I don't want to care about some stupid player economy. I fyou want to craft and do stuff go out into the real world and get a job. Im gonna be busy exploring worlds and doing quest and seeing stories.
Yes, lets eliminate other peoples playstyle just because it doesn't fit yours.
/endsarcasm
*rolls eyes*
Yeah lets do just that.
I have no desire to buy my wares from Uncle Owen in his pink panties.
I wanna get my items from the mobs I am slaughtering wholesale.
What makes it even greater is the number of Sims/"sandbox" players that call names at Adventure gamers...then expect that we would want to have them sharing games with us.
PvE adventure games stand on their own. We dont need Uncle Owen...the same cannot be said the other way around.
For Uncle Owen to have content, then adventures have to be forced to deal with Sims players. Disrupting what we want in the first place, and even taking Dev time away from producing content besides.
No thanks
Let Uncle Owen stay on unemployment, and let the Simmers that play Uncle Owen *censored*
I get enough of their holier than thou attitude, not to mention their childish foot stomping on message boards...I sure dont wanna share a MMO with em.
Sims players match up with PvP gamers as their gaming styles mesh. I wish they would quit trying to saddle their playstyle on PvE games.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
I don't want to care about some stupid player economy. I fyou want to craft and do stuff go out into the real world and get a job. Im gonna be busy exploring worlds and doing quest and seeing stories.
Yes, lets eliminate other peoples playstyle just because it doesn't fit yours.
/endsarcasm
*rolls eyes*
Yeah lets do just that.
I have no desire to buy my wares from Uncle Owen in his pink panties.
I wanna get my items from the mobs I am slaughtering wholesale.
What makes it even greater is the number of Sims/"sandbox" players that call names at Adventure gamers...then expect that we would want to have them sharing games with us.
PvE adventure games stand on their own. We dont need Uncle Owen...the same cannot be said the other way around.
For Uncle Owen to have content, then adventures have to be forced to deal with Sims players. Disrupting what we want in the first place, and even taking Dev time away from producing content besides.
No thanks
Let Uncle Owen stay on unemployment, and let the Simmers that play Uncle Owen *censored*
I get enough of their holier than thou attitude, not to mention their childish foot stomping on message boards...I sure dont wanna share a MMO with em.
Sims players match up with PvP gamers as their gaming styles mesh. I wish they would quit trying to saddle their playstyle on PvE games.
Thats rather over dramatic dont ya think? No-ones playstyle is being forced on anyone else at all. Its not like you MUST buy a crafters player made items. If you only want to use stuff that drops off a monster then you are free to do that and you can happily ignore any items on the market made by players.......even though that doesnt make any sense. All you do is look it up on the market......which again you are free to ignore. You dont have to actually walk into a player run shop and buy an item anyway.....and who cares if you did? It would be just the same thing as buying something from a computer controlled vendor.......or do you have an irrational mental block against that as well? You're just deliberately talking nonsense to try and be funny and create some drama.
Besides it makes more sense for an adventurer to buy his equipment. I would much rather play a game where the monsters dont drop magical items all the time simply because it doesnt make any sense. If you fight a load of manky old goblins then you should end up with a bunch of old smelly loincloths, a few dead rats and a bunch of badly made "stikkas" and clubs. Real magical items would be forged by skilled crafters and given as gifts for grand deeds done or sold for lots of money.
Sims players match up with PvP players? That doesnt make any sense at all but then that seems to be the general theme of your post.......and no-one is trying to "saddle" their playstyle with anything. Only the devs can do that. PvE only game? Thats a single player game you're talking about......maybe with multiplayer mode added. The internet is capable of much more than hosting multiplayer single player games so why waste its potential by doing just that?
PvP and PvE are not mutually exclusive of one another if you build them in from the beginning. What is not good is bolting PvP onto a game which was PvE in origin but the company are after more subscriptons. Its the same argument with themepark and sandbox. Elements of both can be in one single game. Most people veer between such playstyles anyways.
You are the voice of reason. I totally agree. Its so ridiculous that people have formed their own factions on these forums. You're either in the PvE faction or the PvP faction, the Themepark faction or the Sandbox faction, the Crafters faction or the Monster Killer faction, the Levelgrinder faction or the Storyreader faction. If you like one particular playstyle then oh no no you cant possibly like the "opposing" playstyle. Dont you dare cross over that fence!
Yeah I miss the good ole days and I still play DAoC, AO and Eve.
The mmorpg scene went to shit after the release of World of Warcraft entered our lives. SWG Pre-Cu was the best game I ever played and still have the most memories in. WoW definetly kicked ass the 1st year of release, but went to total garbage (imo) when burning crusade was released.
With the introduction to console gamers like the xbox and playstation, corporate companys want more money by attracting that type of clientel to the pc gaming scene as well.
I miss a good ole fashion mmorpg, but apparently we have to change with the times, because the mmo's we grew up with, would not stand a chance in todays market.
Companys are looking for the next big thing, will it happen anytime soon?
I think it will probably be a mmorpg game we all under estimated.
The most successful game of all time is a PVE game at its core. Most of the successful competitors are PVE games. Why then are the new games coming out PVP oriented? Because so many PVE oriented games have failed when trying to go up against the big boys that developers have stopped trying and are settling into niches.
PVE games are not dead. They are most certainly not dying. They aren't even a little feverish. On the contrary...PVE games are where the HUGE money is. It's just very very hard to break into that market right now.
The most successful game of all time is a PvE game at its core? Hmmm.....now could that have anything to do with the fact that........
NEARLY EVERY MMO IS A PVE GAME!!!
We only have one decent mmo which was originally built around PvP and thats EVE......and even that game has a load of PvE elements to it. Oh and I suppose you could chuck Ultima Online in there as well which is over 10 years old.....but thats also built oroginally as a PvE game. Every other mmo which has PvP in it has been originally designed as a PvE game. The PvP elements were just added on as an extra......which is why PvP has such a bad rep in mmos because its always crap and it doesnt work.
What we need is a developer to build a game that incorporates both playstyles into its game so well that people forget about comparing the two. The only reason people are choosing one side or the other on these forums is because all the games we have been playing have been deliberately keeping its PvE and PvP elements seperate.
You're a human and you've been given a quest from an npc to go and ransack that temple up in the mountains? Ok fair enough. Lets go up to the temple then. Oh whats this? Its got a goblin tribe living in and around it. Lets start killing them.
You're a goblin and an npc in your village just started giving out a new quest that wasnt available before. Whats this? He says that the village scouts have just got word of an impending expedition being sent out from the human city down in the lowlands. It seems they are interested in our holy temple. Better make sure none of them get inside and steal any of our shinies.
Of course if there were no goblin players near the shrine when the human player/s took that quest then it would be a straight forward PvE experience. However if any goblin players were near the shrine and got wind of what the pesky humans were up to then they might try and organise the temples defence. Then again both sides might be able to come to some kind of compromise which could lead to alternative peaceful solutions to the quests.
How would that not be fun?
Pure PvE game? Stuff that!
Pure PvP game? Stuff that too!
Mixture of both? Hmmm a realistic roleplaying game! Now that would be a first!
Originally posted by HiGHPLaiNS To the OP.. Welcome to the world of MMOFPSRPG.. Yeah I miss the good ole days and I still play DAoC, AO and Eve. The mmorpg scene went to shit after the release of World of Warcraft entered our lives. SWG Pre-Cu was the best game I ever played and still have the most memories in. WoW definetly kicked ass the 1st year of release, but went to total garbage (imo) when burning crusade was released. With the introduction to console gamers like the xbox and playstation, corporate companys want more money by attracting that type of clientel to the pc gaming scene as well. I miss a good ole fashion mmorpg, but apparently we have to change with the times, because the mmo's we grew up with, would not stand a chance in todays market. Companys are looking for the next big thing, will it happen anytime soon? I think it will probably be a mmorpg game we all under estimated. Heres to the future of mmorpgs! GOODLUCK!
I'm not ready to blame WoW yet for the mess the MMO scene is in right now content wise. I did sub to WoW for 6 months and I had a good time while playing it. I did not find it vapid or "kiddie" as the snobbish usually say, and I'm not ashamed to say I did have fun there. The quests were written pretty good, with lots of little inside jokes that were tailored to the U.S. culture (I remember in TBC, a NPC named Haris Pilton selling overpriced jewelry in Shatt, lol). They had lots of little things like that but most people who said it was too easy a game, never read the quests much or got the jokes. They probably just clicked through the dialogue, then ran straight through the quest, looking for the next one. I found all the classes in WoW to work well (at least the ones I played) and the dungeons were nicely done with twists and not able to do without reading guides on them beforehand. I found the pvp to be ok and just the break I needed when I did it. I did not buy WOTLK though, but I hear the PvP is way better than it was because of the destruction you can do to buildings and the balanced sides.
The fact that all these other companies want to follow a successful formula like WoW and botch it up, isn't WoW's fault for me. I actually am happy WoW did so well, because I know there are tons of people playing MMOs now I meet in different walks of life, who would never think to play them before WoW. And because of them, there is more investment into MMOs. The problem I have is seeing where the allocations are headed in the future. Away from small squad group play, dependant on huge, zerg Pvp style play.
I just wish the genre wouldn't pander to the easy buck with the PvP so much. PvP was always a small slice of gamers in MMOs, so I don't know why they feel everyone all of a sudden wants to do that so urgently, because I don't see any polling data to support that by and large. As I said before, people usually go to console games or FPS for that kind of fun.. they'll never get those folks anyways. Too many of those people like playing for free, or don't feel they can afford $15 a month.
The plethora of PvP games is more about a backlash (though perhaps not so dramatic) to all the PvE games that are out.
Well, it's nice to know I'm completely incorrect. I really hate to do anything half baked.
The endgame PvP games that are releasing this year are not coming out as some 'reactionary force to the status quo'. The MMO market has nothing to do with ideologies... its about gaming and what companies think they can sell for the least amount of capital outlay.
Companies know that they can make a PvE based game anytime, but that requires a TON of writing, questing and dungeon designing, artists, etc. This process takes infinitely longer than say, whipping up a "Capture the Flag" scenario in a PvP mmo and is FAR cheaper too. Nothing really tough about maintaining "zone flipping" once the simple mechanic is in place, nor is it revolutionary. You really don't need an immersive world for a PvP player. Design your instance or zone, you can even paint it on and it doesn't matter. It's not like a typical pvper will really look around and go notice how the water or clouds are moving, or think "Wow, those trees are amazing!" They are too busy watching for the zerg. They are not interested in an immersive experience, by and large.
PvP games are coming out because as has been said in this thread, far cheaper and easier to maintain. It gives the company vastly improved return on their investments and further "updates" don't require much manpower.
Nice to know you do everything full forced!
It's not about some game companies adopting ideologies and then making decisions about that. just as the music companies didn't adopt any sort of ideology when they changed gears time and time again.
It is most definitely about the audience (players in this case) and what the game companies sense as to what they want.
Just as you say.
but it most definitely is about how humans are. They get tired of one thing, look for something new, that becomes the status quo and then the cycle continues.
So you have the music of the 50's rock and roll which is different from the music of the 40's and incorporates elements of blues and jazz. Then it evolves to music of the 60's which is different as it doesn't involve the simplistic rock rhythms and harmonies, starts dealing with more serious subjects as early rock subject matter is rather direct and simple.
Then unrest happens, a lot of social issues and the music of the 70's is born. The 80's is a reaction to the 60's and 70's and almost a revisitation of the sensibilities of the 50's with more fun subject matter and musical materials. But this can't sustain itself and you get another era starting in the 90's with more serious music, grunge, etc. rap of the 70's and 80's starts to widen it's audience.
But with games it's more difficult because it's very young. There are technical hurdles to overcome.
Still the gameplay continues, evolves and then reacts to what has gone before. You will not see pvp games as being a dominant force at all going forward and the death of PvE. Especially since the dominant games at the moment are PvE. Wow is not going to die any time soon. Neither are EQ II and LOTRO.
To be honest, besides Lineage II in the east (as it doens't have nearly the same popularity here) Eve is the reigning pvp game.
All these upcoming pvp games have yet to prove themselves.
What we do know is that regardless of PvP or PvE I think it's been shown that games always need some mix of both PvE and PvP.
And I will ammend my initial statement that you were completely wrong. I apologize. What I should have said and what is more correct (and what I should have stated in the first place) is that I completely disagree with you.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
What we do know is that regardless of PvP or PvE I think it's been shown that games always need some mix of both PvE and PvP.
Well, FFXI was a PvE based game, that had practically NO pvp in it. There was a small area that was barely used. That did not hurt the games subscriptions over the years and very few subscribers complained to Square Enix to put more of it in. That is a classic example of a PvE game not needed any PvP. So is LOTRO. So is EQ2. Vanguard, if it wasn't so half baked, would have not needed ANY pvp in it; the vast overwhelming majority who signed up wanted to A) Craft Group C) Raid. Because it was such a huge world, they wouldn't have needed it. Those games have some Pvp in it, but do not need it to survive.
I would even dare say, that if Wow did not put any PvP into it, it would still have record numbers and lead the industry by a wide margin. Wow does not succeed because it has PvP in it; it succeeds because it has a very strong casual base who love to quest and actually group with other people at its core. Duos, trios and full groups run constantly in WoW.. but there is also room to solo when people just want to do that.
So I'm not in total agreement with your statement there. I will say I DO agree with you that any PvP game needs a BASE of PvE though. Just like Guild Wars, a game which is solely made for PvP, has a PvE base for leveling. You can also just jump right in at max level and PvP from Day 1, but most people still desire to do PvE content. Even a pure PvP game like Darkfall has PvE needed, to some extent, but not for the hardcore who play it. So a PvP game NEEDS PvE, but not necessarily the other way around.
I would liek to make a game similar to a sandbox game like Darkfall without the PVP....
Let mobs loot your equipment, use it against you, let the mobs build their own camps, and as you clear out a mob, they re-locate.. etc.... Use the traditional RPG/FPS real time combat style that it uses, get rid of the targeting, etc.. Get rid of the level grinding and the class based systems as well..... Allow players to train in any skill, tame pets, hire NPC's, train in any skills they wish, build cities, hire guards, build boats, use them anyway to their advantage, by attacking mobs on land etc, let people go out and tame their mounts or buy them from a stable, etc, etc...... Disable the PvP, and you would probably have the greatest PvE game of all time... Add in PvP, and you get a game like Earthrise, Darkfall, or Mortal Online..
The MMO industry started off with sandbox games such as UO, PvP was not a feature in this game, as it was a social experiment, it was not intended to be a hardcore PvP game, it was meant to be a realistic version of a virtual world, there was full loot + you could attack and kill anyone, but that was not a feature, the freedom and player choice of UO was the feature... I wish someone would make another UO, I really would, just better, better as in FPS/RTS combat, naval combat, city building and a better world.. UO has it down though, you build a house right there on the map, customize it anyway you want to, and decorate it, it is the only game I have see where you DROP your items on the ground, and you can lock them down in your house so they don't go anywhere, you lock down anything from chests, furniture, anything you can get your hands on, and you can craft and pick up any furniture peice, etc, and it goes right into your backpack... From what I heard, Link Realms is like this....
www.linkrealms.com is going to apparently be a game where the players completely shape the world, everyone gets their own realm and in your realm, you build a house, and shape your realm anyway you want to with a map editing tool, and the monsters and NPC's in the game from what I hear are dynamic, they will raid your lands and your houses, you build forests, mountains, dungeons and mines with your map editing tool, and you set the rules of your realm, wether it has PvP, or full player loot, or none at all, and all the realms are linked together and are non-instanced, and there is no load screens, the game is also suppose to have many, many skills, in a classless, non-level based world... If Link Realms is like UO with better animation + graphics, and even more sand, then count me in..... I don't play a game for PvP, in Darkfall I wanted to be a merchant sailor, and that is exactly what I am!! I have no combat skills with my character, no magic, so far my mining is 70 and I got my weaponsmithing and armorsmithing skills to 60, in a game such as WoW, I am forced to pick this class, I have to level my character through PvE, in a game such as Darkfall, you level your character just by swining your weapon, shooting your arrow at a wall or shooting your spell into the sky, can raise your skills... Very realistic..... So on topic with WoW again, I pick a class and I am like, this sucks, why can't they make some kind of class for just crafting skills?? And then lol and behold, you can only pick two professions when you get to that point....
I guess I should say, I like PvE, I love it, I even like PvP, and I like crafting even more, which is why I play UO still, I consider UO the ultimate PvE/PVP game over any other... Even in its current WoWish state.. You can war guilds, join factions, fight for control over certain cities in factions which gives you benefit, fight your own guild members, etc.. It is not made of mini games, you do not have to grind to the end game content, cause there is no END GAME content in UO, games I have seen such as WoW have less content at the end game, even Age of Conan, they have no content.... UO on the other hand, has content, and it is all right there in front of your face, and there is so much you can do, so much possibilities, every day, something new, this is how you make content, so far UO is the only game that did it right throughout the years.... Sad to say, Trammel ruined it, but they still did a nice job with some features..
What we do know is that regardless of PvP or PvE I think it's been shown that games always need some mix of both PvE and PvP.
I would even dare say, that if Wow did not put any PvP into it, it would still have record numbers and lead the industry by a wide margin. Wow does not succeed because it has PvP in it; it succeeds because it has a very strong casual base who love to quest and actually group with other people at its core. Duos, trios and full groups run constantly in WoW.. but there is also room to solo when people just want to do that.
If this were true, then there is this game I used to play called Horzions with no PvP, should have 11 million subscribers right now... But this game was before WoW.. WoW had a good marketing stratedgy, a strong fan base from the warcraft games, etc.. MMO's were not really known and not very many people played MMO's before WoW..
What we do know is that regardless of PvP or PvE I think it's been shown that games always need some mix of both PvE and PvP.
I would even dare say, that if Wow did not put any PvP into it, it would still have record numbers and lead the industry by a wide margin. Wow does not succeed because it has PvP in it; it succeeds because it has a very strong casual base who love to quest and actually group with other people at its core. Duos, trios and full groups run constantly in WoW.. but there is also room to solo when people just want to do that.
If this were true, then there is this game I used to play called Horzions with no PvP, should have 11 million subscribers right now... But this game was before WoW.. WoW had a good marketing stratedgy, a strong fan base from the warcraft games, etc.. MMO's were not really known and not very many people played MMO's before WoW..
Just curious, but do you think Horizons was a well made game? I am not arguing for a PvE game that's trash, there are enough of those. But there is also good PvE heavy games that are very well made. No matter what the style of game, if its not made well, it won't DO well.. so perhaps Horizons fits in this category.
After all, Fury didnt do so hot as a pvp game, did it?
What we do know is that regardless of PvP or PvE I think it's been shown that games always need some mix of both PvE and PvP.
I would even dare say, that if Wow did not put any PvP into it, it would still have record numbers and lead the industry by a wide margin. Wow does not succeed because it has PvP in it; it succeeds because it has a very strong casual base who love to quest and actually group with other people at its core. Duos, trios and full groups run constantly in WoW.. but there is also room to solo when people just want to do that.
If this were true, then there is this game I used to play called Horzions with no PvP, should have 11 million subscribers right now... But this game was before WoW.. WoW had a good marketing stratedgy, a strong fan base from the warcraft games, etc.. MMO's were not really known and not very many people played MMO's before WoW..
Just curious, but do you think Horizons was a well made game? I am not arguing for a PvE game that's trash, there are enough of those. But there is also good PvE heavy games that are very well made. No matter what the style of game, if its not made well, it won't DO well.. so perhaps Horizons fits in this category.
After all, Asheron's Call or Fury didnt do so hot as a pvp game, did it?
I heard that Asheron's Call was very good int he beginning... Fury was a very laughable game, and it didn't appeal to myself or other people I knew who enjoyed PvP, it basically came down to whoever could button smash the fastest, wins.. I had to buy a new keyboard after playing that game because I messed it all up... In PvP, you need twitched based combat, this means real time combat, in either first or third person and first person shooter when it comes to spells and arrows, etc.... I hate grinding, I hate button smashing, I do not like the click and watch, I like doing everything manually like Elder Scrolls: Oblivion, or Fallout 3, the combat is more immserive this way, more fun, less grindish and it takes more player skills as you can block, dodge, etc, and it is all done manually.. This is how combat in a MMO should be, and this is what makes the "combat" in a game should work and it is rarely seen in a MMO..
If WoW had tactical, skill based combat, wether PvP or PvE, it does not matter, if this game allowed me to be a straight crafter and just work up my skills without leveling, if they had the kind of Real Time and FPS combat, then I would be all down for WoW... But I am not, it is not my kind of combat, the click and watch, spam a few spells, it is boring to me for some reason, I lose control of my character.. It is the same reason why I was never into the Final Fantasy games..
I don't want to care about some stupid player economy. I fyou want to craft and do stuff go out into the real world and get a job. Im gonna be busy exploring worlds and doing quest and seeing stories.
Yes, lets eliminate other peoples playstyle just because it doesn't fit yours.
/endsarcasm
*rolls eyes*
Yeah lets do just that.
I have no desire to buy my wares from Uncle Owen in his pink panties.
I wanna get my items from the mobs I am slaughtering wholesale.
What makes it even greater is the number of Sims/"sandbox" players that call names at Adventure gamers...then expect that we would want to have them sharing games with us.
PvE adventure games stand on their own. We dont need Uncle Owen...the same cannot be said the other way around.
For Uncle Owen to have content, then adventures have to be forced to deal with Sims players. Disrupting what we want in the first place, and even taking Dev time away from producing content besides.
No thanks
Let Uncle Owen stay on unemployment, and let the Simmers that play Uncle Owen *censored*
I get enough of their holier than thou attitude, not to mention their childish foot stomping on message boards...I sure dont wanna share a MMO with em.
Sims players match up with PvP gamers as their gaming styles mesh. I wish they would quit trying to saddle their playstyle on PvE games.
Thats rather over dramatic dont ya think? No-ones playstyle is being forced on anyone else at all. Its not like you MUST buy a crafters player made items. If you only want to use stuff that drops off a monster then you are free to do that and you can happily ignore any items on the market made by players.......even though that doesnt make any sense. All you do is look it up on the market......which again you are free to ignore. You dont have to actually walk into a player run shop and buy an item anyway.....and who cares if you did? It would be just the same thing as buying something from a computer controlled vendor.......or do you have an irrational mental block against that as well? You're just deliberately talking nonsense to try and be funny and create some drama.
Besides it makes more sense for an adventurer to buy his equipment. I would much rather play a game where the monsters dont drop magical items all the time simply because it doesnt make any sense. If you fight a load of manky old goblins then you should end up with a bunch of old smelly loincloths, a few dead rats and a bunch of badly made "stikkas" and clubs. Real magical items would be forged by skilled crafters and given as gifts for grand deeds done or sold for lots of money.
Sims players match up with PvP players? That doesnt make any sense at all but then that seems to be the general theme of your post.......and no-one is trying to "saddle" their playstyle with anything. Only the devs can do that. PvE only game? Thats a single player game you're talking about......maybe with multiplayer mode added. The internet is capable of much more than hosting multiplayer single player games so why waste its potential by doing just that?
Dont even throw that irrational chit my way pal...I am not the one throwing hissy fits to get my gaming style included into games like the simmers.
Adventure gamers wanna group or raid for their equipment. Thus there is no need for crafters for weapons/armor/etc. So then where is Uncle Owen gonna get his content? If Adventures arent buying, and arent required to, then it isnt going to leave much for him to do.
EQ hit trades perfect IMO. Secondary skill that everyone has. Makes a few good things, but nearly everything of importance comes from fighting/questing.
Like I indicated...simmers match up with PvP games. PvP spend their time fighting each other...thus it doesnt matter if they are buying their gear...especially if they are getting it looted constantly. Totally different in a PvE game, where a person slowly builds his gear by camping various zones/raids.
So I will say it one more time...traders match up with PvP games...they dont belong in PvE games. If you are talking minor trades ala EQ then yeah it works...but the second trader becomes a full blown game unto itself, it no longer has a place in a loot oriented game.
Simmers are a niche in the market...but think they deserve equal treatment in all games. Sorry...I dont subscribe to that notion. There are games catered to them, or in production currently...let them go play those, and leave the PvE games alone.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
PvE isn't going any where. A lot of us have just been bored with it since, well, since the old days even, because no game has ever (IMO) done a good job with PvE. It's either been pointless, repetitive mob grinding or pointless, repetitive questing. The community never has a collecitve goal or motivation for going out and slaughtering wolves other than xp. The closest any one has come to this is just having a really good faction system. But, thats about it...
And, like we've said many times before, PvE is too damn easy/predictable. That's why theres such a shift towards PvP, because people want a thrill and a challenge.
Originally posted by Eyrothath Originally posted by popinjay
Originally posted by Eyrothath
Originally posted by popinjay
Originally posted by Sovrath
What we do know is that regardless of PvP or PvE I think it's been shown that games always need some mix of both PvE and PvP.
I would even dare say, that if Wow did not put any PvP into it, it would still have record numbers and lead the industry by a wide margin. Wow does not succeed because it has PvP in it; it succeeds because it has a very strong casual base who love to quest and actually group with other people at its core. Duos, trios and full groups run constantly in WoW.. but there is also room to solo when people just want to do that. If this were true, then there is this game I used to play called Horzions with no PvP, should have 11 million subscribers right now... But this game was before WoW.. WoW had a good marketing stratedgy, a strong fan base from the warcraft games, etc.. MMO's were not really known and not very many people played MMO's before WoW..
Just curious, but do you think Horizons was a well made game? I am not arguing for a PvE game that's trash, there are enough of those. But there is also good PvE heavy games that are very well made. No matter what the style of game, if its not made well, it won't DO well.. so perhaps Horizons fits in this category.
After all, Asheron's Call or Fury didnt do so hot as a pvp game, did it?
I heard that Asheron's Call was very good int he beginning... Fury was a very laughable game, and it didn't appeal to myself or other people I knew who enjoyed PvP, it basically came down to whoever could button smash the fastest, wins.. I had to buy a new keyboard after playing that game because I messed it all up... In PvP, you need twitched based combat, this means real time combat, in either first or third person and first person shooter when it comes to spells and arrows, etc.... I hate grinding, I hate button smashing, I do not like the click and watch, I like doing everything manually like Elder Scrolls: Oblivion, or Fallout 3, the combat is more immserive this way, more fun, less grindish and it takes more player skills as you can block, dodge, etc, and it is all done manually.. This is how combat in a MMO should be, and this is what makes the "combat" in a game should work and it is rarely seen in a MMO.. If WoW had tactical, skill based combat, wether PvP or PvE, it does not matter, if this game allowed me to be a straight crafter and just work up my skills without leveling, if they had the kind of Real Time and FPS combat, then I would be all down for WoW... But I am not, it is not my kind of combat, the click and watch, spam a few spells, it is boring to me for some reason, I lose control of my character.. It is the same reason why I was never into the Final Fantasy games..
You said you played Horizons. Did you find it to be a well made game, or one that had coding or other problems? Is it possible it failed not because it was a PvE game, but simply because it was a badly MADE game?
Could this be part of the reason why they didn't have 11 million subscribers?
What we do know is that regardless of PvP or PvE I think it's been shown that games always need some mix of both PvE and PvP.
Well, FFXI was a PvE based game, that had practically NO pvp in it. There was a small area that was barely used. That did not hurt the games subscriptions over the years and very few subscribers complained to Square Enix to put more of it in. That is a classic example of a PvE game not needed any PvP. So is LOTRO. So is EQ2. Vanguard, if it wasn't so half baked, would have not needed ANY pvp in it; the vast overwhelming majority who signed up wanted to A) Craft Group C) Raid. Because it was such a huge world, they wouldn't have needed it. Those games have some Pvp in it, but do not need it to survive.
I would even dare say, that if Wow did not put any PvP into it, it would still have record numbers and lead the industry by a wide margin. Wow does not succeed because it has PvP in it; it succeeds because it has a very strong casual base who love to quest and actually group with other people at its core. Duos, trios and full groups run constantly in WoW.. but there is also room to solo when people just want to do that.
So I'm not in total agreement with your statement there. I will say I DO agree with you that any PvP game needs a BASE of PvE though. Just like Guild Wars, a game which is solely made for PvP, has a PvE base for leveling. You can also just jump right in at max level and PvP from Day 1, but most people still desire to do PvE content. Even a pure PvP game like Darkfall has PvE needed, to some extent, but not for the hardcore who play it. So a PvP game NEEDS PvE, but not necessarily the other way around.
Yes but those are two games. Out of how many?
You are correct in that WoW doesn't need pvp. They didn't have battle grounds when it launched though they did have pvp servers.
And Final Fantasy most likely doesn't need pvp because it's final Fantasy. Take WoW and Final Fantasy and we can see that people will play them for their names or IP alone.
But I believe that some form of pvp needs to be present to at least give players who enjoy pvp but are not interested in a pvp game some outlet of play. Even if its just dueling.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Yes but those are two games. Out of how many? You are correct in that WoW doesn't need pvp. They didn't have battle grounds when it launched though they did have pvp servers. And Final Fantasy most likely doesn't need pvp because it's final Fantasy. Take WoW and Final Fantasy and we can see that people will play them for their names or IP alone. But I believe that some form of pvp needs to be present to at least give players who enjoy pvp but are not interested in a pvp game some outlet of play. Even if its just dueling.
The Final Fantasy MMO is really nothing like the Final Fantasy series. It's not even based on it really, there are only some things that are related (like chocobos) and only some things included from the line (Bahamat). It's somewhat like how each Final Fantasy console game is not wholly connected to the previous game, but takes place in a different time. The name is there, but the storyline is very different. So anyone buying it and expecting/wanting to have it follow along the consoles storylines and combat style, probably didn't stick around very long.
Dueling is already an option in probably 99% of MMOs already, and that will always remain a constant for the reason you correctly gave; people want something else to try once in awhile. But usually in those games, you see some guy /shouting in town for duels, with very few takers. When they do, its not longer than 10 minutes before they move on. People mostly don't have time for that in most MMOs. (dueling)
Again, I believe you have room for Hybrids, PvE only and PvP only. The problem is a small minority wants it either PvP only or Hybrids, because they think the demand for a PvE only game has passed, when a game like WoW and polls about it show there is more of a demand than ever. Plenty of those people play WoW PvE simply because, its the last game released where the PvE was pretty reliable and fun with tons of questing. But if another PvE only game came along, ala FFXI, that wasn't as buggy as Vanguard, people would leave WoW the minute it was released.
PvP and PvE are not mutually exclusive of one another if you build them in from the beginning. What is not good is bolting PvP onto a game which was PvE in origin but the company are after more subscriptons. Its the same argument with themepark and sandbox. Elements of both can be in one single game. Most people veer between such playstyles anyways.
You are the voice of reason. I totally agree. Its so ridiculous that people have formed their own factions on these forums. You're either in the PvE faction or the PvP faction, the Themepark faction or the Sandbox faction, the Crafters faction or the Monster Killer faction, the Levelgrinder faction or the Storyreader faction. If you like one particular playstyle then oh no no you cant possibly like the "opposing" playstyle. Dont you dare cross over that fence!
I'm glad to see there are other people like me. I was beginning to think I was some form of mutant gamer who enjoys aspects from all of the "factions" (as you put it) of the MMORPG world.
Granted over the year I have begun to lean towards the more difficult games but I try to keep an open mind.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
But I believe that some form of pvp needs to be present to at least give players who enjoy pvp but are not interested in a pvp game some outlet of play.
Contrary to popular belief by some of those in this thread who think I want an elimination to PvP, I would like to see it thrive. Proof?
I have always been a strong supporter of Darkfall succeeding as a great PvP game for several reasons.
First and FOREMOST, it's made by a small company going against the WoW grain of trying to make some type of Hybrid PvE/PvP game. They have some PvE in it, but talking with people playing it, it's clear that is NOT the intention. The whole game is focused on skilling up while actually fighting each other. But even in a game WITHOUT having to kill 100 crabs to level, there are plenty lazies in the game macroing skills in towns, because they are afraid to go outside the towns until they are all leveled up. (so much for the challenges..) The game is meant to be played outside, with the element of not knowing how strong your opponent is. I like this idea of no apologies for a PvP game. Full loot and battle with consequences. If I were to play a PvP game this year, I would want this type of challenge, not these other games where its all bravado and safety nets if you fall down.
Second, if this does well as an oRvR and fills the hole DAoC left that WAR and AoC cannot fill, that means at some point Pvpers will flock to this game if they keep building on it. The fact that this game is more complete on release than a game like WAR is after almost 6 months out is amazing; after all WAR's hype and Darkfall's lack of it. With more PvP fans going there and if they do very well, it's sure that they will either A) own the pvp genre for pvpers as the most challenging game out and make good returns or get picked up by a bigger company and even more capital put into the game to polish it or C) be noticed by other big companies who then make their own full loot, PvP only type of game, but one that's polished character and graphic wise. My hope is that eventually, there will only be two types of games: All PvE or all PvP and they will be stronger because of the focuses. Other than Wow, the majority of hybrid PvE/PvP games has sucked quality of MMOs down the toilet.
Third, Adventurine has said all along, this is the type of game they are making. Pvp with consequences, not candyland pvp. They said they will not change it simply because people keep dying, or they aren't getting waves of new subscriptions. They are getting exactly who they targeted... not everyone, just the select few who like challenges. They also said there wouldn't be too many "protections", that if you play this game, you'd better be ready to fight. No hanging outside in zones gathering mats until you are full, then going to town to get rich. There will be risk from mobs and people who, unlike other pvp, will not only kill you but take all the mats you harvested for the last hour. This means, there will be real guilds with real reasons to protect each other and cities, not made up artificial ones of "A hates B". You can switch allegiances anytime. You can join and make truces with other guilds, and can break them whenever you like, just like the real world.
If it's possible to root for a game you really don't even plan to play anytime soon, I fit in this mold. I really want Darkfall to succeed more than any other type of PvP game, so that PvE can get a stronger focus down the line.
PvE MMORPGs will still be made, even not being a fan of them myself look at how WoW still got a huge population. The smaller amount of similar games on development can be explained by how hard is to compete directly with the leader of the sub-genre. A fresh popular PvE centric MMORPG will have to surpass WoW in so many ways, and it's not an easy task I would say. But this doesn't mean no company will ever produce a PvE MMORPG anymore.
PvP games if well made can give players endless entertainment with sieges, massive battles and so on (however cheating on a competitive environment is far harder to tolerate if compared to PvE ones), requiring less focus on creating dungeons, bosses not to mention scripted battles get very dull after people have figured the patterns. Expansions are necessary for keeping players on the loop. Also, fantasy PvP centric MMORPG games featuring higher risk and reward have a niche without any games to fill the gap, thus why so many companies are trying to get this slice of the pie with titles as Darkfall, Mortal Online and others.
Fact is, PvP belongs to fps and fps only. It is wrong to make a RPG game, made for simple PvE and intensly fun grouping PvP. Let us look at it like this, if i was looking to blow of some heads, or kill someone I would be playing Call of Duty 4. For now lets play some diablo 2 and try to tell developers the mistake they're making.
"i have a lvl 26 maplestory warrior lvl 9 asda story archer and a adventure quest mage lvl 15 and my xfire is my bro's"
Comments
Yes, lets eliminate other peoples playstyle just because it doesn't fit yours.
/endsarcasm
*rolls eyes*
Yeah lets do just that.
I have no desire to buy my wares from Uncle Owen in his pink panties.
I wanna get my items from the mobs I am slaughtering wholesale.
What makes it even greater is the number of Sims/"sandbox" players that call names at Adventure gamers...then expect that we would want to have them sharing games with us.
PvE adventure games stand on their own. We dont need Uncle Owen...the same cannot be said the other way around.
For Uncle Owen to have content, then adventures have to be forced to deal with Sims players. Disrupting what we want in the first place, and even taking Dev time away from producing content besides.
No thanks
Let Uncle Owen stay on unemployment, and let the Simmers that play Uncle Owen *censored*
I get enough of their holier than thou attitude, not to mention their childish foot stomping on message boards...I sure dont wanna share a MMO with em.
Sims players match up with PvP gamers as their gaming styles mesh. I wish they would quit trying to saddle their playstyle on PvE games.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Yes, lets eliminate other peoples playstyle just because it doesn't fit yours.
/endsarcasm
*rolls eyes*
Yeah lets do just that.
I have no desire to buy my wares from Uncle Owen in his pink panties.
I wanna get my items from the mobs I am slaughtering wholesale.
What makes it even greater is the number of Sims/"sandbox" players that call names at Adventure gamers...then expect that we would want to have them sharing games with us.
PvE adventure games stand on their own. We dont need Uncle Owen...the same cannot be said the other way around.
For Uncle Owen to have content, then adventures have to be forced to deal with Sims players. Disrupting what we want in the first place, and even taking Dev time away from producing content besides.
No thanks
Let Uncle Owen stay on unemployment, and let the Simmers that play Uncle Owen *censored*
I get enough of their holier than thou attitude, not to mention their childish foot stomping on message boards...I sure dont wanna share a MMO with em.
Sims players match up with PvP gamers as their gaming styles mesh. I wish they would quit trying to saddle their playstyle on PvE games.
Thats rather over dramatic dont ya think? No-ones playstyle is being forced on anyone else at all. Its not like you MUST buy a crafters player made items. If you only want to use stuff that drops off a monster then you are free to do that and you can happily ignore any items on the market made by players.......even though that doesnt make any sense. All you do is look it up on the market......which again you are free to ignore. You dont have to actually walk into a player run shop and buy an item anyway.....and who cares if you did? It would be just the same thing as buying something from a computer controlled vendor.......or do you have an irrational mental block against that as well? You're just deliberately talking nonsense to try and be funny and create some drama.
Besides it makes more sense for an adventurer to buy his equipment. I would much rather play a game where the monsters dont drop magical items all the time simply because it doesnt make any sense. If you fight a load of manky old goblins then you should end up with a bunch of old smelly loincloths, a few dead rats and a bunch of badly made "stikkas" and clubs. Real magical items would be forged by skilled crafters and given as gifts for grand deeds done or sold for lots of money.
Sims players match up with PvP players? That doesnt make any sense at all but then that seems to be the general theme of your post.......and no-one is trying to "saddle" their playstyle with anything. Only the devs can do that. PvE only game? Thats a single player game you're talking about......maybe with multiplayer mode added. The internet is capable of much more than hosting multiplayer single player games so why waste its potential by doing just that?
You are the voice of reason. I totally agree. Its so ridiculous that people have formed their own factions on these forums. You're either in the PvE faction or the PvP faction, the Themepark faction or the Sandbox faction, the Crafters faction or the Monster Killer faction, the Levelgrinder faction or the Storyreader faction. If you like one particular playstyle then oh no no you cant possibly like the "opposing" playstyle. Dont you dare cross over that fence!
To the OP..
Welcome to the world of MMOFPSRPG..
Yeah I miss the good ole days and I still play DAoC, AO and Eve.
The mmorpg scene went to shit after the release of World of Warcraft entered our lives. SWG Pre-Cu was the best game I ever played and still have the most memories in. WoW definetly kicked ass the 1st year of release, but went to total garbage (imo) when burning crusade was released.
With the introduction to console gamers like the xbox and playstation, corporate companys want more money by attracting that type of clientel to the pc gaming scene as well.
I miss a good ole fashion mmorpg, but apparently we have to change with the times, because the mmo's we grew up with, would not stand a chance in todays market.
Companys are looking for the next big thing, will it happen anytime soon?
I think it will probably be a mmorpg game we all under estimated.
Heres to the future of mmorpgs! GOODLUCK!
The most successful game of all time is a PvE game at its core? Hmmm.....now could that have anything to do with the fact that........
NEARLY EVERY MMO IS A PVE GAME!!!
We only have one decent mmo which was originally built around PvP and thats EVE......and even that game has a load of PvE elements to it. Oh and I suppose you could chuck Ultima Online in there as well which is over 10 years old.....but thats also built oroginally as a PvE game. Every other mmo which has PvP in it has been originally designed as a PvE game. The PvP elements were just added on as an extra......which is why PvP has such a bad rep in mmos because its always crap and it doesnt work.
What we need is a developer to build a game that incorporates both playstyles into its game so well that people forget about comparing the two. The only reason people are choosing one side or the other on these forums is because all the games we have been playing have been deliberately keeping its PvE and PvP elements seperate.
You're a human and you've been given a quest from an npc to go and ransack that temple up in the mountains? Ok fair enough. Lets go up to the temple then. Oh whats this? Its got a goblin tribe living in and around it. Lets start killing them.
You're a goblin and an npc in your village just started giving out a new quest that wasnt available before. Whats this? He says that the village scouts have just got word of an impending expedition being sent out from the human city down in the lowlands. It seems they are interested in our holy temple. Better make sure none of them get inside and steal any of our shinies.
Of course if there were no goblin players near the shrine when the human player/s took that quest then it would be a straight forward PvE experience. However if any goblin players were near the shrine and got wind of what the pesky humans were up to then they might try and organise the temples defence. Then again both sides might be able to come to some kind of compromise which could lead to alternative peaceful solutions to the quests.
How would that not be fun?
Pure PvE game? Stuff that!
Pure PvP game? Stuff that too!
Mixture of both? Hmmm a realistic roleplaying game! Now that would be a first!
I'm not ready to blame WoW yet for the mess the MMO scene is in right now content wise. I did sub to WoW for 6 months and I had a good time while playing it. I did not find it vapid or "kiddie" as the snobbish usually say, and I'm not ashamed to say I did have fun there. The quests were written pretty good, with lots of little inside jokes that were tailored to the U.S. culture (I remember in TBC, a NPC named Haris Pilton selling overpriced jewelry in Shatt, lol). They had lots of little things like that but most people who said it was too easy a game, never read the quests much or got the jokes. They probably just clicked through the dialogue, then ran straight through the quest, looking for the next one. I found all the classes in WoW to work well (at least the ones I played) and the dungeons were nicely done with twists and not able to do without reading guides on them beforehand. I found the pvp to be ok and just the break I needed when I did it. I did not buy WOTLK though, but I hear the PvP is way better than it was because of the destruction you can do to buildings and the balanced sides.
The fact that all these other companies want to follow a successful formula like WoW and botch it up, isn't WoW's fault for me. I actually am happy WoW did so well, because I know there are tons of people playing MMOs now I meet in different walks of life, who would never think to play them before WoW. And because of them, there is more investment into MMOs. The problem I have is seeing where the allocations are headed in the future. Away from small squad group play, dependant on huge, zerg Pvp style play.
I just wish the genre wouldn't pander to the easy buck with the PvP so much. PvP was always a small slice of gamers in MMOs, so I don't know why they feel everyone all of a sudden wants to do that so urgently, because I don't see any polling data to support that by and large. As I said before, people usually go to console games or FPS for that kind of fun.. they'll never get those folks anyways. Too many of those people like playing for free, or don't feel they can afford $15 a month.
Edit: 6 mos.. not 3 ^^
"TO MICHAEL!"
Well, it's nice to know I'm completely incorrect. I really hate to do anything half baked.
The endgame PvP games that are releasing this year are not coming out as some 'reactionary force to the status quo'. The MMO market has nothing to do with ideologies... its about gaming and what companies think they can sell for the least amount of capital outlay.
Companies know that they can make a PvE based game anytime, but that requires a TON of writing, questing and dungeon designing, artists, etc. This process takes infinitely longer than say, whipping up a "Capture the Flag" scenario in a PvP mmo and is FAR cheaper too. Nothing really tough about maintaining "zone flipping" once the simple mechanic is in place, nor is it revolutionary. You really don't need an immersive world for a PvP player. Design your instance or zone, you can even paint it on and it doesn't matter. It's not like a typical pvper will really look around and go notice how the water or clouds are moving, or think "Wow, those trees are amazing!" They are too busy watching for the zerg. They are not interested in an immersive experience, by and large.
PvP games are coming out because as has been said in this thread, far cheaper and easier to maintain. It gives the company vastly improved return on their investments and further "updates" don't require much manpower.
Nice to know you do everything full forced!
It's not about some game companies adopting ideologies and then making decisions about that. just as the music companies didn't adopt any sort of ideology when they changed gears time and time again.
It is most definitely about the audience (players in this case) and what the game companies sense as to what they want.
Just as you say.
but it most definitely is about how humans are. They get tired of one thing, look for something new, that becomes the status quo and then the cycle continues.
So you have the music of the 50's rock and roll which is different from the music of the 40's and incorporates elements of blues and jazz. Then it evolves to music of the 60's which is different as it doesn't involve the simplistic rock rhythms and harmonies, starts dealing with more serious subjects as early rock subject matter is rather direct and simple.
Then unrest happens, a lot of social issues and the music of the 70's is born. The 80's is a reaction to the 60's and 70's and almost a revisitation of the sensibilities of the 50's with more fun subject matter and musical materials. But this can't sustain itself and you get another era starting in the 90's with more serious music, grunge, etc. rap of the 70's and 80's starts to widen it's audience.
But with games it's more difficult because it's very young. There are technical hurdles to overcome.
Still the gameplay continues, evolves and then reacts to what has gone before. You will not see pvp games as being a dominant force at all going forward and the death of PvE. Especially since the dominant games at the moment are PvE. Wow is not going to die any time soon. Neither are EQ II and LOTRO.
To be honest, besides Lineage II in the east (as it doens't have nearly the same popularity here) Eve is the reigning pvp game.
All these upcoming pvp games have yet to prove themselves.
What we do know is that regardless of PvP or PvE I think it's been shown that games always need some mix of both PvE and PvP.
And I will ammend my initial statement that you were completely wrong. I apologize. What I should have said and what is more correct (and what I should have stated in the first place) is that I completely disagree with you.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Well, FFXI was a PvE based game, that had practically NO pvp in it. There was a small area that was barely used. That did not hurt the games subscriptions over the years and very few subscribers complained to Square Enix to put more of it in. That is a classic example of a PvE game not needed any PvP. So is LOTRO. So is EQ2. Vanguard, if it wasn't so half baked, would have not needed ANY pvp in it; the vast overwhelming majority who signed up wanted to A) Craft
Group C) Raid. Because it was such a huge world, they wouldn't have needed it. Those games have some Pvp in it, but do not need it to survive.
I would even dare say, that if Wow did not put any PvP into it, it would still have record numbers and lead the industry by a wide margin. Wow does not succeed because it has PvP in it; it succeeds because it has a very strong casual base who love to quest and actually group with other people at its core. Duos, trios and full groups run constantly in WoW.. but there is also room to solo when people just want to do that.
So I'm not in total agreement with your statement there. I will say I DO agree with you that any PvP game needs a BASE of PvE though. Just like Guild Wars, a game which is solely made for PvP, has a PvE base for leveling. You can also just jump right in at max level and PvP from Day 1, but most people still desire to do PvE content. Even a pure PvP game like Darkfall has PvE needed, to some extent, but not for the hardcore who play it. So a PvP game NEEDS PvE, but not necessarily the other way around.
"TO MICHAEL!"
I would liek to make a game similar to a sandbox game like Darkfall without the PVP....
Let mobs loot your equipment, use it against you, let the mobs build their own camps, and as you clear out a mob, they re-locate.. etc.... Use the traditional RPG/FPS real time combat style that it uses, get rid of the targeting, etc.. Get rid of the level grinding and the class based systems as well..... Allow players to train in any skill, tame pets, hire NPC's, train in any skills they wish, build cities, hire guards, build boats, use them anyway to their advantage, by attacking mobs on land etc, let people go out and tame their mounts or buy them from a stable, etc, etc...... Disable the PvP, and you would probably have the greatest PvE game of all time... Add in PvP, and you get a game like Earthrise, Darkfall, or Mortal Online..
The MMO industry started off with sandbox games such as UO, PvP was not a feature in this game, as it was a social experiment, it was not intended to be a hardcore PvP game, it was meant to be a realistic version of a virtual world, there was full loot + you could attack and kill anyone, but that was not a feature, the freedom and player choice of UO was the feature... I wish someone would make another UO, I really would, just better, better as in FPS/RTS combat, naval combat, city building and a better world.. UO has it down though, you build a house right there on the map, customize it anyway you want to, and decorate it, it is the only game I have see where you DROP your items on the ground, and you can lock them down in your house so they don't go anywhere, you lock down anything from chests, furniture, anything you can get your hands on, and you can craft and pick up any furniture peice, etc, and it goes right into your backpack... From what I heard, Link Realms is like this....
www.linkrealms.com is going to apparently be a game where the players completely shape the world, everyone gets their own realm and in your realm, you build a house, and shape your realm anyway you want to with a map editing tool, and the monsters and NPC's in the game from what I hear are dynamic, they will raid your lands and your houses, you build forests, mountains, dungeons and mines with your map editing tool, and you set the rules of your realm, wether it has PvP, or full player loot, or none at all, and all the realms are linked together and are non-instanced, and there is no load screens, the game is also suppose to have many, many skills, in a classless, non-level based world... If Link Realms is like UO with better animation + graphics, and even more sand, then count me in..... I don't play a game for PvP, in Darkfall I wanted to be a merchant sailor, and that is exactly what I am!! I have no combat skills with my character, no magic, so far my mining is 70 and I got my weaponsmithing and armorsmithing skills to 60, in a game such as WoW, I am forced to pick this class, I have to level my character through PvE, in a game such as Darkfall, you level your character just by swining your weapon, shooting your arrow at a wall or shooting your spell into the sky, can raise your skills... Very realistic..... So on topic with WoW again, I pick a class and I am like, this sucks, why can't they make some kind of class for just crafting skills?? And then lol and behold, you can only pick two professions when you get to that point....
I guess I should say, I like PvE, I love it, I even like PvP, and I like crafting even more, which is why I play UO still, I consider UO the ultimate PvE/PVP game over any other... Even in its current WoWish state.. You can war guilds, join factions, fight for control over certain cities in factions which gives you benefit, fight your own guild members, etc.. It is not made of mini games, you do not have to grind to the end game content, cause there is no END GAME content in UO, games I have seen such as WoW have less content at the end game, even Age of Conan, they have no content.... UO on the other hand, has content, and it is all right there in front of your face, and there is so much you can do, so much possibilities, every day, something new, this is how you make content, so far UO is the only game that did it right throughout the years.... Sad to say, Trammel ruined it, but they still did a nice job with some features..
I would even dare say, that if Wow did not put any PvP into it, it would still have record numbers and lead the industry by a wide margin. Wow does not succeed because it has PvP in it; it succeeds because it has a very strong casual base who love to quest and actually group with other people at its core. Duos, trios and full groups run constantly in WoW.. but there is also room to solo when people just want to do that.
If this were true, then there is this game I used to play called Horzions with no PvP, should have 11 million subscribers right now... But this game was before WoW.. WoW had a good marketing stratedgy, a strong fan base from the warcraft games, etc.. MMO's were not really known and not very many people played MMO's before WoW..
Just curious, but do you think Horizons was a well made game? I am not arguing for a PvE game that's trash, there are enough of those. But there is also good PvE heavy games that are very well made. No matter what the style of game, if its not made well, it won't DO well.. so perhaps Horizons fits in this category.
After all, Fury didnt do so hot as a pvp game, did it?
EDIT: wrong game listed^^
"TO MICHAEL!"
I would even dare say, that if Wow did not put any PvP into it, it would still have record numbers and lead the industry by a wide margin. Wow does not succeed because it has PvP in it; it succeeds because it has a very strong casual base who love to quest and actually group with other people at its core. Duos, trios and full groups run constantly in WoW.. but there is also room to solo when people just want to do that.
If this were true, then there is this game I used to play called Horzions with no PvP, should have 11 million subscribers right now... But this game was before WoW.. WoW had a good marketing stratedgy, a strong fan base from the warcraft games, etc.. MMO's were not really known and not very many people played MMO's before WoW..
Just curious, but do you think Horizons was a well made game? I am not arguing for a PvE game that's trash, there are enough of those. But there is also good PvE heavy games that are very well made. No matter what the style of game, if its not made well, it won't DO well.. so perhaps Horizons fits in this category.
After all, Asheron's Call or Fury didnt do so hot as a pvp game, did it?
I heard that Asheron's Call was very good int he beginning... Fury was a very laughable game, and it didn't appeal to myself or other people I knew who enjoyed PvP, it basically came down to whoever could button smash the fastest, wins.. I had to buy a new keyboard after playing that game because I messed it all up... In PvP, you need twitched based combat, this means real time combat, in either first or third person and first person shooter when it comes to spells and arrows, etc.... I hate grinding, I hate button smashing, I do not like the click and watch, I like doing everything manually like Elder Scrolls: Oblivion, or Fallout 3, the combat is more immserive this way, more fun, less grindish and it takes more player skills as you can block, dodge, etc, and it is all done manually.. This is how combat in a MMO should be, and this is what makes the "combat" in a game should work and it is rarely seen in a MMO..
If WoW had tactical, skill based combat, wether PvP or PvE, it does not matter, if this game allowed me to be a straight crafter and just work up my skills without leveling, if they had the kind of Real Time and FPS combat, then I would be all down for WoW... But I am not, it is not my kind of combat, the click and watch, spam a few spells, it is boring to me for some reason, I lose control of my character.. It is the same reason why I was never into the Final Fantasy games..
Yes, lets eliminate other peoples playstyle just because it doesn't fit yours.
/endsarcasm
*rolls eyes*
Yeah lets do just that.
I have no desire to buy my wares from Uncle Owen in his pink panties.
I wanna get my items from the mobs I am slaughtering wholesale.
What makes it even greater is the number of Sims/"sandbox" players that call names at Adventure gamers...then expect that we would want to have them sharing games with us.
PvE adventure games stand on their own. We dont need Uncle Owen...the same cannot be said the other way around.
For Uncle Owen to have content, then adventures have to be forced to deal with Sims players. Disrupting what we want in the first place, and even taking Dev time away from producing content besides.
No thanks
Let Uncle Owen stay on unemployment, and let the Simmers that play Uncle Owen *censored*
I get enough of their holier than thou attitude, not to mention their childish foot stomping on message boards...I sure dont wanna share a MMO with em.
Sims players match up with PvP gamers as their gaming styles mesh. I wish they would quit trying to saddle their playstyle on PvE games.
Thats rather over dramatic dont ya think? No-ones playstyle is being forced on anyone else at all. Its not like you MUST buy a crafters player made items. If you only want to use stuff that drops off a monster then you are free to do that and you can happily ignore any items on the market made by players.......even though that doesnt make any sense. All you do is look it up on the market......which again you are free to ignore. You dont have to actually walk into a player run shop and buy an item anyway.....and who cares if you did? It would be just the same thing as buying something from a computer controlled vendor.......or do you have an irrational mental block against that as well? You're just deliberately talking nonsense to try and be funny and create some drama.
Besides it makes more sense for an adventurer to buy his equipment. I would much rather play a game where the monsters dont drop magical items all the time simply because it doesnt make any sense. If you fight a load of manky old goblins then you should end up with a bunch of old smelly loincloths, a few dead rats and a bunch of badly made "stikkas" and clubs. Real magical items would be forged by skilled crafters and given as gifts for grand deeds done or sold for lots of money.
Sims players match up with PvP players? That doesnt make any sense at all but then that seems to be the general theme of your post.......and no-one is trying to "saddle" their playstyle with anything. Only the devs can do that. PvE only game? Thats a single player game you're talking about......maybe with multiplayer mode added. The internet is capable of much more than hosting multiplayer single player games so why waste its potential by doing just that?
Dont even throw that irrational chit my way pal...I am not the one throwing hissy fits to get my gaming style included into games like the simmers.
Adventure gamers wanna group or raid for their equipment. Thus there is no need for crafters for weapons/armor/etc. So then where is Uncle Owen gonna get his content? If Adventures arent buying, and arent required to, then it isnt going to leave much for him to do.
EQ hit trades perfect IMO. Secondary skill that everyone has. Makes a few good things, but nearly everything of importance comes from fighting/questing.
Like I indicated...simmers match up with PvP games. PvP spend their time fighting each other...thus it doesnt matter if they are buying their gear...especially if they are getting it looted constantly. Totally different in a PvE game, where a person slowly builds his gear by camping various zones/raids.
So I will say it one more time...traders match up with PvP games...they dont belong in PvE games. If you are talking minor trades ala EQ then yeah it works...but the second trader becomes a full blown game unto itself, it no longer has a place in a loot oriented game.
Simmers are a niche in the market...but think they deserve equal treatment in all games. Sorry...I dont subscribe to that notion. There are games catered to them, or in production currently...let them go play those, and leave the PvE games alone.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
PvE isn't going any where. A lot of us have just been bored with it since, well, since the old days even, because no game has ever (IMO) done a good job with PvE. It's either been pointless, repetitive mob grinding or pointless, repetitive questing. The community never has a collecitve goal or motivation for going out and slaughtering wolves other than xp. The closest any one has come to this is just having a really good faction system. But, thats about it...
And, like we've said many times before, PvE is too damn easy/predictable. That's why theres such a shift towards PvP, because people want a thrill and a challenge.
I would even dare say, that if Wow did not put any PvP into it, it would still have record numbers and lead the industry by a wide margin. Wow does not succeed because it has PvP in it; it succeeds because it has a very strong casual base who love to quest and actually group with other people at its core. Duos, trios and full groups run constantly in WoW.. but there is also room to solo when people just want to do that.
If this were true, then there is this game I used to play called Horzions with no PvP, should have 11 million subscribers right now... But this game was before WoW.. WoW had a good marketing stratedgy, a strong fan base from the warcraft games, etc.. MMO's were not really known and not very many people played MMO's before WoW..
Just curious, but do you think Horizons was a well made game? I am not arguing for a PvE game that's trash, there are enough of those. But there is also good PvE heavy games that are very well made. No matter what the style of game, if its not made well, it won't DO well.. so perhaps Horizons fits in this category.
After all, Asheron's Call or Fury didnt do so hot as a pvp game, did it?
I heard that Asheron's Call was very good int he beginning... Fury was a very laughable game, and it didn't appeal to myself or other people I knew who enjoyed PvP, it basically came down to whoever could button smash the fastest, wins.. I had to buy a new keyboard after playing that game because I messed it all up... In PvP, you need twitched based combat, this means real time combat, in either first or third person and first person shooter when it comes to spells and arrows, etc.... I hate grinding, I hate button smashing, I do not like the click and watch, I like doing everything manually like Elder Scrolls: Oblivion, or Fallout 3, the combat is more immserive this way, more fun, less grindish and it takes more player skills as you can block, dodge, etc, and it is all done manually.. This is how combat in a MMO should be, and this is what makes the "combat" in a game should work and it is rarely seen in a MMO..
If WoW had tactical, skill based combat, wether PvP or PvE, it does not matter, if this game allowed me to be a straight crafter and just work up my skills without leveling, if they had the kind of Real Time and FPS combat, then I would be all down for WoW... But I am not, it is not my kind of combat, the click and watch, spam a few spells, it is boring to me for some reason, I lose control of my character.. It is the same reason why I was never into the Final Fantasy games..
You said you played Horizons. Did you find it to be a well made game, or one that had coding or other problems? Is it possible it failed not because it was a PvE game, but simply because it was a badly MADE game?
Could this be part of the reason why they didn't have 11 million subscribers?
"TO MICHAEL!"
Well, FFXI was a PvE based game, that had practically NO pvp in it. There was a small area that was barely used. That did not hurt the games subscriptions over the years and very few subscribers complained to Square Enix to put more of it in. That is a classic example of a PvE game not needed any PvP. So is LOTRO. So is EQ2. Vanguard, if it wasn't so half baked, would have not needed ANY pvp in it; the vast overwhelming majority who signed up wanted to A) Craft
Group C) Raid. Because it was such a huge world, they wouldn't have needed it. Those games have some Pvp in it, but do not need it to survive.
I would even dare say, that if Wow did not put any PvP into it, it would still have record numbers and lead the industry by a wide margin. Wow does not succeed because it has PvP in it; it succeeds because it has a very strong casual base who love to quest and actually group with other people at its core. Duos, trios and full groups run constantly in WoW.. but there is also room to solo when people just want to do that.
So I'm not in total agreement with your statement there. I will say I DO agree with you that any PvP game needs a BASE of PvE though. Just like Guild Wars, a game which is solely made for PvP, has a PvE base for leveling. You can also just jump right in at max level and PvP from Day 1, but most people still desire to do PvE content. Even a pure PvP game like Darkfall has PvE needed, to some extent, but not for the hardcore who play it. So a PvP game NEEDS PvE, but not necessarily the other way around.
Yes but those are two games. Out of how many?
You are correct in that WoW doesn't need pvp. They didn't have battle grounds when it launched though they did have pvp servers.
And Final Fantasy most likely doesn't need pvp because it's final Fantasy. Take WoW and Final Fantasy and we can see that people will play them for their names or IP alone.
But I believe that some form of pvp needs to be present to at least give players who enjoy pvp but are not interested in a pvp game some outlet of play. Even if its just dueling.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
The Final Fantasy MMO is really nothing like the Final Fantasy series. It's not even based on it really, there are only some things that are related (like chocobos) and only some things included from the line (Bahamat). It's somewhat like how each Final Fantasy console game is not wholly connected to the previous game, but takes place in a different time. The name is there, but the storyline is very different. So anyone buying it and expecting/wanting to have it follow along the consoles storylines and combat style, probably didn't stick around very long.
Dueling is already an option in probably 99% of MMOs already, and that will always remain a constant for the reason you correctly gave; people want something else to try once in awhile. But usually in those games, you see some guy /shouting in town for duels, with very few takers. When they do, its not longer than 10 minutes before they move on. People mostly don't have time for that in most MMOs. (dueling)
Again, I believe you have room for Hybrids, PvE only and PvP only. The problem is a small minority wants it either PvP only or Hybrids, because they think the demand for a PvE only game has passed, when a game like WoW and polls about it show there is more of a demand than ever. Plenty of those people play WoW PvE simply because, its the last game released where the PvE was pretty reliable and fun with tons of questing. But if another PvE only game came along, ala FFXI, that wasn't as buggy as Vanguard, people would leave WoW the minute it was released.
"TO MICHAEL!"
You are the voice of reason. I totally agree. Its so ridiculous that people have formed their own factions on these forums. You're either in the PvE faction or the PvP faction, the Themepark faction or the Sandbox faction, the Crafters faction or the Monster Killer faction, the Levelgrinder faction or the Storyreader faction. If you like one particular playstyle then oh no no you cant possibly like the "opposing" playstyle. Dont you dare cross over that fence!
I'm glad to see there are other people like me. I was beginning to think I was some form of mutant gamer who enjoys aspects from all of the "factions" (as you put it) of the MMORPG world.
Granted over the year I have begun to lean towards the more difficult games but I try to keep an open mind.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
Contrary to popular belief by some of those in this thread who think I want an elimination to PvP, I would like to see it thrive. Proof?
I have always been a strong supporter of Darkfall succeeding as a great PvP game for several reasons.
First and FOREMOST, it's made by a small company going against the WoW grain of trying to make some type of Hybrid PvE/PvP game. They have some PvE in it, but talking with people playing it, it's clear that is NOT the intention. The whole game is focused on skilling up while actually fighting each other. But even in a game WITHOUT having to kill 100 crabs to level, there are plenty lazies in the game macroing skills in towns, because they are afraid to go outside the towns until they are all leveled up. (so much for the challenges..) The game is meant to be played outside, with the element of not knowing how strong your opponent is. I like this idea of no apologies for a PvP game. Full loot and battle with consequences. If I were to play a PvP game this year, I would want this type of challenge, not these other games where its all bravado and safety nets if you fall down.
Second, if this does well as an oRvR and fills the hole DAoC left that WAR and AoC cannot fill, that means at some point Pvpers will flock to this game if they keep building on it. The fact that this game is more complete on release than a game like WAR is after almost 6 months out is amazing; after all WAR's hype and Darkfall's lack of it. With more PvP fans going there and if they do very well, it's sure that they will either A) own the pvp genre for pvpers as the most challenging game out and make good returns or
Third, Adventurine has said all along, this is the type of game they are making. Pvp with consequences, not candyland pvp. They said they will not change it simply because people keep dying, or they aren't getting waves of new subscriptions. They are getting exactly who they targeted... not everyone, just the select few who like challenges. They also said there wouldn't be too many "protections", that if you play this game, you'd better be ready to fight. No hanging outside in zones gathering mats until you are full, then going to town to get rich. There will be risk from mobs and people who, unlike other pvp, will not only kill you but take all the mats you harvested for the last hour. This means, there will be real guilds with real reasons to protect each other and cities, not made up artificial ones of "A hates B". You can switch allegiances anytime. You can join and make truces with other guilds, and can break them whenever you like, just like the real world.
If it's possible to root for a game you really don't even plan to play anytime soon, I fit in this mold. I really want Darkfall to succeed more than any other type of PvP game, so that PvE can get a stronger focus down the line.
"TO MICHAEL!"
PvE MMORPGs will still be made, even not being a fan of them myself look at how WoW still got a huge population. The smaller amount of similar games on development can be explained by how hard is to compete directly with the leader of the sub-genre. A fresh popular PvE centric MMORPG will have to surpass WoW in so many ways, and it's not an easy task I would say. But this doesn't mean no company will ever produce a PvE MMORPG anymore.
PvP games if well made can give players endless entertainment with sieges, massive battles and so on (however cheating on a competitive environment is far harder to tolerate if compared to PvE ones), requiring less focus on creating dungeons, bosses not to mention scripted battles get very dull after people have figured the patterns. Expansions are necessary for keeping players on the loop. Also, fantasy PvP centric MMORPG games featuring higher risk and reward have a niche without any games to fill the gap, thus why so many companies are trying to get this slice of the pie with titles as Darkfall, Mortal Online and others.
Fact is, PvP belongs to fps and fps only. It is wrong to make a RPG game, made for simple PvE and intensly fun grouping PvP. Let us look at it like this, if i was looking to blow of some heads, or kill someone I would be playing Call of Duty 4. For now lets play some diablo 2 and try to tell developers the mistake they're making.
"i have a lvl 26 maplestory warrior lvl 9 asda story archer and a adventure quest mage lvl 15 and my xfire is my bro's"