The sense of achievement comes from beating the challenge. I do not really see why you have to tie in gambling into it. How much you bet on the outcome does not make the challenge harder or easier.
We have fundamentally different ideas on RvR I think. I don't see a challenge if there's no penalty for failure. It's like trying to hit a bullseye with unlimited darts, doesn't matter how bad you are, if you throw enough darts you'll hit it in the end.
You have a very goal oriented idea of a challenge. I prefer challenges that are about personal growth. As such the fact that you hit the bullseye with the dart is irrelevant since you did not actually learn to throw darts accurately. You just got really lucky which is not the same as beating the challenge. It's when you have learned to come back over and over and hit the bullseye that you have really beaten the challenge since there is nothing more you can learn from it.
Since excessive penalties and downtimes between attempting an encounter do not actually teach you anything new about the encounter I do not see them as part of the challenge of the encounter.
It does teach you something about the encounter or it should teach you something about the encounter. When you wipe on a Raid you do not learn from your mistakes? If there is penalties and downtime between encounters then you will learn quicker because you will want to avoid the downtimes.
Its like playing sports, the more you play the better you get but there are penalties and downtime in between encounters (games). I played Travel hockey, when we lost a game, the next 2 practice sessions were without sticks and pucks. Nothing but skating drills, let me tell you that we did not lose very often and we learned quickly what we had to do to win hockey games because we did not want to deal with the penalties during the downtime between games.
That is how it should work in MMOs as well, the penalties during the downtime should be so great that it forces the players to learn quickly what not to do in order to avoid those penalties. EQ1 is a great example, players learned quickly no to do certain things during certain raids because of those penalties and downtime.
Planes of Power had a raid event that while clearing to the boss there was room that anytime anyone died including pets, 3 to 5 skeletons would spawn in that room. The first time though the event, we did not know this, we filled that room with skeletons because someone let a pet die and then it got out of control quickly, the point is the very next time we tried that event we had no pets up and everyone was ready for the skeletons and we had a plan for off tanking them as they popped. The point is because of the penalties for failing that first time we learned quickly what not to do and we won the event.
As for the instanced dungeons, my friend did take me through one of those. I think we were a level or two higher than you're supposed to be for it but there were only two of us when it was intended for five people (he said) and the things did give us exp. so we couldn't have been too far above the intended level. But there again the whole thing seemed so stupidly easy. We did die when we got to the Boss room but...so what? We ran back, re-entered the dungeon, ran through the empty dungeon back to the boss, and my friend suggested that we concentrate on killing the little extra guys before fighting the boss. See, it really was more than we could handle with just the two of us but because there is no death penalty and the dungeon doesn't respawn immediately when you die all we had to do was keep making suicide runs back in there, killing off the extras in the boss room one at a time, die and run back to kill another, untill the boss was alone and we could take him down. I mean WTF? Even when we were taking on something we shouldn't have been able to beat there is no way to lose because with no death penalty it's like playing in God mode. Just keep throwing yourself at it untill you wear it down. If you die 15 times before you beat it...no problem...you can't lose anything you can only gain things.
I am calling BS on this one. There is no dungeon instance in WoW where two people of the level apprioprate for the instance can clear it so easily.
You can call BS all you want but that's what happened. I'd tell you the name of the instance if I remembered it but I'm not even sure if my friend told me the name of it at the time. He just led me to it and we did it and, honestly, I was already in the "whatever man, it's all a bunch of crap" mindset regarding WoW so I really didn't give a damn about the names of anything or the 'lore' or any of that crap. He probably mentioned what the place was called and I immediately forgot it. I'd ask him this weekend what the place was but the fact that I quit WoW is a bit of a sore spot between us so I don't like to bring it up.
What I can tell you is that it was a dungeon, it was definately an instance, we got experience from the kills, and my friend said it was intended for five people.
And anyway, how could anyone not clear any dungeon in WoW if they are least capable of killing a few things each time in before they die. All they have to do is like we did with the boss room in that place. Just keep suiciding into it untill you beat it. With no penalty for dying what's to stop you from doing that?
The sense of achievement comes from beating the challenge. I do not really see why you have to tie in gambling into it. How much you bet on the outcome does not make the challenge harder or easier.
We have fundamentally different ideas on RvR I think. I don't see a challenge if there's no penalty for failure. It's like trying to hit a bullseye with unlimited darts, doesn't matter how bad you are, if you throw enough darts you'll hit it in the end.
You have a very goal oriented idea of a challenge. I prefer challenges that are about personal growth. As such the fact that you hit the bullseye with the dart is irrelevant since you did not actually learn to throw darts accurately. You just got really lucky which is not the same as beating the challenge.
No. You would be lucky eventually with your approach of limitless attempts. I would be sure I was prepared and able to throw darts to a reasonable standard when I arrived, because I don't want to pay the penalty even once if I can help it.
most people dont want an EQ1 type game anymore or they would play...well....EQ1. It still has alot of people playing it. Or you can play Vanguard. The fact is people are just looking for the next big thing. Alot of fond memories people have of EQ1 are because it was their first 3D mmo. They had a great time, all their friends played it. They feel the great feelings from long ago. Things always look better in the rear-view mirror.
I am so sick of hearing that I only remember the good things or that I look at EQ1 though rose tinted glasses or that I don't remember the real EQ1.
That is all bull shit. I remember my days in EQ1 well, I remember all the bad times and all the good. I remember losing corpse due to rot because I could not get to my corpse after a PuG Fear raid (last time I did a PUG Fear raid). Trust me, I know EQ1 was not a perfect game but compared to the MMOs that I have played in the last few years it was the best. I remember dieing to trains and being pissed off because some asshole just killed me. I remember the hell levels, taking weeks to gain a SINGLE LEVEL. (I leveled a Warrior and a Necromancer though hell levels before they were removed). I remember
I personally had a rule while playing EQ1, If I died 3 times in a play session, I was done for the day. WHY? because 3 deaths ment I lost alot of exp because you felt death, it made you a better player because you did everything in your power not to die. I have seen, done and hear of people dieing to travel in WoW. That is a huge FLAW. WoW is like playing an MMORPG on easy mode, nothing you say will change my mind on that fact. I have played WoW, I do know what I am talking about.
MMORPGS = TIMESINKS - EVERY MMO IS A TIMESINK. That is the point of a MMORPG.
I do not play EQ1 now because I will not the support team around me like I did the first time, both guilds I was in during my 5 years in EQ1 have moved on. I still think about playing EQ1 from time to time but I am so far behind the expansions at this point I rather start fresh on a new game with the same concepts that EQ1 had.
I tried Vanguard during beta and then a few months ago, it just does not have that felling. It is missing the community.
You sound like some people I know. People who get upset that other players have an easier time than they did back in the day. Or, to put it another way, you sound like an old man complaining how the current generation is ruining the country. My apologies if I don't take diatribes like that seriously. It's too bad you had to walk 10 miles through snow every day to get to school. We have buses now. Get used to it.
I am not saying MMOs today are perfect, in fact there are a number of ways they could get better. That said, they are better than what came before. It should not be painful to get a group going (but EQ had that too, I'd note), for instance. There should be rewards for doing well with a group. Challenges should exist, but they should be based on capricious punishment if you fail (like a death penalty). There are better ways to design a risk/reward system than that (I've made a few posts about other ways to go about it, but they are quickly swallowed by blather). Let's talk about that instead of ranting against current MMOs.
most people dont want an EQ1 type game anymore or they would play...well....EQ1. It still has alot of people playing it. Or you can play Vanguard. The fact is people are just looking for the next big thing. Alot of fond memories people have of EQ1 are because it was their first 3D mmo. They had a great time, all their friends played it. They feel the great feelings from long ago. Things always look better in the rear-view mirror.
I am so sick of hearing that I only remember the good things or that I look at EQ1 though rose tinted glasses or that I don't remember the real EQ1.
That is all bull shit. I remember my days in EQ1 well, I remember all the bad times and all the good. I remember losing corpse due to rot because I could not get to my corpse after a PuG Fear raid (last time I did a PUG Fear raid). Trust me, I know EQ1 was not a perfect game but compared to the MMOs that I have played in the last few years it was the best. I remember dieing to trains and being pissed off because some asshole just killed me. I remember the hell levels, taking weeks to gain a SINGLE LEVEL. (I leveled a Warrior and a Necromancer though hell levels before they were removed). I remember
I personally had a rule while playing EQ1, If I died 3 times in a play session, I was done for the day. WHY? because 3 deaths ment I lost alot of exp because you felt death, it made you a better player because you did everything in your power not to die. I have seen, done and hear of people dieing to travel in WoW. That is a huge FLAW. WoW is like playing an MMORPG on easy mode, nothing you say will change my mind on that fact. I have played WoW, I do know what I am talking about.
MMORPGS = TIMESINKS - EVERY MMO IS A TIMESINK. That is the point of a MMORPG.
I do not play EQ1 now because I will not the support team around me like I did the first time, both guilds I was in during my 5 years in EQ1 have moved on. I still think about playing EQ1 from time to time but I am so far behind the expansions at this point I rather start fresh on a new game with the same concepts that EQ1 had.
I tried Vanguard during beta and then a few months ago, it just does not have that felling. It is missing the community.
You sound like some people I know. People who get upset that other players have an easier time than they did back in the day. Or, to put it another way, you sound like an old man complaining how the current generation is ruining the country. My apologies if I don't take diatribes like that seriously. It's too bad you had to walk 10 miles through snow every day to get to school. We have buses now. Get used to it.
I am not saying MMOs today are perfect, in fact there are a number of ways they could get better. That said, they are better than what came before. It should not be painful to get a group going (but EQ had that too, I'd note), for instance. There should be rewards for doing well with a group. Challenges should exist, but they should be based on capricious punishment if you fail (like a death penalty). There are better ways to design a risk/reward system than that (I've made a few posts about other ways to go about it, but they are quickly swallowed by blather). Let's talk about that instead of ranting against current MMOs.
See I do not care what other people had to go though or not go though. I just want a game that I can enjoy for another long period of time like I did in EQ1 (5+ years). I do not care that others have it easier in these new MMOs.
I have a problem with being forced to do a million pointless quests, quest get boring if they are not fun which I have not had any fun quest since EQ1. I want to be able to log in, grab some friends and go hunting/exping and exploring and not be gimped for doing so. WAR has Warbands for the PvP which is why I still sub to that game, I group 90% of my time in that game. I only do PvP becasue the PvE is boring and the same old same old.
VG have the layout but not the gameplay when it comes to dungeons, vanguard take the dungeon crawling approach like most of the MMO's today but without instancing ( which is good ), i remember talking in VG beta about the needs of implement different kinds of dungeons/zones for different types of gameplay, so im not talking about "dungeon crawling" which VG have, is more ( if you wanna call it in that way ) "dungeon camping".
So dungeons are like hubs where you meet people, join up and get fun, every season on that dungeon is different beacause the people that is playng in that dungeon is different, today dungeons are just zones where you go with you premade, do it for an hour and never come back, different gameplay with same layout.
I know is hard to understand if someone havent try both and by no means im saying that one way is better than other, is just that i enjoy much more the old EQ concept.
So to recap, i joined VG in beta1 and i played till 3 months before release ( max. level nothing to do ) and VG offers nothing like most people are looking for in terms of group and dungeon gameplay, imo of course.
But I do understand, I am an old EQ1 vet. Vanguards dungeons are the closest thing to eq1 dungeons than anything else. (helps it was made by BM who made eq1) I also was in Vanguards beta. The game is 2 years old so you are not familiar with over half of the dungeons in the game since you only played beta. Try it again.
Sorry, it was a typo, i mean played till 3 months after release, we ( premade group ) did a ton of dungeons and we enjoyed that, but the gameplay from VG dungeons to EQ dungeons is completely different, my advice is if you have a full party of friends to play with go on and you will enjoy the VG content, otherwise you hardly will.
Originally posted by TdogSkal I am sick and tired of doing meanless quests. Getting a group and grinding in a spot is just more fun for me. That's fine, and of course you have every right to prefer one style of XP-gain over another .. but that's most definately a minority view. Besides, there's nothing to stop you grinding mobs to max level rather than questing if that's your choice. Some quests can be very entertaining too.
Look you can use any example you want but WoW is still a very easy game, even the raids are easy, granted some of the raids might be harder with the newer content. I do not know, I quit before the first expansion but nothing will beat some of the raids in EQ1. Breaking into Fear, Plane of Fire trails, Plane of Time, Nox/Vox. You started out well with this sentence but then contradicted yourself; if you freely admit that you don't know how difficult the current raids are in WoW, then you can't be sure that they aren't more difficult than the EQ raids you mentioned. I didn't play end-game EQ1 so I'll defer to your judgement that some of the raids were very difficult; but I'm experienced in pre-TBC, TBC and WotLK raiding in WoW and maintain that (some of) the raiding content is also very difficult. Even quests in EQ1 were fun... Do you remember the trying to keep the Army of Frost giants out of the dwarven Ice city? I don't, I never experienced that. I can cite examples from WoW of quests that I've enjoyed though; some of the new quests contain long semi-instanced quest-chains with evolving landscapes and there's one particularly memorable quest where you get to accompany Thrall and a group of orcish warriors in storming and liberating the Undercity from an occupying scourge army. Definately fun stuff. I would love to find another game like EQ1, I will not be going back to EQ1 because I will not have my friends from the first time around but EQ1 will always be my favorite MMO. You can sit there and tell me all day long that WoW is hard but I will never accept that after playing WoW and leveling 3 charaters to max and doing all the raid content during my time in WoW. Sorry, but since you're judging the game based on experiences of vanilla WoW and ignoring all the advances that have been made in the past few years, I can't really consider your opinion to be creditable.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
My guess is, if you was horde it was wailing caverns and if you was alliance it probably was VC. Either one isnt that hard to do if you run back and keep killing the extra mobs. still, they are like the beginner dungeons and doesnt really reflect on how hard the other dungeons get.
IMHO MMO's shouldnt make it where you have to be in a group to play it, they need to make more of the game where you interact with others .. such as BG's etc .. Things that any body could do when ever they get on, not HAVE to look for groups in order to play . Too many people get left behind because they have to find a group in order to finish a quest line etc ..
My personal feeling is, leveling up characters can be done solo, or in groups but should be able to be the individual's choice, but there should be game play besides the normal level up quest that let people play together and have fun, outside of just leveling; and just having instanced RAIDS isnt what i mean .. they always take a certain amount of people and certain class's to do them, im talking about game play that u can get into when ever your able to get into the game. Jump in, play with others and not worry about finding groups and waiting for people.
MMO's need to have zones with ideas that make it where people can play together to achieve goals etc .. RVR is sort of along this line of thinking. But that sort of restricts it to PVP oriented content and i think there could be ways to do it where non pvpers can have fun doing stuff together also.
Having non static cities, and gear that needs to be replaced would help, stuff that last forever and never changes gets in the way of MMO group fun i think.
I wish there was an mmorpg with the main focus was grouping and exploring. People like to solo and thats fine there should be classes designed for people who like to solo, i think EQ had the best idea with this with the necromancer/Beastmaster. But I find myself lately in every mmorpg getting very bored because I am soloing all the time and when its time to group its either at the very end of the game just raiding the same end content for loot. What ever happened to when mmorpgs were about grouping with others and exploring?
I agree. If I want to solo, I can play a game offline. The only reason I play MMORPGs is to group, even with PUGs, so if the grouping is no good, IMO the game is no good if it's an MMORPG.
If I want to follow canned stories and quest lines, I'll play something like Fallout 3. If I'm online, I"m not reading any quest dialog, any NPC dialog, nor any "lore" because it's meaningless and doesn't change the game world.
Soloing is fine, you could solo in EQ1 but it would just take you a long time, the game mechanics completelly encouraged grouping pretty much right from the start, you would gain exp bonus for going to a dungeon and the potential for some really good loots in comparison to your level or from mobs aroudn the area. Later on in the game if you really wanted to progress properly you had to group and having a guild of people who would help each other was really useful and made the game more fun anyway.
This, coupled with the real sense of danger because you can lose your loot and exp made for a much more exhilerated game experience, the whole point in (MMO)RPG is its a mmo, the whole idea is taken from such things like D&D etc and board games like Heroquest and many others which is all about fighting as a group to achieve your goals and advance your character.
Nowadays developers try to cater to the people who just want to be able to go through the whole game without too much of a hard time on their own, while i have no beef with soloing and think you should be able to in an mmorpg, i think it shouldnt be easy.... i mean comon the whole point is to be part of the community in an mmorpg, and the game mechanics should completelly support this more than the solo play, im also not just talking b about end game raids but im talking all the way throughout the game.
It should be a challenge for group play throughout the whole game and even more of a challenege for solo play.
Started playing mmorpg's in 1996 and have been hooked ever since. It began with Kingdom of Drakkar, Ultima Online, Everquest, DAoC, WoW...
I wish there was an mmorpg with the main focus was grouping and exploring. People like to solo and thats fine there should be classes designed for people who like to solo, i think EQ had the best idea with this with the necromancer/Beastmaster. But I find myself lately in every mmorpg getting very bored because I am soloing all the time and when its time to group its either at the very end of the game just raiding the same end content for loot. What ever happened to when mmorpgs were about grouping with others and exploring?
You know, FFXI is still going strong. It has something like 500K subs. And after roughly level ten most classes can't even go to the bathroom solo, much less kill anything.
Why not speak with your wallet and support FF XI or one of the many other forced grouping MMOs that are currently out instead of whining that most modern MMOs have soloable content?
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
Since excessive penalties and downtimes between attempting an encounter do not actually teach you anything new about the encounter I do not see them as part of the challenge of the encounter. You have a very goal oriented idea of a challenge. I prefer challenges that are about personal growth. As such the fact that you hit the bullseye with the dart is irrelevant since you did not actually learn to throw darts accurately. You just got really lucky which is not the same as beating the challenge. It's when you have learned to come back over and over and hit the bullseye that you have really beaten the challenge since there is nothing more you can learn from it.
It does teach you something about the encounter or it should teach you something about the encounter. When you wipe on a Raid you do not learn from your mistakes? If there is penalties and downtime between encounters then you will learn quicker because you will want to avoid the downtimes.
Its like playing sports, the more you play the better you get but there are penalties and downtime in between encounters (games). I played Travel hockey, when we lost a game, the next 2 practice sessions were without sticks and pucks. Nothing but skating drills, let me tell you that we did not lose very often and we learned quickly what we had to do to win hockey games because we did not want to deal with the penalties during the downtime between games.
That is how it should work in MMOs as well, the penalties during the downtime should be so great that it forces the players to learn quickly what not to do in order to avoid those penalties. EQ1 is a great example, players learned quickly no to do certain things during certain raids because of those penalties and downtime.
Planes of Power had a raid event that while clearing to the boss there was room that anytime anyone died including pets, 3 to 5 skeletons would spawn in that room. The first time though the event, we did not know this, we filled that room with skeletons because someone let a pet die and then it got out of control quickly, the point is the very next time we tried that event we had no pets up and everyone was ready for the skeletons and we had a plan for off tanking them as they popped. The point is because of the penalties for failing that first time we learned quickly what not to do and we won the event.
When we wipe on an encounter we learn from the mistakes made in the encounter. Any of the filler stuff we would have to do in the downtime between attempts is not going to teach us much about the failed encounter. The best way to learn from those mistakes is to get right back to the encounter and do it again.
In your hockey example you filled in the time between games on training which is why you got better as hockey players. If your coach had you peel potatoes as punishment instead you would not have improved much. If the filler time is spent doing activities that will make you better when you attempt the challenge again then that is usefull activity. If it just a punishment that does not improve your skills then it is a waste.
In your raid example I am pretty sure that you figured out pretty quickly what you did wrong. It's not like you needed hours of grinding and farming to figure out that you had to stop the skeletons from spawning. If there were no penalties you would have gone right back and done the event correctly. As such your success in that raid depended on whether you guys were smart enough to figure out the trick and not how often you tried the encounter. You could have gone there week after week for months and would not have beaten it if you were not smart to figure it out.
I think you are focusing too much on motivating people to try to beat the challenge. You seem to assume that the people you group with do not really want to be there and will slack off if you do not punish them for failure.
I've never had a ton of time to sink into MMOs. When I was able to play, I got on and got things done. You would think I would prefer a game where soloing is just as rewarding as grouping? Wrong, my favorite MMOs have been FFXI and EQ. The former frustrated the hell out of me at times and it felt tedious at times but there were many times where I enjoyed it soooo much. Whoever mentioned the risk vs. reward is right. I played WoW. No risk involved, you could easily solo your way up to the top levels, basically zero death penalty, etc.. It was boring. I'll take my FFXI and have my lows and highs rather than a game that gives you the same, flatline experience. Mildy fun but not nearly as fun as the other games I mentioned when you were at the high point in the "fun cycle" and by the way WoW got boring...fast. But I fear that the success of WoW will only lead to other games following that pattern until the trend eventually shifts again or a more "niche" type game comes out like EQ or FFXI with updated graphics and a fresh release.
My guess is, if you was horde it was wailing caverns and if you was alliance it probably was VC. Either one isnt that hard to do if you run back and keep killing the extra mobs. still, they are like the beginner dungeons and doesnt really reflect on how hard the other dungeons get.
I was playing horde because that's what my friend plays so it was probably wailing caverns.
Anyway, I'm not trying to say that people shouldn't enjoy WoW. If people like it (as my friend does) that's fine. But it wasn't for me.
The original point of this thread was the OP saying he wished for a grouping and exploring focused MMO and I feel the same way. I have discovered (not just from WoW) that I really dislike games that have me constantly running around doing silly little quests/tasks. I'd rather just go wandering around and find what I find.
And I have discovered (not just from WoW) that if can't get into groups fairly often; groups that work together as a group and in which the people will talk to each other at least a little, then I lose my will to log into the game.
I really don't care about gaining levels and to tell the truth I've always thought that whole idea of levels was silly and even damaging to the concept of a virtual world.
Loot is nice to get and it gives you some motivation but loot alone is not enough to keep me going either.
I need that social side of the game (for better or worse) and without it all the levels and loot in the world just don't matter to me. The really terrible thing for me is that I don't like guilds because that feels...uh, confining to me. I'm not sure how to express this but I feel trapped when I'm in a guild. And generally I have not had good experiences with guilds except for one guild back in the early days of EQ. I also don't like raiding for various reasons that I don't want to get into right now.
So for me it's pretty much PUGs or nothing. So I'm probably screwed. I still have that craving to get back into mmorpgs but I don't want to spend all my time alone and I don't want to raid so there may never be another game that I like.
The sense of achievement comes from beating the challenge. I do not really see why you have to tie in gambling into it. How much you bet on the outcome does not make the challenge harder or easier.
We have fundamentally different ideas on RvR I think. I don't see a challenge if there's no penalty for failure. It's like trying to hit a bullseye with unlimited darts, doesn't matter how bad you are, if you throw enough darts you'll hit it in the end.
You have a very goal oriented idea of a challenge. I prefer challenges that are about personal growth. As such the fact that you hit the bullseye with the dart is irrelevant since you did not actually learn to throw darts accurately. You just got really lucky which is not the same as beating the challenge. It's when you have learned to come back over and over and hit the bullseye that you have really beaten the challenge since there is nothing more you can learn from it.
Since excessive penalties and downtimes between attempting an encounter do not actually teach you anything new about the encounter I do not see them as part of the challenge of the encounter.
Torik, the down time isn't meant to teach you how to do the encounter... It's failure. It's want you don't want which is why you do your best at all times to never be in that spot. Yes it sucks. Yes you can personally grow from it as well as set goals.
Granted - there was a lot of down time in EQ - I can't say that I was fond of all the down time. However, the down time due to failure to me was acceptable. (The down time between fights was a bit long - however it did give time to chat)
Planning and strategy come into play before any encounters because that failure. then the success is that much better when you use those tools instead of figuring it out by trial and error.
When doing new encouters there is always an element of surprise which is where the social aspect comes in. What I mean by this is that knowing trusted people and knowing people that know how to play their class well was part of the challenge.. not just the fighting.
As I said before it's different play styles. Again back to the playing poker with fake chips vs. playing poker with hard earned cash.
Real poker -Its a time sink to lose a big hand.. thinking man that's 4 hours of work down the drain. But if I win a big hand... cha-ching.
Fake chips - It's a minor set back - "Doh, bad hand, I'll have better luck next hand". If you win a big hand - "sweet, good hand! Woot" (Nothing wrong but was there really a sense of acomplishment?? Were you really going to lose anything?)
Both games are fun but for different reasons. Some like the risk of losing.
I learned the same thing from both hands but one had way more risk involved and I'll-be-damned if I mess around playing with my money. I'm going to do what it takes NOT TO LOSE. If i'm playing with the fake chips I'm way more inclined to let a weak hand fly because....well...what does it matter? I wont lose anything other than that hand.
All of this depends on what the player thinks is fun. I can't say the state of all MMO's is in dire straights due to the soloability as the OP suggested. However most games are catering to that crowd. Those that like a bit of challenge are left stranded with few options.
That is why I liked FFXI alot because you grouped with other people you don't know and have a great time playing. Somehow along the lines players forgot what it is like to make a great community. Today in mmos it is all about me,myself and I.
Bouncing off the first few posts, I think there is plenty of soloing and plenty of grouping. If you're a solo player, groups will always seem more scarce because you don't have the connections or know how to jump into groups (which are easy to find if you do). But anyway, I think the real problem lies in lack of differentiation in what there is to do in the world, lack of player influence on how world events unfold and a game in which the player is limited by things such as skill points/stats/levels. A game should have no limitation or atleast any limit there are should be extremely high so that players can continue to grow and never reach a point where they stop and just rince and repeat quests/PvP/PvE/etc.
Many FPS games do this effectively though it's easier for them because of the level of control over the character. You may be stiff when you start playing an FPS game, only running and aiming your cross hair but as you play you start using the physics of the game enhance your play style such as jumping on top of a box and then leaping off while spraying the enemy players below you.
Trying to actually summarize a lot of this into something worthwhile, I think it is clear that the "community" as represented here really falls into three categories...
Those who want it even easier to solo and less grouping content than is found now in the main titles; Those mostly okay with how things are now ; and Those who want a more solidly group-dominated game.
All of that is based on preferences and although I clearly have an opinion on which I want, no one can be *right* or *wrong* about it.
Given that I think the new trend of MMOFPS will be catering ever more towards the first group and the 2nd claim to be okay with where we are now...I think the relevent part here is that there is clearly a niche open in the market for a "harder", group-dominated, "old school" MMO - provided it had updated graphics, all the modern chat/ui features we have come to expect and solutions other than pointless timesinks to make it "difficult".
That's actually something I hope some dev team twigs onto and does something with. There is nothing wrong with endless variation in the market and it would be nice to see more playstyes supported.
What ever happened you ask? Well I don' think there was ever an age where grouping and exploring was really popular.. like it is but I can only think back to SWG..
Trying to actually summarize a lot of this into something worthwhile, I think it is clear that the "community" as represented here really falls into three categories... Those who want it even easier to solo and less grouping content than is found now in the main titles; Those mostly okay with how things are now ; and Those who want a more solidly group-dominated game. All of that is based on preferences and although I clearly have an opinion on which I want, no one can be *right* or *wrong* about it. Given that I think the new trend of MMOFPS will be catering ever more towards the first group and the 2nd claim to be okay with where we are now...I think the relevent part here is that there is clearly a niche open in the market for a "harder", group-dominated, "old school" MMO - provided it had updated graphics, all the modern chat/ui features we have come to expect and solutions other than pointless timesinks to make it "difficult". That's actually something I hope some dev team twigs onto and does something with. There is nothing wrong with endless variation in the market and it would be nice to see more playstyes supported.
Yep, i think you pretty much nailed it really.... the only thing is though that many many people get their opinion on what the market mesmerised them too, i actually believe in all honesty that a game which has more risk vs reward and a group focused game (but ofc with a bit of soloing if you really want to) is alot more fun when you get into it, ofcourse this is subjective, but if those people who are negative about it keep an open mind i think they will understand why some of us oldschool gamers who played titles such as EQ really enjoyed it alot.
I hope some developers do make some more group centric, more "hardcore" (risk vs reward) type mmorpg's because i think its a more exhilerating gaming experience. Knowing theres no loss from failing doesnt go very well for me, i love a challenge and if you need cooperative grouplay then, even better. :P
Started playing mmorpg's in 1996 and have been hooked ever since. It began with Kingdom of Drakkar, Ultima Online, Everquest, DAoC, WoW...
I agree with the person who said the problem is that groups are expected to have a specific makeup. I love grouping, and I get bored of soloing. Maybe its because soloing is always an afterthough. Whatever the reason I don't enjoy soloing in MMOs. I enjoy grouping, but the problem is its a huge hassle to get a group together, then you have to worry if the healer or tank is leaving.
The first devs to make a game that don't require a healer or tank to be in a group is probably going to be the next WoW killer. Why can't 6 different dps classes group up? Why do we need 2 classes dictating the pace of the game?
I know there are close-minded people out there that think since EQ decided that a MMO consisted of a healer and tank defining every group, then that is the way it should be. Wake up! Think outside the box!
Look at EVE. No healer, and the game is very popular.
Comments
We have fundamentally different ideas on RvR I think. I don't see a challenge if there's no penalty for failure. It's like trying to hit a bullseye with unlimited darts, doesn't matter how bad you are, if you throw enough darts you'll hit it in the end.
You have a very goal oriented idea of a challenge. I prefer challenges that are about personal growth. As such the fact that you hit the bullseye with the dart is irrelevant since you did not actually learn to throw darts accurately. You just got really lucky which is not the same as beating the challenge. It's when you have learned to come back over and over and hit the bullseye that you have really beaten the challenge since there is nothing more you can learn from it.
Since excessive penalties and downtimes between attempting an encounter do not actually teach you anything new about the encounter I do not see them as part of the challenge of the encounter.
It does teach you something about the encounter or it should teach you something about the encounter. When you wipe on a Raid you do not learn from your mistakes? If there is penalties and downtime between encounters then you will learn quicker because you will want to avoid the downtimes.
Its like playing sports, the more you play the better you get but there are penalties and downtime in between encounters (games). I played Travel hockey, when we lost a game, the next 2 practice sessions were without sticks and pucks. Nothing but skating drills, let me tell you that we did not lose very often and we learned quickly what we had to do to win hockey games because we did not want to deal with the penalties during the downtime between games.
That is how it should work in MMOs as well, the penalties during the downtime should be so great that it forces the players to learn quickly what not to do in order to avoid those penalties. EQ1 is a great example, players learned quickly no to do certain things during certain raids because of those penalties and downtime.
Planes of Power had a raid event that while clearing to the boss there was room that anytime anyone died including pets, 3 to 5 skeletons would spawn in that room. The first time though the event, we did not know this, we filled that room with skeletons because someone let a pet die and then it got out of control quickly, the point is the very next time we tried that event we had no pets up and everyone was ready for the skeletons and we had a plan for off tanking them as they popped. The point is because of the penalties for failing that first time we learned quickly what not to do and we won the event.
Sooner or Later
The ability to solo is the least of the problems with today's MMO's.
Had to remove signature because of lame code of conduct...
I am calling BS on this one. There is no dungeon instance in WoW where two people of the level apprioprate for the instance can clear it so easily.
You can call BS all you want but that's what happened. I'd tell you the name of the instance if I remembered it but I'm not even sure if my friend told me the name of it at the time. He just led me to it and we did it and, honestly, I was already in the "whatever man, it's all a bunch of crap" mindset regarding WoW so I really didn't give a damn about the names of anything or the 'lore' or any of that crap. He probably mentioned what the place was called and I immediately forgot it. I'd ask him this weekend what the place was but the fact that I quit WoW is a bit of a sore spot between us so I don't like to bring it up.
What I can tell you is that it was a dungeon, it was definately an instance, we got experience from the kills, and my friend said it was intended for five people.
And anyway, how could anyone not clear any dungeon in WoW if they are least capable of killing a few things each time in before they die. All they have to do is like we did with the boss room in that place. Just keep suiciding into it untill you beat it. With no penalty for dying what's to stop you from doing that?
We have fundamentally different ideas on RvR I think. I don't see a challenge if there's no penalty for failure. It's like trying to hit a bullseye with unlimited darts, doesn't matter how bad you are, if you throw enough darts you'll hit it in the end.
You have a very goal oriented idea of a challenge. I prefer challenges that are about personal growth. As such the fact that you hit the bullseye with the dart is irrelevant since you did not actually learn to throw darts accurately. You just got really lucky which is not the same as beating the challenge.
No. You would be lucky eventually with your approach of limitless attempts. I would be sure I was prepared and able to throw darts to a reasonable standard when I arrived, because I don't want to pay the penalty even once if I can help it.
I am so sick of hearing that I only remember the good things or that I look at EQ1 though rose tinted glasses or that I don't remember the real EQ1.
That is all bull shit. I remember my days in EQ1 well, I remember all the bad times and all the good. I remember losing corpse due to rot because I could not get to my corpse after a PuG Fear raid (last time I did a PUG Fear raid). Trust me, I know EQ1 was not a perfect game but compared to the MMOs that I have played in the last few years it was the best. I remember dieing to trains and being pissed off because some asshole just killed me. I remember the hell levels, taking weeks to gain a SINGLE LEVEL. (I leveled a Warrior and a Necromancer though hell levels before they were removed). I remember
I personally had a rule while playing EQ1, If I died 3 times in a play session, I was done for the day. WHY? because 3 deaths ment I lost alot of exp because you felt death, it made you a better player because you did everything in your power not to die. I have seen, done and hear of people dieing to travel in WoW. That is a huge FLAW. WoW is like playing an MMORPG on easy mode, nothing you say will change my mind on that fact. I have played WoW, I do know what I am talking about.
MMORPGS = TIMESINKS - EVERY MMO IS A TIMESINK. That is the point of a MMORPG.
I do not play EQ1 now because I will not the support team around me like I did the first time, both guilds I was in during my 5 years in EQ1 have moved on. I still think about playing EQ1 from time to time but I am so far behind the expansions at this point I rather start fresh on a new game with the same concepts that EQ1 had.
I tried Vanguard during beta and then a few months ago, it just does not have that felling. It is missing the community.
You sound like some people I know. People who get upset that other players have an easier time than they did back in the day. Or, to put it another way, you sound like an old man complaining how the current generation is ruining the country. My apologies if I don't take diatribes like that seriously. It's too bad you had to walk 10 miles through snow every day to get to school. We have buses now. Get used to it.
I am not saying MMOs today are perfect, in fact there are a number of ways they could get better. That said, they are better than what came before. It should not be painful to get a group going (but EQ had that too, I'd note), for instance. There should be rewards for doing well with a group. Challenges should exist, but they should be based on capricious punishment if you fail (like a death penalty). There are better ways to design a risk/reward system than that (I've made a few posts about other ways to go about it, but they are quickly swallowed by blather). Let's talk about that instead of ranting against current MMOs.
I am so sick of hearing that I only remember the good things or that I look at EQ1 though rose tinted glasses or that I don't remember the real EQ1.
That is all bull shit. I remember my days in EQ1 well, I remember all the bad times and all the good. I remember losing corpse due to rot because I could not get to my corpse after a PuG Fear raid (last time I did a PUG Fear raid). Trust me, I know EQ1 was not a perfect game but compared to the MMOs that I have played in the last few years it was the best. I remember dieing to trains and being pissed off because some asshole just killed me. I remember the hell levels, taking weeks to gain a SINGLE LEVEL. (I leveled a Warrior and a Necromancer though hell levels before they were removed). I remember
I personally had a rule while playing EQ1, If I died 3 times in a play session, I was done for the day. WHY? because 3 deaths ment I lost alot of exp because you felt death, it made you a better player because you did everything in your power not to die. I have seen, done and hear of people dieing to travel in WoW. That is a huge FLAW. WoW is like playing an MMORPG on easy mode, nothing you say will change my mind on that fact. I have played WoW, I do know what I am talking about.
MMORPGS = TIMESINKS - EVERY MMO IS A TIMESINK. That is the point of a MMORPG.
I do not play EQ1 now because I will not the support team around me like I did the first time, both guilds I was in during my 5 years in EQ1 have moved on. I still think about playing EQ1 from time to time but I am so far behind the expansions at this point I rather start fresh on a new game with the same concepts that EQ1 had.
I tried Vanguard during beta and then a few months ago, it just does not have that felling. It is missing the community.
You sound like some people I know. People who get upset that other players have an easier time than they did back in the day. Or, to put it another way, you sound like an old man complaining how the current generation is ruining the country. My apologies if I don't take diatribes like that seriously. It's too bad you had to walk 10 miles through snow every day to get to school. We have buses now. Get used to it.
I am not saying MMOs today are perfect, in fact there are a number of ways they could get better. That said, they are better than what came before. It should not be painful to get a group going (but EQ had that too, I'd note), for instance. There should be rewards for doing well with a group. Challenges should exist, but they should be based on capricious punishment if you fail (like a death penalty). There are better ways to design a risk/reward system than that (I've made a few posts about other ways to go about it, but they are quickly swallowed by blather). Let's talk about that instead of ranting against current MMOs.
See I do not care what other people had to go though or not go though. I just want a game that I can enjoy for another long period of time like I did in EQ1 (5+ years). I do not care that others have it easier in these new MMOs.
I have a problem with being forced to do a million pointless quests, quest get boring if they are not fun which I have not had any fun quest since EQ1. I want to be able to log in, grab some friends and go hunting/exping and exploring and not be gimped for doing so. WAR has Warbands for the PvP which is why I still sub to that game, I group 90% of my time in that game. I only do PvP becasue the PvE is boring and the same old same old.
Sooner or Later
VG have the layout but not the gameplay when it comes to dungeons, vanguard take the dungeon crawling approach like most of the MMO's today but without instancing ( which is good ), i remember talking in VG beta about the needs of implement different kinds of dungeons/zones for different types of gameplay, so im not talking about "dungeon crawling" which VG have, is more ( if you wanna call it in that way ) "dungeon camping".
So dungeons are like hubs where you meet people, join up and get fun, every season on that dungeon is different beacause the people that is playng in that dungeon is different, today dungeons are just zones where you go with you premade, do it for an hour and never come back, different gameplay with same layout.
I know is hard to understand if someone havent try both and by no means im saying that one way is better than other, is just that i enjoy much more the old EQ concept.
So to recap, i joined VG in beta1 and i played till 3 months before release ( max. level nothing to do ) and VG offers nothing like most people are looking for in terms of group and dungeon gameplay, imo of course.
But I do understand, I am an old EQ1 vet. Vanguards dungeons are the closest thing to eq1 dungeons than anything else. (helps it was made by BM who made eq1) I also was in Vanguards beta. The game is 2 years old so you are not familiar with over half of the dungeons in the game since you only played beta. Try it again.
Sorry, it was a typo, i mean played till 3 months after release, we ( premade group ) did a ton of dungeons and we enjoyed that, but the gameplay from VG dungeons to EQ dungeons is completely different, my advice is if you have a full party of friends to play with go on and you will enjoy the VG content, otherwise you hardly will.
There is nothing similar to EQ dungeons today.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
My guess is, if you was horde it was wailing caverns and if you was alliance it probably was VC. Either one isnt that hard to do if you run back and keep killing the extra mobs. still, they are like the beginner dungeons and doesnt really reflect on how hard the other dungeons get.
IMHO MMO's shouldnt make it where you have to be in a group to play it, they need to make more of the game where you interact with others .. such as BG's etc .. Things that any body could do when ever they get on, not HAVE to look for groups in order to play . Too many people get left behind because they have to find a group in order to finish a quest line etc ..
My personal feeling is, leveling up characters can be done solo, or in groups but should be able to be the individual's choice, but there should be game play besides the normal level up quest that let people play together and have fun, outside of just leveling; and just having instanced RAIDS isnt what i mean .. they always take a certain amount of people and certain class's to do them, im talking about game play that u can get into when ever your able to get into the game. Jump in, play with others and not worry about finding groups and waiting for people.
MMO's need to have zones with ideas that make it where people can play together to achieve goals etc .. RVR is sort of along this line of thinking. But that sort of restricts it to PVP oriented content and i think there could be ways to do it where non pvpers can have fun doing stuff together also.
Having non static cities, and gear that needs to be replaced would help, stuff that last forever and never changes gets in the way of MMO group fun i think.
I agree. If I want to solo, I can play a game offline. The only reason I play MMORPGs is to group, even with PUGs, so if the grouping is no good, IMO the game is no good if it's an MMORPG.
If I want to follow canned stories and quest lines, I'll play something like Fallout 3. If I'm online, I"m not reading any quest dialog, any NPC dialog, nor any "lore" because it's meaningless and doesn't change the game world.
Soloing is fine, you could solo in EQ1 but it would just take you a long time, the game mechanics completelly encouraged grouping pretty much right from the start, you would gain exp bonus for going to a dungeon and the potential for some really good loots in comparison to your level or from mobs aroudn the area. Later on in the game if you really wanted to progress properly you had to group and having a guild of people who would help each other was really useful and made the game more fun anyway.
This, coupled with the real sense of danger because you can lose your loot and exp made for a much more exhilerated game experience, the whole point in (MMO)RPG is its a mmo, the whole idea is taken from such things like D&D etc and board games like Heroquest and many others which is all about fighting as a group to achieve your goals and advance your character.
Nowadays developers try to cater to the people who just want to be able to go through the whole game without too much of a hard time on their own, while i have no beef with soloing and think you should be able to in an mmorpg, i think it shouldnt be easy.... i mean comon the whole point is to be part of the community in an mmorpg, and the game mechanics should completelly support this more than the solo play, im also not just talking b about end game raids but im talking all the way throughout the game.
It should be a challenge for group play throughout the whole game and even more of a challenege for solo play.
You know, FFXI is still going strong. It has something like 500K subs. And after roughly level ten most classes can't even go to the bathroom solo, much less kill anything.
Why not speak with your wallet and support FF XI or one of the many other forced grouping MMOs that are currently out instead of whining that most modern MMOs have soloable content?
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
It does teach you something about the encounter or it should teach you something about the encounter. When you wipe on a Raid you do not learn from your mistakes? If there is penalties and downtime between encounters then you will learn quicker because you will want to avoid the downtimes.
Its like playing sports, the more you play the better you get but there are penalties and downtime in between encounters (games). I played Travel hockey, when we lost a game, the next 2 practice sessions were without sticks and pucks. Nothing but skating drills, let me tell you that we did not lose very often and we learned quickly what we had to do to win hockey games because we did not want to deal with the penalties during the downtime between games.
That is how it should work in MMOs as well, the penalties during the downtime should be so great that it forces the players to learn quickly what not to do in order to avoid those penalties. EQ1 is a great example, players learned quickly no to do certain things during certain raids because of those penalties and downtime.
Planes of Power had a raid event that while clearing to the boss there was room that anytime anyone died including pets, 3 to 5 skeletons would spawn in that room. The first time though the event, we did not know this, we filled that room with skeletons because someone let a pet die and then it got out of control quickly, the point is the very next time we tried that event we had no pets up and everyone was ready for the skeletons and we had a plan for off tanking them as they popped. The point is because of the penalties for failing that first time we learned quickly what not to do and we won the event.
When we wipe on an encounter we learn from the mistakes made in the encounter. Any of the filler stuff we would have to do in the downtime between attempts is not going to teach us much about the failed encounter. The best way to learn from those mistakes is to get right back to the encounter and do it again.
In your hockey example you filled in the time between games on training which is why you got better as hockey players. If your coach had you peel potatoes as punishment instead you would not have improved much. If the filler time is spent doing activities that will make you better when you attempt the challenge again then that is usefull activity. If it just a punishment that does not improve your skills then it is a waste.
In your raid example I am pretty sure that you figured out pretty quickly what you did wrong. It's not like you needed hours of grinding and farming to figure out that you had to stop the skeletons from spawning. If there were no penalties you would have gone right back and done the event correctly. As such your success in that raid depended on whether you guys were smart enough to figure out the trick and not how often you tried the encounter. You could have gone there week after week for months and would not have beaten it if you were not smart to figure it out.
I think you are focusing too much on motivating people to try to beat the challenge. You seem to assume that the people you group with do not really want to be there and will slack off if you do not punish them for failure.
I've never had a ton of time to sink into MMOs. When I was able to play, I got on and got things done. You would think I would prefer a game where soloing is just as rewarding as grouping? Wrong, my favorite MMOs have been FFXI and EQ. The former frustrated the hell out of me at times and it felt tedious at times but there were many times where I enjoyed it soooo much. Whoever mentioned the risk vs. reward is right. I played WoW. No risk involved, you could easily solo your way up to the top levels, basically zero death penalty, etc.. It was boring. I'll take my FFXI and have my lows and highs rather than a game that gives you the same, flatline experience. Mildy fun but not nearly as fun as the other games I mentioned when you were at the high point in the "fun cycle" and by the way WoW got boring...fast. But I fear that the success of WoW will only lead to other games following that pattern until the trend eventually shifts again or a more "niche" type game comes out like EQ or FFXI with updated graphics and a fresh release.
i certainly hope developers start to create mmorpg with much more of a challenege and risk to it. Like the games you mentioned.
I was playing horde because that's what my friend plays so it was probably wailing caverns.
Anyway, I'm not trying to say that people shouldn't enjoy WoW. If people like it (as my friend does) that's fine. But it wasn't for me.
The original point of this thread was the OP saying he wished for a grouping and exploring focused MMO and I feel the same way. I have discovered (not just from WoW) that I really dislike games that have me constantly running around doing silly little quests/tasks. I'd rather just go wandering around and find what I find.
And I have discovered (not just from WoW) that if can't get into groups fairly often; groups that work together as a group and in which the people will talk to each other at least a little, then I lose my will to log into the game.
I really don't care about gaining levels and to tell the truth I've always thought that whole idea of levels was silly and even damaging to the concept of a virtual world.
Loot is nice to get and it gives you some motivation but loot alone is not enough to keep me going either.
I need that social side of the game (for better or worse) and without it all the levels and loot in the world just don't matter to me. The really terrible thing for me is that I don't like guilds because that feels...uh, confining to me. I'm not sure how to express this but I feel trapped when I'm in a guild. And generally I have not had good experiences with guilds except for one guild back in the early days of EQ. I also don't like raiding for various reasons that I don't want to get into right now.
So for me it's pretty much PUGs or nothing. So I'm probably screwed. I still have that craving to get back into mmorpgs but I don't want to spend all my time alone and I don't want to raid so there may never be another game that I like.
We have fundamentally different ideas on RvR I think. I don't see a challenge if there's no penalty for failure. It's like trying to hit a bullseye with unlimited darts, doesn't matter how bad you are, if you throw enough darts you'll hit it in the end.
You have a very goal oriented idea of a challenge. I prefer challenges that are about personal growth. As such the fact that you hit the bullseye with the dart is irrelevant since you did not actually learn to throw darts accurately. You just got really lucky which is not the same as beating the challenge. It's when you have learned to come back over and over and hit the bullseye that you have really beaten the challenge since there is nothing more you can learn from it.
Since excessive penalties and downtimes between attempting an encounter do not actually teach you anything new about the encounter I do not see them as part of the challenge of the encounter.
Torik, the down time isn't meant to teach you how to do the encounter... It's failure. It's want you don't want which is why you do your best at all times to never be in that spot. Yes it sucks. Yes you can personally grow from it as well as set goals.
Granted - there was a lot of down time in EQ - I can't say that I was fond of all the down time. However, the down time due to failure to me was acceptable. (The down time between fights was a bit long - however it did give time to chat)
Planning and strategy come into play before any encounters because that failure. then the success is that much better when you use those tools instead of figuring it out by trial and error.
When doing new encouters there is always an element of surprise which is where the social aspect comes in. What I mean by this is that knowing trusted people and knowing people that know how to play their class well was part of the challenge.. not just the fighting.
As I said before it's different play styles. Again back to the playing poker with fake chips vs. playing poker with hard earned cash.
Real poker -Its a time sink to lose a big hand.. thinking man that's 4 hours of work down the drain. But if I win a big hand... cha-ching.
Fake chips - It's a minor set back - "Doh, bad hand, I'll have better luck next hand". If you win a big hand - "sweet, good hand! Woot" (Nothing wrong but was there really a sense of acomplishment?? Were you really going to lose anything?)
Both games are fun but for different reasons. Some like the risk of losing.
I learned the same thing from both hands but one had way more risk involved and I'll-be-damned if I mess around playing with my money. I'm going to do what it takes NOT TO LOSE. If i'm playing with the fake chips I'm way more inclined to let a weak hand fly because....well...what does it matter? I wont lose anything other than that hand.
All of this depends on what the player thinks is fun. I can't say the state of all MMO's is in dire straights due to the soloability as the OP suggested. However most games are catering to that crowd. Those that like a bit of challenge are left stranded with few options.
https://www.youtube.com/user/NemsGaming
That is why I liked FFXI alot because you grouped with other people you don't know and have a great time playing. Somehow along the lines players forgot what it is like to make a great community. Today in mmos it is all about me,myself and I.
Bouncing off the first few posts, I think there is plenty of soloing and plenty of grouping. If you're a solo player, groups will always seem more scarce because you don't have the connections or know how to jump into groups (which are easy to find if you do). But anyway, I think the real problem lies in lack of differentiation in what there is to do in the world, lack of player influence on how world events unfold and a game in which the player is limited by things such as skill points/stats/levels. A game should have no limitation or atleast any limit there are should be extremely high so that players can continue to grow and never reach a point where they stop and just rince and repeat quests/PvP/PvE/etc.
Many FPS games do this effectively though it's easier for them because of the level of control over the character. You may be stiff when you start playing an FPS game, only running and aiming your cross hair but as you play you start using the physics of the game enhance your play style such as jumping on top of a box and then leaping off while spraying the enemy players below you.
Final Fantasy 11 is 99% grouping.
Trying to actually summarize a lot of this into something worthwhile, I think it is clear that the "community" as represented here really falls into three categories...
Those who want it even easier to solo and less grouping content than is found now in the main titles; Those mostly okay with how things are now ; and Those who want a more solidly group-dominated game.
All of that is based on preferences and although I clearly have an opinion on which I want, no one can be *right* or *wrong* about it.
Given that I think the new trend of MMOFPS will be catering ever more towards the first group and the 2nd claim to be okay with where we are now...I think the relevent part here is that there is clearly a niche open in the market for a "harder", group-dominated, "old school" MMO - provided it had updated graphics, all the modern chat/ui features we have come to expect and solutions other than pointless timesinks to make it "difficult".
That's actually something I hope some dev team twigs onto and does something with. There is nothing wrong with endless variation in the market and it would be nice to see more playstyes supported.
What ever happened you ask? Well I don' think there was ever an age where grouping and exploring was really popular.. like it is but I can only think back to SWG..
reply to original topic and last post , about gategories,
its ovious, people are different and hen you make game like mmo
you should know this fact also and offer everyhting to everyone
and in my opinion rewards from quests and stuff should be par to everyone
only make different ways to get em. there are people who like to play mmos very much as ive been talking and noticing
during my years of online gaming. that just want to have the feeling that there is other real peoples running around
" pixelated " of course but you know what i mean. but also dont fancy going to grouping or compete end game with
tens of people in some dungeons in order to get some shite on em. so in diffferent ways to obtain stuff
wich is par to all stuff that have in game.
if you ask what i want from mmo ? i suppose you dont but i tell anyway, i like the feeling there is other players but i like solo
and party with friends , i do dislike raiding, at in any mmo there is.
have a nice day people
Yep, i think you pretty much nailed it really.... the only thing is though that many many people get their opinion on what the market mesmerised them too, i actually believe in all honesty that a game which has more risk vs reward and a group focused game (but ofc with a bit of soloing if you really want to) is alot more fun when you get into it, ofcourse this is subjective, but if those people who are negative about it keep an open mind i think they will understand why some of us oldschool gamers who played titles such as EQ really enjoyed it alot.
I hope some developers do make some more group centric, more "hardcore" (risk vs reward) type mmorpg's because i think its a more exhilerating gaming experience. Knowing theres no loss from failing doesnt go very well for me, i love a challenge and if you need cooperative grouplay then, even better. :P
I agree with the person who said the problem is that groups are expected to have a specific makeup. I love grouping, and I get bored of soloing. Maybe its because soloing is always an afterthough. Whatever the reason I don't enjoy soloing in MMOs. I enjoy grouping, but the problem is its a huge hassle to get a group together, then you have to worry if the healer or tank is leaving.
The first devs to make a game that don't require a healer or tank to be in a group is probably going to be the next WoW killer. Why can't 6 different dps classes group up? Why do we need 2 classes dictating the pace of the game?
I know there are close-minded people out there that think since EQ decided that a MMO consisted of a healer and tank defining every group, then that is the way it should be. Wake up! Think outside the box!
Look at EVE. No healer, and the game is very popular.