is the most disorganized religion in history. Tons of groups, denominations, fellowships and missions. All believers are priests and servants. Celebrate that. God is truth. If a discovery in science is true, then it also brings one closer to God. Explore His creation. He wants you to. Many Christians disagree with my ideas; and I am okay with that. It's for freedom that Christ set us free. Stand fast in that Liberty and don't be burdened by a yoke of bondage. If anything I've said helps you, Glory to God. If not, feel free to ignore it.
Actually that was a pretty good read, you had some good points. But to get to heaven is not by love alone. First you believe that Jesus is your savior and he died on the cross for your sins. Then you repent, you break down from your sins and understand your sins and you did wrong. Your broken. Then you get baptized. Then you read the bible and know God's word. And have a relationship with God so you can get closer to him so he can let you in his kingdom so you can be forever with your maker where everyone is attended to be.
Not by love alone, but not by works either. I would edit your post just a bit. You believe that Christ died for your sins and accept him as you Lord and savior. Stop right there. I agree with you on that. But that's all that is necessary to be saved. The rest are works that cannot do anything to get you to heaven. But I would agree that you do them to show obedience to Christ. Accepting him as your Lord means that you should follow his commands. Be baptized, yes. Study his word, yes. Pray to God through Christ, yes. But those things are not required for salvation. They should be done because you love him.
Originally posted by Fishermage Well, as far as I am concerned, Christ's work on the cross forgive all sin, including whateer sin their might be for unbelief.
Thanking Christ is not something that helps Christ, but helps the believer. Just as well you have an agape (overflowinmg, gracious love) with another human being it benefits you, just so with Christ. You worship God in Christ to draw yourself closer to Him, because a life with Him is better. Jesus needs NOTHING from you. Not sure where you got that idea, it's certainly not in the Bible. Salvation has nothing to do with how good you are -- it is purely the product of God's grace. He sacrificed his own Son on the Cross to show you it is a done deal, and infinte being who was the intersection of God and man paid the bill -- so you have nothing you need to do. That doesn't mean you should sin -- no, sinning sucks, and the more you sin the more it will taste like ash. The word "sin" comes from a Greek word which means "to fall short" it means you are not living your life to your fullest potential. This is why we should not sin. It makes us less than we can be. To giveup sin IS to live your life to its fullest -- that's part of what this is about. Love God, love yourself, love all men. The rest is details. Now, the beauty of Christianity is all are free in Christ to come to their own conclusions in that freedom. That is why Christianity is anything but organized religion. As far as I have seen it is the most disorganized religion in history. Tons of groups, denominations, fellowships and missions. All believers are priests and servants. Celebrate that. God is truth. If a discovery in science is true, then it also brings one closer to God. Explore His creation. He wants you to. Many Christians disagree with my ideas; and I am okay with that. It's for freedom that Christ set us free. Stand fast in that Liberty and don't be burdened by a yoke of bondage. If anything I've said helps you, Glory to God. If not, feel free to ignore it.
Actually that was a pretty good read, you had some good points. But to get to heaven is not by love alone. First you believe that Jesus is your savior and he died on the cross for your sins. Then you repent, you break down from your sins and understand your sins and you did wrong. Your broken. Then you get baptized. Then you read the bible and know God's word. And have a relationship with God so you can get closer to him so he can let you in his kingdom so you can be forever with your maker where everyone is attended to be.
Not by love alone, but not by works either. I would edit your post just a bit. You believe that Christ died for your sins and accept him as you Lord and savior. Stop right there. I agree with you on that. But that's all that is necessary to be saved. The rest are works that cannot do anything to get you to heaven. But I would agree that you do them to show obedience to Christ. Accepting him as your Lord means that you should follow his commands. Be baptized, yes. Study his word, yes. Pray to God through Christ, yes. But those things are not required for salvation. They should be done because you love him.
If you have to accept Him to be saved, then you are in charge of your salvation, not God. That in itself is a work.
Either Christ reconciled the world to Himself or He did not. If I need to do anything, then the world is not reconciled, and He failed.
You are free to believe as you believe. However, I choose to believe in the Good News and not the Bad News.
Originally posted by Fishermage Well, as far as I am concerned, Christ's work on the cross forgive all sin, including whateer sin their might be for unbelief.
Thanking Christ is not something that helps Christ, but helps the believer. Just as well you have an agape (overflowinmg, gracious love) with another human being it benefits you, just so with Christ. You worship God in Christ to draw yourself closer to Him, because a life with Him is better. Jesus needs NOTHING from you. Not sure where you got that idea, it's certainly not in the Bible. Salvation has nothing to do with how good you are -- it is purely the product of God's grace. He sacrificed his own Son on the Cross to show you it is a done deal, and infinte being who was the intersection of God and man paid the bill -- so you have nothing you need to do. That doesn't mean you should sin -- no, sinning sucks, and the more you sin the more it will taste like ash. The word "sin" comes from a Greek word which means "to fall short" it means you are not living your life to your fullest potential. This is why we should not sin. It makes us less than we can be. To giveup sin IS to live your life to its fullest -- that's part of what this is about. Love God, love yourself, love all men. The rest is details. Now, the beauty of Christianity is all are free in Christ to come to their own conclusions in that freedom. That is why Christianity is anything but organized religion. As far as I have seen it is the most disorganized religion in history. Tons of groups, denominations, fellowships and missions. All believers are priests and servants. Celebrate that. God is truth. If a discovery in science is true, then it also brings one closer to God. Explore His creation. He wants you to. Many Christians disagree with my ideas; and I am okay with that. It's for freedom that Christ set us free. Stand fast in that Liberty and don't be burdened by a yoke of bondage. If anything I've said helps you, Glory to God. If not, feel free to ignore it.
Actually that was a pretty good read, you had some good points. But to get to heaven is not by love alone. First you believe that Jesus is your savior and he died on the cross for your sins. Then you repent, you break down from your sins and understand your sins and you did wrong. Your broken. Then you get baptized. Then you read the bible and know God's word. And have a relationship with God so you can get closer to him so he can let you in his kingdom so you can be forever with your maker where everyone is attended to be.
Not by love alone, but not by works either. I would edit your post just a bit. You believe that Christ died for your sins and accept him as you Lord and savior. Stop right there. I agree with you on that. But that's all that is necessary to be saved. The rest are works that cannot do anything to get you to heaven. But I would agree that you do them to show obedience to Christ. Accepting him as your Lord means that you should follow his commands. Be baptized, yes. Study his word, yes. Pray to God through Christ, yes. But those things are not required for salvation. They should be done because you love him.
If you have to accept Him to be saved, then you are in charge of your salvation, not God. That in itself is a work.
Either Christ reconciled the world to Himself or He did not. If I need to do anything, then the world is not reconciled, and He failed.
You are free to believe as you believe. However, I choose to believe in the Good News and not the Bad News.
I actually go by God's word and I use two different versions, NIT and KJV. I don't see how that is a work at all. What verison do you use and if you attend church, which denomonation?
Originally posted by Fishermage Well, as far as I am concerned, Christ's work on the cross forgive all sin, including whateer sin their might be for unbelief.
Thanking Christ is not something that helps Christ, but helps the believer. Just as well you have an agape (overflowinmg, gracious love) with another human being it benefits you, just so with Christ. You worship God in Christ to draw yourself closer to Him, because a life with Him is better. Jesus needs NOTHING from you. Not sure where you got that idea, it's certainly not in the Bible. Salvation has nothing to do with how good you are -- it is purely the product of God's grace. He sacrificed his own Son on the Cross to show you it is a done deal, and infinte being who was the intersection of God and man paid the bill -- so you have nothing you need to do. That doesn't mean you should sin -- no, sinning sucks, and the more you sin the more it will taste like ash. The word "sin" comes from a Greek word which means "to fall short" it means you are not living your life to your fullest potential. This is why we should not sin. It makes us less than we can be. To giveup sin IS to live your life to its fullest -- that's part of what this is about. Love God, love yourself, love all men. The rest is details. Now, the beauty of Christianity is all are free in Christ to come to their own conclusions in that freedom. That is why Christianity is anything but organized religion. As far as I have seen it is the most disorganized religion in history. Tons of groups, denominations, fellowships and missions. All believers are priests and servants. Celebrate that. God is truth. If a discovery in science is true, then it also brings one closer to God. Explore His creation. He wants you to. Many Christians disagree with my ideas; and I am okay with that. It's for freedom that Christ set us free. Stand fast in that Liberty and don't be burdened by a yoke of bondage. If anything I've said helps you, Glory to God. If not, feel free to ignore it.
Actually that was a pretty good read, you had some good points. But to get to heaven is not by love alone. First you believe that Jesus is your savior and he died on the cross for your sins. Then you repent, you break down from your sins and understand your sins and you did wrong. Your broken. Then you get baptized. Then you read the bible and know God's word. And have a relationship with God so you can get closer to him so he can let you in his kingdom so you can be forever with your maker where everyone is attended to be.
Not by love alone, but not by works either. I would edit your post just a bit. You believe that Christ died for your sins and accept him as you Lord and savior. Stop right there. I agree with you on that. But that's all that is necessary to be saved. The rest are works that cannot do anything to get you to heaven. But I would agree that you do them to show obedience to Christ. Accepting him as your Lord means that you should follow his commands. Be baptized, yes. Study his word, yes. Pray to God through Christ, yes. But those things are not required for salvation. They should be done because you love him.
Ah, and interesting way to say. But you forgot repent. You must repent.
Originally posted by Fishermage Well, as far as I am concerned, Christ's work on the cross forgive all sin, including whateer sin their might be for unbelief.
Thanking Christ is not something that helps Christ, but helps the believer. Just as well you have an agape (overflowinmg, gracious love) with another human being it benefits you, just so with Christ. You worship God in Christ to draw yourself closer to Him, because a life with Him is better. Jesus needs NOTHING from you. Not sure where you got that idea, it's certainly not in the Bible. Salvation has nothing to do with how good you are -- it is purely the product of God's grace. He sacrificed his own Son on the Cross to show you it is a done deal, and infinte being who was the intersection of God and man paid the bill -- so you have nothing you need to do. That doesn't mean you should sin -- no, sinning sucks, and the more you sin the more it will taste like ash. The word "sin" comes from a Greek word which means "to fall short" it means you are not living your life to your fullest potential. This is why we should not sin. It makes us less than we can be. To giveup sin IS to live your life to its fullest -- that's part of what this is about. Love God, love yourself, love all men. The rest is details. Now, the beauty of Christianity is all are free in Christ to come to their own conclusions in that freedom. That is why Christianity is anything but organized religion. As far as I have seen it is the most disorganized religion in history. Tons of groups, denominations, fellowships and missions. All believers are priests and servants. Celebrate that. God is truth. If a discovery in science is true, then it also brings one closer to God. Explore His creation. He wants you to. Many Christians disagree with my ideas; and I am okay with that. It's for freedom that Christ set us free. Stand fast in that Liberty and don't be burdened by a yoke of bondage. If anything I've said helps you, Glory to God. If not, feel free to ignore it.
Actually that was a pretty good read, you had some good points. But to get to heaven is not by love alone. First you believe that Jesus is your savior and he died on the cross for your sins. Then you repent, you break down from your sins and understand your sins and you did wrong. Your broken. Then you get baptized. Then you read the bible and know God's word. And have a relationship with God so you can get closer to him so he can let you in his kingdom so you can be forever with your maker where everyone is attended to be.
Not by love alone, but not by works either. I would edit your post just a bit. You believe that Christ died for your sins and accept him as you Lord and savior. Stop right there. I agree with you on that. But that's all that is necessary to be saved. The rest are works that cannot do anything to get you to heaven. But I would agree that you do them to show obedience to Christ. Accepting him as your Lord means that you should follow his commands. Be baptized, yes. Study his word, yes. Pray to God through Christ, yes. But those things are not required for salvation. They should be done because you love him.
If you have to accept Him to be saved, then you are in charge of your salvation, not God. That in itself is a work.
Either Christ reconciled the world to Himself or He did not. If I need to do anything, then the world is not reconciled, and He failed.
You are free to believe as you believe. However, I choose to believe in the Good News and not the Bad News.
I actually go by God's word and I use two different versions, NIT and KJV
I go by it as well, and use oh about ten translations. Plus I check with the Greek with certain scholars when I have deeper questions. For reading purposes, I prefer the NKJV, but I find some of the constructions in other versions compelling.
I also stick with KJV for Psalms. The poetry is best in that one.
Either way I go by God's word as well. I just interpret certain aspects differently than you do. I am cool with that, and I believe so is He.
Originally posted by Fishermage Well, as far as I am concerned, Christ's work on the cross forgive all sin, including whateer sin their might be for unbelief.
Thanking Christ is not something that helps Christ, but helps the believer. Just as well you have an agape (overflowinmg, gracious love) with another human being it benefits you, just so with Christ. You worship God in Christ to draw yourself closer to Him, because a life with Him is better. Jesus needs NOTHING from you. Not sure where you got that idea, it's certainly not in the Bible. Salvation has nothing to do with how good you are -- it is purely the product of God's grace. He sacrificed his own Son on the Cross to show you it is a done deal, and infinte being who was the intersection of God and man paid the bill -- so you have nothing you need to do. That doesn't mean you should sin -- no, sinning sucks, and the more you sin the more it will taste like ash. The word "sin" comes from a Greek word which means "to fall short" it means you are not living your life to your fullest potential. This is why we should not sin. It makes us less than we can be. To giveup sin IS to live your life to its fullest -- that's part of what this is about. Love God, love yourself, love all men. The rest is details. Now, the beauty of Christianity is all are free in Christ to come to their own conclusions in that freedom. That is why Christianity is anything but organized religion. As far as I have seen it is the most disorganized religion in history. Tons of groups, denominations, fellowships and missions. All believers are priests and servants. Celebrate that. God is truth. If a discovery in science is true, then it also brings one closer to God. Explore His creation. He wants you to. Many Christians disagree with my ideas; and I am okay with that. It's for freedom that Christ set us free. Stand fast in that Liberty and don't be burdened by a yoke of bondage. If anything I've said helps you, Glory to God. If not, feel free to ignore it.
Actually that was a pretty good read, you had some good points. But to get to heaven is not by love alone. First you believe that Jesus is your savior and he died on the cross for your sins. Then you repent, you break down from your sins and understand your sins and you did wrong. Your broken. Then you get baptized. Then you read the bible and know God's word. And have a relationship with God so you can get closer to him so he can let you in his kingdom so you can be forever with your maker where everyone is attended to be.
Not by love alone, but not by works either. I would edit your post just a bit. You believe that Christ died for your sins and accept him as you Lord and savior. Stop right there. I agree with you on that. But that's all that is necessary to be saved. The rest are works that cannot do anything to get you to heaven. But I would agree that you do them to show obedience to Christ. Accepting him as your Lord means that you should follow his commands. Be baptized, yes. Study his word, yes. Pray to God through Christ, yes. But those things are not required for salvation. They should be done because you love him.
Ah, and interesting way to say. But you forgot repent. You must repent.
Then you are saved by works, not grace. I disagree with the "need" to repent. Should you repent? of course. It is not necessary for salvation. All that is necessary has been done on the Cross.
Now, IF you accept Christ, and IF the Holy Spirit starts to work on you, you WILL repent, but that's not saying the same thing. Salvation comes before repentance.
Fishermage, whats your view on 1st John 5:7 in KJV. And how its taken out in every other verison. I think that verse, is a important verse. Because it shows the authority I think.
1st John 5:7 in KJV
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost and these three are one.
Not by love alone, but not by works either. I would edit your post just a bit. You believe that Christ died for your sins and accept him as you Lord and savior. Stop right there. I agree with you on that. But that's all that is necessary to be saved. The rest are works that cannot do anything to get you to heaven. But I would agree that you do them to show obedience to Christ. Accepting him as your Lord means that you should follow his commands. Be baptized, yes. Study his word, yes. Pray to God through Christ, yes. But those things are not required for salvation. They should be done because you love him.
If you have to accept Him to be saved, then you are in charge of your salvation, not God. That in itself is a work.
Either Christ reconciled the world to Himself or He did not. If I need to do anything, then the world is not reconciled, and He failed.
You are free to believe as you believe. However, I choose to believe in the Good News and not the Bad News.
Well now we get into the issue of predestination, which is an interesting subject. I struggle with the idea that our place in eternity is determined before we are born, but I don't think I can refute it based on Scripture. "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight." (Eph. 1:4) So I agree completely that God is the one that chooses us, we do not choose Him. However, I do believe that God's choosing us is manifested by our decision to accept Christ. In essence, God works on our hearts until we have no choice but to surrender to Him.
But based on your posts, you seem to believe that all humans, the entire race, are saved and will spend eternity in paradise. Is that the case? I do not believe it to be so. Clearly the Bible talks about a day of judgement when we will all be judged and God will "separate the sheep from the goats" and those who are in Christ will enter into ever lasting joy and those who are not will sadly enter into everlasting contempt.
I missed the edit. I mostly attend my local congregational Church, but I also go to my local Anglican Church because I enjoy traditional Holy Communion.
I tend to be more evangelical than either Church, but I like the folks.
Fishermage, whats your view on 1st John 5:7 in KJV. And how its taken out in every other verison. I think that verse, is a important verse. Because it shows the authority I think. 1st John 5:7 in KJV For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost and these three are one.
I believe it is taken out because it is not found in earlier manuscripts than Textus receptus, upon which KJV was based.
I have no problem with is theologically,k or psychologically. It is a declaration of the trinity, which I already accept through the inference in other places
Not by love alone, but not by works either. I would edit your post just a bit. You believe that Christ died for your sins and accept him as you Lord and savior. Stop right there. I agree with you on that. But that's all that is necessary to be saved. The rest are works that cannot do anything to get you to heaven. But I would agree that you do them to show obedience to Christ. Accepting him as your Lord means that you should follow his commands. Be baptized, yes. Study his word, yes. Pray to God through Christ, yes. But those things are not required for salvation. They should be done because you love him.
If you have to accept Him to be saved, then you are in charge of your salvation, not God. That in itself is a work.
Either Christ reconciled the world to Himself or He did not. If I need to do anything, then the world is not reconciled, and He failed.
You are free to believe as you believe. However, I choose to believe in the Good News and not the Bad News.
Well now we get into the issue of predestination, which is an interesting subject. I struggle with the idea that our place in eternity is determined before we are born, but I don't think I can refute it based on Scripture. "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight." (Eph. 1:4) So I agree completely that God is the one that chooses us, we do not choose Him. However, I do believe that God's choosing us is manifested by our decision to accept Christ. In essence, God works on our hearts until we have no choice but to surrender to Him.
But based on your posts, you seem to believe that all humans, the entire race, are saved and will spend eternity in paradise. Is that the case? I do not believe it to be so. Clearly the Bible talks about a day of judgement when we will all be judged and God will "separate the sheep from the goats" and those who are in Christ will enter into ever lasting joy and those who are not will sadly enter into everlasting contempt.
But it also says that Christ came to save all men, first the believer and then the rest
It says similar things all over the place. It also says what you are saying. Interesting paradox.
You see, scripture plainly says BOTH things. I choose to reconcile it one way, you another, I feel mine is more consistent with an infinite being atoning for finite sin.
It is not mercy if I have to accept His love to get it -- it's then a transaction. Insurance. I don't buy that. You are free to believe as you do, although I feel my theology gives more joy in Christ. It also makes more sense to me from the whole of scripture.
Not by love alone, but not by works either. I would edit your post just a bit. You believe that Christ died for your sins and accept him as you Lord and savior. Stop right there. I agree with you on that. But that's all that is necessary to be saved. The rest are works that cannot do anything to get you to heaven. But I would agree that you do them to show obedience to Christ. Accepting him as your Lord means that you should follow his commands. Be baptized, yes. Study his word, yes. Pray to God through Christ, yes. But those things are not required for salvation. They should be done because you love him.
Ah, and interesting way to say. But you forgot repent. You must repent.
I know a few Christians who I believe are saved, but still sin on a regular basis. Personally, I know I still sin routinely, however, it is not my intent to do so, it is simply my nature. So what I mean by they sin on a regular basis, is that they don't appear to show much of a desire to repent of their sins. I do not believe that costs them their salvation, but I do believe their relationship with the Lord suffers. I also believe that some Christians who refuse to repent of their sins end up being called home by the Lord because their use on earth may have reached its end. But that is God's decision.
Sorry, but yes I believe that EVERYTHING: not just humans -- but dogs, cats, license plates, stereo systems, clones, you name it -- is redeemed in Christ already. I, upon rising, shall draw all to myself. TO me, all means all. I take THAT literally.
I believe that Christ is slowly but surely remaking the world -- THIS WORLD, and some day He will return to finish bringing it all together. Yes, I believe in a Hell, BUT I believe that Hell is fully contained in God's grace, and one can always get up from that table.
Using Christ's description of a wedding feast. Ever go to a wedding, where there was one table where all the rotten relatives are -- the folks who insist on not having a good time, who sit in judgement of all?
That lousy table is Hell.
Now, those people are already AT the party, they are already free to get up and dance, but they don't. God however will never accept THEIR rejection -- he will always be there, infinitely waiting. That is separation and judgement. It MIGHT be a VERY long time (ages, as scripture says). However, ages are nothing to God. Just a blink for Him.
Again this is just a metaphor I made up from a thorough reading of the parables, where Christ talks a lot about Judgement. I know you don't agree. I am fine with that.
Not by love alone, but not by works either. I would edit your post just a bit. You believe that Christ died for your sins and accept him as you Lord and savior. Stop right there. I agree with you on that. But that's all that is necessary to be saved. The rest are works that cannot do anything to get you to heaven. But I would agree that you do them to show obedience to Christ. Accepting him as your Lord means that you should follow his commands. Be baptized, yes. Study his word, yes. Pray to God through Christ, yes. But those things are not required for salvation. They should be done because you love him.
Ah, and interesting way to say. But you forgot repent. You must repent.
I know a few Christians who I believe are saved, but still sin on a regular basis. Personally, I know I still sin routinely, however, it is not my intent to do so, it is simply my nature. So what I mean by they sin on a regular basis, is that they don't appear to show much of a desire to repent of their sins. I do not believe that costs them their salvation, but I do believe their relationship with the Lord suffers. I also believe that some Christians who refuse to repent of their sins end up being called home by the Lord because their use on earth may have reached its end. But that is God's decision.
Yup, I sin, repent, sin repent. It's how sanctification works through the discipline of the Holy Spirit. I find once I think I've got one sin beat, a new on crops up.
Not by love alone, but not by works either. I would edit your post just a bit. You believe that Christ died for your sins and accept him as you Lord and savior. Stop right there. I agree with you on that. But that's all that is necessary to be saved. The rest are works that cannot do anything to get you to heaven. But I would agree that you do them to show obedience to Christ. Accepting him as your Lord means that you should follow his commands. Be baptized, yes. Study his word, yes. Pray to God through Christ, yes. But those things are not required for salvation. They should be done because you love him.
If you have to accept Him to be saved, then you are in charge of your salvation, not God. That in itself is a work.
Either Christ reconciled the world to Himself or He did not. If I need to do anything, then the world is not reconciled, and He failed.
You are free to believe as you believe. However, I choose to believe in the Good News and not the Bad News.
Well now we get into the issue of predestination, which is an interesting subject. I struggle with the idea that our place in eternity is determined before we are born, but I don't think I can refute it based on Scripture. "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight." (Eph. 1:4) So I agree completely that God is the one that chooses us, we do not choose Him. However, I do believe that God's choosing us is manifested by our decision to accept Christ. In essence, God works on our hearts until we have no choice but to surrender to Him.
But based on your posts, you seem to believe that all humans, the entire race, are saved and will spend eternity in paradise. Is that the case? I do not believe it to be so. Clearly the Bible talks about a day of judgement when we will all be judged and God will "separate the sheep from the goats" and those who are in Christ will enter into ever lasting joy and those who are not will sadly enter into everlasting contempt.
But it also says that Christ came to save all men, first the believer and then the rest
It says similar things all over the place. It also says what you are saying. Interesting paradox.
You see, scripture plainly says BOTH things. I choose to reconcile it one way, you another, I feel mine is more consistent with an infinite being atoning for finite sin.
It is not mercy if I have to accept His love to get it -- it's then a transaction. Insurance. I don't buy that. You are free to believe as you do, although I feel my theology gives more joy in Christ. It also makes more sense to me from the whole of scripture.
Well I respect your opinion as well and I do think you express much wisdom in many areas, but I have to patently disagree with you on that. In order to reach that conclusion, you simply have to ignore, dismiss or find a way to explain an awful lot of Scripture. I mean you see God wiping out a lot of humans because of their sins in the Old Testament. He wiped out the entire human race except for Noah and his family and was grieved that he even created the human race because they had become so wicked in his sight. Even his chosen people, the Jews, he dealt with harshly when they disobeyed him. When Moses received the 1o commandments and the Jews decided to make a golden calf and worship it, God commanded that the worshipers be killed and 3,000 people died that day.
Then Christ came into the world and salvation was made available to the entire human race, yes. But just because salvation is available to all does not mean that all will be saved. Scripture is concluded with the book of Revelation and it says in chapter 20 that the book of life will be opened and whoever's name is written in the book of life will inherit the new heaven and new earth, but whoever's name is not found in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire reserved for the devil and his angels. Another harsh reality, but I'm afraid I cannot water down the Word of God. If you are reading this and it is making you upset, please don't become angry with me, I'm just the messenger.
Not by love alone, but not by works either. I would edit your post just a bit. You believe that Christ died for your sins and accept him as you Lord and savior. Stop right there. I agree with you on that. But that's all that is necessary to be saved. The rest are works that cannot do anything to get you to heaven. But I would agree that you do them to show obedience to Christ. Accepting him as your Lord means that you should follow his commands. Be baptized, yes. Study his word, yes. Pray to God through Christ, yes. But those things are not required for salvation. They should be done because you love him.
If you have to accept Him to be saved, then you are in charge of your salvation, not God. That in itself is a work.
Either Christ reconciled the world to Himself or He did not. If I need to do anything, then the world is not reconciled, and He failed.
You are free to believe as you believe. However, I choose to believe in the Good News and not the Bad News.
Well now we get into the issue of predestination, which is an interesting subject. I struggle with the idea that our place in eternity is determined before we are born, but I don't think I can refute it based on Scripture. "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight." (Eph. 1:4) So I agree completely that God is the one that chooses us, we do not choose Him. However, I do believe that God's choosing us is manifested by our decision to accept Christ. In essence, God works on our hearts until we have no choice but to surrender to Him.
But based on your posts, you seem to believe that all humans, the entire race, are saved and will spend eternity in paradise. Is that the case? I do not believe it to be so. Clearly the Bible talks about a day of judgement when we will all be judged and God will "separate the sheep from the goats" and those who are in Christ will enter into ever lasting joy and those who are not will sadly enter into everlasting contempt.
But it also says that Christ came to save all men, first the believer and then the rest
It says similar things all over the place. It also says what you are saying. Interesting paradox.
You see, scripture plainly says BOTH things. I choose to reconcile it one way, you another, I feel mine is more consistent with an infinite being atoning for finite sin.
It is not mercy if I have to accept His love to get it -- it's then a transaction. Insurance. I don't buy that. You are free to believe as you do, although I feel my theology gives more joy in Christ. It also makes more sense to me from the whole of scripture.
Well I respect your opinion as well and I do think you express much wisdom in many areas, but I have to patently disagree with you on that. In order to reach that conclusion, you simply have to ignore, dismiss or find a way to explain an awful lot of Scripture. I mean you see God wiping out a lot of humans because of their sins in the Old Testament. He wiped out the entire human race except for Noah and his family and was grieved that he even created the human race because they had become so wicked in his sight. Even his chosen people, the Jews, he dealt with harshly when they disobeyed him. When Moses received the 1o commandments and the Jews decided to make a golden calf and worship it, God commanded that the worshipers be killed and 3,000 people died that day.
Then Christ came into the world and salvation was made available to the entire human race, yes. But just because salvation is available to all does not mean that all will be saved. Scripture is concluded with the book of Revelation and it says in chapter 20 that the book of life will be opened and whoever's name is written in the book of life will inherit the new heaven and new earth, but whoever's name is not found in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire reserved for the devil and his angels. Another harsh reality, but I'm afraid I cannot water down the Word of God. If you are reading this and it is making you upset, please don't become angry with me, I'm just the messenger.
You have to ignore a whole lot of scripture as well, or re-interpret it in an a priori way to eliminate its meaning. We both have to do that to believe what we believe -- I choose to err on the side of love, you choose to err on the side of wrath.
For a moment, let us see what YOU are ignoring. This is just a few examples:
Romans 5:18; 2 Corinthians 5: 16-19; 1 Corinthians 15: 22-26; 1 Timothy 4: 9-10; Rev 5:13; John 12:32; 1 Peter 3: 18-22; Colossians 1:15-20; 1 Timothy 2:16; The parable of the lost sheep, the parable of the prodigal son.
Those are just a quick list of the few I've blogged about in the past. I try and share some infinite grace teaching every week, Sunday when I have the time, sometimes Mondays.
We are BOTH watering down the Word Of God -- well, I am watering it UP, and you are watering it DOWN.
Nothing makes me upset. You should know by now I don't often get upset, only when I see real people really suffer. A theological discussion of the Word does nothing but get me all tingly lol. I love it.
I completely respect your position however. For the first 500 years, most of the Church fathers preached what I preached, and that changed over time. Christians have struggled with this since then.
happy to struggle along with you, brother. At this moment, however, I am VERY tired. I'll probably crash before I see your answer.
Originally posted by Zindaihas. Well I respect your opinion as well and I do think you express much wisdom in many areas, but I have to patently disagree with you on that. In order to reach that conclusion, you simply have to ignore, dismiss or find a way to explain an awful lot of Scripture. I mean you see God wiping out a lot of humans because of their sins in the Old Testament. He wiped out the entire human race except for Noah and his family and was grieved that he even created the human race because they had become so wicked in his sight. Even his chosen people, the Jews, he dealt with harshly when they disobeyed him. When Moses received the 1o commandments and the Jews decided to make a golden calf and worship it, God commanded that the worshipers be killed and 3,000 people died that day. Then Christ came into the world and salvation was made available to the entire human race, yes. But just because salvation is available to all does not mean that all will be saved. Scripture is concluded with the book of Revelation and it says in chapter 20 that the book of life will be opened and whoever's name is written in the book of life will inherit the new heaven and new earth, but whoever's name is not found in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire reserved for the devil and his angels. Another harsh reality, but I'm afraid I cannot water down the Word of God. If you are reading this and it is making you upset, please don't become angry with me, I'm just the messenger.
You have to ignore a whole lot of scripture as well, or re-interpret it in an a priori way to eliminate its meaning. We both have to do that to believe what we believe -- I choose to err on the side of love, you choose to err on the side of wrath.
For a moment, let us see what YOU are ignoring. This is just a few examples:
Romans 5:18; 2 Corinthians 5: 16-19; 1 Corinthians 15: 22-26; 1 Timothy 4: 9-10; Rev 5:13; John 12:32; 1 Peter 3: 18-22; Colossians 1:15-20; 1 Timothy 2:16; The parable of the lost sheep, the parable of the prodigal son.
Those are just a quick list of the few I've blogged about in the past. I try and share some infinite grace teaching every week, Sunday when I have the time, sometimes Mondays.
We are BOTH watering down the Word Of God -- well, I am watering it UP, and you are watering it DOWN.
Nothing makes me upset. You should know by now I don't often get upset, only when I see real people really suffer. A theological discussion of the Word does nothing but get me all tingly lol. I love it.
I completely respect your position however. For the first 500 years, most of the Church fathers preached what I preached, and that changed over time. Christians have struggled with this since then.
happy to struggle along with you, brother. At this moment, however, I am VERY tired. I'll probably crash before I see your answer.
Since you are off to bed and since a response will take a while to type, I'll hold off for now. I'll try to respond tomorrow. Night.
As an atheist, I'd have to say: Don't. Don't discuss religion, because it's pointless to do so. There is neither right nor wrong, but personal preference involved. You might as well discuss why some people like marshmallows and others don't.
If it's your friend and you have strong beliefs on the subject, but know that he could be offended: Don't.
I'm sick and tired of people pushing their beliefs on me in this country and while I am tempted to lash out, I realize that it really wouldn't make me any better than they are.
You could even make an example for them by showing just how humble and considerate an atheist can be: When they see that you are good and know that it isn't the fear of an afterlife compelling you to do so, they will respect you (and maybe even your beliefs).
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
Comments
Well, as far as I am concerned, Christ's work on the cross forgive all sin, including whateer sin their might be for unbelief.
Thanking Christ is not something that helps Christ, but helps the believer. Just as well you have an agape (overflowinmg, gracious love) with another human being it benefits you, just so with Christ. You worship God in Christ to draw yourself closer to Him, because a life with Him is better.
Jesus needs NOTHING from you. Not sure where you got that idea, it's certainly not in the Bible.
Salvation has nothing to do with how good you are -- it is purely the product of God's grace. He sacrificed his own Son on the Cross to show you it is a done deal, and infinte being who was the intersection of God and man paid the bill -- so you have nothing you need to do.
That doesn't mean you should sin -- no, sinning sucks, and the more you sin the more it will taste like ash. The word "sin" comes from a Greek word which means "to fall short" it means you are not living your life to your fullest potential. This is why we should not sin. It makes us less than we can be. To giveup sin IS to live your life to its fullest -- that's part of what this is about.
Love God, love yourself, love all men. The rest is details.
Now, the beauty of Christianity is all are free in Christ to come to their own conclusions in that freedom. That is why Christianity is anything but organized religion. As far as I have seen it is the most disorganized religion in history. Tons of groups, denominations, fellowships and missions.
All believers are priests and servants. Celebrate that.
God is truth. If a discovery in science is true, then it also brings one closer to God. Explore His creation. He wants you to.
Many Christians disagree with my ideas; and I am okay with that. It's for freedom that Christ set us free. Stand fast in that Liberty and don't be burdened by a yoke of bondage.
If anything I've said helps you, Glory to God. If not, feel free to ignore it.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Eh i got nothing, i have friends from all sides and i never push my beliefs on them and i am always happy to hear them out, some people need to take a chill pill lol.
"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand."
- Lewis Thomas
Well, as far as I am concerned, Christ's work on the cross forgive all sin, including whateer sin their might be for unbelief.
Thanking Christ is not something that helps Christ, but helps the believer. Just as well you have an agape (overflowinmg, gracious love) with another human being it benefits you, just so with Christ. You worship God in Christ to draw yourself closer to Him, because a life with Him is better.
Jesus needs NOTHING from you. Not sure where you got that idea, it's certainly not in the Bible.
Salvation has nothing to do with how good you are -- it is purely the product of God's grace. He sacrificed his own Son on the Cross to show you it is a done deal, and infinte being who was the intersection of God and man paid the bill -- so you have nothing you need to do.
That doesn't mean you should sin -- no, sinning sucks, and the more you sin the more it will taste like ash. The word "sin" comes from a Greek word which means "to fall short" it means you are not living your life to your fullest potential. This is why we should not sin. It makes us less than we can be. To giveup sin IS to live your life to its fullest -- that's part of what this is about.
Love God, love yourself, love all men. The rest is details.
Now, the beauty of Christianity is all are free in Christ to come to their own conclusions in that freedom. That is why Christianity is anything but organized religion. As far as I have seen it is the most disorganized religion in history. Tons of groups, denominations, fellowships and missions.
All believers are priests and servants. Celebrate that.
God is truth. If a discovery in science is true, then it also brings one closer to God. Explore His creation. He wants you to.
Many Christians disagree with my ideas; and I am okay with that. It's for freedom that Christ set us free. Stand fast in that Liberty and don't be burdened by a yoke of bondage.
If anything I've said helps you, Glory to God. If not, feel free to ignore it.
Actually that was a pretty good read, you had some good points. But to get to heaven is not by love alone. First you believe that Jesus is your savior and he died on the cross for your sins. Then you repent, you break down from your sins and understand your sins and you did wrong. Your broken. Then you get baptized. Then you read the bible and know God's word. And have a relationship with God so you can get closer to him so he can let you in his kingdom so you can be forever with your maker where everyone is attended to be.
Well, as far as I am concerned, Christ's work on the cross forgive all sin, including whateer sin their might be for unbelief.
Thanking Christ is not something that helps Christ, but helps the believer. Just as well you have an agape (overflowinmg, gracious love) with another human being it benefits you, just so with Christ. You worship God in Christ to draw yourself closer to Him, because a life with Him is better.
Jesus needs NOTHING from you. Not sure where you got that idea, it's certainly not in the Bible.
Salvation has nothing to do with how good you are -- it is purely the product of God's grace. He sacrificed his own Son on the Cross to show you it is a done deal, and infinte being who was the intersection of God and man paid the bill -- so you have nothing you need to do.
That doesn't mean you should sin -- no, sinning sucks, and the more you sin the more it will taste like ash. The word "sin" comes from a Greek word which means "to fall short" it means you are not living your life to your fullest potential. This is why we should not sin. It makes us less than we can be. To giveup sin IS to live your life to its fullest -- that's part of what this is about.
Love God, love yourself, love all men. The rest is details.
Now, the beauty of Christianity is all are free in Christ to come to their own conclusions in that freedom. That is why Christianity is anything but organized religion. As far as I have seen it is the most disorganized religion in history. Tons of groups, denominations, fellowships and missions.
All believers are priests and servants. Celebrate that.
God is truth. If a discovery in science is true, then it also brings one closer to God. Explore His creation. He wants you to.
Many Christians disagree with my ideas; and I am okay with that. It's for freedom that Christ set us free. Stand fast in that Liberty and don't be burdened by a yoke of bondage.
If anything I've said helps you, Glory to God. If not, feel free to ignore it.
Actually that was a pretty good read, you had some good points. But to get to heaven is not by love alone. First you believe that Jesus is your savior and he died on the cross for your sins. Then you repent, you break down from your sins and understand your sins and you did wrong. Your broken. Then you get baptized. Then you read the bible and know God's word. And have a relationship with God so you can get closer to him so he can let you in his kingdom so you can be forever with your maker where everyone is attended to be.
I respectfully disagree. What you are saying is that my salvation comes from my work, not from God's love and Grace. It means I am King and Christ is not.
I certainly can see how one can come to your conclusions by making certain decisions about how you view God's word, but I choose another view of the same data.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Actually that was a pretty good read, you had some good points. But to get to heaven is not by love alone. First you believe that Jesus is your savior and he died on the cross for your sins. Then you repent, you break down from your sins and understand your sins and you did wrong. Your broken. Then you get baptized. Then you read the bible and know God's word. And have a relationship with God so you can get closer to him so he can let you in his kingdom so you can be forever with your maker where everyone is attended to be.
Not by love alone, but not by works either. I would edit your post just a bit. You believe that Christ died for your sins and accept him as you Lord and savior. Stop right there. I agree with you on that. But that's all that is necessary to be saved. The rest are works that cannot do anything to get you to heaven. But I would agree that you do them to show obedience to Christ. Accepting him as your Lord means that you should follow his commands. Be baptized, yes. Study his word, yes. Pray to God through Christ, yes. But those things are not required for salvation. They should be done because you love him.
Actually that was a pretty good read, you had some good points. But to get to heaven is not by love alone. First you believe that Jesus is your savior and he died on the cross for your sins. Then you repent, you break down from your sins and understand your sins and you did wrong. Your broken. Then you get baptized. Then you read the bible and know God's word. And have a relationship with God so you can get closer to him so he can let you in his kingdom so you can be forever with your maker where everyone is attended to be.
Not by love alone, but not by works either. I would edit your post just a bit. You believe that Christ died for your sins and accept him as you Lord and savior. Stop right there. I agree with you on that. But that's all that is necessary to be saved. The rest are works that cannot do anything to get you to heaven. But I would agree that you do them to show obedience to Christ. Accepting him as your Lord means that you should follow his commands. Be baptized, yes. Study his word, yes. Pray to God through Christ, yes. But those things are not required for salvation. They should be done because you love him.
If you have to accept Him to be saved, then you are in charge of your salvation, not God. That in itself is a work.
Either Christ reconciled the world to Himself or He did not. If I need to do anything, then the world is not reconciled, and He failed.
You are free to believe as you believe. However, I choose to believe in the Good News and not the Bad News.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Do you see what is happening here Bryanbartley?
Several believers, each passionately devoted to Christ and faith in Him as savior, each with a different take on it.
Sweet Liberty!
fishermage.blogspot.com
Actually that was a pretty good read, you had some good points. But to get to heaven is not by love alone. First you believe that Jesus is your savior and he died on the cross for your sins. Then you repent, you break down from your sins and understand your sins and you did wrong. Your broken. Then you get baptized. Then you read the bible and know God's word. And have a relationship with God so you can get closer to him so he can let you in his kingdom so you can be forever with your maker where everyone is attended to be.
Not by love alone, but not by works either. I would edit your post just a bit. You believe that Christ died for your sins and accept him as you Lord and savior. Stop right there. I agree with you on that. But that's all that is necessary to be saved. The rest are works that cannot do anything to get you to heaven. But I would agree that you do them to show obedience to Christ. Accepting him as your Lord means that you should follow his commands. Be baptized, yes. Study his word, yes. Pray to God through Christ, yes. But those things are not required for salvation. They should be done because you love him.
If you have to accept Him to be saved, then you are in charge of your salvation, not God. That in itself is a work.
Either Christ reconciled the world to Himself or He did not. If I need to do anything, then the world is not reconciled, and He failed.
You are free to believe as you believe. However, I choose to believe in the Good News and not the Bad News.
I actually go by God's word and I use two different versions, NIT and KJV. I don't see how that is a work at all. What verison do you use and if you attend church, which denomonation?
Actually that was a pretty good read, you had some good points. But to get to heaven is not by love alone. First you believe that Jesus is your savior and he died on the cross for your sins. Then you repent, you break down from your sins and understand your sins and you did wrong. Your broken. Then you get baptized. Then you read the bible and know God's word. And have a relationship with God so you can get closer to him so he can let you in his kingdom so you can be forever with your maker where everyone is attended to be.
Not by love alone, but not by works either. I would edit your post just a bit. You believe that Christ died for your sins and accept him as you Lord and savior. Stop right there. I agree with you on that. But that's all that is necessary to be saved. The rest are works that cannot do anything to get you to heaven. But I would agree that you do them to show obedience to Christ. Accepting him as your Lord means that you should follow his commands. Be baptized, yes. Study his word, yes. Pray to God through Christ, yes. But those things are not required for salvation. They should be done because you love him.
Ah, and interesting way to say. But you forgot repent. You must repent.
Actually that was a pretty good read, you had some good points. But to get to heaven is not by love alone. First you believe that Jesus is your savior and he died on the cross for your sins. Then you repent, you break down from your sins and understand your sins and you did wrong. Your broken. Then you get baptized. Then you read the bible and know God's word. And have a relationship with God so you can get closer to him so he can let you in his kingdom so you can be forever with your maker where everyone is attended to be.
Not by love alone, but not by works either. I would edit your post just a bit. You believe that Christ died for your sins and accept him as you Lord and savior. Stop right there. I agree with you on that. But that's all that is necessary to be saved. The rest are works that cannot do anything to get you to heaven. But I would agree that you do them to show obedience to Christ. Accepting him as your Lord means that you should follow his commands. Be baptized, yes. Study his word, yes. Pray to God through Christ, yes. But those things are not required for salvation. They should be done because you love him.
If you have to accept Him to be saved, then you are in charge of your salvation, not God. That in itself is a work.
Either Christ reconciled the world to Himself or He did not. If I need to do anything, then the world is not reconciled, and He failed.
You are free to believe as you believe. However, I choose to believe in the Good News and not the Bad News.
I actually go by God's word and I use two different versions, NIT and KJV
I go by it as well, and use oh about ten translations. Plus I check with the Greek with certain scholars when I have deeper questions. For reading purposes, I prefer the NKJV, but I find some of the constructions in other versions compelling.
I also stick with KJV for Psalms. The poetry is best in that one.
Either way I go by God's word as well. I just interpret certain aspects differently than you do. I am cool with that, and I believe so is He.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Actually that was a pretty good read, you had some good points. But to get to heaven is not by love alone. First you believe that Jesus is your savior and he died on the cross for your sins. Then you repent, you break down from your sins and understand your sins and you did wrong. Your broken. Then you get baptized. Then you read the bible and know God's word. And have a relationship with God so you can get closer to him so he can let you in his kingdom so you can be forever with your maker where everyone is attended to be.
Not by love alone, but not by works either. I would edit your post just a bit. You believe that Christ died for your sins and accept him as you Lord and savior. Stop right there. I agree with you on that. But that's all that is necessary to be saved. The rest are works that cannot do anything to get you to heaven. But I would agree that you do them to show obedience to Christ. Accepting him as your Lord means that you should follow his commands. Be baptized, yes. Study his word, yes. Pray to God through Christ, yes. But those things are not required for salvation. They should be done because you love him.
Ah, and interesting way to say. But you forgot repent. You must repent.
Then you are saved by works, not grace. I disagree with the "need" to repent. Should you repent? of course. It is not necessary for salvation. All that is necessary has been done on the Cross.
Now, IF you accept Christ, and IF the Holy Spirit starts to work on you, you WILL repent, but that's not saying the same thing. Salvation comes before repentance.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Fishermage, whats your view on 1st John 5:7 in KJV. And how its taken out in every other verison. I think that verse, is a important verse. Because it shows the authority I think.
1st John 5:7 in KJV
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost and these three are one.
If you have to accept Him to be saved, then you are in charge of your salvation, not God. That in itself is a work.
Either Christ reconciled the world to Himself or He did not. If I need to do anything, then the world is not reconciled, and He failed.
You are free to believe as you believe. However, I choose to believe in the Good News and not the Bad News.
Well now we get into the issue of predestination, which is an interesting subject. I struggle with the idea that our place in eternity is determined before we are born, but I don't think I can refute it based on Scripture. "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight." (Eph. 1:4) So I agree completely that God is the one that chooses us, we do not choose Him. However, I do believe that God's choosing us is manifested by our decision to accept Christ. In essence, God works on our hearts until we have no choice but to surrender to Him.
But based on your posts, you seem to believe that all humans, the entire race, are saved and will spend eternity in paradise. Is that the case? I do not believe it to be so. Clearly the Bible talks about a day of judgement when we will all be judged and God will "separate the sheep from the goats" and those who are in Christ will enter into ever lasting joy and those who are not will sadly enter into everlasting contempt.
I missed the edit. I mostly attend my local congregational Church, but I also go to my local Anglican Church because I enjoy traditional Holy Communion.
I tend to be more evangelical than either Church, but I like the folks.
fishermage.blogspot.com
I believe it is taken out because it is not found in earlier manuscripts than Textus receptus, upon which KJV was based.
I have no problem with is theologically,k or psychologically. It is a declaration of the trinity, which I already accept through the inference in other places
fishermage.blogspot.com
If you have to accept Him to be saved, then you are in charge of your salvation, not God. That in itself is a work.
Either Christ reconciled the world to Himself or He did not. If I need to do anything, then the world is not reconciled, and He failed.
You are free to believe as you believe. However, I choose to believe in the Good News and not the Bad News.
Well now we get into the issue of predestination, which is an interesting subject. I struggle with the idea that our place in eternity is determined before we are born, but I don't think I can refute it based on Scripture. "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight." (Eph. 1:4) So I agree completely that God is the one that chooses us, we do not choose Him. However, I do believe that God's choosing us is manifested by our decision to accept Christ. In essence, God works on our hearts until we have no choice but to surrender to Him.
But based on your posts, you seem to believe that all humans, the entire race, are saved and will spend eternity in paradise. Is that the case? I do not believe it to be so. Clearly the Bible talks about a day of judgement when we will all be judged and God will "separate the sheep from the goats" and those who are in Christ will enter into ever lasting joy and those who are not will sadly enter into everlasting contempt.
But it also says that Christ came to save all men, first the believer and then the rest
It says similar things all over the place. It also says what you are saying. Interesting paradox.
You see, scripture plainly says BOTH things. I choose to reconcile it one way, you another, I feel mine is more consistent with an infinite being atoning for finite sin.
It is not mercy if I have to accept His love to get it -- it's then a transaction. Insurance. I don't buy that. You are free to believe as you do, although I feel my theology gives more joy in Christ. It also makes more sense to me from the whole of scripture.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Ah, and interesting way to say. But you forgot repent. You must repent.
I know a few Christians who I believe are saved, but still sin on a regular basis. Personally, I know I still sin routinely, however, it is not my intent to do so, it is simply my nature. So what I mean by they sin on a regular basis, is that they don't appear to show much of a desire to repent of their sins. I do not believe that costs them their salvation, but I do believe their relationship with the Lord suffers. I also believe that some Christians who refuse to repent of their sins end up being called home by the Lord because their use on earth may have reached its end. But that is God's decision.
Sorry, but yes I believe that EVERYTHING: not just humans -- but dogs, cats, license plates, stereo systems, clones, you name it -- is redeemed in Christ already. I, upon rising, shall draw all to myself. TO me, all means all. I take THAT literally.
I believe that Christ is slowly but surely remaking the world -- THIS WORLD, and some day He will return to finish bringing it all together. Yes, I believe in a Hell, BUT I believe that Hell is fully contained in God's grace, and one can always get up from that table.
Using Christ's description of a wedding feast. Ever go to a wedding, where there was one table where all the rotten relatives are -- the folks who insist on not having a good time, who sit in judgement of all?
That lousy table is Hell.
Now, those people are already AT the party, they are already free to get up and dance, but they don't. God however will never accept THEIR rejection -- he will always be there, infinitely waiting. That is separation and judgement. It MIGHT be a VERY long time (ages, as scripture says). However, ages are nothing to God. Just a blink for Him.
Again this is just a metaphor I made up from a thorough reading of the parables, where Christ talks a lot about Judgement. I know you don't agree. I am fine with that.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Ah, and interesting way to say. But you forgot repent. You must repent.
I know a few Christians who I believe are saved, but still sin on a regular basis. Personally, I know I still sin routinely, however, it is not my intent to do so, it is simply my nature. So what I mean by they sin on a regular basis, is that they don't appear to show much of a desire to repent of their sins. I do not believe that costs them their salvation, but I do believe their relationship with the Lord suffers. I also believe that some Christians who refuse to repent of their sins end up being called home by the Lord because their use on earth may have reached its end. But that is God's decision.
Yup, I sin, repent, sin repent. It's how sanctification works through the discipline of the Holy Spirit. I find once I think I've got one sin beat, a new on crops up.
fishermage.blogspot.com
If you have to accept Him to be saved, then you are in charge of your salvation, not God. That in itself is a work.
Either Christ reconciled the world to Himself or He did not. If I need to do anything, then the world is not reconciled, and He failed.
You are free to believe as you believe. However, I choose to believe in the Good News and not the Bad News.
Well now we get into the issue of predestination, which is an interesting subject. I struggle with the idea that our place in eternity is determined before we are born, but I don't think I can refute it based on Scripture. "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight." (Eph. 1:4) So I agree completely that God is the one that chooses us, we do not choose Him. However, I do believe that God's choosing us is manifested by our decision to accept Christ. In essence, God works on our hearts until we have no choice but to surrender to Him.
But based on your posts, you seem to believe that all humans, the entire race, are saved and will spend eternity in paradise. Is that the case? I do not believe it to be so. Clearly the Bible talks about a day of judgement when we will all be judged and God will "separate the sheep from the goats" and those who are in Christ will enter into ever lasting joy and those who are not will sadly enter into everlasting contempt.
But it also says that Christ came to save all men, first the believer and then the rest
It says similar things all over the place. It also says what you are saying. Interesting paradox.
You see, scripture plainly says BOTH things. I choose to reconcile it one way, you another, I feel mine is more consistent with an infinite being atoning for finite sin.
It is not mercy if I have to accept His love to get it -- it's then a transaction. Insurance. I don't buy that. You are free to believe as you do, although I feel my theology gives more joy in Christ. It also makes more sense to me from the whole of scripture.
Well I respect your opinion as well and I do think you express much wisdom in many areas, but I have to patently disagree with you on that. In order to reach that conclusion, you simply have to ignore, dismiss or find a way to explain an awful lot of Scripture. I mean you see God wiping out a lot of humans because of their sins in the Old Testament. He wiped out the entire human race except for Noah and his family and was grieved that he even created the human race because they had become so wicked in his sight. Even his chosen people, the Jews, he dealt with harshly when they disobeyed him. When Moses received the 1o commandments and the Jews decided to make a golden calf and worship it, God commanded that the worshipers be killed and 3,000 people died that day.
Then Christ came into the world and salvation was made available to the entire human race, yes. But just because salvation is available to all does not mean that all will be saved. Scripture is concluded with the book of Revelation and it says in chapter 20 that the book of life will be opened and whoever's name is written in the book of life will inherit the new heaven and new earth, but whoever's name is not found in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire reserved for the devil and his angels. Another harsh reality, but I'm afraid I cannot water down the Word of God. If you are reading this and it is making you upset, please don't become angry with me, I'm just the messenger.
If you have to accept Him to be saved, then you are in charge of your salvation, not God. That in itself is a work.
Either Christ reconciled the world to Himself or He did not. If I need to do anything, then the world is not reconciled, and He failed.
You are free to believe as you believe. However, I choose to believe in the Good News and not the Bad News.
Well now we get into the issue of predestination, which is an interesting subject. I struggle with the idea that our place in eternity is determined before we are born, but I don't think I can refute it based on Scripture. "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight." (Eph. 1:4) So I agree completely that God is the one that chooses us, we do not choose Him. However, I do believe that God's choosing us is manifested by our decision to accept Christ. In essence, God works on our hearts until we have no choice but to surrender to Him.
But based on your posts, you seem to believe that all humans, the entire race, are saved and will spend eternity in paradise. Is that the case? I do not believe it to be so. Clearly the Bible talks about a day of judgement when we will all be judged and God will "separate the sheep from the goats" and those who are in Christ will enter into ever lasting joy and those who are not will sadly enter into everlasting contempt.
But it also says that Christ came to save all men, first the believer and then the rest
It says similar things all over the place. It also says what you are saying. Interesting paradox.
You see, scripture plainly says BOTH things. I choose to reconcile it one way, you another, I feel mine is more consistent with an infinite being atoning for finite sin.
It is not mercy if I have to accept His love to get it -- it's then a transaction. Insurance. I don't buy that. You are free to believe as you do, although I feel my theology gives more joy in Christ. It also makes more sense to me from the whole of scripture.
Well I respect your opinion as well and I do think you express much wisdom in many areas, but I have to patently disagree with you on that. In order to reach that conclusion, you simply have to ignore, dismiss or find a way to explain an awful lot of Scripture. I mean you see God wiping out a lot of humans because of their sins in the Old Testament. He wiped out the entire human race except for Noah and his family and was grieved that he even created the human race because they had become so wicked in his sight. Even his chosen people, the Jews, he dealt with harshly when they disobeyed him. When Moses received the 1o commandments and the Jews decided to make a golden calf and worship it, God commanded that the worshipers be killed and 3,000 people died that day.
Then Christ came into the world and salvation was made available to the entire human race, yes. But just because salvation is available to all does not mean that all will be saved. Scripture is concluded with the book of Revelation and it says in chapter 20 that the book of life will be opened and whoever's name is written in the book of life will inherit the new heaven and new earth, but whoever's name is not found in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire reserved for the devil and his angels. Another harsh reality, but I'm afraid I cannot water down the Word of God. If you are reading this and it is making you upset, please don't become angry with me, I'm just the messenger.
You have to ignore a whole lot of scripture as well, or re-interpret it in an a priori way to eliminate its meaning. We both have to do that to believe what we believe -- I choose to err on the side of love, you choose to err on the side of wrath.
For a moment, let us see what YOU are ignoring. This is just a few examples:
Romans 5:18; 2 Corinthians 5: 16-19; 1 Corinthians 15: 22-26; 1 Timothy 4: 9-10; Rev 5:13; John 12:32; 1 Peter 3: 18-22; Colossians 1:15-20; 1 Timothy 2:16; The parable of the lost sheep, the parable of the prodigal son.
Those are just a quick list of the few I've blogged about in the past. I try and share some infinite grace teaching every week, Sunday when I have the time, sometimes Mondays.
We are BOTH watering down the Word Of God -- well, I am watering it UP, and you are watering it DOWN.
Nothing makes me upset. You should know by now I don't often get upset, only when I see real people really suffer. A theological discussion of the Word does nothing but get me all tingly lol. I love it.
I completely respect your position however. For the first 500 years, most of the Church fathers preached what I preached, and that changed over time. Christians have struggled with this since then.
happy to struggle along with you, brother. At this moment, however, I am VERY tired. I'll probably crash before I see your answer.
fishermage.blogspot.com
You have to ignore a whole lot of scripture as well, or re-interpret it in an a priori way to eliminate its meaning. We both have to do that to believe what we believe -- I choose to err on the side of love, you choose to err on the side of wrath.
For a moment, let us see what YOU are ignoring. This is just a few examples:
Romans 5:18; 2 Corinthians 5: 16-19; 1 Corinthians 15: 22-26; 1 Timothy 4: 9-10; Rev 5:13; John 12:32; 1 Peter 3: 18-22; Colossians 1:15-20; 1 Timothy 2:16; The parable of the lost sheep, the parable of the prodigal son.
Those are just a quick list of the few I've blogged about in the past. I try and share some infinite grace teaching every week, Sunday when I have the time, sometimes Mondays.
We are BOTH watering down the Word Of God -- well, I am watering it UP, and you are watering it DOWN.
Nothing makes me upset. You should know by now I don't often get upset, only when I see real people really suffer. A theological discussion of the Word does nothing but get me all tingly lol. I love it.
I completely respect your position however. For the first 500 years, most of the Church fathers preached what I preached, and that changed over time. Christians have struggled with this since then.
happy to struggle along with you, brother. At this moment, however, I am VERY tired. I'll probably crash before I see your answer.
Since you are off to bed and since a response will take a while to type, I'll hold off for now. I'll try to respond tomorrow. Night.
As an atheist, I'd have to say: Don't. Don't discuss religion, because it's pointless to do so. There is neither right nor wrong, but personal preference involved. You might as well discuss why some people like marshmallows and others don't.
If it's your friend and you have strong beliefs on the subject, but know that he could be offended: Don't.
I'm sick and tired of people pushing their beliefs on me in this country and while I am tempted to lash out, I realize that it really wouldn't make me any better than they are.
You could even make an example for them by showing just how humble and considerate an atheist can be: When they see that you are good and know that it isn't the fear of an afterlife compelling you to do so, they will respect you (and maybe even your beliefs).
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
sorry I could not resist.
I just don't get it. You atheists hate it when we Christians press our views on you but you be a hyperciete and mock us? Bah you.