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A fond farewell to PvE MMOs..
popinjay
Member Posts: 6,539
Looking at all the new MMO releases in the upcoming year, you start to notice a trend. You can see plenty of different kinds of multiplayer games, but the one common theme in them is they all seem to be gearing the endgame towards PvP. Aion, Fallen Earth, Mortal Online, Earthrise, Spellborn, any of the "comic" Ips, Darkfall (just out), and the list goes on and on with most ending in pvp action.
It appears that the overwhelming majority of those games will all start off in traditional MMO style: Start at level 1, do plenty of quests, some token dungeons along the way until you reach endgame. Now where older MMOs used to have people pointed towards raiding for the endgame and some PvP as a sideshow, newer MMOs have people pointed towards PvP as the final culmination, and want to integrate it as the defining element.
Warhammer and Age of Conan is a prime example of where the industry is headed. Although both games did miserably compared to what was expected of them, they both follow a similar formula. PvE is used along the way as a means to level up your guy, with side diversions. Warhammer does offer the "pvp only" path of leveling, but its heavily dependant on population, so most people have been forced to go the PvE route do to low pops at times, but the endgame purpose in not in doubt. Kill other players.
Conan is more how I see the industry headed than WAR, though. In Conan, you level traditionally with PvE, but with Pvp minigames along the way so you can kill other players. There is enough dungeons to raid so that you don't tire of them, and then a small number of large ones at the end. But if you are in a guild, your guild is probably building or planning to build a keep in the PvP zone, where any other guild can attack your city. So guilds begin building walls to keep invaders out, while adding crafting items inside. Ultimately, your guild will end up with a city that needs defending constantly, which will make your endgame largely PvP based. Raiding will become the "sideshow", much like PvP used to be. You can actually be fooled into thinking Conan is a PvE game because the PvE questing is done so well, and then at 80.. you get an awakening with the mad rush to bolster defenses against other players.
The types of MMOs in the past that were 90-95% PvE (FFXI, EQ2, WoW, etc) are becoming a dinosaur, as are the people that played them. Just like gamemakers wanted to copy Wow's success, they all seem as though they want to copy this formula of low maintainence endgame content.
When you reach endgame in a game such as this type, the developers now can relax. Why? Because they don't really have to create new dungeons for people to raid anymore. The people themselves will keep each other busy killing one another, over and over and over, in the same zones without noticing there's really nothing new to the table. A special event (Thankgiving Carve-up, or something similarly cheesy-named) will be the only things companies will have to do from that point on. Creativity will take a sharp nose dive because a Skull head trinket you got for killing 100 enemies will be good enough. How hard is that to design?
For younger gamers, this is a very good thing. They were raised on the PvP diet with console games. Most older gamers, who used to love to destroy humans in console and computer type games like Quake, Diablo, Unreal Tournament and such for PvP, then come to MMOs for PvE for a completely different satisfaction.. working TOGETHER with people in raids. Somehow developers have gotten people to pay for content they pretty much were getting for free for years, and happily paying for it. Perhaps this is where the industry was meant to go since inception and I never realized it while playing over the years.
I will mourn the passing of the PvE era. I know many on this site and around the industry today will not. Younger games want to kill each other, and companies want to be able to get the dollars that free games like Call to Duty were freeing people from having to spend.
When I want to do PvP from now on, I will look for those games because in most everyway, they are done consistently better with no "class balancing" issues or server downtime, or bugged environments and the whole host of problems. As for PvE, it will be a part of the games, but never again will it be the main focus of any new MMO.
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There is no good PvP or PvE game coming out anytime soon. I'm willing to bet nothing worthwhile will be released until the 4Q of 2010. The genre has hit a slump. Time to dust off old Diablo 2
I think you are wrong... PvE will be the main future of mmorpg's, its just that the pvp is starting to develope,it dosent mean the PvE is dead.
Basically clicking away text windows ruins every MMO, try to have fun instead of rushing things. Without story and lore all there is left is a bunch of mechanics.
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I have gone back to single player games lately. MMOs seem to be very similiar these days in their formula. I am finding that single player games are atually more enjoyable and probably pull about even in cost with MMOs yearly when all is said and done. I'm playing Titan Quest and Civilization IV right now and both are a lot of fun. Titan Quest is like a 3D Diablo 2, but the maps are not random. It's still pretty enoyable though. I can't wait for Diablo 3 to come out. There should be a lot of fun weather you like PvE or PvP.
Not dead, but dying.
There is not a single MMO on the horizon coming out that I can think of, that is heavy PvE with emphasis on raiding and those types of endgames. They all appear to have as the endgame, a PvP element as the key part involving maxed level characters.
Maybe you can mention one that I missed heavy on PvE endgame such as Wow, FFXI or EQ2 releasing in the next two years?
Just one will do, because I'd play that one exclusively. I don't think I could do any more MMO player killing.. I think WAR and AoC weaned me off of it completely. I'm ready to go back exclusively to mobs.
"TO MICHAEL!"
While you are quite right, you are forgetting SWTOR.
, a game that is worth of "If anything will dethrone WOW - this will" (And this time for real)
So a game heading towards future industry lead , and its almost completely PVE based
You need PvE and LOADS and LOADS of content to keep people interested, as well as PvP. Otherwise you end up with shit like WAR, a game you can play for 2 months and then get bored because you realise how shallow it really is.
So no I don't believe PvE MMOs are dieing or will die, because imo it will be wrong approach for developers to take and they will realise it when their MMO fails hard.
And like someone before me said SWTOR is your next best bet, and because it is going to be heavily content-based I reckon it's going to enjoy a lot more success than the crap we've seen lately. The content will keep the subs happy while the dev team can sort out issues.
O_o o_O
very interesting post, i dont see many of those. OP does not tell, if he likes the trend or not. its pretty objective
to me its a good trend. i am not playing massive multiplayer to kill computer mobs. so i hope you are right OP
Playing: Rohan
Played (from best to worst): Shadowbane, Guild Wars, Shayia, Age of Conan, Warhammer, Runes of Magic, Rappelz, Archlord, Knight online, King of Kings, Kal online, Last chaos
PVE based with ZERO player economy...
OP I've read you post a couple times and I respect your opinion. I just don't see what your seeing. There is tons of good pve games out right now. The games you listed I don't consider dinosaurs. I consider the games I started on EQ, DAOC and AO becoming the dinosaurs( sadly sniff). I will not judge FFXI never played it so nothing I say is directed toward that game but the other two games you listed I put in the first to kick off Age of the shallow dumbdown MMO if anything.
The reason I respect your opinions though is your man enough to say to the world "I am a carebear and damn proud of it!" In this thread and the other threads you have pushed this agenda.
So you go big dawg!
PVE based with ZERO player economy...
Please try to think out of the box for once. All pve mmo's need is raw adventure and exploration. It's one sad fact that real world concept of an "economy" has been fucking up this planet since day one of our so called civilization. I really don't "need" a virtual economy distracting me from the colourful stuff that pve brings.
Edit:
To expand on what i just said, maybe try and think about what is so very attractive about rpg games in the first place. It seems like deep down we all yearn for a time when the wilderness was surrounding us and posed a very real challenge. Mother nature kept our ancestors in check for a hell of a long time, I think virtual worlds need this ambience rather than an encroachment of commerce; such as wow and it's e-bay lite!
Bioware is making a mmo.The focus of an bioware game is the always story.My only worry about the game is the pvp.For record Aoc and War are struggling(especially war) because they lack pve.Wow is keeping its dominate place is because of its pve content and adquate pvp.People like to say the sky is falling,No game will have any sucess without strong pve,mmo players are trained nowadays to rush through content to get to the endgame if you don't have good pve people will tired of your game in a month or two. I am huge PvP player that is why i play most mmos but no mmo will be huge sucess without good pve endgame.
OF course.
PVP is cheaper: The other players are the content.
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I do a gree with the overarching reason the op gave. I also play MMO's for the community and for PVE (player vs environment). I am not a big pvp mmo fan when i want pvp i can dust of the xbox and jump onto live and do an hour or 2 of GoW or Halo3 or CoD pick a number multiplayer. I turn to mmo's for the all for a common goal experience. Having said that my current mmo of choice is CoX i love the good guys (players) vs the bad and often Overpowered bad guys (npcs) in CoH or the opposite in CoV. Personally i think in CoX adding pvp was a mistake on the CoH side as it required massive nerfing of existing char and lots of re-balancing just for pvp.
- This imo rendered the end game class in CoH (Kheldians) all but pointless and useless. If you were there when they were first introduced you know how awesome they were and how crappy they are now.... Not that this will happen in every game i know it doesn't. I also agree that often pvp is a great way for devs to take the easy way out. Why make new zones, mobs, boss battles, gear, AI, Mounts, Raids, Instances etc.... when you can just make a big empty map and slap a PVP label on it and put in a vendor and/or a re-spawn point. (Yeah i know over exaggeration .... so sue me, you get the point right?).
- I think a new game CAN be done well with both PVE & PvP. But make sure it is done from the ground up. Now if someone can figure out the best mix of the 2 maybe a mathmatical formula or nation wide + world wide survey and testing + focus groups and polling + 100 - 150 mill for a 250+ member dev team + maybe 12000 for early testing then a nice 6-8 month Open beta where the testers are ACTUALLY listened to.... + 20-30 mill of that for World Wide Advertising and for once a semi flawless launch just might = Major Success... Who knows?
- Maybe they could even write tools into the game that allow players to design some game content including weapons, missions, zones ,bosses , game progression events, mobs, etc... of course this stuff would be voted on by the players and accepted or rejected by the devs/gms. (Yes i am aware that some games are doing something like this ie CO by cryptic). I think THAT should be part of the future of MMO's. I think after that the DEVS should then run with those ideas and make new content.They can then flesh out those ideas with MORE content and have a truely evolving and living MMO.
(Yeah, yeah NOT going to happen)
- I really really hope the OP is dead wrong and that new games like SWTOR and STO and CO are heavy PVE with/without pvp (notice the small letters for pvp). I hope that trend has staying power. If not i will continue to stick with my current mmo for community and go to consoles for pvp.
- P.S yeah so what no big loss for them i suppose unless there are more like me out there than the current anti-pve/ PVE-lite, ultra hardcore PVP mmo trend wants to believe. (If the OP is correct that is). Only time will tell...
--bah now i am rambling on and annoying myself ....... fascinating discussion .........../carry on
I hope the OP is wrong.
I enjoy both PVE and PVP, but I guess I prefer PVE because I actually enjoy group combat against MOBs; I enjoy the teamwork with tactics.
For me the saddest thing about the rise of PvP is that the character classes have become increasingly homogenous. There seems to be this insistence that all the classes should be balanced. To me this is wrong.
I've been disappointed with group PvP because I feel the variety of character classes has been lost and the tactics have been dumbed down into a zerg mentality most of the time. I cannot accept that a healer should be able to fight face to face with a barbarian.
IMO this increasing popularity of PvP MMOs has resulted in the loss of Player Roles in MMORPGs and made them increasingly like button mashing shooters. I still believe there is a place for high quality PVE and enough of a market to tap into even if it is just us dinosaurs that still chose it.
PvE is the foundation of a successful MMO. PvP is generally sideline content, adding a different style of play in leu of straight PvE play. At least in the Western MMO market. Hardcore PvP games are mostly niche games like AOC, WAR, UO, and now Darkfall.
If PvE MMOs ever die then you will then see the downfall of all MMOs.
IMO the best PvP type MMO ever made was DAoC. Most of that game was PvE with the PvP portion mostly as a group/teams style play.
If you want to see how successful a hardcore PvP MMO will be, keep watching darkfall. IMO that game will be rated as a heavily niche type MMO.
Regarding the PvE MMOs, I can see the end game mobs begin to use very advanced AI in the future, allowing the raid-type mobs to use various combat tactics from fight to fight, giving an ever changing battle with each encounter.
I completey disagree with PVE not being the main focus in the future of a lot of games. The biggest MMO right now is still mainly a PVE game with a PVP option. A lot of players looking for games avoid PVP games. AoC and WAR are nowhere near the amount of players WoW+EQ+VG+EQ2+LOTRO etc have, they're a minority.
I'm still waiting on a good PVE game that can eclipse EQ though. I've gotten more fond of WoW because they do have endgame PVE and my choices are limited.
But I would rather play WoW than having to deal with all the people playing PVP. This is nothing against PVP but I feel a lot more kids partake in PVP and there's a lot more drama and showing off instead of gameplay often. Gear plays even a bigger role in PVP than it does in PVE. It's just not for me. I can't stand AoC and WAR. PVP is way too chaotic and random to be enjoyable for me.
I can list two pve games that i am following Star wars the old republic and Citidel of Sorcery both are story driven pve games.As far as a game coming out with a bunch of 60 man raids can't think of any they all want smaller 12 man at max raid content if you are even going to be able to get 12 man content anymore.
That would put a game in direct competition with WoW. I can't see BioWare's (the king of story) The Old Republic, being heavy pvp, but I could be wrong.
From EQ through to WoW the MMO genre has always been dominated by PvE games so the OP need not fear for their long-term future just yet. I think the current trend for PvP based games is more because no one dominates that side of the market in the way that WoW dominates PvE.
At this stage it's actually unproven whether a pure PvP MMO can even sustain a large market share because anyone who is interested in purely adversarial online games is also likely to be attracted to onine FPS / RTS games. As far as cooperative online games go the PvE MMO really has very little competition.
star wars is the only game im looking for ward to since its pve and bioware and most of all star wars and pvp games get boring fast after 2 months gg kthxbye like warhammer did
Played them all.
FFXI was the best, WoW was next best, EQ2 then LOTRO.
LOTRO was the best visually, but the gameplay put me to sleep. EQ2 had the best class choices. WoW had the best playability and best value for the dollar content wise. FFXI was the most engrossing for me of the bunch. With the class system and ability to bring players together like no other game, it was well done. It was the only game here that almost made it impossible to solo. I say almost because doing Beastmaster was actually a fun challenge to 75 solo for me and a nice change when friends weren't available to group. (this was before TAU)
I played FFXI for three years. That's long enough to play any one game if you ask me. The others were ok, but didn't hold my attention longer than six months due do that certain something not being there. WoW was the next longest I had played.
No, I don't find dungeon running boring and non-challenging. Usually the dungeon is the highlight of any game. In FFXI, the dungeons were disguised so you didn't feel as though you were in an actual dungeon. They also used instancing to a incredible degree of efficiency so there wasn't a whole lot of dungeon crawling. You must learn to think outside the box as all games don't enjoy just dungeoning as in WoW. But I prefer the teamwork fostered between smaller groups of people. I never understood this fascination to be a just another peon or number in a huge battle.
"TO MICHAEL!"
I somewhat agree and somewhat respectfuly disagree. Yes, we are seeing more pvp attention, and this is not necessarily a bad thing. PvP can be a wonderful passtime and the fact that so many games have ignored it is a travesty. However, the bottom line, at least to me, is that a good mmo will have balance in its playstyles. When you pve all the time, you get bored of it. When you pvp all the time, you get bored with that too. The same goes for deep crafting and player politics. It is only through the merging and balance of these three elements that I feel the next great mmo will be born. So from that perspective I respectfully disagree with your assertation that pve will be forgotten for pvp. Maybe in the short term, but certainly not in the long term.
God knows you can't make everyone happy, but companies sure as hell will try. That means PvE will still be as important as PvP in games - and when you start taking levels out of the equation, what does "endgame" mean anyways?
Take a look at Earthrise. It's "endgame" is PvP guild territory control. But, being a sandbox, that's not all you're going to be doing. It also has PvE encounters which require groups to complete - will they be the instanced, multi-boss, 4 hour Vent-required raids of WoW that we're used to? Probably not. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, though.
What will make MMOs succeed is the freedom of choice, regardless of whatever aspect of it is seen as being dominant. Sure, I may be playing a MMO with a PvP "endgame", but the choice is still there whether I want to PvE or craft or do anything else while my guild city is being destroyed, etc. Now I probably will go defend it, because that's the incentive, but you're never truly forced to do anything in any MMO (that I know of...), despite feeling the contrary at times.
I think you may be right in that the focus of newer MMOs will shift to advertising PvP, but I guarantee you that for all the new MMOs, the reviews will still critique the PvE aspect as much as they ever had.
I hope the genre continues to push out PVP, PVE and hybrid focused games.
I enjoy them all, From Blowing players up in Eve to running a dungeon in Lotro I wouldn't want mmos to switch to just one side.
We need variety right now the sandbox/FFA side of things is limited so MO, ER and FE are going to fix that.
Playing: Nothing
Looking forward to: Nothing
As some others have stated or hinted at, I don't think you are seeing any kind of real trend here.
PvP is popular with devs at the moment for three big reasons...the first and most important of which is that PvP is "content-lite", it takes the *least* dedicated time of any "content" to develop because it is all player driven. The "endgame" raid and zone design of games like EQ and WoW is a huge investment of coder, writer and graphic designer manpower/time and many many studios are "cheaping out" for various reasons.
Secondly, the lack of any good modern pvp-driven MMO made the market niche seem pretty attractive and everyone raced for it. The only reason that niche hasn't been overfilled yet is because most of the games that went for it (AoC, WAR, PotBS etc) failed in many regards. Likewise, many studios are trying desperately to capture the perceived next big "growth market" of MMOs...that of crossover FPS players.
Lastly, perceptions....the *minority* of players who want "sandbox" gameplay and pvp-centric games are incredibly vocal, mostly because they tend to be somewhat jaded/experienced gamers who aren't happily playing something else and so have time to whine and bitch a lot on forums...(Like me
However, have no illusions here, that is a tiny minority of the MMORPG potential player market, the majority are off happily immersed in questing and PvE in EQ2, Vanguard, WoW, LotRO and all the other currently active and successful MMOs with little to no pvp content.