I disagree. Its your preference of gamer... find a game that does requires grouping... like for example.. Final Fantasy XI Online.
Everyone that likes grouping games doesn't want to only play FFXI forever, just like everyone that likes solo games doesn't want to play the same game forever.
I disagree. Its your preference of gamer... find a game that does requires grouping... like for example.. Final Fantasy XI Online.
Everyone that likes grouping games doesn't want to only play FFXI forever, just like everyone that likes solo games doesn't want to play the same game forever.
Ok, let me put this way for you to see. I'm Asheron's Call player and its solo game 95% of the time and I been playing that game from 99' to 06'. I think thats pretty much "forever" in definition. The only reason i quit is because of population and 10 years old graphic otherwise I would be playing it nowadays. They should have plenty time ot make another game like that.
Now for grouping, there is bunch of grouping game nowadays. Where is game like Asheron's Call? ZIP
It's all about economics. If people want group games, and pay for group games, then more companies make group games. If people want solo games, and pay for solo games, then more companies make solo games. So if there's a lot of solo-friendly games out there, and you don't like it, blame other players. The companies gotta make a buck, or they won't be able to continue making games. They have to keep their shareholders happy, so they can't spend lots o' cash on a niche game. The companies did their homework, and their target audiences have spoken. Blame the millions of people who religiously play the solo-friendly MMOs.
It's all about economics. If people want group games, and pay for group games, then more companies make group games. If people want solo games, and pay for solo games, then more companies make solo games. So if there's a lot of solo-friendly games out there, and you don't like it, blame other players. The companies gotta make a buck, or they won't be able to continue making games. They have to keep their shareholders happy, so they can't spend lots o' cash on a niche game. The companies did their homework, and their target audiences have spoken. Blame the millions of people who religiously play the solo-friendly MMOs. Pretty much, however if 1 of those company makes game that is solo, lets see how the market is. I mean, look at Turbine when they took out Asheron's Cal in 99', it was very very successful and they are still doing live event every months nowadays. The early days of AC, there was thousand and thousand of people everywhere, hundreds in 1 town. Of course right now population isnt good because its 10 years old game and graphic is kinda outdated. They need to make another game like this then it will impact on solo market.
Obviously there are lots of other things we'd all love to "fix" about the current gen of MMOs, but thats not what were really talking about. I'm sure people in all three categories could find many things to agree (heh and more to disagree) on that need fixing. I think my categories are pretty valid when you are only looking at the group vs solo question...but of course I would...I made it up after all.
The catagories are bad because it's basically asking the question: How do you feel about the broken group mechanics? Do you want more of them, more solo content, or are you happy?
This is the wrong question to ask (don't take this personally). Anyhow, we certainly are talking about grouping and what might need to get fixed regarding it in current MMOs. Considering the thread title is "problem with todays mmorpgs is too much soloing," then I think discussing the PROBLEMS with grouping mechanics in current MMOs is extremely relevent.
Obviously, I'd disagree - because there have been people posting in this thread that want even more solo content and less grouping (or none at all)...regardless of the mechanics. I agree that a large part of the issue for a more grouping oriented game would be making the grouping mechanics better/easier/more rewarding...but it seems there are still people who would want nothing to do with them. Clearly there are a lot of people who like soloing and see nothing wrong with basically playing an MMO as a single player game all the way to the "raid" or "pvp" content.
Sometimes it still amazes me that people want to solo in a multiplayer online game. I understand that you get players online that are immature/rude but for the most part I am sure people can find other people to group with and have fun online.
Sometimes it still amazes me that people want to solo in a multiplayer online game. I understand that you get players online that are immature/rude but for the most part I am sure people can find other people to group with and have fun online.
I agree. I understand some solo content for something people to do real quick if they only have a little spare time. I'm absolutely dumbfounded by the people that want the majority of content to be solo content. I mean seriously? These people want to pay monthly for sub-par, brainlessly repetitive content to play by themselves online? Thats just dumb.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
Obviously there are lots of other things we'd all love to "fix" about the current gen of MMOs, but thats not what were really talking about. I'm sure people in all three categories could find many things to agree (heh and more to disagree) on that need fixing. I think my categories are pretty valid when you are only looking at the group vs solo question...but of course I would...I made it up after all.
The catagories are bad because it's basically asking the question: How do you feel about the broken group mechanics? Do you want more of them, more solo content, or are you happy?
This is the wrong question to ask (don't take this personally). Anyhow, we certainly are talking about grouping and what might need to get fixed regarding it in current MMOs. Considering the thread title is "problem with todays mmorpgs is too much soloing," then I think discussing the PROBLEMS with grouping mechanics in current MMOs is extremely relevent.
Obviously, I'd disagree - because there have been people posting in this thread that want even more solo content and less grouping (or none at all)...regardless of the mechanics. I agree that a large part of the issue for a more grouping oriented game would be making the grouping mechanics better/easier/more rewarding...but it seems there are still people who would want nothing to do with them. Clearly there are a lot of people who like soloing and see nothing wrong with basically playing an MMO as a single player game all the way to the "raid" or "pvp" content.
Well of course there are people that hate grouping. The current grouping mechanics largely suck. Naturally a number of people will respond to that by wanting little to do with it. That doesn't necessarily mean that they hate the idea of working with others or doing things with others. They might just hate the hassle and clunkiness needed to form a group to handle any challenging content, and dislike how easy the game gets when in a group for other content. It could be some other aspect that they dislike. Of course some people do just want to be by themselves, but your catagories don't distinguish between these two very different sorts of "solo" players.
Sometimes it still amazes me that people want to solo in a multiplayer online game. I understand that you get players online that are immature/rude but for the most part I am sure people can find other people to group with and have fun online.
I agree. I understand some solo content for something people to do real quick if they only have a little spare time. I'm absolutely dumbfounded by the people that want the majority of content to be solo content. I mean seriously? These people want to pay monthly for sub-par, brainlessly repetitive content to play by themselves online? Thats just dumb.
and your saying the current end game content offered by most MMOs isn't boringly repetitive?
I think the OP has a pont, but was a bit off the mark. Group content is FAR too restrictive in nearly all current games. Requiring a highly specialized group (say a healer, tank, and 3 dps) overshadows any solo content problem. If you want more group content, you shouldn't demand you need a group with X, Y, and Z or you have to play some specialized class for soloing. I agree there should be more group friendly activities, or rather I think the group activities need to be more varied. Doing stuff with a friend or two and no one else should be fun, viable, and provide a real challange. You should also be able to do stuff by yourself if you don't have a friend online. In any case, grouping shouldn't be a requirement, but there should be plenty of stuff to do with a group of any size without obscene restrictions (less tank/healer/dps-based games please) if you are all willing to work together. Make group content a fun choice, rather than something that requires a lot of work and being picky about what class/spec/whatever the person you want to group with has. Personally, I'd like to see a MMO in an extremely large world. Lots of small town and other starting zones. You wouldn't get quests like in WoW, but instead they'd be generated as you traveled around. Go to a farm and someone there might run up to you and ask to help find their daughter or some such, for instance. The quest and bad guys for it get spawned together, and if you are with someone else it takes that into account. If you are alone then the game slowly tries to lead you into stumbling upon someone else on their own quest (where you can join up and work together seemlessly if you wish). Obviously there'd be a lot of contingency issues the game engine would need to handle, but that sort of gameplay would be a lot of fun and immersive. Of course, I'd like to see quests where you could fail and that would have lasting consequences too (daughter can die and stay dead for instance), but that's a side issue as far as grouping goes.
CoV got system generated missions, generated on the fly as you approach an NPC. Newspaper missions they were once called. Unfortunately, randomly generated missions are generally one stop missions, not long story arcs, where you have lore and some twist/plots.
As for real challenge, 1 heal 1 tank 3 dps is just a safety net setup. There is no limit on how you form your group, only your resourcefulness and imagination. Take Wow as illustration. We have tried 2 tank groups, 5 paly teams (which actually works very well until we hit the boss) and whatever else. Just ready some repair money when you die.
In a Tank/healer/DPS game, the setup is a saftey net only if the content isn't tuned to be challenging to a tank, healer, and a DPS, or you might overgear or outlevel the content you are working on. That's because if it is a challenge, then you definitely need that healer spamming heals, and the tank taking damage. Though some games have small subversions, like CoH, where you can get by with another strategy. WoW is certainly NOT an example of this however (and 5 pally teams can easily have a healer, tank, and 3 dps for what it is worth, and if you overgear or the content is undertuned then you can handle the inept dps of the second person who is specced tanking).
As for CoV, do those randomly generated missions feel unique, or are there just a few different missions with some variations?
5 palies need not be tank heal dps, can be 5 tanks, dps+tanks and so on. The idea is to try it out. Overgearing or not depends on your taste. We once tried doing strat at lvl 80 nake with fists. Fun. I start with skill 1 in hand to hand on my warrior and earn a lot of skills just doing that instance run. The key is, if you want to explore, be ready for surprises, enjoy it and spare some time doing dailies to pay for your gear repair. Or go in nake like I do. It cost nothing if you die nake.
CoV, well its just a standard generic mission generator:
1. go to XXX (location given) and kill the boss inside the instance
2. go to XXX and rescue some NPC, escort her out
3. go to XXX and rob a bank == kill the guards
location is random instance, entrance on any random building in the city map, mob type random (some do physical damag, or lethal damage as called in game, others do other types of damange).
Is CoV fun? yes very fun for a change in style, fast paced, very different levelling path and loot. The idea that the skill you learn in lvl 1 is still very useful complement at max level, means there is no wasted outdated filler skills. You pick the skill you use till you quit game, as you level up. The planning of your character starts at lvl 1. In WoW only the lvl 80 skills matters, and only the end game gear matters.
As for the issue of challenge, it can be as challenging as you see fit. Imagine trying to solo an end game dungeon, trying your best to go as far as you can. Imagine 2 team racing to finish an instance as fast as you can. We did racing DM East in the old days, finding ways to skip as many mobs as we can to kill final boss. We can start a race to max lvl an alt (/played). We can start levelling an alt with 2 prof and max out everything in the shortest possible time, meaning a very thorough planning. Of cos, no help from your higher level alts, no money, not even bags. A game is just a platform, with imagination, you can try out a lot of things for fun. Deletion the alt, if the fun ends up in frustration.
I think the OP has a pont, but was a bit off the mark. Group content is FAR too restrictive in nearly all current games. Requiring a highly specialized group (say a healer, tank, and 3 dps) overshadows any solo content problem. If you want more group content, you shouldn't demand you need a group with X, Y, and Z or you have to play some specialized class for soloing. I agree there should be more group friendly activities, or rather I think the group activities need to be more varied. Doing stuff with a friend or two and no one else should be fun, viable, and provide a real challange. You should also be able to do stuff by yourself if you don't have a friend online. In any case, grouping shouldn't be a requirement, but there should be plenty of stuff to do with a group of any size without obscene restrictions (less tank/healer/dps-based games please) if you are all willing to work together. Make group content a fun choice, rather than something that requires a lot of work and being picky about what class/spec/whatever the person you want to group with has. Personally, I'd like to see a MMO in an extremely large world. Lots of small town and other starting zones. You wouldn't get quests like in WoW, but instead they'd be generated as you traveled around. Go to a farm and someone there might run up to you and ask to help find their daughter or some such, for instance. The quest and bad guys for it get spawned together, and if you are with someone else it takes that into account. If you are alone then the game slowly tries to lead you into stumbling upon someone else on their own quest (where you can join up and work together seemlessly if you wish). Obviously there'd be a lot of contingency issues the game engine would need to handle, but that sort of gameplay would be a lot of fun and immersive. Of course, I'd like to see quests where you could fail and that would have lasting consequences too (daughter can die and stay dead for instance), but that's a side issue as far as grouping goes.
CoV got system generated missions, generated on the fly as you approach an NPC. Newspaper missions they were once called. Unfortunately, randomly generated missions are generally one stop missions, not long story arcs, where you have lore and some twist/plots. As for real challenge, 1 heal 1 tank 3 dps is just a safety net setup. There is no limit on how you form your group, only your resourcefulness and imagination. Take Wow as illustration. We have tried 2 tank groups, 5 paly teams (which actually works very well until we hit the boss) and whatever else. Just ready some repair money when you die.
In a Tank/healer/DPS game, the setup is a saftey net only if the content isn't tuned to be challenging to a tank, healer, and a DPS, or you might overgear or outlevel the content you are working on. That's because if it is a challenge, then you definitely need that healer spamming heals, and the tank taking damage. Though some games have small subversions, like CoH, where you can get by with another strategy. WoW is certainly NOT an example of this however (and 5 pally teams can easily have a healer, tank, and 3 dps for what it is worth, and if you overgear or the content is undertuned then you can handle the inept dps of the second person who is specced tanking). As for CoV, do those randomly generated missions feel unique, or are there just a few different missions with some variations?
5 palies need not be tank heal dps, can be 5 tanks, dps+tanks and so on. The idea is to try it out. Overgearing or not depends on your taste. We once tried doing strat at lvl 80 nake with fists. Fun. I start with skill 1 in hand to hand on my warrior and earn a lot of skills just doing that instance run. The key is, if you want to explore, be ready for surprises, enjoy it and spare some time doing dailies to pay for your gear repair. Or go in nake like I do. It cost nothing if you die nake.
You can't do a 5-man heroic with 5 tanks in WoW. You'll all die. It doesn't matter if they are all pallies. You simply won't have the necessary heals. You can get by with a healer, a tank, and then other roles. More healers and tanks from that point essentially nerfs your DPS (because they do nothing you actually need). If you got some good dps, or the instance has no dps-checks, then you can do fine, but it will be slower. It won't even necessarily be a challenge. You certainly aren't really thinking outside the box. You still need a tank and a healer. Same thing is going on with your warrior who just used fists, he essentially just nerfed the groups dps. You can 4-man a heroic, but you still have to have the healer, the tank, and the other chars who are there to dps (however ineptly).
Originally posted by Orthedos CoV, well its just a standard generic mission generator: 1. go to XXX (location given) and kill the boss inside the instance 2. go to XXX and rescue some NPC, escort her out 3. go to XXX and rob a bank == kill the guards location is random instance, entrance on any random building in the city map, mob type random (some do physical damag, or lethal damage as called in game, others do other types of damange). Is CoV fun? yes very fun for a change in style, fast paced, very different levelling path and loot. The idea that the skill you learn in lvl 1 is still very useful complement at max level, means there is no wasted outdated filler skills. You pick the skill you use till you quit game, as you level up. The planning of your character starts at lvl 1. In WoW only the lvl 80 skills matters, and only the end game gear matters.
Well, I imagine in CoV such missions help further making your lair more interesting. Seems like it would be nice if you also could get a nemisis or other recurring character, but I guess CoH/V hasn't gotten to that point really. (No Lois/Jimmy for your Superman, no Mercy or Superman for your Luther). Still, some randomness is better than none. Adds replayability, I am sure. Seems like they could kick that randomness up a bunch of notches though. Make things a lot more varied.
Originally posted by Orthedos As for the issue of challenge, it can be as challenging as you see fit. Imagine trying to solo an end game dungeon, trying your best to go as far as you can. Imagine 2 team racing to finish an instance as fast as you can. We did racing DM East in the old days, finding ways to skip as many mobs as we can to kill final boss. We can start a race to max lvl an alt (/played). We can start levelling an alt with 2 prof and max out everything in the shortest possible time, meaning a very thorough planning. Of cos, no help from your higher level alts, no money, not even bags. A game is just a platform, with imagination, you can try out a lot of things for fun. Deletion the alt, if the fun ends up in frustration.
Well, making up challenges can be momentarily interesting. That doesn't affect the basic gameplay though (which is what I dislike about WoW). It is away to address a content problem, but it doesn't fix the content problem. Overall, I kinda think Blizzard is too afraid to let its players have any control of the future of the Warcraft Universe, or maybe they just don't understand why players would want to feel important. How they took away the whole Onyxia thing out of an editorial whim doesn't sit particularly well with me.
The problem with yesterdays MMOs is that they had NO soloing options at all. No decent or fun options that is. It isn't a problem now. Every MMO has group options. You just have to choose to use them instead of MIN/MAXing your time played/EXP ratio garbage that was taught to you by those OLDER MMOs. They didn't teach you to play a game to have fun. They programmed you to analize how quickly you can level, since the act of doing it was so mind numbingly tedious and limited, you had no choice. You HAD TO find the right spawn that rewarded you the best for your time to speed up the grind. Bad habits those old MMOs bred into you. You need to erase them from your memory. Now in most MMOs, you just do whatever quest you find fun, kill whatever mob that you can, go to any zone you can survive in, because you'll always advance at a decent pace. You don't need to analyze anything. No need to wait around for help. No sitting in one spot for 4 hrs, pulling and taunting, resting, pull taunting and resting, ad nauseum. You just do what you want to do and have fun. Solo, group, raid, ect. Of course you can still MIN/MAX, but its not neccesary. Eventually if you choose to be the best at a MMO, you will have to group. Its kind of forced upon you IF and only IF your desire to have the best and be the best. If you just want to play and have fun, you can continue to solo or group at your leasure, which is the way it ALWAYS should've been. Grouping is more difficult so it should have better rewards. You shouldn't be screwed though if you don't have the time to find a group, which again is the way it always should've been. Its just far harder and requires more resources to make GOOD content the caters to both playstyles instead of just one, which is why older MMOs only catered to one type of gamer.
Yeah this brings back a lot of old memories, fond and yet sad. I remember EQ, where you need ppl to just about do anything that is non greyed out. Heck, sometimes even a greyed out giant in the desert can kill my warrior, just b/c a warrior do not solo well. A kiter, on the other hand can kite something even level, but takes an hour to do it. I recall FF (damn it); that game is totally crazy. You need a group to do it, you need a group to do just about anything, and its so easy to screw up a group, ppl only follow strict levelling practices. If you decide to go to another zone ppl consider not appropriate for the level, they will discard you or even blacklist you. When I look back at FF now, I begin to wonder, why was it once fun for me? I must be out of my mind then.
I approach MMOs and games now with the idea of fun. I do what I think is fun, just off my head. Its just a 2 hour session of gaming, like poker or chess. It need not have a tomorrow. I can start a lvl 1, play for 2 hours and delete it at the end. I do that a lot with diablo 2, when I am no tour, waiting for the overnight coach or train, at internet cafes. I can keep a max lvl character for furture reuse, one thing I do not want to do in game is workaholics. I am not working my ass off in a game. I do what I want, at the whimp of my wish. So long as I am not affecting other gamer's enjoyment, I feel no responsibility to play my game the way they see fit.
Does this means soloing? Yes and NO. Its soloing in mindset, in that I do what I damn pleased. I can group with people just to talk, I can group with them and raid/quest, clearly stating I only have an hour. I can step in to heal a group whose priest vanished for whatever reason, till they find another healer, find their missing old healer or what not. But the foremost rationale of my existence in the game is, I enjoy it. I will no longer log in to do something because someone rang me up 3am in the morning and say "hey bro, our tank disconnected, and we are staring at the final boss without a tank. Log on and tank for us".
Yes 5 tank instancing amounts to sure death, for even level instances. The point is, if you want to try it out, be ready for repair bills. Apart from repair bills, dying is not an issue in WoW. Dying is a big issue in EQ1, that adds intense moments, as it also adds moments of grief. Why 5 tank instancing? Its coordination, the tanks vigliance each other (spreading damage). The tanks taunts off each other, and trying to kill the mobs before we all run too dangerous low in health. Its just a test of coordination and teamwork. No tears if we wipe. We always wipe one way of another.
CoV missions are a bit more varied that just newspaper random missions. They have some very long story 'arcs" which is a chain of quests, with good stories. I like CoV like I like an odd chinese dimsum. You cannot eat that for lunch everyday, but once in a while, it is very refreshing. CoV everyday means getting bored fast. Well playing the same game everyday will end up like that too, so variety in life helps out.
I understand many ppl have different wishes from games, and no game can deliver everything to everyone. WoW to me is just a platform. Actually one of the new use of WoW to me is babysitting. I log on an alt, let the baby play and before soon he figure out how to jump and move around, and he will yell at the screen "fire", "water", pigs, ... He is only 3 years old, and he figured out a way to enjoy a game. Why can't I? Just b/c I lost the sense of originality and fun as I grew up.
Sometimes it still amazes me that people want to solo in a multiplayer online game. I understand that you get players online that are immature/rude but for the most part I am sure people can find other people to group with and have fun online.
I agree. I understand some solo content for something people to do real quick if they only have a little spare time. I'm absolutely dumbfounded by the people that want the majority of content to be solo content. I mean seriously? These people want to pay monthly for sub-par, brainlessly repetitive content to play by themselves online? Thats just dumb.
and your saying the current end game content offered by most MMOs isn't boringly repetitive?
Yes. Look at WoW, what do you do at endgame? Run the same generic daily quests over and over and over again. Or raid the same couple raids over and over and over again. Or play the same few BG's or Arenas over and over and over again.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
Lmao....Sneakers05 is such an idiot to even consider "too much solo" content. Any game that forces you to group is destined to fail. Many do not want to be forced to group. What a crazy concept.
I have "MMO'd" since 2000 and have belonged to some of the biggest guilds in many of the big games. I currently belong to one of the biggest guilds on EQ2 and can safely say that most truly do NOT enjoy having to group. Yes, there are times when grouping makes all go better, but who wants to play a game that requires you to group in order to progress???
I have been trying to figure why Sneakers05 would have said that in the first place. And my guess is that he is someone who has not figured out how to be successful soloing. Probably someone who is always hoping to be PL'd by someone else in order to make up for his shortcomings. You know, a forever noob. Oh well.
I personally find the greatest challenge is trying to do the quests, etc. by yourself. Sure there are times when you can't do it by yourself. But, it is truly more of a challege when you try. Exceptionally great when you actually complete the quest, mission, etc. by yourself.
'nuff said. Sneakers, I suggest Mario brothers. is very easy!!! Haha
Sometimes it still amazes me that people want to solo in a multiplayer online game. I understand that you get players online that are immature/rude but for the most part I am sure people can find other people to group with and have fun online.
It's a multiplayer game - I'm playing the game with other people whether I use the arbitrary "group" mechanic or not.
And most of the time, the grouping mechanism is so poorly-thought out, it's simply more fun to face the game's challenges alone. Most require a specific group composition, so it's not a metter of just finding someone to group with, it's also a matter of finding someone who is playing the specific role needed for the content, and who also needs someone with the role your own class fills.
You're never really "solo." The other players are there, socialising in the public areas, competing for mobs and resources, and affecting the game's economy. Using them in a poorly-designed "group" system is hardly the only way to encounter other players in an MMO.
Sometimes it still amazes me that people want to solo in a multiplayer online game. I understand that you get players online that are immature/rude but for the most part I am sure people can find other people to group with and have fun online.
I agree. I understand some solo content for something people to do real quick if they only have a little spare time. I'm absolutely dumbfounded by the people that want the majority of content to be solo content. I mean seriously? These people want to pay monthly for sub-par, brainlessly repetitive content to play by themselves online? Thats just dumb.
What makes solo content inherently sub-par, and brainlessly repetitive? I would assume if the developers made solo content as such, the grouping content would be likewise, begging the question: why do you play MMORPGs at all?
I wish there was an mmorpg with the main focus was grouping and exploring. People like to solo and thats fine there should be classes designed for people who like to solo, i think EQ had the best idea with this with the necromancer/Beastmaster. But I find myself lately in every mmorpg getting very bored because I am soloing all the time and when its time to group its either at the very end of the game just raiding the same end content for loot. What ever happened to when mmorpgs were about grouping with others and exploring?
So just because you are bored with solo hunting that means if the rest of us have to suffer when a dev makes it so that the only way we can level is through forced group hunting. Yeah thats real smart, the reason games are striving now is because the devs agree with the majority of us and allowed solo hunting. You want to group hunt? then choose a class that requires a group to hunt with, that is mostly the cleric class(druid warden templar priest) i can guarantee that you will be group hunting for the entire leveling process, and by the time you get to max level you will be wishing that you could of solo hunted with that character.
"Possibly we humans can exist without actually having to fight. But many of us have chosen to fight. For what reason? To protect something? Protect what? Ourselves? The future? If we kill people to protect ourselves and this future, then what sort of future is it, and what will we have become? There is no future for those who have died. And what of those who did the killing? Is happiness to be found in a future that is grasped with blood stained hands? Is that the truth?"
Why should we require grouping over and above soloable content? Why not look for options to group and solo. More options = win win.
Of course, the next issue is, do you have enough social skills to get people to interact with you and play with you, in groups, or chat, or trade or cooperation in any ways, such as complimentary professioinal skills? I do not have problem finding people to play with, in the many games I ever played in my gaming years. Or, maybe I usually left a game before its final decline. Oh well.
I, for one, hate games that forces you to group in order to get anything done. Ganking PVP games (like DF), or totally unsoloable content (EQ1 or FF) are the type of games I will never go back to. I am paying for leisure in my off hours, not paying for another gruesome torture.
Well of course there are people that hate grouping. The current grouping mechanics largely suck. Naturally a number of people will respond to that by wanting little to do with it. That doesn't necessarily mean that they hate the idea of working with others or doing things with others. They might just hate the hassle and clunkiness needed to form a group to handle any challenging content, and dislike how easy the game gets when in a group for other content. It could be some other aspect that they dislike. Of course some people do just want to be by themselves, but your catagories don't distinguish between these two very different sorts of "solo" players.
This is an important observation. There's absolutely no change to grouping dynamics that would get me to spend time in pick-up groups. I've been in Guilds/Corporations/Organizations/Kinships, whatever the game calls them in every MMO I've played, I've engaged in conversation frequently with people I don't know, but my motivation for playing is derived from the pleasure of being self-sufficient, or as close to it as I can manage. In my daily life, I depend on a whole host of people to get my job done, and I like to stand on my own two legs during my leisure time.
It's at this point that someone in these "solo vs. group" conversations usually says "then go play a single-player game." The problem with those is that they end. Usually in about a week. MMOs last for years and years. They have content added monthly (or semi-monthly) by professional game designers. That content goes through (or should go through) rigorous testing before it's launched. Games like Oblivion, while great, have a smattering of quality mods and a seemingly infinite supply of absolute junk. With MMOs, the junk and the gems are largely pre-sorted for you.
Additionally, just because I don't want to group with people doesn't mean I have no interest in interacting with them. I'll sell them my crafted goods, I'll buy their crafted goods, I'll wave to them in passing if I've met them before. I even enjoy watching them as if they were mobile scenery. It's just the combat stuff I do alone. That part is critical, though; if it rained golden rings of supreme leisure whenever I joined a pick-up group, I'd still never join a pick-up group. I'm just not motivated by group challenges, teamwork, or any of the other things groups are normally associated with in this genre. I get it in real life, I want something totally different in the game. I want to do for myself.
So there's that side of things. I applaud people for coming up with ways to make grouping easier and more entertaining, though. While I like to solo and would almost certainly enjoy an online single-player game with monthly story updates, I definitely don't think all games should be built to meet my desires. The biggest problem both sides of the gameplay coin have is that MMOs are so expensive to create these days that the investment groups funding their development want "their" MMOs to go after the entire market, not just one side of it. The result is a compromise that displeases both extremes.
"In the kind-of beginning," there were the biggish three: Everquest for grouping, Asheron's Call for soloing, Ultima Online for a combination of both. Everyone had somewhere to go, even if MUDders weren't sure why anyone would want to pay for an online game at all. Why? It was a niche market. There wasn't a huge amount of money in it, and nobody was really sure what the market for it really was. Over the years, these things have turned into financial juggernauts- they plowed straight into the mainstream. For better or for worse, the extremes are rarely the target demographic for any product whose financial viability is based on mainstream success. I believe the word "mainstream" is translated from the Sanskrit word meaning "everybody but you and me." Sucks to be us. Cheers!
I agree that being solo friendly is somewhat bad for mmo's, but it has good effects as well.
I would like to see solo options, but group content made more rewarding and tempting. Make solo'ing something you only do while LFG, or if you are on at an odd hour and cant find a group.
Grymm MMO addict in recovery! EQ,SWG preCU,L2,EQ2,GW,CoH/CoV,V:SOH, Aion,AoC,TR,WAR,EVE,BP,RIFT,WoW and others... no more!
What most of you that think that the old school MMOs lacked solo is that EQ1 had alot of soloing if you played the right classes.
I could solo just fine with my Necromancer and I did so when I did not feel like grouping but I could always go get an exp group and talk to new people all day aswell which is what most of us want. To have that option again, the option to go group exp hunting instead of the quest grinding. I do not want force grouping nor do I want to play an MMO that turns into a 2nd job. Eq1 never turned into a second job for me, it was always a fun way to get away from the RL stress.
Its not that we old school MMO players want force grouping, we just want grouping to mean something again. In Today's MMO grouping only happens to complete a quest or a instances then its back to solo quest grinding. I want an option to go exp grouping all day and have it make equal amounts of exp as quest grinding. Today quest grinding gives way to much exp for group grinding to make any sense.
What most of you that think that the old school MMOs lacked solo is that EQ1 had alot of soloing if you played the right classes. I could solo just fine with my Necromancer and I did so when I did not feel like grouping but I could always go get an exp group and talk to new people all day aswell which is what most of us want. To have that option again, the option to go group exp hunting instead of the quest grinding. I do not want force grouping nor do I want to play an MMO that turns into a 2nd job. Eq1 never turned into a second job for me, it was always a fun way to get away from the RL stress. Its not that we old school MMO players want force grouping, we just want grouping to mean something again. In Today's MMO grouping only happens to complete a quest or a instances then its back to solo quest grinding. I want an option to go exp grouping all day and have it make equal amounts of exp as quest grinding. Today quest grinding gives way to much exp for group grinding to make any sense.
Why should I have to pick the "right" class to solo when I feel like it? And what year did the Necro come to be? You mention EXP group. There should be no such thing. If you want to group, you go tackle a dungeon and the quests related to it. This is where WOW improved EQ's gameplay. You want to group you do a dungeon or world boss or elite outdoor area. EXP group? That concept needs to die, becauswe it implies MIN/MAXing instead of just "playing".
THis is where WAR and Mythic messed up badly. The made loads of solo content, yet made MASSIVE differences in the speed at which some classes can outlevel others. Its why I quit. I wanted to play a support class and I did, for numerous reasons. Too bad Mythic forgot to tell me almost every other class could kill at almost 3X the rate as a Zealot. Sad. Very sad.
What most of you that think that the old school MMOs lacked solo is that EQ1 had alot of soloing if you played the right classes. I could solo just fine with my Necromancer and I did so when I did not feel like grouping but I could always go get an exp group and talk to new people all day aswell which is what most of us want. To have that option again, the option to go group exp hunting instead of the quest grinding. I do not want force grouping nor do I want to play an MMO that turns into a 2nd job. Eq1 never turned into a second job for me, it was always a fun way to get away from the RL stress. Its not that we old school MMO players want force grouping, we just want grouping to mean something again. In Today's MMO grouping only happens to complete a quest or a instances then its back to solo quest grinding. I want an option to go exp grouping all day and have it make equal amounts of exp as quest grinding. Today quest grinding gives way to much exp for group grinding to make any sense.
Why should I have to pick the "right" class to solo when I feel like it? And what year did the Necro come to be? You mention EXP group. There should be no such thing. If you want to group, you go tackle a dungeon and the quests related to it. This is where WOW improved EQ's gameplay. You want to group you do a dungeon or world boss or elite outdoor area. EXP group? That concept needs to die, becauswe it implies MIN/MAXing instead of just "playing".
THis is where WAR and Mythic messed up badly. The made loads of solo content, yet made MASSIVE differences in the speed at which some classes can outlevel others. Its why I quit. I wanted to play a support class and I did, for numerous reasons. Too bad Mythic forgot to tell me almost every other class could kill at almost 3X the rate as a Zealot. Sad. Very sad.
I mostly agree with you. I think that grouping should aim to be neutral as far experience and challenge. Interacting with others should be its own reward. However, a lot of the current hurdles that exist in grouping need to go away. Right now there's a huge upfront cost to group which makes grouping unnattractive to a lot of people. That cost needs to go waaay, waaay down. Grouping should be very easy to do, and it shouldn't punish you by making it hard, making content trivial, or by reducing your experience. Nor should people feel like they have to group or gimp themselves. In my experience, a lot of people like to group -- I've often grouped up for a bit with people while leveling in WoW, even though you take an experience hit. So the idea of grouping isn't a problem, it's the hassle, quest synching, and other issues that can mess things up.
Originally posted by DoomsDay01Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by TdogSkal
Deeper classes in WoW? This alone makes me think you never played EQ1 a day in your life, the classes in EQ1 had alot more depth then then ones in WoW. You need alot more brain power to figure out raids in EQ then you did in WoW. Try breaking into fear with the average WoW player and tell me that WoW is harder.
Let's compare. I play a Wiz in EQ from beta and a mage in WOW.
In EQ, grinding mob for a wiz is very boring. You essentially root, and nuke. Nothing else. You only use your main nuke and it has a cast time.
In WOW, the mage class has a mix of cast-time nukes, and instances, and also procs. There are also fun spells like mirror image and getting of out a jam spell like invis (i remember you can't use invis in EQ during combat, but that was a while back). In fact, WOW requires the mage to use much more complex spell rotations that EQ.
Oh, and WOW does not require the mage (wiz) to sit there for 10 min after each fight.
You are right in that in combat, root and nuke was the way of the wizard. But for all your "extra" spells in wow, it still boils down to the same thing. You got to use invis to get out of a jam. The eq wiz used root and ran like hell. Same difference. The EQ wiz also got group teleports to spires (an extra way to earn cash from players in game). They also had some teleports to go to the planes that only they could cast to get parties up there. Invis in EQ was much different than in wow. If you had a bad rep in a city, you could use invis to get through that city without getting killed. You dont really have that in wow. What you did in EQ had consequences and serious ones at that. You could get yourself KOS to many cities if you did the wrong things.
You are kidding. It is like saying throwing a fireball is the same as hacking your with sword. That is just strange. Different mage spells have different cool downs, different range, different way of using it.
For example, Arcane Blast stacks to increase dmg/mana cost and can be used to mana dump for some bigger damage. EQ NEVER has mechanics like that for the wizard. I played both for >1 year. They play NIGHT and DAY difference.
EQ Wiz has ONE main nuke, root and that is basically it. WOW mage is 10x deeper with different spell rotations, spells that can be cast while moving, spells that do more dmg in some situation (ice lance does 3x when mob is frozen) .... there are a lot more combo and syneries to play with.
Comments
Everyone that likes grouping games doesn't want to only play FFXI forever, just like everyone that likes solo games doesn't want to play the same game forever.
Everyone that likes grouping games doesn't want to only play FFXI forever, just like everyone that likes solo games doesn't want to play the same game forever.
Ok, let me put this way for you to see. I'm Asheron's Call player and its solo game 95% of the time and I been playing that game from 99' to 06'. I think thats pretty much "forever" in definition. The only reason i quit is because of population and 10 years old graphic otherwise I would be playing it nowadays. They should have plenty time ot make another game like that.
Now for grouping, there is bunch of grouping game nowadays. Where is game like Asheron's Call? ZIP
Kain_Dale
It's all about economics. If people want group games, and pay for group games, then more companies make group games. If people want solo games, and pay for solo games, then more companies make solo games. So if there's a lot of solo-friendly games out there, and you don't like it, blame other players. The companies gotta make a buck, or they won't be able to continue making games. They have to keep their shareholders happy, so they can't spend lots o' cash on a niche game. The companies did their homework, and their target audiences have spoken. Blame the millions of people who religiously play the solo-friendly MMOs.
Kain_Dale
The catagories are bad because it's basically asking the question: How do you feel about the broken group mechanics? Do you want more of them, more solo content, or are you happy?
This is the wrong question to ask (don't take this personally). Anyhow, we certainly are talking about grouping and what might need to get fixed regarding it in current MMOs. Considering the thread title is "problem with todays mmorpgs is too much soloing," then I think discussing the PROBLEMS with grouping mechanics in current MMOs is extremely relevent.
Obviously, I'd disagree - because there have been people posting in this thread that want even more solo content and less grouping (or none at all)...regardless of the mechanics. I agree that a large part of the issue for a more grouping oriented game would be making the grouping mechanics better/easier/more rewarding...but it seems there are still people who would want nothing to do with them. Clearly there are a lot of people who like soloing and see nothing wrong with basically playing an MMO as a single player game all the way to the "raid" or "pvp" content.
Sometimes it still amazes me that people want to solo in a multiplayer online game. I understand that you get players online that are immature/rude but for the most part I am sure people can find other people to group with and have fun online.
I agree. I understand some solo content for something people to do real quick if they only have a little spare time. I'm absolutely dumbfounded by the people that want the majority of content to be solo content. I mean seriously? These people want to pay monthly for sub-par, brainlessly repetitive content to play by themselves online? Thats just dumb.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
The catagories are bad because it's basically asking the question: How do you feel about the broken group mechanics? Do you want more of them, more solo content, or are you happy?
This is the wrong question to ask (don't take this personally). Anyhow, we certainly are talking about grouping and what might need to get fixed regarding it in current MMOs. Considering the thread title is "problem with todays mmorpgs is too much soloing," then I think discussing the PROBLEMS with grouping mechanics in current MMOs is extremely relevent.
Obviously, I'd disagree - because there have been people posting in this thread that want even more solo content and less grouping (or none at all)...regardless of the mechanics. I agree that a large part of the issue for a more grouping oriented game would be making the grouping mechanics better/easier/more rewarding...but it seems there are still people who would want nothing to do with them. Clearly there are a lot of people who like soloing and see nothing wrong with basically playing an MMO as a single player game all the way to the "raid" or "pvp" content.
Well of course there are people that hate grouping. The current grouping mechanics largely suck. Naturally a number of people will respond to that by wanting little to do with it. That doesn't necessarily mean that they hate the idea of working with others or doing things with others. They might just hate the hassle and clunkiness needed to form a group to handle any challenging content, and dislike how easy the game gets when in a group for other content. It could be some other aspect that they dislike. Of course some people do just want to be by themselves, but your catagories don't distinguish between these two very different sorts of "solo" players.
I agree. I understand some solo content for something people to do real quick if they only have a little spare time. I'm absolutely dumbfounded by the people that want the majority of content to be solo content. I mean seriously? These people want to pay monthly for sub-par, brainlessly repetitive content to play by themselves online? Thats just dumb.
and your saying the current end game content offered by most MMOs isn't boringly repetitive?
CoV got system generated missions, generated on the fly as you approach an NPC. Newspaper missions they were once called. Unfortunately, randomly generated missions are generally one stop missions, not long story arcs, where you have lore and some twist/plots.
As for real challenge, 1 heal 1 tank 3 dps is just a safety net setup. There is no limit on how you form your group, only your resourcefulness and imagination. Take Wow as illustration. We have tried 2 tank groups, 5 paly teams (which actually works very well until we hit the boss) and whatever else. Just ready some repair money when you die.
In a Tank/healer/DPS game, the setup is a saftey net only if the content isn't tuned to be challenging to a tank, healer, and a DPS, or you might overgear or outlevel the content you are working on. That's because if it is a challenge, then you definitely need that healer spamming heals, and the tank taking damage. Though some games have small subversions, like CoH, where you can get by with another strategy. WoW is certainly NOT an example of this however (and 5 pally teams can easily have a healer, tank, and 3 dps for what it is worth, and if you overgear or the content is undertuned then you can handle the inept dps of the second person who is specced tanking).
As for CoV, do those randomly generated missions feel unique, or are there just a few different missions with some variations?
5 palies need not be tank heal dps, can be 5 tanks, dps+tanks and so on. The idea is to try it out. Overgearing or not depends on your taste. We once tried doing strat at lvl 80 nake with fists. Fun. I start with skill 1 in hand to hand on my warrior and earn a lot of skills just doing that instance run. The key is, if you want to explore, be ready for surprises, enjoy it and spare some time doing dailies to pay for your gear repair. Or go in nake like I do. It cost nothing if you die nake.
CoV, well its just a standard generic mission generator:
1. go to XXX (location given) and kill the boss inside the instance
2. go to XXX and rescue some NPC, escort her out
3. go to XXX and rob a bank == kill the guards
location is random instance, entrance on any random building in the city map, mob type random (some do physical damag, or lethal damage as called in game, others do other types of damange).
Is CoV fun? yes very fun for a change in style, fast paced, very different levelling path and loot. The idea that the skill you learn in lvl 1 is still very useful complement at max level, means there is no wasted outdated filler skills. You pick the skill you use till you quit game, as you level up. The planning of your character starts at lvl 1. In WoW only the lvl 80 skills matters, and only the end game gear matters.
As for the issue of challenge, it can be as challenging as you see fit. Imagine trying to solo an end game dungeon, trying your best to go as far as you can. Imagine 2 team racing to finish an instance as fast as you can. We did racing DM East in the old days, finding ways to skip as many mobs as we can to kill final boss. We can start a race to max lvl an alt (/played). We can start levelling an alt with 2 prof and max out everything in the shortest possible time, meaning a very thorough planning. Of cos, no help from your higher level alts, no money, not even bags. A game is just a platform, with imagination, you can try out a lot of things for fun. Deletion the alt, if the fun ends up in frustration.
You can't do a 5-man heroic with 5 tanks in WoW. You'll all die. It doesn't matter if they are all pallies. You simply won't have the necessary heals. You can get by with a healer, a tank, and then other roles. More healers and tanks from that point essentially nerfs your DPS (because they do nothing you actually need). If you got some good dps, or the instance has no dps-checks, then you can do fine, but it will be slower. It won't even necessarily be a challenge. You certainly aren't really thinking outside the box. You still need a tank and a healer. Same thing is going on with your warrior who just used fists, he essentially just nerfed the groups dps. You can 4-man a heroic, but you still have to have the healer, the tank, and the other chars who are there to dps (however ineptly).
Well, I imagine in CoV such missions help further making your lair more interesting. Seems like it would be nice if you also could get a nemisis or other recurring character, but I guess CoH/V hasn't gotten to that point really. (No Lois/Jimmy for your Superman, no Mercy or Superman for your Luther). Still, some randomness is better than none. Adds replayability, I am sure. Seems like they could kick that randomness up a bunch of notches though. Make things a lot more varied.
Well, making up challenges can be momentarily interesting. That doesn't affect the basic gameplay though (which is what I dislike about WoW). It is away to address a content problem, but it doesn't fix the content problem. Overall, I kinda think Blizzard is too afraid to let its players have any control of the future of the Warcraft Universe, or maybe they just don't understand why players would want to feel important. How they took away the whole Onyxia thing out of an editorial whim doesn't sit particularly well with me.
Yeah this brings back a lot of old memories, fond and yet sad. I remember EQ, where you need ppl to just about do anything that is non greyed out. Heck, sometimes even a greyed out giant in the desert can kill my warrior, just b/c a warrior do not solo well. A kiter, on the other hand can kite something even level, but takes an hour to do it. I recall FF (damn it); that game is totally crazy. You need a group to do it, you need a group to do just about anything, and its so easy to screw up a group, ppl only follow strict levelling practices. If you decide to go to another zone ppl consider not appropriate for the level, they will discard you or even blacklist you. When I look back at FF now, I begin to wonder, why was it once fun for me? I must be out of my mind then.
I approach MMOs and games now with the idea of fun. I do what I think is fun, just off my head. Its just a 2 hour session of gaming, like poker or chess. It need not have a tomorrow. I can start a lvl 1, play for 2 hours and delete it at the end. I do that a lot with diablo 2, when I am no tour, waiting for the overnight coach or train, at internet cafes. I can keep a max lvl character for furture reuse, one thing I do not want to do in game is workaholics. I am not working my ass off in a game. I do what I want, at the whimp of my wish. So long as I am not affecting other gamer's enjoyment, I feel no responsibility to play my game the way they see fit.
Does this means soloing? Yes and NO. Its soloing in mindset, in that I do what I damn pleased. I can group with people just to talk, I can group with them and raid/quest, clearly stating I only have an hour. I can step in to heal a group whose priest vanished for whatever reason, till they find another healer, find their missing old healer or what not. But the foremost rationale of my existence in the game is, I enjoy it. I will no longer log in to do something because someone rang me up 3am in the morning and say "hey bro, our tank disconnected, and we are staring at the final boss without a tank. Log on and tank for us".
To Drachasor, too long to quote.
Yes 5 tank instancing amounts to sure death, for even level instances. The point is, if you want to try it out, be ready for repair bills. Apart from repair bills, dying is not an issue in WoW. Dying is a big issue in EQ1, that adds intense moments, as it also adds moments of grief. Why 5 tank instancing? Its coordination, the tanks vigliance each other (spreading damage). The tanks taunts off each other, and trying to kill the mobs before we all run too dangerous low in health. Its just a test of coordination and teamwork. No tears if we wipe. We always wipe one way of another.
CoV missions are a bit more varied that just newspaper random missions. They have some very long story 'arcs" which is a chain of quests, with good stories. I like CoV like I like an odd chinese dimsum. You cannot eat that for lunch everyday, but once in a while, it is very refreshing. CoV everyday means getting bored fast. Well playing the same game everyday will end up like that too, so variety in life helps out.
I understand many ppl have different wishes from games, and no game can deliver everything to everyone. WoW to me is just a platform. Actually one of the new use of WoW to me is babysitting. I log on an alt, let the baby play and before soon he figure out how to jump and move around, and he will yell at the screen "fire", "water", pigs, ... He is only 3 years old, and he figured out a way to enjoy a game. Why can't I? Just b/c I lost the sense of originality and fun as I grew up.
I agree. I understand some solo content for something people to do real quick if they only have a little spare time. I'm absolutely dumbfounded by the people that want the majority of content to be solo content. I mean seriously? These people want to pay monthly for sub-par, brainlessly repetitive content to play by themselves online? Thats just dumb.
and your saying the current end game content offered by most MMOs isn't boringly repetitive?
Yes. Look at WoW, what do you do at endgame? Run the same generic daily quests over and over and over again. Or raid the same couple raids over and over and over again. Or play the same few BG's or Arenas over and over and over again.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
Lmao....Sneakers05 is such an idiot to even consider "too much solo" content. Any game that forces you to group is destined to fail. Many do not want to be forced to group. What a crazy concept.
I have "MMO'd" since 2000 and have belonged to some of the biggest guilds in many of the big games. I currently belong to one of the biggest guilds on EQ2 and can safely say that most truly do NOT enjoy having to group. Yes, there are times when grouping makes all go better, but who wants to play a game that requires you to group in order to progress???
I have been trying to figure why Sneakers05 would have said that in the first place. And my guess is that he is someone who has not figured out how to be successful soloing. Probably someone who is always hoping to be PL'd by someone else in order to make up for his shortcomings. You know, a forever noob. Oh well.
I personally find the greatest challenge is trying to do the quests, etc. by yourself. Sure there are times when you can't do it by yourself. But, it is truly more of a challege when you try. Exceptionally great when you actually complete the quest, mission, etc. by yourself.
'nuff said. Sneakers, I suggest Mario brothers. is very easy!!! Haha
It's a multiplayer game - I'm playing the game with other people whether I use the arbitrary "group" mechanic or not.
And most of the time, the grouping mechanism is so poorly-thought out, it's simply more fun to face the game's challenges alone. Most require a specific group composition, so it's not a metter of just finding someone to group with, it's also a matter of finding someone who is playing the specific role needed for the content, and who also needs someone with the role your own class fills.
You're never really "solo." The other players are there, socialising in the public areas, competing for mobs and resources, and affecting the game's economy. Using them in a poorly-designed "group" system is hardly the only way to encounter other players in an MMO.
I agree. I understand some solo content for something people to do real quick if they only have a little spare time. I'm absolutely dumbfounded by the people that want the majority of content to be solo content. I mean seriously? These people want to pay monthly for sub-par, brainlessly repetitive content to play by themselves online? Thats just dumb.
What makes solo content inherently sub-par, and brainlessly repetitive? I would assume if the developers made solo content as such, the grouping content would be likewise, begging the question: why do you play MMORPGs at all?
So just because you are bored with solo hunting that means if the rest of us have to suffer when a dev makes it so that the only way we can level is through forced group hunting. Yeah thats real smart, the reason games are striving now is because the devs agree with the majority of us and allowed solo hunting. You want to group hunt? then choose a class that requires a group to hunt with, that is mostly the cleric class(druid warden templar priest) i can guarantee that you will be group hunting for the entire leveling process, and by the time you get to max level you will be wishing that you could of solo hunted with that character.
"Possibly we humans can exist without actually having to fight. But many of us have chosen to fight. For what reason? To protect something? Protect what? Ourselves? The future? If we kill people to protect ourselves and this future, then what sort of future is it, and what will we have become? There is no future for those who have died. And what of those who did the killing? Is happiness to be found in a future that is grasped with blood stained hands? Is that the truth?"
Why should we require grouping over and above soloable content? Why not look for options to group and solo. More options = win win.
Of course, the next issue is, do you have enough social skills to get people to interact with you and play with you, in groups, or chat, or trade or cooperation in any ways, such as complimentary professioinal skills? I do not have problem finding people to play with, in the many games I ever played in my gaming years. Or, maybe I usually left a game before its final decline. Oh well.
I, for one, hate games that forces you to group in order to get anything done. Ganking PVP games (like DF), or totally unsoloable content (EQ1 or FF) are the type of games I will never go back to. I am paying for leisure in my off hours, not paying for another gruesome torture.
This is an important observation. There's absolutely no change to grouping dynamics that would get me to spend time in pick-up groups. I've been in Guilds/Corporations/Organizations/Kinships, whatever the game calls them in every MMO I've played, I've engaged in conversation frequently with people I don't know, but my motivation for playing is derived from the pleasure of being self-sufficient, or as close to it as I can manage. In my daily life, I depend on a whole host of people to get my job done, and I like to stand on my own two legs during my leisure time.
It's at this point that someone in these "solo vs. group" conversations usually says "then go play a single-player game." The problem with those is that they end. Usually in about a week. MMOs last for years and years. They have content added monthly (or semi-monthly) by professional game designers. That content goes through (or should go through) rigorous testing before it's launched. Games like Oblivion, while great, have a smattering of quality mods and a seemingly infinite supply of absolute junk. With MMOs, the junk and the gems are largely pre-sorted for you.
Additionally, just because I don't want to group with people doesn't mean I have no interest in interacting with them. I'll sell them my crafted goods, I'll buy their crafted goods, I'll wave to them in passing if I've met them before. I even enjoy watching them as if they were mobile scenery. It's just the combat stuff I do alone. That part is critical, though; if it rained golden rings of supreme leisure whenever I joined a pick-up group, I'd still never join a pick-up group. I'm just not motivated by group challenges, teamwork, or any of the other things groups are normally associated with in this genre. I get it in real life, I want something totally different in the game. I want to do for myself.
So there's that side of things. I applaud people for coming up with ways to make grouping easier and more entertaining, though. While I like to solo and would almost certainly enjoy an online single-player game with monthly story updates, I definitely don't think all games should be built to meet my desires. The biggest problem both sides of the gameplay coin have is that MMOs are so expensive to create these days that the investment groups funding their development want "their" MMOs to go after the entire market, not just one side of it. The result is a compromise that displeases both extremes.
"In the kind-of beginning," there were the biggish three: Everquest for grouping, Asheron's Call for soloing, Ultima Online for a combination of both. Everyone had somewhere to go, even if MUDders weren't sure why anyone would want to pay for an online game at all. Why? It was a niche market. There wasn't a huge amount of money in it, and nobody was really sure what the market for it really was. Over the years, these things have turned into financial juggernauts- they plowed straight into the mainstream. For better or for worse, the extremes are rarely the target demographic for any product whose financial viability is based on mainstream success. I believe the word "mainstream" is translated from the Sanskrit word meaning "everybody but you and me." Sucks to be us. Cheers!
I agree that being solo friendly is somewhat bad for mmo's, but it has good effects as well.
I would like to see solo options, but group content made more rewarding and tempting. Make solo'ing something you only do while LFG, or if you are on at an odd hour and cant find a group.
Grymm
MMO addict in recovery!
EQ,SWG preCU,L2,EQ2,GW,CoH/CoV,V:SOH,
Aion,AoC,TR,WAR,EVE,BP,RIFT,WoW and others... no more!
What most of you that think that the old school MMOs lacked solo is that EQ1 had alot of soloing if you played the right classes.
I could solo just fine with my Necromancer and I did so when I did not feel like grouping but I could always go get an exp group and talk to new people all day aswell which is what most of us want. To have that option again, the option to go group exp hunting instead of the quest grinding. I do not want force grouping nor do I want to play an MMO that turns into a 2nd job. Eq1 never turned into a second job for me, it was always a fun way to get away from the RL stress.
Its not that we old school MMO players want force grouping, we just want grouping to mean something again. In Today's MMO grouping only happens to complete a quest or a instances then its back to solo quest grinding. I want an option to go exp grouping all day and have it make equal amounts of exp as quest grinding. Today quest grinding gives way to much exp for group grinding to make any sense.
Sooner or Later
Why should I have to pick the "right" class to solo when I feel like it? And what year did the Necro come to be? You mention EXP group. There should be no such thing. If you want to group, you go tackle a dungeon and the quests related to it. This is where WOW improved EQ's gameplay. You want to group you do a dungeon or world boss or elite outdoor area. EXP group? That concept needs to die, becauswe it implies MIN/MAXing instead of just "playing".
THis is where WAR and Mythic messed up badly. The made loads of solo content, yet made MASSIVE differences in the speed at which some classes can outlevel others. Its why I quit. I wanted to play a support class and I did, for numerous reasons. Too bad Mythic forgot to tell me almost every other class could kill at almost 3X the rate as a Zealot. Sad. Very sad.
Why should I have to pick the "right" class to solo when I feel like it? And what year did the Necro come to be? You mention EXP group. There should be no such thing. If you want to group, you go tackle a dungeon and the quests related to it. This is where WOW improved EQ's gameplay. You want to group you do a dungeon or world boss or elite outdoor area. EXP group? That concept needs to die, becauswe it implies MIN/MAXing instead of just "playing".
THis is where WAR and Mythic messed up badly. The made loads of solo content, yet made MASSIVE differences in the speed at which some classes can outlevel others. Its why I quit. I wanted to play a support class and I did, for numerous reasons. Too bad Mythic forgot to tell me almost every other class could kill at almost 3X the rate as a Zealot. Sad. Very sad.
I mostly agree with you. I think that grouping should aim to be neutral as far experience and challenge. Interacting with others should be its own reward. However, a lot of the current hurdles that exist in grouping need to go away. Right now there's a huge upfront cost to group which makes grouping unnattractive to a lot of people. That cost needs to go waaay, waaay down. Grouping should be very easy to do, and it shouldn't punish you by making it hard, making content trivial, or by reducing your experience. Nor should people feel like they have to group or gimp themselves. In my experience, a lot of people like to group -- I've often grouped up for a bit with people while leveling in WoW, even though you take an experience hit. So the idea of grouping isn't a problem, it's the hassle, quest synching, and other issues that can mess things up.
Let's compare. I play a Wiz in EQ from beta and a mage in WOW.
In EQ, grinding mob for a wiz is very boring. You essentially root, and nuke. Nothing else. You only use your main nuke and it has a cast time.
In WOW, the mage class has a mix of cast-time nukes, and instances, and also procs. There are also fun spells like mirror image and getting of out a jam spell like invis (i remember you can't use invis in EQ during combat, but that was a while back). In fact, WOW requires the mage to use much more complex spell rotations that EQ.
Oh, and WOW does not require the mage (wiz) to sit there for 10 min after each fight.
You are right in that in combat, root and nuke was the way of the wizard. But for all your "extra" spells in wow, it still boils down to the same thing. You got to use invis to get out of a jam. The eq wiz used root and ran like hell. Same difference. The EQ wiz also got group teleports to spires (an extra way to earn cash from players in game). They also had some teleports to go to the planes that only they could cast to get parties up there. Invis in EQ was much different than in wow. If you had a bad rep in a city, you could use invis to get through that city without getting killed. You dont really have that in wow. What you did in EQ had consequences and serious ones at that. You could get yourself KOS to many cities if you did the wrong things.
You are kidding. It is like saying throwing a fireball is the same as hacking your with sword. That is just strange. Different mage spells have different cool downs, different range, different way of using it.
For example, Arcane Blast stacks to increase dmg/mana cost and can be used to mana dump for some bigger damage. EQ NEVER has mechanics like that for the wizard. I played both for >1 year. They play NIGHT and DAY difference.
EQ Wiz has ONE main nuke, root and that is basically it. WOW mage is 10x deeper with different spell rotations, spells that can be cast while moving, spells that do more dmg in some situation (ice lance does 3x when mob is frozen) .... there are a lot more combo and syneries to play with.