I'm now convinced that you don't actually understand what other people say here, and that you project all kinds of strange meanings onto others' statements and then proceed to argue against points that were never in fact made. Really, you're assumptions are all over the map. It really isn't possible to have a dialogue with someone when this level of projection is present.
Again, if you want to discuss whether or not nerfing RMT items is a good idea, that suits me fine. As for me being some kind of foreigner with a malevolent agenda, well no lol, I don't think that's a subject that has any basis in reality at all.
Hrm want me to dig up all the threads you made supporting the fact that you want to prove that the TCG is illegal and that people are gambling for a diner? because you did use the word win not me. So dont play innocent because there are a good 2 dozen threads here created by you stating that you consider that getting a free diner and "winning" it is gambling. I'm sorry but threads kinda go off topic all the time. When you remove the word "win" from your jargon plus all the other things you have saidi n this thread maybe then I wil believe you and not before.
Originally posted by ArcAngel3
Again, if you want to discuss whether or not nerfing RMT items is a good idea, that suits me fine. As for me being some kind of foreigner with a malevolent agenda, well no lol, I don't think that's a subject that has any basis in reality at all.
Dont tempt me because I have a photographic memory that is off the chart and can find the info in a very short time on this forum.
Perhaps if you stopped referring to things as "winning" when you get a free toy this issue would not have popped up, but the fact of the matter is that is has and about 3/4 of the discussion on this threas is about legality.
As for benevolent another strange word, but no I dont consider you benevolent at all. I do consider that you have just flip flopped as a few pages back you were trying to get people to go to the FTC and complain all of a sudden your not?
Um, I didn't say "benevolent." You're doing it again. Your photographic memory seems to remember the opposite of what was actually said.
Also, I posted information that the FTC is currently looking at MMO EULAs. I read this in an interesting legal forum a few days ago. If anyone wants to have input, I provided a link, since it's now on their radar.
Since this forum is for MMO players, and the FTC is looking at MMO EULAs, this made a lot of sense to me. If people don't like some MMO EULAs, now is the time to speak up. If you like MMO EULAs just fine, no one is pressuring you to say or do anything.
Also, this is an international matter, so yes, I think it's okay for me to comment on it. Suggesting that I should remain silent because of my nationality is frankly offensive.
P.S. If I was to accurately summarize my thoughts in this thread they would be:
-nerfing RMT items that people just won seems like a bad idea (this refers to people who purchased TCG booster packs hoping for a particular loot item, and they were successful in obtaining it),
-hey did you know that apparently the FTC is looking at MMO EULAs? If you want to have input into this process, now would be a good time; it's apparently on the radar,
-you may also find it interesting to know that European officials are looking at methods of regulating games of chance within MMOs, fyi.
That's it. Any other message or meaning never came from me, it was projected onto my comments for reasons outside my awareness, which as I said, makes meaningful discussion very challenging.
P.P.S. Lol, okay now I've just noticed you're making more absurd accusations. Yes I think I'll stop trying to share the light of reason. You may now feel free to have the last word if you like, sharing information and clarifying my meaning doesn't appear to be helpful. C'est la vie. I do wish you enjoyment in your MMO of choice btw, even if I don't agree with the way it's run at times
Um, I didn't say "benevolent." You're doing it again. Your photographic memory seems to remember the opposite of what was actually said.
Also, I posted information that the FTC is currently looking at MMO EULAs. I read this in an interesting legal forum a few days ago. If anyone wants to have input, I provided a link, since it's now on their radar.
Since this forum is for MMO players, and the FTC is looking at MMO EULAs, this made a lot of sense to me. If people don't like some MMO EULAs, now is the time to speak up. If you like MMO EULAs just fine, no one is pressuring you to say or do anything.
Also, this is an international matter, so yes, I think it's okay for me to comment on it. Suggesting that I should remain silent because of my nationality is frankly offensive.
P.S. If I was to accurately summarize my thoughts in this thread they would be:
-nerfing RMT items that people just won seems like a bad idea (this refers to people who purchased TCG booster packs hoping for a particular loot item, and they were successful in obtaining it),
-hey did you know that apparently the FTC is looking at MMO EULAs? If you want to have input into this process, now would be a good time; it's apparently on the radar,
-you may also find it interesting to know that European officials are looking at methods of regulating games of chance within MMOs, fyi.
That's it. Any other message or meaning never came from me, it was projected onto my comments for reasons outside my awareness, which as I said, makes meaningful discussion very challenging.
-------------------------
took the quote out this board hates my browser again. ..actualy it was edited here is the original i was replying too..
yeah i misread it the word sorry. its still a strange word but whatever....
Back to the actual topic
you started this thread with a question a simple one at that, but it was indeed a lead in (at least your not denying it now). After you go your answer you and only you drove the thread in the directiony you intended and your sole purpose since the introduction of this particular TCG (not any other one as usual which is why I consider what your doing to be more then a bit inappropirate) as illegal. You are again now back to trying to present it as fact that what sony is doing is not legal. Again I will reitterate it can't be illegal if there is no law to cover it and from what I have seen you post you have proven to me only that there is no law to cover it so it can't possibly be illegal. Since sony is one of a veritable plethora of companies that is doing this and this particular gimmic is as old as the hills its more then a bit of a stretch for it suddenly to be illegal. You may find this type of business unethical and that is your perogative, but to then turn around and call what you find as bad business ethics to be a point of law and illegal is over the top. That is all I have to really say on the issue. You have spent a great deal of time on this issue so pretending that you have not its impossible in fact I can't think off the top of my head of any other single poster on this forum posting threads trying to prove that what sony is doing is gambling and illegal. Its really a problem for you and you do feel a need to try to impose your value system on others around here and have been getting more adamant and using stronger and stronger words on the issue for awhile. I personally think that trying to make the american system anymore complicated and convoluted then it really is is folly its already teetering on the brink of imploding in on itself as americans try to solve everything with legal representation of some sort.
If you find it unethical just take your wallet and go elsewhere, but at this point in time as a person who seems to have not played this game for litterally years what your doing can be considered to be medling. I personally have an issue with people who take on crusades over issues that they personally are not involved and for more then one reason. You made a post awhile back about gamers playing this game not asking for your help or seeming to want it. You post was correct on that issue then and it is now. As a gamer that actually finds that I enjoy the TCG's after playing them now since I got to look at one for free (well two really as the on in eq2 has been around for awhile and I have started playing that one as well) I will tell you right now and mirror what others who are playing them are saying. They are not illegal and we would appreciate it if you would just leave us alone.
Thankfully for me and others your doing this on a forum that doesn't really get taken very seriously and the list of supporters i can count on one hand. Someone else made a post in the early stages of this thread and I think you should take his advice.
Anyhow now that in my mind anyhow this is settled and i have said what I felt like saying and feel that its quite apparent that your not in denial because at last post I saw. Have fun but realize that no not everyone is in agreement with you in your assessment and its not just me that has stated so and that the ones actually truly playing the TCG dont want to have to deal with more red tape then already exists and let me tell you that as a 'foreigner" playing these american TCG's the red tape I have to go through right now with sony in order to just play in a tournament and the sommersaults I am having to do are not fun. Oddly enough in all your posts on this you seem to ignore it when sony does in fact use the legal red tape necessary which I find even more strange. You see they do have something which is clearly heavily regulated right now by the goverment but your ignoring all that red tape they pay attention to. Rest assured that any law that does exist in relation to what sony does its being made painfully obvious to foreigners just want a pain in the rear they are as we try to negotiate them.
Anyhow have fun with this. I look forward to the day when I have to negotiate more red tape in order to play an american video game WOOHOO!
by the way I'm from the same country as you
edit you edited the thread twice and now your back to denying it. Its not an accusation its a reality I remember clearly the post you made about wanting to help your friends in swg "occasionaly not get the dirty end of the stick" and then speaking of why are you trying to help people who dont want your help
bottom line good luck been nice watching it unfold, but denying it will get you knowhere. I'm not the only one who sees it just the one most willing to indulge this small crowd for more then a single post a month.
Anyhow archangel there are few here who i think have actual personal agendas and who realy are here just to either troll or discuss. I do consider though that you are indeed one of the maybe 2 or 3 that frequent these forums with a personal agenda.
I say this for more then 1 reason well two actually
1) you came at me one day using the word and that I have an agenda (again not normal conversation on a board )
2) you get hung up on single issues and spend great amounts of energy on them
okay I lied 3
3) you pretty much stated that you were on a mission of trying to help swg gamers at one point and that is when I realized that this TCG thing for you was more then just an interesting topic up to that point I just thought it was a new plaything for this forum to rant about .
Anyhow archangel there are few here who i think have actual personal agendas and who realy are here just to either troll or discuss. I do consider though that you are indeed one of the maybe 2 or 3 that frequent these forums with a personal agenda. I say this for more then 1 reason well two actually 1) you came at me one day using the word and that I have an agenda (again not normal conversation on a board ) 2) you get hung up on single issues and spend great amounts of energy on them okay I lied 3 3) you pretty much stated that you were on a mission of trying to help swg gamers at one point and that is when I realized that this TCG thing for you was more then just an interesting topic up to that point I just thought it was a new plaything for this forum to rant about .
ummax doesn't understand what hypocrisy is...but all she has to do is look in the mirror.
I understand that you love to troll that is all I understand. I understand that everyone in this thread is in fact a human being and that there is a lot of skimming going on however this is special for ummax in that you love to point out when I do it but never ever point out when anyone else does it . There is a reason for that and we both know what that is. It does not change the fact that at least 3 times in this thread I have been misinterpreted and that you are not pointing out anyone else doing it only ummax. I don't see you going at archangel or the other one daffodil for misreading only ummax. There is a reason for that though and until you level the playing field or get borred of toying with ummax for your own personal pleasure this will continue because you want it to.
So if you insult ummax be fair and insult anyone else who has done this here because I'm not the only one just the one you want to mess with. We both know why that is, but can you even admit it to yourself?
Daff and Arch actually make sense and make coherrent arguments. You however do not. I am completely convinced though that you are not ignorant. So you got that going for you.
Seriously, are you now refering to yourself in 3rd person perspective?
Well, kefkah says that is A-OK! He is enjoying this thread thoroughly despite the fact that the orginal points of the argument have been lost in a sea of projection and bias. Why, kefkah even thinks that Archangel still should start his own blog called MMOLawdog or the like where he can hash out some of his finer points without having to deal with "Quill" like rants laden with weak arguments that are propped up with spite in order to make them stronger.
And finally, kefkah now declares this day 3rd Person Perspective Day! Everyone must post in such a manner as to honor this innovative approach to debate.
yes well thanks for that the caps was not the issue my question is though and still is why did you quote all those other people when in fact I was not talking to you but them. Seeing as I was not talking to you and actually quoted one line why on earth did you pick an innappropriate statement. Everyone skims here that is the problem to say i'm nuts etc is just wierd. All this stems from me saying that they originally stated they nerfed the diner, then they said they would not remove the +5 and have in fact prevented it from stackable only after saying that the initial =+5 was not intended. Am I any more or less clued out then anyone else here? no the answer is no and I was not in fact responding to a single word you said as I had said my piece I was responding to the two trolls who were in fact insulting me. By the way calling me nuts kind of takes the focus away from what your saying. In any event sorry for the misunderstanding, but its quite clear that you were reacting to a statment not even directed at you. Somehow that was missed so you did the same thing as well and on top of it you completely misread what I said and were focusing on the TCG and not the prizes the issue here was and is the prizes. Archangel is attempting to prove that the TCG is gambling because of a free prize they include and that no one buys the actual cards they only want the prizes. So I redirect it back at that and restate my original statement that the TCG is not gambling and never was neither is including a piece of loot in the packages. What we have here is a guy who is trying to shoehorn a legal definition of gambling and if you read his posts they are getting more and more blatently obvious as he uses more and more words in each post on the issue. I take issue with that and for one reason and one reason only he is attempting to get people to use his terminology in the discussions by repeatedly hammering away at it even when searching for information on the diner he doesn't say "those who got a free diner from a loot card" he says "those who won a diner" or "those who gambled for a diner" or something similar. He is attemting to use the same terminology over and over again in order to work certain jargon into the conversation. That's someone who has and is putting a lot more thought into things then is normal and smacks or rather reaks of a lobbyist here with a true agenda. Then he links up some scanty statement or article which really doesn't say much other and uses that as some sort of "proof" that its gambling and then he says here is a link the the FTC and go do something about it. That's lobbying So as an aside and to archangel I have something that I am gonna say and I hope he takes it exactly how its meant and not something else. As a non american what rights does he have to urge people to ask for more regulations for americans? I have several american friends and they dont want to be more regulated they want to be left alone. The complaints I hear about over regulation from americans and the complexity of their system since it changes from state to state are legitimate complaint. I take issue when lobbyists seak to lobby for more regulation to be put into place for americans for the pure and simple fact that they dont want it. Yet here he is continuously hammering away at the issue in some way shape or form.
This is exactly what I am talking about. I never called you nut or crazy. Care to show me where I did? Some other people may have called you crazy and here you are lumping me into the masses. See what I mean about entering a conversation with a closed mind and skimming posts?
Either you don't understand some of the terms I am using or you are demonstrating extactly what I have been saying.
You say everyone here skims, but you seem to be the only person who can't keep simple facts straight. You constantly blame people for things that others said. Just like you quote people for saying things they never said. -Honestly you are all over the map with your accusations and references. Most of them don't make any sense and the ones that are coherent are typically incorrect.
As for not addressing me, so what. This is a public forum and last I checked this topic didn't specifically start out addressing you, but here you are posting. If you don't want to share in your discussion then send someone an email. Otherwise learn to live with the rest of the posters here and their opinions.
Now you want to take offence with someones terminology? Ok, I will address that in another post.
um I don't think nerfing RMT items that people just won is a good idea... That's all I'm really saying.
no one won anything they got a free loot card when they bought a package of playing cards. Nice try though. I commend you for your staying power, but honestly the free diner can and will be nerfed if need be. They didnt gamble for it or win it in any way shape of form.
Since the original diner was not intended to be +5 because sony in fact has made the effort to cap experimentation points anyone with a brain would realize that eventually sony would have seen it and repaired the issue. The reality is that stuff moves way to fast on their test servers and they really dont beta test any longer and so they missed the +5 and they keep fiddling around to deal with it and they keep changing their mind, but since the diner is simply a free ingame item they got when buying a pack of cards to play a game it should not be an issue. Sony changes stuff all the time. They recently changed all the speeder speeds and slowed down a bunch of vehicles so that pod racer could be made "the fastest". The gun stats have changed dramatically due to the changes in weapon smith and most loot guns were tonned down to fall in line with their new system. Nerfing the diner stat was pretty much an obvious expectation because sony has capped the number of possible experimentation points one can have. So yeah the free diner they didn't win was repaired or at least they are trying to. Again nice try though.
Who is trying to spin terminology now? The loot cards are "free"? Is that seriously what you are trying to get people to wrap their mind around?
We both agree that soe/smed have admitted the card game was designed to get sony into the micro transaction market. I can quote you agreeing on this if you wish to deny it now.
So, people are exchanging money in "micro transactions" for what? Cards... nope. People could care less about the cards, they want the loot cards. Since they don't always get one, it is a random chance or in other words gambling. Yes it is gambling their money on the chance they get a loot card.
It is not something free. Something isn't free when you pay money for it. People pay a set amount of money for a booster pack with a set amount of cards. Sure one of those might be a loot card, but that doesn't make it free. That is equivalent to saying the 15th card in a nonloot card deck is free. Any one of those 15 cards could be anything. That doens't make one free in comparison to the other. It isn't like people pay less if their booster has a loot card which would make it free.
People are paying for the chance to get a loot card and in most cases a specific rare loot card. Money is exchaning hands for the random chance to get a loot card. That is the very definition of gambling.
Now you are trying to paint the loot cards as something free?!?!?!
Anyhow archangel there are few here who i think have actual personal agendas and who realy are here just to either troll or discuss. I do consider though that you are indeed one of the maybe 2 or 3 that frequent these forums with a personal agenda. I say this for more then 1 reason well two actually 1) you came at me one day using the word and that I have an agenda (again not normal conversation on a board ) 2) you get hung up on single issues and spend great amounts of energy on them okay I lied 3 3) you pretty much stated that you were on a mission of trying to help swg gamers at one point and that is when I realized that this TCG thing for you was more then just an interesting topic up to that point I just thought it was a new plaything for this forum to rant about .
Anyhow archangel there are few here who i think have actual personal agendas and who realy are here just to either troll or discuss. I do consider though that you are indeed one of the maybe 2 or 3 that frequent these forums with a personal agenda. I say this for more then 1 reason well two actually 1) you came at me one day using the word and that I have an agenda (again not normal conversation on a board ) 2) you get hung up on single issues and spend great amounts of energy on them okay I lied 3 3) you pretty much stated that you were on a mission of trying to help swg gamers at one point and that is when I realized that this TCG thing for you was more then just an interesting topic up to that point I just thought it was a new plaything for this forum to rant about .
You certainly do not have an agenda.
Everyone has an agenda.
I can agree with that, in the sense that we all want to make a point, get a message out, and hope that it might somehow influence our world.
My desire is to make sure that my agendas are out in the open. It's hidden agendas, in my experience, that muddy the waters--in addition to the projection issues that appear so rampant in this thread.
The latest projections onto me would appear to be that my question wasn't really a question, but some kind of manipulative lead in. Anyone who reads the thread I think can see that I was checking out a rumour, and that I found answers to it, and then began to comment on what I had learned. Nothing sinister there I'm afraid--just more projection. I like to check out rumours before I begin to comment on them. I don't think that's a bad thing, and to see that as sinister seems rather paranoid and delusional tbh.
Also, I was apparently denying the manipulation, but now admit it. Again, this just comes across as out of touch with reality in some way. I wasn't being manipulative, didn't deny it initially, and have not now somehow made a confession. It's like my actual comments are no longer a part of this discussion. I find this very bizarre, and it has me concerned for the poster in question--truly. I don't say that as a slight. I've read some things that really evoke concern.
I'm also apparently trying to force my values on Americans. Again this seems like more persecutory delusion (not an official diagnosis btw, just my impression). I make observations about the way SOE does business, then share my opinion. I know others have a similar viewpoint AND that the FTC is currently reviewing MMO EULAS, so I let people know where they can share their views. If people want to have input, fine. If not, that's also just fine, truly. There is nothing manipulative or coercive about this. My agenda is very clear, not hidden, and not nearly so sinister or manipulative as someone has suggested.
Also I have debated possible legal and ethical issues regarding the loot items thoroughly in another thread, months ago. My desire was not (is not) to rehash those here. This was about the apparent nerfing (on test) of an item that people gained via real money transactions with SOE. It was a new development that I felt was worthy of discussion.
Frankly, I still feel it's an important issue for this genre. If you pay real cash and obtain an item from SOE, or any other MMO company for that matter, should they retain the right to delete or modify that item at their sole discretion? My opinion is that this is unfair to the consumer. And just to be clear, sharing my opinion does not mean I'm attempting to force anyone to agree with me. I think most people get that though.
I can agree with that, in the sense that we all want to make a point, get a message out, and hope that it might somehow influence our world. My desire is to make sure that my agendas are out in the open. It's hidden agendas, in my experience, that muddy the waters--in addition to the projection issues that appear so rampant in this thread. The latest projections onto me would appear to be that my question wasn't really a question, but some kind of manipulative lead in. Anyone who reads the thread I think can see that I was checking out a rumour, and that I found answers to it, and then began to comment on what I had learned. Nothing sinister there I'm afraid--just more projection. I like to check out rumours before I begin to comment on them. I don't think that's a bad thing, and to see that as sinister seems rather paranoid and delusional tbh. Also, I was apparently denying the manipulation, but now admit it. Again, this just comes across as out of touch with reality in some way. I wasn't being manipulative, didn't deny it initially, and have not now somehow made a confession. It's like my actual comments are no longer a part of this discussion. I find this very bizarre, and it has me concerned for the poster in question--truly. I don't say that as a slight. I've read some things that really evoke concern. I'm also apparently trying to force my values on Americans. Again this seems like more persecutory delusion (not an official diagnosis btw, just my impression). I make observations about the way SOE does business, then share my opinion. I know others have a similar viewpoint AND that the FTC is currently reviewing MMO EULAS, so I let people know where they can share their views. If people want to have input, fine. If not, that's also just fine, truly. There is nothing manipulative or coercive about this. My agenda is very clear, not hidden, and not nearly so sinister or manipulative as someone has suggested. Also I have debated possible legal and ethical issues regarding the loot items thoroughly in another thread, months ago. My desire was not (is not) to rehash those here. This was about the apparent nerfing (on test) of an item that people gained via real money transactions with SOE. It was a new development that I felt was worthy of discussion. Frankly, I still feel it's an important issue for this genre. If you pay real cash and obtain an item from SOE, or any other MMO company for that matter, should they retain the right to delete or modify that item at their sole discretion? My opinion is that this is unfair to the consumer. And just to be clear, sharing my opinion does not mean I'm attempting to force anyone to agree with me. I think most people get that though.
I see you want to jump on the "your crazy bandwagon" so I wil say one last thing as you along with the other 5 inmates of this looney bin continue on your merry way for another 3 years
Find another hobby this one is rather unhealthy. You write about 20 essays per day and seem not to be able to let go. As for MMORPG's and how sony works they all work that way because they created the stuff and hold the copyrights to it and they and only they hold the rights. If you dont like that type of prepackaged play I would suggest you go find a small piece of sim in second life or active worlds or some place and make it all yourself. They do own the contents of the game and what you propose is proposterous in and of itself. You want copyright law to not exist, but at the same time want heavy regulation on mmorpg's for gambling. Either you like regulation or don't.
Dont you dare call me crazy though. I'm not the one on the forum thinking up this BS. that you spew on a daily basis. In any event as usual I can only handle so much of this utter nonsense before my eyes explode outa my head with the next crazy notion.
I would suggest you stay away from online games as you simply can't cope with changes or repairs to errors in content they create. It would be the best thing for anyone who has been unable to cope with and put aside their anger and hatred for a corporation which has long ago moved on. And on that note I think my rubbernecking is over again for awhile as I watch this spectacle continue on this particular forum.
I truly suggest you not get involved in any gaming at all. I see your beta testing a product. With your personality and inability to cope with changes to content I suggest you run quick because your sole purpose while testing that product is to help them finish something that you will never ever own and that will constantly be changing.
That is basically the underlying problem with "disgruntled swg vets". Its simply their inability and inflexibility to cope with a company changing things that need to be changed or they at least feel need to be changed. Its also earned them a reputation among gamers and its not a positive one.
One thing is truly for sure you sure have no right to call me or anyone else here paranoid or delusional when all you see around you is conspiracy.
As for agenda no I do not have one sorry never did and never will. I just find this place so incredibly umm well its like a circus side show and every once and awhile someone gets to off the wall I have to put in my two cents.
happy lobbying I wish you luck in your quest to change american law with regards to this american game. I for one can't wait to wade through more red tape when playing a tcg and when and if you do succeed I will be the first one to thank you for the inconvenience.
anyhow..
*hands back the podium*
recommence your full frontal assault on sony and its evil card game!
Dont you dare call me crazy though. I'm not the one on the forum thinking up this BS. that you spew on a daily basis. In any event as usual I can only handle so much of this utter nonsense before my eyes explode outa my head with the next crazy notion.
Crazy. Not only crazy but crazier than a shithouse rat. And for clarfication - I am describing your actions as expressed by your posts. As for the person behind the keyboard - who knows...
You simply refuse to address points in a sensical fashion. Rather, you would prefer to answer everything with a buckshot diatribe filled with off the wall directions and personal beliefs and bias that you alone accept as truth. Like I said in another thread on this board - there have been many to argue the RMT point here - from both sides. You, however, had best leave it to those people. Frankly, all you have done here is shown your own baggage and inability to comprehend the issues.
As for suggesting what someone should do with their lives - allow me to point that angle back at you. Step away from the computer, find another hobby, take a debate class and if not debate (because you claim what you do isn't debate) go to some reading comprehension. Learn that there is a world outside your opinion, that forceful prattle often fails in discussion and that you can be your own worst enemy.
Or heck, just go for a long walk in the park. It's a start.
I can agree with that, in the sense that we all want to make a point, get a message out, and hope that it might somehow influence our world. My desire is to make sure that my agendas are out in the open. It's hidden agendas, in my experience, that muddy the waters--in addition to the projection issues that appear so rampant in this thread. The latest projections onto me would appear to be that my question wasn't really a question, but some kind of manipulative lead in. Anyone who reads the thread I think can see that I was checking out a rumour, and that I found answers to it, and then began to comment on what I had learned. Nothing sinister there I'm afraid--just more projection. I like to check out rumours before I begin to comment on them. I don't think that's a bad thing, and to see that as sinister seems rather paranoid and delusional tbh. Also, I was apparently denying the manipulation, but now admit it. Again, this just comes across as out of touch with reality in some way. I wasn't being manipulative, didn't deny it initially, and have not now somehow made a confession. It's like my actual comments are no longer a part of this discussion. I find this very bizarre, and it has me concerned for the poster in question--truly. I don't say that as a slight. I've read some things that really evoke concern. I'm also apparently trying to force my values on Americans. Again this seems like more persecutory delusion (not an official diagnosis btw, just my impression). I make observations about the way SOE does business, then share my opinion. I know others have a similar viewpoint AND that the FTC is currently reviewing MMO EULAS, so I let people know where they can share their views. If people want to have input, fine. If not, that's also just fine, truly. There is nothing manipulative or coercive about this. My agenda is very clear, not hidden, and not nearly so sinister or manipulative as someone has suggested. Also I have debated possible legal and ethical issues regarding the loot items thoroughly in another thread, months ago. My desire was not (is not) to rehash those here. This was about the apparent nerfing (on test) of an item that people gained via real money transactions with SOE. It was a new development that I felt was worthy of discussion. Frankly, I still feel it's an important issue for this genre. If you pay real cash and obtain an item from SOE, or any other MMO company for that matter, should they retain the right to delete or modify that item at their sole discretion? My opinion is that this is unfair to the consumer. And just to be clear, sharing my opinion does not mean I'm attempting to force anyone to agree with me. I think most people get that though.
I see you want to jump on the "your crazy bandwagon" so I wil say one last thing as you along with the other 5 inmates of this looney bin continue on your merry way for another 3 years
Find another hobby this one is rather unhealthy. You write about 20 essays per day and seem not to be able to let go. As for MMORPG's and how sony works they all work that way because they created the stuff and hold the copyrights to it and they and only they hold the rights. If you dont like that type of prepackaged play I would suggest you go find a small piece of sim in second life or active worlds or some place and make it all yourself. They do own the contents of the game and what you propose is proposterous in and of itself. You want copyright law to not exist, but at the same time want heavy regulation on mmorpg's for gambling. Either you like regulation or don't.
Dont you dare call me crazy though. I'm not the one on the forum thinking up this BS. that you spew on a daily basis. In any event as usual I can only handle so much of this utter nonsense before my eyes explode outa my head with the next crazy notion.
I would suggest you stay away from online games as you simply can't cope with changes or repairs to errors in content they create. It would be the best thing for anyone who has been unable to cope with and put aside their anger and hatred for a corporation which has long ago moved on. And on that note I think my rubbernecking is over again for awhile as I watch this spectacle continue on this particular forum.
I truly suggest you not get involved in any gaming at all. I see your beta testing a product. With your personality and inability to cope with changes to content I suggest you run quick because your sole purpose while testing that product is to help them finish something that you will never ever own and that will constantly be changing.
That is basically the underlying problem with "disgruntled swg vets". Its simply their inability and inflexibility to cope with a company changing things that need to be changed or they at least feel need to be changed. Its also earned them a reputation among gamers and its not a positive one.
One thing is truly for sure you sure have no right to call me or anyone else here paranoid or delusional when all you see around you is conspiracy.
As for agenda no I do not have one sorry never did and never will. I just find this place so incredibly umm well its like a circus side show and every once and awhile someone gets to off the wall I have to put in my two cents.
happy lobbying I wish you luck in your quest to change american law with regards to this american game. I for one can't wait to wade through more red tape when playing a tcg and when and if you do succeed I will be the first one to thank you for the inconvenience.
anyhow..
*hands back the podium*
recommence your full frontal assault on sony and its evil card game!
I see you want to jump on the "your crazy bandwagon" so I wil say one last thing as you along with the other 5 inmates of this looney bin continue on your merry way for another 3 years <<snip>> Dont you dare call me crazy though. I'm not the one on the forum thinking up this BS. that you spew on a daily basis. In any event as usual I can only handle so much of this utter nonsense before my eyes explode outa my head with the next crazy notion.
This right here. You are such a gigantic hypocrite it is unbelievable.
You run your mouth about people calling you crazy then you turn right around and call everyone else crazy. You blame me for calling you crazy when I never once said anything even close to it.
Have you ever heard the phrase practice what you preach? Try it sometime.
Whoever it was that called you out for projecting your own faults onto others was spot on correct. You really are nothing but a truckload of senseless words and a handful of insults. Please don't let us stop you from your vacation and constantly using the word crazy which seems to really get under your skin.
I can agree with that, in the sense that we all want to make a point, get a message out, and hope that it might somehow influence our world. My desire is to make sure that my agendas are out in the open. It's hidden agendas, in my experience, that muddy the waters--in addition to the projection issues that appear so rampant in this thread. The latest projections onto me would appear to be that my question wasn't really a question, but some kind of manipulative lead in. Anyone who reads the thread I think can see that I was checking out a rumour, and that I found answers to it, and then began to comment on what I had learned. Nothing sinister there I'm afraid--just more projection. I like to check out rumours before I begin to comment on them. I don't think that's a bad thing, and to see that as sinister seems rather paranoid and delusional tbh. Also, I was apparently denying the manipulation, but now admit it. Again, this just comes across as out of touch with reality in some way. I wasn't being manipulative, didn't deny it initially, and have not now somehow made a confession. It's like my actual comments are no longer a part of this discussion. I find this very bizarre, and it has me concerned for the poster in question--truly. I don't say that as a slight. I've read some things that really evoke concern. I'm also apparently trying to force my values on Americans. Again this seems like more persecutory delusion (not an official diagnosis btw, just my impression). I make observations about the way SOE does business, then share my opinion. I know others have a similar viewpoint AND that the FTC is currently reviewing MMO EULAS, so I let people know where they can share their views. If people want to have input, fine. If not, that's also just fine, truly. There is nothing manipulative or coercive about this. My agenda is very clear, not hidden, and not nearly so sinister or manipulative as someone has suggested. Also I have debated possible legal and ethical issues regarding the loot items thoroughly in another thread, months ago. My desire was not (is not) to rehash those here. This was about the apparent nerfing (on test) of an item that people gained via real money transactions with SOE. It was a new development that I felt was worthy of discussion. Frankly, I still feel it's an important issue for this genre. If you pay real cash and obtain an item from SOE, or any other MMO company for that matter, should they retain the right to delete or modify that item at their sole discretion? My opinion is that this is unfair to the consumer. And just to be clear, sharing my opinion does not mean I'm attempting to force anyone to agree with me. I think most people get that though.
I see you want to jump on the "your crazy bandwagon" so I wil say one last thing as you along with the other 5 inmates of this looney bin continue on your merry way for another 3 years
Find another hobby this one is rather unhealthy. You write about 20 essays per day and seem not to be able to let go. As for MMORPG's and how sony works they all work that way because they created the stuff and hold the copyrights to it and they and only they hold the rights. If you dont like that type of prepackaged play I would suggest you go find a small piece of sim in second life or active worlds or some place and make it all yourself. They do own the contents of the game and what you propose is proposterous in and of itself. You want copyright law to not exist, but at the same time want heavy regulation on mmorpg's for gambling. Either you like regulation or don't.
Dont you dare call me crazy though. I'm not the one on the forum thinking up this BS. that you spew on a daily basis. In any event as usual I can only handle so much of this utter nonsense before my eyes explode outa my head with the next crazy notion.
I would suggest you stay away from online games as you simply can't cope with changes or repairs to errors in content they create. It would be the best thing for anyone who has been unable to cope with and put aside their anger and hatred for a corporation which has long ago moved on. And on that note I think my rubbernecking is over again for awhile as I watch this spectacle continue on this particular forum.
I truly suggest you not get involved in any gaming at all. I see your beta testing a product. With your personality and inability to cope with changes to content I suggest you run quick because your sole purpose while testing that product is to help them finish something that you will never ever own and that will constantly be changing.
That is basically the underlying problem with "disgruntled swg vets". Its simply their inability and inflexibility to cope with a company changing things that need to be changed or they at least feel need to be changed. Its also earned them a reputation among gamers and its not a positive one.
One thing is truly for sure you sure have no right to call me or anyone else here paranoid or delusional when all you see around you is conspiracy.
As for agenda no I do not have one sorry never did and never will. I just find this place so incredibly umm well its like a circus side show and every once and awhile someone gets to off the wall I have to put in my two cents.
happy lobbying I wish you luck in your quest to change american law with regards to this american game. I for one can't wait to wade through more red tape when playing a tcg and when and if you do succeed I will be the first one to thank you for the inconvenience.
anyhow..
*hands back the podium*
recommence your full frontal assault on sony and its evil card game!
Holy crap... The stuff i read on here is even better then on SWG forums when it comes to argueing. If you buying the packs to play the card game then maybe it shouldnt be considered gambling, thou most that buy those use it for the expressed purpose of getting the rare loot cards for ingame items to either enjoy themselves or sell off to players ingame. The fact that they are making it that no other way to get those items other then either relying on the cards you get with your sub or to have a decent chance most players have to buy the cards or buy from players buying the cards. Its another form of gambling and changing anything after the fact you won something is really low even for swg. It would be like saying you won this nice Mustang then next day going outside to find its been replaced with another vehicle with a lower starting price. Your taking away from its value whether fixing something unintended or not thats whats happening.
Now im not to big on the whole way most mmorpg's are (pretty much cause of a eula that force you to agree with) allowed to change anything they want at a drop of a hat. Certainly I would think most wouldnt like that one day you could wake up and see that your favorite character has been changed to something you dont like or can been totally deleted whether it be the character or just what the character was(Ranger CH Riflemen and so on).
Do i think its alittle pityful that theres enough of an outcry that US officials are being called upon to look into these matters, HELL YEAH. But being a precu vet i do understand how having something you worked hard for just totally ripped away can tick someone off. Thats not even goin into the fact that these companies can totally denied your ability to use the property that youve been renting as some have said it by cuttin off service all together.
Every company should be held accountable in some way shape and form and MMo's are no different. These companies should care and take steps to ensure they do not rip off or leave customers feeling as though they have been just like any store, bank or business in the real world has to do.
I can agree with that, in the sense that we all want to make a point, get a message out, and hope that it might somehow influence our world. My desire is to make sure that my agendas are out in the open. It's hidden agendas, in my experience, that muddy the waters--in addition to the projection issues that appear so rampant in this thread. The latest projections onto me would appear to be that my question wasn't really a question, but some kind of manipulative lead in. Anyone who reads the thread I think can see that I was checking out a rumour, and that I found answers to it, and then began to comment on what I had learned. Nothing sinister there I'm afraid--just more projection. I like to check out rumours before I begin to comment on them. I don't think that's a bad thing, and to see that as sinister seems rather paranoid and delusional tbh. Also, I was apparently denying the manipulation, but now admit it. Again, this just comes across as out of touch with reality in some way. I wasn't being manipulative, didn't deny it initially, and have not now somehow made a confession. It's like my actual comments are no longer a part of this discussion. I find this very bizarre, and it has me concerned for the poster in question--truly. I don't say that as a slight. I've read some things that really evoke concern. I'm also apparently trying to force my values on Americans. Again this seems like more persecutory delusion (not an official diagnosis btw, just my impression). I make observations about the way SOE does business, then share my opinion. I know others have a similar viewpoint AND that the FTC is currently reviewing MMO EULAS, so I let people know where they can share their views. If people want to have input, fine. If not, that's also just fine, truly. There is nothing manipulative or coercive about this. My agenda is very clear, not hidden, and not nearly so sinister or manipulative as someone has suggested. Also I have debated possible legal and ethical issues regarding the loot items thoroughly in another thread, months ago. My desire was not (is not) to rehash those here. This was about the apparent nerfing (on test) of an item that people gained via real money transactions with SOE. It was a new development that I felt was worthy of discussion. Frankly, I still feel it's an important issue for this genre. If you pay real cash and obtain an item from SOE, or any other MMO company for that matter, should they retain the right to delete or modify that item at their sole discretion? My opinion is that this is unfair to the consumer. And just to be clear, sharing my opinion does not mean I'm attempting to force anyone to agree with me. I think most people get that though.
I see you want to jump on the "your crazy bandwagon" so I wil say one last thing as you along with the other 5 inmates of this looney bin continue on your merry way for another 3 years
Find another hobby this one is rather unhealthy. You write about 20 essays per day and seem not to be able to let go. As for MMORPG's and how sony works they all work that way because they created the stuff and hold the copyrights to it and they and only they hold the rights. If you dont like that type of prepackaged play I would suggest you go find a small piece of sim in second life or active worlds or some place and make it all yourself. They do own the contents of the game and what you propose is proposterous in and of itself. You want copyright law to not exist, but at the same time want heavy regulation on mmorpg's for gambling. Either you like regulation or don't.
Dont you dare call me crazy though. I'm not the one on the forum thinking up this BS. that you spew on a daily basis. In any event as usual I can only handle so much of this utter nonsense before my eyes explode outa my head with the next crazy notion.
I would suggest you stay away from online games as you simply can't cope with changes or repairs to errors in content they create. It would be the best thing for anyone who has been unable to cope with and put aside their anger and hatred for a corporation which has long ago moved on. And on that note I think my rubbernecking is over again for awhile as I watch this spectacle continue on this particular forum.
I truly suggest you not get involved in any gaming at all. I see your beta testing a product. With your personality and inability to cope with changes to content I suggest you run quick because your sole purpose while testing that product is to help them finish something that you will never ever own and that will constantly be changing.
That is basically the underlying problem with "disgruntled swg vets". Its simply their inability and inflexibility to cope with a company changing things that need to be changed or they at least feel need to be changed. Its also earned them a reputation among gamers and its not a positive one.
One thing is truly for sure you sure have no right to call me or anyone else here paranoid or delusional when all you see around you is conspiracy.
As for agenda no I do not have one sorry never did and never will. I just find this place so incredibly umm well its like a circus side show and every once and awhile someone gets to off the wall I have to put in my two cents.
happy lobbying I wish you luck in your quest to change american law with regards to this american game. I for one can't wait to wade through more red tape when playing a tcg and when and if you do succeed I will be the first one to thank you for the inconvenience.
anyhow..
*hands back the podium*
recommence your full frontal assault on sony and its evil card game!
Holy crap... The stuff i read on here is even better then on SWG forums when it comes to argueing. If you buying the packs to play the card game then maybe it shouldnt be considered gambling, thou most that buy those use it for the expressed purpose of getting the rare loot cards for ingame items to either enjoy themselves or sell off to players ingame. The fact that they are making it that no other way to get those items other then either relying on the cards you get with your sub or to have a decent chance most players have to buy the cards or buy from players buying the cards. Its another form of gambling and changing anything after the fact you won something is really low even for swg. It would be like saying you won this nice Mustang then next day going outside to find its been replaced with another vehicle with a lower starting price. Your taking away from its value whether fixing something unintended or not thats whats happening.
Now im not to big on the whole way most mmorpg's are (pretty much cause of a eula that force you to agree with) allowed to change anything they want at a drop of a hat. Certainly I would think most wouldnt like that one day you could wake up and see that your favorite character has been changed to something you dont like or can been totally deleted whether it be the character or just what the character was(Ranger CH Riflemen and so on).
Do i think its alittle pityful that theres enough of an outcry that US officials are being called upon to look into these matters, HELL YEAH. But being a precu vet i do understand how having something you worked hard for just totally ripped away can tick someone off. Thats not even goin into the fact that these companies can totally denied your ability to use the property that youve been renting as some have said it by cuttin off service all together.
Every company should be held accountable in some way shape and form and MMo's are no different. These companies should care and take steps to ensure they do not rip off or leave customers feeling as though they have been just like any store, bank or business in the real world has to do.
In many ways SOE is being held accountable...via loss of subscriptions/market share and poor industry reputation.
Comments
Hrm want me to dig up all the threads you made supporting the fact that you want to prove that the TCG is illegal and that people are gambling for a diner? because you did use the word win not me. So dont play innocent because there are a good 2 dozen threads here created by you stating that you consider that getting a free diner and "winning" it is gambling. I'm sorry but threads kinda go off topic all the time. When you remove the word "win" from your jargon plus all the other things you have saidi n this thread maybe then I wil believe you and not before.
Dont tempt me because I have a photographic memory that is off the chart and can find the info in a very short time on this forum.
Perhaps if you stopped referring to things as "winning" when you get a free toy this issue would not have popped up, but the fact of the matter is that is has and about 3/4 of the discussion on this threas is about legality.
As for benevolent another strange word, but no I dont consider you benevolent at all. I do consider that you have just flip flopped as a few pages back you were trying to get people to go to the FTC and complain all of a sudden your not?
Um, I didn't say "benevolent." You're doing it again. Your photographic memory seems to remember the opposite of what was actually said.
Also, I posted information that the FTC is currently looking at MMO EULAs. I read this in an interesting legal forum a few days ago. If anyone wants to have input, I provided a link, since it's now on their radar.
Since this forum is for MMO players, and the FTC is looking at MMO EULAs, this made a lot of sense to me. If people don't like some MMO EULAs, now is the time to speak up. If you like MMO EULAs just fine, no one is pressuring you to say or do anything.
Also, this is an international matter, so yes, I think it's okay for me to comment on it. Suggesting that I should remain silent because of my nationality is frankly offensive.
P.S. If I was to accurately summarize my thoughts in this thread they would be:
-nerfing RMT items that people just won seems like a bad idea (this refers to people who purchased TCG booster packs hoping for a particular loot item, and they were successful in obtaining it),
-hey did you know that apparently the FTC is looking at MMO EULAs? If you want to have input into this process, now would be a good time; it's apparently on the radar,
-you may also find it interesting to know that European officials are looking at methods of regulating games of chance within MMOs, fyi.
That's it. Any other message or meaning never came from me, it was projected onto my comments for reasons outside my awareness, which as I said, makes meaningful discussion very challenging.
P.P.S. Lol, okay now I've just noticed you're making more absurd accusations. Yes I think I'll stop trying to share the light of reason. You may now feel free to have the last word if you like, sharing information and clarifying my meaning doesn't appear to be helpful. C'est la vie. I do wish you enjoyment in your MMO of choice btw, even if I don't agree with the way it's run at times
Originally posted by ArcAngel3
Um, I didn't say "benevolent." You're doing it again. Your photographic memory seems to remember the opposite of what was actually said.
Also, I posted information that the FTC is currently looking at MMO EULAs. I read this in an interesting legal forum a few days ago. If anyone wants to have input, I provided a link, since it's now on their radar.
Since this forum is for MMO players, and the FTC is looking at MMO EULAs, this made a lot of sense to me. If people don't like some MMO EULAs, now is the time to speak up. If you like MMO EULAs just fine, no one is pressuring you to say or do anything.
Also, this is an international matter, so yes, I think it's okay for me to comment on it. Suggesting that I should remain silent because of my nationality is frankly offensive.
P.S. If I was to accurately summarize my thoughts in this thread they would be:
-nerfing RMT items that people just won seems like a bad idea (this refers to people who purchased TCG booster packs hoping for a particular loot item, and they were successful in obtaining it),
-hey did you know that apparently the FTC is looking at MMO EULAs? If you want to have input into this process, now would be a good time; it's apparently on the radar,
-you may also find it interesting to know that European officials are looking at methods of regulating games of chance within MMOs, fyi.
That's it. Any other message or meaning never came from me, it was projected onto my comments for reasons outside my awareness, which as I said, makes meaningful discussion very challenging.
-------------------------
took the quote out this board hates my browser again. ..actualy it was edited here is the original i was replying too..
yeah i misread it the word sorry. its still a strange word but whatever....
Back to the actual topic
you started this thread with a question a simple one at that, but it was indeed a lead in (at least your not denying it now). After you go your answer you and only you drove the thread in the directiony you intended and your sole purpose since the introduction of this particular TCG (not any other one as usual which is why I consider what your doing to be more then a bit inappropirate) as illegal. You are again now back to trying to present it as fact that what sony is doing is not legal. Again I will reitterate it can't be illegal if there is no law to cover it and from what I have seen you post you have proven to me only that there is no law to cover it so it can't possibly be illegal. Since sony is one of a veritable plethora of companies that is doing this and this particular gimmic is as old as the hills its more then a bit of a stretch for it suddenly to be illegal. You may find this type of business unethical and that is your perogative, but to then turn around and call what you find as bad business ethics to be a point of law and illegal is over the top. That is all I have to really say on the issue. You have spent a great deal of time on this issue so pretending that you have not its impossible in fact I can't think off the top of my head of any other single poster on this forum posting threads trying to prove that what sony is doing is gambling and illegal. Its really a problem for you and you do feel a need to try to impose your value system on others around here and have been getting more adamant and using stronger and stronger words on the issue for awhile. I personally think that trying to make the american system anymore complicated and convoluted then it really is is folly its already teetering on the brink of imploding in on itself as americans try to solve everything with legal representation of some sort.
If you find it unethical just take your wallet and go elsewhere, but at this point in time as a person who seems to have not played this game for litterally years what your doing can be considered to be medling. I personally have an issue with people who take on crusades over issues that they personally are not involved and for more then one reason. You made a post awhile back about gamers playing this game not asking for your help or seeming to want it. You post was correct on that issue then and it is now. As a gamer that actually finds that I enjoy the TCG's after playing them now since I got to look at one for free (well two really as the on in eq2 has been around for awhile and I have started playing that one as well) I will tell you right now and mirror what others who are playing them are saying. They are not illegal and we would appreciate it if you would just leave us alone.
Thankfully for me and others your doing this on a forum that doesn't really get taken very seriously and the list of supporters i can count on one hand. Someone else made a post in the early stages of this thread and I think you should take his advice.
Anyhow now that in my mind anyhow this is settled and i have said what I felt like saying and feel that its quite apparent that your not in denial because at last post I saw. Have fun but realize that no not everyone is in agreement with you in your assessment and its not just me that has stated so and that the ones actually truly playing the TCG dont want to have to deal with more red tape then already exists and let me tell you that as a 'foreigner" playing these american TCG's the red tape I have to go through right now with sony in order to just play in a tournament and the sommersaults I am having to do are not fun. Oddly enough in all your posts on this you seem to ignore it when sony does in fact use the legal red tape necessary which I find even more strange. You see they do have something which is clearly heavily regulated right now by the goverment but your ignoring all that red tape they pay attention to. Rest assured that any law that does exist in relation to what sony does its being made painfully obvious to foreigners just want a pain in the rear they are as we try to negotiate them.
Anyhow have fun with this. I look forward to the day when I have to negotiate more red tape in order to play an american video game WOOHOO!
by the way I'm from the same country as you
edit you edited the thread twice and now your back to denying it. Its not an accusation its a reality I remember clearly the post you made about wanting to help your friends in swg "occasionaly not get the dirty end of the stick" and then speaking of why are you trying to help people who dont want your help
bottom line good luck been nice watching it unfold, but denying it will get you knowhere. I'm not the only one who sees it just the one most willing to indulge this small crowd for more then a single post a month.
Anyhow archangel there are few here who i think have actual personal agendas and who realy are here just to either troll or discuss. I do consider though that you are indeed one of the maybe 2 or 3 that frequent these forums with a personal agenda.
I say this for more then 1 reason well two actually
1) you came at me one day using the word and that I have an agenda (again not normal conversation on a board )
2) you get hung up on single issues and spend great amounts of energy on them
okay I lied 3
3) you pretty much stated that you were on a mission of trying to help swg gamers at one point and that is when I realized that this TCG thing for you was more then just an interesting topic up to that point I just thought it was a new plaything for this forum to rant about .
You certainly do not have an agenda.
--------
Ten Golden Rules Of Videogame Fanboyism
"SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor
I understand that you love to troll that is all I understand. I understand that everyone in this thread is in fact a human being and that there is a lot of skimming going on however this is special for ummax in that you love to point out when I do it but never ever point out when anyone else does it . There is a reason for that and we both know what that is. It does not change the fact that at least 3 times in this thread I have been misinterpreted and that you are not pointing out anyone else doing it only ummax. I don't see you going at archangel or the other one daffodil for misreading only ummax. There is a reason for that though and until you level the playing field or get borred of toying with ummax for your own personal pleasure this will continue because you want it to.
So if you insult ummax be fair and insult anyone else who has done this here because I'm not the only one just the one you want to mess with. We both know why that is, but can you even admit it to yourself?
Daff and Arch actually make sense and make coherrent arguments. You however do not. I am completely convinced though that you are not ignorant. So you got that going for you.
--------
Ten Golden Rules Of Videogame Fanboyism
"SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor
Seriously, are you now refering to yourself in 3rd person perspective?
Well, kefkah says that is A-OK! He is enjoying this thread thoroughly despite the fact that the orginal points of the argument have been lost in a sea of projection and bias. Why, kefkah even thinks that Archangel still should start his own blog called MMOLawdog or the like where he can hash out some of his finer points without having to deal with "Quill" like rants laden with weak arguments that are propped up with spite in order to make them stronger.
And finally, kefkah now declares this day 3rd Person Perspective Day! Everyone must post in such a manner as to honor this innovative approach to debate.
This is exactly what I am talking about. I never called you nut or crazy. Care to show me where I did? Some other people may have called you crazy and here you are lumping me into the masses. See what I mean about entering a conversation with a closed mind and skimming posts?
Either you don't understand some of the terms I am using or you are demonstrating extactly what I have been saying.
You say everyone here skims, but you seem to be the only person who can't keep simple facts straight. You constantly blame people for things that others said. Just like you quote people for saying things they never said. -Honestly you are all over the map with your accusations and references. Most of them don't make any sense and the ones that are coherent are typically incorrect.
As for not addressing me, so what. This is a public forum and last I checked this topic didn't specifically start out addressing you, but here you are posting. If you don't want to share in your discussion then send someone an email. Otherwise learn to live with the rest of the posters here and their opinions.
Now you want to take offence with someones terminology? Ok, I will address that in another post.
no one won anything they got a free loot card when they bought a package of playing cards. Nice try though. I commend you for your staying power, but honestly the free diner can and will be nerfed if need be. They didnt gamble for it or win it in any way shape of form.
Since the original diner was not intended to be +5 because sony in fact has made the effort to cap experimentation points anyone with a brain would realize that eventually sony would have seen it and repaired the issue. The reality is that stuff moves way to fast on their test servers and they really dont beta test any longer and so they missed the +5 and they keep fiddling around to deal with it and they keep changing their mind, but since the diner is simply a free ingame item they got when buying a pack of cards to play a game it should not be an issue. Sony changes stuff all the time. They recently changed all the speeder speeds and slowed down a bunch of vehicles so that pod racer could be made "the fastest". The gun stats have changed dramatically due to the changes in weapon smith and most loot guns were tonned down to fall in line with their new system. Nerfing the diner stat was pretty much an obvious expectation because sony has capped the number of possible experimentation points one can have. So yeah the free diner they didn't win was repaired or at least they are trying to. Again nice try though.
Who is trying to spin terminology now? The loot cards are "free"? Is that seriously what you are trying to get people to wrap their mind around?
We both agree that soe/smed have admitted the card game was designed to get sony into the micro transaction market. I can quote you agreeing on this if you wish to deny it now.
So, people are exchanging money in "micro transactions" for what? Cards... nope. People could care less about the cards, they want the loot cards. Since they don't always get one, it is a random chance or in other words gambling. Yes it is gambling their money on the chance they get a loot card.
It is not something free. Something isn't free when you pay money for it. People pay a set amount of money for a booster pack with a set amount of cards. Sure one of those might be a loot card, but that doesn't make it free. That is equivalent to saying the 15th card in a nonloot card deck is free. Any one of those 15 cards could be anything. That doens't make one free in comparison to the other. It isn't like people pay less if their booster has a loot card which would make it free.
People are paying for the chance to get a loot card and in most cases a specific rare loot card. Money is exchaning hands for the random chance to get a loot card. That is the very definition of gambling.
Now you are trying to paint the loot cards as something free?!?!?!
You certainly do not have an agenda.
Everyone has an agenda.
fishermage.blogspot.com
You certainly do not have an agenda.
Everyone has an agenda.
I can agree with that, in the sense that we all want to make a point, get a message out, and hope that it might somehow influence our world.
My desire is to make sure that my agendas are out in the open. It's hidden agendas, in my experience, that muddy the waters--in addition to the projection issues that appear so rampant in this thread.
The latest projections onto me would appear to be that my question wasn't really a question, but some kind of manipulative lead in. Anyone who reads the thread I think can see that I was checking out a rumour, and that I found answers to it, and then began to comment on what I had learned. Nothing sinister there I'm afraid--just more projection. I like to check out rumours before I begin to comment on them. I don't think that's a bad thing, and to see that as sinister seems rather paranoid and delusional tbh.
Also, I was apparently denying the manipulation, but now admit it. Again, this just comes across as out of touch with reality in some way. I wasn't being manipulative, didn't deny it initially, and have not now somehow made a confession. It's like my actual comments are no longer a part of this discussion. I find this very bizarre, and it has me concerned for the poster in question--truly. I don't say that as a slight. I've read some things that really evoke concern.
I'm also apparently trying to force my values on Americans. Again this seems like more persecutory delusion (not an official diagnosis btw, just my impression). I make observations about the way SOE does business, then share my opinion. I know others have a similar viewpoint AND that the FTC is currently reviewing MMO EULAS, so I let people know where they can share their views. If people want to have input, fine. If not, that's also just fine, truly. There is nothing manipulative or coercive about this. My agenda is very clear, not hidden, and not nearly so sinister or manipulative as someone has suggested.
Also I have debated possible legal and ethical issues regarding the loot items thoroughly in another thread, months ago. My desire was not (is not) to rehash those here. This was about the apparent nerfing (on test) of an item that people gained via real money transactions with SOE. It was a new development that I felt was worthy of discussion.
Frankly, I still feel it's an important issue for this genre. If you pay real cash and obtain an item from SOE, or any other MMO company for that matter, should they retain the right to delete or modify that item at their sole discretion? My opinion is that this is unfair to the consumer. And just to be clear, sharing my opinion does not mean I'm attempting to force anyone to agree with me. I think most people get that though.
I see you want to jump on the "your crazy bandwagon" so I wil say one last thing as you along with the other 5 inmates of this looney bin continue on your merry way for another 3 years
Find another hobby this one is rather unhealthy. You write about 20 essays per day and seem not to be able to let go. As for MMORPG's and how sony works they all work that way because they created the stuff and hold the copyrights to it and they and only they hold the rights. If you dont like that type of prepackaged play I would suggest you go find a small piece of sim in second life or active worlds or some place and make it all yourself. They do own the contents of the game and what you propose is proposterous in and of itself. You want copyright law to not exist, but at the same time want heavy regulation on mmorpg's for gambling. Either you like regulation or don't.
Dont you dare call me crazy though. I'm not the one on the forum thinking up this BS. that you spew on a daily basis. In any event as usual I can only handle so much of this utter nonsense before my eyes explode outa my head with the next crazy notion.
I would suggest you stay away from online games as you simply can't cope with changes or repairs to errors in content they create. It would be the best thing for anyone who has been unable to cope with and put aside their anger and hatred for a corporation which has long ago moved on. And on that note I think my rubbernecking is over again for awhile as I watch this spectacle continue on this particular forum.
I truly suggest you not get involved in any gaming at all. I see your beta testing a product. With your personality and inability to cope with changes to content I suggest you run quick because your sole purpose while testing that product is to help them finish something that you will never ever own and that will constantly be changing.
That is basically the underlying problem with "disgruntled swg vets". Its simply their inability and inflexibility to cope with a company changing things that need to be changed or they at least feel need to be changed. Its also earned them a reputation among gamers and its not a positive one.
One thing is truly for sure you sure have no right to call me or anyone else here paranoid or delusional when all you see around you is conspiracy.
As for agenda no I do not have one sorry never did and never will. I just find this place so incredibly umm well its like a circus side show and every once and awhile someone gets to off the wall I have to put in my two cents.
happy lobbying I wish you luck in your quest to change american law with regards to this american game. I for one can't wait to wade through more red tape when playing a tcg and when and if you do succeed I will be the first one to thank you for the inconvenience.
anyhow..
*hands back the podium*
recommence your full frontal assault on sony and its evil card game!
Crazy. Not only crazy but crazier than a shithouse rat. And for clarfication - I am describing your actions as expressed by your posts. As for the person behind the keyboard - who knows...
You simply refuse to address points in a sensical fashion. Rather, you would prefer to answer everything with a buckshot diatribe filled with off the wall directions and personal beliefs and bias that you alone accept as truth. Like I said in another thread on this board - there have been many to argue the RMT point here - from both sides. You, however, had best leave it to those people. Frankly, all you have done here is shown your own baggage and inability to comprehend the issues.
As for suggesting what someone should do with their lives - allow me to point that angle back at you. Step away from the computer, find another hobby, take a debate class and if not debate (because you claim what you do isn't debate) go to some reading comprehension. Learn that there is a world outside your opinion, that forceful prattle often fails in discussion and that you can be your own worst enemy.
Or heck, just go for a long walk in the park. It's a start.
Edited out of common sense. Kef.
I see you want to jump on the "your crazy bandwagon" so I wil say one last thing as you along with the other 5 inmates of this looney bin continue on your merry way for another 3 years
Find another hobby this one is rather unhealthy. You write about 20 essays per day and seem not to be able to let go. As for MMORPG's and how sony works they all work that way because they created the stuff and hold the copyrights to it and they and only they hold the rights. If you dont like that type of prepackaged play I would suggest you go find a small piece of sim in second life or active worlds or some place and make it all yourself. They do own the contents of the game and what you propose is proposterous in and of itself. You want copyright law to not exist, but at the same time want heavy regulation on mmorpg's for gambling. Either you like regulation or don't.
Dont you dare call me crazy though. I'm not the one on the forum thinking up this BS. that you spew on a daily basis. In any event as usual I can only handle so much of this utter nonsense before my eyes explode outa my head with the next crazy notion.
I would suggest you stay away from online games as you simply can't cope with changes or repairs to errors in content they create. It would be the best thing for anyone who has been unable to cope with and put aside their anger and hatred for a corporation which has long ago moved on. And on that note I think my rubbernecking is over again for awhile as I watch this spectacle continue on this particular forum.
I truly suggest you not get involved in any gaming at all. I see your beta testing a product. With your personality and inability to cope with changes to content I suggest you run quick because your sole purpose while testing that product is to help them finish something that you will never ever own and that will constantly be changing.
That is basically the underlying problem with "disgruntled swg vets". Its simply their inability and inflexibility to cope with a company changing things that need to be changed or they at least feel need to be changed. Its also earned them a reputation among gamers and its not a positive one.
One thing is truly for sure you sure have no right to call me or anyone else here paranoid or delusional when all you see around you is conspiracy.
As for agenda no I do not have one sorry never did and never will. I just find this place so incredibly umm well its like a circus side show and every once and awhile someone gets to off the wall I have to put in my two cents.
happy lobbying I wish you luck in your quest to change american law with regards to this american game. I for one can't wait to wade through more red tape when playing a tcg and when and if you do succeed I will be the first one to thank you for the inconvenience.
anyhow..
*hands back the podium*
recommence your full frontal assault on sony and its evil card game!
You accuse Arch of writing essay's? LOL!
--------
Ten Golden Rules Of Videogame Fanboyism
"SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor
Good point. Changed it after realizing that I got drug down to that level.
Thanks for calling me on it, Sookster54
This right here. You are such a gigantic hypocrite it is unbelievable.
You run your mouth about people calling you crazy then you turn right around and call everyone else crazy. You blame me for calling you crazy when I never once said anything even close to it.
Have you ever heard the phrase practice what you preach? Try it sometime.
Whoever it was that called you out for projecting your own faults onto others was spot on correct. You really are nothing but a truckload of senseless words and a handful of insults. Please don't let us stop you from your vacation and constantly using the word crazy which seems to really get under your skin.
I see you want to jump on the "your crazy bandwagon" so I wil say one last thing as you along with the other 5 inmates of this looney bin continue on your merry way for another 3 years
Find another hobby this one is rather unhealthy. You write about 20 essays per day and seem not to be able to let go. As for MMORPG's and how sony works they all work that way because they created the stuff and hold the copyrights to it and they and only they hold the rights. If you dont like that type of prepackaged play I would suggest you go find a small piece of sim in second life or active worlds or some place and make it all yourself. They do own the contents of the game and what you propose is proposterous in and of itself. You want copyright law to not exist, but at the same time want heavy regulation on mmorpg's for gambling. Either you like regulation or don't.
Dont you dare call me crazy though. I'm not the one on the forum thinking up this BS. that you spew on a daily basis. In any event as usual I can only handle so much of this utter nonsense before my eyes explode outa my head with the next crazy notion.
I would suggest you stay away from online games as you simply can't cope with changes or repairs to errors in content they create. It would be the best thing for anyone who has been unable to cope with and put aside their anger and hatred for a corporation which has long ago moved on. And on that note I think my rubbernecking is over again for awhile as I watch this spectacle continue on this particular forum.
I truly suggest you not get involved in any gaming at all. I see your beta testing a product. With your personality and inability to cope with changes to content I suggest you run quick because your sole purpose while testing that product is to help them finish something that you will never ever own and that will constantly be changing.
That is basically the underlying problem with "disgruntled swg vets". Its simply their inability and inflexibility to cope with a company changing things that need to be changed or they at least feel need to be changed. Its also earned them a reputation among gamers and its not a positive one.
One thing is truly for sure you sure have no right to call me or anyone else here paranoid or delusional when all you see around you is conspiracy.
As for agenda no I do not have one sorry never did and never will. I just find this place so incredibly umm well its like a circus side show and every once and awhile someone gets to off the wall I have to put in my two cents.
happy lobbying I wish you luck in your quest to change american law with regards to this american game. I for one can't wait to wade through more red tape when playing a tcg and when and if you do succeed I will be the first one to thank you for the inconvenience.
anyhow..
*hands back the podium*
recommence your full frontal assault on sony and its evil card game!
Holy crap... The stuff i read on here is even better then on SWG forums when it comes to argueing. If you buying the packs to play the card game then maybe it shouldnt be considered gambling, thou most that buy those use it for the expressed purpose of getting the rare loot cards for ingame items to either enjoy themselves or sell off to players ingame. The fact that they are making it that no other way to get those items other then either relying on the cards you get with your sub or to have a decent chance most players have to buy the cards or buy from players buying the cards. Its another form of gambling and changing anything after the fact you won something is really low even for swg. It would be like saying you won this nice Mustang then next day going outside to find its been replaced with another vehicle with a lower starting price. Your taking away from its value whether fixing something unintended or not thats whats happening.
Now im not to big on the whole way most mmorpg's are (pretty much cause of a eula that force you to agree with) allowed to change anything they want at a drop of a hat. Certainly I would think most wouldnt like that one day you could wake up and see that your favorite character has been changed to something you dont like or can been totally deleted whether it be the character or just what the character was(Ranger CH Riflemen and so on).
Do i think its alittle pityful that theres enough of an outcry that US officials are being called upon to look into these matters, HELL YEAH. But being a precu vet i do understand how having something you worked hard for just totally ripped away can tick someone off. Thats not even goin into the fact that these companies can totally denied your ability to use the property that youve been renting as some have said it by cuttin off service all together.
Every company should be held accountable in some way shape and form and MMo's are no different. These companies should care and take steps to ensure they do not rip off or leave customers feeling as though they have been just like any store, bank or business in the real world has to do.
I see you want to jump on the "your crazy bandwagon" so I wil say one last thing as you along with the other 5 inmates of this looney bin continue on your merry way for another 3 years
Find another hobby this one is rather unhealthy. You write about 20 essays per day and seem not to be able to let go. As for MMORPG's and how sony works they all work that way because they created the stuff and hold the copyrights to it and they and only they hold the rights. If you dont like that type of prepackaged play I would suggest you go find a small piece of sim in second life or active worlds or some place and make it all yourself. They do own the contents of the game and what you propose is proposterous in and of itself. You want copyright law to not exist, but at the same time want heavy regulation on mmorpg's for gambling. Either you like regulation or don't.
Dont you dare call me crazy though. I'm not the one on the forum thinking up this BS. that you spew on a daily basis. In any event as usual I can only handle so much of this utter nonsense before my eyes explode outa my head with the next crazy notion.
I would suggest you stay away from online games as you simply can't cope with changes or repairs to errors in content they create. It would be the best thing for anyone who has been unable to cope with and put aside their anger and hatred for a corporation which has long ago moved on. And on that note I think my rubbernecking is over again for awhile as I watch this spectacle continue on this particular forum.
I truly suggest you not get involved in any gaming at all. I see your beta testing a product. With your personality and inability to cope with changes to content I suggest you run quick because your sole purpose while testing that product is to help them finish something that you will never ever own and that will constantly be changing.
That is basically the underlying problem with "disgruntled swg vets". Its simply their inability and inflexibility to cope with a company changing things that need to be changed or they at least feel need to be changed. Its also earned them a reputation among gamers and its not a positive one.
One thing is truly for sure you sure have no right to call me or anyone else here paranoid or delusional when all you see around you is conspiracy.
As for agenda no I do not have one sorry never did and never will. I just find this place so incredibly umm well its like a circus side show and every once and awhile someone gets to off the wall I have to put in my two cents.
happy lobbying I wish you luck in your quest to change american law with regards to this american game. I for one can't wait to wade through more red tape when playing a tcg and when and if you do succeed I will be the first one to thank you for the inconvenience.
anyhow..
*hands back the podium*
recommence your full frontal assault on sony and its evil card game!
Holy crap... The stuff i read on here is even better then on SWG forums when it comes to argueing. If you buying the packs to play the card game then maybe it shouldnt be considered gambling, thou most that buy those use it for the expressed purpose of getting the rare loot cards for ingame items to either enjoy themselves or sell off to players ingame. The fact that they are making it that no other way to get those items other then either relying on the cards you get with your sub or to have a decent chance most players have to buy the cards or buy from players buying the cards. Its another form of gambling and changing anything after the fact you won something is really low even for swg. It would be like saying you won this nice Mustang then next day going outside to find its been replaced with another vehicle with a lower starting price. Your taking away from its value whether fixing something unintended or not thats whats happening.
Now im not to big on the whole way most mmorpg's are (pretty much cause of a eula that force you to agree with) allowed to change anything they want at a drop of a hat. Certainly I would think most wouldnt like that one day you could wake up and see that your favorite character has been changed to something you dont like or can been totally deleted whether it be the character or just what the character was(Ranger CH Riflemen and so on).
Do i think its alittle pityful that theres enough of an outcry that US officials are being called upon to look into these matters, HELL YEAH. But being a precu vet i do understand how having something you worked hard for just totally ripped away can tick someone off. Thats not even goin into the fact that these companies can totally denied your ability to use the property that youve been renting as some have said it by cuttin off service all together.
Every company should be held accountable in some way shape and form and MMo's are no different. These companies should care and take steps to ensure they do not rip off or leave customers feeling as though they have been just like any store, bank or business in the real world has to do.
In many ways SOE is being held accountable...via loss of subscriptions/market share and poor industry reputation.
--------
Ten Golden Rules Of Videogame Fanboyism
"SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor