Could be worse, could do what the f2p asian grinders do and give up irl money to afk train.
Well, two of the core problems with this whole scam across all of the SOE titles are these:
1. People already pay the highest monthly fee of any game in the industry, already, before all of this pseudo RMT gambling thing happened. But that is not enough for the greedy Smed.
2. The game started and ran for years as monthly sub only and then, all of a sudden, new content that would otherwise have been done through crafters or others is suddenly in there as a function of RMT. Didn't start as RMT, but RMT came in and changed things a great deal, at the expense of already paying customers.
Were it an F2P asain grinder, neither of those would have been an issue.
Moral of the story stop buying playing cards for the free toys that are randomly inserted as that was not the intention in the first place. /shrug
riiiiight....
perhaps that is why on every tcg promotional email and web site the "toys" are advertised as follows at the center of the page:
Squadrons over Corellia
The Best Loot Yet:
Squadrons Over Corellia features more than 20 loot cards that are redeemable* in the Star Wars Galaxies MMO for fantastic virtual items. And since this release includes the starship mechanic, the hottest piece of loot just might be the all-new V-wing Starfighter!
Bounty Hunters
Discover over 20 new highly desirable loot items including the Armored Bantha Mount, the Zam Wesell Airspeeder, plus the first ever loot collection reward, the Merr-Sonn JT-12 jetpack!
I'm sorry but its up to the invidivual. I have been playing this game since before their TCG has been implmented. I play it now and I have no need or want of the diner or the speeder or whatever else they introduce. I am a bh and I only play BH. I am actually considered a very good BH and used as a source of information on how to make the class work. I dont have or use a jetpack of any kind and dont want one not with the way the move (Like a car along the ground in a strange horrizontal way due to the lack of the third axis. ) None of these items will make me a more effecitve BH. I prefer to have a ranchor mount which is an ingame BM mutation and use the stap speeder advanced and the bark from the GCW rewards and I have an AT-ST that I picked up for 2 mil from someone who didn't want it. You would not catch me dead using a jetpack as a bh...
As for the actual items. Anyone who CHOOSES to pay hundreds of dollars for a good loot card pull in SWG or WoW or any other game with a TCG has to have their head examined. The items are pixels and owned by the game makers. When the game goes the items go and everyone is busy trying to predict the demise of SWG. Given the fact that SWG is shutting down like every other week if you read these boards and the virtual items are not owned by the individual in any way shape or form and willl go poof the day the servers shut down one would have to be slightly retarded to spend this money on any single virtual item. So say what you will if you can't afford to loose it dont use the money no matter what happens you will never ever get it back so consider it gone good loot or not its gone forever.
You said people buying cards for loot was not SOE's intention in the first place. Hozloff disagreed with you and showed you why. His view that people buying cards for loot is the only intention SOE had...and pretty much proved his point. Do you still think that? Just wondering cause your reply was about something totally different. Why start a debate with someone in the first place if your gonna ignore what people are saying?
He may be debating, but I run by skim a thread comment on what I feel like and leave. As for "starting a debate" I quoted no one here he quoted me. He replied and ran by my computer again put in another 2 cents and left. I'm not debating and I never debate I throw in my two cents and agree or disagree as I see fit and leave. Whatever he is doing he can do and I"m not stopping him, but please excuse me if i dont take these issues serious enough to discuss them the way you want me too. Here is a newslflash I dont spend much time thinking about these threads I just post and leave. Apologies for not taking it as seriously as you are and "debating properly'. I simply dont care enough to bother
I'm also not "defending anything" I have seen no one of any authority prove that tcg's are gambling. I'm going by my power of reasoning and what I know. No one here has anymore to go on or any more authority to say something is gambling then I do to say its not. Both are opinions and until we know otherwise neither is either false or true. They are just statements made by laymen on a discussion board and that is all they are
Moral of the story stop buying playing cards for the free toys that are randomly inserted as that was not the intention in the first place. /shrug
riiiiight....
perhaps that is why on every tcg promotional email and web site the "toys" are advertised as follows at the center of the page:
Squadrons over Corellia
The Best Loot Yet:
Squadrons Over Corellia features more than 20 loot cards that are redeemable* in the Star Wars Galaxies MMO for fantastic virtual items. And since this release includes the starship mechanic, the hottest piece of loot just might be the all-new V-wing Starfighter!
Bounty Hunters
Discover over 20 new highly desirable loot items including the Armored Bantha Mount, the Zam Wesell Airspeeder, plus the first ever loot collection reward, the Merr-Sonn JT-12 jetpack!
I'm sorry but its up to the invidivual. I have been playing this game since before their TCG has been implmented. I play it now and I have no need or want of the diner or the speeder or whatever else they introduce. I am a bh and I only play BH. I am actually considered a very good BH and used as a source of information on how to make the class work. I dont have or use a jetpack of any kind and dont want one not with the way the move (Like a car along the ground in a strange horrizontal way due to the lack of the third axis. ) None of these items will make me a more effecitve BH. I prefer to have a ranchor mount which is an ingame BM mutation and use the stap speeder advanced and the bark from the GCW rewards and I have an AT-ST that I picked up for 2 mil from someone who didn't want it. You would not catch me dead using a jetpack as a bh...
As for the actual items. Anyone who CHOOSES to pay hundreds of dollars for a good loot card pull in SWG or WoW or any other game with a TCG has to have their head examined. The items are pixels and owned by the game makers. When the game goes the items go and everyone is busy trying to predict the demise of SWG. Given the fact that SWG is shutting down like every other week if you read these boards and the virtual items are not owned by the individual in any way shape or form and willl go poof the day the servers shut down one would have to be slightly retarded to spend this money on any single virtual item. So say what you will if you can't afford to loose it dont use the money no matter what happens you will never ever get it back so consider it gone good loot or not its gone forever.
You said people buying cards for loot was not SOE's intention in the first place. Hozloff disagreed with you and showed you why. His view that people buying cards for loot is the only intention SOE had...and pretty much proved his point. Do you still think that? Just wondering cause your reply was about something totally different. Why start a debate with someone in the first place if your gonna ignore what people are saying?
He may be debating, but I run by skim a thread comment on what I feel like and leave. As for "starting a debate" I quoted no one here he quoted me. He replied and ran by my computer again put in another 2 cents and left. I'm not debating and I never debate I throw in my two cents and agree or disagree as I see fit and leave. Whatever he is doing he can do and I"m not stopping him, but please excuse me if i dont take these issues serious enough to discuss them the way you want me too. Here is a newslflash I dont spend much time thinking about these threads I just post and leave. Apologies for not taking it as seriously as you are and "debating properly'. I simply dont care enough to bother
I'm also not "defending anything" I have seen no one of any authority prove that tcg's are gambling. I'm going by my power of reasoning and what I know. No one here has anymore to go on or any more authority to say something is gambling then I do to say its not. Both are opinions and until we know otherwise neither is either false or true. They are just statements made by laymen on a discussion board and that is all they are
Smedley has admitted that the card game was introduced so they could get into the micro transaction market. How is that authority enough for you?
Do you get a virtual item with each micro transaction? If you don't then that is in effect gambling as it relates to smedleys intentions. I'm not saying it is gambling to the degree of state/federal law violations, but still the same effect. You pay money for the chance to get something.
Not that any of this legal debate really matters when you look at the intent and purpose of the card games. It is undeniable that the goal was to get people to pay money for in game items. It is undeniable that these types of items were once the sole domain of players actions in the game and given as part of the subscription fee content updates or expansions.
Plain and simple soe is double dipping money from players for less content. Yet people continue to drink the cool aid and defend these vultures. It really boils down to a stupidity tax on subscribers.
And I thought I heard that some state agencies (I know I heard Texas thrown out in regards to this) were looking into whether SOE didn't violate some gambling laws by not listings odds of 'winning' certain cards.
And I thought I heard that some state agencies (I know I heard Texas thrown out in regards to this) were looking into whether SOE didn't violate some gambling laws by not listings odds of 'winning' certain cards.
The AGs' offices of consumer affairs (or the like) from Maryland, VA, and WVA have all communicated with me that they are looking into the TCG for SWG and for some other of SOE's titles, because of possible violations of different state gaming laws. Specifically two of them had a beef with the fact that it "gambling-like" in some respects AND that it was clearly aimed at those under 18. I had phone and email exchanges from 2 sets of investigators, but no follow up from WVA since the initial email. The AG office from DE didn't respond.
I am sure there are others out there that are doing the same....
He may be debating, but I run by skim a thread comment on what I feel like and leave. As for "starting a debate" I quoted no one here he quoted me. He replied and ran by my computer again put in another 2 cents and left. I'm not debating and I never debate I throw in my two cents and agree or disagree as I see fit and leave. Whatever he is doing he can do and I"m not stopping him, but please excuse me if i dont take these issues serious enough to discuss them the way you want me too. Here is a newslflash I dont spend much time thinking about these threads I just post and leave. Apologies for not taking it as seriously as you are and "debating properly'. I simply dont care enough to bother I'm also not "defending anything" I have seen no one of any authority prove that tcg's are gambling. I'm going by my power of reasoning and what I know. No one here has anymore to go on or any more authority to say something is gambling then I do to say its not. Both are opinions and until we know otherwise neither is either false or true. They are just statements made by laymen on a discussion board and that is all they are
Moral of the story stop buying playing cards for the free toys that are randomly inserted as that was not the intention in the first place. /shrug
riiiiight....
perhaps that is why on every tcg promotional email and web site the "toys" are advertised as follows at the center of the page:
Squadrons over Corellia
The Best Loot Yet:
Squadrons Over Corellia features more than 20 loot cards that are redeemable* in the Star Wars Galaxies MMO for fantastic virtual items. And since this release includes the starship mechanic, the hottest piece of loot just might be the all-new V-wing Starfighter!
Bounty Hunters
Discover over 20 new highly desirable loot items including the Armored Bantha Mount, the Zam Wesell Airspeeder, plus the first ever loot collection reward, the Merr-Sonn JT-12 jetpack!
I'm sorry but its up to the invidivual. I have been playing this game since before their TCG has been implmented. I play it now and I have no need or want of the diner or the speeder or whatever else they introduce. I am a bh and I only play BH. I am actually considered a very good BH and used as a source of information on how to make the class work. I dont have or use a jetpack of any kind and dont want one not with the way the move (Like a car along the ground in a strange horrizontal way due to the lack of the third axis. ) None of these items will make me a more effecitve BH. I prefer to have a ranchor mount which is an ingame BM mutation and use the stap speeder advanced and the bark from the GCW rewards and I have an AT-ST that I picked up for 2 mil from someone who didn't want it. You would not catch me dead using a jetpack as a bh...
As for the actual items. Anyone who CHOOSES to pay hundreds of dollars for a good loot card pull in SWG or WoW or any other game with a TCG has to have their head examined. The items are pixels and owned by the game makers. When the game goes the items go and everyone is busy trying to predict the demise of SWG. Given the fact that SWG is shutting down like every other week if you read these boards and the virtual items are not owned by the individual in any way shape or form and willl go poof the day the servers shut down one would have to be slightly retarded to spend this money on any single virtual item. So say what you will if you can't afford to loose it dont use the money no matter what happens you will never ever get it back so consider it gone good loot or not its gone forever.
You said people buying cards for loot was not SOE's intention in the first place. Hozloff disagreed with you and showed you why. His view that people buying cards for loot is the only intention SOE had...and pretty much proved his point. Do you still think that? Just wondering cause your reply was about something totally different. Why start a debate with someone in the first place if your gonna ignore what people are saying?
He may be debating, but I run by skim a thread comment on what I feel like and leave. As for "starting a debate" I quoted no one here he quoted me. He replied and ran by my computer again put in another 2 cents and left. I'm not debating and I never debate I throw in my two cents and agree or disagree as I see fit and leave. Whatever he is doing he can do and I"m not stopping him, but please excuse me if i dont take these issues serious enough to discuss them the way you want me too. Here is a newslflash I dont spend much time thinking about these threads I just post and leave. Apologies for not taking it as seriously as you are and "debating properly'. I simply dont care enough to bother
I'm also not "defending anything" I have seen no one of any authority prove that tcg's are gambling. I'm going by my power of reasoning and what I know. No one here has anymore to go on or any more authority to say something is gambling then I do to say its not. Both are opinions and until we know otherwise neither is either false or true. They are just statements made by laymen on a discussion board and that is all they are
Whatever.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Moral of the story stop buying playing cards for the free toys that are randomly inserted as that was not the intention in the first place. /shrug
riiiiight....
perhaps that is why on every tcg promotional email and web site the "toys" are advertised as follows at the center of the page:
Squadrons over Corellia
The Best Loot Yet:
Squadrons Over Corellia features more than 20 loot cards that are redeemable* in the Star Wars Galaxies MMO for fantastic virtual items. And since this release includes the starship mechanic, the hottest piece of loot just might be the all-new V-wing Starfighter!
Bounty Hunters
Discover over 20 new highly desirable loot items including the Armored Bantha Mount, the Zam Wesell Airspeeder, plus the first ever loot collection reward, the Merr-Sonn JT-12 jetpack!
I'm sorry but its up to the invidivual. I have been playing this game since before their TCG has been implmented. I play it now and I have no need or want of the diner or the speeder or whatever else they introduce. I am a bh and I only play BH. I am actually considered a very good BH and used as a source of information on how to make the class work. I dont have or use a jetpack of any kind and dont want one not with the way the move (Like a car along the ground in a strange horrizontal way due to the lack of the third axis. ) None of these items will make me a more effecitve BH. I prefer to have a ranchor mount which is an ingame BM mutation and use the stap speeder advanced and the bark from the GCW rewards and I have an AT-ST that I picked up for 2 mil from someone who didn't want it. You would not catch me dead using a jetpack as a bh...
As for the actual items. Anyone who CHOOSES to pay hundreds of dollars for a good loot card pull in SWG or WoW or any other game with a TCG has to have their head examined. The items are pixels and owned by the game makers. When the game goes the items go and everyone is busy trying to predict the demise of SWG. Given the fact that SWG is shutting down like every other week if you read these boards and the virtual items are not owned by the individual in any way shape or form and willl go poof the day the servers shut down one would have to be slightly retarded to spend this money on any single virtual item. So say what you will if you can't afford to loose it dont use the money no matter what happens you will never ever get it back so consider it gone good loot or not its gone forever.
You said people buying cards for loot was not SOE's intention in the first place. Hozloff disagreed with you and showed you why. His view that people buying cards for loot is the only intention SOE had...and pretty much proved his point. Do you still think that? Just wondering cause your reply was about something totally different. Why start a debate with someone in the first place if your gonna ignore what people are saying?
He may be debating, but I run by skim a thread comment on what I feel like and leave. As for "starting a debate" I quoted no one here he quoted me. He replied and ran by my computer again put in another 2 cents and left. I'm not debating and I never debate I throw in my two cents and agree or disagree as I see fit and leave. Whatever he is doing he can do and I"m not stopping him, but please excuse me if i dont take these issues serious enough to discuss them the way you want me too. Here is a newslflash I dont spend much time thinking about these threads I just post and leave. Apologies for not taking it as seriously as you are and "debating properly'. I simply dont care enough to bother
I'm also not "defending anything" I have seen no one of any authority prove that tcg's are gambling. I'm going by my power of reasoning and what I know. No one here has anymore to go on or any more authority to say something is gambling then I do to say its not. Both are opinions and until we know otherwise neither is either false or true. They are just statements made by laymen on a discussion board and that is all they are
Whether or not RMT for a chance at TCG loot is gambling has been discussed in great detail in another thread. Specifically a new piece of U.S. legislation that specifies what kind of games of chance are legal within MMOs was cited. Aside from getting an Attorney General to pop in here during his or her free time (which usually doesn't exist by the way), that's probably as good as it's going to get.
Legalities aside though, I would like to hear what you think of a few things:
Do you really think it's player-friendly to have people pay real cash for new items, when these items used to be crafted and only available for ingame (fake) currency?
Do you think it's player-friendly to encourage people to risk real money hoping to win this loot by purchasing trading cards? Notice I didn't use the "g" word. It's not necessary. The concept is clear no matter what you call it.
If people spend real money hoping to get a virtual item, and they win, do you really think it's player-friendly to make plans to devalue those items?
And I thought I heard that some state agencies (I know I heard Texas thrown out in regards to this) were looking into whether SOE didn't violate some gambling laws by not listings odds of 'winning' certain cards.
The AGs' offices of consumer affairs (or the like) from Maryland, VA, and WVA have all communicated with me that they are looking into the TCG for SWG and for some other of SOE's titles, because of possible violations of different state gaming laws. Specifically two of them had a beef with the fact that it "gambling-like" in some respects AND that it was clearly aimed at those under 18. I had phone and email exchanges from 2 sets of investigators, but no follow up from WVA since the initial email. The AG office from DE didn't respond.
I am sure there are others out there that are doing the same....
Here's an interesting read for anyone curious about gambling in MMOs:
Also, legislators in the UK were working on a Bill that would require MMO companies to register with the Gambling Commission, if (and only if) their MMO includes games of chance where real money is at stake. Good idea if you ask me.
Further, as of Feb 2009 (yes that's now), the Federal Trade Commission is considering how it might begin to regulate EULAs. This will affect MMOs. Why are they looking at this? Because they get so many complaints from consumers that have paid for a service and got nothing, or paid for one service and got something else altogether. The MMO companies defence? The EULA. FTC's current perspective on this? Not cool.
My opinion? The flagrant disregard some MMO companies have shown their customers, and their use of EULAs to justify this, has been begging for this level of intervention for some time now. If these measures go through, we are all much more likely to get a quality service, to get the service we paid for, and to not have our money gouged via manipulative business models and unregulated games of chance.
If anyone has felt scammed by an MMO company by misleading marketting, by an unregulated game of chance etc., now is the time to let the FTC know. They are listening and responding right now:
Moral of the story stop buying playing cards for the free toys that are randomly inserted as that was not the intention in the first place. /shrug
riiiiight....
perhaps that is why on every tcg promotional email and web site the "toys" are advertised as follows at the center of the page:
Squadrons over Corellia
The Best Loot Yet:
Squadrons Over Corellia features more than 20 loot cards that are redeemable* in the Star Wars Galaxies MMO for fantastic virtual items. And since this release includes the starship mechanic, the hottest piece of loot just might be the all-new V-wing Starfighter!
Bounty Hunters
Discover over 20 new highly desirable loot items including the Armored Bantha Mount, the Zam Wesell Airspeeder, plus the first ever loot collection reward, the Merr-Sonn JT-12 jetpack!
I'm sorry but its up to the invidivual. I have been playing this game since before their TCG has been implmented. I play it now and I have no need or want of the diner or the speeder or whatever else they introduce. I am a bh and I only play BH. I am actually considered a very good BH and used as a source of information on how to make the class work. I dont have or use a jetpack of any kind and dont want one not with the way the move (Like a car along the ground in a strange horrizontal way due to the lack of the third axis. ) None of these items will make me a more effecitve BH. I prefer to have a ranchor mount which is an ingame BM mutation and use the stap speeder advanced and the bark from the GCW rewards and I have an AT-ST that I picked up for 2 mil from someone who didn't want it. You would not catch me dead using a jetpack as a bh...
As for the actual items. Anyone who CHOOSES to pay hundreds of dollars for a good loot card pull in SWG or WoW or any other game with a TCG has to have their head examined. The items are pixels and owned by the game makers. When the game goes the items go and everyone is busy trying to predict the demise of SWG. Given the fact that SWG is shutting down like every other week if you read these boards and the virtual items are not owned by the individual in any way shape or form and willl go poof the day the servers shut down one would have to be slightly retarded to spend this money on any single virtual item. So say what you will if you can't afford to loose it dont use the money no matter what happens you will never ever get it back so consider it gone good loot or not its gone forever.
You said people buying cards for loot was not SOE's intention in the first place. Hozloff disagreed with you and showed you why. His view that people buying cards for loot is the only intention SOE had...and pretty much proved his point. Do you still think that? Just wondering cause your reply was about something totally different. Why start a debate with someone in the first place if your gonna ignore what people are saying?
He may be debating, but I run by skim a thread comment on what I feel like and leave. As for "starting a debate" I quoted no one here he quoted me. He replied and ran by my computer again put in another 2 cents and left. I'm not debating and I never debate I throw in my two cents and agree or disagree as I see fit and leave. Whatever he is doing he can do and I"m not stopping him, but please excuse me if i dont take these issues serious enough to discuss them the way you want me too. Here is a newslflash I dont spend much time thinking about these threads I just post and leave. Apologies for not taking it as seriously as you are and "debating properly'. I simply dont care enough to bother
I'm also not "defending anything" I have seen no one of any authority prove that tcg's are gambling. I'm going by my power of reasoning and what I know. No one here has anymore to go on or any more authority to say something is gambling then I do to say its not. Both are opinions and until we know otherwise neither is either false or true. They are just statements made by laymen on a discussion board and that is all they are
Smedley has admitted that the card game was introduced so they could get into the micro transaction market. How is that authority enough for you?
Do you get a virtual item with each micro transaction? If you don't then that is in effect gambling as it relates to smedleys intentions. I'm not saying it is gambling to the degree of state/federal law violations, but still the same effect. You pay money for the chance to get something.
Not that any of this legal debate really matters when you look at the intent and purpose of the card games. It is undeniable that the goal was to get people to pay money for in game items. It is undeniable that these types of items were once the sole domain of players actions in the game and given as part of the subscription fee content updates or expansions.
Plain and simple soe is double dipping money from players for less content. Yet people continue to drink the cool aid and defend these vultures. It really boils down to a stupidity tax on subscribers.
Yes I know why they introduced the card game
people are talking about the loot included in the game as loot cards which are extras. Yes like any added item like say "tim hortons roll up the rim to win" there is a chance of getting a free something (donut or whatever) if you buy a cup of coffee as an extra and its used as an advertising hook, but tell me when you go to tim hortons to buy a cup of coffee are you buying it for the coffee in the cup or the possibility of a free plane trip to paris or a free whatever? Do you buy one coffee or 200 bucks worth of coffee in hopes you might get that "free loot". If you go buy 200 cups of coffee your kinda having issues, but if you went to tim hortons to buy a cup of coffee like you usually do and win a get a little something on the side that's great. However when Tim Hortons does it its probably okay with everyone here, but when Sony does it its not okay yet its the same principle applied. So this has nothing to do with the card game this has to do with those people saying that advertising the added loots extras you might get if you buy a deck of cards is "evil". I just hope no one buys tim hortons coffee here during those free promotions, or cracker jacks or fruit loops or anything else with a prize that may or may not be present.
Moral of the story stop buying playing cards for the free toys that are randomly inserted as that was not the intention in the first place. /shrug
riiiiight....
perhaps that is why on every tcg promotional email and web site the "toys" are advertised as follows at the center of the page:
Squadrons over Corellia
The Best Loot Yet:
Squadrons Over Corellia features more than 20 loot cards that are redeemable* in the Star Wars Galaxies MMO for fantastic virtual items. And since this release includes the starship mechanic, the hottest piece of loot just might be the all-new V-wing Starfighter!
Bounty Hunters
Discover over 20 new highly desirable loot items including the Armored Bantha Mount, the Zam Wesell Airspeeder, plus the first ever loot collection reward, the Merr-Sonn JT-12 jetpack!
I'm sorry but its up to the invidivual. I have been playing this game since before their TCG has been implmented. I play it now and I have no need or want of the diner or the speeder or whatever else they introduce. I am a bh and I only play BH. I am actually considered a very good BH and used as a source of information on how to make the class work. I dont have or use a jetpack of any kind and dont want one not with the way the move (Like a car along the ground in a strange horrizontal way due to the lack of the third axis. ) None of these items will make me a more effecitve BH. I prefer to have a ranchor mount which is an ingame BM mutation and use the stap speeder advanced and the bark from the GCW rewards and I have an AT-ST that I picked up for 2 mil from someone who didn't want it. You would not catch me dead using a jetpack as a bh...
As for the actual items. Anyone who CHOOSES to pay hundreds of dollars for a good loot card pull in SWG or WoW or any other game with a TCG has to have their head examined. The items are pixels and owned by the game makers. When the game goes the items go and everyone is busy trying to predict the demise of SWG. Given the fact that SWG is shutting down like every other week if you read these boards and the virtual items are not owned by the individual in any way shape or form and willl go poof the day the servers shut down one would have to be slightly retarded to spend this money on any single virtual item. So say what you will if you can't afford to loose it dont use the money no matter what happens you will never ever get it back so consider it gone good loot or not its gone forever.
You said people buying cards for loot was not SOE's intention in the first place. Hozloff disagreed with you and showed you why. His view that people buying cards for loot is the only intention SOE had...and pretty much proved his point. Do you still think that? Just wondering cause your reply was about something totally different. Why start a debate with someone in the first place if your gonna ignore what people are saying?
He may be debating, but I run by skim a thread comment on what I feel like and leave. As for "starting a debate" I quoted no one here he quoted me. He replied and ran by my computer again put in another 2 cents and left. I'm not debating and I never debate I throw in my two cents and agree or disagree as I see fit and leave. Whatever he is doing he can do and I"m not stopping him, but please excuse me if i dont take these issues serious enough to discuss them the way you want me too. Here is a newslflash I dont spend much time thinking about these threads I just post and leave. Apologies for not taking it as seriously as you are and "debating properly'. I simply dont care enough to bother
I'm also not "defending anything" I have seen no one of any authority prove that tcg's are gambling. I'm going by my power of reasoning and what I know. No one here has anymore to go on or any more authority to say something is gambling then I do to say its not. Both are opinions and until we know otherwise neither is either false or true. They are just statements made by laymen on a discussion board and that is all they are
Smedley has admitted that the card game was introduced so they could get into the micro transaction market. How is that authority enough for you?
Do you get a virtual item with each micro transaction? If you don't then that is in effect gambling as it relates to smedleys intentions. I'm not saying it is gambling to the degree of state/federal law violations, but still the same effect. You pay money for the chance to get something.
Not that any of this legal debate really matters when you look at the intent and purpose of the card games. It is undeniable that the goal was to get people to pay money for in game items. It is undeniable that these types of items were once the sole domain of players actions in the game and given as part of the subscription fee content updates or expansions.
Plain and simple soe is double dipping money from players for less content. Yet people continue to drink the cool aid and defend these vultures. It really boils down to a stupidity tax on subscribers.
Yes I know why they introduced the card game
people are talking about the loot included in the game as loot cards which are extras. Yes like any added item like say "tim hortons roll up the rim to win" there is a chance of getting a free something (donut or whatever) if you buy a cup of coffee as an extra and its used as an advertising hook, but tell me when you go to tim hortons to buy a cup of coffee are you buying it for the coffee in the cup or the possibility of a free plane trip to paris or a free whatever? Do you buy one coffee or 200 bucks worth of coffee in hopes you might get that "free loot". If you go buy 200 cups of coffee your kinda having issues, but if you went to tim hortons to buy a cup of coffee like you usually do and win a get a little something on the side that's great. However when Tim Hortons does it its probably okay with everyone here, but when Sony does it its not okay yet its the same principle applied. So this has nothing to do with the card game this has to do with those people saying that advertising the added loots extras you might get if you buy a deck of cards is "evil". I just hope no one buys tim hortons coffee here during those free promotions, or cracker jacks or fruit loops or anything else with a prize that may or may not be present.
The difference is that Tim Horton must publish the chances of winning. Same with the froot loops. If Kelloggs says you have a chance to win a xbox360 in the box they must publish the odds as well.
Yes I know why they introduced the card game people are talking about the loot included in the game as loot cards which are extras. Yes like any added item like say "tim hortons roll up the rim to win" there is a chance of getting a free something (donut or whatever) if you buy a cup of coffee as an extra and its used as an advertising hook, but tell me when you go to tim hortons to buy a cup of coffee are you buying it for the coffee in the cup or the possibility of a free plane trip to paris or a free whatever? Do you buy one coffee or 200 bucks worth of coffee in hopes you might get that "free loot". If you go buy 200 cups of coffee your kinda having issues, but if you went to tim hortons to buy a cup of coffee like you usually do and win a get a little something on the side that's great. However when Tim Hortons does it its probably okay with everyone here, but when Sony does it its not okay yet its the same principle applied. So this has nothing to do with the card game this has to do with those people saying that advertising the added loots extras you might get if you buy a deck of cards is "evil". I just hope no one buys tim hortons coffee here during those free promotions, or cracker jacks or fruit loops or anything else with a prize that may or may not be present.
The difference is that Tim Horton must publish the chances of winning. Same with the froot loops. If Kelloggs says you have a chance to win a xbox360 in the box they must publish the odds as well.
I believe ArcAngel also pointed out that there is a no-purchase required to win part of the Tim Horton's promo. In other words you don't have to be "subscribed" to Tim Horton's to win.
Yes I know why they introduced the card game people are talking about the loot included in the game as loot cards which are extras. Yes like any added item like say "tim hortons roll up the rim to win" there is a chance of getting a free something (donut or whatever) if you buy a cup of coffee as an extra and its used as an advertising hook, but tell me when you go to tim hortons to buy a cup of coffee are you buying it for the coffee in the cup or the possibility of a free plane trip to paris or a free whatever? Do you buy one coffee or 200 bucks worth of coffee in hopes you might get that "free loot". If you go buy 200 cups of coffee your kinda having issues, but if you went to tim hortons to buy a cup of coffee like you usually do and win a get a little something on the side that's great. However when Tim Hortons does it its probably okay with everyone here, but when Sony does it its not okay yet its the same principle applied. So this has nothing to do with the card game this has to do with those people saying that advertising the added loots extras you might get if you buy a deck of cards is "evil". I just hope no one buys tim hortons coffee here during those free promotions, or cracker jacks or fruit loops or anything else with a prize that may or may not be present.
The difference is that Tim Horton must publish the chances of winning. Same with the froot loops. If Kelloggs says you have a chance to win a xbox360 in the box they must publish the odds as well.
I believe ArcAngel also pointed out that there is a no-purchase required to win part of the Tim Horton's promo. In other words you don't have to be "subscribed" to Tim Horton's to win.
Arc is correct...it is part of the law that governs sweepstakes.
Originally posted by ummax Yes I know why they introduced the card game people are talking about the loot included in the game as loot cards which are extras. Yes like any added item like say "tim hortons roll up the rim to win" there is a chance of getting a free something (donut or whatever) if you buy a cup of coffee as an extra and its used as an advertising hook, but tell me when you go to tim hortons to buy a cup of coffee are you buying it for the coffee in the cup or the possibility of a free plane trip to paris or a free whatever? Do you buy one coffee or 200 bucks worth of coffee in hopes you might get that "free loot". If you go buy 200 cups of coffee your kinda having issues, but if you went to tim hortons to buy a cup of coffee like you usually do and win a get a little something on the side that's great. However when Tim Hortons does it its probably okay with everyone here, but when Sony does it its not okay yet its the same principle applied. So this has nothing to do with the card game this has to do with those people saying that advertising the added loots extras you might get if you buy a deck of cards is "evil". I just hope no one buys tim hortons coffee here during those free promotions, or cracker jacks or fruit loops or anything else with a prize that may or may not be present.
First of all your analogy is terrible and possibly one of the worst choices I have ever seen here.
To start with, the tim hortons roll up the cup game is in fact goverened by state and federal gambling laws. It is a game of chance and regulated in areas like chances to win, no purchase necessary, etc. For someone whos stance is that swg card game isn't gamling you sure picked a terrible analogy to hide behind.
Second, people buy tim hortons coffee without the game of chance. They are interested in the coffee. We both know that is not the case with swg card game. The card game would fail on its own merit and second the 'loot cards' were something the players were already getting for free with their subscription. The card game exists only as a vehicle to deliver the loot cards and is randomized to maximize profits at the expense of players having to "gamble" on the chance to get an item.
You cannot compare it to buying a cup of coffee. They do not even remotely share the same similarities and honestly illustrates just how out of touch you are on this issue. Then you have the nerve to start making smart assed comments about evil this or that as if you actually have solid ground to stand on from this half witted analogy?
Whats funny is that you really thought you hit a homerun with this comparison.
Originally posted by ummax Yes I know why they introduced the card game people are talking about the loot included in the game as loot cards which are extras. Yes like any added item like say "tim hortons roll up the rim to win" there is a chance of getting a free something (donut or whatever) if you buy a cup of coffee as an extra and its used as an advertising hook, but tell me when you go to tim hortons to buy a cup of coffee are you buying it for the coffee in the cup or the possibility of a free plane trip to paris or a free whatever? Do you buy one coffee or 200 bucks worth of coffee in hopes you might get that "free loot". If you go buy 200 cups of coffee your kinda having issues, but if you went to tim hortons to buy a cup of coffee like you usually do and win a get a little something on the side that's great. However when Tim Hortons does it its probably okay with everyone here, but when Sony does it its not okay yet its the same principle applied. So this has nothing to do with the card game this has to do with those people saying that advertising the added loots extras you might get if you buy a deck of cards is "evil". I just hope no one buys tim hortons coffee here during those free promotions, or cracker jacks or fruit loops or anything else with a prize that may or may not be present.
First of all your analogy is terrible and possibly one of the worst choices I have ever seen here.
To start with, the tim hortons roll up the cup game is in fact goverened by state and federal gambling laws. It is a game of chance and regulated in areas like chances to win, no purchase necessary, etc. For someone whos stance is that swg card game isn't gamling you sure picked a terrible analogy to hide behind.
Second, people buy tim hortons coffee without the game of chance. They are interested in the coffee. We both know that is not the case with swg card game. The card game would fail on its own merit and second the 'loot cards' were something the players were already getting for free with their subscription. The card game exists only as a vehicle to deliver the loot cards and is randomized to maximize profits at the expense of players having to "gamble" on the chance to get an item.
You cannot compare it to buying a cup of coffee. They do not even remotely share the same similarities and honestly illustrates just how out of touch you are on this issue. Then you have the nerve to start making smart assed comments about evil this or that as if you actually have solid ground to stand on from this half witted analogy?
Whats funny is that you really thought you hit a homerun with this comparison.
Good summary. Details regarding sweepstakes promotionals like this have already been covered in another thread. The main differences (official links have been posted) between these and the TCG are: no purchase necessary--of any kind--and published odds of winning.
So to enlighten the as yet uninformed, that means you don't have to buy a coffee to participate in the Tim Horton's sweepstakes; you can enter by mail. Google away if you want confirmation, this is clearly spelled out on the site.
Why do they do it this way? It's the law. Why is it the law? So that unethical companies don't hook people into a gambling scenario outside of their awareness and milk them for all they've got.
Here's an interesting read for anyone curious about gambling in MMOs: http://webpages.acs.ttu.edu/mmetheni/Internet%20Gambling%20and%20the%20MMORPG.htm Also, legislators in the UK were working on a Bill that would require MMO companies to register with the Gambling Commission, if (and only if) their MMO includes games of chance where real money is at stake. Good idea if you ask me. Further, as of Feb 2009 (yes that's now), the Federal Trade Commission is considering how it might begin to regulate EULAs. This will affect MMOs. Why are they looking at this? Because they get so many complaints from consumers that have paid for a service and got nothing, or paid for one service and got something else altogether. The MMO companies defence? The EULA. FTC's current perspective on this? Not cool. My opinion? The flagrant disregard some MMO companies have shown their customers, and their use of EULAs to justify this, has been begging for this level of intervention for some time now. If these measures go through, we are all much more likely to get a quality service, to get the service we paid for, and to not have our money gouged via manipulative business models and unregulated games of chance. If anyone has felt scammed by an MMO company by misleading marketting, by an unregulated game of chance etc., now is the time to let the FTC know. They are listening and responding right now: Here's the link: https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/ Players can and do make a difference when they speak up. Happy gaming ^_^.
In some ways, this is unfortunate. I don't think gamers really want gov'mint involved, but since companies cannot seem to keep a lid on their greed, it becomes inevitable. If the MMO companies would simply wake up and establish consistent service policies and self-policing, they might be able to head off gov'mint action.
Originally posted by ummax Yes I know why they introduced the card game people are talking about the loot included in the game as loot cards which are extras. Yes like any added item like say "tim hortons roll up the rim to win" there is a chance of getting a free something (donut or whatever) if you buy a cup of coffee as an extra and its used as an advertising hook, but tell me when you go to tim hortons to buy a cup of coffee are you buying it for the coffee in the cup or the possibility of a free plane trip to paris or a free whatever? Do you buy one coffee or 200 bucks worth of coffee in hopes you might get that "free loot". If you go buy 200 cups of coffee your kinda having issues, but if you went to tim hortons to buy a cup of coffee like you usually do and win a get a little something on the side that's great. However when Tim Hortons does it its probably okay with everyone here, but when Sony does it its not okay yet its the same principle applied. So this has nothing to do with the card game this has to do with those people saying that advertising the added loots extras you might get if you buy a deck of cards is "evil". I just hope no one buys tim hortons coffee here during those free promotions, or cracker jacks or fruit loops or anything else with a prize that may or may not be present.
First of all your analogy is terrible and possibly one of the worst choices I have ever seen here.
To start with, the tim hortons roll up the cup game is in fact goverened by state and federal gambling laws. It is a game of chance and regulated in areas like chances to win, no purchase necessary, etc. For someone whos stance is that swg card game isn't gamling you sure picked a terrible analogy to hide behind.
Second, people buy tim hortons coffee without the game of chance. They are interested in the coffee. We both know that is not the case with swg card game. The card game would fail on its own merit and second the 'loot cards' were something the players were already getting for free with their subscription. The card game exists only as a vehicle to deliver the loot cards and is randomized to maximize profits at the expense of players having to "gamble" on the chance to get an item.
You cannot compare it to buying a cup of coffee. They do not even remotely share the same similarities and honestly illustrates just how out of touch you are on this issue. Then you have the nerve to start making smart assed comments about evil this or that as if you actually have solid ground to stand on from this half witted analogy?
Whats funny is that you really thought you hit a homerun with this comparison.
Did are or are people making more assumptions?
lets make it more simple shall we?
do you condemn tim hortons for putting free donuts offers on the rims of their cups? No says you?
why do you condemn sony for putting free paintings or diners in their card games? (here i will put words in your mouth for you this time.. cause you hate sony ... )
As an aside the last time I actually went and asked for a cup from these guys cause I was thirsty and didn't want the coffee just a glass of water they made me pay for the cup. Are they any more or less greedy then sony ? The answer is no. Are they actualyl breaking the law? well I would say no but the "jury is out on that and that jury is not found on this website. If in fact they are found to be breaking the law as I said previously on this all that will happen is that they will be asked to rework some of their legal stuff put some more fine print on the bottom of their already long elua's and terms of service that absolutely no one will read and they will be fine. Now sony is a very large machine and they have an entire herd of lawyers its possible they had a brain fart when they assembled this stuff, but I find that hard to believe. If this is so though not only sony is going to be dealt with any other company that offers anything remotely similar to this will be dealt with as well and that includes blizzard. (and I do know that a great many people here prefer to give their money to blizzard even though they do the same things to their customers that sony does..) Are you prepared for the consequences of your actions? I know I'm very interested to see what people will say when and if they succeed in making a case for no other reason then they have waaaay to much time on their hands. I think it will be more then a little bit interested to see what people will do next and I for one can't wait to see the next chapter of this crusade that people are on. Especialy in light of the fact that a great many people here scream about freedom on this board at the top of their lungs and want like no one to control them. Its ironic really I have been in a situation where the government came down hard on a company for actual unregulated gambling inside a game and I live in a counry where free speech is in fact not legal or a civil right. I think though when it does happen and people's card games are ruined for them. I will as usual be sitting here and wondering what all the fuss is about (yet again) cause in essence as in previous cases where things changed the ones asking for and lobbying for the change screamed the loudest when it did occur. Which is always entertainingt to watch and people like myself can do some more rubbernecking as we watch yet another train reck brought upon themselves
(edited after finishing my cup of coffee)
I have to say I am watching as usual as the SWG forum moves once again from sublime to ridiculous. I will hazard a guess a small guess here that the bulk of people lobbying for change are not really thinking about what will happen when that changes does occur. Its a safe bet though that what you really want to happen wont be happening. Sony will still exist, John Smedly will still have his job and life will carry on in the industry for those people as they obey more rules and regulations. They will still make money and lots of it and SWG, EQ and all the new games not yet created will still be made. The only thing that will change here is that more people will be screaming (probably the same ones) about something else brought on by people who seek to lobby for change motivated by nothing more then dislike of a single company. When you think about it for a few minutes its actually kinda funny. I do hope you succeed I mean that sincerely. I want to see what happens next. I myself prefer to stay out of it and just play the games and ignore the rmt parts.
I see you are still trying to bend some stupid coffee analogy around the RMT issue as if they are identical and suitable comparisons. Please stop, they don't and it doesn't make your arguements any more compelling. I think I did a fine job pointing out just how incorrect you made yourself look already.
All you are doing is obfuscating the real details by trying to associate the card game with some other issue and then jumping to several absurd conclusions to elicite an emotional response. Again, stop. You can't just pick any other aspects of life and try to make compelling discussion by picking and choosing small aspects of each, ignoring all the differences and pretending they are the same thing. It doesn't work like that.
For the record, I am not of the mindset that this breaks any gambling laws, but it may. I don't know. However it doesn't matter how many lawyers sony has. That hasn't stopped them from getting their butts handed to them in several fraud cases in the past and I doubt any number of lawyers could avoid a loss if uncle sam suspects for one second they are missing out on gambling tax revenue. I don't care who they have.
I agree, soe will carry on and smedley will still have his job. Nothing will change. Soe will continue marching straight down the path they have been for years and every game decision will under go the company theme of "how can we get our players to spend more money on what we are already giving them". So feel free to sit back with that smug little perk that nothing will change as if it is somehow a good thing,because they people who it affects most are just to apathetic to do anything about it. /golfclap.
Originally posted by ummax Yes I know why they introduced the card game people are talking about the loot included in the game as loot cards which are extras. Yes like any added item like say "tim hortons roll up the rim to win" there is a chance of getting a free something (donut or whatever) if you buy a cup of coffee as an extra and its used as an advertising hook, but tell me when you go to tim hortons to buy a cup of coffee are you buying it for the coffee in the cup or the possibility of a free plane trip to paris or a free whatever? Do you buy one coffee or 200 bucks worth of coffee in hopes you might get that "free loot". If you go buy 200 cups of coffee your kinda having issues, but if you went to tim hortons to buy a cup of coffee like you usually do and win a get a little something on the side that's great. However when Tim Hortons does it its probably okay with everyone here, but when Sony does it its not okay yet its the same principle applied. So this has nothing to do with the card game this has to do with those people saying that advertising the added loots extras you might get if you buy a deck of cards is "evil". I just hope no one buys tim hortons coffee here during those free promotions, or cracker jacks or fruit loops or anything else with a prize that may or may not be present.
First of all your analogy is terrible and possibly one of the worst choices I have ever seen here.
To start with, the tim hortons roll up the cup game is in fact goverened by state and federal gambling laws. It is a game of chance and regulated in areas like chances to win, no purchase necessary, etc. For someone whos stance is that swg card game isn't gamling you sure picked a terrible analogy to hide behind.
Second, people buy tim hortons coffee without the game of chance. They are interested in the coffee. We both know that is not the case with swg card game. The card game would fail on its own merit and second the 'loot cards' were something the players were already getting for free with their subscription. The card game exists only as a vehicle to deliver the loot cards and is randomized to maximize profits at the expense of players having to "gamble" on the chance to get an item.
You cannot compare it to buying a cup of coffee. They do not even remotely share the same similarities and honestly illustrates just how out of touch you are on this issue. Then you have the nerve to start making smart assed comments about evil this or that as if you actually have solid ground to stand on from this half witted analogy?
Whats funny is that you really thought you hit a homerun with this comparison.
Did are or are people making more assumptions?
lets make it more simple shall we?
do you condemn tim hortons for putting free donuts offers on the rims of their cups? No says you?
why do you condemn sony for putting free paintings or diners in their card games? (here i will put words in your mouth for you this time.. cause you hate sony ... )
As an aside the last time I actually went and asked for a cup from these guys cause I was thirsty and didn't want the coffee just a glass of water they made me pay for the cup. Are they any more or less greedy then sony ? The answer is no. Are they actualyl breaking the law? well I would say no but the "jury is out on that and that jury is not found on this website. If in fact they are found to be breaking the law as I said previously on this all that will happen is that they will be asked to rework some of their legal stuff put some more fine print on the bottom of their already long elua's and terms of service that absolutely no one will read and they will be fine. Now sony is a very large machine and they have an entire herd of lawyers its possible they had a brain fart when they assembled this stuff, but I find that hard to believe. If this is so though not only sony is going to be dealt with any other company that offers anything remotely similar to this will be dealt with as well and that includes blizzard. (and I do know that a great many people here prefer to give their money to blizzard even though they do the same things to their customers that sony does..) Are you prepared for the consequences of your actions? I know I'm very interested to see what people will say when and if they succeed in making a case for no other reason then they have waaaay to much time on their hands. I think it will be more then a little bit interested to see what people will do next and I for one can't wait to see the next chapter of this crusade that people are on. Especialy in light of the fact that a great many people here scream about freedom on this board at the top of their lungs and want like no one to control them. Its ironic really I have been in a situation where the government came down hard on a company for actual unregulated gambling inside a game and I live in a counry where free speech is in fact not legal or a civil right. I think though when it does happen and people's card games are ruined for them. I will as usual be sitting here and wondering what all the fuss is about (yet again) cause in essence as in previous cases where things changed the ones asking for and lobbying for the change screamed the loudest when it did occur. Which is always entertainingt to watch and people like myself can do some more rubbernecking as we watch yet another train reck brought upon themselves
(edited after finishing my cup of coffee)
I have to say I am watching as usual as the SWG forum moves once again from sublime to ridiculous. I will hazard a guess a small guess here that the bulk of people lobbying for change are not really thinking about what will happen when that changes does occur. Its a safe bet though that what you really want to happen wont be happening. Sony will still exist, John Smedly will still have his job and life will carry on in the industry for those people as they obey more rules and regulations. They will still make money and lots of it and SWG, EQ and all the new games not yet created will still be made. The only thing that will change here is that more people will be screaming (probably the same ones) about something else brought on by people who seek to lobby for change motivated by nothing more then dislike of a single company. When you think about it for a few minutes its actually kinda funny. I do hope you succeed I mean that sincerely. I want to see what happens next. I myself prefer to stay out of it and just play the games and ignore the rmt parts.
Your analogies are poorly argued and your diatribe is long for saying absolutely nothing at all. But then again you do not engage in debate on forums do you.
Originally posted by ummax Yes I know why they introduced the card game people are talking about the loot included in the game as loot cards which are extras. Yes like any added item like say "tim hortons roll up the rim to win" there is a chance of getting a free something (donut or whatever) if you buy a cup of coffee as an extra and its used as an advertising hook, but tell me when you go to tim hortons to buy a cup of coffee are you buying it for the coffee in the cup or the possibility of a free plane trip to paris or a free whatever? Do you buy one coffee or 200 bucks worth of coffee in hopes you might get that "free loot". If you go buy 200 cups of coffee your kinda having issues, but if you went to tim hortons to buy a cup of coffee like you usually do and win a get a little something on the side that's great. However when Tim Hortons does it its probably okay with everyone here, but when Sony does it its not okay yet its the same principle applied. So this has nothing to do with the card game this has to do with those people saying that advertising the added loots extras you might get if you buy a deck of cards is "evil". I just hope no one buys tim hortons coffee here during those free promotions, or cracker jacks or fruit loops or anything else with a prize that may or may not be present.
First of all your analogy is terrible and possibly one of the worst choices I have ever seen here.
To start with, the tim hortons roll up the cup game is in fact goverened by state and federal gambling laws. It is a game of chance and regulated in areas like chances to win, no purchase necessary, etc. For someone whos stance is that swg card game isn't gamling you sure picked a terrible analogy to hide behind.
Second, people buy tim hortons coffee without the game of chance. They are interested in the coffee. We both know that is not the case with swg card game. The card game would fail on its own merit and second the 'loot cards' were something the players were already getting for free with their subscription. The card game exists only as a vehicle to deliver the loot cards and is randomized to maximize profits at the expense of players having to "gamble" on the chance to get an item.
You cannot compare it to buying a cup of coffee. They do not even remotely share the same similarities and honestly illustrates just how out of touch you are on this issue. Then you have the nerve to start making smart assed comments about evil this or that as if you actually have solid ground to stand on from this half witted analogy?
Whats funny is that you really thought you hit a homerun with this comparison.
Did are or are people making more assumptions?
lets make it more simple shall we?
do you condemn tim hortons for putting free donuts offers on the rims of their cups? No says you?
why do you condemn sony for putting free paintings or diners in their card games? (here i will put words in your mouth for you this time.. cause you hate sony ... )
As an aside the last time I actually went and asked for a cup from these guys cause I was thirsty and didn't want the coffee just a glass of water they made me pay for the cup. Are they any more or less greedy then sony ? The answer is no. Are they actualyl breaking the law? well I would say no but the "jury is out on that and that jury is not found on this website. If in fact they are found to be breaking the law as I said previously on this all that will happen is that they will be asked to rework some of their legal stuff put some more fine print on the bottom of their already long elua's and terms of service that absolutely no one will read and they will be fine. Now sony is a very large machine and they have an entire herd of lawyers its possible they had a brain fart when they assembled this stuff, but I find that hard to believe. If this is so though not only sony is going to be dealt with any other company that offers anything remotely similar to this will be dealt with as well and that includes blizzard. (and I do know that a great many people here prefer to give their money to blizzard even though they do the same things to their customers that sony does..) Are you prepared for the consequences of your actions? I know I'm very interested to see what people will say when and if they succeed in making a case for no other reason then they have waaaay to much time on their hands. I think it will be more then a little bit interested to see what people will do next and I for one can't wait to see the next chapter of this crusade that people are on. Especialy in light of the fact that a great many people here scream about freedom on this board at the top of their lungs and want like no one to control them. Its ironic really I have been in a situation where the government came down hard on a company for actual unregulated gambling inside a game and I live in a counry where free speech is in fact not legal or a civil right. I think though when it does happen and people's card games are ruined for them. I will as usual be sitting here and wondering what all the fuss is about (yet again) cause in essence as in previous cases where things changed the ones asking for and lobbying for the change screamed the loudest when it did occur. Which is always entertainingt to watch and people like myself can do some more rubbernecking as we watch yet another train reck brought upon themselves
(edited after finishing my cup of coffee)
I have to say I am watching as usual as the SWG forum moves once again from sublime to ridiculous. I will hazard a guess a small guess here that the bulk of people lobbying for change are not really thinking about what will happen when that changes does occur. Its a safe bet though that what you really want to happen wont be happening. Sony will still exist, John Smedly will still have his job and life will carry on in the industry for those people as they obey more rules and regulations. They will still make money and lots of it and SWG, EQ and all the new games not yet created will still be made. The only thing that will change here is that more people will be screaming (probably the same ones) about something else brought on by people who seek to lobby for change motivated by nothing more then dislike of a single company. When you think about it for a few minutes its actually kinda funny. I do hope you succeed I mean that sincerely. I want to see what happens next. I myself prefer to stay out of it and just play the games and ignore the rmt parts.
Your analogies are poorly argued and your diatribe is long for saying absolutely nothing at all. But then again you do not engage in debate on forums do you.
Fortunately, MMORPG.com has provided us with the nice "Block" button, so there is a defense against the rambling and meaningless walls of text that seem to be all too common in here....
Originally posted by ummax Yes I know why they introduced the card game people are talking about the loot included in the game as loot cards which are extras. Yes like any added item like say "tim hortons roll up the rim to win" there is a chance of getting a free something (donut or whatever) if you buy a cup of coffee as an extra and its used as an advertising hook, but tell me when you go to tim hortons to buy a cup of coffee are you buying it for the coffee in the cup or the possibility of a free plane trip to paris or a free whatever? Do you buy one coffee or 200 bucks worth of coffee in hopes you might get that "free loot". If you go buy 200 cups of coffee your kinda having issues, but if you went to tim hortons to buy a cup of coffee like you usually do and win a get a little something on the side that's great. However when Tim Hortons does it its probably okay with everyone here, but when Sony does it its not okay yet its the same principle applied. So this has nothing to do with the card game this has to do with those people saying that advertising the added loots extras you might get if you buy a deck of cards is "evil". I just hope no one buys tim hortons coffee here during those free promotions, or cracker jacks or fruit loops or anything else with a prize that may or may not be present.
First of all your analogy is terrible and possibly one of the worst choices I have ever seen here.
To start with, the tim hortons roll up the cup game is in fact goverened by state and federal gambling laws. It is a game of chance and regulated in areas like chances to win, no purchase necessary, etc. For someone whos stance is that swg card game isn't gamling you sure picked a terrible analogy to hide behind.
Second, people buy tim hortons coffee without the game of chance. They are interested in the coffee. We both know that is not the case with swg card game. The card game would fail on its own merit and second the 'loot cards' were something the players were already getting for free with their subscription. The card game exists only as a vehicle to deliver the loot cards and is randomized to maximize profits at the expense of players having to "gamble" on the chance to get an item.
You cannot compare it to buying a cup of coffee. They do not even remotely share the same similarities and honestly illustrates just how out of touch you are on this issue. Then you have the nerve to start making smart assed comments about evil this or that as if you actually have solid ground to stand on from this half witted analogy?
Whats funny is that you really thought you hit a homerun with this comparison.
Did are or are people making more assumptions?
lets make it more simple shall we?
do you condemn tim hortons for putting free donuts offers on the rims of their cups? No says you?
why do you condemn sony for putting free paintings or diners in their card games? (here i will put words in your mouth for you this time.. cause you hate sony ... )
As an aside the last time I actually went and asked for a cup from these guys cause I was thirsty and didn't want the coffee just a glass of water they made me pay for the cup. Are they any more or less greedy then sony ? The answer is no. Are they actualyl breaking the law? well I would say no but the "jury is out on that and that jury is not found on this website. If in fact they are found to be breaking the law as I said previously on this all that will happen is that they will be asked to rework some of their legal stuff put some more fine print on the bottom of their already long elua's and terms of service that absolutely no one will read and they will be fine. Now sony is a very large machine and they have an entire herd of lawyers its possible they had a brain fart when they assembled this stuff, but I find that hard to believe. If this is so though not only sony is going to be dealt with any other company that offers anything remotely similar to this will be dealt with as well and that includes blizzard. (and I do know that a great many people here prefer to give their money to blizzard even though they do the same things to their customers that sony does..) Are you prepared for the consequences of your actions? I know I'm very interested to see what people will say when and if they succeed in making a case for no other reason then they have waaaay to much time on their hands. I think it will be more then a little bit interested to see what people will do next and I for one can't wait to see the next chapter of this crusade that people are on. Especialy in light of the fact that a great many people here scream about freedom on this board at the top of their lungs and want like no one to control them. Its ironic really I have been in a situation where the government came down hard on a company for actual unregulated gambling inside a game and I live in a counry where free speech is in fact not legal or a civil right. I think though when it does happen and people's card games are ruined for them. I will as usual be sitting here and wondering what all the fuss is about (yet again) cause in essence as in previous cases where things changed the ones asking for and lobbying for the change screamed the loudest when it did occur. Which is always entertainingt to watch and people like myself can do some more rubbernecking as we watch yet another train reck brought upon themselves
(edited after finishing my cup of coffee)
I have to say I am watching as usual as the SWG forum moves once again from sublime to ridiculous. I will hazard a guess a small guess here that the bulk of people lobbying for change are not really thinking about what will happen when that changes does occur. Its a safe bet though that what you really want to happen wont be happening. Sony will still exist, John Smedly will still have his job and life will carry on in the industry for those people as they obey more rules and regulations. They will still make money and lots of it and SWG, EQ and all the new games not yet created will still be made. The only thing that will change here is that more people will be screaming (probably the same ones) about something else brought on by people who seek to lobby for change motivated by nothing more then dislike of a single company. When you think about it for a few minutes its actually kinda funny. I do hope you succeed I mean that sincerely. I want to see what happens next. I myself prefer to stay out of it and just play the games and ignore the rmt parts.
Your analogies are poorly argued and your diatribe is long for saying absolutely nothing at all. But then again you do not engage in debate on forums do you.
Fortunately, MMORPG.com has provided us with the nice "Block" button, so there is a defense against the rambling and meaningless walls of text that seem to be all too common in here....
Awww sorry is my "debating' doing nothing for you. My bad I will use smaller words and shorter sentances next time. I forget that average audience on message boards tends to loose focus after the first phrase. Apologies for not meeting your posting needs or thinking ilke you. Thankfully I'm my own person, but when you run out of words to put on paper you must digress into personal crap again. So I will post that I have noticed you doing it again and hope that the thread goes back to an actual topic instead of "omg I dont understand ummax * again fumbles for dictionary and text books* for ways to turn the thread into a ummax thread.
Better work on a ummax stamp of approval for my posts. When someone digresses into this I really should have a stamp or something to post instead of words.
Awww sorry is my "debating' doing nothing for you. My bad I will use smaller words and shorter sentances next time. I forget that average audience on message boards tends to loose focus after the first phrase. Apologies for not meeting your posting needs or thinking ilke you. Thankfully I'm my own person, but when you run out of words to put on paper you must digress into personal crap again. So I will post that I have noticed you doing it again and hope that the thread goes back to an actual topic instead of "omg I dont understand ummax * again fumbles for dictionary and text books* for ways to turn the thread into a ummax thread. Better work on a ummax stamp of approval for my posts. When someone digresses into this I really should have a stamp or something to post instead of words.
"Tis better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt."
The problem is not that you are not understood...it is the fact what you post makes no factual sense and draws completely ludicrous conclusions...but please continue on with your non-debating form of debating. It is like watching a chicken with its head newly removed.
Awww sorry is my "debating' doing nothing for you. My bad I will use smaller words and shorter sentances next time. I forget that average audience on message boards tends to loose focus after the first phrase. Apologies for not meeting your posting needs or thinking ilke you. Thankfully I'm my own person, but when you run out of words to put on paper you must digress into personal crap again. So I will post that I have noticed you doing it again and hope that the thread goes back to an actual topic instead of "omg I dont understand ummax * again fumbles for dictionary and text books* for ways to turn the thread into a ummax thread. Better work on a ummax stamp of approval for my posts. When someone digresses into this I really should have a stamp or something to post instead of words.
Now you are going to say other people have degraded to insults as replacement for discussion?!?!?!?!?
Please reread what I just quoted from you to see just how hypocritical you are being... again. Now stop thinking about what you are going to rebut with and read it again. This time really read it and pay attention to the words you use, the insults, the lack of viewpoints or debate.
You have a serious case of pot and kettle, but I'm sure that will be resolved when you get another forum ban.
Awww sorry is my "debating' doing nothing for you. My bad I will use smaller words and shorter sentances next time. I forget that average audience on message boards tends to loose focus after the first phrase. Apologies for not meeting your posting needs or thinking ilke you. Thankfully I'm my own person, but when you run out of words to put on paper you must digress into personal crap again. So I will post that I have noticed you doing it again and hope that the thread goes back to an actual topic instead of "omg I dont understand ummax * again fumbles for dictionary and text books* for ways to turn the thread into a ummax thread. Better work on a ummax stamp of approval for my posts. When someone digresses into this I really should have a stamp or something to post instead of words.
Now you are going to say other people have degraded to insults as replacement for discussion?!?!?!?!?
Please reread what I just quoted from you to see just how hypocritical you are being... again. Now stop thinking about what you are going to rebut with and read it again. This time really read it and pay attention to the words you use, the insults, the lack of viewpoints or debate.
You have a serious case of pot and kettle, but I'm sure that will be resolved when you get another forum ban.
Well, you know, sometimes I think some folks just disagree for the sake of disagreeing. I also think some people will defend their psychological happy place (i.e. MMO of choice) at any cost to other players, and often at the expense of accurate information, but what can you do? I just make a mental note of who does and who doesn't appear interested in respectful dialogue, and who does and who doesn't seem interested in accurate information that may challenge their point of view. Some folks just don't want to hear anything that doesn't fit their current mental schema I think. C'est la vie.
Comments
Well, two of the core problems with this whole scam across all of the SOE titles are these:
1. People already pay the highest monthly fee of any game in the industry, already, before all of this pseudo RMT gambling thing happened. But that is not enough for the greedy Smed.
2. The game started and ran for years as monthly sub only and then, all of a sudden, new content that would otherwise have been done through crafters or others is suddenly in there as a function of RMT. Didn't start as RMT, but RMT came in and changed things a great deal, at the expense of already paying customers.
Were it an F2P asain grinder, neither of those would have been an issue.
riiiiight....
perhaps that is why on every tcg promotional email and web site the "toys" are advertised as follows at the center of the page:
Squadrons over Corellia
The Best Loot Yet:
Squadrons Over Corellia features more than 20 loot cards that are redeemable* in the Star Wars Galaxies MMO for fantastic virtual items. And since this release includes the starship mechanic, the hottest piece of loot just might be the all-new V-wing Starfighter!
Bounty Hunters
Discover over 20 new highly desirable loot items including the Armored Bantha Mount, the Zam Wesell Airspeeder, plus the first ever loot collection reward, the Merr-Sonn JT-12 jetpack!
I'm sorry but its up to the invidivual. I have been playing this game since before their TCG has been implmented. I play it now and I have no need or want of the diner or the speeder or whatever else they introduce. I am a bh and I only play BH. I am actually considered a very good BH and used as a source of information on how to make the class work. I dont have or use a jetpack of any kind and dont want one not with the way the move (Like a car along the ground in a strange horrizontal way due to the lack of the third axis. ) None of these items will make me a more effecitve BH. I prefer to have a ranchor mount which is an ingame BM mutation and use the stap speeder advanced and the bark from the GCW rewards and I have an AT-ST that I picked up for 2 mil from someone who didn't want it. You would not catch me dead using a jetpack as a bh...
As for the actual items. Anyone who CHOOSES to pay hundreds of dollars for a good loot card pull in SWG or WoW or any other game with a TCG has to have their head examined. The items are pixels and owned by the game makers. When the game goes the items go and everyone is busy trying to predict the demise of SWG. Given the fact that SWG is shutting down like every other week if you read these boards and the virtual items are not owned by the individual in any way shape or form and willl go poof the day the servers shut down one would have to be slightly retarded to spend this money on any single virtual item. So say what you will if you can't afford to loose it dont use the money no matter what happens you will never ever get it back so consider it gone good loot or not its gone forever.
You said people buying cards for loot was not SOE's intention in the first place. Hozloff disagreed with you and showed you why. His view that people buying cards for loot is the only intention SOE had...and pretty much proved his point. Do you still think that? Just wondering cause your reply was about something totally different. Why start a debate with someone in the first place if your gonna ignore what people are saying?
He may be debating, but I run by skim a thread comment on what I feel like and leave. As for "starting a debate" I quoted no one here he quoted me. He replied and ran by my computer again put in another 2 cents and left. I'm not debating and I never debate I throw in my two cents and agree or disagree as I see fit and leave. Whatever he is doing he can do and I"m not stopping him, but please excuse me if i dont take these issues serious enough to discuss them the way you want me too. Here is a newslflash I dont spend much time thinking about these threads I just post and leave. Apologies for not taking it as seriously as you are and "debating properly'. I simply dont care enough to bother
I'm also not "defending anything" I have seen no one of any authority prove that tcg's are gambling. I'm going by my power of reasoning and what I know. No one here has anymore to go on or any more authority to say something is gambling then I do to say its not. Both are opinions and until we know otherwise neither is either false or true. They are just statements made by laymen on a discussion board and that is all they are
riiiiight....
perhaps that is why on every tcg promotional email and web site the "toys" are advertised as follows at the center of the page:
Squadrons over Corellia
The Best Loot Yet:
Squadrons Over Corellia features more than 20 loot cards that are redeemable* in the Star Wars Galaxies MMO for fantastic virtual items. And since this release includes the starship mechanic, the hottest piece of loot just might be the all-new V-wing Starfighter!
Bounty Hunters
Discover over 20 new highly desirable loot items including the Armored Bantha Mount, the Zam Wesell Airspeeder, plus the first ever loot collection reward, the Merr-Sonn JT-12 jetpack!
I'm sorry but its up to the invidivual. I have been playing this game since before their TCG has been implmented. I play it now and I have no need or want of the diner or the speeder or whatever else they introduce. I am a bh and I only play BH. I am actually considered a very good BH and used as a source of information on how to make the class work. I dont have or use a jetpack of any kind and dont want one not with the way the move (Like a car along the ground in a strange horrizontal way due to the lack of the third axis. ) None of these items will make me a more effecitve BH. I prefer to have a ranchor mount which is an ingame BM mutation and use the stap speeder advanced and the bark from the GCW rewards and I have an AT-ST that I picked up for 2 mil from someone who didn't want it. You would not catch me dead using a jetpack as a bh...
As for the actual items. Anyone who CHOOSES to pay hundreds of dollars for a good loot card pull in SWG or WoW or any other game with a TCG has to have their head examined. The items are pixels and owned by the game makers. When the game goes the items go and everyone is busy trying to predict the demise of SWG. Given the fact that SWG is shutting down like every other week if you read these boards and the virtual items are not owned by the individual in any way shape or form and willl go poof the day the servers shut down one would have to be slightly retarded to spend this money on any single virtual item. So say what you will if you can't afford to loose it dont use the money no matter what happens you will never ever get it back so consider it gone good loot or not its gone forever.
You said people buying cards for loot was not SOE's intention in the first place. Hozloff disagreed with you and showed you why. His view that people buying cards for loot is the only intention SOE had...and pretty much proved his point. Do you still think that? Just wondering cause your reply was about something totally different. Why start a debate with someone in the first place if your gonna ignore what people are saying?
He may be debating, but I run by skim a thread comment on what I feel like and leave. As for "starting a debate" I quoted no one here he quoted me. He replied and ran by my computer again put in another 2 cents and left. I'm not debating and I never debate I throw in my two cents and agree or disagree as I see fit and leave. Whatever he is doing he can do and I"m not stopping him, but please excuse me if i dont take these issues serious enough to discuss them the way you want me too. Here is a newslflash I dont spend much time thinking about these threads I just post and leave. Apologies for not taking it as seriously as you are and "debating properly'. I simply dont care enough to bother
I'm also not "defending anything" I have seen no one of any authority prove that tcg's are gambling. I'm going by my power of reasoning and what I know. No one here has anymore to go on or any more authority to say something is gambling then I do to say its not. Both are opinions and until we know otherwise neither is either false or true. They are just statements made by laymen on a discussion board and that is all they are
Smedley has admitted that the card game was introduced so they could get into the micro transaction market. How is that authority enough for you?
Do you get a virtual item with each micro transaction? If you don't then that is in effect gambling as it relates to smedleys intentions. I'm not saying it is gambling to the degree of state/federal law violations, but still the same effect. You pay money for the chance to get something.
Not that any of this legal debate really matters when you look at the intent and purpose of the card games. It is undeniable that the goal was to get people to pay money for in game items. It is undeniable that these types of items were once the sole domain of players actions in the game and given as part of the subscription fee content updates or expansions.
Plain and simple soe is double dipping money from players for less content. Yet people continue to drink the cool aid and defend these vultures. It really boils down to a stupidity tax on subscribers.
And I thought I heard that some state agencies (I know I heard Texas thrown out in regards to this) were looking into whether SOE didn't violate some gambling laws by not listings odds of 'winning' certain cards.
The AGs' offices of consumer affairs (or the like) from Maryland, VA, and WVA have all communicated with me that they are looking into the TCG for SWG and for some other of SOE's titles, because of possible violations of different state gaming laws. Specifically two of them had a beef with the fact that it "gambling-like" in some respects AND that it was clearly aimed at those under 18. I had phone and email exchanges from 2 sets of investigators, but no follow up from WVA since the initial email. The AG office from DE didn't respond.
I am sure there are others out there that are doing the same....
Your actions speak otherwise.
--------
Ten Golden Rules Of Videogame Fanboyism
"SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor
riiiiight....
perhaps that is why on every tcg promotional email and web site the "toys" are advertised as follows at the center of the page:
Squadrons over Corellia
The Best Loot Yet:
Squadrons Over Corellia features more than 20 loot cards that are redeemable* in the Star Wars Galaxies MMO for fantastic virtual items. And since this release includes the starship mechanic, the hottest piece of loot just might be the all-new V-wing Starfighter!
Bounty Hunters
Discover over 20 new highly desirable loot items including the Armored Bantha Mount, the Zam Wesell Airspeeder, plus the first ever loot collection reward, the Merr-Sonn JT-12 jetpack!
I'm sorry but its up to the invidivual. I have been playing this game since before their TCG has been implmented. I play it now and I have no need or want of the diner or the speeder or whatever else they introduce. I am a bh and I only play BH. I am actually considered a very good BH and used as a source of information on how to make the class work. I dont have or use a jetpack of any kind and dont want one not with the way the move (Like a car along the ground in a strange horrizontal way due to the lack of the third axis. ) None of these items will make me a more effecitve BH. I prefer to have a ranchor mount which is an ingame BM mutation and use the stap speeder advanced and the bark from the GCW rewards and I have an AT-ST that I picked up for 2 mil from someone who didn't want it. You would not catch me dead using a jetpack as a bh...
As for the actual items. Anyone who CHOOSES to pay hundreds of dollars for a good loot card pull in SWG or WoW or any other game with a TCG has to have their head examined. The items are pixels and owned by the game makers. When the game goes the items go and everyone is busy trying to predict the demise of SWG. Given the fact that SWG is shutting down like every other week if you read these boards and the virtual items are not owned by the individual in any way shape or form and willl go poof the day the servers shut down one would have to be slightly retarded to spend this money on any single virtual item. So say what you will if you can't afford to loose it dont use the money no matter what happens you will never ever get it back so consider it gone good loot or not its gone forever.
You said people buying cards for loot was not SOE's intention in the first place. Hozloff disagreed with you and showed you why. His view that people buying cards for loot is the only intention SOE had...and pretty much proved his point. Do you still think that? Just wondering cause your reply was about something totally different. Why start a debate with someone in the first place if your gonna ignore what people are saying?
He may be debating, but I run by skim a thread comment on what I feel like and leave. As for "starting a debate" I quoted no one here he quoted me. He replied and ran by my computer again put in another 2 cents and left. I'm not debating and I never debate I throw in my two cents and agree or disagree as I see fit and leave. Whatever he is doing he can do and I"m not stopping him, but please excuse me if i dont take these issues serious enough to discuss them the way you want me too. Here is a newslflash I dont spend much time thinking about these threads I just post and leave. Apologies for not taking it as seriously as you are and "debating properly'. I simply dont care enough to bother
I'm also not "defending anything" I have seen no one of any authority prove that tcg's are gambling. I'm going by my power of reasoning and what I know. No one here has anymore to go on or any more authority to say something is gambling then I do to say its not. Both are opinions and until we know otherwise neither is either false or true. They are just statements made by laymen on a discussion board and that is all they are
Whatever.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
riiiiight....
perhaps that is why on every tcg promotional email and web site the "toys" are advertised as follows at the center of the page:
Squadrons over Corellia
The Best Loot Yet:
Squadrons Over Corellia features more than 20 loot cards that are redeemable* in the Star Wars Galaxies MMO for fantastic virtual items. And since this release includes the starship mechanic, the hottest piece of loot just might be the all-new V-wing Starfighter!
Bounty Hunters
Discover over 20 new highly desirable loot items including the Armored Bantha Mount, the Zam Wesell Airspeeder, plus the first ever loot collection reward, the Merr-Sonn JT-12 jetpack!
I'm sorry but its up to the invidivual. I have been playing this game since before their TCG has been implmented. I play it now and I have no need or want of the diner or the speeder or whatever else they introduce. I am a bh and I only play BH. I am actually considered a very good BH and used as a source of information on how to make the class work. I dont have or use a jetpack of any kind and dont want one not with the way the move (Like a car along the ground in a strange horrizontal way due to the lack of the third axis. ) None of these items will make me a more effecitve BH. I prefer to have a ranchor mount which is an ingame BM mutation and use the stap speeder advanced and the bark from the GCW rewards and I have an AT-ST that I picked up for 2 mil from someone who didn't want it. You would not catch me dead using a jetpack as a bh...
As for the actual items. Anyone who CHOOSES to pay hundreds of dollars for a good loot card pull in SWG or WoW or any other game with a TCG has to have their head examined. The items are pixels and owned by the game makers. When the game goes the items go and everyone is busy trying to predict the demise of SWG. Given the fact that SWG is shutting down like every other week if you read these boards and the virtual items are not owned by the individual in any way shape or form and willl go poof the day the servers shut down one would have to be slightly retarded to spend this money on any single virtual item. So say what you will if you can't afford to loose it dont use the money no matter what happens you will never ever get it back so consider it gone good loot or not its gone forever.
You said people buying cards for loot was not SOE's intention in the first place. Hozloff disagreed with you and showed you why. His view that people buying cards for loot is the only intention SOE had...and pretty much proved his point. Do you still think that? Just wondering cause your reply was about something totally different. Why start a debate with someone in the first place if your gonna ignore what people are saying?
He may be debating, but I run by skim a thread comment on what I feel like and leave. As for "starting a debate" I quoted no one here he quoted me. He replied and ran by my computer again put in another 2 cents and left. I'm not debating and I never debate I throw in my two cents and agree or disagree as I see fit and leave. Whatever he is doing he can do and I"m not stopping him, but please excuse me if i dont take these issues serious enough to discuss them the way you want me too. Here is a newslflash I dont spend much time thinking about these threads I just post and leave. Apologies for not taking it as seriously as you are and "debating properly'. I simply dont care enough to bother
I'm also not "defending anything" I have seen no one of any authority prove that tcg's are gambling. I'm going by my power of reasoning and what I know. No one here has anymore to go on or any more authority to say something is gambling then I do to say its not. Both are opinions and until we know otherwise neither is either false or true. They are just statements made by laymen on a discussion board and that is all they are
Whether or not RMT for a chance at TCG loot is gambling has been discussed in great detail in another thread. Specifically a new piece of U.S. legislation that specifies what kind of games of chance are legal within MMOs was cited. Aside from getting an Attorney General to pop in here during his or her free time (which usually doesn't exist by the way), that's probably as good as it's going to get.
Legalities aside though, I would like to hear what you think of a few things:
Do you really think it's player-friendly to have people pay real cash for new items, when these items used to be crafted and only available for ingame (fake) currency?
Do you think it's player-friendly to encourage people to risk real money hoping to win this loot by purchasing trading cards? Notice I didn't use the "g" word. It's not necessary. The concept is clear no matter what you call it.
If people spend real money hoping to get a virtual item, and they win, do you really think it's player-friendly to make plans to devalue those items?
The AGs' offices of consumer affairs (or the like) from Maryland, VA, and WVA have all communicated with me that they are looking into the TCG for SWG and for some other of SOE's titles, because of possible violations of different state gaming laws. Specifically two of them had a beef with the fact that it "gambling-like" in some respects AND that it was clearly aimed at those under 18. I had phone and email exchanges from 2 sets of investigators, but no follow up from WVA since the initial email. The AG office from DE didn't respond.
I am sure there are others out there that are doing the same....
Here's an interesting read for anyone curious about gambling in MMOs:
http://webpages.acs.ttu.edu/mmetheni/Internet%20Gambling%20and%20the%20MMORPG.htm
Also, legislators in the UK were working on a Bill that would require MMO companies to register with the Gambling Commission, if (and only if) their MMO includes games of chance where real money is at stake. Good idea if you ask me.
Further, as of Feb 2009 (yes that's now), the Federal Trade Commission is considering how it might begin to regulate EULAs. This will affect MMOs. Why are they looking at this? Because they get so many complaints from consumers that have paid for a service and got nothing, or paid for one service and got something else altogether. The MMO companies defence? The EULA. FTC's current perspective on this? Not cool.
My opinion? The flagrant disregard some MMO companies have shown their customers, and their use of EULAs to justify this, has been begging for this level of intervention for some time now. If these measures go through, we are all much more likely to get a quality service, to get the service we paid for, and to not have our money gouged via manipulative business models and unregulated games of chance.
If anyone has felt scammed by an MMO company by misleading marketting, by an unregulated game of chance etc., now is the time to let the FTC know. They are listening and responding right now:
Here's the link:
https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/
Players can and do make a difference when they speak up. Happy gaming ^_^.
riiiiight....
perhaps that is why on every tcg promotional email and web site the "toys" are advertised as follows at the center of the page:
Squadrons over Corellia
The Best Loot Yet:
Squadrons Over Corellia features more than 20 loot cards that are redeemable* in the Star Wars Galaxies MMO for fantastic virtual items. And since this release includes the starship mechanic, the hottest piece of loot just might be the all-new V-wing Starfighter!
Bounty Hunters
Discover over 20 new highly desirable loot items including the Armored Bantha Mount, the Zam Wesell Airspeeder, plus the first ever loot collection reward, the Merr-Sonn JT-12 jetpack!
I'm sorry but its up to the invidivual. I have been playing this game since before their TCG has been implmented. I play it now and I have no need or want of the diner or the speeder or whatever else they introduce. I am a bh and I only play BH. I am actually considered a very good BH and used as a source of information on how to make the class work. I dont have or use a jetpack of any kind and dont want one not with the way the move (Like a car along the ground in a strange horrizontal way due to the lack of the third axis. ) None of these items will make me a more effecitve BH. I prefer to have a ranchor mount which is an ingame BM mutation and use the stap speeder advanced and the bark from the GCW rewards and I have an AT-ST that I picked up for 2 mil from someone who didn't want it. You would not catch me dead using a jetpack as a bh...
As for the actual items. Anyone who CHOOSES to pay hundreds of dollars for a good loot card pull in SWG or WoW or any other game with a TCG has to have their head examined. The items are pixels and owned by the game makers. When the game goes the items go and everyone is busy trying to predict the demise of SWG. Given the fact that SWG is shutting down like every other week if you read these boards and the virtual items are not owned by the individual in any way shape or form and willl go poof the day the servers shut down one would have to be slightly retarded to spend this money on any single virtual item. So say what you will if you can't afford to loose it dont use the money no matter what happens you will never ever get it back so consider it gone good loot or not its gone forever.
You said people buying cards for loot was not SOE's intention in the first place. Hozloff disagreed with you and showed you why. His view that people buying cards for loot is the only intention SOE had...and pretty much proved his point. Do you still think that? Just wondering cause your reply was about something totally different. Why start a debate with someone in the first place if your gonna ignore what people are saying?
He may be debating, but I run by skim a thread comment on what I feel like and leave. As for "starting a debate" I quoted no one here he quoted me. He replied and ran by my computer again put in another 2 cents and left. I'm not debating and I never debate I throw in my two cents and agree or disagree as I see fit and leave. Whatever he is doing he can do and I"m not stopping him, but please excuse me if i dont take these issues serious enough to discuss them the way you want me too. Here is a newslflash I dont spend much time thinking about these threads I just post and leave. Apologies for not taking it as seriously as you are and "debating properly'. I simply dont care enough to bother
I'm also not "defending anything" I have seen no one of any authority prove that tcg's are gambling. I'm going by my power of reasoning and what I know. No one here has anymore to go on or any more authority to say something is gambling then I do to say its not. Both are opinions and until we know otherwise neither is either false or true. They are just statements made by laymen on a discussion board and that is all they are
Smedley has admitted that the card game was introduced so they could get into the micro transaction market. How is that authority enough for you?
Do you get a virtual item with each micro transaction? If you don't then that is in effect gambling as it relates to smedleys intentions. I'm not saying it is gambling to the degree of state/federal law violations, but still the same effect. You pay money for the chance to get something.
Not that any of this legal debate really matters when you look at the intent and purpose of the card games. It is undeniable that the goal was to get people to pay money for in game items. It is undeniable that these types of items were once the sole domain of players actions in the game and given as part of the subscription fee content updates or expansions.
Plain and simple soe is double dipping money from players for less content. Yet people continue to drink the cool aid and defend these vultures. It really boils down to a stupidity tax on subscribers.
Yes I know why they introduced the card game
people are talking about the loot included in the game as loot cards which are extras. Yes like any added item like say "tim hortons roll up the rim to win" there is a chance of getting a free something (donut or whatever) if you buy a cup of coffee as an extra and its used as an advertising hook, but tell me when you go to tim hortons to buy a cup of coffee are you buying it for the coffee in the cup or the possibility of a free plane trip to paris or a free whatever? Do you buy one coffee or 200 bucks worth of coffee in hopes you might get that "free loot". If you go buy 200 cups of coffee your kinda having issues, but if you went to tim hortons to buy a cup of coffee like you usually do and win a get a little something on the side that's great. However when Tim Hortons does it its probably okay with everyone here, but when Sony does it its not okay yet its the same principle applied. So this has nothing to do with the card game this has to do with those people saying that advertising the added loots extras you might get if you buy a deck of cards is "evil". I just hope no one buys tim hortons coffee here during those free promotions, or cracker jacks or fruit loops or anything else with a prize that may or may not be present.
riiiiight....
perhaps that is why on every tcg promotional email and web site the "toys" are advertised as follows at the center of the page:
Squadrons over Corellia
The Best Loot Yet:
Squadrons Over Corellia features more than 20 loot cards that are redeemable* in the Star Wars Galaxies MMO for fantastic virtual items. And since this release includes the starship mechanic, the hottest piece of loot just might be the all-new V-wing Starfighter!
Bounty Hunters
Discover over 20 new highly desirable loot items including the Armored Bantha Mount, the Zam Wesell Airspeeder, plus the first ever loot collection reward, the Merr-Sonn JT-12 jetpack!
I'm sorry but its up to the invidivual. I have been playing this game since before their TCG has been implmented. I play it now and I have no need or want of the diner or the speeder or whatever else they introduce. I am a bh and I only play BH. I am actually considered a very good BH and used as a source of information on how to make the class work. I dont have or use a jetpack of any kind and dont want one not with the way the move (Like a car along the ground in a strange horrizontal way due to the lack of the third axis. ) None of these items will make me a more effecitve BH. I prefer to have a ranchor mount which is an ingame BM mutation and use the stap speeder advanced and the bark from the GCW rewards and I have an AT-ST that I picked up for 2 mil from someone who didn't want it. You would not catch me dead using a jetpack as a bh...
As for the actual items. Anyone who CHOOSES to pay hundreds of dollars for a good loot card pull in SWG or WoW or any other game with a TCG has to have their head examined. The items are pixels and owned by the game makers. When the game goes the items go and everyone is busy trying to predict the demise of SWG. Given the fact that SWG is shutting down like every other week if you read these boards and the virtual items are not owned by the individual in any way shape or form and willl go poof the day the servers shut down one would have to be slightly retarded to spend this money on any single virtual item. So say what you will if you can't afford to loose it dont use the money no matter what happens you will never ever get it back so consider it gone good loot or not its gone forever.
You said people buying cards for loot was not SOE's intention in the first place. Hozloff disagreed with you and showed you why. His view that people buying cards for loot is the only intention SOE had...and pretty much proved his point. Do you still think that? Just wondering cause your reply was about something totally different. Why start a debate with someone in the first place if your gonna ignore what people are saying?
He may be debating, but I run by skim a thread comment on what I feel like and leave. As for "starting a debate" I quoted no one here he quoted me. He replied and ran by my computer again put in another 2 cents and left. I'm not debating and I never debate I throw in my two cents and agree or disagree as I see fit and leave. Whatever he is doing he can do and I"m not stopping him, but please excuse me if i dont take these issues serious enough to discuss them the way you want me too. Here is a newslflash I dont spend much time thinking about these threads I just post and leave. Apologies for not taking it as seriously as you are and "debating properly'. I simply dont care enough to bother
I'm also not "defending anything" I have seen no one of any authority prove that tcg's are gambling. I'm going by my power of reasoning and what I know. No one here has anymore to go on or any more authority to say something is gambling then I do to say its not. Both are opinions and until we know otherwise neither is either false or true. They are just statements made by laymen on a discussion board and that is all they are
Smedley has admitted that the card game was introduced so they could get into the micro transaction market. How is that authority enough for you?
Do you get a virtual item with each micro transaction? If you don't then that is in effect gambling as it relates to smedleys intentions. I'm not saying it is gambling to the degree of state/federal law violations, but still the same effect. You pay money for the chance to get something.
Not that any of this legal debate really matters when you look at the intent and purpose of the card games. It is undeniable that the goal was to get people to pay money for in game items. It is undeniable that these types of items were once the sole domain of players actions in the game and given as part of the subscription fee content updates or expansions.
Plain and simple soe is double dipping money from players for less content. Yet people continue to drink the cool aid and defend these vultures. It really boils down to a stupidity tax on subscribers.
Yes I know why they introduced the card game
people are talking about the loot included in the game as loot cards which are extras. Yes like any added item like say "tim hortons roll up the rim to win" there is a chance of getting a free something (donut or whatever) if you buy a cup of coffee as an extra and its used as an advertising hook, but tell me when you go to tim hortons to buy a cup of coffee are you buying it for the coffee in the cup or the possibility of a free plane trip to paris or a free whatever? Do you buy one coffee or 200 bucks worth of coffee in hopes you might get that "free loot". If you go buy 200 cups of coffee your kinda having issues, but if you went to tim hortons to buy a cup of coffee like you usually do and win a get a little something on the side that's great. However when Tim Hortons does it its probably okay with everyone here, but when Sony does it its not okay yet its the same principle applied. So this has nothing to do with the card game this has to do with those people saying that advertising the added loots extras you might get if you buy a deck of cards is "evil". I just hope no one buys tim hortons coffee here during those free promotions, or cracker jacks or fruit loops or anything else with a prize that may or may not be present.
The difference is that Tim Horton must publish the chances of winning. Same with the froot loops. If Kelloggs says you have a chance to win a xbox360 in the box they must publish the odds as well.
--------
Ten Golden Rules Of Videogame Fanboyism
"SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor
The difference is that Tim Horton must publish the chances of winning. Same with the froot loops. If Kelloggs says you have a chance to win a xbox360 in the box they must publish the odds as well.
I believe ArcAngel also pointed out that there is a no-purchase required to win part of the Tim Horton's promo. In other words you don't have to be "subscribed" to Tim Horton's to win.
The difference is that Tim Horton must publish the chances of winning. Same with the froot loops. If Kelloggs says you have a chance to win a xbox360 in the box they must publish the odds as well.
I believe ArcAngel also pointed out that there is a no-purchase required to win part of the Tim Horton's promo. In other words you don't have to be "subscribed" to Tim Horton's to win.
Arc is correct...it is part of the law that governs sweepstakes.
--------
Ten Golden Rules Of Videogame Fanboyism
"SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor
First of all your analogy is terrible and possibly one of the worst choices I have ever seen here.
To start with, the tim hortons roll up the cup game is in fact goverened by state and federal gambling laws. It is a game of chance and regulated in areas like chances to win, no purchase necessary, etc. For someone whos stance is that swg card game isn't gamling you sure picked a terrible analogy to hide behind.
Second, people buy tim hortons coffee without the game of chance. They are interested in the coffee. We both know that is not the case with swg card game. The card game would fail on its own merit and second the 'loot cards' were something the players were already getting for free with their subscription. The card game exists only as a vehicle to deliver the loot cards and is randomized to maximize profits at the expense of players having to "gamble" on the chance to get an item.
You cannot compare it to buying a cup of coffee. They do not even remotely share the same similarities and honestly illustrates just how out of touch you are on this issue. Then you have the nerve to start making smart assed comments about evil this or that as if you actually have solid ground to stand on from this half witted analogy?
Whats funny is that you really thought you hit a homerun with this comparison.
First of all your analogy is terrible and possibly one of the worst choices I have ever seen here.
To start with, the tim hortons roll up the cup game is in fact goverened by state and federal gambling laws. It is a game of chance and regulated in areas like chances to win, no purchase necessary, etc. For someone whos stance is that swg card game isn't gamling you sure picked a terrible analogy to hide behind.
Second, people buy tim hortons coffee without the game of chance. They are interested in the coffee. We both know that is not the case with swg card game. The card game would fail on its own merit and second the 'loot cards' were something the players were already getting for free with their subscription. The card game exists only as a vehicle to deliver the loot cards and is randomized to maximize profits at the expense of players having to "gamble" on the chance to get an item.
You cannot compare it to buying a cup of coffee. They do not even remotely share the same similarities and honestly illustrates just how out of touch you are on this issue. Then you have the nerve to start making smart assed comments about evil this or that as if you actually have solid ground to stand on from this half witted analogy?
Whats funny is that you really thought you hit a homerun with this comparison.
Good summary. Details regarding sweepstakes promotionals like this have already been covered in another thread. The main differences (official links have been posted) between these and the TCG are: no purchase necessary--of any kind--and published odds of winning.
So to enlighten the as yet uninformed, that means you don't have to buy a coffee to participate in the Tim Horton's sweepstakes; you can enter by mail. Google away if you want confirmation, this is clearly spelled out on the site.
Why do they do it this way? It's the law. Why is it the law? So that unethical companies don't hook people into a gambling scenario outside of their awareness and milk them for all they've got.
In some ways, this is unfortunate. I don't think gamers really want gov'mint involved, but since companies cannot seem to keep a lid on their greed, it becomes inevitable. If the MMO companies would simply wake up and establish consistent service policies and self-policing, they might be able to head off gov'mint action.
But they won't, so there you have it.
First of all your analogy is terrible and possibly one of the worst choices I have ever seen here.
To start with, the tim hortons roll up the cup game is in fact goverened by state and federal gambling laws. It is a game of chance and regulated in areas like chances to win, no purchase necessary, etc. For someone whos stance is that swg card game isn't gamling you sure picked a terrible analogy to hide behind.
Second, people buy tim hortons coffee without the game of chance. They are interested in the coffee. We both know that is not the case with swg card game. The card game would fail on its own merit and second the 'loot cards' were something the players were already getting for free with their subscription. The card game exists only as a vehicle to deliver the loot cards and is randomized to maximize profits at the expense of players having to "gamble" on the chance to get an item.
You cannot compare it to buying a cup of coffee. They do not even remotely share the same similarities and honestly illustrates just how out of touch you are on this issue. Then you have the nerve to start making smart assed comments about evil this or that as if you actually have solid ground to stand on from this half witted analogy?
Whats funny is that you really thought you hit a homerun with this comparison.
Did are or are people making more assumptions?
lets make it more simple shall we?
do you condemn tim hortons for putting free donuts offers on the rims of their cups? No says you?
why do you condemn sony for putting free paintings or diners in their card games? (here i will put words in your mouth for you this time.. cause you hate sony ... )
As an aside the last time I actually went and asked for a cup from these guys cause I was thirsty and didn't want the coffee just a glass of water they made me pay for the cup. Are they any more or less greedy then sony ? The answer is no. Are they actualyl breaking the law? well I would say no but the "jury is out on that and that jury is not found on this website. If in fact they are found to be breaking the law as I said previously on this all that will happen is that they will be asked to rework some of their legal stuff put some more fine print on the bottom of their already long elua's and terms of service that absolutely no one will read and they will be fine. Now sony is a very large machine and they have an entire herd of lawyers its possible they had a brain fart when they assembled this stuff, but I find that hard to believe. If this is so though not only sony is going to be dealt with any other company that offers anything remotely similar to this will be dealt with as well and that includes blizzard. (and I do know that a great many people here prefer to give their money to blizzard even though they do the same things to their customers that sony does..) Are you prepared for the consequences of your actions? I know I'm very interested to see what people will say when and if they succeed in making a case for no other reason then they have waaaay to much time on their hands. I think it will be more then a little bit interested to see what people will do next and I for one can't wait to see the next chapter of this crusade that people are on. Especialy in light of the fact that a great many people here scream about freedom on this board at the top of their lungs and want like no one to control them. Its ironic really I have been in a situation where the government came down hard on a company for actual unregulated gambling inside a game and I live in a counry where free speech is in fact not legal or a civil right. I think though when it does happen and people's card games are ruined for them. I will as usual be sitting here and wondering what all the fuss is about (yet again) cause in essence as in previous cases where things changed the ones asking for and lobbying for the change screamed the loudest when it did occur. Which is always entertainingt to watch and people like myself can do some more rubbernecking as we watch yet another train reck brought upon themselves
(edited after finishing my cup of coffee)
I have to say I am watching as usual as the SWG forum moves once again from sublime to ridiculous. I will hazard a guess a small guess here that the bulk of people lobbying for change are not really thinking about what will happen when that changes does occur. Its a safe bet though that what you really want to happen wont be happening. Sony will still exist, John Smedly will still have his job and life will carry on in the industry for those people as they obey more rules and regulations. They will still make money and lots of it and SWG, EQ and all the new games not yet created will still be made. The only thing that will change here is that more people will be screaming (probably the same ones) about something else brought on by people who seek to lobby for change motivated by nothing more then dislike of a single company. When you think about it for a few minutes its actually kinda funny. I do hope you succeed I mean that sincerely. I want to see what happens next. I myself prefer to stay out of it and just play the games and ignore the rmt parts.
I see you are still trying to bend some stupid coffee analogy around the RMT issue as if they are identical and suitable comparisons. Please stop, they don't and it doesn't make your arguements any more compelling. I think I did a fine job pointing out just how incorrect you made yourself look already.
All you are doing is obfuscating the real details by trying to associate the card game with some other issue and then jumping to several absurd conclusions to elicite an emotional response. Again, stop. You can't just pick any other aspects of life and try to make compelling discussion by picking and choosing small aspects of each, ignoring all the differences and pretending they are the same thing. It doesn't work like that.
For the record, I am not of the mindset that this breaks any gambling laws, but it may. I don't know. However it doesn't matter how many lawyers sony has. That hasn't stopped them from getting their butts handed to them in several fraud cases in the past and I doubt any number of lawyers could avoid a loss if uncle sam suspects for one second they are missing out on gambling tax revenue. I don't care who they have.
I agree, soe will carry on and smedley will still have his job. Nothing will change. Soe will continue marching straight down the path they have been for years and every game decision will under go the company theme of "how can we get our players to spend more money on what we are already giving them". So feel free to sit back with that smug little perk that nothing will change as if it is somehow a good thing,because they people who it affects most are just to apathetic to do anything about it. /golfclap.
That coffee analogy is lol, but otherwise, I agree that SOE will continue to exist and John will continue to be the bitch that he is.
First of all your analogy is terrible and possibly one of the worst choices I have ever seen here.
To start with, the tim hortons roll up the cup game is in fact goverened by state and federal gambling laws. It is a game of chance and regulated in areas like chances to win, no purchase necessary, etc. For someone whos stance is that swg card game isn't gamling you sure picked a terrible analogy to hide behind.
Second, people buy tim hortons coffee without the game of chance. They are interested in the coffee. We both know that is not the case with swg card game. The card game would fail on its own merit and second the 'loot cards' were something the players were already getting for free with their subscription. The card game exists only as a vehicle to deliver the loot cards and is randomized to maximize profits at the expense of players having to "gamble" on the chance to get an item.
You cannot compare it to buying a cup of coffee. They do not even remotely share the same similarities and honestly illustrates just how out of touch you are on this issue. Then you have the nerve to start making smart assed comments about evil this or that as if you actually have solid ground to stand on from this half witted analogy?
Whats funny is that you really thought you hit a homerun with this comparison.
Did are or are people making more assumptions?
lets make it more simple shall we?
do you condemn tim hortons for putting free donuts offers on the rims of their cups? No says you?
why do you condemn sony for putting free paintings or diners in their card games? (here i will put words in your mouth for you this time.. cause you hate sony ... )
As an aside the last time I actually went and asked for a cup from these guys cause I was thirsty and didn't want the coffee just a glass of water they made me pay for the cup. Are they any more or less greedy then sony ? The answer is no. Are they actualyl breaking the law? well I would say no but the "jury is out on that and that jury is not found on this website. If in fact they are found to be breaking the law as I said previously on this all that will happen is that they will be asked to rework some of their legal stuff put some more fine print on the bottom of their already long elua's and terms of service that absolutely no one will read and they will be fine. Now sony is a very large machine and they have an entire herd of lawyers its possible they had a brain fart when they assembled this stuff, but I find that hard to believe. If this is so though not only sony is going to be dealt with any other company that offers anything remotely similar to this will be dealt with as well and that includes blizzard. (and I do know that a great many people here prefer to give their money to blizzard even though they do the same things to their customers that sony does..) Are you prepared for the consequences of your actions? I know I'm very interested to see what people will say when and if they succeed in making a case for no other reason then they have waaaay to much time on their hands. I think it will be more then a little bit interested to see what people will do next and I for one can't wait to see the next chapter of this crusade that people are on. Especialy in light of the fact that a great many people here scream about freedom on this board at the top of their lungs and want like no one to control them. Its ironic really I have been in a situation where the government came down hard on a company for actual unregulated gambling inside a game and I live in a counry where free speech is in fact not legal or a civil right. I think though when it does happen and people's card games are ruined for them. I will as usual be sitting here and wondering what all the fuss is about (yet again) cause in essence as in previous cases where things changed the ones asking for and lobbying for the change screamed the loudest when it did occur. Which is always entertainingt to watch and people like myself can do some more rubbernecking as we watch yet another train reck brought upon themselves
(edited after finishing my cup of coffee)
I have to say I am watching as usual as the SWG forum moves once again from sublime to ridiculous. I will hazard a guess a small guess here that the bulk of people lobbying for change are not really thinking about what will happen when that changes does occur. Its a safe bet though that what you really want to happen wont be happening. Sony will still exist, John Smedly will still have his job and life will carry on in the industry for those people as they obey more rules and regulations. They will still make money and lots of it and SWG, EQ and all the new games not yet created will still be made. The only thing that will change here is that more people will be screaming (probably the same ones) about something else brought on by people who seek to lobby for change motivated by nothing more then dislike of a single company. When you think about it for a few minutes its actually kinda funny. I do hope you succeed I mean that sincerely. I want to see what happens next. I myself prefer to stay out of it and just play the games and ignore the rmt parts.
Your analogies are poorly argued and your diatribe is long for saying absolutely nothing at all. But then again you do not engage in debate on forums do you.
--------
Ten Golden Rules Of Videogame Fanboyism
"SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor
First of all your analogy is terrible and possibly one of the worst choices I have ever seen here.
To start with, the tim hortons roll up the cup game is in fact goverened by state and federal gambling laws. It is a game of chance and regulated in areas like chances to win, no purchase necessary, etc. For someone whos stance is that swg card game isn't gamling you sure picked a terrible analogy to hide behind.
Second, people buy tim hortons coffee without the game of chance. They are interested in the coffee. We both know that is not the case with swg card game. The card game would fail on its own merit and second the 'loot cards' were something the players were already getting for free with their subscription. The card game exists only as a vehicle to deliver the loot cards and is randomized to maximize profits at the expense of players having to "gamble" on the chance to get an item.
You cannot compare it to buying a cup of coffee. They do not even remotely share the same similarities and honestly illustrates just how out of touch you are on this issue. Then you have the nerve to start making smart assed comments about evil this or that as if you actually have solid ground to stand on from this half witted analogy?
Whats funny is that you really thought you hit a homerun with this comparison.
Did are or are people making more assumptions?
lets make it more simple shall we?
do you condemn tim hortons for putting free donuts offers on the rims of their cups? No says you?
why do you condemn sony for putting free paintings or diners in their card games? (here i will put words in your mouth for you this time.. cause you hate sony ... )
As an aside the last time I actually went and asked for a cup from these guys cause I was thirsty and didn't want the coffee just a glass of water they made me pay for the cup. Are they any more or less greedy then sony ? The answer is no. Are they actualyl breaking the law? well I would say no but the "jury is out on that and that jury is not found on this website. If in fact they are found to be breaking the law as I said previously on this all that will happen is that they will be asked to rework some of their legal stuff put some more fine print on the bottom of their already long elua's and terms of service that absolutely no one will read and they will be fine. Now sony is a very large machine and they have an entire herd of lawyers its possible they had a brain fart when they assembled this stuff, but I find that hard to believe. If this is so though not only sony is going to be dealt with any other company that offers anything remotely similar to this will be dealt with as well and that includes blizzard. (and I do know that a great many people here prefer to give their money to blizzard even though they do the same things to their customers that sony does..) Are you prepared for the consequences of your actions? I know I'm very interested to see what people will say when and if they succeed in making a case for no other reason then they have waaaay to much time on their hands. I think it will be more then a little bit interested to see what people will do next and I for one can't wait to see the next chapter of this crusade that people are on. Especialy in light of the fact that a great many people here scream about freedom on this board at the top of their lungs and want like no one to control them. Its ironic really I have been in a situation where the government came down hard on a company for actual unregulated gambling inside a game and I live in a counry where free speech is in fact not legal or a civil right. I think though when it does happen and people's card games are ruined for them. I will as usual be sitting here and wondering what all the fuss is about (yet again) cause in essence as in previous cases where things changed the ones asking for and lobbying for the change screamed the loudest when it did occur. Which is always entertainingt to watch and people like myself can do some more rubbernecking as we watch yet another train reck brought upon themselves
(edited after finishing my cup of coffee)
I have to say I am watching as usual as the SWG forum moves once again from sublime to ridiculous. I will hazard a guess a small guess here that the bulk of people lobbying for change are not really thinking about what will happen when that changes does occur. Its a safe bet though that what you really want to happen wont be happening. Sony will still exist, John Smedly will still have his job and life will carry on in the industry for those people as they obey more rules and regulations. They will still make money and lots of it and SWG, EQ and all the new games not yet created will still be made. The only thing that will change here is that more people will be screaming (probably the same ones) about something else brought on by people who seek to lobby for change motivated by nothing more then dislike of a single company. When you think about it for a few minutes its actually kinda funny. I do hope you succeed I mean that sincerely. I want to see what happens next. I myself prefer to stay out of it and just play the games and ignore the rmt parts.
Your analogies are poorly argued and your diatribe is long for saying absolutely nothing at all. But then again you do not engage in debate on forums do you.
Fortunately, MMORPG.com has provided us with the nice "Block" button, so there is a defense against the rambling and meaningless walls of text that seem to be all too common in here....
First of all your analogy is terrible and possibly one of the worst choices I have ever seen here.
To start with, the tim hortons roll up the cup game is in fact goverened by state and federal gambling laws. It is a game of chance and regulated in areas like chances to win, no purchase necessary, etc. For someone whos stance is that swg card game isn't gamling you sure picked a terrible analogy to hide behind.
Second, people buy tim hortons coffee without the game of chance. They are interested in the coffee. We both know that is not the case with swg card game. The card game would fail on its own merit and second the 'loot cards' were something the players were already getting for free with their subscription. The card game exists only as a vehicle to deliver the loot cards and is randomized to maximize profits at the expense of players having to "gamble" on the chance to get an item.
You cannot compare it to buying a cup of coffee. They do not even remotely share the same similarities and honestly illustrates just how out of touch you are on this issue. Then you have the nerve to start making smart assed comments about evil this or that as if you actually have solid ground to stand on from this half witted analogy?
Whats funny is that you really thought you hit a homerun with this comparison.
Did are or are people making more assumptions?
lets make it more simple shall we?
do you condemn tim hortons for putting free donuts offers on the rims of their cups? No says you?
why do you condemn sony for putting free paintings or diners in their card games? (here i will put words in your mouth for you this time.. cause you hate sony ... )
As an aside the last time I actually went and asked for a cup from these guys cause I was thirsty and didn't want the coffee just a glass of water they made me pay for the cup. Are they any more or less greedy then sony ? The answer is no. Are they actualyl breaking the law? well I would say no but the "jury is out on that and that jury is not found on this website. If in fact they are found to be breaking the law as I said previously on this all that will happen is that they will be asked to rework some of their legal stuff put some more fine print on the bottom of their already long elua's and terms of service that absolutely no one will read and they will be fine. Now sony is a very large machine and they have an entire herd of lawyers its possible they had a brain fart when they assembled this stuff, but I find that hard to believe. If this is so though not only sony is going to be dealt with any other company that offers anything remotely similar to this will be dealt with as well and that includes blizzard. (and I do know that a great many people here prefer to give their money to blizzard even though they do the same things to their customers that sony does..) Are you prepared for the consequences of your actions? I know I'm very interested to see what people will say when and if they succeed in making a case for no other reason then they have waaaay to much time on their hands. I think it will be more then a little bit interested to see what people will do next and I for one can't wait to see the next chapter of this crusade that people are on. Especialy in light of the fact that a great many people here scream about freedom on this board at the top of their lungs and want like no one to control them. Its ironic really I have been in a situation where the government came down hard on a company for actual unregulated gambling inside a game and I live in a counry where free speech is in fact not legal or a civil right. I think though when it does happen and people's card games are ruined for them. I will as usual be sitting here and wondering what all the fuss is about (yet again) cause in essence as in previous cases where things changed the ones asking for and lobbying for the change screamed the loudest when it did occur. Which is always entertainingt to watch and people like myself can do some more rubbernecking as we watch yet another train reck brought upon themselves
(edited after finishing my cup of coffee)
I have to say I am watching as usual as the SWG forum moves once again from sublime to ridiculous. I will hazard a guess a small guess here that the bulk of people lobbying for change are not really thinking about what will happen when that changes does occur. Its a safe bet though that what you really want to happen wont be happening. Sony will still exist, John Smedly will still have his job and life will carry on in the industry for those people as they obey more rules and regulations. They will still make money and lots of it and SWG, EQ and all the new games not yet created will still be made. The only thing that will change here is that more people will be screaming (probably the same ones) about something else brought on by people who seek to lobby for change motivated by nothing more then dislike of a single company. When you think about it for a few minutes its actually kinda funny. I do hope you succeed I mean that sincerely. I want to see what happens next. I myself prefer to stay out of it and just play the games and ignore the rmt parts.
Your analogies are poorly argued and your diatribe is long for saying absolutely nothing at all. But then again you do not engage in debate on forums do you.
Fortunately, MMORPG.com has provided us with the nice "Block" button, so there is a defense against the rambling and meaningless walls of text that seem to be all too common in here....
Awww sorry is my "debating' doing nothing for you. My bad I will use smaller words and shorter sentances next time. I forget that average audience on message boards tends to loose focus after the first phrase. Apologies for not meeting your posting needs or thinking ilke you. Thankfully I'm my own person, but when you run out of words to put on paper you must digress into personal crap again. So I will post that I have noticed you doing it again and hope that the thread goes back to an actual topic instead of "omg I dont understand ummax * again fumbles for dictionary and text books* for ways to turn the thread into a ummax thread.
Better work on a ummax stamp of approval
for my posts. When someone digresses into this I really should have a stamp or something to post instead of words.
"Tis better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt."
The problem is not that you are not understood...it is the fact what you post makes no factual sense and draws completely ludicrous conclusions...but please continue on with your non-debating form of debating. It is like watching a chicken with its head newly removed.
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Ten Golden Rules Of Videogame Fanboyism
"SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor
Now you are going to say other people have degraded to insults as replacement for discussion?!?!?!?!?
Please reread what I just quoted from you to see just how hypocritical you are being... again. Now stop thinking about what you are going to rebut with and read it again. This time really read it and pay attention to the words you use, the insults, the lack of viewpoints or debate.
You have a serious case of pot and kettle, but I'm sure that will be resolved when you get another forum ban.
Now you are going to say other people have degraded to insults as replacement for discussion?!?!?!?!?
Please reread what I just quoted from you to see just how hypocritical you are being... again. Now stop thinking about what you are going to rebut with and read it again. This time really read it and pay attention to the words you use, the insults, the lack of viewpoints or debate.
You have a serious case of pot and kettle, but I'm sure that will be resolved when you get another forum ban.
Well, you know, sometimes I think some folks just disagree for the sake of disagreeing. I also think some people will defend their psychological happy place (i.e. MMO of choice) at any cost to other players, and often at the expense of accurate information, but what can you do? I just make a mental note of who does and who doesn't appear interested in respectful dialogue, and who does and who doesn't seem interested in accurate information that may challenge their point of view. Some folks just don't want to hear anything that doesn't fit their current mental schema I think. C'est la vie.