Why would an atheist feel the need to explain their views on religion? If you don't believe in God, a god, or deities of any type, why would religion be a relevant topic?
Why would an atheist have a point of view on religion in the first place if they are uninvolved, non-believers?
If an atheist is trying to cause a believer to relinquish their faith, they are normally in for a very long, hard road with little chance of success. Simultaneously, if you don't share even the slightest interest or belief in the religious person's beliefs, and they are not personally causing you any harm at all, what is there to discuss?
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Why would an atheist feel the need to explain their views on religion? If you don't believe in God, a god, or deities of any type, why would religion be a relevant topic? Why would an atheist have a point of view on religion in the first place if they are uninvolved, non-believers?
By the very fact that they ARE an atheist shows that they have a VERY strong point of view on religion. You can't fully discount something and label yourself without knowing the facts which cause that label to exsist place in the first place.
"The problem with the French is that they don't have a word for entrepreneur." -George W. Bush, discussing the decline of the French economy with British Prime Minister Tony Blair
Why would an atheist feel the need to explain their views on religion? If you don't believe in God, a god, or deities of any type, why would religion be a relevant topic? Why would an atheist have a point of view on religion in the first place if they are uninvolved, non-believers?
By the very fact that they ARE an atheist shows that they have a VERY strong point of view on religion. You can't fully discount something and label yourself without knowing the facts which cause that label to exsist place in the first place.
No. Not necessarily. Atheists come in two flavors: Strong (thinks god doesn't exist for sure) and weak (doesn't know, but will not assume a large probability that there is a god) .
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
I guess that would make me a weak atheist/nihilist.
"All is false unless proven true"
That is my objective view on all things.
I have yet to have a divine message or anything of the sort sent to me, so I have no preference on any religion. Although morally I sit somewhere between Taoism and Christianity.
there is no winning in a debate between a devout christian, and a literal athiest.
- On a side note anyone who claims they don't have a "Religon" and then states they belive in Jesus as the son of God and God is fooling themselves..... Your religon IS Christianity
simple answer: DONT TRY. Realize your atheism is just as much of a religion as theirs, you have your view points that are valid to you and they have their view points that are valid to them. The problem with comparing is both you are going to think your right, and naturally no one wants to be wrong so in essence it just wont do any good period.
A religion is an organized approach to human spirituality which usually encompasses a set of narratives, symbols, beliefs and practices, often with a supernatural or transcendent quality, that give meaning to the practitioner's experiences of life through reference to a higher power or truth.[1] It may be expressed through prayer, ritual, meditation, music and art, among other things. It may focus on specific supernatural, metaphysical, and moral claims about reality (the cosmos, and human nature) which may yield a set of religious laws, ethics, and a particular lifestyle. Religion also encompasses ancestral or cultural traditions, writings, history, and mythology, as well as personal faith and religious experience.
Atheism, as an explicit position, can be either the assertion that there are no deities,[1] or the rejection of theism.[2] It is also[3] defined more broadly as an absence of belief in deities, or nontheism.
Hmm....interesting. What I don't quite understand is the idea that the Bible is anything other than a propaganda tool written by MAN to control other MEN. I'm assuming that most people in here have read books from a previous time of learning. I myself have a full set of Encyclopedia from 1906. I also have a London Journal from 1867. These are both original works from the times stated. You should see what some of the beliefs that are stated as FACT are. You go back to a slightly earlier time and look at what they thought the original dinosaurs looked like. Completely different to what people think they look like now. Yet at the time it was considered true and real. Now add that to the bible and the time frame it was supposedly written in. Do people not think that the Old Testament and a lot of the things that are said within it are the explanations OF THE TIME to explain things which have happened which they can't explain? Oh btw. I do believe in God. I don't necessarily believe in the prophets of God. Why? Because i think that man has taken the teachings and turned them into a method of control. How can you believe in a book which has been written and re-written countless times. Things kept in that suited the author and other things left out that didn't suit the author AT THE TIME OF WRITING. If you believe that humanity is inherently evil. Which you do if, as you say, all humanity is living in sin ever since we were cast from the garden of eden then is a newborn baby born evil? If that is the case then why even bother to let the child live? Christ may have been a prophet of god but Christianity and for that matter ALL organised religions are an aberration to god himself as they are all designed for the subjugation of mankind to a persons way of thinking whoever right or wrong that way may be. But as pointed out before. This is a silly arguement as believers won't stop believing and non believers won't stop believing either Thanks T
100% with the high-lighted text also some food for thought check into the egyptian "Book of the Dead"
which is a compilation of ancient burial scrolls scrolls that PRE-DATES the bible by thousands of years and look specificaly at the uncanny similarities between Jesus and Horus, BOTH had Virgin births, BOTH performed many miracles and BOTH died were buried and descended to the underworld and then ROSE again..... Might just be coincidence but i doubt it....
Hmm....interesting. What I don't quite understand is the idea that the Bible is anything other than a propaganda tool written by MAN to control other MEN. I'm assuming that most people in here have read books from a previous time of learning. I myself have a full set of Encyclopedia from 1906. I also have a London Journal from 1867. These are both original works from the times stated. You should see what some of the beliefs that are stated as FACT are. You go back to a slightly earlier time and look at what they thought the original dinosaurs looked like. Completely different to what people think they look like now. Yet at the time it was considered true and real. Now add that to the bible and the time frame it was supposedly written in. Do people not think that the Old Testament and a lot of the things that are said within it are the explanations OF THE TIME to explain things which have happened which they can't explain? Oh btw. I do believe in God. I don't necessarily believe in the prophets of God. Why? Because i think that man has taken the teachings and turned them into a method of control. How can you believe in a book which has been written and re-written countless times. Things kept in that suited the author and other things left out that didn't suit the author AT THE TIME OF WRITING. If you believe that humanity is inherently evil. Which you do if, as you say, all humanity is living in sin ever since we were cast from the garden of eden then is a newborn baby born evil? If that is the case then why even bother to let the child live? Christ may have been a prophet of god but Christianity and for that matter ALL organised religions are an aberration to god himself as they are all designed for the subjugation of mankind to a persons way of thinking whoever right or wrong that way may be. But as pointed out before. This is a silly arguement as believers won't stop believing and non believers won't stop believing either Thanks T
100% with the high-lighted text also some food for thought check into the egyptian "Book of the Dead"
which is a compilation of ancient burial scrolls scrolls that PRE-DATES the bible by thousands of years and look specificaly at the uncanny similarities between Jesus and Horus, BOTH had Virgin births, BOTH performed many miracles and BOTH died were buried and descended to the underworld and then ROSE again..... Might just be coincidence but i doubt it....
just my opinion but .....
-- /carry on
The Egyptian Book of the Dead issue can be resolved in at least two ways. One, if you assume the Jesus reserrection story and the virgin birth were made up, then we can see that they evidently copied from other, earlier myths. Again, this all follows IF you m ake the a priori assumtion that there is no God, or at least that Jesus was bunk.
If, however, you accept the witness accounts and the textual evidence as true, and believe Jesus was and is who he and the apostles said he was, one sees all these myths in a new light. Every dying and rising god, every virgin birth, ever sower of seeds and reaper of harvests, every self-sacrificing story from great and early ages were essentially foretelling His coming.
God has written eternity in the hearts of men. In our dreams, our visions, our deepest places is a desire for restoration, redemption, and Glory. God sent people all over the world this vision to prepare them all for the Christ.
Again, one's a priori view of things will lead one to interpret the data differently.
As someone who studied all this stuff extensively before I came to belief, I find the comparisons fascinating. As with CS Lewis, this commonality of experience in the spiritual views of all men ony lends evidence to the notion of there being a diety -- it certainly doesn't weaken it.
Hmm....interesting. What I don't quite understand is the idea that the Bible is anything other than a propaganda tool written by MAN to control other MEN. I'm assuming that most people in here have read books from a previous time of learning. I myself have a full set of Encyclopedia from 1906. I also have a London Journal from 1867. These are both original works from the times stated. You should see what some of the beliefs that are stated as FACT are. You go back to a slightly earlier time and look at what they thought the original dinosaurs looked like. Completely different to what people think they look like now. Yet at the time it was considered true and real. Now add that to the bible and the time frame it was supposedly written in. Do people not think that the Old Testament and a lot of the things that are said within it are the explanations OF THE TIME to explain things which have happened which they can't explain? Oh btw. I do believe in God. I don't necessarily believe in the prophets of God. Why? Because i think that man has taken the teachings and turned them into a method of control. How can you believe in a book which has been written and re-written countless times. Things kept in that suited the author and other things left out that didn't suit the author AT THE TIME OF WRITING. If you believe that humanity is inherently evil. Which you do if, as you say, all humanity is living in sin ever since we were cast from the garden of eden then is a newborn baby born evil? If that is the case then why even bother to let the child live? Christ may have been a prophet of god but Christianity and for that matter ALL organised religions are an aberration to god himself as they are all designed for the subjugation of mankind to a persons way of thinking whoever right or wrong that way may be. But as pointed out before. This is a silly arguement as believers won't stop believing and non believers won't stop believing either Thanks T
100% with the high-lighted text also some food for thought check into the egyptian "Book of the Dead"
which is a compilation of ancient burial scrolls scrolls that PRE-DATES the bible by thousands of years and look specificaly at the uncanny similarities between Jesus and Horus, BOTH had Virgin births, BOTH performed many miracles and BOTH died were buried and descended to the underworld and then ROSE again..... Might just be coincidence but i doubt it....
just my opinion but .....
-- /carry on
The Egyptian Book of the Dead issue can be resolved in at least two ways. One, if you assume the Jesus reserrection story and the virgin birth were made up, then we can see that they evidently copied from other, earlier myths. Again, this all follows IF you m ake the a priori assumtion that there is no God, or at least that Jesus was bunk.
If, however, you accept the witness accounts and the textual evidence as true, and believe Jesus was and is who he and the apostles said he was, one sees all these myths in a new light. Every dying and rising god, every virgin birth, ever sower of seeds and reaper of harvests, every self-sacrificing story from great and early ages were essentially foretelling His coming.
God has written eternity in the hearts of men. In our dreams, our visions, our deepest places is a desire for restoration, redemption, and Glory. God sent people all over the world this vision to prepare them all for the Christ.
Again, one's a priori view of things will lead one to interpret the data differently.
As someone who studied all this stuff extensively before I came to belief, I find the comparisons fascinating. As with CS Lewis, this commonality of experience in the spiritual views of all men ony lends evidence to the notion of there being a diety -- it certainly doesn't weaken it.
- I don't quite follow... In following along that line of thought would that mean that because many cultures have fire breathing dragons that they to are real? What about aliens? (and NO not the illegal kind). Many cultures describe those as well. Interesting line of thought .... Does that mean also that for thousands of years most men believed the earth was flat and you would fall of if you sailed too far does the fact that most men believed it lend evidence to the notion that the earth IS in fact flat or maybe it didn't weaken it?......
-I don't think popular = proof but thats just my opinion and i have been known to be wrong so maybe it does...
-I still don't follow ....
- Fascinating view points really proves that environment is the real key to the foundation and formation of the human mind and individual thought. Or so it seems .....
I am just curious. I've been trying to explain my thoughts to one of my friends, and it is growing more and more into a heated battle, rather than a discussion. Any advice?
Religion (or Atheism in the same way) are a matter of choice and personal experience. Life shapes us to belief in a religion or to believe in materialism only. It is something very personal, which you cant really explain or "show someone". Life shapes us and we make choices based in it. It is nothing that can be transfered by talk. When someone is ready for a new view, you can accompany his or her way, but people cant really be talked into. Not if you are serious with whatever your world view is.
And why should you. If you are atheist or religious is it what you want to be, what fits to you. Changing the belief only based on a talk is cheap. Every true belief (or non belief) is based on experience not conversations. I think the value of conversations is hightly overrated.
Take this forum. How often did you ever see that someone who disagreed with something really acutally changed his view based on arguments? Truth be told, I have seen that VERY rarely, even tho gaming is a relatively uninportant issue. Religion is something very personal, or it should be. A different opinion makes some people feel threatened. In the end, it cant really be talked about. The only thing you CAN do, is say what you believe and how it came to be so. Many people are getting into circles of justification or without realizing want to convert the other. Its quite natural, when you believe in something - and in that even atheism IS a belief you chose.
Added to that, the big religions, like Christendom, have a strong emphasis to "convert" or "save" others, so you must expect a defensive reaction.
On a personal note I dont understand Atheism. Saying a human being is just a biological machine is like living in a dead world. Its a reality I would not like to live in. My religion is a matter of choice, since I wasnt raised in it. It inspires me to try to become part of something that is greater than me, something to find inner peace from, and without it... I dunno how a person can live, tbh. Believing that the world is just a material thing without soul or anything beyond mere matter is the most horrible concept of reality I can think of. So much for not getting defensive, teh.
Over the years I have had many pupils in the way I follow, and there was one thing all of them had in common, including me: they had come to a point in life, where they felt that just living on as a cogwheel of work in the machinery of the mundane world was no more enough. They felt empty, not content, and no "material food" (in the widest sense) could satisfy them. It is the central Buddhist idea that unhappyness can not be "cured" by gathering goods or reaching material goals, but by transforming the mind, the inner self. That is how all I know who started their spiritual journey, began it. Now if you are perfectly rounded and happy with your life, I can understand you feel no need to seek. But it is a bit short sighted to say, I dont believe in anything, because God The Maker himself didnt knock personally at my door to convince me.
If you ask such a question, maybe you must question yourself, if you are really content. If that materialism is really enough for you. There are many more roads than just the good old Holy Book circles, tho it may be enough for some, it is maybe not for a person with a naturally questioning mind. If you value logic highly, Christendom with it's strong emphasis on fables surely cant appeal you. But other pathways are much less in contrast to science. For instance Buddhism. (I am no Buddhist, its just an example.)
I regard spirituality, as I prefer to call it, as an endless quest, a continual development, no matter in what system you root yourself eventually. For me it is fundamentally rooted in my belief that the answers to all human questions dont lay in outside things. Its not the better government, the better laws or the better system - the betterment lies in a path inward.
And as to "God" (in the broadest sense, I dont believe in a traditional "God") knocking at your door: I am sure he knocks at every person's door once and then. He surely has knocked at yours once already, tho you may have preferred not to take note.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Hmm....interesting. What I don't quite understand is the idea that the Bible is anything other than a propaganda tool written by MAN to control other MEN. I'm assuming that most people in here have read books from a previous time of learning. I myself have a full set of Encyclopedia from 1906. I also have a London Journal from 1867. These are both original works from the times stated. You should see what some of the beliefs that are stated as FACT are. You go back to a slightly earlier time and look at what they thought the original dinosaurs looked like. Completely different to what people think they look like now. Yet at the time it was considered true and real. Now add that to the bible and the time frame it was supposedly written in. Do people not think that the Old Testament and a lot of the things that are said within it are the explanations OF THE TIME to explain things which have happened which they can't explain? Oh btw. I do believe in God. I don't necessarily believe in the prophets of God. Why? Because i think that man has taken the teachings and turned them into a method of control. How can you believe in a book which has been written and re-written countless times. Things kept in that suited the author and other things left out that didn't suit the author AT THE TIME OF WRITING. If you believe that humanity is inherently evil. Which you do if, as you say, all humanity is living in sin ever since we were cast from the garden of eden then is a newborn baby born evil? If that is the case then why even bother to let the child live? Christ may have been a prophet of god but Christianity and for that matter ALL organised religions are an aberration to god himself as they are all designed for the subjugation of mankind to a persons way of thinking whoever right or wrong that way may be. But as pointed out before. This is a silly arguement as believers won't stop believing and non believers won't stop believing either Thanks T
100% with the high-lighted text also some food for thought check into the egyptian "Book of the Dead"
which is a compilation of ancient burial scrolls scrolls that PRE-DATES the bible by thousands of years and look specificaly at the uncanny similarities between Jesus and Horus, BOTH had Virgin births, BOTH performed many miracles and BOTH died were buried and descended to the underworld and then ROSE again..... Might just be coincidence but i doubt it....
just my opinion but .....
-- /carry on
The Egyptian Book of the Dead issue can be resolved in at least two ways. One, if you assume the Jesus reserrection story and the virgin birth were made up, then we can see that they evidently copied from other, earlier myths. Again, this all follows IF you m ake the a priori assumtion that there is no God, or at least that Jesus was bunk.
If, however, you accept the witness accounts and the textual evidence as true, and believe Jesus was and is who he and the apostles said he was, one sees all these myths in a new light. Every dying and rising god, every virgin birth, ever sower of seeds and reaper of harvests, every self-sacrificing story from great and early ages were essentially foretelling His coming.
God has written eternity in the hearts of men. In our dreams, our visions, our deepest places is a desire for restoration, redemption, and Glory. God sent people all over the world this vision to prepare them all for the Christ.
Again, one's a priori view of things will lead one to interpret the data differently.
As someone who studied all this stuff extensively before I came to belief, I find the comparisons fascinating. As with CS Lewis, this commonality of experience in the spiritual views of all men ony lends evidence to the notion of there being a diety -- it certainly doesn't weaken it.
- I don't quite follow... In following along that line of thought would that mean that because many cultures have fire breathing dragons that they to are real? What about aliens? (and NO not the illegal kind). Many cultures describe those as well. Interesting line of thought .... Does that mean also that for thousands of years most men believed the earth was flat and you would fall of if you sailed too far does the fact that most men believed it lend evidence to the notion that the earth IS in fact flat or maybe it didn't weaken it?......
-I don't think popular = proof but thats just my opinion and i have been known to be wrong so maybe it does...
-I still don't follow ....
- Fascinating view points really proves that environment is the real key to the foundation and formation of the human mind and individual thought. Or so it seems .....
No, I'm saying that it doesn't prove things either way, but if it DOES lean in any direction, it favors diety.
I am just curious. I've been trying to explain my thoughts to one of my friends, and it is growing more and more into a heated battle, rather than a discussion. Any advice?
On a personal note I dont understand Atheism. Saying a human being is just a biological machine is like living in a dead world. Its a reality I would not like to live in.
I disagree, the atheists viewpoint strips the world and its workings of inherent meaning, that is true. But, at the same time, it frees humanity to create their own meaning for their lives and future. I don't have to believe in a creator to marvel at sunsets, or rock strata, or the dance of cells carrying out their coded instructions.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. Hemingway
I am just curious. I've been trying to explain my thoughts to one of my friends, and it is growing more and more into a heated battle, rather than a discussion. Any advice?
On a personal note I dont understand Atheism. Saying a human being is just a biological machine is like living in a dead world. Its a reality I would not like to live in.
I disagree, the atheists viewpoint strips the world and its workings of inherent meaning, that is true. But, at the same time, it frees humanity to create their own meaning for their lives and future. I don't have to believe in a creator to marvel at sunsets, or rock strata, or the dance of cells carrying out their coded instructions.
Atheism is no necessity to create your own meaning. That is just in a certain concept of deity so. Religion is more than the Biblical idea of a creator making things and giving orders.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Atheism, as an explicit position, can be either the assertion that there are no deities,[1] or the rejection of theism.[2] It is also[3] defined more broadly as an absence of belief in deities, or nontheism.
"But isn't disbelieving in God the same thing as believing he doesn't exist?"
Definitely not. Disbelief in a proposition means that one does not believe it to be true. Not believing that something is true is not equivalent to believing that it is false; one may simply have no idea whether it is true or not. Which brings us to agnosticism.
"What is agnosticism then?"
The term 'agnosticism' was coined by Professor T.H. Huxley at a meeting of the Metaphysical Society in 1876. He defined an "agnostic" as someone who disclaimed both ("strong") atheism and theism, and who believed that the question of whether a higher power existed was unsolved and insoluble. Another way of putting it is that an agnostic is someone who believes that we do not know for sure whether God exists. Some agnostics believe that we can never know.
In recent years, however, the term agnostic has also been used to describe those who simply believe that the evidence for or against God is inconclusive, and therefore are undecided about the issue.
To reduce the amount of confusion over the use of term agnosticism, it is recommended that usage based on a belief that we cannot know whether God exists be qualified as "strict agnosticism" and usage based on the belief that we merely do not know yet be qualified as "empirical agnosticism."
Words are slippery things, and language is inexact. Beware of assuming that you can work out someone's philosophical point of view simply from the fact that she calls herself an atheist or an agnostic. For example, many people use agnosticism to mean what is referred to here as "weak atheism," and use the word "atheism" only when referring to "strong atheism."
Beware also that because the word "atheist" has so many shades of meaning that it is very difficult to generalize about atheists. About all you can say for sure is that atheists don't believe in God. For example, it certainly isn't the case that all atheists believe that science is the best way to find out about the universe.
"OK, maybe it's not a religion in the strict sense of the word. But surely belief in atheism (or science) is still just an act of faith, like religion is?"
Firstly, it's not entirely clear that skeptical atheism is something one actually believes in.
Secondly, it is necessary to adopt a number of core beliefs or assumptions to make some sort of sense out of the sensory data we experience. Most atheists try to adopt as few core beliefs as possible; and even those are subject to questioning if experience throws them into doubt.
Science has a number of core assumptions. For example, it is generally assumed that the laws of physics are the same for all observers (or at least, all observers in inertial frames). These are the sort of core assumptions atheists make. If such basic ideas are called "acts of faith," then almost everything we know must be said to be based on acts of faith, and the term loses its meaning.
Faith is more often used to refer to complete, certain belief in something. According to such a definition, atheism and science are certainly not acts of faith. Of course, individual atheists or scientists can be as dogmatic as religious followers when claiming that something is "certain." This is not a general tendency, however; there are many atheists who would be reluctant to state with certainty that the universe exists.
Faith is also used to refer to belief without supporting evidence or proof. Skeptical atheism certainly doesn't fit that definition, as skeptical atheism has no beliefs. Strong atheism is closer, but still doesn't really match, as even the most dogmatic atheist will tend to refer to experimental data (or the lack of it) when asserting that God does not exist.
"How do atheists differ from religious people?"
They don't believe in God. That's all there is to it.
Atheists may listen to heavy metal--backwards, even--or they may prefer a Verdi Requiem, even if they know the words. They may wear Hawaiian shirts, they may dress all in black, they may even wear orange robes. (Many Buddhists lack a belief in any sort of God.) Some atheists even carry a copy of the Bible around--for arguing against, of course!
Whoever you are, the chances are you have met several atheists without realizing it. Atheists are usually unexceptional in behavior and appearance.
Thought this might approriate for this thread: www.youtube.com/watch The video is called "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer". Enjoy!
Thought this might approriate for this thread: www.youtube.com/watch The video is called "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer". Enjoy!
That video is an utter joke...there is only one question in the entire thing that presents even the slightest bit of reasonable questioning, that would be the first one...Ever other question is easily answered by a very basic understanding of Biblical theology...It's funny too, because the video claims that it's targetting educated Christians...one would hope that someone trying to appeal to the sensibilities of Christians would know a little bit more about our theology and what we believe, it would save them the time of having to ask such basic questions in the form of a condescending video.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Thought this might approriate for this thread: www.youtube.com/watch The video is called "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer". Enjoy!
That video is an utter joke...there is only one question in the entire thing that presents even the slightest bit of reasonable questioning, that would be the first one...Ever other question is easily answered by a very basic understanding of Biblical theology...It's funny too, because the video claims that it's targetting educated Christians...one would hope that someone trying to appeal to the sensibilities of Christians would know a little bit more about our theology and what we believe, it would save them the time of having to ask such basic questions in the form of a condescending video.
So since the answers are so obvious to you could please list the answers to those 10 questions for us less educated. Thank you in advance
Edit: here's something to keep you entertained while you write those 10 all explaining answers: Penn & Teller; The Bible is Bullshit.
Thought this might approriate for this thread: www.youtube.com/watch The video is called "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer". Enjoy!
That video is an utter joke...there is only one question in the entire thing that presents even the slightest bit of reasonable questioning, that would be the first one...Ever other question is easily answered by a very basic understanding of Biblical theology...It's funny too, because the video claims that it's targetting educated Christians...one would hope that someone trying to appeal to the sensibilities of Christians would know a little bit more about our theology and what we believe, it would save them the time of having to ask such basic questions in the form of a condescending video.
So since the answers are so obvious to you could please list the answers to those 10 questions for us less educated. Thank you in advance
I've answered them all on this forum before, more than once...It's a very common video for atheists to post...but since you probably won't want to be bothered with using a search function i'll do it once again
Question 1. Why doesn’t god heal Amputees?
This is, like I said, the only half intelligent question posed by the video...Romans states that The Lord blesses who he chooses to bless, and that it is the potter's choice what he does with his own clay...This may seem callous or unloving, and at first glance I would agree...The best answer that I can provide is that they are amputees for a reason, this is, of course, of little consolation to someone who is missing their limbs...I understand that and feel for them on the deepest of levels, I truly do. I will have more to say on this tomorow, as I am fully aware that my answer will only suffice to other Christians.
Question 2. Why Are There So Many Starving People in our World?
"The Poor will always be among us" There are that many starving people in the world because humans are fallen, and greedy. The Bible does not promote an idea of God akin to a cosmic feeding troth...What's funny is that atheists are posing this question, yet it's because of materialism that there is so much poverty in the world. I'm not saying that atheists are the reason for starvation or world hunger, I'm saying that the want of material goods is the reason...This is, of course, not something that the Bible promotes. The idea that God should be feeding every person and interceding in the lives of evil do-ers in order to stop them from causing others pain is not Biblical...So to answer the question: Because there are so many people who are so full. Stop blaming God, start blaming your fellow man. A basic understanding of the Bible would answer why God doesn't just feed all of these people - Because he wants US to, that's the message the Jesus preached.
Question 3. Why Does God Demand The Death Of So Many Innocent People In The Bible?
I'm going to cross reference what I know with a few friends who have degrees in Bible and Theolgy, as well as Hebrew and Greek...(basically, going to talk to someone who is fluent in Hebrew since the citations in the video are from the old Testament) I'll go down the list of verses that the video uses at a later date when I have better answers than those that I could provide here or have provided in the past.
Question 4. Why does the bible contain some much Anti-Scientific Nonsense?
the 6000 year argument: I always take a deep sigh when it comes to this one...First of all, you can be a Christian without believing in a 6000 year old Earth, show me where in the Bible it says that the Earth is 6000 years old...secondly, this is a promotion by the video of evolutionary science, which, if you know ANYTHING about evolutionary science, you know that a great deal of it is based upon postulation with minimal imperical evidence.
Jonah and the Whale: To believe this of course requires a belief in God's power to sustain us...it's funny how the video chooses when God gets to be all powerful like in the case of global hunger, but makes him completely powerless in the case of Jonah.
Man made of Dust: once again this is an example of God's power being subverted for convenience...What's funny to me about this is that Richard Dawkins himself believes that all life sprung forth from self replicating clay crystals....so uhh...dust? Interesting...So the man who prides himself as one of the most logical and scientific atheists believes what the Bible says, but without God...fascinating really.
Question 5. Why is God a Big Proponet of slavery in the Bible?
he's not...never int he Bible does it say that Slavery is right...Slavery was a cultural norm at the time that the Bible adresses...The Bible says that we all have ONE master over all anyway, that being God...Slavery was also very different in Biblical times than it was in the last few centuries and today (Slavery is still quite rampant today) People often sold THEMSELVES into slavery to pay for debts...What the Bible does is flesh out how slaves should be treated, because it was a very different system than it is/was in more modern times. The Bible DOES condemn unjust forms of slavery, such as the kind that Pharoh lorded over the jews. Also, the Bible does indeed condemn the "man stealing" variety of slavery that sprung up with Afircan slaves during the 19th century: “Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death”
1 Timothy 1:8-10). also states that slave traders are ungodly and sinful and are no better than those who kill their parents.
Question 6. Why Does God Let Bad Things Happen To good People?
because God isn't a cosmic watchdog and never presents himself as such in the Bible...Once again this goes back to teh potter doing as he wishes with the clay...NOWHERE In the Bible does it say that being a Christian is going to make you have a good life, in fact it says the opposite, it says that you will be persecuted...if the people who are saved by faith will have difficult lives, what makes you think that anyone else would get a free ticket to happy town?
Question 7. Why didn’t Jesus’ Miracles In The Bible Leave Behind Any Evidence?
Are they serious? There are thousands of manuscripts that support the Gospels...It's ridiculous that they would even try to present this
Question 8.How Do we explain the fact that Jesus Has never Appeared to you?
I have had legitimate visions myself, of both the Godly and Demonic variety...I have also met a former Muslim terrorist who converted to Christianity after Jesus came to him in a vision...want to tell me that Jesus doesn't appear to people? I can tell you first hand that he does.
Question 9. Why does Jesus Want you to eat his body and drink his Blood?
.WOW...really? So they assume that people are educated but they don't understand what a metaphor is...awesome. Most Catholics don't even believe in transsubstantiation, let alone the rest of the Christian world.
Question 10. Why Do Christians Get Divorce The Same Rate as Non-Christians?
Sorry that we aren't perfect? Once again, The Bible does not promise happiness...It promises that what you believe will bring you joy, which as anyone with any scriptural knowledge knows, is quite different from happiness...I would also argue that Christians probably get divorced for very different reasons than non-chrisitians, and that they probably also get married at a higher rate per-relationship...most likely due to a desire to have sex (sad that this is true, of course once again we are not perfect people)
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Thought this might approriate for this thread: www.youtube.com/watch The video is called "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer". Enjoy!
That video is an utter joke...there is only one question in the entire thing that presents even the slightest bit of reasonable questioning, that would be the first one...Ever other question is easily answered by a very basic understanding of Biblical theology...It's funny too, because the video claims that it's targetting educated Christians...one would hope that someone trying to appeal to the sensibilities of Christians would know a little bit more about our theology and what we believe, it would save them the time of having to ask such basic questions in the form of a condescending video.
So since the answers are so obvious to you could please list the answers to those 10 questions for us less educated. Thank you in advance
I've answered them all on this forum before, more than once...It's a very common video for atheists to post...but since you probably won't want to be bothered with using a search function i'll do it once again
Question 1. Why doesn’t god heal Amputees?
This is, like I said, the only half intelligent question posed by the video...Romans states that The Lord blesses who he chooses to bless, and that it is the potter's choice what he does with his own clay...This may seem callous or unloving, and at first glance I would agree...The best answer that I can provide is that they are amputees for a reason, this is, of course, of little consolation to someone who is missing their limbs...I understand that and feel for them on the deepest of levels, I truly do. I will have more to say on this tomorow, as I am fully aware that my answer will only suffice to other Christians.
Question 2. Why Are There So Many Starving People in our World?
"The Poor will always be among us" There are that many starving people in the world because humans are fallen, and greedy. The Bible does not promote an idea of God akin to a cosmic feeding troth...What's funny is that atheists are posing this question, yet it's because of materialism that there is so much poverty in the world. I'm not saying that atheists are the reason for starvation or world hunger, I'm saying that the want of material goods is the reason...This is, of course, not something that the Bible promotes. The idea that God should be feeding every person and interceding in the lives of evil do-ers in order to stop them from causing others pain is not Biblical...So to answer the question: Because there are so many people who are so full. Stop blaming God, start blaming your fellow man. A basic understanding of the Bible would answer why God doesn't just feed all of these people - Because he wants US to, that's the message the Jesus preached.
Question 3. Why Does God Demand The Death Of So Many Innocent People In The Bible?
I'm going to cross reference what I know with a few friends who have degrees in Bible and Theolgy, as well as Hebrew and Greek...(basically, going to talk to someone who is fluent in Hebrew since the citations in the video are from the old Testament) I'll go down the list of verses that the video uses at a later date when I have better answers than those that I could provide here or have provided in the past.
Question 4. Why does the bible contain some much Anti-Scientific Nonsense?
the 6000 year argument: I always take a deep sigh when it comes to this one...First of all, you can be a Christian without believing in a 6000 year old Earth, show me where in the Bible it says that the Earth is 6000 years old...secondly, this is a promotion by the video of evolutionary science, which, if you know ANYTHING about evolutionary science, you know that a great deal of it is based upon postulation with minimal imperical evidence.
Jonah and the Whale: To believe this of course requires a belief in God's power to sustain us...it's funny how the video chooses when God gets to be all powerful like in the case of global hunger, but makes him completely powerless in the case of Jonah.
Man made of Dust: once again this is an example of God's power being subverted for convenience...What's funny to me about this is that Richard Dawkins himself believes that all life sprung forth from self replicating clay crystals....so uhh...dust? Interesting...So the man who prides himself as one of the most logical and scientific atheists believes what the Bible says, but without God...fascinating really.
Question 5. Why is God a Big Proponet of slavery in the Bible?
he's not...never int he Bible does it say that Slavery is right...Slavery was a cultural norm at the time that the Bible adresses...The Bible says that we all have ONE master over all anyway, that being God...Slavery was also very different in Biblical times than it was in the last few centuries and today (Slavery is still quite rampant today) People often sold THEMSELVES into slavery to pay for debts...What the Bible does is flesh out how slaves should be treated, because it was a very different system than it is/was in more modern times. The Bible DOES condemn unjust forms of slavery, such as the kind that Pharoh lorded over the jews. Also, the Bible does indeed condemn the "man stealing" variety of slavery that sprung up with Afircan slaves during the 19th century: “Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death”
1 Timothy 1:8-10). also states that slave traders are ungodly and sinful and are no better than those who kill their parents.
Question 6. Why Does God Let Bad Things Happen To good People?
because God isn't a cosmic watchdog and never presents himself as such in the Bible...Once again this goes back to teh potter doing as he wishes with the clay...NOWHERE In the Bible does it say that being a Christian is going to make you have a good life, in fact it says the opposite, it says that you will be persecuted...if the people who are saved by faith will have difficult lives, what makes you think that anyone else would get a free ticket to happy town?
Question 7. Why didn’t Jesus’ Miracles In The Bible Leave Behind Any Evidence?
Are they serious? There are thousands of manuscripts that support the Gospels...It's ridiculous that they would even try to present this
Question 8.How Do we explain the fact that Jesus Has never Appeared to you?
I have had legitimate visions myself, of both the Godly and Demonic variety...I have also met a former Muslim terrorist who converted to Christianity after Jesus came to him in a vision...want to tell me that Jesus doesn't appear to people? I can tell you first hand that he does.
Question 9. Why does Jesus Want you to eat his body and drink his Blood?
.WOW...really? So they assume that people are educated but they don't understand what a metaphor is...awesome. Most Catholics don't even believe in transsubstantiation, let alone the rest of the Christian world.
Question 10. Why Do Christians Get Divorce The Same Rate as Non-Christians?
Sorry that we aren't perfect? Once again, The Bible does not promise happiness...It promises that what you believe will bring you joy, which as anyone with any scriptural knowledge knows, is quite different from happiness...I would also argue that Christians probably get divorced for very different reasons than non-chrisitians, and that they probably also get married at a higher rate per-relationship...most likely due to a desire to have sex (sad that this is true, of course once again we are not perfect people)
So you decide to do exactly what to video said you would do. Make up excuses and rationalizations.
For example your answer to question #9 is just pure lie. Catholics any many other sects of Christiniaty literally believe that when bread and wine are consecrated they become body and blood of Christ. Even if you consider it as metaphor it's still a metaphor based on cannibalism and it quite well highlights how many of the things we consider to be part of Christian religion these days have their roots in pagan religions much older than Christianity.
You think that I don't know anything about true believers well guess what, I was born into very religous family and I have for example read the whole Bible, which I know from my own experience, that many who have been Christians since childhood haven't done. So you can pretend that many Christians don't believe that praying God to bless their marriage doesn't raise their chance of happy marriage or that the Old Testament isn't full of God telling you to kill people for the most absurd reasons or just God killing innocent people himself just to prove a point. Also I find it hilarious that you aknowledge that slavery was a cultural norm at the time which is of course true, but fail to realize that the same thing applies to the rest of the Bible too.
Notice how I said many Christians instead of just Christians in the last paragraph ? The reason is of course that Christianiaty and pretty much every other religion there is so flexible that it can be tailored to suit your own needs. There are over two billion Christians but how many of them actually even practice the same religion in reality ? As you said for example you can easily skip that Earth is 6000 years old belief and make evolution fit your view of the Bible, but at the same time there will still be many Christians to whom saying that Earth isn't 6000 year old is a sacrilege. So which one of you is right and how can you even claim to follow the same religion with differences of opinion that huge ?
Here are couple more questions for you to think about btw. Written by me since that video didn't ask them though I definitely don't claim that I invented these questions.
What I have never really understood is how Christians(and every other religion where this is true) can justify the "believe in Jesus or go to hell" stuff. I mean first of all there are those who lived their lifes before Christianity even existed, and still after Christianity was created there has been a huge number of people who never heard about it during their lifes. So did these people just go straight to hell or did they get some kind of free ride to heaven ?
Another thing is that people in this thread who say they believe in the Christian God would be most likely saying they believe in Allah if they their birth place had been different, and they had been brought up in that cultural environment. So do you go to hell just because you happen to born in the wrong place and don't get the right indoctrination ?
Finally the idea of Heaven just doesn't make any sense. I mean for must of us Heaven would mean spending time with our loved ones but even if you love someone you will occasionally have bad days, fighting with your wife doesn't sound very Heavenly to me. Or maybe God chances your mind somehow that you don't ever wanna fight again but wouldn't that mean that you are basically on sedative drugs and not really yourself anymore. What if Heaven for person A means spending the eternity with persons B, C and D but for person B the idea of Heaven is spending eternity with B and D ? So does person A or B not get the Heaven he wanted or will God just create some kind of clones for everyone to be happy ? Etc. Heaven even as idea as is just pure logical impossibility.
Anyway I was just wanna raise questions if you can answer them to your own satisfaction, fair enough. I don't think there is much point debating this since believers can use pretty much anything as explanation while the other side has to rely on facts and logical thinking. Just be brave enough to actually questions your beliefs.
Atheism, as an explicit position, can be either the assertion that there are no deities,[1] or the rejection of theism.[2] It is also[3] defined more broadly as an absence of belief in deities, or nontheism. Taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism
I would say skeptical Atheist best describes me. I simply want the 1 thing no religion as of yet can provide ..... PROOF unequivocal , undeniable , evidentiary , unrefutable , scientifically testable ...... PROOF Proof of any deity and the 1 CORRECT Religion give me those and you will have a believer..... That 1st god should be easy enough for any religion where people claim to talk to a given deity on a daily basis .... Yet still no PROOF... strange isn't it?
Just a bit of INFO on some forms of Atheism for anyone interested.
Edit: Taken from http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/intro.html "But isn't disbelieving in God the same thing as believing he doesn't exist?" Definitely not. Disbelief in a proposition means that one does not believe it to be true. Not believing that something is true is not equivalent to believing that it is false; one may simply have no idea whether it is true or not. Which brings us to agnosticism.
"What is agnosticism then?" The term 'agnosticism' was coined by Professor T.H. Huxley at a meeting of the Metaphysical Society in 1876. He defined an "agnostic" as someone who disclaimed both ("strong") atheism and theism, and who believed that the question of whether a higher power existed was unsolved and insoluble. Another way of putting it is that an agnostic is someone who believes that we do not know for sure whether God exists. Some agnostics believe that we can never know. In recent years, however, the term agnostic has also been used to describe those who simply believe that the evidence for or against God is inconclusive, and therefore are undecided about the issue. To reduce the amount of confusion over the use of term agnosticism, it is recommended that usage based on a belief that we cannot know whether God exists be qualified as "strict agnosticism" and usage based on the belief that we merely do not know yet be qualified as "empirical agnosticism." Words are slippery things, and language is inexact. Beware of assuming that you can work out someone's philosophical point of view simply from the fact that she calls herself an atheist or an agnostic. For example, many people use agnosticism to mean what is referred to here as "weak atheism," and use the word "atheism" only when referring to "strong atheism." Beware also that because the word "atheist" has so many shades of meaning that it is very difficult to generalize about atheists. About all you can say for sure is that atheists don't believe in God. For example, it certainly isn't the case that all atheists believe that science is the best way to find out about the universe.
"OK, maybe it's not a religion in the strict sense of the word. But surely belief in atheism (or science) is still just an act of faith, like religion is?" Firstly, it's not entirely clear that skeptical atheism is something one actually believes in. Secondly, it is necessary to adopt a number of core beliefs or assumptions to make some sort of sense out of the sensory data we experience. Most atheists try to adopt as few core beliefs as possible; and even those are subject to questioning if experience throws them into doubt. Science has a number of core assumptions. For example, it is generally assumed that the laws of physics are the same for all observers (or at least, all observers in inertial frames). These are the sort of core assumptions atheists make. If such basic ideas are called "acts of faith," then almost everything we know must be said to be based on acts of faith, and the term loses its meaning. Faith is more often used to refer to complete, certain belief in something. According to such a definition, atheism and science are certainly not acts of faith. Of course, individual atheists or scientists can be as dogmatic as religious followers when claiming that something is "certain." This is not a general tendency, however; there are many atheists who would be reluctant to state with certainty that the universe exists. Faith is also used to refer to belief without supporting evidence or proof. Skeptical atheism certainly doesn't fit that definition, as skeptical atheism has no beliefs. Strong atheism is closer, but still doesn't really match, as even the most dogmatic atheist will tend to refer to experimental data (or the lack of it) when asserting that God does not exist. "How do atheists differ from religious people?" They don't believe in God. That's all there is to it. Atheists may listen to heavy metal--backwards, even--or they may prefer a Verdi Requiem, even if they know the words. They may wear Hawaiian shirts, they may dress all in black, they may even wear orange robes. (Many Buddhists lack a belief in any sort of God.) Some atheists even carry a copy of the Bible around--for arguing against, of course! Whoever you are, the chances are you have met several atheists without realizing it. Atheists are usually unexceptional in behavior and appearance.
How many serious books on apologetics have you read?
Thought this might approriate for this thread: www.youtube.com/watch The video is called "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer". Enjoy!
That video is an utter joke...there is only one question in the entire thing that presents even the slightest bit of reasonable questioning, that would be the first one...Ever other question is easily answered by a very basic understanding of Biblical theology...It's funny too, because the video claims that it's targetting educated Christians...one would hope that someone trying to appeal to the sensibilities of Christians would know a little bit more about our theology and what we believe, it would save them the time of having to ask such basic questions in the form of a condescending video.
So since the answers are so obvious to you could please list the answers to those 10 questions for us less educated. Thank you in advance
I've answered them all on this forum before, more than once...It's a very common video for atheists to post...but since you probably won't want to be bothered with using a search function i'll do it once again
Question 1. Why doesn’t god heal Amputees?
This is, like I said, the only half intelligent question posed by the video...Romans states that The Lord blesses who he chooses to bless, and that it is the potter's choice what he does with his own clay...This may seem callous or unloving, and at first glance I would agree...The best answer that I can provide is that they are amputees for a reason, this is, of course, of little consolation to someone who is missing their limbs...I understand that and feel for them on the deepest of levels, I truly do. I will have more to say on this tomorow, as I am fully aware that my answer will only suffice to other Christians.
Question 2. Why Are There So Many Starving People in our World?
"The Poor will always be among us" There are that many starving people in the world because humans are fallen, and greedy. The Bible does not promote an idea of God akin to a cosmic feeding troth...What's funny is that atheists are posing this question, yet it's because of materialism that there is so much poverty in the world. I'm not saying that atheists are the reason for starvation or world hunger, I'm saying that the want of material goods is the reason...This is, of course, not something that the Bible promotes. The idea that God should be feeding every person and interceding in the lives of evil do-ers in order to stop them from causing others pain is not Biblical...So to answer the question: Because there are so many people who are so full. Stop blaming God, start blaming your fellow man. A basic understanding of the Bible would answer why God doesn't just feed all of these people - Because he wants US to, that's the message the Jesus preached.
Question 3. Why Does God Demand The Death Of So Many Innocent People In The Bible?
I'm going to cross reference what I know with a few friends who have degrees in Bible and Theolgy, as well as Hebrew and Greek...(basically, going to talk to someone who is fluent in Hebrew since the citations in the video are from the old Testament) I'll go down the list of verses that the video uses at a later date when I have better answers than those that I could provide here or have provided in the past.
Question 4. Why does the bible contain some much Anti-Scientific Nonsense?
the 6000 year argument: I always take a deep sigh when it comes to this one...First of all, you can be a Christian without believing in a 6000 year old Earth, show me where in the Bible it says that the Earth is 6000 years old...secondly, this is a promotion by the video of evolutionary science, which, if you know ANYTHING about evolutionary science, you know that a great deal of it is based upon postulation with minimal imperical evidence.
Jonah and the Whale: To believe this of course requires a belief in God's power to sustain us...it's funny how the video chooses when God gets to be all powerful like in the case of global hunger, but makes him completely powerless in the case of Jonah.
Man made of Dust: once again this is an example of God's power being subverted for convenience...What's funny to me about this is that Richard Dawkins himself believes that all life sprung forth from self replicating clay crystals....so uhh...dust? Interesting...So the man who prides himself as one of the most logical and scientific atheists believes what the Bible says, but without God...fascinating really.
Question 5. Why is God a Big Proponet of slavery in the Bible?
he's not...never int he Bible does it say that Slavery is right...Slavery was a cultural norm at the time that the Bible adresses...The Bible says that we all have ONE master over all anyway, that being God...Slavery was also very different in Biblical times than it was in the last few centuries and today (Slavery is still quite rampant today) People often sold THEMSELVES into slavery to pay for debts...What the Bible does is flesh out how slaves should be treated, because it was a very different system than it is/was in more modern times. The Bible DOES condemn unjust forms of slavery, such as the kind that Pharoh lorded over the jews. Also, the Bible does indeed condemn the "man stealing" variety of slavery that sprung up with Afircan slaves during the 19th century: “Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death”
1 Timothy 1:8-10). also states that slave traders are ungodly and sinful and are no better than those who kill their parents.
Question 6. Why Does God Let Bad Things Happen To good People?
because God isn't a cosmic watchdog and never presents himself as such in the Bible...Once again this goes back to teh potter doing as he wishes with the clay...NOWHERE In the Bible does it say that being a Christian is going to make you have a good life, in fact it says the opposite, it says that you will be persecuted...if the people who are saved by faith will have difficult lives, what makes you think that anyone else would get a free ticket to happy town?
Question 7. Why didn’t Jesus’ Miracles In The Bible Leave Behind Any Evidence?
Are they serious? There are thousands of manuscripts that support the Gospels...It's ridiculous that they would even try to present this
Question 8.How Do we explain the fact that Jesus Has never Appeared to you?
I have had legitimate visions myself, of both the Godly and Demonic variety...I have also met a former Muslim terrorist who converted to Christianity after Jesus came to him in a vision...want to tell me that Jesus doesn't appear to people? I can tell you first hand that he does.
Question 9. Why does Jesus Want you to eat his body and drink his Blood?
.WOW...really? So they assume that people are educated but they don't understand what a metaphor is...awesome. Most Catholics don't even believe in transsubstantiation, let alone the rest of the Christian world.
Question 10. Why Do Christians Get Divorce The Same Rate as Non-Christians?
Sorry that we aren't perfect? Once again, The Bible does not promise happiness...It promises that what you believe will bring you joy, which as anyone with any scriptural knowledge knows, is quite different from happiness...I would also argue that Christians probably get divorced for very different reasons than non-chrisitians, and that they probably also get married at a higher rate per-relationship...most likely due to a desire to have sex (sad that this is true, of course once again we are not perfect people)
So you decide to do exactly what to video said you would do. Make up excuses and rationalizations.
What the video did was set any response up to fail by saying that Christians would make up excuses and rationalizations...It's easy to say something and then follow it up with "and if you disagree you are just being illogical" it's a tool that people use when they know that their arguments don't stand up to what is factual...the video proved a lack of knowledge about scripture, I proved that by posting MULTIPLE scriptural references regarding various subjects.
For example your answer to question #9 is just pure lie. Catholics any many other sects of Christiniaty literally believe that when bread and wine are consecrated they become body and blood of Christ. Even if you consider it as metaphor it's still a metaphor based on cannibalism and it quite well highlights how many of the things we consider to be part of Christian religion these days have their roots in pagan religions much older than Christianity.
I live around hundreds of Christians, not a single one of them that I have talked to about the subject believes that they are LITERALLY eating Jesus...it is always understood as a metaphor...this is a silly attempt by you and the atheists who made the video to try and discredit Christians by making a small group look stupid by pointing to a small sect in that group and acting as though thtey are the norm.
You think that I don't know anything about true believers well guess what, I was born into very religous family and I have for example read the whole Bible, which I know from my own experience, that many who have been Christians since childhood haven't done. So you can pretend that many Christians don't believe that praying God to bless their marriage doesn't raise their chance of happy marriage or that the Old Testament isn't full of God telling you to kill people for the most absurd reasons or just God killing innocent people himself just to prove a point. Also I find it hilarious that you aknowledge that slavery was a cultural norm at the time which is of course true, but fail to realize that the same thing applies to the rest of the Bible too.
I never said any of what you just accused me of saying, I responded to the question of marriage by saying that Christians aren't perfect and the video assumes that somehow Christians aren't going to make mistakes because if there is a God then he will certainly bless everything that we do...You're putting words in my mouth and it's a very shallow attempt to discredit what I have said, anyone who reads my post will know that I never said any of what you just wrote.
Notice how I said many Christians instead of just Christians in the last paragraph ? The reason is of course that Christianiaty and pretty much every other religion there is so flexible that it can be tailored to suit your own needs. There are over two billion Christians but how many of them actually even practice the same religion in reality ? As you said for example you can easily skip that Earth is 6000 years old belief and make evolution fit your view of the Bible, but at the same time there will still be many Christians to whom saying that Earth isn't 6000 year old is a sacrilege. So which one of you is right and how can you even claim to follow the same religion with differences of opinion that huge ?
A Christian is someone who believes that Jesus Christ has died so taht the sins of the world would be forgiven, someone who believes that Jesus was the eternally begotten son of God is a Christian...Minor beliefs within that which have no bearing on the person or diety of Jesus do not come into play as far as I am concerned...You want to point out how this means that Christianity is too flexible and can fit any need but you could apply this principal to ANYTHING...is a human not a human simply because he is an amputee or is has an extra finger? It's the same thing, they are still human, and a person who believes in an old Earth or a new one is still a Christian.
Here are couple more questions for you to think about btw. Written by me since that video didn't ask them though I definitely don't claim that I invented these questions.
What I have never really understood is how Christians(and every other religion where this is true) can justify the "believe in Jesus or go to hell" stuff. I mean first of all there are those who lived their lifes before Christianity even existed, and still after Christianity was created there has been a huge number of people who never heard about it during their lifes. So did these people just go straight to hell or did they get some kind of free ride to heaven ?
Read the Bible, it's already in there..you say you grew up in a very strong Christian home but you lack even basic knowledge of this stuff, which makes me believe that you are either lying, or grew up in a Christian home where you refused to bother learning anything about the faith of your parents...Read Acts Chapter 17, it's right there spelled out for you...in case you can't be bothered to look it up though - 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”
Another thing is that people in this thread who say they believe in the Christian God would be most likely saying they believe in Allah if they their birth place had been different, and they had been brought up in that cultural environment. So do you go to hell just because you happen to born in the wrong place and don't get the right indoctrination ?
I love how you use the term "indoctrination"
I didn't grow up in a Christian home, my parents become Christians after I was already an adult...The gospel is present in most developed countries, and those who are without excuse are those who will be judged accordingly, this is what is Biblical...I point out that my parents weren't Christans as I was growing up because it shows you that for some people, Christianity is a choice, not somethign that they are born into...I take great offense at the notion that people are only Christians because their parents were because I AM the exception to that, and I know many others who are as well...I talked about a former Muslim terrorist who is now a Christian, do you think that he was brought up in a CHristian home? How do you think his parents reacted when he told thema bout his vision of Jesus?
Finally the idea of Heaven just doesn't make any sense. I mean for must of us Heaven would mean spending time with our loved ones but even if you love someone you will occasionally have bad days, fighting with your wife doesn't sound very Heavenly to me. Or maybe God chances your mind somehow that you don't ever wanna fight again but wouldn't that mean that you are basically on sedative drugs and not really yourself anymore. What if Heaven for person A means spending the eternity with persons B, C and D but for person B the idea of Heaven is spending eternity with B and D ? So does person A or B not get the Heaven he wanted or will God just create some kind of clones for everyone to be happy ? Etc. Heaven even as idea as is just pure logical impossibility.
Once again you are showing a gross lack of knowledge of scripture. First of all, it specifically says in the Bible that we will not have husbands and wives in Heaven, only that we will recognize one another. Your idea of Heaven is an Earthly and materialistic one, that is why it doesn't make sense to you. It doesn't matter what person A's idea of heaven is or what person B's idea of Heaven is...Heaven is Heaven regardless of what you think of it....the idea that Heaven is what you make of it is a very western idea with no basis in scripture.
Anyway I was just wanna raise questions if you can answer them to your own satisfaction, fair enough. I don't think there is much point debating this since believers can use pretty much anything as explanation while the other side has to rely on facts and logical thinking. Just be brave enough to actually questions your beliefs.
Way to end on a condescending "I'll let you have the last word but I'll stick in a jab that makes me feel better about myself" note....You're right, logical thinking has no place in apologetics...dude, really? I've talked circles around people in debates over the science of evolution, why? Because most people don't really know a damn thing about it...I've made a guy with a Master's degree in anthropology look like a fool in front of an entire classroom of students...Don't try to tell yourself that a belief in a God does not have any basis in fact or empirical evidence....all that you have to do is continue to ask "What caused that?" or "what was before that?" Until you finally come to eternity, it's the logical conclusion, one that you are in a very small minority in disagreeing with, whether you are a Christian or simply a deist.
edit: typos
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Thought this might approriate for this thread: www.youtube.com/watch The video is called "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer". Enjoy!
That video is an utter joke...there is only one question in the entire thing that presents even the slightest bit of reasonable questioning, that would be the first one...Ever other question is easily answered by a very basic understanding of Biblical theology...It's funny too, because the video claims that it's targetting educated Christians...one would hope that someone trying to appeal to the sensibilities of Christians would know a little bit more about our theology and what we believe, it would save them the time of having to ask such basic questions in the form of a condescending video.
So since the answers are so obvious to you could please list the answers to those 10 questions for us less educated. Thank you in advance
I've answered them all on this forum before, more than once...It's a very common video for atheists to post...but since you probably won't want to be bothered with using a search function i'll do it once again
Question 1. Why doesn’t god heal Amputees?
This is, like I said, the only half intelligent question posed by the video...Romans states that The Lord blesses who he chooses to bless, and that it is the potter's choice what he does with his own clay...This may seem callous or unloving, and at first glance I would agree...The best answer that I can provide is that they are amputees for a reason, this is, of course, of little consolation to someone who is missing their limbs...I understand that and feel for them on the deepest of levels, I truly do. I will have more to say on this tomorow, as I am fully aware that my answer will only suffice to other Christians.
Question 2. Why Are There So Many Starving People in our World?
"The Poor will always be among us" There are that many starving people in the world because humans are fallen, and greedy. The Bible does not promote an idea of God akin to a cosmic feeding troth...What's funny is that atheists are posing this question, yet it's because of materialism that there is so much poverty in the world. I'm not saying that atheists are the reason for starvation or world hunger, I'm saying that the want of material goods is the reason...This is, of course, not something that the Bible promotes. The idea that God should be feeding every person and interceding in the lives of evil do-ers in order to stop them from causing others pain is not Biblical...So to answer the question: Because there are so many people who are so full. Stop blaming God, start blaming your fellow man. A basic understanding of the Bible would answer why God doesn't just feed all of these people - Because he wants US to, that's the message the Jesus preached.
Question 3. Why Does God Demand The Death Of So Many Innocent People In The Bible?
I'm going to cross reference what I know with a few friends who have degrees in Bible and Theolgy, as well as Hebrew and Greek...(basically, going to talk to someone who is fluent in Hebrew since the citations in the video are from the old Testament) I'll go down the list of verses that the video uses at a later date when I have better answers than those that I could provide here or have provided in the past.
Question 4. Why does the bible contain some much Anti-Scientific Nonsense?
the 6000 year argument: I always take a deep sigh when it comes to this one...First of all, you can be a Christian without believing in a 6000 year old Earth, show me where in the Bible it says that the Earth is 6000 years old...secondly, this is a promotion by the video of evolutionary science, which, if you know ANYTHING about evolutionary science, you know that a great deal of it is based upon postulation with minimal imperical evidence.
Jonah and the Whale: To believe this of course requires a belief in God's power to sustain us...it's funny how the video chooses when God gets to be all powerful like in the case of global hunger, but makes him completely powerless in the case of Jonah.
Man made of Dust: once again this is an example of God's power being subverted for convenience...What's funny to me about this is that Richard Dawkins himself believes that all life sprung forth from self replicating clay crystals....so uhh...dust? Interesting...So the man who prides himself as one of the most logical and scientific atheists believes what the Bible says, but without God...fascinating really.
Question 5. Why is God a Big Proponet of slavery in the Bible?
he's not...never int he Bible does it say that Slavery is right...Slavery was a cultural norm at the time that the Bible adresses...The Bible says that we all have ONE master over all anyway, that being God...Slavery was also very different in Biblical times than it was in the last few centuries and today (Slavery is still quite rampant today) People often sold THEMSELVES into slavery to pay for debts...What the Bible does is flesh out how slaves should be treated, because it was a very different system than it is/was in more modern times. The Bible DOES condemn unjust forms of slavery, such as the kind that Pharoh lorded over the jews. Also, the Bible does indeed condemn the "man stealing" variety of slavery that sprung up with Afircan slaves during the 19th century: “Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death”
1 Timothy 1:8-10). also states that slave traders are ungodly and sinful and are no better than those who kill their parents.
Question 6. Why Does God Let Bad Things Happen To good People?
because God isn't a cosmic watchdog and never presents himself as such in the Bible...Once again this goes back to teh potter doing as he wishes with the clay...NOWHERE In the Bible does it say that being a Christian is going to make you have a good life, in fact it says the opposite, it says that you will be persecuted...if the people who are saved by faith will have difficult lives, what makes you think that anyone else would get a free ticket to happy town?
Question 7. Why didn’t Jesus’ Miracles In The Bible Leave Behind Any Evidence?
Are they serious? There are thousands of manuscripts that support the Gospels...It's ridiculous that they would even try to present this
Question 8.How Do we explain the fact that Jesus Has never Appeared to you?
I have had legitimate visions myself, of both the Godly and Demonic variety...I have also met a former Muslim terrorist who converted to Christianity after Jesus came to him in a vision...want to tell me that Jesus doesn't appear to people? I can tell you first hand that he does.
Question 9. Why does Jesus Want you to eat his body and drink his Blood?
.WOW...really? So they assume that people are educated but they don't understand what a metaphor is...awesome. Most Catholics don't even believe in transsubstantiation, let alone the rest of the Christian world.
Question 10. Why Do Christians Get Divorce The Same Rate as Non-Christians?
Sorry that we aren't perfect? Once again, The Bible does not promise happiness...It promises that what you believe will bring you joy, which as anyone with any scriptural knowledge knows, is quite different from happiness...I would also argue that Christians probably get divorced for very different reasons than non-chrisitians, and that they probably also get married at a higher rate per-relationship...most likely due to a desire to have sex (sad that this is true, of course once again we are not perfect people)
So you decide to do exactly what to video said you would do. Make up excuses and rationalizations.
What the video did was set any response up to fail by saying that Christians would make up excuses and rationalizations...It's easy to say something and then follow it up with "and if you disagree you are just being illogical" it's a tool that people use when they know that their arguments don't stand up to what is factual...the video proved a lack of knowledge about scripture, I proved that by posting MULTIPLE scriptural references regarding various subjects.
For example your answer to question #9 is just pure lie. Catholics any many other sects of Christiniaty literally believe that when bread and wine are consecrated they become body and blood of Christ. Even if you consider it as metaphor it's still a metaphor based on cannibalism and it quite well highlights how many of the things we consider to be part of Christian religion these days have their roots in pagan religions much older than Christianity.
I live around hundreds of Christians, not a single one of them that I have talked to about the subject believes that they are LITERALLY eating Jesus...it is always understood as a metaphor...this is a silly attempt by you and the atheists who made the video to try and discredit Christians by making a small group look stupid by pointing to a small sect in that group and acting as though thtey are the norm.
You think that I don't know anything about true believers well guess what, I was born into very religous family and I have for example read the whole Bible, which I know from my own experience, that many who have been Christians since childhood haven't done. So you can pretend that many Christians don't believe that praying God to bless their marriage doesn't raise their chance of happy marriage or that the Old Testament isn't full of God telling you to kill people for the most absurd reasons or just God killing innocent people himself just to prove a point. Also I find it hilarious that you aknowledge that slavery was a cultural norm at the time which is of course true, but fail to realize that the same thing applies to the rest of the Bible too.
I never said any of what you just accused me of saying, I responded to the question of marriage by saying that Christians aren't perfect and the video assumes that somehow Christians aren't going to make mistakes because if there is a God then he will certainly bless everything that we do...You're putting words in my mouth and it's a very shallow attempt to discredit what I have said, anyone who reads my post will know that I never said any of what you just wrote.
Notice how I said many Christians instead of just Christians in the last paragraph ? The reason is of course that Christianiaty and pretty much every other religion there is so flexible that it can be tailored to suit your own needs. There are over two billion Christians but how many of them actually even practice the same religion in reality ? As you said for example you can easily skip that Earth is 6000 years old belief and make evolution fit your view of the Bible, but at the same time there will still be many Christians to whom saying that Earth isn't 6000 year old is a sacrilege. So which one of you is right and how can you even claim to follow the same religion with differences of opinion that huge ?
A Christian is someone who believes that Jesus Christ has died so taht the sins of the world would be forgiven, someone who believes that Jesus was the eternally begotten son of God is a Christian...Minor beliefs within that which have no bearing on the person or diety of Jesus do not come into play as far as I am concerned...You want to point out how this means that Christianity is too flexible and can fit any need but you could apply this principal to ANYTHING...is a human not a human simply because he is an amputee or is has an extra finger? It's the same thing, they are still human, and a person who believes in an old Earth or a new one is still a Christian.
Here are couple more questions for you to think about btw. Written by me since that video didn't ask them though I definitely don't claim that I invented these questions.
What I have never really understood is how Christians(and every other religion where this is true) can justify the "believe in Jesus or go to hell" stuff. I mean first of all there are those who lived their lifes before Christianity even existed, and still after Christianity was created there has been a huge number of people who never heard about it during their lifes. So did these people just go straight to hell or did they get some kind of free ride to heaven ?
Read the Bible, it's already in there..you say you grew up in a very strong Christian home but you lack even basic knowledge of this stuff, which makes me believe that you are either lying, or grew up in a Christian home where you refused to bother learning anything about the faith of your parents...Read Acts Chapter 17, it's right there spelled out for you...in case you can't be bothered to look it up though - 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”
Another thing is that people in this thread who say they believe in the Christian God would be most likely saying they believe in Allah if they their birth place had been different, and they had been brought up in that cultural environment. So do you go to hell just because you happen to born in the wrong place and don't get the right indoctrination ?
I love how you use the term "indoctrination"
I didn't grow up in a Christian home, my parents become Christians after I was already an adult...The gospel is present in most developed countries, and those who are without excuse are those who will be judged accordingly, this is what is Biblical...I point out that my parents weren't Christans as I was growing up because it shows you that for some people, Christianity is a choice, not somethign that they are born into...I take great offense at the notion that people are only Christians because their parents were because I AM the exception to that, and I know many others who are as well...I talked about a former Muslim terrorist who is now a Christian, do you think that he was brought up in a CHristian home? How do you think his parents reacted when he told thema bout his vision of Jesus?
Finally the idea of Heaven just doesn't make any sense. I mean for must of us Heaven would mean spending time with our loved ones but even if you love someone you will occasionally have bad days, fighting with your wife doesn't sound very Heavenly to me. Or maybe God chances your mind somehow that you don't ever wanna fight again but wouldn't that mean that you are basically on sedative drugs and not really yourself anymore. What if Heaven for person A means spending the eternity with persons B, C and D but for person B the idea of Heaven is spending eternity with B and D ? So does person A or B not get the Heaven he wanted or will God just create some kind of clones for everyone to be happy ? Etc. Heaven even as idea as is just pure logical impossibility.
Once again you are showing a gross lack of knowledge of scripture. First of all, it specifically says in the Bible that we will not have husbands and wives in Heaven, only that we will recognize one another. Your idea of Heaven is an Earthly and materialistic one, that is why it doesn't make sense to you. It doesn't matter what person A's idea of heaven is or what person B's idea of Heaven is...Heaven is Heaven regardless of what you think of it....the idea that Heaven is what you make of it is a very western idea with no basis in scripture.
Anyway I was just wanna raise questions if you can answer them to your own satisfaction, fair enough. I don't think there is much point debating this since believers can use pretty much anything as explanation while the other side has to rely on facts and logical thinking. Just be brave enough to actually questions your beliefs.
Way to end on a condescending "I'll let you have the last word but I'll stick in a jab that makes me feel better about myself" note....You're right, logical thinking has no place in apologetics...dude, really? I've talked circles around people in debates over the science of evolution, why? Because most people don't really know a damn thing about it...I've made a guy with a Master's degree in anthropology look like a fool in front of an entire classroom of students...Don't try to tell yourself that a belief in a God does not have any basis in fact or empirical evidence....all that you have to do is continue to ask "What caused that?" or "what was before that?" Until you finally come to eternity, it's the logical conclusion, one that you are in a very small minority in disagreeing with, whether you are a Christian or simply a deist.
edit: typos
And that is the same question that nails religion as well, "who/what created your god/gods" with science we continue looking for the answer but with religion you stick your head in the sand and say, "I believe" or "I have faith" or "The (insert religious book) says". Odd that question would cause you to think your religion is correct....
- P.S. No a belief in any god doesn't have any Facts or Proof to back it up just a TON of guessing and supposition, as well as faith, superstition and often times a healthy dose of suspended logic, reasoning, and common sense.
- On a side note i wonder why its called common sense as "common sense" seems to vary greatly from one person to another, and from one community to another and even one country to another (even more pronunced on different sides of the globe). But thats a different topic for another thread....
Comments
Why would an atheist feel the need to explain their views on religion? If you don't believe in God, a god, or deities of any type, why would religion be a relevant topic?
Why would an atheist have a point of view on religion in the first place if they are uninvolved, non-believers?
If an atheist is trying to cause a believer to relinquish their faith, they are normally in for a very long, hard road with little chance of success. Simultaneously, if you don't share even the slightest interest or belief in the religious person's beliefs, and they are not personally causing you any harm at all, what is there to discuss?
Abbatoir / Abbatoir Cinq
Adnihilo
Beorn Judge's Edge
Somnulus
Perfect Black
----------------------
Asheron's Call / Asheron's Call 2
Everquest / Everquest 2
Anarchy Online
Shadowbane
Dark Age of Camelot
Star Wars Galaxies
Matrix Online
World of Warcraft
Guild Wars
City of Heroes
By the very fact that they ARE an atheist shows that they have a VERY strong point of view on religion. You can't fully discount something and label yourself without knowing the facts which cause that label to exsist place in the first place.
"The problem with the French is that they don't have a word for entrepreneur." -George W. Bush, discussing the decline of the French economy with British Prime Minister Tony Blair
By the very fact that they ARE an atheist shows that they have a VERY strong point of view on religion. You can't fully discount something and label yourself without knowing the facts which cause that label to exsist place in the first place.
No. Not necessarily. Atheists come in two flavors: Strong (thinks god doesn't exist for sure) and weak (doesn't know, but will not assume a large probability that there is a god) .
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
I guess that would make me a weak atheist/nihilist.
"All is false unless proven true"
That is my objective view on all things.
I have yet to have a divine message or anything of the sort sent to me, so I have no preference on any religion. Although morally I sit somewhere between Taoism and Christianity.
- On a side note anyone who claims they don't have a "Religon" and then states they belive in Jesus as the son of God and God is fooling themselves..... Your religon IS Christianity
A religion is an organized approach to human spirituality which usually encompasses a set of narratives, symbols, beliefs and practices, often with a supernatural or transcendent quality, that give meaning to the practitioner's experiences of life through reference to a higher power or truth.[1] It may be expressed through prayer, ritual, meditation, music and art, among other things. It may focus on specific supernatural, metaphysical, and moral claims about reality (the cosmos, and human nature) which may yield a set of religious laws, ethics, and a particular lifestyle. Religion also encompasses ancestral or cultural traditions, writings, history, and mythology, as well as personal faith and religious experience.
Taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion
Having a hard time seeing Atheism as a religon...
Atheism, as an explicit position, can be either the assertion that there are no deities,[1] or the rejection of theism.[2] It is also[3] defined more broadly as an absence of belief in deities, or nontheism.
Taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism
--But i agree with the rest of your post at this point its just beating
a dead horse
which is a compilation of ancient burial scrolls scrolls that PRE-DATES the bible by thousands of years and look specificaly at the uncanny similarities between Jesus and Horus, BOTH had Virgin births, BOTH performed many miracles and BOTH died were buried and descended to the underworld and then ROSE again..... Might just be coincidence but i doubt it....
just my opinion but .....
-- /carry on
which is a compilation of ancient burial scrolls scrolls that PRE-DATES the bible by thousands of years and look specificaly at the uncanny similarities between Jesus and Horus, BOTH had Virgin births, BOTH performed many miracles and BOTH died were buried and descended to the underworld and then ROSE again..... Might just be coincidence but i doubt it....
just my opinion but .....
-- /carry on
The Egyptian Book of the Dead issue can be resolved in at least two ways. One, if you assume the Jesus reserrection story and the virgin birth were made up, then we can see that they evidently copied from other, earlier myths. Again, this all follows IF you m ake the a priori assumtion that there is no God, or at least that Jesus was bunk.
If, however, you accept the witness accounts and the textual evidence as true, and believe Jesus was and is who he and the apostles said he was, one sees all these myths in a new light. Every dying and rising god, every virgin birth, ever sower of seeds and reaper of harvests, every self-sacrificing story from great and early ages were essentially foretelling His coming.
God has written eternity in the hearts of men. In our dreams, our visions, our deepest places is a desire for restoration, redemption, and Glory. God sent people all over the world this vision to prepare them all for the Christ.
Again, one's a priori view of things will lead one to interpret the data differently.
As someone who studied all this stuff extensively before I came to belief, I find the comparisons fascinating. As with CS Lewis, this commonality of experience in the spiritual views of all men ony lends evidence to the notion of there being a diety -- it certainly doesn't weaken it.
fishermage.blogspot.com
which is a compilation of ancient burial scrolls scrolls that PRE-DATES the bible by thousands of years and look specificaly at the uncanny similarities between Jesus and Horus, BOTH had Virgin births, BOTH performed many miracles and BOTH died were buried and descended to the underworld and then ROSE again..... Might just be coincidence but i doubt it....
just my opinion but .....
-- /carry on
The Egyptian Book of the Dead issue can be resolved in at least two ways. One, if you assume the Jesus reserrection story and the virgin birth were made up, then we can see that they evidently copied from other, earlier myths. Again, this all follows IF you m ake the a priori assumtion that there is no God, or at least that Jesus was bunk.
If, however, you accept the witness accounts and the textual evidence as true, and believe Jesus was and is who he and the apostles said he was, one sees all these myths in a new light. Every dying and rising god, every virgin birth, ever sower of seeds and reaper of harvests, every self-sacrificing story from great and early ages were essentially foretelling His coming.
God has written eternity in the hearts of men. In our dreams, our visions, our deepest places is a desire for restoration, redemption, and Glory. God sent people all over the world this vision to prepare them all for the Christ.
Again, one's a priori view of things will lead one to interpret the data differently.
As someone who studied all this stuff extensively before I came to belief, I find the comparisons fascinating. As with CS Lewis, this commonality of experience in the spiritual views of all men ony lends evidence to the notion of there being a diety -- it certainly doesn't weaken it.
- I don't quite follow... In following along that line of thought would that mean that because many cultures have fire breathing dragons that they to are real? What about aliens? (and NO not the illegal kind
). Many cultures describe those as well. Interesting line of thought .... Does that mean also that for thousands of years most men believed the earth was flat and you would fall of if you sailed too far does the fact that most men believed it lend evidence to the notion that the earth IS in fact flat or maybe it didn't weaken it?......
-I don't think popular = proof but thats just my opinion and i have been known to be wrong so maybe it does...
-I still don't follow ....
- Fascinating view points really proves that environment is the real key to the foundation and formation of the human mind and individual thought. Or so it seems .....
Religion (or Atheism in the same way) are a matter of choice and personal experience. Life shapes us to belief in a religion or to believe in materialism only. It is something very personal, which you cant really explain or "show someone". Life shapes us and we make choices based in it. It is nothing that can be transfered by talk. When someone is ready for a new view, you can accompany his or her way, but people cant really be talked into. Not if you are serious with whatever your world view is.
And why should you. If you are atheist or religious is it what you want to be, what fits to you. Changing the belief only based on a talk is cheap. Every true belief (or non belief) is based on experience not conversations. I think the value of conversations is hightly overrated.
Take this forum. How often did you ever see that someone who disagreed with something really acutally changed his view based on arguments? Truth be told, I have seen that VERY rarely, even tho gaming is a relatively uninportant issue. Religion is something very personal, or it should be. A different opinion makes some people feel threatened. In the end, it cant really be talked about. The only thing you CAN do, is say what you believe and how it came to be so. Many people are getting into circles of justification or without realizing want to convert the other. Its quite natural, when you believe in something - and in that even atheism IS a belief you chose.
Added to that, the big religions, like Christendom, have a strong emphasis to "convert" or "save" others, so you must expect a defensive reaction.
On a personal note I dont understand Atheism. Saying a human being is just a biological machine is like living in a dead world. Its a reality I would not like to live in. My religion is a matter of choice, since I wasnt raised in it. It inspires me to try to become part of something that is greater than me, something to find inner peace from, and without it... I dunno how a person can live, tbh. Believing that the world is just a material thing without soul or anything beyond mere matter is the most horrible concept of reality I can think of. So much for not getting defensive, teh.
Over the years I have had many pupils in the way I follow, and there was one thing all of them had in common, including me: they had come to a point in life, where they felt that just living on as a cogwheel of work in the machinery of the mundane world was no more enough. They felt empty, not content, and no "material food" (in the widest sense) could satisfy them. It is the central Buddhist idea that unhappyness can not be "cured" by gathering goods or reaching material goals, but by transforming the mind, the inner self. That is how all I know who started their spiritual journey, began it. Now if you are perfectly rounded and happy with your life, I can understand you feel no need to seek. But it is a bit short sighted to say, I dont believe in anything, because God The Maker himself didnt knock personally at my door to convince me.
If you ask such a question, maybe you must question yourself, if you are really content. If that materialism is really enough for you. There are many more roads than just the good old Holy Book circles, tho it may be enough for some, it is maybe not for a person with a naturally questioning mind. If you value logic highly, Christendom with it's strong emphasis on fables surely cant appeal you. But other pathways are much less in contrast to science. For instance Buddhism. (I am no Buddhist, its just an example.)
I regard spirituality, as I prefer to call it, as an endless quest, a continual development, no matter in what system you root yourself eventually. For me it is fundamentally rooted in my belief that the answers to all human questions dont lay in outside things. Its not the better government, the better laws or the better system - the betterment lies in a path inward.
And as to "God" (in the broadest sense, I dont believe in a traditional "God") knocking at your door: I am sure he knocks at every person's door once and then. He surely has knocked at yours once already, tho you may have preferred not to take note.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
which is a compilation of ancient burial scrolls scrolls that PRE-DATES the bible by thousands of years and look specificaly at the uncanny similarities between Jesus and Horus, BOTH had Virgin births, BOTH performed many miracles and BOTH died were buried and descended to the underworld and then ROSE again..... Might just be coincidence but i doubt it....
just my opinion but .....
-- /carry on
The Egyptian Book of the Dead issue can be resolved in at least two ways. One, if you assume the Jesus reserrection story and the virgin birth were made up, then we can see that they evidently copied from other, earlier myths. Again, this all follows IF you m ake the a priori assumtion that there is no God, or at least that Jesus was bunk.
If, however, you accept the witness accounts and the textual evidence as true, and believe Jesus was and is who he and the apostles said he was, one sees all these myths in a new light. Every dying and rising god, every virgin birth, ever sower of seeds and reaper of harvests, every self-sacrificing story from great and early ages were essentially foretelling His coming.
God has written eternity in the hearts of men. In our dreams, our visions, our deepest places is a desire for restoration, redemption, and Glory. God sent people all over the world this vision to prepare them all for the Christ.
Again, one's a priori view of things will lead one to interpret the data differently.
As someone who studied all this stuff extensively before I came to belief, I find the comparisons fascinating. As with CS Lewis, this commonality of experience in the spiritual views of all men ony lends evidence to the notion of there being a diety -- it certainly doesn't weaken it.
- I don't quite follow... In following along that line of thought would that mean that because many cultures have fire breathing dragons that they to are real? What about aliens? (and NO not the illegal kind
). Many cultures describe those as well. Interesting line of thought .... Does that mean also that for thousands of years most men believed the earth was flat and you would fall of if you sailed too far does the fact that most men believed it lend evidence to the notion that the earth IS in fact flat or maybe it didn't weaken it?......
-I don't think popular = proof but thats just my opinion and i have been known to be wrong so maybe it does...
-I still don't follow ....
- Fascinating view points really proves that environment is the real key to the foundation and formation of the human mind and individual thought. Or so it seems .....
No, I'm saying that it doesn't prove things either way, but if it DOES lean in any direction, it favors diety.
fishermage.blogspot.com
On a personal note I dont understand Atheism. Saying a human being is just a biological machine is like living in a dead world. Its a reality I would not like to live in.
I disagree, the atheists viewpoint strips the world and its workings of inherent meaning, that is true. But, at the same time, it frees humanity to create their own meaning for their lives and future. I don't have to believe in a creator to marvel at sunsets, or rock strata, or the dance of cells carrying out their coded instructions.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
Hemingway
On a personal note I dont understand Atheism. Saying a human being is just a biological machine is like living in a dead world. Its a reality I would not like to live in.
I disagree, the atheists viewpoint strips the world and its workings of inherent meaning, that is true. But, at the same time, it frees humanity to create their own meaning for their lives and future. I don't have to believe in a creator to marvel at sunsets, or rock strata, or the dance of cells carrying out their coded instructions.
Atheism is no necessity to create your own meaning. That is just in a certain concept of deity so. Religion is more than the Biblical idea of a creator making things and giving orders.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Atheism, as an explicit position, can be either the assertion that there are no deities,[1] or the rejection of theism.[2] It is also[3] defined more broadly as an absence of belief in deities, or nontheism.
Taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism
I would say skeptical Atheist best describes me. I simply want the 1 thing no religion as of yet can provide ..... PROOF
unequivocal , undeniable , evidentiary , unrefutable , scientifically testable ...... PROOF
Proof of any deity and the 1 CORRECT Religion give me those and you will have a believer.....
That 1st god should be easy enough for any religion where people claim to talk to a given deity on a daily basis ....
Yet still no PROOF... strange isn't it?
Just a bit of INFO on some forms of Atheism for anyone interested.
Edit: Taken from http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/intro.html
"But isn't disbelieving in God the same thing as believing he doesn't exist?"
Definitely not. Disbelief in a proposition means that one does not believe it to be true. Not believing that something is true is not equivalent to believing that it is false; one may simply have no idea whether it is true or not. Which brings us to agnosticism.
"What is agnosticism then?"
The term 'agnosticism' was coined by Professor T.H. Huxley at a meeting of the Metaphysical Society in 1876. He defined an "agnostic" as someone who disclaimed both ("strong") atheism and theism, and who believed that the question of whether a higher power existed was unsolved and insoluble. Another way of putting it is that an agnostic is someone who believes that we do not know for sure whether God exists. Some agnostics believe that we can never know.
In recent years, however, the term agnostic has also been used to describe those who simply believe that the evidence for or against God is inconclusive, and therefore are undecided about the issue.
To reduce the amount of confusion over the use of term agnosticism, it is recommended that usage based on a belief that we cannot know whether God exists be qualified as "strict agnosticism" and usage based on the belief that we merely do not know yet be qualified as "empirical agnosticism."
Words are slippery things, and language is inexact. Beware of assuming that you can work out someone's philosophical point of view simply from the fact that she calls herself an atheist or an agnostic. For example, many people use agnosticism to mean what is referred to here as "weak atheism," and use the word "atheism" only when referring to "strong atheism."
Beware also that because the word "atheist" has so many shades of meaning that it is very difficult to generalize about atheists. About all you can say for sure is that atheists don't believe in God. For example, it certainly isn't the case that all atheists believe that science is the best way to find out about the universe.
"OK, maybe it's not a religion in the strict sense of the word. But surely belief in atheism (or science) is still just an act of faith, like religion is?"
Firstly, it's not entirely clear that skeptical atheism is something one actually believes in.
Secondly, it is necessary to adopt a number of core beliefs or assumptions to make some sort of sense out of the sensory data we experience. Most atheists try to adopt as few core beliefs as possible; and even those are subject to questioning if experience throws them into doubt.
Science has a number of core assumptions. For example, it is generally assumed that the laws of physics are the same for all observers (or at least, all observers in inertial frames). These are the sort of core assumptions atheists make. If such basic ideas are called "acts of faith," then almost everything we know must be said to be based on acts of faith, and the term loses its meaning.
Faith is more often used to refer to complete, certain belief in something. According to such a definition, atheism and science are certainly not acts of faith. Of course, individual atheists or scientists can be as dogmatic as religious followers when claiming that something is "certain." This is not a general tendency, however; there are many atheists who would be reluctant to state with certainty that the universe exists.
Faith is also used to refer to belief without supporting evidence or proof. Skeptical atheism certainly doesn't fit that definition, as skeptical atheism has no beliefs. Strong atheism is closer, but still doesn't really match, as even the most dogmatic atheist will tend to refer to experimental data (or the lack of it) when asserting that God does not exist.
"How do atheists differ from religious people?"
They don't believe in God. That's all there is to it.
Atheists may listen to heavy metal--backwards, even--or they may prefer a Verdi Requiem, even if they know the words. They may wear Hawaiian shirts, they may dress all in black, they may even wear orange robes. (Many Buddhists lack a belief in any sort of God.) Some atheists even carry a copy of the Bible around--for arguing against, of course!
Whoever you are, the chances are you have met several atheists without realizing it. Atheists are usually unexceptional in behavior and appearance.
Thought this might approriate for this thread: www.youtube.com/watch The video is called "10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer". Enjoy!
That video is an utter joke...there is only one question in the entire thing that presents even the slightest bit of reasonable questioning, that would be the first one...Ever other question is easily answered by a very basic understanding of Biblical theology...It's funny too, because the video claims that it's targetting educated Christians...one would hope that someone trying to appeal to the sensibilities of Christians would know a little bit more about our theology and what we believe, it would save them the time of having to ask such basic questions in the form of a condescending video.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
That video is an utter joke...there is only one question in the entire thing that presents even the slightest bit of reasonable questioning, that would be the first one...Ever other question is easily answered by a very basic understanding of Biblical theology...It's funny too, because the video claims that it's targetting educated Christians...one would hope that someone trying to appeal to the sensibilities of Christians would know a little bit more about our theology and what we believe, it would save them the time of having to ask such basic questions in the form of a condescending video.
So since the answers are so obvious to you could please list the answers to those 10 questions for us less educated. Thank you in advance
Edit: here's something to keep you entertained while you write those 10 all explaining answers: Penn & Teller; The Bible is Bullshit.
www.youtube.com/watch
That video is an utter joke...there is only one question in the entire thing that presents even the slightest bit of reasonable questioning, that would be the first one...Ever other question is easily answered by a very basic understanding of Biblical theology...It's funny too, because the video claims that it's targetting educated Christians...one would hope that someone trying to appeal to the sensibilities of Christians would know a little bit more about our theology and what we believe, it would save them the time of having to ask such basic questions in the form of a condescending video.
So since the answers are so obvious to you could please list the answers to those 10 questions for us less educated. Thank you in advance
I've answered them all on this forum before, more than once...It's a very common video for atheists to post...but since you probably won't want to be bothered with using a search function i'll do it once again
Question 1. Why doesn’t god heal Amputees?
This is, like I said, the only half intelligent question posed by the video...Romans states that The Lord blesses who he chooses to bless, and that it is the potter's choice what he does with his own clay...This may seem callous or unloving, and at first glance I would agree...The best answer that I can provide is that they are amputees for a reason, this is, of course, of little consolation to someone who is missing their limbs...I understand that and feel for them on the deepest of levels, I truly do. I will have more to say on this tomorow, as I am fully aware that my answer will only suffice to other Christians.
Question 2. Why Are There So Many Starving People in our World?
"The Poor will always be among us" There are that many starving people in the world because humans are fallen, and greedy. The Bible does not promote an idea of God akin to a cosmic feeding troth...What's funny is that atheists are posing this question, yet it's because of materialism that there is so much poverty in the world. I'm not saying that atheists are the reason for starvation or world hunger, I'm saying that the want of material goods is the reason...This is, of course, not something that the Bible promotes. The idea that God should be feeding every person and interceding in the lives of evil do-ers in order to stop them from causing others pain is not Biblical...So to answer the question: Because there are so many people who are so full. Stop blaming God, start blaming your fellow man. A basic understanding of the Bible would answer why God doesn't just feed all of these people - Because he wants US to, that's the message the Jesus preached.
Question 3. Why Does God Demand The Death Of So Many Innocent People In The Bible?
I'm going to cross reference what I know with a few friends who have degrees in Bible and Theolgy, as well as Hebrew and Greek...(basically, going to talk to someone who is fluent in Hebrew since the citations in the video are from the old Testament) I'll go down the list of verses that the video uses at a later date when I have better answers than those that I could provide here or have provided in the past.
Question 4. Why does the bible contain some much Anti-Scientific Nonsense?
the 6000 year argument: I always take a deep sigh when it comes to this one...First of all, you can be a Christian without believing in a 6000 year old Earth, show me where in the Bible it says that the Earth is 6000 years old...secondly, this is a promotion by the video of evolutionary science, which, if you know ANYTHING about evolutionary science, you know that a great deal of it is based upon postulation with minimal imperical evidence.
Worldwide flood: I would beg to differ that there is no evidence for a global flood... http://www.answersingenesis.org/get-answers#/topic/flood That link will get you started
Jonah and the Whale: To believe this of course requires a belief in God's power to sustain us...it's funny how the video chooses when God gets to be all powerful like in the case of global hunger, but makes him completely powerless in the case of Jonah.
Man made of Dust: once again this is an example of God's power being subverted for convenience...What's funny to me about this is that Richard Dawkins himself believes that all life sprung forth from self replicating clay crystals....so uhh...dust? Interesting...So the man who prides himself as one of the most logical and scientific atheists believes what the Bible says, but without God...fascinating really.
Question 5. Why is God a Big Proponet of slavery in the Bible?
he's not...never int he Bible does it say that Slavery is right...Slavery was a cultural norm at the time that the Bible adresses...The Bible says that we all have ONE master over all anyway, that being God...Slavery was also very different in Biblical times than it was in the last few centuries and today (Slavery is still quite rampant today) People often sold THEMSELVES into slavery to pay for debts...What the Bible does is flesh out how slaves should be treated, because it was a very different system than it is/was in more modern times. The Bible DOES condemn unjust forms of slavery, such as the kind that Pharoh lorded over the jews. Also, the Bible does indeed condemn the "man stealing" variety of slavery that sprung up with Afircan slaves during the 19th century: “Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death”
1 Timothy 1:8-10). also states that slave traders are ungodly and sinful and are no better than those who kill their parents.
Question 6. Why Does God Let Bad Things Happen To good People?
because God isn't a cosmic watchdog and never presents himself as such in the Bible...Once again this goes back to teh potter doing as he wishes with the clay...NOWHERE In the Bible does it say that being a Christian is going to make you have a good life, in fact it says the opposite, it says that you will be persecuted...if the people who are saved by faith will have difficult lives, what makes you think that anyone else would get a free ticket to happy town?
Question 7. Why didn’t Jesus’ Miracles In The Bible Leave Behind Any Evidence?
Are they serious? There are thousands of manuscripts that support the Gospels...It's ridiculous that they would even try to present this
Question 8.How Do we explain the fact that Jesus Has never Appeared to you?
I have had legitimate visions myself, of both the Godly and Demonic variety...I have also met a former Muslim terrorist who converted to Christianity after Jesus came to him in a vision...want to tell me that Jesus doesn't appear to people? I can tell you first hand that he does.
Question 9. Why does Jesus Want you to eat his body and drink his Blood?
.WOW...really? So they assume that people are educated but they don't understand what a metaphor is...awesome. Most Catholics don't even believe in transsubstantiation, let alone the rest of the Christian world.
Question 10. Why Do Christians Get Divorce The Same Rate as Non-Christians?
Sorry that we aren't perfect? Once again, The Bible does not promise happiness...It promises that what you believe will bring you joy, which as anyone with any scriptural knowledge knows, is quite different from happiness...I would also argue that Christians probably get divorced for very different reasons than non-chrisitians, and that they probably also get married at a higher rate per-relationship...most likely due to a desire to have sex (sad that this is true, of course once again we are not perfect people)
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
That video is an utter joke...there is only one question in the entire thing that presents even the slightest bit of reasonable questioning, that would be the first one...Ever other question is easily answered by a very basic understanding of Biblical theology...It's funny too, because the video claims that it's targetting educated Christians...one would hope that someone trying to appeal to the sensibilities of Christians would know a little bit more about our theology and what we believe, it would save them the time of having to ask such basic questions in the form of a condescending video.
So since the answers are so obvious to you could please list the answers to those 10 questions for us less educated. Thank you in advance
I've answered them all on this forum before, more than once...It's a very common video for atheists to post...but since you probably won't want to be bothered with using a search function i'll do it once again
Question 1. Why doesn’t god heal Amputees?
This is, like I said, the only half intelligent question posed by the video...Romans states that The Lord blesses who he chooses to bless, and that it is the potter's choice what he does with his own clay...This may seem callous or unloving, and at first glance I would agree...The best answer that I can provide is that they are amputees for a reason, this is, of course, of little consolation to someone who is missing their limbs...I understand that and feel for them on the deepest of levels, I truly do. I will have more to say on this tomorow, as I am fully aware that my answer will only suffice to other Christians.
Question 2. Why Are There So Many Starving People in our World?
"The Poor will always be among us" There are that many starving people in the world because humans are fallen, and greedy. The Bible does not promote an idea of God akin to a cosmic feeding troth...What's funny is that atheists are posing this question, yet it's because of materialism that there is so much poverty in the world. I'm not saying that atheists are the reason for starvation or world hunger, I'm saying that the want of material goods is the reason...This is, of course, not something that the Bible promotes. The idea that God should be feeding every person and interceding in the lives of evil do-ers in order to stop them from causing others pain is not Biblical...So to answer the question: Because there are so many people who are so full. Stop blaming God, start blaming your fellow man. A basic understanding of the Bible would answer why God doesn't just feed all of these people - Because he wants US to, that's the message the Jesus preached.
Question 3. Why Does God Demand The Death Of So Many Innocent People In The Bible?
I'm going to cross reference what I know with a few friends who have degrees in Bible and Theolgy, as well as Hebrew and Greek...(basically, going to talk to someone who is fluent in Hebrew since the citations in the video are from the old Testament) I'll go down the list of verses that the video uses at a later date when I have better answers than those that I could provide here or have provided in the past.
Question 4. Why does the bible contain some much Anti-Scientific Nonsense?
the 6000 year argument: I always take a deep sigh when it comes to this one...First of all, you can be a Christian without believing in a 6000 year old Earth, show me where in the Bible it says that the Earth is 6000 years old...secondly, this is a promotion by the video of evolutionary science, which, if you know ANYTHING about evolutionary science, you know that a great deal of it is based upon postulation with minimal imperical evidence.
Worldwide flood: I would beg to differ that there is no evidence for a global flood... http://www.answersingenesis.org/get-answers#/topic/flood That link will get you started
Jonah and the Whale: To believe this of course requires a belief in God's power to sustain us...it's funny how the video chooses when God gets to be all powerful like in the case of global hunger, but makes him completely powerless in the case of Jonah.
Man made of Dust: once again this is an example of God's power being subverted for convenience...What's funny to me about this is that Richard Dawkins himself believes that all life sprung forth from self replicating clay crystals....so uhh...dust? Interesting...So the man who prides himself as one of the most logical and scientific atheists believes what the Bible says, but without God...fascinating really.
Question 5. Why is God a Big Proponet of slavery in the Bible?
he's not...never int he Bible does it say that Slavery is right...Slavery was a cultural norm at the time that the Bible adresses...The Bible says that we all have ONE master over all anyway, that being God...Slavery was also very different in Biblical times than it was in the last few centuries and today (Slavery is still quite rampant today) People often sold THEMSELVES into slavery to pay for debts...What the Bible does is flesh out how slaves should be treated, because it was a very different system than it is/was in more modern times. The Bible DOES condemn unjust forms of slavery, such as the kind that Pharoh lorded over the jews. Also, the Bible does indeed condemn the "man stealing" variety of slavery that sprung up with Afircan slaves during the 19th century: “Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death”
1 Timothy 1:8-10). also states that slave traders are ungodly and sinful and are no better than those who kill their parents.
Question 6. Why Does God Let Bad Things Happen To good People?
because God isn't a cosmic watchdog and never presents himself as such in the Bible...Once again this goes back to teh potter doing as he wishes with the clay...NOWHERE In the Bible does it say that being a Christian is going to make you have a good life, in fact it says the opposite, it says that you will be persecuted...if the people who are saved by faith will have difficult lives, what makes you think that anyone else would get a free ticket to happy town?
Question 7. Why didn’t Jesus’ Miracles In The Bible Leave Behind Any Evidence?
Are they serious? There are thousands of manuscripts that support the Gospels...It's ridiculous that they would even try to present this
Question 8.How Do we explain the fact that Jesus Has never Appeared to you?
I have had legitimate visions myself, of both the Godly and Demonic variety...I have also met a former Muslim terrorist who converted to Christianity after Jesus came to him in a vision...want to tell me that Jesus doesn't appear to people? I can tell you first hand that he does.
Question 9. Why does Jesus Want you to eat his body and drink his Blood?
.WOW...really? So they assume that people are educated but they don't understand what a metaphor is...awesome. Most Catholics don't even believe in transsubstantiation, let alone the rest of the Christian world.
Question 10. Why Do Christians Get Divorce The Same Rate as Non-Christians?
Sorry that we aren't perfect? Once again, The Bible does not promise happiness...It promises that what you believe will bring you joy, which as anyone with any scriptural knowledge knows, is quite different from happiness...I would also argue that Christians probably get divorced for very different reasons than non-chrisitians, and that they probably also get married at a higher rate per-relationship...most likely due to a desire to have sex (sad that this is true, of course once again we are not perfect people)
So you decide to do exactly what to video said you would do. Make up excuses and rationalizations.
For example your answer to question #9 is just pure lie. Catholics any many other sects of Christiniaty literally believe that when bread and wine are consecrated they become body and blood of Christ. Even if you consider it as metaphor it's still a metaphor based on cannibalism and it quite well highlights how many of the things we consider to be part of Christian religion these days have their roots in pagan religions much older than Christianity.
You think that I don't know anything about true believers well guess what, I was born into very religous family and I have for example read the whole Bible, which I know from my own experience, that many who have been Christians since childhood haven't done. So you can pretend that many Christians don't believe that praying God to bless their marriage doesn't raise their chance of happy marriage or that the Old Testament isn't full of God telling you to kill people for the most absurd reasons or just God killing innocent people himself just to prove a point. Also I find it hilarious that you aknowledge that slavery was a cultural norm at the time which is of course true, but fail to realize that the same thing applies to the rest of the Bible too.
Notice how I said many Christians instead of just Christians in the last paragraph ? The reason is of course that Christianiaty and pretty much every other religion there is so flexible that it can be tailored to suit your own needs. There are over two billion Christians but how many of them actually even practice the same religion in reality ? As you said for example you can easily skip that Earth is 6000 years old belief and make evolution fit your view of the Bible, but at the same time there will still be many Christians to whom saying that Earth isn't 6000 year old is a sacrilege. So which one of you is right and how can you even claim to follow the same religion with differences of opinion that huge ?
Here are couple more questions for you to think about btw. Written by me since that video didn't ask them though I definitely don't claim that I invented these questions.
What I have never really understood is how Christians(and every other religion where this is true) can justify the "believe in Jesus or go to hell" stuff. I mean first of all there are those who lived their lifes before Christianity even existed, and still after Christianity was created there has been a huge number of people who never heard about it during their lifes. So did these people just go straight to hell or did they get some kind of free ride to heaven ?
Another thing is that people in this thread who say they believe in the Christian God would be most likely saying they believe in Allah if they their birth place had been different, and they had been brought up in that cultural environment. So do you go to hell just because you happen to born in the wrong place and don't get the right indoctrination ?
Finally the idea of Heaven just doesn't make any sense. I mean for must of us Heaven would mean spending time with our loved ones but even if you love someone you will occasionally have bad days, fighting with your wife doesn't sound very Heavenly to me. Or maybe God chances your mind somehow that you don't ever wanna fight again but wouldn't that mean that you are basically on sedative drugs and not really yourself anymore. What if Heaven for person A means spending the eternity with persons B, C and D but for person B the idea of Heaven is spending eternity with B and D ? So does person A or B not get the Heaven he wanted or will God just create some kind of clones for everyone to be happy ? Etc. Heaven even as idea as is just pure logical impossibility.
Anyway I was just wanna raise questions if you can answer them to your own satisfaction, fair enough. I don't think there is much point debating this since believers can use pretty much anything as explanation while the other side has to rely on facts and logical thinking. Just be brave enough to actually questions your beliefs.
edit: typos
How many serious books on apologetics have you read?
fishermage.blogspot.com
That video is an utter joke...there is only one question in the entire thing that presents even the slightest bit of reasonable questioning, that would be the first one...Ever other question is easily answered by a very basic understanding of Biblical theology...It's funny too, because the video claims that it's targetting educated Christians...one would hope that someone trying to appeal to the sensibilities of Christians would know a little bit more about our theology and what we believe, it would save them the time of having to ask such basic questions in the form of a condescending video.
So since the answers are so obvious to you could please list the answers to those 10 questions for us less educated. Thank you in advance
I've answered them all on this forum before, more than once...It's a very common video for atheists to post...but since you probably won't want to be bothered with using a search function i'll do it once again
Question 1. Why doesn’t god heal Amputees?
This is, like I said, the only half intelligent question posed by the video...Romans states that The Lord blesses who he chooses to bless, and that it is the potter's choice what he does with his own clay...This may seem callous or unloving, and at first glance I would agree...The best answer that I can provide is that they are amputees for a reason, this is, of course, of little consolation to someone who is missing their limbs...I understand that and feel for them on the deepest of levels, I truly do. I will have more to say on this tomorow, as I am fully aware that my answer will only suffice to other Christians.
Question 2. Why Are There So Many Starving People in our World?
"The Poor will always be among us" There are that many starving people in the world because humans are fallen, and greedy. The Bible does not promote an idea of God akin to a cosmic feeding troth...What's funny is that atheists are posing this question, yet it's because of materialism that there is so much poverty in the world. I'm not saying that atheists are the reason for starvation or world hunger, I'm saying that the want of material goods is the reason...This is, of course, not something that the Bible promotes. The idea that God should be feeding every person and interceding in the lives of evil do-ers in order to stop them from causing others pain is not Biblical...So to answer the question: Because there are so many people who are so full. Stop blaming God, start blaming your fellow man. A basic understanding of the Bible would answer why God doesn't just feed all of these people - Because he wants US to, that's the message the Jesus preached.
Question 3. Why Does God Demand The Death Of So Many Innocent People In The Bible?
I'm going to cross reference what I know with a few friends who have degrees in Bible and Theolgy, as well as Hebrew and Greek...(basically, going to talk to someone who is fluent in Hebrew since the citations in the video are from the old Testament) I'll go down the list of verses that the video uses at a later date when I have better answers than those that I could provide here or have provided in the past.
Question 4. Why does the bible contain some much Anti-Scientific Nonsense?
the 6000 year argument: I always take a deep sigh when it comes to this one...First of all, you can be a Christian without believing in a 6000 year old Earth, show me where in the Bible it says that the Earth is 6000 years old...secondly, this is a promotion by the video of evolutionary science, which, if you know ANYTHING about evolutionary science, you know that a great deal of it is based upon postulation with minimal imperical evidence.
Worldwide flood: I would beg to differ that there is no evidence for a global flood... http://www.answersingenesis.org/get-answers#/topic/flood That link will get you started
Jonah and the Whale: To believe this of course requires a belief in God's power to sustain us...it's funny how the video chooses when God gets to be all powerful like in the case of global hunger, but makes him completely powerless in the case of Jonah.
Man made of Dust: once again this is an example of God's power being subverted for convenience...What's funny to me about this is that Richard Dawkins himself believes that all life sprung forth from self replicating clay crystals....so uhh...dust? Interesting...So the man who prides himself as one of the most logical and scientific atheists believes what the Bible says, but without God...fascinating really.
Question 5. Why is God a Big Proponet of slavery in the Bible?
he's not...never int he Bible does it say that Slavery is right...Slavery was a cultural norm at the time that the Bible adresses...The Bible says that we all have ONE master over all anyway, that being God...Slavery was also very different in Biblical times than it was in the last few centuries and today (Slavery is still quite rampant today) People often sold THEMSELVES into slavery to pay for debts...What the Bible does is flesh out how slaves should be treated, because it was a very different system than it is/was in more modern times. The Bible DOES condemn unjust forms of slavery, such as the kind that Pharoh lorded over the jews. Also, the Bible does indeed condemn the "man stealing" variety of slavery that sprung up with Afircan slaves during the 19th century: “Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death”
1 Timothy 1:8-10). also states that slave traders are ungodly and sinful and are no better than those who kill their parents.
Question 6. Why Does God Let Bad Things Happen To good People?
because God isn't a cosmic watchdog and never presents himself as such in the Bible...Once again this goes back to teh potter doing as he wishes with the clay...NOWHERE In the Bible does it say that being a Christian is going to make you have a good life, in fact it says the opposite, it says that you will be persecuted...if the people who are saved by faith will have difficult lives, what makes you think that anyone else would get a free ticket to happy town?
Question 7. Why didn’t Jesus’ Miracles In The Bible Leave Behind Any Evidence?
Are they serious? There are thousands of manuscripts that support the Gospels...It's ridiculous that they would even try to present this
Question 8.How Do we explain the fact that Jesus Has never Appeared to you?
I have had legitimate visions myself, of both the Godly and Demonic variety...I have also met a former Muslim terrorist who converted to Christianity after Jesus came to him in a vision...want to tell me that Jesus doesn't appear to people? I can tell you first hand that he does.
Question 9. Why does Jesus Want you to eat his body and drink his Blood?
.WOW...really? So they assume that people are educated but they don't understand what a metaphor is...awesome. Most Catholics don't even believe in transsubstantiation, let alone the rest of the Christian world.
Question 10. Why Do Christians Get Divorce The Same Rate as Non-Christians?
Sorry that we aren't perfect? Once again, The Bible does not promise happiness...It promises that what you believe will bring you joy, which as anyone with any scriptural knowledge knows, is quite different from happiness...I would also argue that Christians probably get divorced for very different reasons than non-chrisitians, and that they probably also get married at a higher rate per-relationship...most likely due to a desire to have sex (sad that this is true, of course once again we are not perfect people)
So you decide to do exactly what to video said you would do. Make up excuses and rationalizations.
What the video did was set any response up to fail by saying that Christians would make up excuses and rationalizations...It's easy to say something and then follow it up with "and if you disagree you are just being illogical" it's a tool that people use when they know that their arguments don't stand up to what is factual...the video proved a lack of knowledge about scripture, I proved that by posting MULTIPLE scriptural references regarding various subjects.
For example your answer to question #9 is just pure lie. Catholics any many other sects of Christiniaty literally believe that when bread and wine are consecrated they become body and blood of Christ. Even if you consider it as metaphor it's still a metaphor based on cannibalism and it quite well highlights how many of the things we consider to be part of Christian religion these days have their roots in pagan religions much older than Christianity.
I live around hundreds of Christians, not a single one of them that I have talked to about the subject believes that they are LITERALLY eating Jesus...it is always understood as a metaphor...this is a silly attempt by you and the atheists who made the video to try and discredit Christians by making a small group look stupid by pointing to a small sect in that group and acting as though thtey are the norm.
You think that I don't know anything about true believers well guess what, I was born into very religous family and I have for example read the whole Bible, which I know from my own experience, that many who have been Christians since childhood haven't done. So you can pretend that many Christians don't believe that praying God to bless their marriage doesn't raise their chance of happy marriage or that the Old Testament isn't full of God telling you to kill people for the most absurd reasons or just God killing innocent people himself just to prove a point. Also I find it hilarious that you aknowledge that slavery was a cultural norm at the time which is of course true, but fail to realize that the same thing applies to the rest of the Bible too.
I never said any of what you just accused me of saying, I responded to the question of marriage by saying that Christians aren't perfect and the video assumes that somehow Christians aren't going to make mistakes because if there is a God then he will certainly bless everything that we do...You're putting words in my mouth and it's a very shallow attempt to discredit what I have said, anyone who reads my post will know that I never said any of what you just wrote.
Notice how I said many Christians instead of just Christians in the last paragraph ? The reason is of course that Christianiaty and pretty much every other religion there is so flexible that it can be tailored to suit your own needs. There are over two billion Christians but how many of them actually even practice the same religion in reality ? As you said for example you can easily skip that Earth is 6000 years old belief and make evolution fit your view of the Bible, but at the same time there will still be many Christians to whom saying that Earth isn't 6000 year old is a sacrilege. So which one of you is right and how can you even claim to follow the same religion with differences of opinion that huge ?
A Christian is someone who believes that Jesus Christ has died so taht the sins of the world would be forgiven, someone who believes that Jesus was the eternally begotten son of God is a Christian...Minor beliefs within that which have no bearing on the person or diety of Jesus do not come into play as far as I am concerned...You want to point out how this means that Christianity is too flexible and can fit any need but you could apply this principal to ANYTHING...is a human not a human simply because he is an amputee or is has an extra finger? It's the same thing, they are still human, and a person who believes in an old Earth or a new one is still a Christian.
Here are couple more questions for you to think about btw. Written by me since that video didn't ask them though I definitely don't claim that I invented these questions.
What I have never really understood is how Christians(and every other religion where this is true) can justify the "believe in Jesus or go to hell" stuff. I mean first of all there are those who lived their lifes before Christianity even existed, and still after Christianity was created there has been a huge number of people who never heard about it during their lifes. So did these people just go straight to hell or did they get some kind of free ride to heaven ?
Read the Bible, it's already in there..you say you grew up in a very strong Christian home but you lack even basic knowledge of this stuff, which makes me believe that you are either lying, or grew up in a Christian home where you refused to bother learning anything about the faith of your parents...Read Acts Chapter 17, it's right there spelled out for you...in case you can't be bothered to look it up though - 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”
Another thing is that people in this thread who say they believe in the Christian God would be most likely saying they believe in Allah if they their birth place had been different, and they had been brought up in that cultural environment. So do you go to hell just because you happen to born in the wrong place and don't get the right indoctrination ?
I love how you use the term "indoctrination"
I didn't grow up in a Christian home, my parents become Christians after I was already an adult...The gospel is present in most developed countries, and those who are without excuse are those who will be judged accordingly, this is what is Biblical...I point out that my parents weren't Christans as I was growing up because it shows you that for some people, Christianity is a choice, not somethign that they are born into...I take great offense at the notion that people are only Christians because their parents were because I AM the exception to that, and I know many others who are as well...I talked about a former Muslim terrorist who is now a Christian, do you think that he was brought up in a CHristian home? How do you think his parents reacted when he told thema bout his vision of Jesus?
Finally the idea of Heaven just doesn't make any sense. I mean for must of us Heaven would mean spending time with our loved ones but even if you love someone you will occasionally have bad days, fighting with your wife doesn't sound very Heavenly to me. Or maybe God chances your mind somehow that you don't ever wanna fight again but wouldn't that mean that you are basically on sedative drugs and not really yourself anymore. What if Heaven for person A means spending the eternity with persons B, C and D but for person B the idea of Heaven is spending eternity with B and D ? So does person A or B not get the Heaven he wanted or will God just create some kind of clones for everyone to be happy ? Etc. Heaven even as idea as is just pure logical impossibility.
Once again you are showing a gross lack of knowledge of scripture. First of all, it specifically says in the Bible that we will not have husbands and wives in Heaven, only that we will recognize one another. Your idea of Heaven is an Earthly and materialistic one, that is why it doesn't make sense to you. It doesn't matter what person A's idea of heaven is or what person B's idea of Heaven is...Heaven is Heaven regardless of what you think of it....the idea that Heaven is what you make of it is a very western idea with no basis in scripture.
Anyway I was just wanna raise questions if you can answer them to your own satisfaction, fair enough. I don't think there is much point debating this since believers can use pretty much anything as explanation while the other side has to rely on facts and logical thinking. Just be brave enough to actually questions your beliefs.
Way to end on a condescending "I'll let you have the last word but I'll stick in a jab that makes me feel better about myself" note....You're right, logical thinking has no place in apologetics...dude, really? I've talked circles around people in debates over the science of evolution, why? Because most people don't really know a damn thing about it...I've made a guy with a Master's degree in anthropology look like a fool in front of an entire classroom of students...Don't try to tell yourself that a belief in a God does not have any basis in fact or empirical evidence....all that you have to do is continue to ask "What caused that?" or "what was before that?" Until you finally come to eternity, it's the logical conclusion, one that you are in a very small minority in disagreeing with, whether you are a Christian or simply a deist.
edit: typos
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
That video is an utter joke...there is only one question in the entire thing that presents even the slightest bit of reasonable questioning, that would be the first one...Ever other question is easily answered by a very basic understanding of Biblical theology...It's funny too, because the video claims that it's targetting educated Christians...one would hope that someone trying to appeal to the sensibilities of Christians would know a little bit more about our theology and what we believe, it would save them the time of having to ask such basic questions in the form of a condescending video.
So since the answers are so obvious to you could please list the answers to those 10 questions for us less educated. Thank you in advance
I've answered them all on this forum before, more than once...It's a very common video for atheists to post...but since you probably won't want to be bothered with using a search function i'll do it once again
Question 1. Why doesn’t god heal Amputees?
This is, like I said, the only half intelligent question posed by the video...Romans states that The Lord blesses who he chooses to bless, and that it is the potter's choice what he does with his own clay...This may seem callous or unloving, and at first glance I would agree...The best answer that I can provide is that they are amputees for a reason, this is, of course, of little consolation to someone who is missing their limbs...I understand that and feel for them on the deepest of levels, I truly do. I will have more to say on this tomorow, as I am fully aware that my answer will only suffice to other Christians.
Question 2. Why Are There So Many Starving People in our World?
"The Poor will always be among us" There are that many starving people in the world because humans are fallen, and greedy. The Bible does not promote an idea of God akin to a cosmic feeding troth...What's funny is that atheists are posing this question, yet it's because of materialism that there is so much poverty in the world. I'm not saying that atheists are the reason for starvation or world hunger, I'm saying that the want of material goods is the reason...This is, of course, not something that the Bible promotes. The idea that God should be feeding every person and interceding in the lives of evil do-ers in order to stop them from causing others pain is not Biblical...So to answer the question: Because there are so many people who are so full. Stop blaming God, start blaming your fellow man. A basic understanding of the Bible would answer why God doesn't just feed all of these people - Because he wants US to, that's the message the Jesus preached.
Question 3. Why Does God Demand The Death Of So Many Innocent People In The Bible?
I'm going to cross reference what I know with a few friends who have degrees in Bible and Theolgy, as well as Hebrew and Greek...(basically, going to talk to someone who is fluent in Hebrew since the citations in the video are from the old Testament) I'll go down the list of verses that the video uses at a later date when I have better answers than those that I could provide here or have provided in the past.
Question 4. Why does the bible contain some much Anti-Scientific Nonsense?
the 6000 year argument: I always take a deep sigh when it comes to this one...First of all, you can be a Christian without believing in a 6000 year old Earth, show me where in the Bible it says that the Earth is 6000 years old...secondly, this is a promotion by the video of evolutionary science, which, if you know ANYTHING about evolutionary science, you know that a great deal of it is based upon postulation with minimal imperical evidence.
Worldwide flood: I would beg to differ that there is no evidence for a global flood... http://www.answersingenesis.org/get-answers#/topic/flood That link will get you started
Jonah and the Whale: To believe this of course requires a belief in God's power to sustain us...it's funny how the video chooses when God gets to be all powerful like in the case of global hunger, but makes him completely powerless in the case of Jonah.
Man made of Dust: once again this is an example of God's power being subverted for convenience...What's funny to me about this is that Richard Dawkins himself believes that all life sprung forth from self replicating clay crystals....so uhh...dust? Interesting...So the man who prides himself as one of the most logical and scientific atheists believes what the Bible says, but without God...fascinating really.
Question 5. Why is God a Big Proponet of slavery in the Bible?
he's not...never int he Bible does it say that Slavery is right...Slavery was a cultural norm at the time that the Bible adresses...The Bible says that we all have ONE master over all anyway, that being God...Slavery was also very different in Biblical times than it was in the last few centuries and today (Slavery is still quite rampant today) People often sold THEMSELVES into slavery to pay for debts...What the Bible does is flesh out how slaves should be treated, because it was a very different system than it is/was in more modern times. The Bible DOES condemn unjust forms of slavery, such as the kind that Pharoh lorded over the jews. Also, the Bible does indeed condemn the "man stealing" variety of slavery that sprung up with Afircan slaves during the 19th century: “Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death”
1 Timothy 1:8-10). also states that slave traders are ungodly and sinful and are no better than those who kill their parents.
Question 6. Why Does God Let Bad Things Happen To good People?
because God isn't a cosmic watchdog and never presents himself as such in the Bible...Once again this goes back to teh potter doing as he wishes with the clay...NOWHERE In the Bible does it say that being a Christian is going to make you have a good life, in fact it says the opposite, it says that you will be persecuted...if the people who are saved by faith will have difficult lives, what makes you think that anyone else would get a free ticket to happy town?
Question 7. Why didn’t Jesus’ Miracles In The Bible Leave Behind Any Evidence?
Are they serious? There are thousands of manuscripts that support the Gospels...It's ridiculous that they would even try to present this
Question 8.How Do we explain the fact that Jesus Has never Appeared to you?
I have had legitimate visions myself, of both the Godly and Demonic variety...I have also met a former Muslim terrorist who converted to Christianity after Jesus came to him in a vision...want to tell me that Jesus doesn't appear to people? I can tell you first hand that he does.
Question 9. Why does Jesus Want you to eat his body and drink his Blood?
.WOW...really? So they assume that people are educated but they don't understand what a metaphor is...awesome. Most Catholics don't even believe in transsubstantiation, let alone the rest of the Christian world.
Question 10. Why Do Christians Get Divorce The Same Rate as Non-Christians?
Sorry that we aren't perfect? Once again, The Bible does not promise happiness...It promises that what you believe will bring you joy, which as anyone with any scriptural knowledge knows, is quite different from happiness...I would also argue that Christians probably get divorced for very different reasons than non-chrisitians, and that they probably also get married at a higher rate per-relationship...most likely due to a desire to have sex (sad that this is true, of course once again we are not perfect people)
So you decide to do exactly what to video said you would do. Make up excuses and rationalizations.
What the video did was set any response up to fail by saying that Christians would make up excuses and rationalizations...It's easy to say something and then follow it up with "and if you disagree you are just being illogical" it's a tool that people use when they know that their arguments don't stand up to what is factual...the video proved a lack of knowledge about scripture, I proved that by posting MULTIPLE scriptural references regarding various subjects.
For example your answer to question #9 is just pure lie. Catholics any many other sects of Christiniaty literally believe that when bread and wine are consecrated they become body and blood of Christ. Even if you consider it as metaphor it's still a metaphor based on cannibalism and it quite well highlights how many of the things we consider to be part of Christian religion these days have their roots in pagan religions much older than Christianity.
I live around hundreds of Christians, not a single one of them that I have talked to about the subject believes that they are LITERALLY eating Jesus...it is always understood as a metaphor...this is a silly attempt by you and the atheists who made the video to try and discredit Christians by making a small group look stupid by pointing to a small sect in that group and acting as though thtey are the norm.
You think that I don't know anything about true believers well guess what, I was born into very religous family and I have for example read the whole Bible, which I know from my own experience, that many who have been Christians since childhood haven't done. So you can pretend that many Christians don't believe that praying God to bless their marriage doesn't raise their chance of happy marriage or that the Old Testament isn't full of God telling you to kill people for the most absurd reasons or just God killing innocent people himself just to prove a point. Also I find it hilarious that you aknowledge that slavery was a cultural norm at the time which is of course true, but fail to realize that the same thing applies to the rest of the Bible too.
I never said any of what you just accused me of saying, I responded to the question of marriage by saying that Christians aren't perfect and the video assumes that somehow Christians aren't going to make mistakes because if there is a God then he will certainly bless everything that we do...You're putting words in my mouth and it's a very shallow attempt to discredit what I have said, anyone who reads my post will know that I never said any of what you just wrote.
Notice how I said many Christians instead of just Christians in the last paragraph ? The reason is of course that Christianiaty and pretty much every other religion there is so flexible that it can be tailored to suit your own needs. There are over two billion Christians but how many of them actually even practice the same religion in reality ? As you said for example you can easily skip that Earth is 6000 years old belief and make evolution fit your view of the Bible, but at the same time there will still be many Christians to whom saying that Earth isn't 6000 year old is a sacrilege. So which one of you is right and how can you even claim to follow the same religion with differences of opinion that huge ?
A Christian is someone who believes that Jesus Christ has died so taht the sins of the world would be forgiven, someone who believes that Jesus was the eternally begotten son of God is a Christian...Minor beliefs within that which have no bearing on the person or diety of Jesus do not come into play as far as I am concerned...You want to point out how this means that Christianity is too flexible and can fit any need but you could apply this principal to ANYTHING...is a human not a human simply because he is an amputee or is has an extra finger? It's the same thing, they are still human, and a person who believes in an old Earth or a new one is still a Christian.
Here are couple more questions for you to think about btw. Written by me since that video didn't ask them though I definitely don't claim that I invented these questions.
What I have never really understood is how Christians(and every other religion where this is true) can justify the "believe in Jesus or go to hell" stuff. I mean first of all there are those who lived their lifes before Christianity even existed, and still after Christianity was created there has been a huge number of people who never heard about it during their lifes. So did these people just go straight to hell or did they get some kind of free ride to heaven ?
Read the Bible, it's already in there..you say you grew up in a very strong Christian home but you lack even basic knowledge of this stuff, which makes me believe that you are either lying, or grew up in a Christian home where you refused to bother learning anything about the faith of your parents...Read Acts Chapter 17, it's right there spelled out for you...in case you can't be bothered to look it up though - 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”
Another thing is that people in this thread who say they believe in the Christian God would be most likely saying they believe in Allah if they their birth place had been different, and they had been brought up in that cultural environment. So do you go to hell just because you happen to born in the wrong place and don't get the right indoctrination ?
I love how you use the term "indoctrination"
I didn't grow up in a Christian home, my parents become Christians after I was already an adult...The gospel is present in most developed countries, and those who are without excuse are those who will be judged accordingly, this is what is Biblical...I point out that my parents weren't Christans as I was growing up because it shows you that for some people, Christianity is a choice, not somethign that they are born into...I take great offense at the notion that people are only Christians because their parents were because I AM the exception to that, and I know many others who are as well...I talked about a former Muslim terrorist who is now a Christian, do you think that he was brought up in a CHristian home? How do you think his parents reacted when he told thema bout his vision of Jesus?
Finally the idea of Heaven just doesn't make any sense. I mean for must of us Heaven would mean spending time with our loved ones but even if you love someone you will occasionally have bad days, fighting with your wife doesn't sound very Heavenly to me. Or maybe God chances your mind somehow that you don't ever wanna fight again but wouldn't that mean that you are basically on sedative drugs and not really yourself anymore. What if Heaven for person A means spending the eternity with persons B, C and D but for person B the idea of Heaven is spending eternity with B and D ? So does person A or B not get the Heaven he wanted or will God just create some kind of clones for everyone to be happy ? Etc. Heaven even as idea as is just pure logical impossibility.
Once again you are showing a gross lack of knowledge of scripture. First of all, it specifically says in the Bible that we will not have husbands and wives in Heaven, only that we will recognize one another. Your idea of Heaven is an Earthly and materialistic one, that is why it doesn't make sense to you. It doesn't matter what person A's idea of heaven is or what person B's idea of Heaven is...Heaven is Heaven regardless of what you think of it....the idea that Heaven is what you make of it is a very western idea with no basis in scripture.
Anyway I was just wanna raise questions if you can answer them to your own satisfaction, fair enough. I don't think there is much point debating this since believers can use pretty much anything as explanation while the other side has to rely on facts and logical thinking. Just be brave enough to actually questions your beliefs.
Way to end on a condescending "I'll let you have the last word but I'll stick in a jab that makes me feel better about myself" note....You're right, logical thinking has no place in apologetics...dude, really? I've talked circles around people in debates over the science of evolution, why? Because most people don't really know a damn thing about it...I've made a guy with a Master's degree in anthropology look like a fool in front of an entire classroom of students...Don't try to tell yourself that a belief in a God does not have any basis in fact or empirical evidence....all that you have to do is continue to ask "What caused that?" or "what was before that?" Until you finally come to eternity, it's the logical conclusion, one that you are in a very small minority in disagreeing with, whether you are a Christian or simply a deist.
edit: typos
And that is the same question that nails religion as well, "who/what created your god/gods" with science we continue looking for the answer but with religion you stick your head in the sand and say, "I believe" or "I have faith" or "The (insert religious book) says". Odd that question would cause you to think your religion is correct....
- P.S. No a belief in any god doesn't have any Facts or Proof to back it up just a TON of guessing and supposition, as well as faith, superstition and often times a healthy dose of suspended logic, reasoning, and common sense.
- On a side note i wonder why its called common sense as "common sense" seems to vary greatly from one person to another, and from one community to another and even one country to another (even more pronunced on different sides of the globe). But thats a different topic for another thread....
Just let this thread die it has been going in and out for a while.