I don't want to solo. It's like playing a single player game.
I don't want to group. The startup and maintenance costs are just too high.
I want to solo with other people.
That means that I want a game to have three or four big, central hunting grounds where all the players congregate and tackle the monsters. Just tear into the monsters as a single group of players. If players want to closely cooperate, they do. If players want to pick off the occasional monster solo, they do. Things can be come quite fluid that way. Players would be obligated to spread out to a degree through character collision detection and for practical, tactical considerations.
I want no levels.
That means that once you have a player character, you can have fun with anyone. You aren't limited to people at or near your level. Levels and multiplayer games do not mix well.
I want a focus on group achievements.
That means that there can be few personal achievements. Whatever victories are in store for the players produce rewards for the group as a whole. Personal achievements get in the way of players wanting to group (contention over who gets what). A poster said above that he soloed because he wanted the rewards for himself. I want to get people thinking about how they will gain by everyone collectively defeating the challenge.
I want a tightly-packed world.
That means that players don't naturally tend to spread out all over the place. That's something else that doesn't mesh with a multiplayer game. It's possible to have exploration and new content without having players racing off in all directions.
One technique is to use a wave. Create the world as a mile wide strip that is 1000 miles long. Start the players at one end and let them chew through the content from one end of the strip to the other. Exploration is constant, and the players stay clustered as they work across the strip. Also, the world progresses - players don't keep repeating the same content. Further, the publisher doesn't need to create all the content on day one because the players are working through it linearly.
I could continue, but I'd like to see solo players working together. No formal groups. Just work as closely with other people as you care to, knowing that the rewards come to everyone when the challenge is defeated (the prisoner is rescued from the dungeon, the monster fortress is cleared, etc)
As a simple example of this, I just played Warhammer Online for the first (and last) time. I started a dwarf and got into the attacks at the fort. I guess that was one of those community quest things. That's close to what I'm talking about here. Players tackle a community problem without having to group.
The experience would have been far better if more players had been present (they had already leveled and moved on) and if the world had changed once the boss, Skag, had been defeated. That fort should have been taken, some gain should have come as a result of the capture, and all the players should have moved on together. We'd know each other and we'd find a natural sense of community. That would be true if you played every day for 10 hours or only a couple hours on a weekend - you'd always be thrown in with the same community as it did the wave down the strip.
Just don't stay away too long or you might miss some of the fun.
I wish there was an mmorpg with the main focus was grouping and exploring. People like to solo and thats fine there should be classes designed for people who like to solo, i think EQ had the best idea with this with the necromancer/Beastmaster. But I find myself lately in every mmorpg getting very bored because I am soloing all the time and when its time to group its either at the very end of the game just raiding the same end content for loot. What ever happened to when mmorpgs were about grouping with others and exploring?
I'm in a group 100% of the time I'm online in WAR, but that could be due to the open group system and that I RvR all the time.
As to your question, I reply with another. Why would a person choose to solo, instead of group. Answer that, and then maybe ask a lot more questions and solve them, then you might have your answer. For instance, a person may solo because they may not have the time to group or because the community is horrid and they'd rather play the game alone than with those people. Now if you really want people to group, you have to ask and solve why the community is horrid and why people don't have time to group. Now you see how improbable it is to solve these problems and then hopefully enlightenment will set in. That's when you realize that the best you can expect for is a game with good group and solo content.
I think both WoW, WAR, and LoTRO do a good job with this. WoW has group and solo content ranging from level 10ish to max level. WAR has group and solo content for people of all levels. LoTRO has group and solo content starting at low levels. WAR is equally group oriented at lvl 1 as they are at lvl 40, whereas WoW and LoTRO get more group oriented as the game goes by.
I'll pose another question. Groups may range from 5 people all the way up to 40 or more people in some games. That's only a small fraction of a server size. So why worry about if other people are soloing, when you could instead join or create a guild whose focus is on grouping at all levels of the game?
There's a tiime and a place for both. My main concern is hvaing to depend on other players to enjoy the game or to get things i need or would like to have. Reasons I dont like to group alot:
1. Low population times.
2. You hvae quests missons etc. and ppl end up not helping you complete them. Too focused on thier own quest instead of helping everyone. It has happened to me.
3. You party up and the complete randomness of boss drops causes you to hvae run thru the same party instance like 20+ times. It get annoying.
4. PPL quit in middle of instances either for Life issues or getting upset cause a boss didnt drop something they wanted.
This is just a few. I like to party up here and there but i dont want to have to depend on it if I can help it.
Played : WOW, LOTRO, COH/COV, EQ2, SWG, and WAR. Playing EVE Online and AOC. Wtg for SW:TOR and WOD
I think both WoW, WAR, and LoTRO do a good job with this. WoW has group and solo content ranging from level 10ish to max level. WAR has group and solo content for people of all levels. LoTRO has group and solo content starting at low levels. WAR is equally group oriented at lvl 1 as they are at lvl 40, whereas WoW and LoTRO get more group oriented as the game goes by.
I have to strongly disagree with this. WoW and LotRO do NOT do a good job here (not sure about WAR, I hear it is better). In WoW if you group up for standard questing, then you've made all the content supremely trivial (and quite possibly lowered your exp rate). Grouping lowering the challenge is not good, but it is good that it is easy to group here. If you want to do a Dungeon or Raid, then you have to be very particular about how you setup your group. A 10-man (especially in the next patch) will require 3 healers, 2 tanks, and the rest DPS. Have trouble getting 3 healers? Then you can't do the content. Can't get 2 tanks? Then you can't do the content. The grouping here is very unfriendly and restrictive, making you suffer to try to get a group going, and this can take a good bit of time too. Suffering to even get a group for such content is bad design.
Grouping needs to be easier to do. A group of two people should still mean you face challenges and have meaningful content. A group of 5 people should not be a chore to make or do if you can find 5 talented people (as opposed to 5 talented people with the right class mix). Of course, the Tank-Healer-DPS system is always going to make people suffer in the latter way, and so that's one of the reasons why THD needs to be done away with. Grouping should be pure fun and rewarding if you aren't with idiots, not a massive pain to even get started on or something that makes content trivial.
The problem with yesterdays MMOs is that they had NO soloing options at all. No decent or fun options that is.
It isn't a problem now. Every MMO has group options. You just have to choose to use them instead of MIN/MAXing your time played/EXP ratio garbage that was taught to you by those OLDER MMOs. They didn't teach you to play a game to have fun. They programmed you to analize how quickly you can level, since the act of doing it was so mind numbingly tedious and limited, you had no choice. You HAD TO find the right spawn that rewarded you the best for your time to speed up the grind. Bad habits those old MMOs bred into you. You need to erase them from your memory.
Now in most MMOs, you just do whatever quest you find fun, kill whatever mob that you can, go to any zone you can survive in, because you'll always advance at a decent pace. You don't need to analyze anything. No need to wait around for help. No sitting in one spot for 4 hrs, pulling and taunting, resting, pull taunting and resting, ad nauseum. You just do what you want to do and have fun. Solo, group, raid, ect. Of course you can still MIN/MAX, but its not neccesary.
Eventually if you choose to be the best at a MMO, you will have to group. Its kind of forced upon you IF and only IF your desire to have the best and be the best. If you just want to play and have fun, you can continue to solo or group at your leasure, which is the way it ALWAYS should've been. Grouping is more difficult so it should have better rewards. You shouldn't be screwed though if you don't have the time to find a group, which again is the way it always should've been. Its just far harder and requires more resources to make GOOD content the caters to both playstyles instead of just one, which is why older MMOs only catered to one type of gamer.
this thread is fail cause mmos are more popular then ever because of wow and to be able to solo without having to group with retards all day with the iq of a bag of rocks so there is no problem its just YOU
Ericbelser and Kyleran I liked your posts. I didn't quote either of you because I want to give my own spin on this but I was nodding my head as I read your thoughts.
First, let me say that I've always defended soloing in mmorpgs. I've always felt that soloing should be an option but after my last attempts to play mmorpgs I've come to agree more and more with the people who call for forced grouping. I'm not sure if I would go quite that far but in order to ensure that people will group there needs to be some benefit to grouping. Soloing shouldn't be impossible but grouping should be the path of least resistance.
I'd also like to add that (for me at least) it's not just about getting into a group with people; it's also about working together as a group and, --gasp--, people actually talking to each other while grouped. So the points that Ericbelser made about the pace of combat and downtime were right on target. If you are constantly, frantically mashing buttons during combat you don't have time to toss off a quick comment (I'm talking about PUGs here and not guild groups using ventrillo). So combat needs to be a little slower paced and each fight should last long enough for you to use some tactics other than <spam your biggest damage attacks as fast as you can>.
After a fight or maybe after a few fights there needs to be a little recovery downtime. At least once in a while there needs to be some downtime because it's during those moments of rest between battles that people will start chatting and being social.
And working together as a group. Ok, here's the thing, I've played games in which grouping was little more than soloing in the presence of other people. The mobs were so easy to kill that even though I was in a group we weren't functioning as a group. We were all just in the same general area, each doing his/her own thing and not working together because we didn't need to. All that the group was for was so we could take credit for each others kills (usually to fullfill a quest requirement). So although we were in a group we weren't playing as a group, we were soloing while using a group mechanic to give us credit for other peoples' kills.
I can't say everything I'd like to say about this or my post would be too long so I'm going to list some bullet points that kill gouping in games. Ok, so what kills grouping?
1. Mobs are so weak relative to the players that you don't need to group.
2. You don't need other players to help with downtime recovery either.
3. Players actually profit more from soloing than from grouping thus making soloing the path of least resistance. Why bother putting together a group when it's quicker, easier, and more profitable to solo?
4. Heavily quest driven games make grouping even more awkward because everbody is always running around, never staying in one place for very long, and even if you do put together a group your quests will soon send you all running off in different directions so the group won't last very long.
And now I'll do a little whistfull whining. What I miss is the PUGing in old EQ. It was everywhere in that game. You couldn't swing a dead cat without hitting a group. And because it was so ubiquitous it was also very easy and usually fairly quick to get into a group. And because people wanted to be able to get into a group they were generally friendly and polite to each other (with some exceptions of course).
That's what I miss. Not the raiding. Raiding was too far to the other extreme for me. Too ordered, too structured, too unfriendly, and far too reliant on scheduling. But I do so very much miss the days of friendly pick-up-groups in EQ. Unfortunately I'm starting to think that it was a one time fluke and is now a thing of the past. I've never tried FFXI, maybe it still has something like that. But it's been out for a long time so I wonder if a starting player would have a very good experience in it.
this thread is fail cause mmos are more popular then ever because of wow and to be able to solo without having to group with retards all day with the iq of a bag of rocks so there is no problem its just YOU
See your wrong, the only reason MMOs are more popular now is that the games are so dumbed down that any moron with a computer and internet can play. Gone are the days that it took smart gamers to beat raids or boss mobs. Gone are the days of socializing while hunting and killing. Gone are the days of helping others because you remember what it was like.
Remember hell levels in EQ1? I do, I leveled 2 charaters though the hell levels. A Warrior and a Necromancer.
Remember dieing in EQ and asking yourself, how the hell am I going to get that corpse? I do.
Remember finding those great group hunting spots in high level zones were everyone in the group had to be on their toes or you wiped? I do.
The problem is that most MMOs today require you to do endless amounts of quest for exp. I am so sick of doing quests that I cannot play any of the new MMOs for more then a month before I am bored out of my mind. (WAR is okay because I can level on PvP only which is group content) Grinding is slower then doing the quests and most of the quest are designed to be run solo.
Today most gamers what everything now now now. Back in the day it was all about working hard for what you got instead of getting everything you want with little work. Todays games cater to the new generation of "I WANT IT NOW AND FOR NOTHING" group of players.
I just want a game that brings back the whole Risk vs Reward system that EQ1 had. The bigger the risk the better the reward. No game has that today. No more risk for the players but they still get the rewards.
I wish there was an mmorpg with the main focus was grouping and exploring. People like to solo and thats fine there should be classes designed for people who like to solo, i think EQ had the best idea with this with the necromancer/Beastmaster. But I find myself lately in every mmorpg getting very bored because I am soloing all the time and when its time to group its either at the very end of the game just raiding the same end content for loot. What ever happened to when mmorpgs were about grouping with others and exploring?
I wonder if there aren't enough grouping options in games because there aren't enough people who really want grouping options?
In many games I play I see these types of posts. And then a plethora of people come out on the forums complaining they can't get groups. Yet I always wonder why they just don't group up together? If a particular game has so many people who want group play, maybe they should organize so they can better enjoy their time?
To that end, how many times have I see "looking for group for...." on the public channels only to see other people shouting the same thing. Yet they don't get together?
My guess is that a good many people are tired of pickup groups and tired of the attitudes of many gamers. Maybe even tired of "gamers".
They join kinships or clans or Guilds in order to find people who they enjoy grouping with. Otherwise they just make their own fun.
The people who want groups and more importantly, want pickup groups are vocal but not a majority
And lastly, most people seem to want to join an already formed group but don't want to make groups themselves.
When Lord of the Rings came out there were many quests that required groups. Many people ended up leaving (myself included) who were not inclined to spend their time looking for a group and dealing with some of the attitudes out there. Suddenly Turbine makes it so that there is more solo content and many (including myself) came back.
I think that a good many of the old school mmo players are a minority and that now that mmo's are a bit more mainstream we are getting many people who are not enamored of the whole group mentality and will not spend their time just shouting "looking for group" in order to play for 30 minutes and possibly have a bad time with a bad group.
Personally I would rather solo than have a chance of a bad group.
I also think that if players want to group they need to organize better and find others who are like minded.
It always surprises me when I am in a guild in a game and I see that same someone sign on and say "hey guys, anything going on tonight"? If there isn't they then log off.
No attempt at putting something together or even looking for other similar types of people.
If you like to group then make it happen and of course join a game that has grouping content. Perhaps even put up with slightly inferior rewards for the gameplay experience of grouping.
I do know that LOTRO has a lot of grouping opportunities for those who are looking for that type of thing.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
this thread is fail cause mmos are more popular then ever because of wow and to be able to solo without having to group with retards all day with the iq of a bag of rocks so there is no problem its just YOU
See your wrong, the only reason MMOs are more popular now is that the games are so dumbed down that any moron with a computer and internet can play. Gone are the days that it took smart gamers to beat raids or boss mobs. Gone are the days of socializing while hunting and killing. Gone are the days of helping others because you remember what it was like.
Remember hell levels in EQ1? I do, I leveled 2 charaters though the hell levels. A Warrior and a Necromancer.
Remember dieing in EQ and asking yourself, how the hell am I going to get that corpse? I do.
Remember finding those great group hunting spots in high level zones were everyone in the group had to be on their toes or you wiped? I do.
The problem is that most MMOs today require you to do endless amounts of quest for exp. I am so sick of doing quests that I cannot play any of the new MMOs for more then a month before I am bored out of my mind. (WAR is okay because I can level on PvP only which is group content) Grinding is slower then doing the quests and most of the quest are designed to be run solo.
Today most gamers what everything now now now. Back in the day it was all about working hard for what you got instead of getting everything you want with little work. Todays games cater to the new generation of "I WANT IT NOW AND FOR NOTHING" group of players.
I just want a game that brings back the whole Risk vs Reward system that EQ1 had. The bigger the risk the better the reward. No game has that today. No more risk for the players but they still get the rewards.
Go ahead and compare the FAQs and tactics required for some of the tougher raids in WOW with the tank and spankers of EQ. Just because there wern't guides back then, doesn't make them harder. You didn't need any more smarts to beat raids back in the 90s than you do now. You just needed 10 hrs instead of 2...and no life of course;) Slight exageration, but not too far off. 1 person of 20 or 40 can still wipe a raid in seconds in WOW. EQ was about time conmitment, knowing if you failed, you had to play another 2 hrs to recoup what you lost. But if you had unlimited time to play, what risk was there? If you couldn't risk that time because you have a family, kids and a life outside the game, you obviously didn't play them. DOes that make those people dumb or just smart for avoiding what ammounts to the biggest time sink ever? Your memories of EQ by the way are just memories and VERY few people ever wish to repeat them. I don't know a single person who used to play EQ that would ever go back to that sort of gameplay. Not a one. I guess we're all stupid dummies now, right?
The fact you equate WORK with a game only proves just how "off" your thinking is and how out of touch you are with what a GAME is supposed to be about.
I wish there was an mmorpg with the main focus was grouping and exploring. People like to solo and thats fine there should be classes designed for people who like to solo, i think EQ had the best idea with this with the necromancer/Beastmaster. But I find myself lately in every mmorpg getting very bored because I am soloing all the time and when its time to group its either at the very end of the game just raiding the same end content for loot. What ever happened to when mmorpgs were about grouping with others and exploring?
I wonder if there aren't enough grouping options in games because there aren't enough people who really want grouping options?
In many games I play I see these types of posts. And then a plethora of people come out on the forums complaining they can't get groups. Yet I always wonder why they just don't group up together? If a particular game has so many people who want group play, maybe they should organize so they can better enjoy their time?
To that end, how many times have I see "looking for group for...." on the public channels only to see other people shouting the same thing. Yet they don't get together?
My guess is that a good many people are tired of pickup groups and tired of the attitudes of many gamers. Maybe even tired of "gamers".
They join kinships or clans or Guilds in order to find people who they enjoy grouping with. Otherwise they just make their own fun.
The people who want groups and more importantly, want pickup groups are vocal but not a majority
And lastly, most people seem to want to join an already formed group but don't want to make groups themselves.
When Lord of the Rings came out there were many quests that required groups. Many people ended up leaving (myself included) who were not inclined to spend their time looking for a group and dealing with some of the attitudes out there. Suddenly Turbine makes it so that there is more solo content and many (including myself) came back.
I think that a good many of the old school mmo players are a minority and that now that mmo's are a bit more mainstream we are getting many people who are not enamored of the whole group mentality and will not spend their time just shouting "looking for group" in order to play for 30 minutes and possibly have a bad time with a bad group.
Personally I would rather solo than have a chance of a bad group.
I also think that if players want to group they need to organize better and find others who are like minded.
It always surprises me when I am in a guild in a game and I see that same someone sign on and say "hey guys, anything going on tonight"? If there isn't they then log off.
No attempt at putting something together or even looking for other similar types of people.
If you like to group then make it happen and of course join a game that has grouping content. Perhaps even put up with slightly inferior rewards for the gameplay experience of grouping.
I do know that LOTRO has a lot of grouping opportunities for those who are looking for that type of thing.
Did you play team sports growing up? Or did you like team sports at all? Most people who like team sports do not want to be team captain. If given a choice of shooting hoops by themselves or playing 2 on 2, they'd choose 2 on 2. But just because they like team sports doesn't mean they'll go door to door in the neighborhood, asking kids if they want to play. Most people are uncomfortable approaching people they don't know and asking them to join them in an activity. Instead, they'd prefer to do something alone and wait for someone with that kind of confidence in themselves to form a team.
It's no different with online games. The games are full of people who prefer to follow, if they even want to group at all. Whoever starts a group is in charge of forming the group, ensuring there's no drama, knowing the fights, being a good strategist, and so on. It's a lot to ask from one person and most people don't want that. Because of the stress involved with being the group leader, sometimes even the group leaders want a day off, and would prefer to join a group than to start one.
Maybe you're one of those leaders, which would explain why you don't see it any other way. But everyone has the ability to look at things from another's point of view. So look at it from a timid person's point of view, who does so happen to love to group, but doesn't have the self confidence to ask others to follow him.
I am fortunate enough to have seen boths sides of that, so I know what it's like. I started off being the guy who didn't have enough confidence in himself. Now I lead college learning teams, with adults twice my age following my lead, because they like the way I do things, and warbands on occasion in WAR, when there isn't a leader worth following. Part of being a leader is having the knowledge to do the job and understanding the people who follow you. You can't expect some random person on the internet to be a born again leader or a natural leader. Some people have it, most don't.
this thread is fail cause mmos are more popular then ever because of wow and to be able to solo without having to group with retards all day with the iq of a bag of rocks so there is no problem its just YOU
See your wrong, the only reason MMOs are more popular now is that the games are so dumbed down that any moron with a computer and internet can play. Gone are the days that it took smart gamers to beat raids or boss mobs. Gone are the days of socializing while hunting and killing. Gone are the days of helping others because you remember what it was like.
Remember hell levels in EQ1? I do, I leveled 2 charaters though the hell levels. A Warrior and a Necromancer.
Remember dieing in EQ and asking yourself, how the hell am I going to get that corpse? I do.
Remember finding those great group hunting spots in high level zones were everyone in the group had to be on their toes or you wiped? I do.
The problem is that most MMOs today require you to do endless amounts of quest for exp. I am so sick of doing quests that I cannot play any of the new MMOs for more then a month before I am bored out of my mind. (WAR is okay because I can level on PvP only which is group content) Grinding is slower then doing the quests and most of the quest are designed to be run solo.
Today most gamers what everything now now now. Back in the day it was all about working hard for what you got instead of getting everything you want with little work. Todays games cater to the new generation of "I WANT IT NOW AND FOR NOTHING" group of players.
I just want a game that brings back the whole Risk vs Reward system that EQ1 had. The bigger the risk the better the reward. No game has that today. No more risk for the players but they still get the rewards.
Go ahead and compare the FAQs and tactics required for some of the tougher raids in WOW with the tank and spankers of EQ. Just because there wern't guides back then, doesn't make them harder. You didn't need any more smarts to beat raids back in the 90s than you do now. You just needed 10 hrs instead of 2...and no life of course;) Slight exageration, but not too far off. 1 person of 20 or 40 can still wipe a raid in seconds in WOW. EQ was about time conmitment, knowing if you failed, you had to play another 2 hrs to recoup what you lost. But if you had unlimited time to play, what risk was there? If you couldn't risk that time because you have a family, kids and a life outside the game, you obviously didn't play them. DOes that make those people dumb or just smart for avoiding what ammounts to the biggest time sink ever? Your memories of EQ by the way are just memories and VERY few people ever wish to repeat them. I don't know a single person who used to play EQ that would ever go back to that sort of gameplay. Not a one. I guess we're all stupid dummies now, right?
The fact you equate WORK with a game only proves just how "off" your thinking is and how out of touch you are with what a GAME is supposed to be about.
Your right, you are dummies now. WoW Raids are so much easier then EQ1 raids. Have you ever been on an EQ1 raid? How can you even say they are close to the same?
WoW raids can be tried over and over again. EQ1 raids, if you failed, that was it for the night. PERIOD. In WoW you wipe on a raid, it takes maybe 10 to 20 minutes to get back and ready to try again. EQ1 if you wipe its over, done. It takes way longer to get back up and ready to try again and on some raids it is impossiable to even try again. You can honestly tell me that WoW has anything as hard as breaking into Fear or how about clearing SSRA or even getting a chance to raid "CandyLand" (Vex Thal) WoW raids are fun but do not come close to the fun of EQ1 raids. Its all comes back to Risk vs Reward.
The whole point of an MMO is to get the player to play for as long as possiable. MMOs are all time sinks, how can you say other wise. EQ made the time in game fun, were WoW was only fun for so long then it got boring. I played EQ1 for over 5 years without taking a break, I played WoW for less then 2 years. That should tell you that EQ1 was way more fun then WoW for me. I loved how in EQ1 you knew way more people outside your guild. I loved how you could come across a random person in the world that would be willing to help you at the drop of a hat. You do not get that in the "next" gen games. The EQ1 Community was way better then any other community to date. (for the games that I have played).
I know many people that are dieing for another EQ1 type game with new graphics. Maybe its just the people I game with but I have a feeling that we are not alone. Quest are great but they are not something that should be handed out like candy.
Every game you play requires work and time. PERIOD. Games are made for fun but they take work and time to beat, always have and always will. Shit Super Mario Bros took work to beat the first time you played it. SO don't give me this bullshit about how out of touch I am with what a game is supposed to be about. I play games because I love problem solving. Games are nothing but giant puzzles that need to be solved and that is why I play games. I play MMOs because I enjoy solving puzzles/problems with a group of people but most of the new MMOs are so simple that it takes no brain power at all.
I am sick of MMOs holding your dam hand though the whole game, Why can't their be risk? Why do you feel you need to be given the greatest rewards without having to go though a lot of work to get it?
The answer is that todays gamers want everything now without any effort, NONE. WoW is a great game but it takes no effort to play, everything laid out for you, there are no risks. Death means nothing.
this thread is fail cause mmos are more popular then ever because of wow and to be able to solo without having to group with retards all day with the iq of a bag of rocks so there is no problem its just YOU
See your wrong, the only reason MMOs are more popular now is that the games are so dumbed down that any moron with a computer and internet can play. Gone are the days that it took smart gamers to beat raids or boss mobs. Gone are the days of socializing while hunting and killing. Gone are the days of helping others because you remember what it was like.
Remember hell levels in EQ1? I do, I leveled 2 charaters though the hell levels. A Warrior and a Necromancer.
Remember dieing in EQ and asking yourself, how the hell am I going to get that corpse? I do.
Remember finding those great group hunting spots in high level zones were everyone in the group had to be on their toes or you wiped? I do.
The problem is that most MMOs today require you to do endless amounts of quest for exp. I am so sick of doing quests that I cannot play any of the new MMOs for more then a month before I am bored out of my mind. (WAR is okay because I can level on PvP only which is group content) Grinding is slower then doing the quests and most of the quest are designed to be run solo.
Today most gamers what everything now now now. Back in the day it was all about working hard for what you got instead of getting everything you want with little work. Todays games cater to the new generation of "I WANT IT NOW AND FOR NOTHING" group of players.
I just want a game that brings back the whole Risk vs Reward system that EQ1 had. The bigger the risk the better the reward. No game has that today. No more risk for the players but they still get the rewards.
Go ahead and compare the FAQs and tactics required for some of the tougher raids in WOW with the tank and spankers of EQ. Just because there wern't guides back then, doesn't make them harder. You didn't need any more smarts to beat raids back in the 90s than you do now. You just needed 10 hrs instead of 2...and no life of course;) Slight exageration, but not too far off. 1 person of 20 or 40 can still wipe a raid in seconds in WOW. EQ was about time conmitment, knowing if you failed, you had to play another 2 hrs to recoup what you lost. But if you had unlimited time to play, what risk was there? If you couldn't risk that time because you have a family, kids and a life outside the game, you obviously didn't play them. DOes that make those people dumb or just smart for avoiding what ammounts to the biggest time sink ever? Your memories of EQ by the way are just memories and VERY few people ever wish to repeat them. I don't know a single person who used to play EQ that would ever go back to that sort of gameplay. Not a one. I guess we're all stupid dummies now, right?
The fact you equate WORK with a game only proves just how "off" your thinking is and how out of touch you are with what a GAME is supposed to be about.
Is there nothing you enjoy that requires you to work for it? To get better at a sport, you must work your muscles to become stronger and to endure more. You must learn strategies to play more efficiently. You must work with your team to become better at executing things together. To become a good musician, you must practice to become good. To get better at sex, you must work at it.
Most of the things worth having, you have to work for and I'd say most people enjoy working for it. This isn't in defense of what the other person said or of tedious gameplay, just food for thought so that you may never use the "games shouldn't require work" argument again.
P.S. - I can use WoW as an example too. To raid in WoW, you need skilled players that know their class. To become a skilled player, the player must work at it. To know your class, you must research and practice various things while leveling up. The act of leveling up is considered work by most, especially for those that don't like questing. Learning how to work together as a team, so that you don't wipe the raid soon after you start, requires work. The raid leader must put work into the game in order to be knowledable enough to even lead the raid. He must know all of the classes, what buffs they have, how the classes mix with each other, and strategies for overcoming the challenges ahead. He must also manage resources, such as players, time, and items. In other words, even WoW requires work, but work doesn't necessarily mean you're doing something unenjoyable.
I wish there was an mmorpg with the main focus was grouping and exploring. People like to solo and thats fine there should be classes designed for people who like to solo, i think EQ had the best idea with this with the necromancer/Beastmaster. But I find myself lately in every mmorpg getting very bored because I am soloing all the time and when its time to group its either at the very end of the game just raiding the same end content for loot. What ever happened to when mmorpgs were about grouping with others and exploring?
I wonder if there aren't enough grouping options in games because there aren't enough people who really want grouping options?
In many games I play I see these types of posts. And then a plethora of people come out on the forums complaining they can't get groups. Yet I always wonder why they just don't group up together? If a particular game has so many people who want group play, maybe they should organize so they can better enjoy their time?
To that end, how many times have I see "looking for group for...." on the public channels only to see other people shouting the same thing. Yet they don't get together?
My guess is that a good many people are tired of pickup groups and tired of the attitudes of many gamers. Maybe even tired of "gamers".
They join kinships or clans or Guilds in order to find people who they enjoy grouping with. Otherwise they just make their own fun.
The people who want groups and more importantly, want pickup groups are vocal but not a majority
And lastly, most people seem to want to join an already formed group but don't want to make groups themselves.
When Lord of the Rings came out there were many quests that required groups. Many people ended up leaving (myself included) who were not inclined to spend their time looking for a group and dealing with some of the attitudes out there. Suddenly Turbine makes it so that there is more solo content and many (including myself) came back.
I think that a good many of the old school mmo players are a minority and that now that mmo's are a bit more mainstream we are getting many people who are not enamored of the whole group mentality and will not spend their time just shouting "looking for group" in order to play for 30 minutes and possibly have a bad time with a bad group.
Personally I would rather solo than have a chance of a bad group.
I also think that if players want to group they need to organize better and find others who are like minded.
It always surprises me when I am in a guild in a game and I see that same someone sign on and say "hey guys, anything going on tonight"? If there isn't they then log off.
No attempt at putting something together or even looking for other similar types of people.
If you like to group then make it happen and of course join a game that has grouping content. Perhaps even put up with slightly inferior rewards for the gameplay experience of grouping.
I do know that LOTRO has a lot of grouping opportunities for those who are looking for that type of thing.
Did you play team sports growing up? Or did you like team sports at all? Most people who like team sports do not want to be team captain. If given a choice of shooting hoops by themselves or playing 2 on 2, they'd choose 2 on 2. But just because they like team sports doesn't mean they'll go door to door in the neighborhood, asking kids if they want to play. Most people are uncomfortable approaching people they don't know and asking them to join them in an activity. Instead, they'd prefer to do something alone and wait for someone with that kind of confidence in themselves to form a team.
It's no different with online games. The games are full of people who prefer to follow, if they even want to group at all. Whoever starts a group is in charge of forming the group, ensuring there's no drama, knowing the fights, being a good strategist, and so on. It's a lot to ask from one person and most people don't want that. Because of the stress involved with being the group leader, sometimes even the group leaders want a day off, and would prefer to join a group than to start one.
Maybe you're one of those leaders, which would explain why you don't see it any other way. But everyone has the ability to look at things from another's point of view. So look at it from a timid person's point of view, who does so happen to love to group, but doesn't have the self confidence to ask others to follow him.
I am fortunate enough to have seen boths sides of that, so I know what it's like. I started off being the guy who didn't have enough confidence in himself. Now I lead college learning teams, with adults twice my age following my lead, because they like the way I do things, and warbands on occasion in WAR, when there isn't a leader worth following. Part of being a leader is having the knowledge to do the job and understanding the people who follow you. You can't expect some random person on the internet to be a born again leader or a natural leader. Some people have it, most don't.
You know that actually is a very good point.
Still, if you like grouping and want to play in a social game you (the royal you) are just going to have to make an effort. I can easily understand why someone would not want to lead a group but just because you start one doesn't mean you have to lead it:
"Putting together a group for 'the Castle of 1000 deaths', any interested please pm me. If anyone is interested and would like to teach the instance, please pm me as well"
or
"putting together a group for 'Castle of 1006 deaths', anyone welcome. People with experience a plus but if not then we will just find our own way ; )"
Otherwise, what I'm seeing, if your point is to be taken, is that we have many people who come to forums and complain about not grouping but can't bring themselves to form groups in the game. Or, many people who come to forums for groups who can be leaders but are not being proactive in making it happen as there are (or so people say) many people looking for groups yet these forum posters can't seem to find them?
I understand the idea of not wanting to lead it and even to a certain level of shyness. As long as we are sharing stories "I" used to be so painfully shy I couldn't raise my hand in class. Today I can walk out on a stage with 1,000 plus people and improvise a scene without even batting an eye. I get it. But it still doesn't explain why we keep seeing so many people posting these "We need more games with grouping" and yet every game I've played (except for Lineage 2) has people screaming for groups.
Perhaps if some of these players would lose the idea that you need the "perfect" group and can find your way through on your own, you'd see more grouping. And, as I've stated, if the people who want/need groups and who come to forums to demand them were only a bit more proactive in their communities then perhaps they would have more groups.
I find it highly doubtful that so many of the pro-group people in this thread are shrinking violets in the games they play when they state their claims so boldly.
If you want groups then make it happen.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I wish there was an mmorpg with the main focus was grouping and exploring. People like to solo and thats fine there should be classes designed for people who like to solo, i think EQ had the best idea with this with the necromancer/Beastmaster. But I find myself lately in every mmorpg getting very bored because I am soloing all the time and when its time to group its either at the very end of the game just raiding the same end content for loot. What ever happened to when mmorpgs were about grouping with others and exploring?
I wonder if there aren't enough grouping options in games because there aren't enough people who really want grouping options?
In many games I play I see these types of posts. And then a plethora of people come out on the forums complaining they can't get groups. Yet I always wonder why they just don't group up together? If a particular game has so many people who want group play, maybe they should organize so they can better enjoy their time?
To that end, how many times have I see "looking for group for...." on the public channels only to see other people shouting the same thing. Yet they don't get together?
My guess is that a good many people are tired of pickup groups and tired of the attitudes of many gamers. Maybe even tired of "gamers".
They join kinships or clans or Guilds in order to find people who they enjoy grouping with. Otherwise they just make their own fun.
The people who want groups and more importantly, want pickup groups are vocal but not a majority
And lastly, most people seem to want to join an already formed group but don't want to make groups themselves.
When Lord of the Rings came out there were many quests that required groups. Many people ended up leaving (myself included) who were not inclined to spend their time looking for a group and dealing with some of the attitudes out there. Suddenly Turbine makes it so that there is more solo content and many (including myself) came back.
I think that a good many of the old school mmo players are a minority and that now that mmo's are a bit more mainstream we are getting many people who are not enamored of the whole group mentality and will not spend their time just shouting "looking for group" in order to play for 30 minutes and possibly have a bad time with a bad group.
Personally I would rather solo than have a chance of a bad group.
I also think that if players want to group they need to organize better and find others who are like minded.
It always surprises me when I am in a guild in a game and I see that same someone sign on and say "hey guys, anything going on tonight"? If there isn't they then log off.
No attempt at putting something together or even looking for other similar types of people.
If you like to group then make it happen and of course join a game that has grouping content. Perhaps even put up with slightly inferior rewards for the gameplay experience of grouping.
I do know that LOTRO has a lot of grouping opportunities for those who are looking for that type of thing.
Did you play team sports growing up? Or did you like team sports at all? Most people who like team sports do not want to be team captain. If given a choice of shooting hoops by themselves or playing 2 on 2, they'd choose 2 on 2. But just because they like team sports doesn't mean they'll go door to door in the neighborhood, asking kids if they want to play. Most people are uncomfortable approaching people they don't know and asking them to join them in an activity. Instead, they'd prefer to do something alone and wait for someone with that kind of confidence in themselves to form a team.
It's no different with online games. The games are full of people who prefer to follow, if they even want to group at all. Whoever starts a group is in charge of forming the group, ensuring there's no drama, knowing the fights, being a good strategist, and so on. It's a lot to ask from one person and most people don't want that. Because of the stress involved with being the group leader, sometimes even the group leaders want a day off, and would prefer to join a group than to start one.
Maybe you're one of those leaders, which would explain why you don't see it any other way. But everyone has the ability to look at things from another's point of view. So look at it from a timid person's point of view, who does so happen to love to group, but doesn't have the self confidence to ask others to follow him.
I am fortunate enough to have seen boths sides of that, so I know what it's like. I started off being the guy who didn't have enough confidence in himself. Now I lead college learning teams, with adults twice my age following my lead, because they like the way I do things, and warbands on occasion in WAR, when there isn't a leader worth following. Part of being a leader is having the knowledge to do the job and understanding the people who follow you. You can't expect some random person on the internet to be a born again leader or a natural leader. Some people have it, most don't.
You know that actually is a very good point.
Still, if you like grouping and want to play in a social game you (the royal you) are just going to have to make an effort. I can easily understand why someone would not want to lead a group but just because you start one doesn't mean you have to lead it:
"Putting together a group for 'the Castle of 1000 deaths', any interested please pm me. If anyone is interested and would like to teach the instance, please pm me as well"
or
"putting together a group for 'Castle of 1006 deaths', anyone welcome. People with experience a plus but if not then we will just find our own way ; )"
Otherwise, what I'm seeing, if your point is to be taken, is that we have many people who come to forums and complain about not grouping but can't bring themselves to form groups in the game. Or, many people who come to forums for groups who can be leaders but are not being proactive in making it happen as there are (or so people say) many people looking for groups yet these forum posters can't seem to find them?
I understand the idea of not wanting to lead it and even to a certain level of shyness. As long as we are sharing stories "I" used to be so painfully shy I couldn't raise my hand in class. Today I can walk out on a stage with 1,000 plus people and improvise a scene without even batting an eye. I get it. But it still doesn't explain why we keep seeing so many people posting these "We need more games with grouping" and yet every game I've played (except for Lineage 2) has people screaming for groups.
Perhaps if some of these players would lose the idea that you need the "perfect" group and can find your way through on your own, you'd see more grouping. And, as I've stated, if the people who want/need groups and who come to forums to demand them were only a bit more proactive in their communities then perhaps they would have more groups.
I find it highly doubtful that so many of the pro-group people in this thread are shrinking violets in the games they play when they state their claims so boldly.
If you want groups then make it happen.
My problem is that grouping in most of the newer games has no benefits. None. The quests are setup for solo play and the group quests are few and far between until you hit the end game, then the group quests are raids. What I want is a game like EQ1 with new lore and a new world. EQ1 people could solo if they wanted to solo but groups were better exp and had alot more content.
The problem for me is not being able to find a group but finding things for the group to do that I can not do solo.
this thread is fail cause mmos are more popular then ever because of wow and to be able to solo without having to group with retards all day with the iq of a bag of rocks so there is no problem its just YOU
See your wrong, the only reason MMOs are more popular now is that the games are so dumbed down that any moron with a computer and internet can play. Gone are the days that it took smart gamers to beat raids or boss mobs. Gone are the days of socializing while hunting and killing. Gone are the days of helping others because you remember what it was like.
Remember hell levels in EQ1? I do, I leveled 2 charaters though the hell levels. A Warrior and a Necromancer.
Remember dieing in EQ and asking yourself, how the hell am I going to get that corpse? I do.
Remember finding those great group hunting spots in high level zones were everyone in the group had to be on their toes or you wiped? I do.
The problem is that most MMOs today require you to do endless amounts of quest for exp. I am so sick of doing quests that I cannot play any of the new MMOs for more then a month before I am bored out of my mind. (WAR is okay because I can level on PvP only which is group content) Grinding is slower then doing the quests and most of the quest are designed to be run solo.
Today most gamers what everything now now now. Back in the day it was all about working hard for what you got instead of getting everything you want with little work. Todays games cater to the new generation of "I WANT IT NOW AND FOR NOTHING" group of players.
I just want a game that brings back the whole Risk vs Reward system that EQ1 had. The bigger the risk the better the reward. No game has that today. No more risk for the players but they still get the rewards.
Go ahead and compare the FAQs and tactics required for some of the tougher raids in WOW with the tank and spankers of EQ. Just because there wern't guides back then, doesn't make them harder. You didn't need any more smarts to beat raids back in the 90s than you do now. You just needed 10 hrs instead of 2...and no life of course;) Slight exageration, but not too far off. 1 person of 20 or 40 can still wipe a raid in seconds in WOW. EQ was about time conmitment, knowing if you failed, you had to play another 2 hrs to recoup what you lost. But if you had unlimited time to play, what risk was there? If you couldn't risk that time because you have a family, kids and a life outside the game, you obviously didn't play them. DOes that make those people dumb or just smart for avoiding what ammounts to the biggest time sink ever? Your memories of EQ by the way are just memories and VERY few people ever wish to repeat them. I don't know a single person who used to play EQ that would ever go back to that sort of gameplay. Not a one. I guess we're all stupid dummies now, right?
The fact you equate WORK with a game only proves just how "off" your thinking is and how out of touch you are with what a GAME is supposed to be about.
Is there nothing you enjoy that requires you to work for it? To get better at a sport, you must work your muscles to become stronger and to endure more. You must learn strategies to play more efficiently. You must work with your team to become better at executing things together. To become a good musician, you must practice to become good. To get better at sex, you must work at it.
Most of the things worth having, you have to work for and I'd say most people enjoy working for it. This isn't in defense of what the other person said or of tedious gameplay, just food for thought so that you may never use the "games shouldn't require work" argument again.
P.S. - I can use WoW as an example too. To raid in WoW, you need skilled players that know their class. To become a skilled player, the player must work at it. To know your class, you must research and practice various things while leveling up. The act of leveling up is considered work by most, especially for those that don't like questing. Learning how to work together as a team, so that you don't wipe the raid soon after you start, requires work. The raid leader must put work into the game in order to be knowledable enough to even lead the raid. He must know all of the classes, what buffs they have, how the classes mix with each other, and strategies for overcoming the challenges ahead. He must also manage resources, such as players, time, and items. In other words, even WoW requires work, but work doesn't necessarily mean you're doing something unenjoyable.
Theres a fine line between effort and work in a game though and EQ felt like work. It was tedious. It might've seemed enjoyable because it was new. But its not new anymore. No one wants to wait around with 80 other people for a respawn timer. Thats not difficult Its a time sink. Anything worth earning requires effort and the coolest things in newer MMOs still require effort. Theyr'e not handed to you. You're just not kicked in the nuts as much;)
And to the one above, what the heck is wrong with having a few shots a night to try and raid a dungeon? Are you that deluded that you think its a GOOD THING that you only get one shot a night? A raid in EQ isn't harder just because you have less chances at it, due respawn timers, lines, competition ect..that doesn't make the actual RAID hard. It AGAIN comes back to time. You didn't need any more expertise to beat a raid in EQ over one in WOW. You needed TIME. Not more time to learn it. You just thought it took more time, because it was spread out more and you didn't have any FAQs to cheat. It was just more time waiting around. Theres a difference. EQ raids were NOT in any way harder. They were actually simpler in design. WOW's raids are actually far more complex due to the scripting and deeper classes. EQs were hard due to the travel, waiting and downtime. WOW's are hard but fun. EQ's were hard but tedius. Understand the difference?
Well if you look at how MMOs encourage/force grouping it is easy to see why people prefer to spend their time solo. The way MMOs play out, being heavily automated means that to make something doable for a single player that it by defacto is too easy for a group, the reason is because the encounter has to be statistically probable for the player to beat it, since nearly everything in MMOs are centered around stats. So if a player has a 90% chance to beat a mob then 4 people are definately going to beat it and with no issue.
To create group content the mobs merely become stronger making a single player have a very poor chance if not impossible time of beating it by himself, to supliment other players are needed, but not just more players but specific types, like a healer and a tank and DPS characters, the reason is all about statistics, you need damage to kill it in a timely manner but also a character to holds it's attention so the others will not get hurt, because being hurt is a given since you can't do anything to defend yourself beyond chance, and since people will be hurt a person to heal is needed.
What this means is that group content is next to impossible to do for the single player and that a rather rigid formula of character types are required to complete it, even for skillbased games. You do not group to make things easier, you group because if you want to do the content you have to.
But look at games where people want to group even when they do not have to, like FPS games, you can do the the campaign by yourself but having another person makes it easier, especially at higher difficulties. You are not barred from doing all the content by yourself but you will probably be able to do it faster with other people. The point is grouping is benificial and not forced on you, many MMOs cross their arms and refuse to let single players experience all the content and you feel forced into grouping to progress. This is why games like WoW are doing well, you don't have to group to level, there is forced grouping at the end if you want good gear but most the game doesn't force you too.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
I wish there was an mmorpg with the main focus was grouping and exploring. People like to solo and thats fine there should be classes designed for people who like to solo, i think EQ had the best idea with this with the necromancer/Beastmaster. But I find myself lately in every mmorpg getting very bored because I am soloing all the time and when its time to group its either at the very end of the game just raiding the same end content for loot. What ever happened to when mmorpgs were about grouping with others and exploring?
An old but interesting debate.
Personally, I prefer to solo and only group when absolutely necessary. The main reason being, the majority of the folk I meet in online games are complete asswipes.
The day I'm forced to group consistently is the day I look for something else.
Personal perspective: Forced grouping ruins games.
If I want to group, then I'll group. I don't want to be put in a position where I have to group with people whose company I may not enjoy, purely on the basis that there is no alternative than spending hours AFK or LFG.
I play games like I read books or listen to music; I do it when I want to do it; I consider it very very bizarre that people are willing/able to log onto a game and sit around for hours waiting for the fun to begin. Just doesn't make sense to me.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
I wish there was an mmorpg with the main focus was grouping and exploring. People like to solo and thats fine there should be classes designed for people who like to solo, i think EQ had the best idea with this with the necromancer/Beastmaster. But I find myself lately in every mmorpg getting very bored because I am soloing all the time and when its time to group its either at the very end of the game just raiding the same end content for loot. What ever happened to when mmorpgs were about grouping with others and exploring?
In FF11, grouping is essential to progress in the game.
I personally prefer games where you can solo if you want and you can group if you want. Why force the gaming community to pick a side when you can have both.
I play games like I read books or listen to music; I do it when I want to do it; I consider it very very bizarre that people are willing/able to log onto a game and sit around for hours waiting for the fun to begin. Just doesn't make sense to me.
Making forming a group horrendously difficult is a seperate, but important issue. Tank/Healer/DPS games make forming groups painful. That sort of thing has to stop. That said, there shouldn't be forced grouping because you can run into massive jerks and sometimes it is best just to avoid that. When you do form a group however, it should be easy to do, you should still easily be able to find challenges (e.g. a two or three person group shouldn't trivialize content and also be impossible to do real group content with), and it should reward you for making a group.
this thread is fail cause mmos are more popular then ever because of wow and to be able to solo without having to group with retards all day with the iq of a bag of rocks so there is no problem its just YOU
See your wrong, the only reason MMOs are more popular now is that the games are so dumbed down that any moron with a computer and internet can play. Gone are the days that it took smart gamers to beat raids or boss mobs. Gone are the days of socializing while hunting and killing. Gone are the days of helping others because you remember what it was like.
Remember hell levels in EQ1? I do, I leveled 2 charaters though the hell levels. A Warrior and a Necromancer.
Remember dieing in EQ and asking yourself, how the hell am I going to get that corpse? I do.
Remember finding those great group hunting spots in high level zones were everyone in the group had to be on their toes or you wiped? I do.
The problem is that most MMOs today require you to do endless amounts of quest for exp. I am so sick of doing quests that I cannot play any of the new MMOs for more then a month before I am bored out of my mind. (WAR is okay because I can level on PvP only which is group content) Grinding is slower then doing the quests and most of the quest are designed to be run solo.
Today most gamers what everything now now now. Back in the day it was all about working hard for what you got instead of getting everything you want with little work. Todays games cater to the new generation of "I WANT IT NOW AND FOR NOTHING" group of players.
I just want a game that brings back the whole Risk vs Reward system that EQ1 had. The bigger the risk the better the reward. No game has that today. No more risk for the players but they still get the rewards.
Go ahead and compare the FAQs and tactics required for some of the tougher raids in WOW with the tank and spankers of EQ. Just because there wern't guides back then, doesn't make them harder. You didn't need any more smarts to beat raids back in the 90s than you do now. You just needed 10 hrs instead of 2...and no life of course;) Slight exageration, but not too far off. 1 person of 20 or 40 can still wipe a raid in seconds in WOW. EQ was about time conmitment, knowing if you failed, you had to play another 2 hrs to recoup what you lost. But if you had unlimited time to play, what risk was there? If you couldn't risk that time because you have a family, kids and a life outside the game, you obviously didn't play them. DOes that make those people dumb or just smart for avoiding what ammounts to the biggest time sink ever? Your memories of EQ by the way are just memories and VERY few people ever wish to repeat them. I don't know a single person who used to play EQ that would ever go back to that sort of gameplay. Not a one. I guess we're all stupid dummies now, right?
The fact you equate WORK with a game only proves just how "off" your thinking is and how out of touch you are with what a GAME is supposed to be about.
Is there nothing you enjoy that requires you to work for it? To get better at a sport, you must work your muscles to become stronger and to endure more. You must learn strategies to play more efficiently. You must work with your team to become better at executing things together. To become a good musician, you must practice to become good. To get better at sex, you must work at it.
Most of the things worth having, you have to work for and I'd say most people enjoy working for it. This isn't in defense of what the other person said or of tedious gameplay, just food for thought so that you may never use the "games shouldn't require work" argument again.
P.S. - I can use WoW as an example too. To raid in WoW, you need skilled players that know their class. To become a skilled player, the player must work at it. To know your class, you must research and practice various things while leveling up. The act of leveling up is considered work by most, especially for those that don't like questing. Learning how to work together as a team, so that you don't wipe the raid soon after you start, requires work. The raid leader must put work into the game in order to be knowledable enough to even lead the raid. He must know all of the classes, what buffs they have, how the classes mix with each other, and strategies for overcoming the challenges ahead. He must also manage resources, such as players, time, and items. In other words, even WoW requires work, but work doesn't necessarily mean you're doing something unenjoyable.
Theres a fine line between effort and work in a game though and EQ felt like work. It was tedious. It might've seemed enjoyable because it was new. But its not new anymore. No one wants to wait around with 80 other people for a respawn timer. Thats not difficult Its a time sink. Anything worth earning requires effort and the coolest things in newer MMOs still require effort. Theyr'e not handed to you. You're just not kicked in the nuts as much;)
And to the one above, what the heck is wrong with having a few shots a night to try and raid a dungeon? Are you that deluded that you think its a GOOD THING that you only get one shot a night? A raid in EQ isn't harder just because you have less chances at it, due respawn timers, lines, competition ect..that doesn't make the actual RAID hard. It AGAIN comes back to time. You didn't need any more expertise to beat a raid in EQ over one in WOW. You needed TIME. Not more time to learn it. You just thought it took more time, because it was spread out more and you didn't have any FAQs to cheat. It was just more time waiting around. Theres a difference. EQ raids were NOT in any way harder. They were actually simpler in design. WOW's raids are actually far more complex due to the scripting and deeper classes. EQs were hard due to the travel, waiting and downtime. WOW's are hard but fun. EQ's were hard but tedius. Understand the difference?
No I do not understand because WoW raids not not hard at all. Nothing in WoW is hard, nothing. WoW is on easy mode. There is nothing wrong with that but do not pretend that WoW is hard. EQ1 raids were hard due to alot of factors but mostly because it took everyone on the raid doing everything correct to win. WoW has room for error, EQ1 did not.
Deeper classes in WoW? This alone makes me think you never played EQ1 a day in your life, the classes in EQ1 had alot more depth then then ones in WoW. You need alot more brain power to figure out raids in EQ then you did in WoW. Try breaking into fear with the average WoW player and tell me that WoW is harder.
Yes it is a good thing you get one shot a night at a raid event because that makes the players in the raid make sure they are ready and willing to work hard to get this raid done or they will have to do this again tomorrow after a long corpse run tonight. It made the players smarter, it forced players to learn more about there class, it made players better.
When you can try something without any risk at all, over and over again it is easy to beat any event. It takes no effort.
Effort and work go hand in hand. EQ1 was only work if you made it work, I enjoyed my time in EQ1 and when my guild decided to try out WoW I moved with them because I loved my guild, after a year in WoW most of the guild had left and gone on to other games or back to EQ1.
Honestly its a waste of time trying to talk to you because you think WoW is a hard game which it is not... WoW is on easy mode. They hand everything to you on a golden plater. No risk, no punishment for failure, nothing but easy rewards for little effort.
Finding a balance between solo content and group content is difficult to do, and a hard balance to maintain throughout the life of a MMO. Example Eve Online, does this have enough solo content for someone, and are they forced to group enough as well? LOTRO I think is one of the best for this because you can solo the game but in order to participate in the books you have to group up. Older games seemed to have this down, EQ if you didn't want to solo you didn't have to but you could if you wanted to. Asheron's Call you could solo the entire game but you had to group to take part in very large events like the olthoi queen quest, or Lady Aerifall quest.
There will never be the perfect balance for everyone because each of us has different expectations of how to play a game. The mechanics in each game change why we want to group...etc. So is the problem with todays MMORPGS that there is to much soloing? I don't think so, I think the problem with todays MMORPGS is there is no enjoying the journey, instead it is about getting to max level as quick as possible then saying you finished the game. MMORPGS are supposed to be a world that changes the expands, that keeps you following a story just like the Paper and Pencil RPG's of old. At least that is how I see it.
This is directed at Tdogskal: And this is not an attack on you btw....The reason why WoW may seem like its so easy is because of the internet....Hell most videogames in general are easier now because of the internet. You can find the latest game guides, cheats, faqs, and whatever else before the damn game is even released because of the net....Public Test Realms are guilty of this as well, but its understandable why the release them. If you honestly believe that EQ1 would be just as diffucult if it had all of the available resources that are in force today then you are gravely mistaken.... What I find most diffucult to understand is that for whatever reason people think that WoW is just a cake walk. It has definitely gotten easier in terms of leveling and gaining xp. WoW never had a death penalty but thats another beast entirely....My point is if that you take away the resources from WoW or like I said most video games many of them would make some people cry. The internet has made all games much more easier to defeat, raid, or whatever. And pre-BC WoW raids were fucking hard....How would you know how to kill any of those bosses without a guide or some strat? (Hakkar, Twin Emps.Rag, Nef, hell even some of the bosses before them?) You would wipe an ungodly amount of times trying to figure them out. And anyone who says that their guild figured it out without them is either lying or were possibly on the PTR or just some super high end guild that Blizz sleeps next too :P....
Comments
I don't want to solo. It's like playing a single player game.
I don't want to group. The startup and maintenance costs are just too high.
I want to solo with other people.
That means that I want a game to have three or four big, central hunting grounds where all the players congregate and tackle the monsters. Just tear into the monsters as a single group of players. If players want to closely cooperate, they do. If players want to pick off the occasional monster solo, they do. Things can be come quite fluid that way. Players would be obligated to spread out to a degree through character collision detection and for practical, tactical considerations.
I want no levels.
That means that once you have a player character, you can have fun with anyone. You aren't limited to people at or near your level. Levels and multiplayer games do not mix well.
I want a focus on group achievements.
That means that there can be few personal achievements. Whatever victories are in store for the players produce rewards for the group as a whole. Personal achievements get in the way of players wanting to group (contention over who gets what). A poster said above that he soloed because he wanted the rewards for himself. I want to get people thinking about how they will gain by everyone collectively defeating the challenge.
I want a tightly-packed world.
That means that players don't naturally tend to spread out all over the place. That's something else that doesn't mesh with a multiplayer game. It's possible to have exploration and new content without having players racing off in all directions.
One technique is to use a wave. Create the world as a mile wide strip that is 1000 miles long. Start the players at one end and let them chew through the content from one end of the strip to the other. Exploration is constant, and the players stay clustered as they work across the strip. Also, the world progresses - players don't keep repeating the same content. Further, the publisher doesn't need to create all the content on day one because the players are working through it linearly.
I could continue, but I'd like to see solo players working together. No formal groups. Just work as closely with other people as you care to, knowing that the rewards come to everyone when the challenge is defeated (the prisoner is rescued from the dungeon, the monster fortress is cleared, etc)
As a simple example of this, I just played Warhammer Online for the first (and last) time. I started a dwarf and got into the attacks at the fort. I guess that was one of those community quest things. That's close to what I'm talking about here. Players tackle a community problem without having to group.
The experience would have been far better if more players had been present (they had already leveled and moved on) and if the world had changed once the boss, Skag, had been defeated. That fort should have been taken, some gain should have come as a result of the capture, and all the players should have moved on together. We'd know each other and we'd find a natural sense of community. That would be true if you played every day for 10 hours or only a couple hours on a weekend - you'd always be thrown in with the same community as it did the wave down the strip.
Just don't stay away too long or you might miss some of the fun.
I'm in a group 100% of the time I'm online in WAR, but that could be due to the open group system and that I RvR all the time.
As to your question, I reply with another. Why would a person choose to solo, instead of group. Answer that, and then maybe ask a lot more questions and solve them, then you might have your answer. For instance, a person may solo because they may not have the time to group or because the community is horrid and they'd rather play the game alone than with those people. Now if you really want people to group, you have to ask and solve why the community is horrid and why people don't have time to group. Now you see how improbable it is to solve these problems and then hopefully enlightenment will set in. That's when you realize that the best you can expect for is a game with good group and solo content.
I think both WoW, WAR, and LoTRO do a good job with this. WoW has group and solo content ranging from level 10ish to max level. WAR has group and solo content for people of all levels. LoTRO has group and solo content starting at low levels. WAR is equally group oriented at lvl 1 as they are at lvl 40, whereas WoW and LoTRO get more group oriented as the game goes by.
I'll pose another question. Groups may range from 5 people all the way up to 40 or more people in some games. That's only a small fraction of a server size. So why worry about if other people are soloing, when you could instead join or create a guild whose focus is on grouping at all levels of the game?
There's a tiime and a place for both. My main concern is hvaing to depend on other players to enjoy the game or to get things i need or would like to have. Reasons I dont like to group alot:
1. Low population times.
2. You hvae quests missons etc. and ppl end up not helping you complete them. Too focused on thier own quest instead of helping everyone. It has happened to me.
3. You party up and the complete randomness of boss drops causes you to hvae run thru the same party instance like 20+ times. It get annoying.
4. PPL quit in middle of instances either for Life issues or getting upset cause a boss didnt drop something they wanted.
This is just a few. I like to party up here and there but i dont want to have to depend on it if I can help it.
Played : WOW, LOTRO, COH/COV, EQ2, SWG, and WAR.
Playing EVE Online and AOC.
Wtg for SW:TOR and WOD
I have to strongly disagree with this. WoW and LotRO do NOT do a good job here (not sure about WAR, I hear it is better). In WoW if you group up for standard questing, then you've made all the content supremely trivial (and quite possibly lowered your exp rate). Grouping lowering the challenge is not good, but it is good that it is easy to group here. If you want to do a Dungeon or Raid, then you have to be very particular about how you setup your group. A 10-man (especially in the next patch) will require 3 healers, 2 tanks, and the rest DPS. Have trouble getting 3 healers? Then you can't do the content. Can't get 2 tanks? Then you can't do the content. The grouping here is very unfriendly and restrictive, making you suffer to try to get a group going, and this can take a good bit of time too. Suffering to even get a group for such content is bad design.
Grouping needs to be easier to do. A group of two people should still mean you face challenges and have meaningful content. A group of 5 people should not be a chore to make or do if you can find 5 talented people (as opposed to 5 talented people with the right class mix). Of course, the Tank-Healer-DPS system is always going to make people suffer in the latter way, and so that's one of the reasons why THD needs to be done away with. Grouping should be pure fun and rewarding if you aren't with idiots, not a massive pain to even get started on or something that makes content trivial.
The problem with yesterdays MMOs is that they had NO soloing options at all. No decent or fun options that is.
It isn't a problem now. Every MMO has group options. You just have to choose to use them instead of MIN/MAXing your time played/EXP ratio garbage that was taught to you by those OLDER MMOs. They didn't teach you to play a game to have fun. They programmed you to analize how quickly you can level, since the act of doing it was so mind numbingly tedious and limited, you had no choice. You HAD TO find the right spawn that rewarded you the best for your time to speed up the grind. Bad habits those old MMOs bred into you. You need to erase them from your memory.
Now in most MMOs, you just do whatever quest you find fun, kill whatever mob that you can, go to any zone you can survive in, because you'll always advance at a decent pace. You don't need to analyze anything. No need to wait around for help. No sitting in one spot for 4 hrs, pulling and taunting, resting, pull taunting and resting, ad nauseum. You just do what you want to do and have fun. Solo, group, raid, ect. Of course you can still MIN/MAX, but its not neccesary.
Eventually if you choose to be the best at a MMO, you will have to group. Its kind of forced upon you IF and only IF your desire to have the best and be the best. If you just want to play and have fun, you can continue to solo or group at your leasure, which is the way it ALWAYS should've been. Grouping is more difficult so it should have better rewards. You shouldn't be screwed though if you don't have the time to find a group, which again is the way it always should've been. Its just far harder and requires more resources to make GOOD content the caters to both playstyles instead of just one, which is why older MMOs only catered to one type of gamer.
this thread is fail cause mmos are more popular then ever because of wow and to be able to solo without having to group with retards all day with the iq of a bag of rocks so there is no problem its just YOU
Ericbelser and Kyleran I liked your posts. I didn't quote either of you because I want to give my own spin on this but I was nodding my head as I read your thoughts.
First, let me say that I've always defended soloing in mmorpgs. I've always felt that soloing should be an option but after my last attempts to play mmorpgs I've come to agree more and more with the people who call for forced grouping. I'm not sure if I would go quite that far but in order to ensure that people will group there needs to be some benefit to grouping. Soloing shouldn't be impossible but grouping should be the path of least resistance.
I'd also like to add that (for me at least) it's not just about getting into a group with people; it's also about working together as a group and, --gasp--, people actually talking to each other while grouped. So the points that Ericbelser made about the pace of combat and downtime were right on target. If you are constantly, frantically mashing buttons during combat you don't have time to toss off a quick comment (I'm talking about PUGs here and not guild groups using ventrillo). So combat needs to be a little slower paced and each fight should last long enough for you to use some tactics other than <spam your biggest damage attacks as fast as you can>.
After a fight or maybe after a few fights there needs to be a little recovery downtime. At least once in a while there needs to be some downtime because it's during those moments of rest between battles that people will start chatting and being social.
And working together as a group. Ok, here's the thing, I've played games in which grouping was little more than soloing in the presence of other people. The mobs were so easy to kill that even though I was in a group we weren't functioning as a group. We were all just in the same general area, each doing his/her own thing and not working together because we didn't need to. All that the group was for was so we could take credit for each others kills (usually to fullfill a quest requirement). So although we were in a group we weren't playing as a group, we were soloing while using a group mechanic to give us credit for other peoples' kills.
I can't say everything I'd like to say about this or my post would be too long so I'm going to list some bullet points that kill gouping in games. Ok, so what kills grouping?
1. Mobs are so weak relative to the players that you don't need to group.
2. You don't need other players to help with downtime recovery either.
3. Players actually profit more from soloing than from grouping thus making soloing the path of least resistance. Why bother putting together a group when it's quicker, easier, and more profitable to solo?
4. Heavily quest driven games make grouping even more awkward because everbody is always running around, never staying in one place for very long, and even if you do put together a group your quests will soon send you all running off in different directions so the group won't last very long.
And now I'll do a little whistfull whining. What I miss is the PUGing in old EQ. It was everywhere in that game. You couldn't swing a dead cat without hitting a group. And because it was so ubiquitous it was also very easy and usually fairly quick to get into a group. And because people wanted to be able to get into a group they were generally friendly and polite to each other (with some exceptions of course).
That's what I miss. Not the raiding. Raiding was too far to the other extreme for me. Too ordered, too structured, too unfriendly, and far too reliant on scheduling. But I do so very much miss the days of friendly pick-up-groups in EQ. Unfortunately I'm starting to think that it was a one time fluke and is now a thing of the past. I've never tried FFXI, maybe it still has something like that. But it's been out for a long time so I wonder if a starting player would have a very good experience in it.
See your wrong, the only reason MMOs are more popular now is that the games are so dumbed down that any moron with a computer and internet can play. Gone are the days that it took smart gamers to beat raids or boss mobs. Gone are the days of socializing while hunting and killing. Gone are the days of helping others because you remember what it was like.
Remember hell levels in EQ1? I do, I leveled 2 charaters though the hell levels. A Warrior and a Necromancer.
Remember dieing in EQ and asking yourself, how the hell am I going to get that corpse? I do.
Remember finding those great group hunting spots in high level zones were everyone in the group had to be on their toes or you wiped? I do.
The problem is that most MMOs today require you to do endless amounts of quest for exp. I am so sick of doing quests that I cannot play any of the new MMOs for more then a month before I am bored out of my mind. (WAR is okay because I can level on PvP only which is group content) Grinding is slower then doing the quests and most of the quest are designed to be run solo.
Today most gamers what everything now now now. Back in the day it was all about working hard for what you got instead of getting everything you want with little work. Todays games cater to the new generation of "I WANT IT NOW AND FOR NOTHING" group of players.
I just want a game that brings back the whole Risk vs Reward system that EQ1 had. The bigger the risk the better the reward. No game has that today. No more risk for the players but they still get the rewards.
Sooner or Later
I wonder if there aren't enough grouping options in games because there aren't enough people who really want grouping options?
In many games I play I see these types of posts. And then a plethora of people come out on the forums complaining they can't get groups. Yet I always wonder why they just don't group up together? If a particular game has so many people who want group play, maybe they should organize so they can better enjoy their time?
To that end, how many times have I see "looking for group for...." on the public channels only to see other people shouting the same thing. Yet they don't get together?
My guess is that a good many people are tired of pickup groups and tired of the attitudes of many gamers. Maybe even tired of "gamers".
They join kinships or clans or Guilds in order to find people who they enjoy grouping with. Otherwise they just make their own fun.
The people who want groups and more importantly, want pickup groups are vocal but not a majority
And lastly, most people seem to want to join an already formed group but don't want to make groups themselves.
When Lord of the Rings came out there were many quests that required groups. Many people ended up leaving (myself included) who were not inclined to spend their time looking for a group and dealing with some of the attitudes out there. Suddenly Turbine makes it so that there is more solo content and many (including myself) came back.
I think that a good many of the old school mmo players are a minority and that now that mmo's are a bit more mainstream we are getting many people who are not enamored of the whole group mentality and will not spend their time just shouting "looking for group" in order to play for 30 minutes and possibly have a bad time with a bad group.
Personally I would rather solo than have a chance of a bad group.
I also think that if players want to group they need to organize better and find others who are like minded.
It always surprises me when I am in a guild in a game and I see that same someone sign on and say "hey guys, anything going on tonight"? If there isn't they then log off.
No attempt at putting something together or even looking for other similar types of people.
If you like to group then make it happen and of course join a game that has grouping content. Perhaps even put up with slightly inferior rewards for the gameplay experience of grouping.
I do know that LOTRO has a lot of grouping opportunities for those who are looking for that type of thing.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
See your wrong, the only reason MMOs are more popular now is that the games are so dumbed down that any moron with a computer and internet can play. Gone are the days that it took smart gamers to beat raids or boss mobs. Gone are the days of socializing while hunting and killing. Gone are the days of helping others because you remember what it was like.
Remember hell levels in EQ1? I do, I leveled 2 charaters though the hell levels. A Warrior and a Necromancer.
Remember dieing in EQ and asking yourself, how the hell am I going to get that corpse? I do.
Remember finding those great group hunting spots in high level zones were everyone in the group had to be on their toes or you wiped? I do.
The problem is that most MMOs today require you to do endless amounts of quest for exp. I am so sick of doing quests that I cannot play any of the new MMOs for more then a month before I am bored out of my mind. (WAR is okay because I can level on PvP only which is group content) Grinding is slower then doing the quests and most of the quest are designed to be run solo.
Today most gamers what everything now now now. Back in the day it was all about working hard for what you got instead of getting everything you want with little work. Todays games cater to the new generation of "I WANT IT NOW AND FOR NOTHING" group of players.
I just want a game that brings back the whole Risk vs Reward system that EQ1 had. The bigger the risk the better the reward. No game has that today. No more risk for the players but they still get the rewards.
Go ahead and compare the FAQs and tactics required for some of the tougher raids in WOW with the tank and spankers of EQ. Just because there wern't guides back then, doesn't make them harder. You didn't need any more smarts to beat raids back in the 90s than you do now. You just needed 10 hrs instead of 2...and no life of course;) Slight exageration, but not too far off. 1 person of 20 or 40 can still wipe a raid in seconds in WOW. EQ was about time conmitment, knowing if you failed, you had to play another 2 hrs to recoup what you lost. But if you had unlimited time to play, what risk was there? If you couldn't risk that time because you have a family, kids and a life outside the game, you obviously didn't play them. DOes that make those people dumb or just smart for avoiding what ammounts to the biggest time sink ever? Your memories of EQ by the way are just memories and VERY few people ever wish to repeat them. I don't know a single person who used to play EQ that would ever go back to that sort of gameplay. Not a one. I guess we're all stupid dummies now, right?
The fact you equate WORK with a game only proves just how "off" your thinking is and how out of touch you are with what a GAME is supposed to be about.
I wonder if there aren't enough grouping options in games because there aren't enough people who really want grouping options?
In many games I play I see these types of posts. And then a plethora of people come out on the forums complaining they can't get groups. Yet I always wonder why they just don't group up together? If a particular game has so many people who want group play, maybe they should organize so they can better enjoy their time?
To that end, how many times have I see "looking for group for...." on the public channels only to see other people shouting the same thing. Yet they don't get together?
My guess is that a good many people are tired of pickup groups and tired of the attitudes of many gamers. Maybe even tired of "gamers".
They join kinships or clans or Guilds in order to find people who they enjoy grouping with. Otherwise they just make their own fun.
The people who want groups and more importantly, want pickup groups are vocal but not a majority
And lastly, most people seem to want to join an already formed group but don't want to make groups themselves.
When Lord of the Rings came out there were many quests that required groups. Many people ended up leaving (myself included) who were not inclined to spend their time looking for a group and dealing with some of the attitudes out there. Suddenly Turbine makes it so that there is more solo content and many (including myself) came back.
I think that a good many of the old school mmo players are a minority and that now that mmo's are a bit more mainstream we are getting many people who are not enamored of the whole group mentality and will not spend their time just shouting "looking for group" in order to play for 30 minutes and possibly have a bad time with a bad group.
Personally I would rather solo than have a chance of a bad group.
I also think that if players want to group they need to organize better and find others who are like minded.
It always surprises me when I am in a guild in a game and I see that same someone sign on and say "hey guys, anything going on tonight"? If there isn't they then log off.
No attempt at putting something together or even looking for other similar types of people.
If you like to group then make it happen and of course join a game that has grouping content. Perhaps even put up with slightly inferior rewards for the gameplay experience of grouping.
I do know that LOTRO has a lot of grouping opportunities for those who are looking for that type of thing.
Did you play team sports growing up? Or did you like team sports at all? Most people who like team sports do not want to be team captain. If given a choice of shooting hoops by themselves or playing 2 on 2, they'd choose 2 on 2. But just because they like team sports doesn't mean they'll go door to door in the neighborhood, asking kids if they want to play. Most people are uncomfortable approaching people they don't know and asking them to join them in an activity. Instead, they'd prefer to do something alone and wait for someone with that kind of confidence in themselves to form a team.
It's no different with online games. The games are full of people who prefer to follow, if they even want to group at all. Whoever starts a group is in charge of forming the group, ensuring there's no drama, knowing the fights, being a good strategist, and so on. It's a lot to ask from one person and most people don't want that. Because of the stress involved with being the group leader, sometimes even the group leaders want a day off, and would prefer to join a group than to start one.
Maybe you're one of those leaders, which would explain why you don't see it any other way. But everyone has the ability to look at things from another's point of view. So look at it from a timid person's point of view, who does so happen to love to group, but doesn't have the self confidence to ask others to follow him.
I am fortunate enough to have seen boths sides of that, so I know what it's like. I started off being the guy who didn't have enough confidence in himself. Now I lead college learning teams, with adults twice my age following my lead, because they like the way I do things, and warbands on occasion in WAR, when there isn't a leader worth following. Part of being a leader is having the knowledge to do the job and understanding the people who follow you. You can't expect some random person on the internet to be a born again leader or a natural leader. Some people have it, most don't.
See your wrong, the only reason MMOs are more popular now is that the games are so dumbed down that any moron with a computer and internet can play. Gone are the days that it took smart gamers to beat raids or boss mobs. Gone are the days of socializing while hunting and killing. Gone are the days of helping others because you remember what it was like.
Remember hell levels in EQ1? I do, I leveled 2 charaters though the hell levels. A Warrior and a Necromancer.
Remember dieing in EQ and asking yourself, how the hell am I going to get that corpse? I do.
Remember finding those great group hunting spots in high level zones were everyone in the group had to be on their toes or you wiped? I do.
The problem is that most MMOs today require you to do endless amounts of quest for exp. I am so sick of doing quests that I cannot play any of the new MMOs for more then a month before I am bored out of my mind. (WAR is okay because I can level on PvP only which is group content) Grinding is slower then doing the quests and most of the quest are designed to be run solo.
Today most gamers what everything now now now. Back in the day it was all about working hard for what you got instead of getting everything you want with little work. Todays games cater to the new generation of "I WANT IT NOW AND FOR NOTHING" group of players.
I just want a game that brings back the whole Risk vs Reward system that EQ1 had. The bigger the risk the better the reward. No game has that today. No more risk for the players but they still get the rewards.
Go ahead and compare the FAQs and tactics required for some of the tougher raids in WOW with the tank and spankers of EQ. Just because there wern't guides back then, doesn't make them harder. You didn't need any more smarts to beat raids back in the 90s than you do now. You just needed 10 hrs instead of 2...and no life of course;) Slight exageration, but not too far off. 1 person of 20 or 40 can still wipe a raid in seconds in WOW. EQ was about time conmitment, knowing if you failed, you had to play another 2 hrs to recoup what you lost. But if you had unlimited time to play, what risk was there? If you couldn't risk that time because you have a family, kids and a life outside the game, you obviously didn't play them. DOes that make those people dumb or just smart for avoiding what ammounts to the biggest time sink ever? Your memories of EQ by the way are just memories and VERY few people ever wish to repeat them. I don't know a single person who used to play EQ that would ever go back to that sort of gameplay. Not a one. I guess we're all stupid dummies now, right?
The fact you equate WORK with a game only proves just how "off" your thinking is and how out of touch you are with what a GAME is supposed to be about.
Your right, you are dummies now. WoW Raids are so much easier then EQ1 raids. Have you ever been on an EQ1 raid? How can you even say they are close to the same?
WoW raids can be tried over and over again. EQ1 raids, if you failed, that was it for the night. PERIOD. In WoW you wipe on a raid, it takes maybe 10 to 20 minutes to get back and ready to try again. EQ1 if you wipe its over, done. It takes way longer to get back up and ready to try again and on some raids it is impossiable to even try again. You can honestly tell me that WoW has anything as hard as breaking into Fear or how about clearing SSRA or even getting a chance to raid "CandyLand" (Vex Thal) WoW raids are fun but do not come close to the fun of EQ1 raids. Its all comes back to Risk vs Reward.
The whole point of an MMO is to get the player to play for as long as possiable. MMOs are all time sinks, how can you say other wise. EQ made the time in game fun, were WoW was only fun for so long then it got boring. I played EQ1 for over 5 years without taking a break, I played WoW for less then 2 years. That should tell you that EQ1 was way more fun then WoW for me. I loved how in EQ1 you knew way more people outside your guild. I loved how you could come across a random person in the world that would be willing to help you at the drop of a hat. You do not get that in the "next" gen games. The EQ1 Community was way better then any other community to date. (for the games that I have played).
I know many people that are dieing for another EQ1 type game with new graphics. Maybe its just the people I game with but I have a feeling that we are not alone. Quest are great but they are not something that should be handed out like candy.
Every game you play requires work and time. PERIOD. Games are made for fun but they take work and time to beat, always have and always will. Shit Super Mario Bros took work to beat the first time you played it. SO don't give me this bullshit about how out of touch I am with what a game is supposed to be about. I play games because I love problem solving. Games are nothing but giant puzzles that need to be solved and that is why I play games. I play MMOs because I enjoy solving puzzles/problems with a group of people but most of the new MMOs are so simple that it takes no brain power at all.
I am sick of MMOs holding your dam hand though the whole game, Why can't their be risk? Why do you feel you need to be given the greatest rewards without having to go though a lot of work to get it?
The answer is that todays gamers want everything now without any effort, NONE. WoW is a great game but it takes no effort to play, everything laid out for you, there are no risks. Death means nothing.
Sooner or Later
See your wrong, the only reason MMOs are more popular now is that the games are so dumbed down that any moron with a computer and internet can play. Gone are the days that it took smart gamers to beat raids or boss mobs. Gone are the days of socializing while hunting and killing. Gone are the days of helping others because you remember what it was like.
Remember hell levels in EQ1? I do, I leveled 2 charaters though the hell levels. A Warrior and a Necromancer.
Remember dieing in EQ and asking yourself, how the hell am I going to get that corpse? I do.
Remember finding those great group hunting spots in high level zones were everyone in the group had to be on their toes or you wiped? I do.
The problem is that most MMOs today require you to do endless amounts of quest for exp. I am so sick of doing quests that I cannot play any of the new MMOs for more then a month before I am bored out of my mind. (WAR is okay because I can level on PvP only which is group content) Grinding is slower then doing the quests and most of the quest are designed to be run solo.
Today most gamers what everything now now now. Back in the day it was all about working hard for what you got instead of getting everything you want with little work. Todays games cater to the new generation of "I WANT IT NOW AND FOR NOTHING" group of players.
I just want a game that brings back the whole Risk vs Reward system that EQ1 had. The bigger the risk the better the reward. No game has that today. No more risk for the players but they still get the rewards.
Go ahead and compare the FAQs and tactics required for some of the tougher raids in WOW with the tank and spankers of EQ. Just because there wern't guides back then, doesn't make them harder. You didn't need any more smarts to beat raids back in the 90s than you do now. You just needed 10 hrs instead of 2...and no life of course;) Slight exageration, but not too far off. 1 person of 20 or 40 can still wipe a raid in seconds in WOW. EQ was about time conmitment, knowing if you failed, you had to play another 2 hrs to recoup what you lost. But if you had unlimited time to play, what risk was there? If you couldn't risk that time because you have a family, kids and a life outside the game, you obviously didn't play them. DOes that make those people dumb or just smart for avoiding what ammounts to the biggest time sink ever? Your memories of EQ by the way are just memories and VERY few people ever wish to repeat them. I don't know a single person who used to play EQ that would ever go back to that sort of gameplay. Not a one. I guess we're all stupid dummies now, right?
The fact you equate WORK with a game only proves just how "off" your thinking is and how out of touch you are with what a GAME is supposed to be about.
Is there nothing you enjoy that requires you to work for it? To get better at a sport, you must work your muscles to become stronger and to endure more. You must learn strategies to play more efficiently. You must work with your team to become better at executing things together. To become a good musician, you must practice to become good. To get better at sex, you must work at it.
Most of the things worth having, you have to work for and I'd say most people enjoy working for it. This isn't in defense of what the other person said or of tedious gameplay, just food for thought so that you may never use the "games shouldn't require work" argument again.
P.S. - I can use WoW as an example too. To raid in WoW, you need skilled players that know their class. To become a skilled player, the player must work at it. To know your class, you must research and practice various things while leveling up. The act of leveling up is considered work by most, especially for those that don't like questing. Learning how to work together as a team, so that you don't wipe the raid soon after you start, requires work. The raid leader must put work into the game in order to be knowledable enough to even lead the raid. He must know all of the classes, what buffs they have, how the classes mix with each other, and strategies for overcoming the challenges ahead. He must also manage resources, such as players, time, and items. In other words, even WoW requires work, but work doesn't necessarily mean you're doing something unenjoyable.
I wonder if there aren't enough grouping options in games because there aren't enough people who really want grouping options?
In many games I play I see these types of posts. And then a plethora of people come out on the forums complaining they can't get groups. Yet I always wonder why they just don't group up together? If a particular game has so many people who want group play, maybe they should organize so they can better enjoy their time?
To that end, how many times have I see "looking for group for...." on the public channels only to see other people shouting the same thing. Yet they don't get together?
My guess is that a good many people are tired of pickup groups and tired of the attitudes of many gamers. Maybe even tired of "gamers".
They join kinships or clans or Guilds in order to find people who they enjoy grouping with. Otherwise they just make their own fun.
The people who want groups and more importantly, want pickup groups are vocal but not a majority
And lastly, most people seem to want to join an already formed group but don't want to make groups themselves.
When Lord of the Rings came out there were many quests that required groups. Many people ended up leaving (myself included) who were not inclined to spend their time looking for a group and dealing with some of the attitudes out there. Suddenly Turbine makes it so that there is more solo content and many (including myself) came back.
I think that a good many of the old school mmo players are a minority and that now that mmo's are a bit more mainstream we are getting many people who are not enamored of the whole group mentality and will not spend their time just shouting "looking for group" in order to play for 30 minutes and possibly have a bad time with a bad group.
Personally I would rather solo than have a chance of a bad group.
I also think that if players want to group they need to organize better and find others who are like minded.
It always surprises me when I am in a guild in a game and I see that same someone sign on and say "hey guys, anything going on tonight"? If there isn't they then log off.
No attempt at putting something together or even looking for other similar types of people.
If you like to group then make it happen and of course join a game that has grouping content. Perhaps even put up with slightly inferior rewards for the gameplay experience of grouping.
I do know that LOTRO has a lot of grouping opportunities for those who are looking for that type of thing.
Did you play team sports growing up? Or did you like team sports at all? Most people who like team sports do not want to be team captain. If given a choice of shooting hoops by themselves or playing 2 on 2, they'd choose 2 on 2. But just because they like team sports doesn't mean they'll go door to door in the neighborhood, asking kids if they want to play. Most people are uncomfortable approaching people they don't know and asking them to join them in an activity. Instead, they'd prefer to do something alone and wait for someone with that kind of confidence in themselves to form a team.
It's no different with online games. The games are full of people who prefer to follow, if they even want to group at all. Whoever starts a group is in charge of forming the group, ensuring there's no drama, knowing the fights, being a good strategist, and so on. It's a lot to ask from one person and most people don't want that. Because of the stress involved with being the group leader, sometimes even the group leaders want a day off, and would prefer to join a group than to start one.
Maybe you're one of those leaders, which would explain why you don't see it any other way. But everyone has the ability to look at things from another's point of view. So look at it from a timid person's point of view, who does so happen to love to group, but doesn't have the self confidence to ask others to follow him.
I am fortunate enough to have seen boths sides of that, so I know what it's like. I started off being the guy who didn't have enough confidence in himself. Now I lead college learning teams, with adults twice my age following my lead, because they like the way I do things, and warbands on occasion in WAR, when there isn't a leader worth following. Part of being a leader is having the knowledge to do the job and understanding the people who follow you. You can't expect some random person on the internet to be a born again leader or a natural leader. Some people have it, most don't.
You know that actually is a very good point.
Still, if you like grouping and want to play in a social game you (the royal you) are just going to have to make an effort. I can easily understand why someone would not want to lead a group but just because you start one doesn't mean you have to lead it:
"Putting together a group for 'the Castle of 1000 deaths', any interested please pm me. If anyone is interested and would like to teach the instance, please pm me as well"
or
"putting together a group for 'Castle of 1006 deaths', anyone welcome. People with experience a plus but if not then we will just find our own way ; )"
Otherwise, what I'm seeing, if your point is to be taken, is that we have many people who come to forums and complain about not grouping but can't bring themselves to form groups in the game. Or, many people who come to forums for groups who can be leaders but are not being proactive in making it happen as there are (or so people say) many people looking for groups yet these forum posters can't seem to find them?
I understand the idea of not wanting to lead it and even to a certain level of shyness. As long as we are sharing stories "I" used to be so painfully shy I couldn't raise my hand in class. Today I can walk out on a stage with 1,000 plus people and improvise a scene without even batting an eye. I get it. But it still doesn't explain why we keep seeing so many people posting these "We need more games with grouping" and yet every game I've played (except for Lineage 2) has people screaming for groups.
Perhaps if some of these players would lose the idea that you need the "perfect" group and can find your way through on your own, you'd see more grouping. And, as I've stated, if the people who want/need groups and who come to forums to demand them were only a bit more proactive in their communities then perhaps they would have more groups.
I find it highly doubtful that so many of the pro-group people in this thread are shrinking violets in the games they play when they state their claims so boldly.
If you want groups then make it happen.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I wonder if there aren't enough grouping options in games because there aren't enough people who really want grouping options?
In many games I play I see these types of posts. And then a plethora of people come out on the forums complaining they can't get groups. Yet I always wonder why they just don't group up together? If a particular game has so many people who want group play, maybe they should organize so they can better enjoy their time?
To that end, how many times have I see "looking for group for...." on the public channels only to see other people shouting the same thing. Yet they don't get together?
My guess is that a good many people are tired of pickup groups and tired of the attitudes of many gamers. Maybe even tired of "gamers".
They join kinships or clans or Guilds in order to find people who they enjoy grouping with. Otherwise they just make their own fun.
The people who want groups and more importantly, want pickup groups are vocal but not a majority
And lastly, most people seem to want to join an already formed group but don't want to make groups themselves.
When Lord of the Rings came out there were many quests that required groups. Many people ended up leaving (myself included) who were not inclined to spend their time looking for a group and dealing with some of the attitudes out there. Suddenly Turbine makes it so that there is more solo content and many (including myself) came back.
I think that a good many of the old school mmo players are a minority and that now that mmo's are a bit more mainstream we are getting many people who are not enamored of the whole group mentality and will not spend their time just shouting "looking for group" in order to play for 30 minutes and possibly have a bad time with a bad group.
Personally I would rather solo than have a chance of a bad group.
I also think that if players want to group they need to organize better and find others who are like minded.
It always surprises me when I am in a guild in a game and I see that same someone sign on and say "hey guys, anything going on tonight"? If there isn't they then log off.
No attempt at putting something together or even looking for other similar types of people.
If you like to group then make it happen and of course join a game that has grouping content. Perhaps even put up with slightly inferior rewards for the gameplay experience of grouping.
I do know that LOTRO has a lot of grouping opportunities for those who are looking for that type of thing.
Did you play team sports growing up? Or did you like team sports at all? Most people who like team sports do not want to be team captain. If given a choice of shooting hoops by themselves or playing 2 on 2, they'd choose 2 on 2. But just because they like team sports doesn't mean they'll go door to door in the neighborhood, asking kids if they want to play. Most people are uncomfortable approaching people they don't know and asking them to join them in an activity. Instead, they'd prefer to do something alone and wait for someone with that kind of confidence in themselves to form a team.
It's no different with online games. The games are full of people who prefer to follow, if they even want to group at all. Whoever starts a group is in charge of forming the group, ensuring there's no drama, knowing the fights, being a good strategist, and so on. It's a lot to ask from one person and most people don't want that. Because of the stress involved with being the group leader, sometimes even the group leaders want a day off, and would prefer to join a group than to start one.
Maybe you're one of those leaders, which would explain why you don't see it any other way. But everyone has the ability to look at things from another's point of view. So look at it from a timid person's point of view, who does so happen to love to group, but doesn't have the self confidence to ask others to follow him.
I am fortunate enough to have seen boths sides of that, so I know what it's like. I started off being the guy who didn't have enough confidence in himself. Now I lead college learning teams, with adults twice my age following my lead, because they like the way I do things, and warbands on occasion in WAR, when there isn't a leader worth following. Part of being a leader is having the knowledge to do the job and understanding the people who follow you. You can't expect some random person on the internet to be a born again leader or a natural leader. Some people have it, most don't.
You know that actually is a very good point.
Still, if you like grouping and want to play in a social game you (the royal you) are just going to have to make an effort. I can easily understand why someone would not want to lead a group but just because you start one doesn't mean you have to lead it:
"Putting together a group for 'the Castle of 1000 deaths', any interested please pm me. If anyone is interested and would like to teach the instance, please pm me as well"
or
"putting together a group for 'Castle of 1006 deaths', anyone welcome. People with experience a plus but if not then we will just find our own way ; )"
Otherwise, what I'm seeing, if your point is to be taken, is that we have many people who come to forums and complain about not grouping but can't bring themselves to form groups in the game. Or, many people who come to forums for groups who can be leaders but are not being proactive in making it happen as there are (or so people say) many people looking for groups yet these forum posters can't seem to find them?
I understand the idea of not wanting to lead it and even to a certain level of shyness. As long as we are sharing stories "I" used to be so painfully shy I couldn't raise my hand in class. Today I can walk out on a stage with 1,000 plus people and improvise a scene without even batting an eye. I get it. But it still doesn't explain why we keep seeing so many people posting these "We need more games with grouping" and yet every game I've played (except for Lineage 2) has people screaming for groups.
Perhaps if some of these players would lose the idea that you need the "perfect" group and can find your way through on your own, you'd see more grouping. And, as I've stated, if the people who want/need groups and who come to forums to demand them were only a bit more proactive in their communities then perhaps they would have more groups.
I find it highly doubtful that so many of the pro-group people in this thread are shrinking violets in the games they play when they state their claims so boldly.
If you want groups then make it happen.
My problem is that grouping in most of the newer games has no benefits. None. The quests are setup for solo play and the group quests are few and far between until you hit the end game, then the group quests are raids. What I want is a game like EQ1 with new lore and a new world. EQ1 people could solo if they wanted to solo but groups were better exp and had alot more content.
The problem for me is not being able to find a group but finding things for the group to do that I can not do solo.
Sooner or Later
See your wrong, the only reason MMOs are more popular now is that the games are so dumbed down that any moron with a computer and internet can play. Gone are the days that it took smart gamers to beat raids or boss mobs. Gone are the days of socializing while hunting and killing. Gone are the days of helping others because you remember what it was like.
Remember hell levels in EQ1? I do, I leveled 2 charaters though the hell levels. A Warrior and a Necromancer.
Remember dieing in EQ and asking yourself, how the hell am I going to get that corpse? I do.
Remember finding those great group hunting spots in high level zones were everyone in the group had to be on their toes or you wiped? I do.
The problem is that most MMOs today require you to do endless amounts of quest for exp. I am so sick of doing quests that I cannot play any of the new MMOs for more then a month before I am bored out of my mind. (WAR is okay because I can level on PvP only which is group content) Grinding is slower then doing the quests and most of the quest are designed to be run solo.
Today most gamers what everything now now now. Back in the day it was all about working hard for what you got instead of getting everything you want with little work. Todays games cater to the new generation of "I WANT IT NOW AND FOR NOTHING" group of players.
I just want a game that brings back the whole Risk vs Reward system that EQ1 had. The bigger the risk the better the reward. No game has that today. No more risk for the players but they still get the rewards.
Go ahead and compare the FAQs and tactics required for some of the tougher raids in WOW with the tank and spankers of EQ. Just because there wern't guides back then, doesn't make them harder. You didn't need any more smarts to beat raids back in the 90s than you do now. You just needed 10 hrs instead of 2...and no life of course;) Slight exageration, but not too far off. 1 person of 20 or 40 can still wipe a raid in seconds in WOW. EQ was about time conmitment, knowing if you failed, you had to play another 2 hrs to recoup what you lost. But if you had unlimited time to play, what risk was there? If you couldn't risk that time because you have a family, kids and a life outside the game, you obviously didn't play them. DOes that make those people dumb or just smart for avoiding what ammounts to the biggest time sink ever? Your memories of EQ by the way are just memories and VERY few people ever wish to repeat them. I don't know a single person who used to play EQ that would ever go back to that sort of gameplay. Not a one. I guess we're all stupid dummies now, right?
The fact you equate WORK with a game only proves just how "off" your thinking is and how out of touch you are with what a GAME is supposed to be about.
Is there nothing you enjoy that requires you to work for it? To get better at a sport, you must work your muscles to become stronger and to endure more. You must learn strategies to play more efficiently. You must work with your team to become better at executing things together. To become a good musician, you must practice to become good. To get better at sex, you must work at it.
Most of the things worth having, you have to work for and I'd say most people enjoy working for it. This isn't in defense of what the other person said or of tedious gameplay, just food for thought so that you may never use the "games shouldn't require work" argument again.
P.S. - I can use WoW as an example too. To raid in WoW, you need skilled players that know their class. To become a skilled player, the player must work at it. To know your class, you must research and practice various things while leveling up. The act of leveling up is considered work by most, especially for those that don't like questing. Learning how to work together as a team, so that you don't wipe the raid soon after you start, requires work. The raid leader must put work into the game in order to be knowledable enough to even lead the raid. He must know all of the classes, what buffs they have, how the classes mix with each other, and strategies for overcoming the challenges ahead. He must also manage resources, such as players, time, and items. In other words, even WoW requires work, but work doesn't necessarily mean you're doing something unenjoyable.
Theres a fine line between effort and work in a game though and EQ felt like work. It was tedious. It might've seemed enjoyable because it was new. But its not new anymore. No one wants to wait around with 80 other people for a respawn timer. Thats not difficult Its a time sink. Anything worth earning requires effort and the coolest things in newer MMOs still require effort. Theyr'e not handed to you. You're just not kicked in the nuts as much;)
And to the one above, what the heck is wrong with having a few shots a night to try and raid a dungeon? Are you that deluded that you think its a GOOD THING that you only get one shot a night? A raid in EQ isn't harder just because you have less chances at it, due respawn timers, lines, competition ect..that doesn't make the actual RAID hard. It AGAIN comes back to time. You didn't need any more expertise to beat a raid in EQ over one in WOW. You needed TIME. Not more time to learn it. You just thought it took more time, because it was spread out more and you didn't have any FAQs to cheat. It was just more time waiting around. Theres a difference. EQ raids were NOT in any way harder. They were actually simpler in design. WOW's raids are actually far more complex due to the scripting and deeper classes. EQs were hard due to the travel, waiting and downtime. WOW's are hard but fun. EQ's were hard but tedius. Understand the difference?
Well if you look at how MMOs encourage/force grouping it is easy to see why people prefer to spend their time solo. The way MMOs play out, being heavily automated means that to make something doable for a single player that it by defacto is too easy for a group, the reason is because the encounter has to be statistically probable for the player to beat it, since nearly everything in MMOs are centered around stats. So if a player has a 90% chance to beat a mob then 4 people are definately going to beat it and with no issue.
To create group content the mobs merely become stronger making a single player have a very poor chance if not impossible time of beating it by himself, to supliment other players are needed, but not just more players but specific types, like a healer and a tank and DPS characters, the reason is all about statistics, you need damage to kill it in a timely manner but also a character to holds it's attention so the others will not get hurt, because being hurt is a given since you can't do anything to defend yourself beyond chance, and since people will be hurt a person to heal is needed.
What this means is that group content is next to impossible to do for the single player and that a rather rigid formula of character types are required to complete it, even for skillbased games. You do not group to make things easier, you group because if you want to do the content you have to.
But look at games where people want to group even when they do not have to, like FPS games, you can do the the campaign by yourself but having another person makes it easier, especially at higher difficulties. You are not barred from doing all the content by yourself but you will probably be able to do it faster with other people. The point is grouping is benificial and not forced on you, many MMOs cross their arms and refuse to let single players experience all the content and you feel forced into grouping to progress. This is why games like WoW are doing well, you don't have to group to level, there is forced grouping at the end if you want good gear but most the game doesn't force you too.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
Didn't D&D start out as a predominantly group focused MMO? How long did that last before we saw they were making solo content?
Grouping with friends is a blast. Forced grouping with strangers not so much.
An old but interesting debate.
Personally, I prefer to solo and only group when absolutely necessary. The main reason being, the majority of the folk I meet in online games are complete asswipes.
The day I'm forced to group consistently is the day I look for something else.
Personal perspective: Forced grouping ruins games.
If I want to group, then I'll group. I don't want to be put in a position where I have to group with people whose company I may not enjoy, purely on the basis that there is no alternative than spending hours AFK or LFG.
I play games like I read books or listen to music; I do it when I want to do it; I consider it very very bizarre that people are willing/able to log onto a game and sit around for hours waiting for the fun to begin. Just doesn't make sense to me.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
In FF11, grouping is essential to progress in the game.
I personally prefer games where you can solo if you want and you can group if you want. Why force the gaming community to pick a side when you can have both.
Making forming a group horrendously difficult is a seperate, but important issue. Tank/Healer/DPS games make forming groups painful. That sort of thing has to stop. That said, there shouldn't be forced grouping because you can run into massive jerks and sometimes it is best just to avoid that. When you do form a group however, it should be easy to do, you should still easily be able to find challenges (e.g. a two or three person group shouldn't trivialize content and also be impossible to do real group content with), and it should reward you for making a group.
See your wrong, the only reason MMOs are more popular now is that the games are so dumbed down that any moron with a computer and internet can play. Gone are the days that it took smart gamers to beat raids or boss mobs. Gone are the days of socializing while hunting and killing. Gone are the days of helping others because you remember what it was like.
Remember hell levels in EQ1? I do, I leveled 2 charaters though the hell levels. A Warrior and a Necromancer.
Remember dieing in EQ and asking yourself, how the hell am I going to get that corpse? I do.
Remember finding those great group hunting spots in high level zones were everyone in the group had to be on their toes or you wiped? I do.
The problem is that most MMOs today require you to do endless amounts of quest for exp. I am so sick of doing quests that I cannot play any of the new MMOs for more then a month before I am bored out of my mind. (WAR is okay because I can level on PvP only which is group content) Grinding is slower then doing the quests and most of the quest are designed to be run solo.
Today most gamers what everything now now now. Back in the day it was all about working hard for what you got instead of getting everything you want with little work. Todays games cater to the new generation of "I WANT IT NOW AND FOR NOTHING" group of players.
I just want a game that brings back the whole Risk vs Reward system that EQ1 had. The bigger the risk the better the reward. No game has that today. No more risk for the players but they still get the rewards.
Go ahead and compare the FAQs and tactics required for some of the tougher raids in WOW with the tank and spankers of EQ. Just because there wern't guides back then, doesn't make them harder. You didn't need any more smarts to beat raids back in the 90s than you do now. You just needed 10 hrs instead of 2...and no life of course;) Slight exageration, but not too far off. 1 person of 20 or 40 can still wipe a raid in seconds in WOW. EQ was about time conmitment, knowing if you failed, you had to play another 2 hrs to recoup what you lost. But if you had unlimited time to play, what risk was there? If you couldn't risk that time because you have a family, kids and a life outside the game, you obviously didn't play them. DOes that make those people dumb or just smart for avoiding what ammounts to the biggest time sink ever? Your memories of EQ by the way are just memories and VERY few people ever wish to repeat them. I don't know a single person who used to play EQ that would ever go back to that sort of gameplay. Not a one. I guess we're all stupid dummies now, right?
The fact you equate WORK with a game only proves just how "off" your thinking is and how out of touch you are with what a GAME is supposed to be about.
Is there nothing you enjoy that requires you to work for it? To get better at a sport, you must work your muscles to become stronger and to endure more. You must learn strategies to play more efficiently. You must work with your team to become better at executing things together. To become a good musician, you must practice to become good. To get better at sex, you must work at it.
Most of the things worth having, you have to work for and I'd say most people enjoy working for it. This isn't in defense of what the other person said or of tedious gameplay, just food for thought so that you may never use the "games shouldn't require work" argument again.
P.S. - I can use WoW as an example too. To raid in WoW, you need skilled players that know their class. To become a skilled player, the player must work at it. To know your class, you must research and practice various things while leveling up. The act of leveling up is considered work by most, especially for those that don't like questing. Learning how to work together as a team, so that you don't wipe the raid soon after you start, requires work. The raid leader must put work into the game in order to be knowledable enough to even lead the raid. He must know all of the classes, what buffs they have, how the classes mix with each other, and strategies for overcoming the challenges ahead. He must also manage resources, such as players, time, and items. In other words, even WoW requires work, but work doesn't necessarily mean you're doing something unenjoyable.
Theres a fine line between effort and work in a game though and EQ felt like work. It was tedious. It might've seemed enjoyable because it was new. But its not new anymore. No one wants to wait around with 80 other people for a respawn timer. Thats not difficult Its a time sink. Anything worth earning requires effort and the coolest things in newer MMOs still require effort. Theyr'e not handed to you. You're just not kicked in the nuts as much;)
And to the one above, what the heck is wrong with having a few shots a night to try and raid a dungeon? Are you that deluded that you think its a GOOD THING that you only get one shot a night? A raid in EQ isn't harder just because you have less chances at it, due respawn timers, lines, competition ect..that doesn't make the actual RAID hard. It AGAIN comes back to time. You didn't need any more expertise to beat a raid in EQ over one in WOW. You needed TIME. Not more time to learn it. You just thought it took more time, because it was spread out more and you didn't have any FAQs to cheat. It was just more time waiting around. Theres a difference. EQ raids were NOT in any way harder. They were actually simpler in design. WOW's raids are actually far more complex due to the scripting and deeper classes. EQs were hard due to the travel, waiting and downtime. WOW's are hard but fun. EQ's were hard but tedius. Understand the difference?
No I do not understand because WoW raids not not hard at all. Nothing in WoW is hard, nothing. WoW is on easy mode. There is nothing wrong with that but do not pretend that WoW is hard. EQ1 raids were hard due to alot of factors but mostly because it took everyone on the raid doing everything correct to win. WoW has room for error, EQ1 did not.
Deeper classes in WoW? This alone makes me think you never played EQ1 a day in your life, the classes in EQ1 had alot more depth then then ones in WoW. You need alot more brain power to figure out raids in EQ then you did in WoW. Try breaking into fear with the average WoW player and tell me that WoW is harder.
Yes it is a good thing you get one shot a night at a raid event because that makes the players in the raid make sure they are ready and willing to work hard to get this raid done or they will have to do this again tomorrow after a long corpse run tonight. It made the players smarter, it forced players to learn more about there class, it made players better.
When you can try something without any risk at all, over and over again it is easy to beat any event. It takes no effort.
Effort and work go hand in hand. EQ1 was only work if you made it work, I enjoyed my time in EQ1 and when my guild decided to try out WoW I moved with them because I loved my guild, after a year in WoW most of the guild had left and gone on to other games or back to EQ1.
Honestly its a waste of time trying to talk to you because you think WoW is a hard game which it is not... WoW is on easy mode. They hand everything to you on a golden plater. No risk, no punishment for failure, nothing but easy rewards for little effort.
Sooner or Later
Finding a balance between solo content and group content is difficult to do, and a hard balance to maintain throughout the life of a MMO. Example Eve Online, does this have enough solo content for someone, and are they forced to group enough as well? LOTRO I think is one of the best for this because you can solo the game but in order to participate in the books you have to group up. Older games seemed to have this down, EQ if you didn't want to solo you didn't have to but you could if you wanted to. Asheron's Call you could solo the entire game but you had to group to take part in very large events like the olthoi queen quest, or Lady Aerifall quest.
There will never be the perfect balance for everyone because each of us has different expectations of how to play a game. The mechanics in each game change why we want to group...etc. So is the problem with todays MMORPGS that there is to much soloing? I don't think so, I think the problem with todays MMORPGS is there is no enjoying the journey, instead it is about getting to max level as quick as possible then saying you finished the game. MMORPGS are supposed to be a world that changes the expands, that keeps you following a story just like the Paper and Pencil RPG's of old. At least that is how I see it.
This is directed at Tdogskal: And this is not an attack on you btw....The reason why WoW may seem like its so easy is because of the internet....Hell most videogames in general are easier now because of the internet. You can find the latest game guides, cheats, faqs, and whatever else before the damn game is even released because of the net....Public Test Realms are guilty of this as well, but its understandable why the release them. If you honestly believe that EQ1 would be just as diffucult if it had all of the available resources that are in force today then you are gravely mistaken.... What I find most diffucult to understand is that for whatever reason people think that WoW is just a cake walk. It has definitely gotten easier in terms of leveling and gaining xp. WoW never had a death penalty but thats another beast entirely....My point is if that you take away the resources from WoW or like I said most video games many of them would make some people cry. The internet has made all games much more easier to defeat, raid, or whatever. And pre-BC WoW raids were fucking hard....How would you know how to kill any of those bosses without a guide or some strat? (Hakkar, Twin Emps.Rag, Nef, hell even some of the bosses before them?) You would wipe an ungodly amount of times trying to figure them out. And anyone who says that their guild figured it out without them is either lying or were possibly on the PTR or just some super high end guild that Blizz sleeps next too :P....