As some others have stated or hinted at, I don't think you are seeing any kind of real trend here. PvP is popular with devs at the moment for three big reasons...the first and most important of which is that PvP is "content-lite", it takes the *least* dedicated time of any "content" to develop because it is all player driven. The "endgame" raid and zone design of games like EQ and WoW is a huge investment of coder, writer and graphic designer manpower/time and many many studios are "cheaping out" for various reasons. Secondly, the lack of any good modern pvp-driven MMO made the market niche seem pretty attractive and everyone raced for it. The only reason that niche hasn't been overfilled yet is because most of the games that went for it (AoC, WAR, PotBS etc) failed in many regards. Likewise, many studios are trying desperately to capture the perceived next big "growth market" of MMOs...that of crossover FPS players. Lastly, perceptions....the *minority* of players who want "sandbox" gameplay and pvp-centric games are incredibly vocal, mostly because they tend to be somewhat jaded/experienced gamers who aren't happily playing something else and so have time to whine and bitch a lot on forums...(Like me However, have no illusions here, that is a tiny minority of the MMORPG potential player market, the majority are off happily immersed in questing and PvE in EQ2, Vanguard, WoW, LotRO and all the other currently active and successful MMOs with little to no pvp content.
I dont totally agree that PvP content neccessarily requires less effort to make because it naturally has to involve a degree of PvE content to give players something to participate in. Also because it is more heavily player driven there is more scope for new unforeseen situations to occur which the devs will need to keep an eye on. Its more volatile in other words. In a pure PvE game its pretty much the same journey every time. Yes there is more "content" but that content is actually just the same stuff replicated most of the time with a bunch of text files thrown in to make the lore fans go "Oh wow! What a deep game!"
Otherwise everything in white text seems very insightful to me.
The red text is however a load of bollocks.......unless of course you can produce some facts and figures to back it up. Otherwise its just pure guess work as you have absolutely no way of knowing what EVERY gamer prefers. The whole "PvPers are a loud and vocal minority" is so old. Its that typical put-down that PvE players use to try and make the PvP fans seem like angry raging lunatics and in turn try and make themselves come across as superior, calm and more intelligent players.
The "incredibly vocal PvPers" you are referring to are also the people you play PvE games alongside........and dont say that the majority of the PvE players are happily playing the PvE games currently on the market. A large number of them are on these forums a lot of the time because they are bored to death with what is on offer.
Personally i think in CoX adding pvp was a mistake on the CoH side as it required massive nerfing of existing char and lots of re-balancing just for pvp.
Completely agree with you
In LOTRO - originally there was no plan for PVP. Than they added kind of PVP called monster play.
They promised that they will never nerf player class to balance PVP.
Yet monster play grew in popularity. And notable PVE class - Burglar - became to powerful. Because its Stealth class.
So it was nerfed...
Now , stealth was never problem in PVE. Its simple gameplay choice. Its fun for people that like it. And its never overpowered in PVE.
But burglars got so nerfed - they fall into least wanted class. Nobody plays them anymore.
And this is how PVP punished players that never wanted PVP and therefore choose PVE game.
Ah but if less people are interested in playing a burglar as a result of being nerfed due to the PvP aspect of the game, does it really matter at all to the players who are only interested in the PvE aspect? The PvE players are effectively immersed in their own personal world in which its them against the computer. Why should it matter to those individuals what other people are doing? In a pure PvE game the actions of the players dont really have any impact on anything anyway. Its effectively just an interactive online book and the "story" doesnt care if there are a million guardians, minstrels, wardens etc and only 10 burglars. The individual can still read the story.
Star wars the old republic sounds like its going to be a mainly pve game with pvp secondary because the devs say thats its going to be a heavily story driven.
I think pvp should be something that happens by chance in the open world like in the middle of doing a pve event and not in some battleground or scenario.
While you are quite right, you are forgetting SWTOR. , a game that is worth of "If anything will dethrone WOW - this will" (And this time for real) So a game heading towards future industry lead , and its almost completely PVE based
apart that it isnt rly an mmorpg.. and while most of us hoped that it will be new king.. most of us knows now.. thats its gona be online single player game with fees.. i wonder will there be any sort of pvp/pve.. as their combat is .. what they called.. cant recall now.. but it wont work in any 5v1 dungeons or 20 v1 raids.. and i doubt there will be pvp.. apart endless solo dungeons.. on which whole game is based..
The op is right and I've had the same feelings I've had for a long time. The pve genre as we've known it in the past is dying. Good. The mmo genre needs to wake up and become more interesting. Many people agree that it has become stale and boring. I like pvp occasionally but for it to be the endgame or focus of a mmorpg reeks of lazy development. Creating a pve game requires more creative effort than a pvp game. Really? Are yoy sure about that? How much effort is required to recreate variations of the quest "I need to make some lovely nice boar soup. Please go and kill 10 boars". Creative effort? I dont think so. For those folks complaining how can someone play a pve game without becoming tired of the same old raids....you can become tired of doing anything in any game. Alot of people expect a mmorpg to become a second life when a game should never be used in that manner. So they burn through content in a month then bitch forever after about the same old pve raids. You have only yourself to blame. Play in moderation. I totally agree. However the games are designed to make the players yearn for the next level or the next piece of loot. I think many people play these games more because they are addicted rather than for the enjoyment of playing. Without the shallow character progression in the form of level grinding or the constant collecting of new loot which is actually just the same as the last loot but simply with higher stats to match the players higher level......well......what are you left with? I seriously doubt anyone would bother playing an mmo purely for its gameplay value because without all the "addiction" stuff they are piss poor as actual games. In fact I have never understood how a person can play the same game for years anyway. Pvp is mostly running around ganking. Call it what you will but it all crumbles down into killing someone else for whatever reason. Who plays pvp games to craft or quest? Pve games can have far more depth. PvE is mostly running around ganking mobs. Call it what you will but it all crumbles down into killing mobs for whatever reason. Your logic fails. Sorry. At least a player can react to you and go on the offensive. A mob cant even see you unless you stand within a few metres of it......and even then it doesnt always react lol Who plays PvP games to craft or quest? Well regarding the questing part its a pretty stupid question considering that there arent any games which really incorporate questing and PvP successfully. Who plays PvP to quest? No-one because there arent any games for that. As for crafting.....well it actually makes MORE sense in a PvP game because you can become a valuable and needed member for your guild if the stuff you make actually gets put to use in a competitive nature. Crafting in most PvE games is useless because mobs usually drop better loot than you can make. If there are no mobs to drop "shiny phat loot" then player crafting plays a vital role in the game and is a LOT more interesting. I've said this before: The instant gratification, "I'm scared to install hardware" and "I'm afraid to type", marathon deathmatch console crowd is destroying pc games for the rest of us. You may have said that before but you really shouldnt say it again as its a really dumb statement. No they arent. You're just imagining it. The "marathon deathmatch console crowd" you are referring to are the same people you group up with in PvE mmos. You can try and put people into neat little boxes if it makes you feel more secure in some way but they wont stay in them.
While you are quite right, you are forgetting SWTOR. , a game that is worth of "If anything will dethrone WOW - this will" (And this time for real) So a game heading towards future industry lead , and its almost completely PVE based
apart that it isnt rly an mmorpg.. and while most of us hoped that it will be new king.. most of us knows now.. thats its gona be online single player game with fees.. i wonder will there be any sort of pvp/pve.. as their combat is .. what they called.. cant recall now.. but it wont work in any 5v1 dungeons or 20 v1 raids.. and i doubt there will be pvp.. apart endless solo dungeons.. on which whole game is based..
Well, it's nice to know I'm completely incorrect. I really hate to do anything half baked.
The endgame PvP games that are releasing this year are not coming out as some 'reactionary force to the status quo'. The MMO market has nothing to do with ideologies... its about gaming and what companies think they can sell for the least amount of capital outlay. Its also about not directly competing with another company, when several others have consistantly fail.
Companies know that they can make a PvE based game anytime, but that requires a TON of writing, questing and dungeon designing, artists, etc. This process takes infinitely longer than say, whipping up a "Capture the Flag" scenario in a PvP mmo and is FAR cheaper too. Nothing really tough about maintaining "zone flipping" once the simple mechanic is in place, nor is it revolutionary. You really don't need an immersive world for a PvP player. Design your instance or zone, you can even paint it on and it doesn't matter. It's not like a typical pvper will really look around and go notice how the water or clouds are moving, or think "Wow, those trees are amazing!" They are too busy watching for the zerg. They are not interested in an immersive experience, by and large. I would have to disagree here and point to CCP as the prefect example of how that is not the case. CCP running EVE which is one of the Few PVP MMOs that was designed from the scratch to be heavily PVP player faction vs Player faction warfare has one of the most Expensive Server clusters not in the MMO world, just the world period. They have been pushing very close from joining a list of Server clusters that is dominated by Fortune 500 Companies, Goverments, and Research groups. Be honest is is very Cheap and easy to do PVE. Think its hard go load up some of the custom Neverwinter Nights mods/scenarios, There are several of those that have a far better storyline then anything that blizzard has put out, and were done in less time then it took blizzard to put out any of thier expansions. Its not expensive to run a PVE server where everything and its brother is instanced so it can run on very cheap server hardware. PvP games are coming out because as has been said in this thread, far cheaper and easier to maintain. It gives the company vastly improved return on their investments and further "updates" don't require much manpower.
The key thing is Cheap and easy to design a Crappy PVP game where everything is based off of some FPS scenario and heavily instanced left and right. A good PVP game requires a lot of money and a solid group of designers to make sure that everything is balanced properly and to continue to expand the options of the players in how they are able to fight thier own wars, and don't think that PVPers don't reognize good immersion as well. Problem is the current group of so called PVP centered games have done everything but be PVP centered games. They have been poorly done PVE game mechanics with the same tacked on PVP game mechanics that are available in PVE games now. When that changes you might see things a bit different.
Looking at all the new MMO releases in the upcoming year, you start to notice a trend. You can see plenty of different kinds of multiplayer games, but the one common theme in them is they all seem to be gearing the endgame towards PvP. Aion, Fallen Earth, Mortal Online, Earthrise, Spellborn, any of the "comic" Ips, Darkfall (just out), and the list goes on and on with most ending in pvp action.
It appears that the overwhelming majority of those games will all start off in traditional MMO style: Start at level 1, do plenty of quests, some token dungeons along the way until you reach endgame. Now where older MMOs used to have people pointed towards raiding for the endgame and some PvP as a sideshow, newer MMOs have people pointed towards PvP as the final culmination, and want to integrate it as the defining element.
Warhammer and Age of Conan is a prime example of where the industry is headed. Although both games did miserably compared to what was expected of them, they both follow a similar formula. PvE is used along the way as a means to level up your guy, with side diversions.
Except for Warhammer, which was mediocre, that entire list is crap, garbage, junk. I wouldn't care if those games had PvP, or PvE, or just PP, so I don't think you can extrapolate a trend from a long list of crap.
The only decent game on the horizon is TOR, and I don't know if it's going to focus on PvP at all. If it does, cool, but obviously the game is geared towards PvE.
Are you saying you want more raiding end games? If that's what ya want, cool, I hope some developers make 'em for ya. But I'll take RvR and end game PvP over raiding any day. Just not in the crap form you listed.
While you are quite right, you are forgetting SWTOR. , a game that is worth of "If anything will dethrone WOW - this will" (And this time for real) So a game heading towards future industry lead , and its almost completely PVE based
apart that it isnt rly an mmorpg.. and while most of us hoped that it will be new king.. most of us knows now.. thats its gona be online single player game with fees.. i wonder will there be any sort of pvp/pve.. as their combat is .. what they called.. cant recall now.. but it wont work in any 5v1 dungeons or 20 v1 raids.. and i doubt there will be pvp.. apart endless solo dungeons.. on which whole game is based..
Your so wrong, let me guess swg vet?
nop.. never played any of starwars mmos.. i might be wrong, never said in that post that im 100% right.. its just what i known from info that been on web , and didnt do any research.. please prove me wrong..
A lot of people including game developers seem to think all PvP'ers want to do is run around mindlessly killing other players. If i wanted to do that i would play TF2, CoD etc. Here's a quote from another forum that sums up what i want.
"Those player-driven situations form friendships, enemies, alliances, etc...Politics and drama are born...These are what PvPers want...PvP as an integral part of the game. If we just wanted pure PvP in a scenario minigame, then we wouldnt be playing MMO's."
I am looking forward to SW:TOR just too see how a story driven mmo will turn out (liking all Bioware games helps). I have nothing against PvE games but whilst i enjoyed it in the past i now find mob AI a poor substitute for actual people. That and it seems new mmo's are so solo friendly there is little point in grouping which is one of the reasons i play mmo's.
I am hoping Earthrise can deliver a decent PvP game.
Looking at all the new MMO releases in the upcoming year, you start to notice a trend. You can see plenty of different kinds of multiplayer games, but the one common theme in them is they all seem to be gearing the endgame towards PvP. Aion, Fallen Earth, Mortal Online, Earthrise, Spellborn, any of the "comic" Ips, Darkfall (just out), and the list goes on and on with most ending in pvp action.
It appears that the overwhelming majority of those games will all start off in traditional MMO style: Start at level 1, do plenty of quests, some token dungeons along the way until you reach endgame. Now where older MMOs used to have people pointed towards raiding for the endgame and some PvP as a sideshow, newer MMOs have people pointed towards PvP as the final culmination, and want to integrate it as the defining element.
Warhammer and Age of Conan is a prime example of where the industry is headed. Although both games did miserably compared to what was expected of them, they both follow a similar formula. PvE is used along the way as a means to level up your guy, with side diversions.
Except for Warhammer, which was mediocre, that entire list is crap, garbage, junk. I wouldn't care if those games had PvP, or PvE, or just PP, so I don't think you can extrapolate a trend from a long list of crap.
The only decent game on the horizon is TOR, and I don't know if it's going to focus on PvP at all. If it does, cool, but obviously the game is geared towards PvE.
Are you saying you want more raiding end games? If that's what ya want, cool, I hope some developers make 'em for ya. But I'll take RvR and end game PvP over raiding any day. Just not in the crap form you listed.
what the hell is tor.., and its community who changed aoc from pve game to pvp game.. as they whined enough at funcom.. so they changed focus in middevelpment.. and result you all saw.. broken pve raids.. broken pvp , broken sieges.. rushed release.. ( rather not enough time after switching focus )
Looking at all the new MMO releases in the upcoming year, you start to notice a trend. You can see plenty of different kinds of multiplayer games, but the one common theme in them is they all seem to be gearing the endgame towards PvP. Aion, Fallen Earth, Mortal Online, Earthrise, Spellborn, any of the "comic" Ips, Darkfall (just out), and the list goes on and on with most ending in pvp action.
It appears that the overwhelming majority of those games will all start off in traditional MMO style: Start at level 1, do plenty of quests, some token dungeons along the way until you reach endgame. Now where older MMOs used to have people pointed towards raiding for the endgame and some PvP as a sideshow, newer MMOs have people pointed towards PvP as the final culmination, and want to integrate it as the defining element.
Warhammer and Age of Conan is a prime example of where the industry is headed. Although both games did miserably compared to what was expected of them, they both follow a similar formula. PvE is used along the way as a means to level up your guy, with side diversions.
Except for Warhammer, which was mediocre, that entire list is crap, garbage, junk. I wouldn't care if those games had PvP, or PvE, or just PP, so I don't think you can extrapolate a trend from a long list of crap.
The only decent game on the horizon is TOR, and I don't know if it's going to focus on PvP at all. If it does, cool, but obviously the game is geared towards PvE.
Are you saying you want more raiding end games? If that's what ya want, cool, I hope some developers make 'em for ya. But I'll take RvR and end game PvP over raiding any day. Just not in the crap form you listed.
what the hell is tor.., and its community who changed aoc from pve game to pvp game.. as they whined enough at funcom.. so they changed focus in middevelpment.. and result you all saw.. broken pve raids.. broken pvp , broken sieges.. rushed release.. ( rather not enough time after switching focus )
Current Star Wars MMO in development, The Old Republic, based on the Knights of the Old Republic game world.
Personally i think in CoX adding pvp was a mistake on the CoH side as it required massive nerfing of existing char and lots of re-balancing just for pvp.
Completely agree with you
In LOTRO - originally there was no plan for PVP. Than they added kind of PVP called monster play.
They promised that they will never nerf player class to balance PVP.
Yet monster play grew in popularity. And notable PVE class - Burglar - became to powerful. Because its Stealth class.
So it was nerfed...
Now , stealth was never problem in PVE. Its simple gameplay choice. Its fun for people that like it. And its never overpowered in PVE.
But burglars got so nerfed - they fall into least wanted class. Nobody plays them anymore.
And this is how PVP punished players that never wanted PVP and therefore choose PVE game.
Exactly. If you add things to a game that origionally people never would have agreed with you get an overall crap game. That an the main plan for that game gets quite watered down, I mean sure there can be exceptions, but I have yet to see one when it comes to core changes to a game. *cough*SWG-nge*cough* Sorry.. time for a cough drop.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
The red text is however a load of bollocks.......unless of course you can produce some facts and figures to back it up. Otherwise its just pure guess work as you have absolutely no way of knowing what EVERY gamer prefers. The whole "PvPers are a loud and vocal minority" is so old. Its that typical put-down that PvE players use to try and make the PvP fans seem like angry raging lunatics and in turn try and make themselves come across as superior, calm and more intelligent players. The "incredibly vocal PvPers" you are referring to are also the people you play PvE games alongside........and dont say that the majority of the PvE players are happily playing the PvE games currently on the market. A large number of them are on these forums a lot of the time because they are bored to death with what is on offer.
I agree with neon in this matter. There is no way one can truly "know" where the majority lie. However, just due to logical reasoning I could say that the "jaded" gamers are actually the majority. But there's a good reason I say this. Because I know many friends online and real life that I would stick in the jaded section just due to the fact that they are getting sick of everything being rehashed.
Furthermore, even when they are jaded towards those mmos, those people still play those games just due to it having some degree of fun and mostly just to play with their friends. Lets be serious with ourselves for a brief moment.. how many mmo games would have bit the dust if there wasn't a good community or friends were not there?
Well said neon.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
Lastly, perceptions....the *minority* of players who want "sandbox" gameplay and pvp-centric games are incredibly vocal, mostly because they tend to be somewhat jaded/experienced gamers who aren't happily playing something else and so have time to whine and bitch a lot on forums...(Like me However, have no illusions here, that is a tiny minority of the MMORPG potential player market, the majority are off happily immersed in questing and PvE in EQ2, Vanguard, WoW, LotRO and all the other currently active and successful MMOs with little to no pvp content.
I dont totally agree that PvP content neccessarily requires less effort to make because it naturally has to involve a degree of PvE content to give players something to participate in. Also because it is more heavily player driven there is more scope for new unforeseen situations to occur which the devs will need to keep an eye on. Its more volatile in other words. In a pure PvE game its pretty much the same journey every time. Yes there is more "content" but that content is actually just the same stuff replicated most of the time with a bunch of text files thrown in to make the lore fans go "Oh wow! What a deep game!"
Otherwise everything in white text seems very insightful to me.
The red text is however a load of bollocks.......unless of course you can produce some facts and figures to back it up. Otherwise its just pure guess work as you have absolutely no way of knowing what EVERY gamer prefers. The whole "PvPers are a loud and vocal minority" is so old. Its that typical put-down that PvE players use to try and make the PvP fans seem like angry raging lunatics and in turn try and make themselves come across as superior, calm and more intelligent players.
The "incredibly vocal PvPers" you are referring to are also the people you play PvE games alongside........and dont say that the majority of the PvE players are happily playing the PvE games currently on the market. A large number of them are on these forums a lot of the time because they are bored to death with what is on offer.
I'm one of those vocal PvPers, freely admitted. As for facts, try the subscription numbers or heck try any one of a number of surveys done over the years. A great guy by the name of Nick Yee has a wonderful site and is one of many who have spent a great deal of time analyzing the demographics and sociology of MMO players. You may not want to admit it, heck I'm not entirely thrilled with it many times myself, but it *is* a fact that the majority of the current MMO playerbase doesn't want much if anything to do with PvP in any form, regardless of risks, rewards or incentives. There is a ton of evidence, survey-based, subscription based and anecdotal to back that up. Now, that is something that might possibly be changable - especially if anyone manages to really attract the FPS/console players...but they are not in large part *in* the current MMO market. That's one reason why so many are going for the "persistant fps" gimmick right now - it's easier to try and grow a new segment of the market than compete with the established big boys.
As for the dev investment difference, you simply don't understand the process and what goes into each if you think PvE "raid" content doesn't take a LOT more time than what passes for PvP in these games. Yes there are class balance issues and mechanics issues, but that is true of either form. With what most of these games are passing off as PvP, all you have is zone design - aside from graphics and pathing issues there isn't much to it. Use WAR for an example, their PvP zones are *empty* of NPC life aside from the keep guards/lords and their combat scripting is pathetically simple compared to say the old Temple of Veeshan in EQ or even the Burning Crusade HQ in WoW. The dev thinking on PvP zones is simple - enemy players provide all the challenge...so they don't spend days/weeks working up encounters that can challenge 6,12,24+ players at a time over and over.
Oh and those "boxes of text" you so casually dismiss take the most time of all - try writing creative and interesting dialogues sometime...or engaging quest lines....the *good* PVE MMOs invest an amazing amount of time and resources into that...the bad ones show it and tend to fail.
Originally posted by neonwire PvE is mostly running around ganking mobs. Call it what you will but it all crumbles down into killing mobs for whatever reason. Your logic fails. Sorry. At least a player can react to you and go on the offensive. A mob cant even see you unless you stand within a few metres of it......and even then it doesnt always react lol
Thanks for the interesting viewpoints.
I would say firstly, I do not believe it is possible to "gank" a mob. One thing I have noticed in many PvE games, is that mobs all have different 'sensiblities'. You have some mobs that will aggro you from really far off, some that have moderate ranges and some that let you sneak right up on them. To classify all mobs in all games as being stupid, would make me wonder exactly what type of PvE games you have played.. and for how long.
For example, the way you are describing PvE action, I can tell right off you have never have leveled a character to 75 in FFXI. You believe all mobs act the same, so therefore there is no challenge and its all rehash.
Anyone who has played Final Fantasy for any length of time will tell you right off you are gravely mistaken. There are zones which have mobs that SMELL you, so you need a spell called "Deodorize" or a potion you have to have crafted. Some mobs have SIGHT aggro, so unless you are invis, you are dead. Some have SOUND aggro, Sneak Oils needed if you are a melee. Running through an undead mob zone? Better not have a cut on your character (low health).. undeads there will sense your low health and aggro you. A lot of fun fighting two mobs, then one walks by and can't see, hear or smell you... but knows you are dying and joins in. And the best... some mobs have a different combination of all of these, or all of them. You have to be on your toes going through zones, wondering if your spell will last, or if you have enough pots to get out alive, because when you die, you lose exp. Now imagine doing this in a zone where you are leveling up near all these different types of mobs, and you say "no challenge"?
This is a PvE game where you go BACKWARDS for dying against a mob, leveling up OR boss fighting. You can level up with your group for an hour, then die two times and lose a huge chunk of what you gained. DE-LEVELING and going from level 60 to level 59 if you lose too much exp isn't built into today's pvp MMOs, again EVE being the exception. Even WoW has a death penalty in its PvP where you can't do THAT, lol. This type of PvE game is so challenging and teamwork sensitive, that soloists do not last long, or cannot get very far. This game has broken many younger players who wanted to "solo to 75". They quit because they were forced to rely on others, and could not work in a team, because they prefer the Hero PvP style of play, where all they care about is finishing high in the point totals for loot or bragging rights on some rating site. There is no reason why a PvE mmo cannot be made to be as challenging as this again. It just takes companies too much... work, so they opt this easy PvP route. Capture the Skull, Capture the Keep, Capture the Base, Capture the Zone. Capture The Wallet is more like it.
Now, pick any pvp MMO (other than EVE).. where is the death penalty? Where is the challenge or the ultimate penalty for trying to fight someone higher than you? There is none. WAR you die, rez at the camp, then run back into the battle in less than 10 minutes in many cases to attack again. Talk about rinse and repeat.. There is NO death penalty in AoC.. rez, put your buffs back on. If you don't go back and get your tombstone, you get penalized a whopping.. -2%; that will wear off in 30 mins. Guild Wars? No penalty. I never played DAOC, but was there a death penalty or any reason for people to have caution before doing Leroy Jenkins charges? Or daring each other to run into the boss' lair for a hoot? You know.. for a genre that claims challenges that are far superior against people than in dungeons, there sure is little risk on the line in the vast majority of these PvP games. Someone mentioned earlier about PvE being carebear, but compared to no RISK, idk.
PvE is mostly running around ganking mobs. Call it what you will but it all crumbles down into killing mobs for whatever reason. Your logic fails. Sorry. At least a player can react to you and go on the offensive. A mob cant even see you unless you stand within a few metres of it......and even then it doesnt always react lol
Thanks for the interesting viewpoints.
You took that sentence completely out of context as it was originally in response to another poster who used the exact same words to describe PvP.......but no worries I wont lose to much sleep over it.......and yes you can gank a mob. Of course you can. You see it standing there waiting to be killed by you and you get to choose whether to slaughter it or not. If its too tough then you dont go near it and if its about level with you or an easy kill then you can go and rip its head off with ease because you know exactly how its going to react and what its going to do. It will do the same thing every time.......run at you and start bashing you.....or if its a spellcaster or ranged attacker it will stand and start shooting you. You dont get that level of certainty with a human player.
I would say firstly, I do not believe it is possible to "gank" a mob. One thing I have noticed in many PvE games, is that mobs all have different 'sensiblities'. You have some mobs that will aggro you from really far off, some that have moderate ranges and some that let you sneak right up on them. To classify all mobs in all games as being stupid, would make me wonder exactly what type of PvE games you have played.. and for how long.
Ok lets take a few typical PvE games like EQ2, WoW, AoC, Anarchy Online and Vanguard. You're got trying to seriously suggest that the mobs in those games act intelligently are you? Yes some of them dont attack you unless they are provoked such as a deer in EQ2 or a hopping bunny rabbit in WoW. Some will attack you when you walk within an aggro range and yes that aggro range can vary. Big deal. Some of the mobs in WoW will run away when they are low on health and if they pass within range of another aggressive mob then they will aggro you too. This is a nice touch but it hardly passes for intelligent behaviour. Its still pretty basic AI. So basicly.....mobs have different aggro ranges. Ok. In those 5 games (which are all well known PvE games) would I classify the mobs as being intelligent? Definately not. They are all dumb as fuck and are basicly walking bags of exp and loot waiting to be farmed by the players.
But how long must I play these games before I encounter truly awe inspiring AI then? Must I dedicate my life to one of them for several years? How about half a year? Is that enough. To be honest I have never played any mmo long enough to reach the almighty end game content because they always get so god damn boring. I remember in WoW I got to level 48 before my brain melted from the boredom of fighting the dumb mobs over and over again which ARE all the same (ie different graphic, same bullshit). In EQ2 it was the same experience......dumb mobs aggro you and run and bash you......in fact in that game you can click on the mobs and see exactly which ones are going to attack you before you commit yourself to fighting them. It doesnt matter if its a snake, a skeleton, an orc or a giant - it will run at you and attack you and will also chase you at high speed if you decide to leg it (why the hell would a snake chase you up a mountain range?!). I think that game killed me with the tedium somewhere before level 40. In AoC......actually I think I will stop now because I think you get the point. The AI for mobs in mmos is basicly piss poor. They are there to feed the player with exp and loot......basicly they are fuel for the players level progression and are only there to give people something to click on as they progress through the badly written stories which pass for content in these games. However the way mobs in mmos can switch to attack the biggest threat IS a nice touch.......but it hardly classes them as intelligent opponents as players are able to "manage aggro" (a common term in PvE mmos) as they know what the mobs are going to do. You dont get this with a human player......although that depends of course on the intelligence of the human involved.
For example, the way you are describing PvE action, I can tell right off you have never have leveled a character to 75 in FFXI. You believe all mobs act the same, so therefore there is no challenge and its all rehash.
Thats correct. In fact I have never played FFXI full stop. It is well known for its endless grinding and I really have no desire to play it.
Anyone who has played Final Fantasy for any length of time will tell you right off you are gravely mistaken. There are zones which have mobs that SMELL you, so you need a spell called "Deodorize" or a potion you have to have crafted. Some mobs have SIGHT aggro, so unless you are invis, you are dead. Some have SOUND aggro, Sneak Oils needed if you are a melee. Running through an undead mob zone? Better not have a cut on your character (low health).. undeads there will sense your low health and aggro you. A lot of fun fighting two mobs, then one walks by and can't see, hear or smell you... but knows you are dying and joins in. And the best... some mobs have a different combination of all of these, or all of them. You have to be on your toes going through zones, wondering if your spell will last, or if you have enough pots to get out alive, because when you die, you lose exp. Now imagine doing this in a zone where you are leveling up near all these different types of mobs, and you say "no challenge"?
OK the smell, sight and sound ideas are nice twists but you are still talking about aggro ranges. Its still the same thing really. There are just different items which turn off the relevant aggro range. Its a bit different but its not really all that clever is it.
Challenging? Perhaps it is if you choose to try and navigate through a field of "objects" that are basicly landmines that will go off when you pass within their intricate web of individual aggro ranges.
I will choose a field full of players any day thanks as I would rather enjoy myself rather than pitting myself against a collection of simplistic motion sensors.
This is a PvE game where you go BACKWARDS for dying against a mob, leveling up OR boss fighting. You can level up with your group for an hour, then die two times and lose a huge chunk of what you gained. DE-LEVELING and going from level 60 to level 59 if you lose too much exp isn't built into today's pvp MMOs, again EVE being the exception. Even WoW has a death penalty in its PvP where you can't do THAT, lol. This type of PvE game is so challenging and teamwork sensitive, that soloists do not last long, or cannot get very far. This game has broken many younger players who wanted to "solo to 75". They quit because they were forced to rely on others, and could not work in a team, because they prefer the Hero PvP style of play, where all they care about is finishing high in the point totals for loot or bragging rights on some rating site. There is no reason why a PvE mmo cannot be made to be as challenging as this again. It just takes companies too much... work, so they opt this easy PvP route. Capture the Skull, Capture the Keep, Capture the Base, Capture the Zone. Capture The Wallet is more like it.
Ok firstly lets get the "death penalty" part out of the way. The death penalty aspect of a game applies to both PvE and PvP aspects of games so why are you even bringing it up? All you are doing is simply highlighting the fact that mmos have become easier over the years and more "carebear" oriented. Yeah I dont like that either as it leads to crappy players not giving a shit about anything and generally meaningless trivial gameplay (eg WAR).......but what has this got to do with the whole PvE vs PvP thing? Nothing. Ok you really like FFXI. I get it.
Then you start ranting on about players that cant play "challenging PvE content" because their minds are somehow twisted by PvP games. What the hell are you talking about?! You're being a complete lunatic and making yourself sound like an idiot. You really hate PvP with a passion dont you.....to such a degree that you start frothing at the mouth, turning red in the face and preaching absolute gibberish like some kind of religious bible bashing nutcase.
You also seem to have this thing about focusing on all the worst aspects of PvP. Why is that? Capture this and capture that? Lets apply that to a PvE game shall we.
Capture the Mobs Loot, Capture the Quest Objective, Capture the Static Button disguised as Object, Capture the Boss Room.
Good PvP is more than just silly little mini-games. Lets focus on some good PvP games shall we. Now lets see theres......ummm......well theres that really good one called......errm......oh hang on a sec. They're all a load of shit arent they!.....apart from EvE obviously which you mention below. We havent seen ANY mmos that have well implemented PvP in their game design. They are all just PvE games with crap PvP added onto them. Its either "Go here into this area where you can kill each other for exp and rewards" or "Fuck it! You can just kill each for no reason at all". THIS is why you hate PvP so much. Its because you have never played a good PvP mmo. Neither have I. Unlike you though I have not allowed this to clowd my judgement. In fact it makes me look forward with great anticipation to the future mmos. You look at them and think "Oh no more PvP games. They will be just like the shitty ones we currently have" while I think "Oh great more PvP games. More opportunities for a dev company to actually make a good one for a change". Why dont you just quit all the doom and gloom nay saying and stop clinging to the past. People WILL play games with and against each other because its human nature to be competitive and its also what the internet is obviously fully capable of. People want to have more choice than just EvE and they will get it sooner or later.
Now, pick any pvp MMO (other than EVE).. where is the death penalty? Where is the challenge or the ultimate penalty for trying to fight someone higher than you? There is none. WAR you die, rez at the camp, then run back into the battle in less than 10 minutes in many cases to attack again. Talk about rinse and repeat.. There is NO death penalty in AoC.. rez, put your buffs back on. If you don't go back and get your tombstone, you get penalized a whopping.. -2%; that will wear off in 30 mins. Guild Wars? No penalty. I never played DAOC, but was there a death penalty or any reason for people to have caution before doing Leroy Jenkins charges? Or daring each other to run into the boss' lair for a hoot? You know.. for a genre that claims challenges that are far superior against people than in dungeons, there sure is little risk on the line in the vast majority of these PvP games. Someone mentioned earlier about PvE being carebear, but compared to no RISK, idk.
I totally agree. The PvP you describe in these games is bullshit. Its trivial and meaningless. The lack of any death penalty makes it completely pointless. This also completely applies to PvE games too. You die, you rez, you run back and in less than 10 minutes you are having the same fight all over again. Rinse and repeat? Yeah thats mmos for you. Thats not something specific to PvP though is it.
However its more than just the death penalty that makes these games crap. Its the complete lack of any ability to change ANYTHING in the game which makes it all so pointless. When this gets mentioned people claim that the point of games is just to have fun.......and yet its only fun for a person who doesnt want any form of risk or challenge in their game. For me I want to play an mmo which has meaningful gameplay, for example a game with faction based PvP (and PvE too!) in which the actions of players from my faction can cause the game world to change and have a lasting effect on the other players. No I dont mean shitty global buffs. I mean something along the lines of taking over a temple, fighting our way into its centre (PvE if you like), activating a magic artifact inside it and causing a portal to open elsewhere in the game world which might spew out demons that attack players in that part of the world or even provide access to a different area for those players. Just an idea. There are loads of things that could be done.
You mentioned WAR. This a prime example of extremely bad and totally meaningless PvP. In fact its not a PvP game at all. Its a casual PvE game with PvP playpens plonked in it. Everything in the game is optional and absolutely nothing matters. The only thing anyone can do in a game like that is go up levels and collect gear......which is precisely what its players focus (what else have they got to do?). The PvP in that game is just another optional way to do that. Games like this (and in fact ALL mmos apart from EvE) are simply examples of how badly thought out game design and shitty PvP game mechanics can ruin a game.
But yeah PvP in mmos has indeed been a total let down. However thats more reason to have more of it as I really want to see a game where it is done well. It works fine for EVE......although I think a dynamic mmo which successfully incorporates good intelligent and well written PvE (sorry but games like EQ2, WoW etc are just childish bullshit......get a real author who has written books for grown ups to write it) with "meaningful" well-designed and well-implemented PvP which allows for realistic roleplaying decisions to take place and shape the game world will be truly awesome. Once someone pulls this off then people will laugh at all the mmos they have been playing.
Wall of text hits you for 25,000 damage. You die. You respawn. You come straight back and read it all again........
Wall of text hits you for 25,000 damage. You die. You respawn. You come straight back and read it all again........
(You active Text Suppression Shield)
Wall of text hits you for 0 damage. You gain 500 exp, a Generic Item + 10 and the "False Sense of Achievement" buff which last for 10 minutes.
Ok firstly lets get the "death penalty" part out of the way. The death penalty aspect of a game applies to both PvE and PvP aspects of games so why are you even bringing it up? All you are doing is simply highlighting the fact that mmos have become easier over the years and more "carebear" oriented. Yeah I dont like that either as it leads to crappy players not giving a shit about anything and generally meaningless trivial gameplay (eg WAR).......but what has this got to do with the whole PvE vs PvP thing? Nothing. Ok you really like FFXI. I get it.
Then you start ranting on about players that cant play "challenging PvE content" because their minds are somehow twisted by PvP games. What the hell are you talking about?!You're being a complete lunatic and making yourself sound like an idiot. You really hate PvP with a passion dont you.....to such a degree that you start frothing at the mouth, turning red in the face and preaching absolute gibberish like some kind of religious bible bashing nutcase.
Well, it was a fairly decent discussion up to this point, and I hoped you had somewhat changed your personality since your old Warhammer Defending days since you now think Warhammer isn't so hot and its let you down. But I can see your personal attacking style inevitably creeping into the thread, so I'll stop responding to you after this post. I have no desire to match you insult for insult in continuing posts.
I find it interesting that you want to get the "death penalty aspect out of the way", then you fail to note any PvP game of worth that has an actual death penalty or penalties at all in it. Are you just not sure which ones have a death penalty, or are you aware but know the "penalty" is quite fluffilicious? A -2% hit to some stats like in AoC? A "time penalty" in Warhammer that lasts, oh say, for as long as it takes you to run back to the keep you just died at? Again, Wow, the game PvPers love to hate, actually has a penalty in their boring scenarios, which makes it IMPOSSIBLE for you to just run right back after dying, but each time you die you must wait LONGER before joining in again. For a carebear game, they sure put a nice halt on the mindless dying which leads to repetition in just about every PvP game, much better than something like Warhammer or AoC (and yes.. again... AoC is a PvP game at core, friend).
In fact, the only game I even see as remotely challenging if I were a pvp player (other than EVE Online) is Darkfall, a game where if you try and kill someone, you risk.. everything. But the funny thing is, the typical pvper will stay FAR away from that type of environment, because... it's simply TOO hard to exist in, even though they opine on about the "challenges" of human combat, lol. They prefer the carebear "charge, die, respawn, charge, die, respawn, charge, die, respawn" type of battles with no consequences. Sure sounds challenging!
You keep saying "human challenge", then you forget to note all the retards that you play alongside with that you are furiously typing in chat to "GET BACK!" or "HEAL ME!" or "ATTACK THAT SIDE, NOT THIS SIDE!" Whenver I played Pvp in those games, this is all you see, lol. I shudder to put Vent on in those pvp events, just to hear Nerd raging in the key of the Westminster Boy's Choir voices shouting orders. Thank God at least mobs don't talk and just grunt. I always found that the most entertaining part of any pvp; all the people nerd raging at each other and telling everyone you stink,, no YOU stink more, lol. You also fail to mention all the botting that goes on in those pvp events. Well, no WONDER the humans are more challenging... game mobs in PvE don't have access to scripting, exploits and hacks, lol!
You were seriously wrong about all PvE games because you don't know anything about FFXI, and that was pointed out. You lumped them all together to form your mob theories, but you do not realize each game is different. Anarchy Online is a joke. Age of Conan is a pvp game. Vanguard is broken and buggy since launch. And these games you are using as arguments against smart mobs? When given a clear example of a PvE game that requires actual teamwork to level due to mob difficulties, with very limited soloing opportunities and a risk/reward aspect, you simply pass it off as "I didn't play it full stop, because I don't like grinding." Interesting.
Again, you have failed to list any PvP game with an adequate risk/reward factor for competing in it. There is nothing to lose/gain except Epeen in the overwhelming majority of them. If this is someone's preferred method of self-gratification in gaming, that's fine as each person gets something different out of each game. But please do not try to pass this form off as achievements, when in most games you can just go along for the ride in your zerg and achieve the same "rewards" as the next dude, or hacking exists that make the "I'm more uber than you" ratings worthless anyways.
You've been mistaken about the capital and resources it takes to make a PvE game vs PvP in this thread. You've been mistaken about the brainpower it takes to design areas in a PvE game vs a PvP game. You've been mistaken about the pressure on companies to come up with new ideas for both games and why it's kindergartenly simple to see why companies choose designing PvP content over PvE content. Heck, in games like Halo or Call to Duty, average people with NO training can design areas to kill each other in.. that shows just how hard it is for anyone to design a PvP game, lol. Let's see these same types of folks try and design a dungeon, with actual WORKING mobs. Case closed.
I congratulate you on being a mob that has the honor of paying hard cash for the honor of having other people kill you, in a cardboard world, usually consisting of one or two main battle spots.
I couldn't care less. A good game is not defined by the type of foe your're facing, but by the amount of fun it can deliever.
Why am I enjoying Colin McRae DiRT as much as LotRO, and LotRO as much as I once enjoyed Eye of the Beholder II, and why do I still at times enjoy Eye of the Beholder II while also loving Dungeon Keeper... ?
It's because these games rock. If someone pushes a FFA PvP game out of the door that kicks ass, like EvE, I won't shed a tear for any PvE game I ever played; and if next year someone releases a top notch PvE experience, like LotRO did, I won't care about any friggin PvP.
It all boils down to this. A concept, PvP or PvE, determines _nothing_, a game rocks when all its pieces come together and provide fun.
I have to say it. PvP has never been that popular as a MMO base. Reasons being mostly it's virtually impossible to balance propperly. While true PvP requires less time on developing content that time is more than doubled trying to find a balance between the different classes and skill trees and the such. Sure on paper it looks easy enough but once you start looking deeper into how you impliment the balance that's what takes the time and then you have to figure out the billions of ways 100,000 people can find to exploit certain loopholes in the execution of the mechanics and the only way to do that is to release the game to 100,000 people and see what they do. Suddenly what looked balanced on paper is a comple mess and then start the rounds of nerfs buffs customer loss and everything else.
Lets face it the MMO pool was very small until someone came along with a fairly well executed PvE game (WOW). Say what you like about how it didn't bring anything new or all of that. What it did bring was a bunch of mechanics we had seen before in different games but melded together in such a way that it actually worked. It deserves it's status as the 800 pound gorilla sitting in the MMO startup zone clobbering the newbs as they log in.
Of the current crop of recent releases of PvP games I'll say this. Warhammer looks like it has a decent start on the competion for the time being. 300,000 odd subs isn't anything to sneeze at and provides a good base to grow from if they keep updating they way they have been. Problems could arise from the fact that unfortunatly the MMO consumer isn't exactly renowned for their patients and as such people are expecting way to much to happen way to quickly. AOC same problem everyone rushed to level 80 and then complained that there wasn't any guild built forts. Well duh there arn't any forts because you have to build them.
PvP gamers need to get out of their rush to endgame mentality and slow down and hang with the casuals a bit more that way when you eventually get to endgame what do you there are lots of people there and it's one big endgame PvP fest. If more people had played WAR and evan AOC that way as in take it easy and enjoy the content in bits and pieces instead of rushing ahead then they wouldn't be bored now and they would find plenty of people to fight with and PvP would be interesting and they wouldn't be demanding more PvE content to keep them occupied until more people make it to end game.
The lesser of two evils is still evil.
There is nothing more dangerous than a true believer.
Ok firstly lets get the "death penalty" part out of the way. The death penalty aspect of a game applies to both PvE and PvP aspects of games so why are you even bringing it up? All you are doing is simply highlighting the fact that mmos have become easier over the years and more "carebear" oriented. Yeah I dont like that either as it leads to crappy players not giving a shit about anything and generally meaningless trivial gameplay (eg WAR).......but what has this got to do with the whole PvE vs PvP thing? Nothing. Ok you really like FFXI. I get it. Then you start ranting on about players that cant play "challenging PvE content" because their minds are somehow twisted by PvP games. What the hell are you talking about?!You're being a complete lunatic and making yourself sound like an idiot. You really hate PvP with a passion dont you.....to such a degree that you start frothing at the mouth, turning red in the face and preaching absolute gibberish like some kind of religious bible bashing nutcase.
Well, it was a fairly decent discussion up to this point, and I hoped you had somewhat changed your personality since your old Warhammer Defending days since you now think Warhammer isn't so hot and its let you down. But I can see your personal attacking style inevitably creeping into the thread, so I'll stop responding to you after this post. I have no desire to match you insult for insult in continuing posts.
Actually I apologise for that as it was rather insulting and overly aggressive. Slap on the wrist for me.
But......Warhammer Defending? Where on earth did you get that from?! I despise the game and have never defended it. Warhammer is a bland brainless pile of shit that has been modelled on WoW and then simplified even further to make it accessible to extremely young children and lazy people. Its just a level grinding treadmill in which players can grind up by doing shit PvE or shit PvP. Why would I defend a game like that?.......especially as it gives an extremely bad impression of PvP in a game.......which you have jumped all over.
I find it interesting that you want to get the "death penalty aspect out of the way", then you fail to note any PvP game of worth that has an actual death penalty or penalties at all in it. Are you just not sure which ones have a death penalty, or are you aware but know the "penalty" is quite fluffilicious? A -2% hit to some stats like in AoC? A "time penalty" in Warhammer that lasts, oh say, for as long as it takes you to run back to the keep you just died at? Again, Wow, the game PvPers love to hate, actually has a penalty in their boring scenarios, which makes it IMPOSSIBLE for you to just run right back after dying, but each time you die you must wait LONGER before joining in again. For a carebear game, they sure put a nice halt on the mindless dying which leads to repetition in just about every PvP game, much better than something like Warhammer or AoC (and yes.. again... AoC is a PvP game at core, friend).
You're COMPLETELY ignoring what I said in my last post. Yes I failed to mention any dcent PvP games. I DELIBERATELY failed to mention any because apart from EVE there are'nt any. I thought I made that pretty clear. The PvP in WAR is absolutely terrible and the same goes for the PvP in other mmos (again.....apart from EVE) and yet you keep referring to them as reasons for PvP being bad and attracting bad styles of play. Dont you get it yet? I agree with you! These games suck!
.....and who said PvPers hate WoW? You seem to like making a hell of a lot of assumptions about people you dont even know. Actually the PvP in WoW is sadly one of the best offerings in an mmo......which is precisely why we need some decent mmos with good PvP in them. Thats why I'm keeping my fingers crossed for Earthrise and Fallen Earth and possibly Crusades.
In fact, the only game I even see as remotely challenging if I were a pvp player (other than EVE Online) is Darkfall, a game where if you try and kill someone, you risk.. everything. But the funny thing is, the typical pvper will stay FAR away from that type of environment, because... it's simply TOO hard to exist in, even though they opine on about the "challenges" of human combat, lol. They prefer the carebear "charge, die, respawn, charge, die, respawn, charge, die, respawn" type of battles with no consequences. Sure sounds challenging!
Typical PvPer? Whats that exactly? I like PvP in games and yet I hate what is currently offered in mmos. You need to stop generalising in your anti-PvP crusade. Its just silly. You have no idea what thousands of INDIVIDUALS like and dislike so stop pretending that you do.
You keep saying "human challenge", then you forget to note all the retards that you play alongside with that you are furiously typing in chat to "GET BACK!" or "HEAL ME!" or "ATTACK THAT SIDE, NOT THIS SIDE!" Whenver I played Pvp in those games, this is all you see, lol. I shudder to put Vent on in those pvp events, just to hear Nerd raging in the key of the Westminster Boy's Choir voices shouting orders. Thank God at least mobs don't talk and just grunt. I always found that the most entertaining part of any pvp; all the people nerd raging at each other and telling everyone you stink,, no YOU stink more, lol. You also fail to mention all the botting that goes on in those pvp events. Well, no WONDER the humans are more challenging... game mobs in PvE don't have access to scripting, exploits and hacks, lol!
I agree that the majority of people I encounter in these games are absolute morons which I have no desire to communicate with........yet in fact even then I am just generalising as I have not spoken to all of them. They are just people. Some of them are twats and some of them are good people. You dont seriously believe that all the cool intelligent people play PvE games do you? I meet the same level of twats who talk complete shit in the chat channels (heh dude look at my new +10 sword! Cool! Lets go and kill the boss again and farm him over and over! Yay! this is fun LOLZ. You suck dude cos you dont have the epic purple sword that I have). Like I said the morons you despise in those so-called PvP games are also the morons you play PvE games with......or havent you realised that yet?
However thats not what I was talking about. Even a stupid person provides a more interesting and varied challenge over a mob with simplistic AI. A person can make decisions on the fly but an AI can only "react" to what you do in a simplistic manner.
As for botting, why the hell would I mention that? Whats that got to do with anything? Oh of course we have never seen any bots in a PvE game have we. Oh no no. In fact your logic is completely back to front because bots are more likely to be found in PvE games than PvP games (even though there arent any proper PvP games around) farming loot and harvesting materials from the computer opponents with their simplistic AI. Actually the game you praise so much (FFXI) is a prime example of a bot infestation.
You were seriously wrong about all PvE games because you don't know anything about FFXI, and that was pointed out. You lumped them all together to form your mob theories, but you do not realize each game is different. Anarchy Online is a joke. Age of Conan is a pvp game. Vanguard is broken and buggy since launch. And these games you are using as arguments against smart mobs? When given a clear example of a PvE game that requires actual teamwork to level due to mob difficulties, with very limited soloing opportunities and a risk/reward aspect, you simply pass it off as "I didn't play it full stop, because I don't like grinding." Interesting.
Oh of course I havent played FFXI so therefore all the other games I have played dont count. What a joke!
The games I used as examples are common and popular mmos. The only game you can bring up which allegedly has great mob AI is FFXI and yet what you described was a load of crap. All you talked about was aggro ranges which is exactly what all the mobs in all the other mmos have. Sight, smell, sound.......aggro ranges. Nothing more. A human player is still a much more challenging opponent than any dumb mob from FFXI or any other game.
Oh and you dont like the fact that I referred to games which give a bad example of PvE........and yet all the games you referred to as examples of PvP (AoC, WAR, WoW etc) are also shiity examples of PvE games with PvP added as an afterthought. Oh but its ok when you use crap games as examples right? The fact remains that the AI in all of these mmos (yet again......apart from EVE which actually has superior AI.....especially with their upcoming expansion) is piss poor and doesnt even come close to the challenge that a human opponent can provide. Trying to say that a human opponent is less challenging than a simplistic script is just dumb.
Oh and no AoC is a PvE game. It has PvP as an optional feature until you reach the end of the game. Otherwise how did I play through the first 30 levels of the game without having to fight a player? It tells a scripted story just like any other mmo and the killing of players plays no part in that story. Thats why the PvP available in the main PvE section of the game is so meaningless and pointless. It simply hasnt been integrated into the design of the game and was just "turned on" on some servers to try and appease the people who want to fight each other......which only results in high level players ganking low level ones......yet another example of badly designed PvP being shoved into a PvE game.......an example which people such as yourself love to use in the "PvP cannot succeed" crusade.
Again, you have failed to list any PvP game with an adequate risk/reward factor for competing in it. There is nothing to lose/gain except Epeen in the overwhelming majority of them. If this is someone's preferred method of self-gratification in gaming, that's fine as each person gets something different out of each game. But please do not try to pass this form off as achievements, when in most games you can just go along for the ride in your zerg and achieve the same "rewards" as the next dude, or hacking exists that make the "I'm more uber than you" ratings worthless anyways.
....and again like I already said before I didnt list any games with a decent PvP system as there arent any (sigh.....apart from EvE.....sigh) and I was never trying to pass the PvP off in these games as some kind of achievement. I said the complete opposite of that in fact. Please stop bringing it up over and over again because its really tiresome having to constantly correct your mistake.
Do you seriously think people would be playing these shitty games if something decent was available? I dont think they would........and yet you think its a bad thing that PvP is appearing more and more in games. Games have to start somewhere ya know. The craptastic offerings that we have in games like WoW, WAR, AoC etc are just the beginning steps. I never played UO but I hear it originally had fairly good PvP in it although it still sounds like it was a gank fest to me. Darkfall is the first game that I have seen that is a genuine PvP game (it actually occurred to someone to not have levels in a game? Gosh!) and yet I certainly dont think it is the be all and end all of PvP games. Its just the disposable PvP footsoldier that has been sent to test the waters. I think other PvP offerings which follow it will be much better......although some will of course still be crap as well but that goes for anything.
Ok so far we have EvE and Darkfall for genuine solid PvP. Well thats great! We really are spoilt for choice arent we. In contrast every other mmo is a PvE game......and yet you are crying about how the genre seems to heading towards PvP and mourning the slow demise of PvE. Oh boo hoo! The internet allows devs to create fantasy worlds in which the players can fight battles against each other as well as the computer and the devs are waking up to this. Get used to it.
You've been mistaken about the capital and resources it takes to make a PvE game vs PvP in this thread. You've been mistaken about the brainpower it takes to design areas in a PvE game vs a PvP game. You've been mistaken about the pressure on companies to come up with new ideas for both games and why it's kindergartenly simple to see why companies choose designing PvP content over PvE content. Heck, in games like Halo or Call to Duty, average people with NO training can design areas to kill each other in.. that shows just how hard it is for anyone to design a PvP game, lol. Let's see these same types of folks try and design a dungeon, with actual WORKING mobs. Case closed.
Case closed? I dont think so. Case opened. Mistaken about the capital and resources involved in making mmos? Care to give me the facts and figures then? Thats gonna be interesting to see you do that......especially considering that the only PvP games around at the moment are EVE and Darkfall. All the others are PvE games with PvP arenas dumped in them. Of course those PvP arenas are gonna be crap. They were just added as an afterthought.
.....and you seriously try and say that a PvE game such as WoW or EQ2 has better level design than a game like Halo or CoD where players have to use tactics and the terrain against each other?! Ha ha ha ha. Thats pretty funny.
In fact I would love to play a game that has the level design of those games, the reaction-based PvP action they offer AND the mobs........oh hang on a sec. They DO have all of those things. Clearly you have never played the campains in Halo or CoD. The AI for the mobs in those games pisses all over anything in any mmo. Your logic (or lack of it) fails.
Case closed.
I congratulate you on being a mob that has the honor of paying hard cash for the honor of having other people kill you, in a cardboard world, usually consisting of one or two main battle spots.
I congratulate you on being a mob that has the honour of paying hard cash for the honour having other mobs with simplistic AI kill you, in a cardboard world, consisting of rooms filled with static graphics of people who offer you brain dead tasks to farm the mobs all dressed up in a story that was written by the developers children as a joke.
"Greetings fair adventurer. My fields are being ravaged by smelly beetles. I cannot do anything about them as my feet have unfortunately been nailed into the ground. If you kill 10 of them (it MUST be 10.....no more and no less) then I will reward you with 10 copper pieces and these old shoes. I cannot wear them now for obvious reasons. Beware! These beetles are ferocious and clever beasts and you will find it challenging to defeat them. They will use uncanny tactics to surprise and defeat you. They can detect you from as far as 3 meters away! They will run at you and bite you repeatedly until either you or they are dead. Once they are slain though you can take pride in the fact that you have achieved something truly awesome and your name shall be sung across the land as the great hero who killed 10 smelly beetles and won the Old Farmers Stinky Boots. (mutter mutter).....and so will everyone else.....(mutter mutter sucker mutter)"
.....yeah the development costs for writing this kind of shit must be high indeed lol
While you are quite right, you are forgetting SWTOR. , a game that is worth of "If anything will dethrone WOW - this will" (And this time for real) So a game heading towards future industry lead , and its almost completely PVE based
PVE based with ZERO player economy...
I don't want to care about some stupid player economy. I fyou want to craft and do stuff go out into the real world and get a job. Im gonna be busy exploring worlds and doing quest and seeing stories.
Hold on Snow Leopard, imma let you finish, but Windows had one of the best operating systems of all time.
If the Powerball lottery was like Lotro, nobody would win for 2 years, and then everyone in Nebraska would win on the same day. And then Nebraska would get nerfed.-pinkwood lotro fourms
AMD 4800 2.4ghz-3GB RAM 533mhz-EVGA 9500GT 512mb-320gb HD
The most successful game of all time is a PVE game at its core. Most of the successful competitors are PVE games. Why then are the new games coming out PVP oriented? Because so many PVE oriented games have failed when trying to go up against the big boys that developers have stopped trying and are settling into niches.
PVE games are not dead. They are most certainly not dying. They aren't even a little feverish. On the contrary...PVE games are where the HUGE money is. It's just very very hard to break into that market right now.
PvP and PvE are not mutually exclusive of one another if you build them in from the beginning. What is not good is bolting PvP onto a game which was PvE in origin but the company are after more subscriptons.
Its the same argument with themepark and sandbox. Elements of both can be in one single game. Most people veer between such playstyles anyways.
I don't want to care about some stupid player economy. I fyou want to craft and do stuff go out into the real world and get a job. Im gonna be busy exploring worlds and doing quest and seeing stories.
Yes, lets eliminate other peoples playstyle just because it doesn't fit yours.
/endsarcasm
*rolls eyes*
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
Comments
I dont totally agree that PvP content neccessarily requires less effort to make because it naturally has to involve a degree of PvE content to give players something to participate in. Also because it is more heavily player driven there is more scope for new unforeseen situations to occur which the devs will need to keep an eye on. Its more volatile in other words. In a pure PvE game its pretty much the same journey every time. Yes there is more "content" but that content is actually just the same stuff replicated most of the time with a bunch of text files thrown in to make the lore fans go "Oh wow! What a deep game!"
Otherwise everything in white text seems very insightful to me.
The red text is however a load of bollocks.......unless of course you can produce some facts and figures to back it up. Otherwise its just pure guess work as you have absolutely no way of knowing what EVERY gamer prefers. The whole "PvPers are a loud and vocal minority" is so old. Its that typical put-down that PvE players use to try and make the PvP fans seem like angry raging lunatics and in turn try and make themselves come across as superior, calm and more intelligent players.
The "incredibly vocal PvPers" you are referring to are also the people you play PvE games alongside........and dont say that the majority of the PvE players are happily playing the PvE games currently on the market. A large number of them are on these forums a lot of the time because they are bored to death with what is on offer.
Completely agree with you
In LOTRO - originally there was no plan for PVP. Than they added kind of PVP called monster play.
They promised that they will never nerf player class to balance PVP.
Yet monster play grew in popularity. And notable PVE class - Burglar - became to powerful. Because its Stealth class.
So it was nerfed...
Now , stealth was never problem in PVE. Its simple gameplay choice. Its fun for people that like it. And its never overpowered in PVE.
But burglars got so nerfed - they fall into least wanted class. Nobody plays them anymore.
And this is how PVP punished players that never wanted PVP and therefore choose PVE game.
Ah but if less people are interested in playing a burglar as a result of being nerfed due to the PvP aspect of the game, does it really matter at all to the players who are only interested in the PvE aspect? The PvE players are effectively immersed in their own personal world in which its them against the computer. Why should it matter to those individuals what other people are doing? In a pure PvE game the actions of the players dont really have any impact on anything anyway. Its effectively just an interactive online book and the "story" doesnt care if there are a million guardians, minstrels, wardens etc and only 10 burglars. The individual can still read the story.
Star wars the old republic sounds like its going to be a mainly pve game with pvp secondary because the devs say thats its going to be a heavily story driven.
I think pvp should be something that happens by chance in the open world like in the middle of doing a pve event and not in some battleground or scenario.
apart that it isnt rly an mmorpg.. and while most of us hoped that it will be new king.. most of us knows now.. thats its gona be online single player game with fees.. i wonder will there be any sort of pvp/pve.. as their combat is .. what they called.. cant recall now.. but it wont work in any 5v1 dungeons or 20 v1 raids.. and i doubt there will be pvp.. apart endless solo dungeons.. on which whole game is based..
apart that it isnt rly an mmorpg.. and while most of us hoped that it will be new king.. most of us knows now.. thats its gona be online single player game with fees.. i wonder will there be any sort of pvp/pve.. as their combat is .. what they called.. cant recall now.. but it wont work in any 5v1 dungeons or 20 v1 raids.. and i doubt there will be pvp.. apart endless solo dungeons.. on which whole game is based..
Your so wrong, let me guess swg vet?
The key thing is Cheap and easy to design a Crappy PVP game where everything is based off of some FPS scenario and heavily instanced left and right. A good PVP game requires a lot of money and a solid group of designers to make sure that everything is balanced properly and to continue to expand the options of the players in how they are able to fight thier own wars, and don't think that PVPers don't reognize good immersion as well. Problem is the current group of so called PVP centered games have done everything but be PVP centered games. They have been poorly done PVE game mechanics with the same tacked on PVP game mechanics that are available in PVE games now. When that changes you might see things a bit different.
Except for Warhammer, which was mediocre, that entire list is crap, garbage, junk. I wouldn't care if those games had PvP, or PvE, or just PP, so I don't think you can extrapolate a trend from a long list of crap.
The only decent game on the horizon is TOR, and I don't know if it's going to focus on PvP at all. If it does, cool, but obviously the game is geared towards PvE.
Are you saying you want more raiding end games? If that's what ya want, cool, I hope some developers make 'em for ya. But I'll take RvR and end game PvP over raiding any day. Just not in the crap form you listed.
apart that it isnt rly an mmorpg.. and while most of us hoped that it will be new king.. most of us knows now.. thats its gona be online single player game with fees.. i wonder will there be any sort of pvp/pve.. as their combat is .. what they called.. cant recall now.. but it wont work in any 5v1 dungeons or 20 v1 raids.. and i doubt there will be pvp.. apart endless solo dungeons.. on which whole game is based..
Your so wrong, let me guess swg vet?
nop.. never played any of starwars mmos.. i might be wrong, never said in that post that im 100% right.. its just what i known from info that been on web , and didnt do any research.. please prove me wrong..
A lot of people including game developers seem to think all PvP'ers want to do is run around mindlessly killing other players. If i wanted to do that i would play TF2, CoD etc. Here's a quote from another forum that sums up what i want.
"Those player-driven situations form friendships, enemies, alliances, etc...Politics and drama are born...These are what PvPers want...PvP as an integral part of the game. If we just wanted pure PvP in a scenario minigame, then we wouldnt be playing MMO's."
I am looking forward to SW:TOR just too see how a story driven mmo will turn out (liking all Bioware games helps). I have nothing against PvE games but whilst i enjoyed it in the past i now find mob AI a poor substitute for actual people. That and it seems new mmo's are so solo friendly there is little point in grouping which is one of the reasons i play mmo's.
I am hoping Earthrise can deliver a decent PvP game.
Except for Warhammer, which was mediocre, that entire list is crap, garbage, junk. I wouldn't care if those games had PvP, or PvE, or just PP, so I don't think you can extrapolate a trend from a long list of crap.
The only decent game on the horizon is TOR, and I don't know if it's going to focus on PvP at all. If it does, cool, but obviously the game is geared towards PvE.
Are you saying you want more raiding end games? If that's what ya want, cool, I hope some developers make 'em for ya. But I'll take RvR and end game PvP over raiding any day. Just not in the crap form you listed.
what the hell is tor.., and its community who changed aoc from pve game to pvp game.. as they whined enough at funcom.. so they changed focus in middevelpment.. and result you all saw.. broken pve raids.. broken pvp , broken sieges.. rushed release.. ( rather not enough time after switching focus )
Except for Warhammer, which was mediocre, that entire list is crap, garbage, junk. I wouldn't care if those games had PvP, or PvE, or just PP, so I don't think you can extrapolate a trend from a long list of crap.
The only decent game on the horizon is TOR, and I don't know if it's going to focus on PvP at all. If it does, cool, but obviously the game is geared towards PvE.
Are you saying you want more raiding end games? If that's what ya want, cool, I hope some developers make 'em for ya. But I'll take RvR and end game PvP over raiding any day. Just not in the crap form you listed.
what the hell is tor.., and its community who changed aoc from pve game to pvp game.. as they whined enough at funcom.. so they changed focus in middevelpment.. and result you all saw.. broken pve raids.. broken pvp , broken sieges.. rushed release.. ( rather not enough time after switching focus )
Current Star Wars MMO in development, The Old Republic, based on the Knights of the Old Republic game world.
It's using the Hero Engine.
Completely agree with you
In LOTRO - originally there was no plan for PVP. Than they added kind of PVP called monster play.
They promised that they will never nerf player class to balance PVP.
Yet monster play grew in popularity. And notable PVE class - Burglar - became to powerful. Because its Stealth class.
So it was nerfed...
Now , stealth was never problem in PVE. Its simple gameplay choice. Its fun for people that like it. And its never overpowered in PVE.
But burglars got so nerfed - they fall into least wanted class. Nobody plays them anymore.
And this is how PVP punished players that never wanted PVP and therefore choose PVE game.
Exactly. If you add things to a game that origionally people never would have agreed with you get an overall crap game. That an the main plan for that game gets quite watered down, I mean sure there can be exceptions, but I have yet to see one when it comes to core changes to a game. *cough*SWG-nge*cough* Sorry.. time for a cough drop.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
I agree with neon in this matter. There is no way one can truly "know" where the majority lie. However, just due to logical reasoning I could say that the "jaded" gamers are actually the majority. But there's a good reason I say this. Because I know many friends online and real life that I would stick in the jaded section just due to the fact that they are getting sick of everything being rehashed.
Furthermore, even when they are jaded towards those mmos, those people still play those games just due to it having some degree of fun and mostly just to play with their friends. Lets be serious with ourselves for a brief moment.. how many mmo games would have bit the dust if there wasn't a good community or friends were not there?
Well said neon.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
I dont totally agree that PvP content neccessarily requires less effort to make because it naturally has to involve a degree of PvE content to give players something to participate in. Also because it is more heavily player driven there is more scope for new unforeseen situations to occur which the devs will need to keep an eye on. Its more volatile in other words. In a pure PvE game its pretty much the same journey every time. Yes there is more "content" but that content is actually just the same stuff replicated most of the time with a bunch of text files thrown in to make the lore fans go "Oh wow! What a deep game!"
Otherwise everything in white text seems very insightful to me.
The red text is however a load of bollocks.......unless of course you can produce some facts and figures to back it up. Otherwise its just pure guess work as you have absolutely no way of knowing what EVERY gamer prefers. The whole "PvPers are a loud and vocal minority" is so old. Its that typical put-down that PvE players use to try and make the PvP fans seem like angry raging lunatics and in turn try and make themselves come across as superior, calm and more intelligent players.
The "incredibly vocal PvPers" you are referring to are also the people you play PvE games alongside........and dont say that the majority of the PvE players are happily playing the PvE games currently on the market. A large number of them are on these forums a lot of the time because they are bored to death with what is on offer.
I'm one of those vocal PvPers, freely admitted. As for facts, try the subscription numbers or heck try any one of a number of surveys done over the years. A great guy by the name of Nick Yee has a wonderful site and is one of many who have spent a great deal of time analyzing the demographics and sociology of MMO players. You may not want to admit it, heck I'm not entirely thrilled with it many times myself, but it *is* a fact that the majority of the current MMO playerbase doesn't want much if anything to do with PvP in any form, regardless of risks, rewards or incentives. There is a ton of evidence, survey-based, subscription based and anecdotal to back that up. Now, that is something that might possibly be changable - especially if anyone manages to really attract the FPS/console players...but they are not in large part *in* the current MMO market. That's one reason why so many are going for the "persistant fps" gimmick right now - it's easier to try and grow a new segment of the market than compete with the established big boys.
As for the dev investment difference, you simply don't understand the process and what goes into each if you think PvE "raid" content doesn't take a LOT more time than what passes for PvP in these games. Yes there are class balance issues and mechanics issues, but that is true of either form. With what most of these games are passing off as PvP, all you have is zone design - aside from graphics and pathing issues there isn't much to it. Use WAR for an example, their PvP zones are *empty* of NPC life aside from the keep guards/lords and their combat scripting is pathetically simple compared to say the old Temple of Veeshan in EQ or even the Burning Crusade HQ in WoW. The dev thinking on PvP zones is simple - enemy players provide all the challenge...so they don't spend days/weeks working up encounters that can challenge 6,12,24+ players at a time over and over.
Oh and those "boxes of text" you so casually dismiss take the most time of all - try writing creative and interesting dialogues sometime...or engaging quest lines....the *good* PVE MMOs invest an amazing amount of time and resources into that...the bad ones show it and tend to fail.
Thanks for the interesting viewpoints.
I would say firstly, I do not believe it is possible to "gank" a mob. One thing I have noticed in many PvE games, is that mobs all have different 'sensiblities'. You have some mobs that will aggro you from really far off, some that have moderate ranges and some that let you sneak right up on them. To classify all mobs in all games as being stupid, would make me wonder exactly what type of PvE games you have played.. and for how long.
For example, the way you are describing PvE action, I can tell right off you have never have leveled a character to 75 in FFXI. You believe all mobs act the same, so therefore there is no challenge and its all rehash.
Anyone who has played Final Fantasy for any length of time will tell you right off you are gravely mistaken. There are zones which have mobs that SMELL you, so you need a spell called "Deodorize" or a potion you have to have crafted. Some mobs have SIGHT aggro, so unless you are invis, you are dead. Some have SOUND aggro, Sneak Oils needed if you are a melee. Running through an undead mob zone? Better not have a cut on your character (low health).. undeads there will sense your low health and aggro you. A lot of fun fighting two mobs, then one walks by and can't see, hear or smell you... but knows you are dying and joins in. And the best... some mobs have a different combination of all of these, or all of them. You have to be on your toes going through zones, wondering if your spell will last, or if you have enough pots to get out alive, because when you die, you lose exp. Now imagine doing this in a zone where you are leveling up near all these different types of mobs, and you say "no challenge"?
This is a PvE game where you go BACKWARDS for dying against a mob, leveling up OR boss fighting. You can level up with your group for an hour, then die two times and lose a huge chunk of what you gained. DE-LEVELING and going from level 60 to level 59 if you lose too much exp isn't built into today's pvp MMOs, again EVE being the exception. Even WoW has a death penalty in its PvP where you can't do THAT, lol. This type of PvE game is so challenging and teamwork sensitive, that soloists do not last long, or cannot get very far. This game has broken many younger players who wanted to "solo to 75". They quit because they were forced to rely on others, and could not work in a team, because they prefer the Hero PvP style of play, where all they care about is finishing high in the point totals for loot or bragging rights on some rating site. There is no reason why a PvE mmo cannot be made to be as challenging as this again. It just takes companies too much... work, so they opt this easy PvP route. Capture the Skull, Capture the Keep, Capture the Base, Capture the Zone. Capture The Wallet is more like it.
Now, pick any pvp MMO (other than EVE).. where is the death penalty? Where is the challenge or the ultimate penalty for trying to fight someone higher than you? There is none. WAR you die, rez at the camp, then run back into the battle in less than 10 minutes in many cases to attack again. Talk about rinse and repeat.. There is NO death penalty in AoC.. rez, put your buffs back on. If you don't go back and get your tombstone, you get penalized a whopping.. -2%; that will wear off in 30 mins. Guild Wars? No penalty. I never played DAOC, but was there a death penalty or any reason for people to have caution before doing Leroy Jenkins charges? Or daring each other to run into the boss' lair for a hoot? You know.. for a genre that claims challenges that are far superior against people than in dungeons, there sure is little risk on the line in the vast majority of these PvP games. Someone mentioned earlier about PvE being carebear, but compared to no RISK, idk.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Thanks for the interesting viewpoints.
You took that sentence completely out of context as it was originally in response to another poster who used the exact same words to describe PvP.......but no worries I wont lose to much sleep over it.......and yes you can gank a mob. Of course you can. You see it standing there waiting to be killed by you and you get to choose whether to slaughter it or not. If its too tough then you dont go near it and if its about level with you or an easy kill then you can go and rip its head off with ease because you know exactly how its going to react and what its going to do. It will do the same thing every time.......run at you and start bashing you.....or if its a spellcaster or ranged attacker it will stand and start shooting you. You dont get that level of certainty with a human player.
I would say firstly, I do not believe it is possible to "gank" a mob. One thing I have noticed in many PvE games, is that mobs all have different 'sensiblities'. You have some mobs that will aggro you from really far off, some that have moderate ranges and some that let you sneak right up on them. To classify all mobs in all games as being stupid, would make me wonder exactly what type of PvE games you have played.. and for how long.
Ok lets take a few typical PvE games like EQ2, WoW, AoC, Anarchy Online and Vanguard. You're got trying to seriously suggest that the mobs in those games act intelligently are you? Yes some of them dont attack you unless they are provoked such as a deer in EQ2 or a hopping bunny rabbit in WoW. Some will attack you when you walk within an aggro range and yes that aggro range can vary. Big deal. Some of the mobs in WoW will run away when they are low on health and if they pass within range of another aggressive mob then they will aggro you too. This is a nice touch but it hardly passes for intelligent behaviour. Its still pretty basic AI. So basicly.....mobs have different aggro ranges. Ok. In those 5 games (which are all well known PvE games) would I classify the mobs as being intelligent? Definately not. They are all dumb as fuck and are basicly walking bags of exp and loot waiting to be farmed by the players.
But how long must I play these games before I encounter truly awe inspiring AI then? Must I dedicate my life to one of them for several years? How about half a year? Is that enough. To be honest I have never played any mmo long enough to reach the almighty end game content because they always get so god damn boring. I remember in WoW I got to level 48 before my brain melted from the boredom of fighting the dumb mobs over and over again which ARE all the same (ie different graphic, same bullshit). In EQ2 it was the same experience......dumb mobs aggro you and run and bash you......in fact in that game you can click on the mobs and see exactly which ones are going to attack you before you commit yourself to fighting them. It doesnt matter if its a snake, a skeleton, an orc or a giant - it will run at you and attack you and will also chase you at high speed if you decide to leg it (why the hell would a snake chase you up a mountain range?!). I think that game killed me with the tedium somewhere before level 40. In AoC......actually I think I will stop now because I think you get the point. The AI for mobs in mmos is basicly piss poor. They are there to feed the player with exp and loot......basicly they are fuel for the players level progression and are only there to give people something to click on as they progress through the badly written stories which pass for content in these games. However the way mobs in mmos can switch to attack the biggest threat IS a nice touch.......but it hardly classes them as intelligent opponents as players are able to "manage aggro" (a common term in PvE mmos) as they know what the mobs are going to do. You dont get this with a human player......although that depends of course on the intelligence of the human involved.
For example, the way you are describing PvE action, I can tell right off you have never have leveled a character to 75 in FFXI. You believe all mobs act the same, so therefore there is no challenge and its all rehash.
Thats correct. In fact I have never played FFXI full stop. It is well known for its endless grinding and I really have no desire to play it.
Anyone who has played Final Fantasy for any length of time will tell you right off you are gravely mistaken. There are zones which have mobs that SMELL you, so you need a spell called "Deodorize" or a potion you have to have crafted. Some mobs have SIGHT aggro, so unless you are invis, you are dead. Some have SOUND aggro, Sneak Oils needed if you are a melee. Running through an undead mob zone? Better not have a cut on your character (low health).. undeads there will sense your low health and aggro you. A lot of fun fighting two mobs, then one walks by and can't see, hear or smell you... but knows you are dying and joins in. And the best... some mobs have a different combination of all of these, or all of them. You have to be on your toes going through zones, wondering if your spell will last, or if you have enough pots to get out alive, because when you die, you lose exp. Now imagine doing this in a zone where you are leveling up near all these different types of mobs, and you say "no challenge"?
OK the smell, sight and sound ideas are nice twists but you are still talking about aggro ranges. Its still the same thing really. There are just different items which turn off the relevant aggro range. Its a bit different but its not really all that clever is it.
Challenging? Perhaps it is if you choose to try and navigate through a field of "objects" that are basicly landmines that will go off when you pass within their intricate web of individual aggro ranges.
I will choose a field full of players any day thanks as I would rather enjoy myself rather than pitting myself against a collection of simplistic motion sensors.
This is a PvE game where you go BACKWARDS for dying against a mob, leveling up OR boss fighting. You can level up with your group for an hour, then die two times and lose a huge chunk of what you gained. DE-LEVELING and going from level 60 to level 59 if you lose too much exp isn't built into today's pvp MMOs, again EVE being the exception. Even WoW has a death penalty in its PvP where you can't do THAT, lol. This type of PvE game is so challenging and teamwork sensitive, that soloists do not last long, or cannot get very far. This game has broken many younger players who wanted to "solo to 75". They quit because they were forced to rely on others, and could not work in a team, because they prefer the Hero PvP style of play, where all they care about is finishing high in the point totals for loot or bragging rights on some rating site. There is no reason why a PvE mmo cannot be made to be as challenging as this again. It just takes companies too much... work, so they opt this easy PvP route. Capture the Skull, Capture the Keep, Capture the Base, Capture the Zone. Capture The Wallet is more like it.
Ok firstly lets get the "death penalty" part out of the way. The death penalty aspect of a game applies to both PvE and PvP aspects of games so why are you even bringing it up? All you are doing is simply highlighting the fact that mmos have become easier over the years and more "carebear" oriented. Yeah I dont like that either as it leads to crappy players not giving a shit about anything and generally meaningless trivial gameplay (eg WAR).......but what has this got to do with the whole PvE vs PvP thing? Nothing. Ok you really like FFXI. I get it.
Then you start ranting on about players that cant play "challenging PvE content" because their minds are somehow twisted by PvP games. What the hell are you talking about?! You're being a complete lunatic and making yourself sound like an idiot. You really hate PvP with a passion dont you.....to such a degree that you start frothing at the mouth, turning red in the face and preaching absolute gibberish like some kind of religious bible bashing nutcase.
You also seem to have this thing about focusing on all the worst aspects of PvP. Why is that? Capture this and capture that? Lets apply that to a PvE game shall we.
Capture the Mobs Loot, Capture the Quest Objective, Capture the Static Button disguised as Object, Capture the Boss Room.
Good PvP is more than just silly little mini-games. Lets focus on some good PvP games shall we. Now lets see theres......ummm......well theres that really good one called......errm......oh hang on a sec. They're all a load of shit arent they!.....apart from EvE obviously which you mention below. We havent seen ANY mmos that have well implemented PvP in their game design. They are all just PvE games with crap PvP added onto them. Its either "Go here into this area where you can kill each other for exp and rewards" or "Fuck it! You can just kill each for no reason at all". THIS is why you hate PvP so much. Its because you have never played a good PvP mmo. Neither have I. Unlike you though I have not allowed this to clowd my judgement. In fact it makes me look forward with great anticipation to the future mmos. You look at them and think "Oh no more PvP games. They will be just like the shitty ones we currently have" while I think "Oh great more PvP games. More opportunities for a dev company to actually make a good one for a change". Why dont you just quit all the doom and gloom nay saying and stop clinging to the past. People WILL play games with and against each other because its human nature to be competitive and its also what the internet is obviously fully capable of. People want to have more choice than just EvE and they will get it sooner or later.
Now, pick any pvp MMO (other than EVE).. where is the death penalty? Where is the challenge or the ultimate penalty for trying to fight someone higher than you? There is none. WAR you die, rez at the camp, then run back into the battle in less than 10 minutes in many cases to attack again. Talk about rinse and repeat.. There is NO death penalty in AoC.. rez, put your buffs back on. If you don't go back and get your tombstone, you get penalized a whopping.. -2%; that will wear off in 30 mins. Guild Wars? No penalty. I never played DAOC, but was there a death penalty or any reason for people to have caution before doing Leroy Jenkins charges? Or daring each other to run into the boss' lair for a hoot? You know.. for a genre that claims challenges that are far superior against people than in dungeons, there sure is little risk on the line in the vast majority of these PvP games. Someone mentioned earlier about PvE being carebear, but compared to no RISK, idk.
I totally agree. The PvP you describe in these games is bullshit. Its trivial and meaningless. The lack of any death penalty makes it completely pointless. This also completely applies to PvE games too. You die, you rez, you run back and in less than 10 minutes you are having the same fight all over again. Rinse and repeat? Yeah thats mmos for you. Thats not something specific to PvP though is it.
However its more than just the death penalty that makes these games crap. Its the complete lack of any ability to change ANYTHING in the game which makes it all so pointless. When this gets mentioned people claim that the point of games is just to have fun.......and yet its only fun for a person who doesnt want any form of risk or challenge in their game. For me I want to play an mmo which has meaningful gameplay, for example a game with faction based PvP (and PvE too!) in which the actions of players from my faction can cause the game world to change and have a lasting effect on the other players. No I dont mean shitty global buffs. I mean something along the lines of taking over a temple, fighting our way into its centre (PvE if you like), activating a magic artifact inside it and causing a portal to open elsewhere in the game world which might spew out demons that attack players in that part of the world or even provide access to a different area for those players. Just an idea. There are loads of things that could be done.
You mentioned WAR. This a prime example of extremely bad and totally meaningless PvP. In fact its not a PvP game at all. Its a casual PvE game with PvP playpens plonked in it. Everything in the game is optional and absolutely nothing matters. The only thing anyone can do in a game like that is go up levels and collect gear......which is precisely what its players focus (what else have they got to do?). The PvP in that game is just another optional way to do that. Games like this (and in fact ALL mmos apart from EvE) are simply examples of how badly thought out game design and shitty PvP game mechanics can ruin a game.
But yeah PvP in mmos has indeed been a total let down. However thats more reason to have more of it as I really want to see a game where it is done well. It works fine for EVE......although I think a dynamic mmo which successfully incorporates good intelligent and well written PvE (sorry but games like EQ2, WoW etc are just childish bullshit......get a real author who has written books for grown ups to write it) with "meaningful" well-designed and well-implemented PvP which allows for realistic roleplaying decisions to take place and shape the game world will be truly awesome. Once someone pulls this off then people will laugh at all the mmos they have been playing.
Wall of text hits you for 25,000 damage. You die. You respawn. You come straight back and read it all again........
Wall of text hits you for 25,000 damage. You die. You respawn. You come straight back and read it all again........
(You active Text Suppression Shield)
Wall of text hits you for 0 damage. You gain 500 exp, a Generic Item + 10 and the "False Sense of Achievement" buff which last for 10 minutes.
Well, it was a fairly decent discussion up to this point, and I hoped you had somewhat changed your personality since your old Warhammer Defending days since you now think Warhammer isn't so hot and its let you down. But I can see your personal attacking style inevitably creeping into the thread, so I'll stop responding to you after this post. I have no desire to match you insult for insult in continuing posts.
I find it interesting that you want to get the "death penalty aspect out of the way", then you fail to note any PvP game of worth that has an actual death penalty or penalties at all in it. Are you just not sure which ones have a death penalty, or are you aware but know the "penalty" is quite fluffilicious? A -2% hit to some stats like in AoC? A "time penalty" in Warhammer that lasts, oh say, for as long as it takes you to run back to the keep you just died at? Again, Wow, the game PvPers love to hate, actually has a penalty in their boring scenarios, which makes it IMPOSSIBLE for you to just run right back after dying, but each time you die you must wait LONGER before joining in again. For a carebear game, they sure put a nice halt on the mindless dying which leads to repetition in just about every PvP game, much better than something like Warhammer or AoC (and yes.. again... AoC is a PvP game at core, friend).
In fact, the only game I even see as remotely challenging if I were a pvp player (other than EVE Online) is Darkfall, a game where if you try and kill someone, you risk.. everything. But the funny thing is, the typical pvper will stay FAR away from that type of environment, because... it's simply TOO hard to exist in, even though they opine on about the "challenges" of human combat, lol. They prefer the carebear "charge, die, respawn, charge, die, respawn, charge, die, respawn" type of battles with no consequences. Sure sounds challenging!
You keep saying "human challenge", then you forget to note all the retards that you play alongside with that you are furiously typing in chat to "GET BACK!" or "HEAL ME!" or "ATTACK THAT SIDE, NOT THIS SIDE!" Whenver I played Pvp in those games, this is all you see, lol. I shudder to put Vent on in those pvp events, just to hear Nerd raging in the key of the Westminster Boy's Choir voices shouting orders. Thank God at least mobs don't talk and just grunt. I always found that the most entertaining part of any pvp; all the people nerd raging at each other and telling everyone you stink,, no YOU stink more, lol. You also fail to mention all the botting that goes on in those pvp events. Well, no WONDER the humans are more challenging... game mobs in PvE don't have access to scripting, exploits and hacks, lol!
You were seriously wrong about all PvE games because you don't know anything about FFXI, and that was pointed out. You lumped them all together to form your mob theories, but you do not realize each game is different. Anarchy Online is a joke. Age of Conan is a pvp game. Vanguard is broken and buggy since launch. And these games you are using as arguments against smart mobs? When given a clear example of a PvE game that requires actual teamwork to level due to mob difficulties, with very limited soloing opportunities and a risk/reward aspect, you simply pass it off as "I didn't play it full stop, because I don't like grinding." Interesting.
Again, you have failed to list any PvP game with an adequate risk/reward factor for competing in it. There is nothing to lose/gain except Epeen in the overwhelming majority of them. If this is someone's preferred method of self-gratification in gaming, that's fine as each person gets something different out of each game. But please do not try to pass this form off as achievements, when in most games you can just go along for the ride in your zerg and achieve the same "rewards" as the next dude, or hacking exists that make the "I'm more uber than you" ratings worthless anyways.
You've been mistaken about the capital and resources it takes to make a PvE game vs PvP in this thread. You've been mistaken about the brainpower it takes to design areas in a PvE game vs a PvP game. You've been mistaken about the pressure on companies to come up with new ideas for both games and why it's kindergartenly simple to see why companies choose designing PvP content over PvE content. Heck, in games like Halo or Call to Duty, average people with NO training can design areas to kill each other in.. that shows just how hard it is for anyone to design a PvP game, lol. Let's see these same types of folks try and design a dungeon, with actual WORKING mobs. Case closed.
I congratulate you on being a mob that has the honor of paying hard cash for the honor of having other people kill you, in a cardboard world, usually consisting of one or two main battle spots.
"TO MICHAEL!"
I couldn't care less. A good game is not defined by the type of foe your're facing, but by the amount of fun it can deliever.
Why am I enjoying Colin McRae DiRT as much as LotRO, and LotRO as much as I once enjoyed Eye of the Beholder II, and why do I still at times enjoy Eye of the Beholder II while also loving Dungeon Keeper... ?
It's because these games rock. If someone pushes a FFA PvP game out of the door that kicks ass, like EvE, I won't shed a tear for any PvE game I ever played; and if next year someone releases a top notch PvE experience, like LotRO did, I won't care about any friggin PvP.
It all boils down to this. A concept, PvP or PvE, determines _nothing_, a game rocks when all its pieces come together and provide fun.
M
I have to say it. PvP has never been that popular as a MMO base. Reasons being mostly it's virtually impossible to balance propperly. While true PvP requires less time on developing content that time is more than doubled trying to find a balance between the different classes and skill trees and the such. Sure on paper it looks easy enough but once you start looking deeper into how you impliment the balance that's what takes the time and then you have to figure out the billions of ways 100,000 people can find to exploit certain loopholes in the execution of the mechanics and the only way to do that is to release the game to 100,000 people and see what they do. Suddenly what looked balanced on paper is a comple mess and then start the rounds of nerfs buffs customer loss and everything else.
Lets face it the MMO pool was very small until someone came along with a fairly well executed PvE game (WOW). Say what you like about how it didn't bring anything new or all of that. What it did bring was a bunch of mechanics we had seen before in different games but melded together in such a way that it actually worked. It deserves it's status as the 800 pound gorilla sitting in the MMO startup zone clobbering the newbs as they log in.
Of the current crop of recent releases of PvP games I'll say this. Warhammer looks like it has a decent start on the competion for the time being. 300,000 odd subs isn't anything to sneeze at and provides a good base to grow from if they keep updating they way they have been. Problems could arise from the fact that unfortunatly the MMO consumer isn't exactly renowned for their patients and as such people are expecting way to much to happen way to quickly. AOC same problem everyone rushed to level 80 and then complained that there wasn't any guild built forts. Well duh there arn't any forts because you have to build them.
PvP gamers need to get out of their rush to endgame mentality and slow down and hang with the casuals a bit more that way when you eventually get to endgame what do you there are lots of people there and it's one big endgame PvP fest. If more people had played WAR and evan AOC that way as in take it easy and enjoy the content in bits and pieces instead of rushing ahead then they wouldn't be bored now and they would find plenty of people to fight with and PvP would be interesting and they wouldn't be demanding more PvE content to keep them occupied until more people make it to end game.
The lesser of two evils is still evil.
There is nothing more dangerous than a true believer.
Well, it was a fairly decent discussion up to this point, and I hoped you had somewhat changed your personality since your old Warhammer Defending days since you now think Warhammer isn't so hot and its let you down. But I can see your personal attacking style inevitably creeping into the thread, so I'll stop responding to you after this post. I have no desire to match you insult for insult in continuing posts.
Actually I apologise for that as it was rather insulting and overly aggressive. Slap on the wrist for me.
But......Warhammer Defending? Where on earth did you get that from?! I despise the game and have never defended it. Warhammer is a bland brainless pile of shit that has been modelled on WoW and then simplified even further to make it accessible to extremely young children and lazy people. Its just a level grinding treadmill in which players can grind up by doing shit PvE or shit PvP. Why would I defend a game like that?.......especially as it gives an extremely bad impression of PvP in a game.......which you have jumped all over.
I find it interesting that you want to get the "death penalty aspect out of the way", then you fail to note any PvP game of worth that has an actual death penalty or penalties at all in it. Are you just not sure which ones have a death penalty, or are you aware but know the "penalty" is quite fluffilicious? A -2% hit to some stats like in AoC? A "time penalty" in Warhammer that lasts, oh say, for as long as it takes you to run back to the keep you just died at? Again, Wow, the game PvPers love to hate, actually has a penalty in their boring scenarios, which makes it IMPOSSIBLE for you to just run right back after dying, but each time you die you must wait LONGER before joining in again. For a carebear game, they sure put a nice halt on the mindless dying which leads to repetition in just about every PvP game, much better than something like Warhammer or AoC (and yes.. again... AoC is a PvP game at core, friend).
You're COMPLETELY ignoring what I said in my last post. Yes I failed to mention any dcent PvP games. I DELIBERATELY failed to mention any because apart from EVE there are'nt any. I thought I made that pretty clear. The PvP in WAR is absolutely terrible and the same goes for the PvP in other mmos (again.....apart from EVE) and yet you keep referring to them as reasons for PvP being bad and attracting bad styles of play. Dont you get it yet? I agree with you! These games suck!
.....and who said PvPers hate WoW? You seem to like making a hell of a lot of assumptions about people you dont even know. Actually the PvP in WoW is sadly one of the best offerings in an mmo......which is precisely why we need some decent mmos with good PvP in them. Thats why I'm keeping my fingers crossed for Earthrise and Fallen Earth and possibly Crusades.
In fact, the only game I even see as remotely challenging if I were a pvp player (other than EVE Online) is Darkfall, a game where if you try and kill someone, you risk.. everything. But the funny thing is, the typical pvper will stay FAR away from that type of environment, because... it's simply TOO hard to exist in, even though they opine on about the "challenges" of human combat, lol. They prefer the carebear "charge, die, respawn, charge, die, respawn, charge, die, respawn" type of battles with no consequences. Sure sounds challenging!
Typical PvPer? Whats that exactly? I like PvP in games and yet I hate what is currently offered in mmos. You need to stop generalising in your anti-PvP crusade. Its just silly. You have no idea what thousands of INDIVIDUALS like and dislike so stop pretending that you do.
You keep saying "human challenge", then you forget to note all the retards that you play alongside with that you are furiously typing in chat to "GET BACK!" or "HEAL ME!" or "ATTACK THAT SIDE, NOT THIS SIDE!" Whenver I played Pvp in those games, this is all you see, lol. I shudder to put Vent on in those pvp events, just to hear Nerd raging in the key of the Westminster Boy's Choir voices shouting orders. Thank God at least mobs don't talk and just grunt. I always found that the most entertaining part of any pvp; all the people nerd raging at each other and telling everyone you stink,, no YOU stink more, lol. You also fail to mention all the botting that goes on in those pvp events. Well, no WONDER the humans are more challenging... game mobs in PvE don't have access to scripting, exploits and hacks, lol!
I agree that the majority of people I encounter in these games are absolute morons which I have no desire to communicate with........yet in fact even then I am just generalising as I have not spoken to all of them. They are just people. Some of them are twats and some of them are good people. You dont seriously believe that all the cool intelligent people play PvE games do you? I meet the same level of twats who talk complete shit in the chat channels (heh dude look at my new +10 sword! Cool! Lets go and kill the boss again and farm him over and over! Yay! this is fun LOLZ. You suck dude cos you dont have the epic purple sword that I have). Like I said the morons you despise in those so-called PvP games are also the morons you play PvE games with......or havent you realised that yet?
However thats not what I was talking about. Even a stupid person provides a more interesting and varied challenge over a mob with simplistic AI. A person can make decisions on the fly but an AI can only "react" to what you do in a simplistic manner.
As for botting, why the hell would I mention that? Whats that got to do with anything? Oh of course we have never seen any bots in a PvE game have we. Oh no no. In fact your logic is completely back to front because bots are more likely to be found in PvE games than PvP games (even though there arent any proper PvP games around) farming loot and harvesting materials from the computer opponents with their simplistic AI. Actually the game you praise so much (FFXI) is a prime example of a bot infestation.
You were seriously wrong about all PvE games because you don't know anything about FFXI, and that was pointed out. You lumped them all together to form your mob theories, but you do not realize each game is different. Anarchy Online is a joke. Age of Conan is a pvp game. Vanguard is broken and buggy since launch. And these games you are using as arguments against smart mobs? When given a clear example of a PvE game that requires actual teamwork to level due to mob difficulties, with very limited soloing opportunities and a risk/reward aspect, you simply pass it off as "I didn't play it full stop, because I don't like grinding." Interesting.
Oh of course I havent played FFXI so therefore all the other games I have played dont count. What a joke!
The games I used as examples are common and popular mmos. The only game you can bring up which allegedly has great mob AI is FFXI and yet what you described was a load of crap. All you talked about was aggro ranges which is exactly what all the mobs in all the other mmos have. Sight, smell, sound.......aggro ranges. Nothing more. A human player is still a much more challenging opponent than any dumb mob from FFXI or any other game.
Oh and you dont like the fact that I referred to games which give a bad example of PvE........and yet all the games you referred to as examples of PvP (AoC, WAR, WoW etc) are also shiity examples of PvE games with PvP added as an afterthought. Oh but its ok when you use crap games as examples right? The fact remains that the AI in all of these mmos (yet again......apart from EVE which actually has superior AI.....especially with their upcoming expansion) is piss poor and doesnt even come close to the challenge that a human opponent can provide. Trying to say that a human opponent is less challenging than a simplistic script is just dumb.
Oh and no AoC is a PvE game. It has PvP as an optional feature until you reach the end of the game. Otherwise how did I play through the first 30 levels of the game without having to fight a player? It tells a scripted story just like any other mmo and the killing of players plays no part in that story. Thats why the PvP available in the main PvE section of the game is so meaningless and pointless. It simply hasnt been integrated into the design of the game and was just "turned on" on some servers to try and appease the people who want to fight each other......which only results in high level players ganking low level ones......yet another example of badly designed PvP being shoved into a PvE game.......an example which people such as yourself love to use in the "PvP cannot succeed" crusade.
Again, you have failed to list any PvP game with an adequate risk/reward factor for competing in it. There is nothing to lose/gain except Epeen in the overwhelming majority of them. If this is someone's preferred method of self-gratification in gaming, that's fine as each person gets something different out of each game. But please do not try to pass this form off as achievements, when in most games you can just go along for the ride in your zerg and achieve the same "rewards" as the next dude, or hacking exists that make the "I'm more uber than you" ratings worthless anyways.
....and again like I already said before I didnt list any games with a decent PvP system as there arent any (sigh.....apart from EvE.....sigh) and I was never trying to pass the PvP off in these games as some kind of achievement. I said the complete opposite of that in fact. Please stop bringing it up over and over again because its really tiresome having to constantly correct your mistake.
Do you seriously think people would be playing these shitty games if something decent was available? I dont think they would........and yet you think its a bad thing that PvP is appearing more and more in games. Games have to start somewhere ya know. The craptastic offerings that we have in games like WoW, WAR, AoC etc are just the beginning steps. I never played UO but I hear it originally had fairly good PvP in it although it still sounds like it was a gank fest to me. Darkfall is the first game that I have seen that is a genuine PvP game (it actually occurred to someone to not have levels in a game? Gosh!) and yet I certainly dont think it is the be all and end all of PvP games. Its just the disposable PvP footsoldier that has been sent to test the waters. I think other PvP offerings which follow it will be much better......although some will of course still be crap as well but that goes for anything.
Ok so far we have EvE and Darkfall for genuine solid PvP. Well thats great! We really are spoilt for choice arent we. In contrast every other mmo is a PvE game......and yet you are crying about how the genre seems to heading towards PvP and mourning the slow demise of PvE. Oh boo hoo! The internet allows devs to create fantasy worlds in which the players can fight battles against each other as well as the computer and the devs are waking up to this. Get used to it.
You've been mistaken about the capital and resources it takes to make a PvE game vs PvP in this thread. You've been mistaken about the brainpower it takes to design areas in a PvE game vs a PvP game. You've been mistaken about the pressure on companies to come up with new ideas for both games and why it's kindergartenly simple to see why companies choose designing PvP content over PvE content. Heck, in games like Halo or Call to Duty, average people with NO training can design areas to kill each other in.. that shows just how hard it is for anyone to design a PvP game, lol. Let's see these same types of folks try and design a dungeon, with actual WORKING mobs. Case closed.
Case closed? I dont think so. Case opened. Mistaken about the capital and resources involved in making mmos? Care to give me the facts and figures then? Thats gonna be interesting to see you do that......especially considering that the only PvP games around at the moment are EVE and Darkfall. All the others are PvE games with PvP arenas dumped in them. Of course those PvP arenas are gonna be crap. They were just added as an afterthought.
.....and you seriously try and say that a PvE game such as WoW or EQ2 has better level design than a game like Halo or CoD where players have to use tactics and the terrain against each other?! Ha ha ha ha. Thats pretty funny.
In fact I would love to play a game that has the level design of those games, the reaction-based PvP action they offer AND the mobs........oh hang on a sec. They DO have all of those things. Clearly you have never played the campains in Halo or CoD. The AI for the mobs in those games pisses all over anything in any mmo. Your logic (or lack of it) fails.
Case closed.
I congratulate you on being a mob that has the honor of paying hard cash for the honor of having other people kill you, in a cardboard world, usually consisting of one or two main battle spots.
I congratulate you on being a mob that has the honour of paying hard cash for the honour having other mobs with simplistic AI kill you, in a cardboard world, consisting of rooms filled with static graphics of people who offer you brain dead tasks to farm the mobs all dressed up in a story that was written by the developers children as a joke.
"Greetings fair adventurer. My fields are being ravaged by smelly beetles. I cannot do anything about them as my feet have unfortunately been nailed into the ground. If you kill 10 of them (it MUST be 10.....no more and no less) then I will reward you with 10 copper pieces and these old shoes. I cannot wear them now for obvious reasons. Beware! These beetles are ferocious and clever beasts and you will find it challenging to defeat them. They will use uncanny tactics to surprise and defeat you. They can detect you from as far as 3 meters away! They will run at you and bite you repeatedly until either you or they are dead. Once they are slain though you can take pride in the fact that you have achieved something truly awesome and your name shall be sung across the land as the great hero who killed 10 smelly beetles and won the Old Farmers Stinky Boots. (mutter mutter).....and so will everyone else.....(mutter mutter sucker mutter)"
.....yeah the development costs for writing this kind of shit must be high indeed lol
PVE based with ZERO player economy...
I don't want to care about some stupid player economy. I fyou want to craft and do stuff go out into the real world and get a job. Im gonna be busy exploring worlds and doing quest and seeing stories.
Hold on Snow Leopard, imma let you finish, but Windows had one of the best operating systems of all time.
If the Powerball lottery was like Lotro, nobody would win for 2 years, and then everyone in Nebraska would win on the same day.
And then Nebraska would get nerfed.-pinkwood lotro fourms
AMD 4800 2.4ghz-3GB RAM 533mhz-EVGA 9500GT 512mb-320gb HD
The most successful game of all time is a PVE game at its core. Most of the successful competitors are PVE games. Why then are the new games coming out PVP oriented? Because so many PVE oriented games have failed when trying to go up against the big boys that developers have stopped trying and are settling into niches.
PVE games are not dead. They are most certainly not dying. They aren't even a little feverish. On the contrary...PVE games are where the HUGE money is. It's just very very hard to break into that market right now.
PvP and PvE are not mutually exclusive of one another if you build them in from the beginning. What is not good is bolting PvP onto a game which was PvE in origin but the company are after more subscriptons.
Its the same argument with themepark and sandbox. Elements of both can be in one single game. Most people veer between such playstyles anyways.
Yes, lets eliminate other peoples playstyle just because it doesn't fit yours.
/endsarcasm
*rolls eyes*
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci