What I did when I quit WoW was to go back to A Tale in the Desert, which is a subscription game. I'd later go back to Infantry briefly, which is also a subscription game.
What I did when I quit WoW was to go back to A Tale in the Desert, which is a subscription game. I'd later go back to Infantry briefly, which is also a subscription game.
I meant, that people go back to WoW. A lot. And stay there. Okay, I'm lost now...
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
Originally posted by Goronian Again, no. People will most likely return to WoW, or ignore it altogether. Why? "Because everyone I know plays it". I've seen people [b]openly saying[/b], that they admit, that a lot of other MMOs are [b]better[/b], but they're staying for exactly this reason. It's not about "the other game" being better, it's about "the game experience" (which includes the community). Naturally, you're more inclined to stay in a well-established community; the same is true of any game. You're not going to move to a new game if it has slightly better core mechanics but an entire community filled with morons.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
OP, WoW is no different than Counter Strike was back in it's day, in the FPS genre.
Yeah, every MAINSTREAM loser and his brother played it. And they missed out on most of the genre's best games as a result. They, and their attitude, were shunned and laughed at by the rest of the FPS community...vermin, in every sense of the word.
Just like other MAINSTREAM garbage....pop music, fast food, anorexia, and romantic comedies. It's all garbage. It caters to the low-brow sheeple who are content to follow the path well trodden.
Human lemmings, all.
As these fools chase after the "epic" purple carrot on a sick, those of us who know better point and laugh. We love WoW, but not because we play it. Because it is the human land-fill....it's where the garbage goes, and it keeps the streets cleaner in the games we do play.
A WoW player in another game is like a Brittany Spears fan in a mosh pit.....a couple of loud drunks in your favorite japanese resturaunt...like being served a cup of McDonald's coffee at Starbuck's. They are out of place, disruptive, and simply not wanted. Their very presence lowers the quality of the environment.
We've got them all on an island....now if we can just figure out how to nuke it.
Originally posted by Quizzical
If you don't like some types of people who play MMORPGs, then what's so bad about some games disproportionately sucking up those types of people? That leaves fewer of them in other games, and you can go play those other games.
True, in a way. But think about this - movies, music and regular games cost musch less to produce, than MMOs. With risks this high, some studios (and, quite likely, a lot of them) will stop chasing the fabled "carrot" of several million (even several thousands) subscribers and either do lackluster F2P games or stop doing MMOs altogether.
Yeah....and ya ever think maybe these companies are investing TOO much money in something solely in the hopes of netting the WoW crowd?? It's not going to happen. The people playing WoW aren't going to go to another game that's exactly the same thing under a different title...especially when their friends and established characters are back in WoW.
I hate to tell you this, but back in teh day companies didn't spend millions developing an MMORPG....but those games still did fine, and were of higher quality than the GARBAGE that's being churned out today.
Smaller game studios are the future of the genre, man. Small companies making games for the sake of gaming....not to try to cash in on the percieved "success" of WoW.
And the major companies need to realise that a game has to stand on it's own merits...not rely on recycled concepts and an inflated advertising budget.
Smaller companies usually turn into unpolished laggy "FreeToPee"s. Yes, there are a lot of good F2Ps. Hell, MUDs, are probably MMO gaming at it's best. Bet let's be serious... Sometimes you want the game to look good, play good [b]and[/b] be innovative. Although, I still can see, where you're going with this.
Now, now...don't confuse the F2P item-mall grinders for a legitimate, quality MMO. Those are churned out primarily by asian companies trying to skip the middle-man of gold-farmers / sellers by simply offering in-game items for cash. A totally different thing.
Let's instead remeber games like AC, AO, DAoC, Neocron, and even EQ....there as no WoW to compete with in those days...no magic 11 million subs to try to acquire.
And newer games, such as Spellborn, and even Darkfall. Games designed to be fun in their own way, on their own merits, and obviously not trying to acquire wow-like subs. I've never played Darkfall personally, but I can tell you that Spellborn looks and plays like a quality game....and in fact it is. And it didn't take the budget of a small country to make.
We have a lot of games in development, and more and more I see companies veering away from the cash-grab, and just trying to make a good game. Bravo!
Again, yes... But consider this - hyow many of the better ones can actually hold their subscriber base long enough? And what exactly holds it? Polish? Features? Difficulty? Darkfall seems like a good game, but chances of it becoming obscure oddity, rather, than a semi-popular geekvana are quite high.
Spellborn is fun, in it's own right, but combat system is... Distracting, rather then enhancing, to say the list. Still, it's one of a few games, I want to stay on pulse of.
Well, it will need to be a combination of things...one good aspect isn't going to be enough to keep people playing for the long haul.
Polish, for sure....no one wants to play a buggy game with stiff animation. Character creation and customisation needs to be versatile, and each player must be able to look quite unique.
As for actual features....well, I could tell you what I look for in a game, but that would just be me spouting off my personal opinion...and there are 100000 threads like that on this site. Suffice to say that a game needs to offer a range of activities, and a sense of "ownership", or belonging. Players will tend to stay longer if they feel that they are part of the world...not just visitors.
And on that note....the game needs to HAVE a world. Not just a sequence of linear zones filled with scripted, guided events. Too many MMOs have been made recently that are basically single player games with a chat box.
See, a good mix I think would be to have plenty of quests and activities that one can do alone, when there is no time for a group. Quests that take the faction, and even class of the player into account. Why would a thief character want to return widow npc's stolen purse from teh thugs down the street?? How about instead being tasked by the underworld bosses to sneak into a museum and acquire a rare item? let people PLAY their role, instead of it just defining what skills they get, and what gear they wear.
And let's skip the group quests that sit in your quest log forever, and instead use a form of dynamically generated group content...like a faction-based mission system. Think of an expanded, modernized version of AO's mission system.
This way groups can come together for the sake of group content, and STAY together after the quest is over to do another...not just disband once that abberation in the quest log is finally removed.
let's think about what's been done WRONG, instead of trying to copy the "magical success formula". Give players a game that soothes the burn-out, and offers a solution to the weaknesses of the genre.
OP, WoW is no different than Counter Strike was back in it's day, in the FPS genre.
Yeah, every MAINSTREAM loser and his brother played it. And they missed out on most of the genre's best games as a result. They, and their attitude, were shunned and laughed at by the rest of the FPS community...vermin, in every sense of the word.
Just like other MAINSTREAM garbage....pop music, fast food, anorexia, and romantic comedies. It's all garbage. It caters to the low-brow sheeple who are content to follow the path well trodden.
Human lemmings, all.
As these fools chase after the "epic" purple carrot on a sick, those of us who know better point and laugh. We love WoW, but not because we play it. Because it is the human land-fill....it's where the garbage goes, and it keeps the streets cleaner in the games we do play.
A WoW player in another game is like a Brittany Spears fan in a mosh pit.....a couple of loud drunks in your favorite japanese resturaunt...like being served a cup of McDonald's coffee at Starbuck's. They are out of place, disruptive, and simply not wanted. Their very presence lowers the quality of the environment.
We've got them all on an island....now if we can just figure out how to nuke it.
Originally posted by Quizzical
If you don't like some types of people who play MMORPGs, then what's so bad about some games disproportionately sucking up those types of people? That leaves fewer of them in other games, and you can go play those other games.
True, in a way. But think about this - movies, music and regular games cost musch less to produce, than MMOs. With risks this high, some studios (and, quite likely, a lot of them) will stop chasing the fabled "carrot" of several million (even several thousands) subscribers and either do lackluster F2P games or stop doing MMOs altogether.
Yeah....and ya ever think maybe these companies are investing TOO much money in something solely in the hopes of netting the WoW crowd?? It's not going to happen. The people playing WoW aren't going to go to another game that's exactly the same thing under a different title...especially when their friends and established characters are back in WoW.
I hate to tell you this, but back in teh day companies didn't spend millions developing an MMORPG....but those games still did fine, and were of higher quality than the GARBAGE that's being churned out today.
Smaller game studios are the future of the genre, man. Small companies making games for the sake of gaming....not to try to cash in on the percieved "success" of WoW.
And the major companies need to realise that a game has to stand on it's own merits...not rely on recycled concepts and an inflated advertising budget.
Smaller companies usually turn into unpolished laggy "FreeToPee"s. Yes, there are a lot of good F2Ps. Hell, MUDs, are probably MMO gaming at it's best. Bet let's be serious... Sometimes you want the game to look good, play good [b]and[/b] be innovative. Although, I still can see, where you're going with this.
Now, now...don't confuse the F2P item-mall grinders for a legitimate, quality MMO. Those are churned out primarily by asian companies trying to skip the middle-man of gold-farmers / sellers by simply offering in-game items for cash. A totally different thing.
Let's instead remeber games like AC, AO, DAoC, Neocron, and even EQ....there as no WoW to compete with in those days...no magic 11 million subs to try to acquire.
And newer games, such as Spellborn, and even Darkfall. Games designed to be fun in their own way, on their own merits, and obviously not trying to acquire wow-like subs. I've never played Darkfall personally, but I can tell you that Spellborn looks and plays like a quality game....and in fact it is. And it didn't take the budget of a small country to make.
We have a lot of games in development, and more and more I see companies veering away from the cash-grab, and just trying to make a good game. Bravo!
Again, yes... But consider this - hyow many of the better ones can actually hold their subscriber base long enough? And what exactly holds it? Polish? Features? Difficulty? Darkfall seems like a good game, but chances of it becoming obscure oddity, rather, than a semi-popular geekvana are quite high.
Spellborn is fun, in it's own right, but combat system is... Distracting, rather then enhancing, to say the list. Still, it's one of a few games, I want to stay on pulse of.
Well, it will need to be a combination of things...one good aspect isn't going to be enough to keep people playing for the long haul.
Polish, for sure....no one wants to play a buggy game with stiff animation. Character creation and customisation needs to be versatile, and each player must be able to look quite unique.
As for actual features....well, I could tell you what I look for in a game, but that would just be me spouting off my personal opinion...and there are 100000 threads like that on this site. Suffice to say that a game needs to offer a range of activities, and a sense of "ownership", or belonging. Players will tend to stay longer if they feel that they are part of the world...not just visitors.
And on that note....the game needs to HAVE a world. Not just a sequence of linear zones filled with scripted, guided events. Too many MMOs have been made recently that are basically single player games with a chat box.
See, a good mix I think would be to have plenty of quests and activities that one can do alone, when there is no time for a group. Quests that take the faction, and even class of the player into account. Why would a thief character want to return widow npc's stolen purse from teh thugs down the street?? How about instead being tasked by the underworld bosses to sneak into a museum and acquire a rare item? let people PLAY their role, instead of it just defining what skills they get, and what gear they wear.
And let's skip the group quests that sit in your quest log forever, and instead use a form of dynamically generated group content...like a faction-based mission system. Think of an expanded, modernized version of AO's mission system.
This way groups can come together for the sake of group content, and STAY together after the quest is over to do another...not just disband once that abberation in the quest log is finally removed.
let's think about what's been done WRONG, instead of trying to copy the "magical success formula". Give players a game that soothes the burn-out, and offers a solution to the weaknesses of the genre.
I dont know why im quoting you guys cause thats like a book ^^
OP, WoW is no different than Counter Strike was back in it's day, in the FPS genre.
Yeah, every MAINSTREAM loser and his brother played it. And they missed out on most of the genre's best games as a result. They, and their attitude, were shunned and laughed at by the rest of the FPS community...vermin, in every sense of the word.
Just like other MAINSTREAM garbage....pop music, fast food, anorexia, and romantic comedies. It's all garbage. It caters to the low-brow sheeple who are content to follow the path well trodden.
Human lemmings, all.
As these fools chase after the "epic" purple carrot on a sick, those of us who know better point and laugh. We love WoW, but not because we play it. Because it is the human land-fill....it's where the garbage goes, and it keeps the streets cleaner in the games we do play.
A WoW player in another game is like a Brittany Spears fan in a mosh pit.....a couple of loud drunks in your favorite japanese resturaunt...like being served a cup of McDonald's coffee at Starbuck's. They are out of place, disruptive, and simply not wanted. Their very presence lowers the quality of the environment.
We've got them all on an island....now if we can just figure out how to nuke it.
Originally posted by Quizzical
If you don't like some types of people who play MMORPGs, then what's so bad about some games disproportionately sucking up those types of people? That leaves fewer of them in other games, and you can go play those other games.
True, in a way. But think about this - movies, music and regular games cost musch less to produce, than MMOs. With risks this high, some studios (and, quite likely, a lot of them) will stop chasing the fabled "carrot" of several million (even several thousands) subscribers and either do lackluster F2P games or stop doing MMOs altogether.
Yeah....and ya ever think maybe these companies are investing TOO much money in something solely in the hopes of netting the WoW crowd?? It's not going to happen. The people playing WoW aren't going to go to another game that's exactly the same thing under a different title...especially when their friends and established characters are back in WoW.
I hate to tell you this, but back in teh day companies didn't spend millions developing an MMORPG....but those games still did fine, and were of higher quality than the GARBAGE that's being churned out today.
Smaller game studios are the future of the genre, man. Small companies making games for the sake of gaming....not to try to cash in on the percieved "success" of WoW.
And the major companies need to realise that a game has to stand on it's own merits...not rely on recycled concepts and an inflated advertising budget.
Smaller companies usually turn into unpolished laggy "FreeToPee"s. Yes, there are a lot of good F2Ps. Hell, MUDs, are probably MMO gaming at it's best. Bet let's be serious... Sometimes you want the game to look good, play good [b]and[/b] be innovative. Although, I still can see, where you're going with this.
Now, now...don't confuse the F2P item-mall grinders for a legitimate, quality MMO. Those are churned out primarily by asian companies trying to skip the middle-man of gold-farmers / sellers by simply offering in-game items for cash. A totally different thing.
Let's instead remeber games like AC, AO, DAoC, Neocron, and even EQ....there as no WoW to compete with in those days...no magic 11 million subs to try to acquire.
And newer games, such as Spellborn, and even Darkfall. Games designed to be fun in their own way, on their own merits, and obviously not trying to acquire wow-like subs. I've never played Darkfall personally, but I can tell you that Spellborn looks and plays like a quality game....and in fact it is. And it didn't take the budget of a small country to make.
We have a lot of games in development, and more and more I see companies veering away from the cash-grab, and just trying to make a good game. Bravo!
Wait wait......you think that "companies veering away from the cash-grab and just just trying to make a good game'?
So to paraphrase, you think that gaming companies are not motivated by profit?
Wait wait......you think that "companies veering away from the cash-grab and just just trying to make a good game'? So to paraphrase, you think that gaming companies are not motivated by profit? What color is the sky in your world?
there is a big difference between profit and greed, as a motivation. Those who absurdly think they can land 11 million subs with their new, shiny wow-clone are greedy...those who think that they can make more than their operating cost and thus make a profit are not.
If your point is that players will return to WoW from a newer game that they don't find fun .. well that's a no-brainer. Of course they will. If a new game doesn't hold their interest, they'll go back to a game that does. If your point is that players will return to WoW from a newer game that they do find fun .. that's just a ridiculous argument. There's no deep mystery about this; people will play the game that they find the most fun.
While that is logical, its not entirely true. Perhaps the biggest aspect of MMOs in general is the community, and the sub communities you attach yourself to. When most people get older and move out from their family, they don't move clear across the country. They tend to settle in the same area as the family.
WoW, has ingeniously made itself the lowest common denominator, like the earlier posters pointed out everyone plays WoW. Everyone and their mother, their sister, their uncle, their best friend, their rival, their first prostitute, and their potential new Real Life friends. Once people are so interconnected like that, the community/sub-community becomes rather deep rooted and it is incredibly difficult to leave for long periods of time. So, people leave to a game they find "more fun" only to return to WoW, because all of their friends and family play it.
Originally posted by Wharg0ul There is quite a large difference between a personal insult (and one wide from teh mark at that) and a distainful generalisation of a group of people who masterbate to their own naked game characters, while bunny hopping in circles spewing inanities such as "WTFPWNTURMOM", and can't even be bothered to spell a three letter word. No, there really isn't a difference. It's an interesting weirdness that (some) people seem to think that insulting 12 million people at once is somehow less offensive than merely insulting one. Never been able to fathom that; if I'm going to level an insult, I'll aim it at someone who deserves it rather than hide it in a generalisation. Seems cowardly. These people have EARNED the reputation they have. Calling a kettle black is no fault of the beholder. It is merely a statement of the observed facts. There is only one question that needs to be asked; have you met all 12 million WoW players? If the answer is no, then your "statement of the observed facts" is merely a generalisation based on fragmented experiences of maybe a few WoW players who've annoying you in the past. The very definition of the word ignorant.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Well, it will need to be a combination of things...one good aspect isn't going to be enough to keep people playing for the long haul.
Polish, for sure....no one wants to play a buggy game with stiff animation. Character creation and customisation needs to be versatile, and each player must be able to look quite unique.
As for actual features....well, I could tell you what I look for in a game, but that would just be me spouting off my personal opinion...and there are 100000 threads like that on this site. Suffice to say that a game needs to offer a range of activities, and a sense of "ownership", or belonging. Players will tend to stay longer if they feel that they are part of the world...not just visitors.
And on that note....the game needs to HAVE a world. Not just a sequence of linear zones filled with scripted, guided events. Too many MMOs have been made recently that are basically single player games with a chat box.
See, a good mix I think would be to have plenty of quests and activities that one can do alone, when there is no time for a group. Quests that take the faction, and even class of the player into account. Why would a thief character want to return widow npc's stolen purse from teh thugs down the street?? How about instead being tasked by the underworld bosses to sneak into a museum and acquire a rare item? let people PLAY their role, instead of it just defining what skills they get, and what gear they wear.
And let's skip the group quests that sit in your quest log forever, and instead use a form of dynamically generated group content...like a faction-based mission system. Think of an expanded, modernized version of AO's mission system.
This way groups can come together for the sake of group content, and STAY together after the quest is over to do another...not just disband once that abberation in the quest log is finally removed.
let's think about what's been done WRONG, instead of trying to copy the "magical success formula". Give players a game that soothes the burn-out, and offers a solution to the weaknesses of the genre.
Now, if only developers could see into our heads...
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
If your point is that players will return to WoW from a newer game that they don't find fun .. well that's a no-brainer. Of course they will. If a new game doesn't hold their interest, they'll go back to a game that does. If your point is that players will return to WoW from a newer game that they do find fun .. that's just a ridiculous argument. There's no deep mystery about this; people will play the game that they find the most fun.
While that is logical, its not entirely true. Perhaps the biggest aspect of MMOs in general is the community, and the sub communities you attach yourself to. When most people get older and move out from their family, they don't move clear across the country. They tend to settle in the same area as the family.
WoW, has ingeniously made itself the lowest common denominator, like the earlier posters pointed out everyone plays WoW. Everyone and their mother, their sister, their uncle, their best friend, their rival, their first prostitute, and their potential new Real Life friends. Once people are so interconnected like that, the community/sub-community becomes rather deep rooted and it is incredibly difficult to leave for long periods of time. So, people leave to a game they find "more fun" only to return to WoW, because all of their friends and family play it.
Finally someone sees my point. THIS can be MMORPGs downfall.
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
While that is logical, its not entirely true. Perhaps the biggest aspect of MMOs in general is the community, and the sub communities you attach yourself to. When most people get older and move out from their family, they don't move clear across the country. They tend to settle in the same area as the family. WoW, has ingeniously made itself the lowest common denominator, like the earlier posters pointed out everyone plays WoW. Everyone and their mother, their sister, their uncle, their best friend, their rival, their first prostitute, and their potential new Real Life friends. Once people are so interconnected like that, the community/sub-community becomes rather deep rooted and it is incredibly difficult to leave for long periods of time. So, people leave to a game they find "more fun" only to return to WoW, because all of their friends and family play it.
OK, after reading the "quote-train" I will make comments with the least amount of quotes possible. I left Kaisen_Dexx's up because his 2nd paragraph really hits home. The "bouncing-back" that was referred to all throughout the thread is directly related to my RL and online friends.
One of the downsides that was discussed was Blizzard's game-changing patches. This is nothing new to WoW, and was actually done quite well in Diablo 2 (Think it was the 1.10 synergy patch?). But these changes stir up people's curiosities, just like expansions do. And when me and my friends are happily playing L4D or TF2 and they get wind of a new WoW patch that will change the face of the game they celebrate like its the 4th of July.
Goronian I know that your OP said basically the same thing but Kaisen's took up less space
I find it really funny the self-hate that MMO players exhibit. Maybe not self-hate, but saying things that they dislike about game X, that also applies to game Y. But game X they hate and game Y they like. It makes no sense. I believe someones "epic-carrot-on-a-stick" made me think about this.
MMOs never have forced anyone to do... anything. You could log in and fish for a living, whatever. But the whole idea of progression and getting phat lewts is entrenched deep within the recesses of the D&D and RPG experience. The definition of irony should be a person who plays MMORPGs.
I also see a lot of people hating a game just because its popular. I will also assume these are the same people who hated their classmates because they were "more popular".
Someone made a good analogy to Counter-Strike taking over the FPS world and getting all the casual gamers into the genre and #@$%-blocking all other games. I do like the analogy to FPS as a genre. This does lend hope to MMORGPs because look at the different (and successful) FPS games that still are being made like L4D, TF2, and <insertRandomWarGame>. So maybe eventually even WoW's stranglehold could be broken.
Wharg0ul said that smaller game companies are our future and I wholeheartedly agree. It may be niche markets with only a few thousand players on a single server, but this is what I would hope the future will bring. Now with what was already discussed with the social draw of having friends play the same game this may not be able to take root with the Behemoth of WoW staring over the masses. This is working for single player games though (think world of goo).
Lastly Goronian, you mentioned that it would be great if developers could see into our heads. I'm torn on this. As a group of players, MMORPG players seem to be the most confused about what they would like to see in a game. Most want to see stuff thats already in games that they have played and stopped playing for reasons X,Y and Z. But also I sometimes have good ideas (or I'd like to think so) for MMORPGs. I think if developers could read the minds of their players they wouldn't be able to weed out enough of the garbage to make sense of it...
Oh and Goronian... your avatar freaks me out.
*edit* my attempts at creating paragraphs in this god-awful forum text-editor just made things worse...
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
and because these recent MMOs have gone the single player route, they can never form a strong community.
WoW was the first to make MMOs easy, therefore everyone and their mother plays it. It's community is based on the fact that it was the first to make it easy so everyone flocked to it.
These new games try to make it even EASIER and MORE solo, but it doesn't have the capability of getting everyone and their mother to play, cuz your old friends are still in WoW. Like was stated before, "why leave what your comfortable with?" is one of the biggest reasons these people don't leave.
So what needs to happen is these new games need to become more based on community building. Group quests should be plentiful and should offer a fun experience that you would want to repeat. There should be a common goal for each faction and it should require a lot of community work to accomplish. There should be a level-scaling ability so you can help out your lowbie friends (or go skill based, w/e). There should be tangible rewards for helping lowbies (money, access to new mounts, some fluff items). Give people a piece of the world that they can conquer for their guild and friends.
Making connections is what forms a real community. Solo based games are just not going to cut it anymore. You want a successful MMO? Make people talk and interact and form relationships with other people.
Haven't you ever wondered why RP servers have thrived in these new MMOs compared to other servers in the game?
Cimmeria in Age of Conan, Pheonix Throne in WAR, Landrovel (SP?) server in LotRO, Moon Guard in WoW.
Age of Conan had server mergers and Cimmeria only had to be merged with one server, and it was a very low pop server.
Pheonix Throne has an extremely active RP community even after the rather shaky launch.
Landrovel is renowned for it's mature and active RP community. It isn't the largest server, but it's definitely up there.
I grew up with Moon Guard. It was my first RP server. When I joined it had a medium level pop. When I left WoW it was so crowded that they offered transfers off. The ques are enormous and the only thing that saved it from over-population would be the new RP server Wyrmrest Accord which also has an extremely active RP community.
connections, connections, connections. That is what will keep people paying every month.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Guys! I'm hopelessly lost in a mountain of mole hills! Them damn moles!
I wont quote your entire post, as it was a bit long. You mentioned a few things about MMO players not know what they want this is entirely true. Games were much better back in the day when developers made the game that THEY liked. In this day in age developers are trying to appease far too many people and all it ends up doing is alienating both audiences and created a mash of incoherent ideas.
Oh and also, I hated my class because they were a bunch of drunken pricks that were more than happy to chum with you for answers on the next exam. So that is close to why I loathe WoW I guess.
It's a Jeep thing. . . _______ |___| \_______/ = |||||| = |X| \*........*/ |X| |X|_________|X| You wouldn't understand
While that is logical, its not entirely true. Perhaps the biggest aspect of MMOs in general is the community, and the sub communities you attach yourself to. When most people get older and move out from their family, they don't move clear across the country. They tend to settle in the same area as the family. WoW, has ingeniously made itself the lowest common denominator, like the earlier posters pointed out everyone plays WoW. Everyone and their mother, their sister, their uncle, their best friend, their rival, their first prostitute, and their potential new Real Life friends. Once people are so interconnected like that, the community/sub-community becomes rather deep rooted and it is incredibly difficult to leave for long periods of time. So, people leave to a game they find "more fun" only to return to WoW, because all of their friends and family play it.
OK, after reading the "quote-train" I will make comments with the least amount of quotes possible. I left Kaisen_Dexx's up because his 2nd paragraph really hits home. The "bouncing-back" that was referred to all throughout the thread is directly related to my RL and online friends.
One of the downsides that was discussed was Blizzard's game-changing patches. This is nothing new to WoW, and was actually done quite well in Diablo 2 (Think it was the 1.10 synergy patch?). But these changes stir up people's curiosities, just like expansions do. And when me and my friends are happily playing L4D or TF2 and they get wind of a new WoW patch that will change the face of the game they celebrate like its the 4th of July.
Goronian I know that your OP said basically the same thing but Kaisen's took up less space
I find it really funny the self-hate that MMO players exhibit. Maybe not self-hate, but saying things that they dislike about game X, that also applies to game Y. But game X they hate and game Y they like. It makes no sense. I believe someones "epic-carrot-on-a-stick" made me think about this.
MMOs never have forced anyone to do... anything. You could log in and fish for a living, whatever. But the whole idea of progression and getting phat lewts is entrenched deep within the recesses of the D&D and RPG experience. The definition of irony should be a person who plays MMORPGs.
I also see a lot of people hating a game just because its popular. I will also assume these are the same people who hated their classmates because they were "more popular".
Someone made a good analogy to Counter-Strike taking over the FPS world and getting all the casual gamers into the genre and #@$%-blocking all other games. I do like the analogy to FPS as a genre. This does lend hope to MMORGPs because look at the different (and successful) FPS games that still are being made like L4D, TF2, and <insertRandomWarGame>. So maybe eventually even WoW's stranglehold could be broken.
Wharg0ul said that smaller game companies are our future and I wholeheartedly agree. It may be niche markets with only a few thousand players on a single server, but this is what I would hope the future will bring. Now with what was already discussed with the social draw of having friends play the same game this may not be able to take root with the Behemoth of WoW staring over the masses. This is working for single player games though (think world of goo).
Lastly Goronian, you mentioned that it would be great if developers could see into our heads. I'm torn on this. As a group of players, MMORPG players seem to be the most confused about what they would like to see in a game. Most want to see stuff thats already in games that they have played and stopped playing for reasons X,Y and Z. But also I sometimes have good ideas (or I'd like to think so) for MMORPGs. I think if developers could read the minds of their players they wouldn't be able to weed out enough of the garbage to make sense of it...
Oh and Goronian... your avatar freaks me out.
*edit* my attempts at creating paragraphs in this god-awful forum text-editor just made things worse...
What? It's Jon Van Caneghem, for Sandrossake.
The "heads" comment was mostly ironic.
And I've mentioned before - while small-time companies MIGHT make good (and lively) MMOs, they will never breach WoW's fortress, simply because it needs another high-rank release. Which are costly, even compared to other games, like FPSes. Which won't sucsseed anyway, because of "well, more of peers play WoW, why bother with the new one?". WoW wil either stay forever, or wither and die under its own weight some time in the future. '
But your post still gave me hope. Maybe we can survive in the niches...
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
OP, WoW is no different than Counter Strike was back in it's day, in the FPS genre. Yeah, every MAINSTREAM loser and his brother played it. And they missed out on most of the genre's best games as a result. They, and their attitude, were shunned and laughed at by the rest of the FPS community...vermin, in every sense of the word. Just like other MAINSTREAM garbage....pop music, fast food, anorexia, and romantic comedies. It's all garbage. It caters to the low-brow sheeple who are content to follow the path well trodden. Human lemmings, all. As these fools chase after the "epic" purple carrot on a sick, those of us who know better point and laugh. We love WoW, but not because we play it. Because it is the human land-fill....it's where the garbage goes, and it keeps the streets cleaner in the games we do play. A WoW player in another game is like a Brittany Spears fan in a mosh pit.....a couple of loud drunks in your favorite japanese resturaunt...like being served a cup of McDonald's coffee at Starbuck's. They are out of place, disruptive, and simply not wanted. Their very presence lowers the quality of the environment. We've got them all on an island....now if we can just figure out how to nuke it.
Such typical "elitist" garbage. Your music sucks because everyone likes it, mine is better because no one is listening! Your shoes suck because everyone has those, I wear hemp shoes! This game sucks because everyone is playing it, I prefer to play only real games that less than 2,000 play worldwide! The cool crownd sucks.....gaaaaaaaaah!
You are the man because you don't "follow the carrot on a stick" gameplay!
Give me a break bro. This type of post is so demeaning......to your own intelligence. So pathetic. I nominate that for worst post of the year.
To the OP, saying that people will stop trying to create great MMO's because they are worried everyone will just go back to WoW is totally absurd. That crowd, that they have CREATED based on the game they CREATED, is the ultimate carrot on a stick for any other developer. That is why so many MMO's are in development with such huge budgets being thrown around. It's the cash-cow prize of gaming that everyone wants in on, it's just that they are so damn hard to make well.
And to your other point, about not liking the people.....? Then why play an MMO at all? If you have any experience in the world, you know the Public sucks in general. And the bigger your pool of people to look at, the worse it gets. I have been an MMO player from the start, way before your entry with Wow, and there definitely was a feeling in UO that we had this big "secret", this amazing game that no one knew about. Those days are gone brother, and any great game is going to have a lot of people playing it which will equal a lot of douches playing it. That's life. Play with your friends, get a good guild, and then crush those douches (if the game has pvp that is.....=)).
Originally posted by Goronian It's not the fact, that people bounce. It's the fact, that people bounce, and then still return to WoW. There's a reason for that; it's actually a very fun game if you're an average player. It's important to define what the average player is at this point; studies have shown that: The average age is 25-30 years old.
The average MMOGer is in full time employment/education. (only 10% are unemployed)
The average hours per week is 22.
22 hours is not a vast amount of time; and WoW easily has enough content to ensure that anyone playing 22 hours a week will be able to do so for a long time before the burn-out sets in.
The problem is with the people, but it's not with the average gamer .. it's with those on the fringes; the minorities who seem to feel that the genre should change to reflect their preferences rather than the majority. It's egotistical, ridiculous, and clearly not going to happen. While the "l33t k1d5" like Wharg0ul delight in looking down on WoW because it's not a hardcore game, they are merely another minority and are best left to fester in their own pit of resentment at the genre that left them behind.
WTF, man?? Why the cheap shot?
I'm a 36 year old father, a mature adult....but because I don't subscribe to WoW I'm a "l33t k1d"??
Grow the fuck up.
Go back and read your original post... Then take your own advise. I'm always amused by the anti WoW hysterics. Lord knows WoW is far from perfect(its flaws are legion) but it IS the most successful and profitable MMO in history. Its also a fairly good game, until one hits level cap. You want to see a room full of investors go all bug eyed and start throwing truck loads of money at you? Intone the mystic phrase "Its just like World of Warcraft".
And I've mentioned before - while small-time companies MIGHT make good (and lively) MMOs, they will never breach WoW's fortress, simply because it needs another high-rank release. Which are costly, even compared to other games, like FPSes. Which won't sucsseed anyway, because of "well, more of peers play WoW, why bother with the new one?". WoW wil either stay forever, or wither and die under its own weight some time in the future. '
But your post still gave me hope. Maybe we can survive in the niches...
I'm not that keen on remembering what my game developers names are, nevermind their likeness. Anyways from this thread I believe this would be a more fitting avatar for you.
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
OP, WoW is no different than Counter Strike was back in it's day, in the FPS genre. Yeah, every MAINSTREAM loser and his brother played it. And they missed out on most of the genre's best games as a result. They, and their attitude, were shunned and laughed at by the rest of the FPS community...vermin, in every sense of the word. Just like other MAINSTREAM garbage....pop music, fast food, anorexia, and romantic comedies. It's all garbage. It caters to the low-brow sheeple who are content to follow the path well trodden. Human lemmings, all. As these fools chase after the "epic" purple carrot on a sick, those of us who know better point and laugh. We love WoW, but not because we play it. Because it is the human land-fill....it's where the garbage goes, and it keeps the streets cleaner in the games we do play. A WoW player in another game is like a Brittany Spears fan in a mosh pit.....a couple of loud drunks in your favorite japanese resturaunt...like being served a cup of McDonald's coffee at Starbuck's. They are out of place, disruptive, and simply not wanted. Their very presence lowers the quality of the environment. We've got them all on an island....now if we can just figure out how to nuke it.
OP, WoW is no different than Counter Strike was back in it's day, in the FPS genre.
Yeah, every MAINSTREAM loser and his brother played it. And they missed out on most of the genre's best games as a result. They, and their attitude, were shunned and laughed at by the rest of the FPS community...vermin, in every sense of the word.
Just like other MAINSTREAM garbage....pop music, fast food, anorexia, and romantic comedies. It's all garbage. It caters to the low-brow sheeple who are content to follow the path well trodden.
Human lemmings, all.
As these fools chase after the "epic" purple carrot on a sick, those of us who know better point and laugh. We love WoW, but not because we play it. Because it is the human land-fill....it's where the garbage goes, and it keeps the streets cleaner in the games we do play.
A WoW player in another game is like a Brittany Spears fan in a mosh pit.....a couple of loud drunks in your favorite japanese resturaunt...like being served a cup of McDonald's coffee at Starbuck's. They are out of place, disruptive, and simply not wanted. Their very presence lowers the quality of the environment.
We've got them all on an island....now if we can just figure out how to nuke it.
Originally posted by Quizzical
If you don't like some types of people who play MMORPGs, then what's so bad about some games disproportionately sucking up those types of people? That leaves fewer of them in other games, and you can go play those other games.
True, in a way. But think about this - movies, music and regular games cost musch less to produce, than MMOs. With risks this high, some studios (and, quite likely, a lot of them) will stop chasing the fabled "carrot" of several million (even several thousands) subscribers and either do lackluster F2P games or stop doing MMOs altogether.
Yeah....and ya ever think maybe these companies are investing TOO much money in something solely in the hopes of netting the WoW crowd?? It's not going to happen. The people playing WoW aren't going to go to another game that's exactly the same thing under a different title...especially when their friends and established characters are back in WoW.
I hate to tell you this, but back in teh day companies didn't spend millions developing an MMORPG....but those games still did fine, and were of higher quality than the GARBAGE that's being churned out today.
Smaller game studios are the future of the genre, man. Small companies making games for the sake of gaming....not to try to cash in on the percieved "success" of WoW.
And the major companies need to realise that a game has to stand on it's own merits...not rely on recycled concepts and an inflated advertising budget.
Smaller companies usually turn into unpolished laggy "FreeToPee"s. Yes, there are a lot of good F2Ps. Hell, MUDs, are probably MMO gaming at it's best. Bet let's be serious... Sometimes you want the game to look good, play good [b]and[/b] be innovative. Although, I still can see, where you're going with this.
Oh irony...be still my heart....see my signature for clarity...heheh
It's better to lurk in forums and be thought a fool...than to endlessly "Quote" and remove all doubts.
So why did every MMO(besides Eve) lose a big chunk of its sunsbscribers once WOW came out? By the way, NONE of them recovered those lost players. So WOW comes out and all the great MMOs lose 1/2 their playerbases. After some time people get bored of WOW, apparently, but no one actually goes back to play their old MMOs. Why? WOW continues to grow, NEVER dropping in subs for what, 5 years and counting. Now with millions of new gamers out there and LOADS of free trials to be had, no other MMO has actually benefited from WOWs playerbase. In the case of AOC and WAR plenty of people bought the game, but the people that actually stuck around after a few months have been no different from 2001. Millions of new players and no MMO has been able to capitilize. All the "greats" never gained subscribers since WOW. Maybe the "great" MMOs weren't all that great once an actual FUN MMO came along. They'r great fun challenging games right? Wouldn't they all get played once millions of people discovered them? Aren't there new gamers that want a challenge and the abiity to experience greatness?
Whats great at one time just isn't great anymore. Accept it.
So why did every MMO(besides Eve) lose a big chunk of its sunsbscribers once WOW came out? By the way, NONE of them recovered those lost players. So WOW comes out and all the great MMOs lose 1/2 their playerbases. After some time people get bored of WOW, apparently, but no one actually goes back to play their old MMOs. Why? WOW continues to grow, NEVER dropping in subs for what, 5 years and counting. Now with millions of new gamers out there and LOADS of free trials to be had, no other MMO has actually benefited from WOWs playerbase. In the case of AOC and WAR plenty of people bought the game, but the people that actually stuck around after a few months have been no different from 2001. Millions of new players and no MMO has been able to capitilize. All the "greats" never gained subscribers since WOW. Maybe the "great" MMOs weren't all that great once an actual FUN MMO came along. They'r great fun challenging games right? Wouldn't they all get played once millions of people discovered them? Aren't there new gamers that want a challenge and the abiity to experience greatness? Whats great at one time just isn't great anymore. Accept it.
I think the quote-train has been derailed... Actually the entire thread seems to be. The POINT to this thread seems to be more than WoW is not beneficial to the market place. It has become a monopoly and is forcing everyones hand. Whether its good or not as a game isn't really even up for debate (heck I play WoW everyday). Without the open market place there is no room for growth or change. But this isn't the first game genre that this has happeend to and it shows that there is still hope that MMORPG companies will continue trying to give us something that is different from WoW and not just the same.
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
Comments
What I did when I quit WoW was to go back to A Tale in the Desert, which is a subscription game. I'd later go back to Infantry briefly, which is also a subscription game.
I meant, that people go back to WoW. A lot. And stay there. Okay, I'm lost now...
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Yeah....and ya ever think maybe these companies are investing TOO much money in something solely in the hopes of netting the WoW crowd?? It's not going to happen. The people playing WoW aren't going to go to another game that's exactly the same thing under a different title...especially when their friends and established characters are back in WoW.
I hate to tell you this, but back in teh day companies didn't spend millions developing an MMORPG....but those games still did fine, and were of higher quality than the GARBAGE that's being churned out today.
Smaller game studios are the future of the genre, man. Small companies making games for the sake of gaming....not to try to cash in on the percieved "success" of WoW.
And the major companies need to realise that a game has to stand on it's own merits...not rely on recycled concepts and an inflated advertising budget.
Smaller companies usually turn into unpolished laggy "FreeToPee"s. Yes, there are a lot of good F2Ps. Hell, MUDs, are probably MMO gaming at it's best. Bet let's be serious... Sometimes you want the game to look good, play good [b]and[/b] be innovative. Although, I still can see, where you're going with this.
Now, now...don't confuse the F2P item-mall grinders for a legitimate, quality MMO. Those are churned out primarily by asian companies trying to skip the middle-man of gold-farmers / sellers by simply offering in-game items for cash. A totally different thing.
Let's instead remeber games like AC, AO, DAoC, Neocron, and even EQ....there as no WoW to compete with in those days...no magic 11 million subs to try to acquire.
And newer games, such as Spellborn, and even Darkfall. Games designed to be fun in their own way, on their own merits, and obviously not trying to acquire wow-like subs. I've never played Darkfall personally, but I can tell you that Spellborn looks and plays like a quality game....and in fact it is. And it didn't take the budget of a small country to make.
We have a lot of games in development, and more and more I see companies veering away from the cash-grab, and just trying to make a good game. Bravo!
Again, yes... But consider this - hyow many of the better ones can actually hold their subscriber base long enough? And what exactly holds it? Polish? Features? Difficulty? Darkfall seems like a good game, but chances of it becoming obscure oddity, rather, than a semi-popular geekvana are quite high.
Spellborn is fun, in it's own right, but combat system is... Distracting, rather then enhancing, to say the list. Still, it's one of a few games, I want to stay on pulse of.
Well, it will need to be a combination of things...one good aspect isn't going to be enough to keep people playing for the long haul.
Polish, for sure....no one wants to play a buggy game with stiff animation. Character creation and customisation needs to be versatile, and each player must be able to look quite unique.
As for actual features....well, I could tell you what I look for in a game, but that would just be me spouting off my personal opinion...and there are 100000 threads like that on this site. Suffice to say that a game needs to offer a range of activities, and a sense of "ownership", or belonging. Players will tend to stay longer if they feel that they are part of the world...not just visitors.
And on that note....the game needs to HAVE a world. Not just a sequence of linear zones filled with scripted, guided events. Too many MMOs have been made recently that are basically single player games with a chat box.
See, a good mix I think would be to have plenty of quests and activities that one can do alone, when there is no time for a group. Quests that take the faction, and even class of the player into account. Why would a thief character want to return widow npc's stolen purse from teh thugs down the street?? How about instead being tasked by the underworld bosses to sneak into a museum and acquire a rare item? let people PLAY their role, instead of it just defining what skills they get, and what gear they wear.
And let's skip the group quests that sit in your quest log forever, and instead use a form of dynamically generated group content...like a faction-based mission system. Think of an expanded, modernized version of AO's mission system.
This way groups can come together for the sake of group content, and STAY together after the quest is over to do another...not just disband once that abberation in the quest log is finally removed.
let's think about what's been done WRONG, instead of trying to copy the "magical success formula". Give players a game that soothes the burn-out, and offers a solution to the weaknesses of the genre.
Yeah....and ya ever think maybe these companies are investing TOO much money in something solely in the hopes of netting the WoW crowd?? It's not going to happen. The people playing WoW aren't going to go to another game that's exactly the same thing under a different title...especially when their friends and established characters are back in WoW.
I hate to tell you this, but back in teh day companies didn't spend millions developing an MMORPG....but those games still did fine, and were of higher quality than the GARBAGE that's being churned out today.
Smaller game studios are the future of the genre, man. Small companies making games for the sake of gaming....not to try to cash in on the percieved "success" of WoW.
And the major companies need to realise that a game has to stand on it's own merits...not rely on recycled concepts and an inflated advertising budget.
Smaller companies usually turn into unpolished laggy "FreeToPee"s. Yes, there are a lot of good F2Ps. Hell, MUDs, are probably MMO gaming at it's best. Bet let's be serious... Sometimes you want the game to look good, play good [b]and[/b] be innovative. Although, I still can see, where you're going with this.
Now, now...don't confuse the F2P item-mall grinders for a legitimate, quality MMO. Those are churned out primarily by asian companies trying to skip the middle-man of gold-farmers / sellers by simply offering in-game items for cash. A totally different thing.
Let's instead remeber games like AC, AO, DAoC, Neocron, and even EQ....there as no WoW to compete with in those days...no magic 11 million subs to try to acquire.
And newer games, such as Spellborn, and even Darkfall. Games designed to be fun in their own way, on their own merits, and obviously not trying to acquire wow-like subs. I've never played Darkfall personally, but I can tell you that Spellborn looks and plays like a quality game....and in fact it is. And it didn't take the budget of a small country to make.
We have a lot of games in development, and more and more I see companies veering away from the cash-grab, and just trying to make a good game. Bravo!
Again, yes... But consider this - hyow many of the better ones can actually hold their subscriber base long enough? And what exactly holds it? Polish? Features? Difficulty? Darkfall seems like a good game, but chances of it becoming obscure oddity, rather, than a semi-popular geekvana are quite high.
Spellborn is fun, in it's own right, but combat system is... Distracting, rather then enhancing, to say the list. Still, it's one of a few games, I want to stay on pulse of.
Well, it will need to be a combination of things...one good aspect isn't going to be enough to keep people playing for the long haul.
Polish, for sure....no one wants to play a buggy game with stiff animation. Character creation and customisation needs to be versatile, and each player must be able to look quite unique.
As for actual features....well, I could tell you what I look for in a game, but that would just be me spouting off my personal opinion...and there are 100000 threads like that on this site. Suffice to say that a game needs to offer a range of activities, and a sense of "ownership", or belonging. Players will tend to stay longer if they feel that they are part of the world...not just visitors.
And on that note....the game needs to HAVE a world. Not just a sequence of linear zones filled with scripted, guided events. Too many MMOs have been made recently that are basically single player games with a chat box.
See, a good mix I think would be to have plenty of quests and activities that one can do alone, when there is no time for a group. Quests that take the faction, and even class of the player into account. Why would a thief character want to return widow npc's stolen purse from teh thugs down the street?? How about instead being tasked by the underworld bosses to sneak into a museum and acquire a rare item? let people PLAY their role, instead of it just defining what skills they get, and what gear they wear.
And let's skip the group quests that sit in your quest log forever, and instead use a form of dynamically generated group content...like a faction-based mission system. Think of an expanded, modernized version of AO's mission system.
This way groups can come together for the sake of group content, and STAY together after the quest is over to do another...not just disband once that abberation in the quest log is finally removed.
let's think about what's been done WRONG, instead of trying to copy the "magical success formula". Give players a game that soothes the burn-out, and offers a solution to the weaknesses of the genre.
I dont know why im quoting you guys cause thats like a book ^^
I jus liked the amount of quotes. QUOTE TRAIN!
Yeah....and ya ever think maybe these companies are investing TOO much money in something solely in the hopes of netting the WoW crowd?? It's not going to happen. The people playing WoW aren't going to go to another game that's exactly the same thing under a different title...especially when their friends and established characters are back in WoW.
I hate to tell you this, but back in teh day companies didn't spend millions developing an MMORPG....but those games still did fine, and were of higher quality than the GARBAGE that's being churned out today.
Smaller game studios are the future of the genre, man. Small companies making games for the sake of gaming....not to try to cash in on the percieved "success" of WoW.
And the major companies need to realise that a game has to stand on it's own merits...not rely on recycled concepts and an inflated advertising budget.
Smaller companies usually turn into unpolished laggy "FreeToPee"s. Yes, there are a lot of good F2Ps. Hell, MUDs, are probably MMO gaming at it's best. Bet let's be serious... Sometimes you want the game to look good, play good [b]and[/b] be innovative. Although, I still can see, where you're going with this.
Now, now...don't confuse the F2P item-mall grinders for a legitimate, quality MMO. Those are churned out primarily by asian companies trying to skip the middle-man of gold-farmers / sellers by simply offering in-game items for cash. A totally different thing.
Let's instead remeber games like AC, AO, DAoC, Neocron, and even EQ....there as no WoW to compete with in those days...no magic 11 million subs to try to acquire.
And newer games, such as Spellborn, and even Darkfall. Games designed to be fun in their own way, on their own merits, and obviously not trying to acquire wow-like subs. I've never played Darkfall personally, but I can tell you that Spellborn looks and plays like a quality game....and in fact it is. And it didn't take the budget of a small country to make.
We have a lot of games in development, and more and more I see companies veering away from the cash-grab, and just trying to make a good game. Bravo!
Wait wait......you think that "companies veering away from the cash-grab and just just trying to make a good game'?
So to paraphrase, you think that gaming companies are not motivated by profit?
What color is the sky in your world?
there is a big difference between profit and greed, as a motivation. Those who absurdly think they can land 11 million subs with their new, shiny wow-clone are greedy...those who think that they can make more than their operating cost and thus make a profit are not.
While that is logical, its not entirely true. Perhaps the biggest aspect of MMOs in general is the community, and the sub communities you attach yourself to. When most people get older and move out from their family, they don't move clear across the country. They tend to settle in the same area as the family.
WoW, has ingeniously made itself the lowest common denominator, like the earlier posters pointed out everyone plays WoW. Everyone and their mother, their sister, their uncle, their best friend, their rival, their first prostitute, and their potential new Real Life friends. Once people are so interconnected like that, the community/sub-community becomes rather deep rooted and it is incredibly difficult to leave for long periods of time. So, people leave to a game they find "more fun" only to return to WoW, because all of their friends and family play it.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Very
Very
Very
Long
Well, it will need to be a combination of things...one good aspect isn't going to be enough to keep people playing for the long haul.
Polish, for sure....no one wants to play a buggy game with stiff animation. Character creation and customisation needs to be versatile, and each player must be able to look quite unique.
As for actual features....well, I could tell you what I look for in a game, but that would just be me spouting off my personal opinion...and there are 100000 threads like that on this site. Suffice to say that a game needs to offer a range of activities, and a sense of "ownership", or belonging. Players will tend to stay longer if they feel that they are part of the world...not just visitors.
And on that note....the game needs to HAVE a world. Not just a sequence of linear zones filled with scripted, guided events. Too many MMOs have been made recently that are basically single player games with a chat box.
See, a good mix I think would be to have plenty of quests and activities that one can do alone, when there is no time for a group. Quests that take the faction, and even class of the player into account. Why would a thief character want to return widow npc's stolen purse from teh thugs down the street?? How about instead being tasked by the underworld bosses to sneak into a museum and acquire a rare item? let people PLAY their role, instead of it just defining what skills they get, and what gear they wear.
And let's skip the group quests that sit in your quest log forever, and instead use a form of dynamically generated group content...like a faction-based mission system. Think of an expanded, modernized version of AO's mission system.
This way groups can come together for the sake of group content, and STAY together after the quest is over to do another...not just disband once that abberation in the quest log is finally removed.
let's think about what's been done WRONG, instead of trying to copy the "magical success formula". Give players a game that soothes the burn-out, and offers a solution to the weaknesses of the genre.
Now, if only developers could see into our heads...
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
While that is logical, its not entirely true. Perhaps the biggest aspect of MMOs in general is the community, and the sub communities you attach yourself to. When most people get older and move out from their family, they don't move clear across the country. They tend to settle in the same area as the family.
WoW, has ingeniously made itself the lowest common denominator, like the earlier posters pointed out everyone plays WoW. Everyone and their mother, their sister, their uncle, their best friend, their rival, their first prostitute, and their potential new Real Life friends. Once people are so interconnected like that, the community/sub-community becomes rather deep rooted and it is incredibly difficult to leave for long periods of time. So, people leave to a game they find "more fun" only to return to WoW, because all of their friends and family play it.
Finally someone sees my point. THIS can be MMORPGs downfall.
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
OK, after reading the "quote-train" I will make comments with the least amount of quotes possible. I left Kaisen_Dexx's up because his 2nd paragraph really hits home. The "bouncing-back" that was referred to all throughout the thread is directly related to my RL and online friends.
One of the downsides that was discussed was Blizzard's game-changing patches. This is nothing new to WoW, and was actually done quite well in Diablo 2 (Think it was the 1.10 synergy patch?). But these changes stir up people's curiosities, just like expansions do. And when me and my friends are happily playing L4D or TF2 and they get wind of a new WoW patch that will change the face of the game they celebrate like its the 4th of July.
Goronian I know that your OP said basically the same thing but Kaisen's took up less space
I find it really funny the self-hate that MMO players exhibit. Maybe not self-hate, but saying things that they dislike about game X, that also applies to game Y. But game X they hate and game Y they like. It makes no sense. I believe someones "epic-carrot-on-a-stick" made me think about this.
MMOs never have forced anyone to do... anything. You could log in and fish for a living, whatever. But the whole idea of progression and getting phat lewts is entrenched deep within the recesses of the D&D and RPG experience. The definition of irony should be a person who plays MMORPGs.
I also see a lot of people hating a game just because its popular. I will also assume these are the same people who hated their classmates because they were "more popular".
Someone made a good analogy to Counter-Strike taking over the FPS world and getting all the casual gamers into the genre and #@$%-blocking all other games. I do like the analogy to FPS as a genre. This does lend hope to MMORGPs because look at the different (and successful) FPS games that still are being made like L4D, TF2, and <insertRandomWarGame>. So maybe eventually even WoW's stranglehold could be broken.
Wharg0ul said that smaller game companies are our future and I wholeheartedly agree. It may be niche markets with only a few thousand players on a single server, but this is what I would hope the future will bring. Now with what was already discussed with the social draw of having friends play the same game this may not be able to take root with the Behemoth of WoW staring over the masses. This is working for single player games though (think world of goo).
Lastly Goronian, you mentioned that it would be great if developers could see into our heads. I'm torn on this. As a group of players, MMORPG players seem to be the most confused about what they would like to see in a game. Most want to see stuff thats already in games that they have played and stopped playing for reasons X,Y and Z. But also I sometimes have good ideas (or I'd like to think so) for MMORPGs. I think if developers could read the minds of their players they wouldn't be able to weed out enough of the garbage to make sense of it...
Oh and Goronian... your avatar freaks me out.
*edit* my attempts at creating paragraphs in this god-awful forum text-editor just made things worse...
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
and because these recent MMOs have gone the single player route, they can never form a strong community.
WoW was the first to make MMOs easy, therefore everyone and their mother plays it. It's community is based on the fact that it was the first to make it easy so everyone flocked to it.
These new games try to make it even EASIER and MORE solo, but it doesn't have the capability of getting everyone and their mother to play, cuz your old friends are still in WoW. Like was stated before, "why leave what your comfortable with?" is one of the biggest reasons these people don't leave.
So what needs to happen is these new games need to become more based on community building. Group quests should be plentiful and should offer a fun experience that you would want to repeat. There should be a common goal for each faction and it should require a lot of community work to accomplish. There should be a level-scaling ability so you can help out your lowbie friends (or go skill based, w/e). There should be tangible rewards for helping lowbies (money, access to new mounts, some fluff items). Give people a piece of the world that they can conquer for their guild and friends.
Making connections is what forms a real community. Solo based games are just not going to cut it anymore. You want a successful MMO? Make people talk and interact and form relationships with other people.
Haven't you ever wondered why RP servers have thrived in these new MMOs compared to other servers in the game?
Cimmeria in Age of Conan, Pheonix Throne in WAR, Landrovel (SP?) server in LotRO, Moon Guard in WoW.
Age of Conan had server mergers and Cimmeria only had to be merged with one server, and it was a very low pop server.
Pheonix Throne has an extremely active RP community even after the rather shaky launch.
Landrovel is renowned for it's mature and active RP community. It isn't the largest server, but it's definitely up there.
I grew up with Moon Guard. It was my first RP server. When I joined it had a medium level pop. When I left WoW it was so crowded that they offered transfers off. The ques are enormous and the only thing that saved it from over-population would be the new RP server Wyrmrest Accord which also has an extremely active RP community.
connections, connections, connections. That is what will keep people paying every month.
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Guys! I'm hopelessly lost in a mountain of mole hills! Them damn moles!
@ Meltdown
I wont quote your entire post, as it was a bit long. You mentioned a few things about MMO players not know what they want this is entirely true. Games were much better back in the day when developers made the game that THEY liked. In this day in age developers are trying to appease far too many people and all it ends up doing is alienating both audiences and created a mash of incoherent ideas.
Oh and also, I hated my class because they were a bunch of drunken pricks that were more than happy to chum with you for answers on the next exam. So that is close to why I loathe WoW I guess.
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|X| \*........*/ |X|
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You wouldn't understand
OK, after reading the "quote-train" I will make comments with the least amount of quotes possible. I left Kaisen_Dexx's up because his 2nd paragraph really hits home. The "bouncing-back" that was referred to all throughout the thread is directly related to my RL and online friends.
One of the downsides that was discussed was Blizzard's game-changing patches. This is nothing new to WoW, and was actually done quite well in Diablo 2 (Think it was the 1.10 synergy patch?). But these changes stir up people's curiosities, just like expansions do. And when me and my friends are happily playing L4D or TF2 and they get wind of a new WoW patch that will change the face of the game they celebrate like its the 4th of July.
Goronian I know that your OP said basically the same thing but Kaisen's took up less space
I find it really funny the self-hate that MMO players exhibit. Maybe not self-hate, but saying things that they dislike about game X, that also applies to game Y. But game X they hate and game Y they like. It makes no sense. I believe someones "epic-carrot-on-a-stick" made me think about this.
MMOs never have forced anyone to do... anything. You could log in and fish for a living, whatever. But the whole idea of progression and getting phat lewts is entrenched deep within the recesses of the D&D and RPG experience. The definition of irony should be a person who plays MMORPGs.
I also see a lot of people hating a game just because its popular. I will also assume these are the same people who hated their classmates because they were "more popular".
Someone made a good analogy to Counter-Strike taking over the FPS world and getting all the casual gamers into the genre and #@$%-blocking all other games. I do like the analogy to FPS as a genre. This does lend hope to MMORGPs because look at the different (and successful) FPS games that still are being made like L4D, TF2, and <insertRandomWarGame>. So maybe eventually even WoW's stranglehold could be broken.
Wharg0ul said that smaller game companies are our future and I wholeheartedly agree. It may be niche markets with only a few thousand players on a single server, but this is what I would hope the future will bring. Now with what was already discussed with the social draw of having friends play the same game this may not be able to take root with the Behemoth of WoW staring over the masses. This is working for single player games though (think world of goo).
Lastly Goronian, you mentioned that it would be great if developers could see into our heads. I'm torn on this. As a group of players, MMORPG players seem to be the most confused about what they would like to see in a game. Most want to see stuff thats already in games that they have played and stopped playing for reasons X,Y and Z. But also I sometimes have good ideas (or I'd like to think so) for MMORPGs. I think if developers could read the minds of their players they wouldn't be able to weed out enough of the garbage to make sense of it...
Oh and Goronian... your avatar freaks me out.
*edit* my attempts at creating paragraphs in this god-awful forum text-editor just made things worse...
What? It's Jon Van Caneghem, for Sandrossake.
The "heads" comment was mostly ironic.
And I've mentioned before - while small-time companies MIGHT make good (and lively) MMOs, they will never breach WoW's fortress, simply because it needs another high-rank release. Which are costly, even compared to other games, like FPSes. Which won't sucsseed anyway, because of "well, more of peers play WoW, why bother with the new one?". WoW wil either stay forever, or wither and die under its own weight some time in the future. '
But your post still gave me hope. Maybe we can survive in the niches...
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
Such typical "elitist" garbage. Your music sucks because everyone likes it, mine is better because no one is listening! Your shoes suck because everyone has those, I wear hemp shoes! This game sucks because everyone is playing it, I prefer to play only real games that less than 2,000 play worldwide! The cool crownd sucks.....gaaaaaaaaah!
You are the man because you don't "follow the carrot on a stick" gameplay!
Give me a break bro. This type of post is so demeaning......to your own intelligence. So pathetic. I nominate that for worst post of the year.
To the OP, saying that people will stop trying to create great MMO's because they are worried everyone will just go back to WoW is totally absurd. That crowd, that they have CREATED based on the game they CREATED, is the ultimate carrot on a stick for any other developer. That is why so many MMO's are in development with such huge budgets being thrown around. It's the cash-cow prize of gaming that everyone wants in on, it's just that they are so damn hard to make well.
And to your other point, about not liking the people.....? Then why play an MMO at all? If you have any experience in the world, you know the Public sucks in general. And the bigger your pool of people to look at, the worse it gets. I have been an MMO player from the start, way before your entry with Wow, and there definitely was a feeling in UO that we had this big "secret", this amazing game that no one knew about. Those days are gone brother, and any great game is going to have a lot of people playing it which will equal a lot of douches playing it. That's life. Play with your friends, get a good guild, and then crush those douches (if the game has pvp that is.....=)).
Otherwise, play great single player games.
Sorry, no can do.
I have never played WOW, never played Warcraft, never played Starcraft, and have no interest in any of the former.
So I have no basis to comment, or compare.
Nor can I ever return to games I have no interest in.
WTF, man?? Why the cheap shot?
I'm a 36 year old father, a mature adult....but because I don't subscribe to WoW I'm a "l33t k1d"??
Grow the fuck up.
Go back and read your original post... Then take your own advise. I'm always amused by the anti WoW hysterics. Lord knows WoW is far from perfect(its flaws are legion) but it IS the most successful and profitable MMO in history. Its also a fairly good game, until one hits level cap. You want to see a room full of investors go all bug eyed and start throwing truck loads of money at you? Intone the mystic phrase "Its just like World of Warcraft".
What? It's Jon Van Caneghem, for Sandrossake.
The "heads" comment was mostly ironic.
And I've mentioned before - while small-time companies MIGHT make good (and lively) MMOs, they will never breach WoW's fortress, simply because it needs another high-rank release. Which are costly, even compared to other games, like FPSes. Which won't sucsseed anyway, because of "well, more of peers play WoW, why bother with the new one?". WoW wil either stay forever, or wither and die under its own weight some time in the future. '
But your post still gave me hope. Maybe we can survive in the niches...
I'm not that keen on remembering what my game developers names are, nevermind their likeness. Anyways from this thread I believe this would be a more fitting avatar for you.
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
You are SO wrong.....
fast food isnt garbage
but yeah, you're right
Yeah....and ya ever think maybe these companies are investing TOO much money in something solely in the hopes of netting the WoW crowd?? It's not going to happen. The people playing WoW aren't going to go to another game that's exactly the same thing under a different title...especially when their friends and established characters are back in WoW.
I hate to tell you this, but back in teh day companies didn't spend millions developing an MMORPG....but those games still did fine, and were of higher quality than the GARBAGE that's being churned out today.
Smaller game studios are the future of the genre, man. Small companies making games for the sake of gaming....not to try to cash in on the percieved "success" of WoW.
And the major companies need to realise that a game has to stand on it's own merits...not rely on recycled concepts and an inflated advertising budget.
Smaller companies usually turn into unpolished laggy "FreeToPee"s. Yes, there are a lot of good F2Ps. Hell, MUDs, are probably MMO gaming at it's best. Bet let's be serious... Sometimes you want the game to look good, play good [b]and[/b] be innovative. Although, I still can see, where you're going with this.
Oh irony...be still my heart....see my signature for clarity...heheh
It's better to lurk in forums and be thought a fool...than to endlessly "Quote" and remove all doubts.
the entire "point" of the original post is just beating a dead horse and is hardly original at all...
So why did every MMO(besides Eve) lose a big chunk of its sunsbscribers once WOW came out? By the way, NONE of them recovered those lost players. So WOW comes out and all the great MMOs lose 1/2 their playerbases. After some time people get bored of WOW, apparently, but no one actually goes back to play their old MMOs. Why? WOW continues to grow, NEVER dropping in subs for what, 5 years and counting. Now with millions of new gamers out there and LOADS of free trials to be had, no other MMO has actually benefited from WOWs playerbase. In the case of AOC and WAR plenty of people bought the game, but the people that actually stuck around after a few months have been no different from 2001. Millions of new players and no MMO has been able to capitilize. All the "greats" never gained subscribers since WOW. Maybe the "great" MMOs weren't all that great once an actual FUN MMO came along. They'r great fun challenging games right? Wouldn't they all get played once millions of people discovered them? Aren't there new gamers that want a challenge and the abiity to experience greatness?
Whats great at one time just isn't great anymore. Accept it.
I think the quote-train has been derailed... Actually the entire thread seems to be. The POINT to this thread seems to be more than WoW is not beneficial to the market place. It has become a monopoly and is forcing everyones hand. Whether its good or not as a game isn't really even up for debate (heck I play WoW everyday). Without the open market place there is no room for growth or change. But this isn't the first game genre that this has happeend to and it shows that there is still hope that MMORPG companies will continue trying to give us something that is different from WoW and not just the same.
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath