If you don't like some types of people who play MMORPGs, then what's so bad about some games disproportionately sucking up those types of people? That leaves fewer of them in other games, and you can go play those other games.
It's just sour grapes from the OP. The game market is doing fantastic without his advice.
If you don't like some types of people who play MMORPGs, then what's so bad about some games disproportionately sucking up those types of people? That leaves fewer of them in other games, and you can go play those other games.
It's just sour grapes from the OP. The game market is doing fantastic without his advice.
Actually, the OP and others have provided an interesting and insightful chain of reading, and raises good points for discussion.
And few people on these forums feel the MMORPG market is doing fantastic at this point in time. More would agree that its staggering and in need of a shot in the arm to break it from its paralysis caused by the phennomen known as WOW.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If you don't like some types of people who play MMORPGs, then what's so bad about some games disproportionately sucking up those types of people? That leaves fewer of them in other games, and you can go play those other games.
It's just sour grapes from the OP. The game market is doing fantastic without his advice.
Actually, the OP and others have provided an interesting and insightful chain of reading, and raises good points for discussion.
And few people on these forums feel the MMORPG market is doing fantastic at this point in time. More would agree that its staggering and in need of a shot in the arm to break it from its paralysis caused by the phennomen known as WOW.
Thank you.
I've thought of another reason. When you buy, say, a music album, or a movie ticket, or a vdieogame... You generally do it once. That's it. There's no financial commitmennt involved, even for a traditional non-MMO online games. But with MMOs, it's suddenly a problem - you have ti pay every month. Sure, it's only 15 bucks. But with the influx of a more "casual" gamer into the picture (and I should say "casual" approach) people act much more catiously (borderline paranoid) about their MMO choices. That's why a lot of them try the trial/first free month and leave the games. "Yeah, it's not bad, but my 15$/mo still go to WoW". And that's exactly why developers might one day give the hell up. It's not Counter Strike.
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
Fist of all great games are coming, and no they will not be as popular as the "in-thing"
The "in-thing" is always crap, in music, tv, anything.
But yes great games are coming and most people on this forums are ignoring them because they aren't enough like WoW, or the beloved Darkfall.
For instance Lego Universe - possibly the most creative massive user experience today. Yet no one on this forum talks about it. Why? Seriously why?
ToR - BioWare makes great RPGs, yet most people on this forums are calling it a WoW clone before it even comes out. It won't be a WoW clone. And no it won't be Darkfall clone either – sorry.
Secret World has huge potential - just because of the name funcom most people on this forum don't want to try it out. The dev team making it is not the same team that made AoC.
And right now I'm having a great time making my own missions in CoV.
So yes WoW is item grinding crap, but guess what, that's what people what. Other MMOs had their change to be number one, and they didn't do it. Maybe there won't be any good MMOs in the future – perhaps players need to look at games that aren't MMOs. Mass Effect, FO3 and many others are worth playing.
Fist of all great games are coming, and no they will not be as popular as the "in-thing"
The "in-thing" is always crap, in music, tv, anything.
But yes great games are coming and most people on this forums are ignoring them because they aren't enough like WoW, or the beloved Darkfall. For instance Lego Universe - possibly the most creative massive user experience today. Yet no one on this forum talks about it. Why? Seriously why? ToR - BioWare makes great RPGs, yet most people on this forums are calling it a WoW clone before it even comes out. It won't be a WoW clone. And no it won't be Darkfall clone either – sorry. Secret World has huge potential - just because of the name funcom most people on this forum don't want to try it out. The dev team making it is not the same team that made AoC. And right now I'm having a great time making my own missions in CoV. So yes WoW is item grinding crap, but guess what, that's what people what. Other MMOs had their change to be number one, and they didn't do it. Maybe there won't be any good MMOs in the future – perhaps players need to look at games that aren't MMOs. Mass Effect, FO3 and many others are worth playing.
You haven't read the thread, at all, have you?
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
So why did every MMO(besides Eve) lose a big chunk of its sunsbscribers once WOW came out? By the way, NONE of them recovered those lost players. So WOW comes out and all the great MMOs lose 1/2 their playerbases. After some time people get bored of WOW, apparently, but no one actually goes back to play their old MMOs. Why? WOW continues to grow, NEVER dropping in subs for what, 5 years and counting. Now with millions of new gamers out there and LOADS of free trials to be had, no other MMO has actually benefited from WOWs playerbase. In the case of AOC and WAR plenty of people bought the game, but the people that actually stuck around after a few months have been no different from 2001. Millions of new players and no MMO has been able to capitilize. All the "greats" never gained subscribers since WOW. Maybe the "great" MMOs weren't all that great once an actual FUN MMO came along. They'r great fun challenging games right? Wouldn't they all get played once millions of people discovered them? Aren't there new gamers that want a challenge and the abiity to experience greatness? Whats great at one time just isn't great anymore. Accept it.
I think the quote-train has been derailed... Actually the entire thread seems to be. The POINT to this thread seems to be more than WoW is not beneficial to the market place. It has become a monopoly and is forcing everyones hand. Whether its good or not as a game isn't really even up for debate (heck I play WoW everyday). Without the open market place there is no room for growth or change. But this isn't the first game genre that this has happeend to and it shows that there is still hope that MMORPG companies will continue trying to give us something that is different from WoW and not just the same.
I can see it now... US Department of "Justice" has filed suit against Blizzard Entertainment (makers of the globally popular MMO World of Warcraft) . The Do"J" claims that WoW is a illegal monopoly whose success has damaged the entertainment market and seeks to have its 11 million players ordered to play Blizzards failing competitors games.
"Without the open market place"?? This is entirely the *result* of an *open* market place. You do realize that the entire point of this is to make the best possible profit? Blizzard has demonstrated exactly how to do just that. Is it any wonder that many others are attempting to tap in to that methodology? Millions and millions of people are *freely* giving Blizzard money each and every month for their game. That is the very ESSENCE of a free/open market. Given that these games cost millions and millions (of other peoples money) to produce, its hardly surprising that the groups involved will tend to follow certain established patterns. Do I like it? Not really. I've been playing these games since UO. But any other approach than that of a free market will likely have much more unpleasent results.
So why did every MMO(besides Eve) lose a big chunk of its sunsbscribers once WOW came out? By the way, NONE of them recovered those lost players. So WOW comes out and all the great MMOs lose 1/2 their playerbases. After some time people get bored of WOW, apparently, but no one actually goes back to play their old MMOs. Why? WOW continues to grow, NEVER dropping in subs for what, 5 years and counting. Now with millions of new gamers out there and LOADS of free trials to be had, no other MMO has actually benefited from WOWs playerbase. In the case of AOC and WAR plenty of people bought the game, but the people that actually stuck around after a few months have been no different from 2001. Millions of new players and no MMO has been able to capitilize. All the "greats" never gained subscribers since WOW. Maybe the "great" MMOs weren't all that great once an actual FUN MMO came along. They'r great fun challenging games right? Wouldn't they all get played once millions of people discovered them? Aren't there new gamers that want a challenge and the abiity to experience greatness? Whats great at one time just isn't great anymore. Accept it.
I think the quote-train has been derailed... Actually the entire thread seems to be. The POINT to this thread seems to be more than WoW is not beneficial to the market place. It has become a monopoly and is forcing everyones hand. Whether its good or not as a game isn't really even up for debate (heck I play WoW everyday). Without the open market place there is no room for growth or change. But this isn't the first game genre that this has happeend to and it shows that there is still hope that MMORPG companies will continue trying to give us something that is different from WoW and not just the same.
I can see it now... US Department of "Justice" has filed suit against Blizzard Entertainment (makers of the globally popular MMO World of Warcraft) . The Do"J" claims that WoW is a illegal monopoly whose success has damaged the entertainment market and seeks to have its 11 million players ordered to play Blizzards failing competitors games.
"Without the open market place"?? This is entirely the *result* of an *open* market place. You do realize that the entire point of this is to make the best possible profit? Blizzard has demonstrated exactly how to do just that. Is it any wonder that many others are attempting to tap in to that methodology? Millions and millions of people are *freely* giving Blizzard money each and every month for their game. That is the very ESSENCE of a free/open market. Given that these games cost millions and millions (of other peoples money) to produce, its hardly surprising that the groups involved will tend to follow certain established patterns. Do I like it? Not really. I've been playing these games since UO. But any other approach than that of a free market will likely have much more unpleasent results.
And you've missed the point again. I've never said it's "bad", or "good". I've only said, that it can just as well stop big-time developers from investing into MMOs altogether, leaving only small-time companies... And WoW.
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
according to that logic, every resturaunt in the country should be serving Big Macs...in fact they would be foolish not to, right?? There's just one flaw to that..some chefs prefer to make a quality product, and let the mass market be damned. Cheap, fast and easy =/= better.
No flaw. They take a different approach. If they stay in business, then their efforts have been rewarded. If they do not... Then the market has spoken. Its simple. If you don't like WoW or Big Mac's, don't buy them. As for the "let the mass market be damned"... No one is forcing people to make the type of profits that Blizzard does.
Originally posted by Goronian And you've missed the point again. I've never said it's "bad", or "good". I've only said, that it can just as well stop big-time developers from investing into MMOs altogether, leaving only small-time companies... And WoW. You're totally off-base on your perception of how WoW has affected the course of MMOG evolution.
Consider; pre-WoW a successful MMOG wascould expect to hit ~100,000 subscriptions.
Very few development houses were willing to outlay millions of dollars for a chance at that sort of return.
Since WoW came on the scene ~5 years ago, the genre has exploded. Now, every development house seems to be looking at the MMOG market as "the next frontier" .. and WoW's success played a part in bringing that perception about. If anyone's hurting the genre at the moment, it's the companies who are releasing substandard games.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Since WoW came on the scene ~5 years ago, the genre has exploded. Now, every development house seems to be looking at the MMOG market as "the next frontier" .. and WoW's success played a part in bringing that perception about. If anyone's hurting the genre at the moment, it's the companies who are releasing substandard games.
and you really can't see the connection here???
Regurgitated, worn out formulas relying on expensive marketing in order to cash in on the wow-crowd???
I prefer the days when we had less games of higher quality, myself.
Originally posted by Wharg0ul and you really can't see the connection here??? I can't see any sense in blaming Blizzard for other development houses releasing crap games that fail and lose them money. I lay the blame for a crap game where it belongs; on the makers of said crap game. Regurgitated, worn out formulas relying on expensive marketing in order to cash in on the wow-crowd??? Correction, trying (and failing) to cash in on WoW's success. See, here's the thing .. players won't play a crap game. Obviously, "crap" is a highly subjective term and we all have our favourites; but the important thing to remember here is that none of the regurgitated worn-out games that have been released in the past ~3 years have had a significant impact on the market. They've all either failed or are pootling along with a mid-low population. This is a good thing. Gamers are sending a message to developers clearly saying that if they want our subscriptions, they will have to exceed the currently available titles, not just copy them. I prefer the days when we had less games of higher quality, myself. And I'm looking forward to the days when developers realise that they can't get away with releasing crap games, and we finally see a WoW-killer that truly deserves the accolade. Unfortunately, games aren't made overnight and all of the releases we've seen in the past couple of years were undoubtably already in some stage of production before WoW was even released. It'll be another year or two before we see any real improvement in the genre, though I have high hopes for SW:TOR.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
I think the OP is right in his analysis of the community factor in WoWs continued success but I dont agree on his black view on what it means for the community in general.
Lets take a short historic perspective. What happened shortly after WoWs fantastic success? Well everyone else tried to make WoW2 to get a piece of the pie. Both AoC and WaR begang development shortly after WoW came out. Now we see that they cannot compete on WoWs terms so people learn.
What is happening now is invention instead of copying. People have realized that to be successful you have to be creative and create something new and different and then hope that enough people like it for it to be profitable.
This is a great inviroment for everyone. For the people who like the traditional and sure there is WoW and for those who have different taste new stuff is comming out that caters to their specific taste.
We just got Darkfall and TCoS both games that in no way try to compete with WoW but who offers a completely different experience. Darkfall might be an unpolished gangfest but many many people LOVE it with a passion because it give them exactly what they wanted. TCoS might be a weird surealistic game without items as we usually see them in MMOs but it is godsent to those who like a more FPS type MMO and hate the Trinity.
And what do we have in the future, we have Aion that is a traditional MMO but seems to compete with WoW on quality and content, thats fine but I doubt it will be as successful as people expect (even though the company is probably the most professional in the world). We have the Agency, DC heroes, Champions online, that Crime game and Kotor online ... and the secret world. NONE of those are WoW competitors, they instead say we cater to a specific kind of gamer here we offer enjoyment in our strange and different way.
So the industry fragments and become chaotic and in that enviroment something great will emerge. It wont get WoWs success ever again but it will be profitable and will give people who are tired of wow a chance to have fun. So everyone wins (except the people who make poor games that try to compete with WoW).
"You are the hero our legends have foretold will save our tribe, therefore please go kill 10 pigs."
It's not the fault of WoW that all other mmorpgs are shit. This is why people stick to WoW because theres nothing better to play and everything is like 5 years old or just a poor WoW clone. Looking on the horizon theres only one mmorpg that'll attract the interest of the mainstream crowd and that's ToR.
Developers need to stop making shit buggy WoW clones and start to innovate. I mean theres room for a Planetside 2 now and guess what WoW has opened all the potential Planetside 2 players up because when the first one came out people didn't want to pay a monthly fee. However now people who play WoW also player Online FPS like COD 4 so if Planetside 2 looks good then everyone wants a giant scale mmoFPS and will try it.
However SOE are wasting their time with shit like The Agency and DC Online that noone cares about.
Not trying to be derisive, but there's a big missing link in the OP. New MMORPG players are born every day.
If you quit playing MMORPGs, if you are burned out on fantasy games, dont' like EQ/WoW clones, don't like the Holy Trinity of Tank Nuke Healer, nobody cares because you will be replaced double, triple, and more.
Will new niche games come out that cater to you? Probably they will. Will the current MMORPG genre die just because you're tired of it? No. RIght now, there's some 14 year old somewhere logging on to an MMORPG for the very first time in their short lives and the experience will be all brand new and shiny for them.
Sigh... It's not about me. It's not about you. It's not even about other companies. It's about WoW, having monopoly over the genre, just because everyone plays it. Nobody wants to play anything else, because all their friends play WoW. And they're only marketed WoW. And they only see WoW. And that's what I (and some others) have been trying to tell for seven pages
Allright, thread derailed, I'll politely step away from the conversation. This turned out to be a greater filter, than any game...
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
Sigh... It's not about me. It's not about you. It's not even about other companies. It's about WoW, having monopoly over the genre, just because everyone plays it. Nobody wants to play anything else, because all their friends play WoW. And they're only marketed WoW. And they only see WoW. And that's what I (and some others) have been trying to tell for seven pages Allright, thread derailed, I'll politely step away from the conversation. This turned out to be a greater filter, than any game...
I wouldn't call WoW a monopoly, considering games like LotRO, EVE, WAR, and EQ2 manage to pull in AT LEAST 200k subs
and that's only really counting the western games.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Guys! I'm hopelessly lost in a mountain of mole hills! Them damn moles!
according to that logic, every resturaunt in the country should be serving Big Macs...in fact they would be foolish not to, right?? There's just one flaw to that..some chefs prefer to make a quality product, and let the mass market be damned. Cheap, fast and easy =/= better.
Your posts are really amusing to me. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, and clearly zero real world experience in any topic.
No restaurant in the world says "we will make this food, let the market be damned! We would rather have 10 loyal people come in every night, in a restaurant that seats 200, than be flooded with Lemmings who like Big Macs!" This is so idiotic I don't even know why I am responding. A restaurant, though not a great anology, but a restaurant, just like an MMO, is a for profit business. Any successful restaurant is serving food they THINK people want. Sometimes they are wrong and go out of business, but it starts with serving food, or creating an atmosphere, or creating a good price point, that they think will attract a "full house". To think otherwise is completely delusional.
Sigh... It's not about me. It's not about you. It's not even about other companies. It's about WoW, having monopoly over the genre, just because everyone plays it. Nobody wants to play anything else, because all their friends play WoW. And they're only marketed WoW. And they only see WoW. And that's what I (and some others) have been trying to tell for seven pages Allright, thread derailed, I'll politely step away from the conversation. This turned out to be a greater filter, than any game...
Sigh... It's not about me. It's not about you. It's not even about other companies. It's about WoW, having monopoly over the genre, just because everyone plays it. Nobody wants to play anything else, because all their friends play WoW. And they're only marketed WoW. And they only see WoW. And that's what I (and some others) have been trying to tell for seven pages Allright, thread derailed, I'll politely step away from the conversation. This turned out to be a greater filter, than any game...
I wouldn't call WoW a monopoly, considering games like LotRO, EVE, WAR, and EQ2 manage to pull in AT LEAST 200k subs
and that's only really counting the western games.
No, WoW is an anomaly. Truthfully, I don't even think Blizzard knows how to recreate WoW's success but we will see when they release their new game.
As for all this talk of a WoW killer, I trully hope there never is one but as long as developers keep thinking they can dethrone WoW we are going to see the same crap over and over again. Gone are the days of innovation, welcome to the days of recycling.
It's a Jeep thing. . . _______ |___| \_______/ = |||||| = |X| \*........*/ |X| |X|_________|X| You wouldn't understand
Sigh... It's not about me. It's not about you. It's not even about other companies. It's about WoW, having monopoly over the genre, just because everyone plays it. Nobody wants to play anything else, because all their friends play WoW. And they're only marketed WoW. And they only see WoW. And that's what I (and some others) have been trying to tell for seven pages Allright, thread derailed, I'll politely step away from the conversation. This turned out to be a greater filter, than any game...
But what you have been trying to "say" for 7 pages is just incorrect. Significant % of WoW players try these other games that come out, it's just that they can't hold peoples attention like WoW (btw, I haven't played WoW for over 3 years). If the other games were great, they would expand by word of mouth. They aren't great, that is the bottom line. Your thread just has the venom pointed in the wrong direction.
It should be pointed at the other development studios for releasing uninspired crap, rather then WoW for maintaining a well made product. Were people angry at the Beattles for the hundreds of bands that imitated them?
*Slaps self in face for comparing WoW to the Beatles.*
Sigh... It's not about me. It's not about you. It's not even about other companies. It's about WoW, having monopoly over the genre, just because everyone plays it. Nobody wants to play anything else, because all their friends play WoW. And they're only marketed WoW. And they only see WoW. And that's what I (and some others) have been trying to tell for seven pages Allright, thread derailed, I'll politely step away from the conversation. This turned out to be a greater filter, than any game... I'm sorry, but your posts on this topic just haven't really made sense. I imagine that's why the thread was so comprehensively derailed. The entire premise of your post is based on an incorrect assumption. WoW doesn't have a monopoly; It's not as though there's a shortage of alternative MMOGs to choose from .. lots of people just choose to play WoW and despite any protestations to the contrary, it's just down to personal choice. Saying that people are only playing for the community is just silly.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Oh I'm sorry. I forget that if no one plays a game its obviously BETTER and not cheap. Here's a little secret, WOW is not food. WOW is fast AND its slow,, its casual AND its hardcore. Kids play, adults play it AND MMO vets play it. Nerds play it AND normal people play it. Until some of you elitist nuckleheads get it through your thick skulls that WOW's quality is unquestionable, all your problems will be solved.
No MMO is forced to copy WOW. Not a one. If they need a million customers to keep the game running, then they wll have to offer a higher quality game that offers more modes of play than something like Darkfall or Pirates that caters to only 1 niche group.
I'm so sorry that some of you are so enlightened and above the rest of the dregs of gamers out there because you find old style gameplay appealing. I'm so sorry you need to be punished constantly to feel like your gametime is meaningful and worthwhile. I'm so sorry you feel cheated by the masses. I'm so sorry the genre has been stolen away from your pale, bony or extremely plump, expert MMo fingers. I'm so sorry you're upset that the genre has in your eyes, taken a turn for the worse even though every sign proves otherwise. Without WOW the genre would be dominated by EQ2 right now and what a sad state of affairs we'd be in. Considering how quickly EQ2 was dominated by WOW, how can anyone with any sense claim the genre is spiraling downward?
Without WOW the genre would hardly have moved. Darkfall or Pirates or Dark & Light or Tabula Rasa would actually be considered quality titles if WOW never existed. How sad would we be if people were actually praising those? Some of you call WOW crap or cheap. Obviously you're living in an alternate universe where quality is judged by how FEW people play a game instead of how many. Critical acclaim means nothing and obsurity is a sign of quality. What a backwards way to judge games. I'm not saying being obsure means a game is bad, but in most cases when it comes to MMOs it does. If loads of people want to pay a fee every month to play a game when there are LOADS of alternatives, theres nothing crappy or bad about it. There will still be hardcore MMOs out there for people to enjoy. But don't blame AAA developers for not catering to a small niche. Too much money is being invested for them to appease YOU GUYS. A AAA developer has no interest in being niche or obsure. Thats what the indy titles are there for. To appease those elitists. Don't worry. Us normal guys won't be inflitrating YOUR games. You can have them.
Since WoW came on the scene ~5 years ago, the genre has exploded. Now, every development house seems to be looking at the MMOG market as "the next frontier" .. and WoW's success played a part in bringing that perception about. If anyone's hurting the genre at the moment, it's the companies who are releasing substandard games.
and you really can't see the connection here???
Regurgitated, worn out formulas relying on expensive marketing in order to cash in on the wow-crowd???
I prefer the days when we had less games of higher quality, myself.
Personally, so do I. But we are only a TINY fraction of the market. Blizzard has demonstrated that a HUGE market exists for what they have on offer. Year after year they continue to grow. Year after year millions and millions of people continue to freely give them money. That is the type of behavior that attracts the investors with the money to fund these type of AAA class games. Investors generally know little or NOTHING about games. All they really care about is risk and potential return on their investment(ROI). Factor that in to a business plan, and you can see why we have so many poorly executed WoW clones.
Comments
It's just sour grapes from the OP. The game market is doing fantastic without his advice.
It's just sour grapes from the OP. The game market is doing fantastic without his advice.
Actually, the OP and others have provided an interesting and insightful chain of reading, and raises good points for discussion.
And few people on these forums feel the MMORPG market is doing fantastic at this point in time. More would agree that its staggering and in need of a shot in the arm to break it from its paralysis caused by the phennomen known as WOW.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It's just sour grapes from the OP. The game market is doing fantastic without his advice.
Actually, the OP and others have provided an interesting and insightful chain of reading, and raises good points for discussion.
And few people on these forums feel the MMORPG market is doing fantastic at this point in time. More would agree that its staggering and in need of a shot in the arm to break it from its paralysis caused by the phennomen known as WOW.
Thank you.
I've thought of another reason. When you buy, say, a music album, or a movie ticket, or a vdieogame... You generally do it once. That's it. There's no financial commitmennt involved, even for a traditional non-MMO online games. But with MMOs, it's suddenly a problem - you have ti pay every month. Sure, it's only 15 bucks. But with the influx of a more "casual" gamer into the picture (and I should say "casual" approach) people act much more catiously (borderline paranoid) about their MMO choices. That's why a lot of them try the trial/first free month and leave the games. "Yeah, it's not bad, but my 15$/mo still go to WoW". And that's exactly why developers might one day give the hell up. It's not Counter Strike.
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
Cry cry cry cry cry cry.
Fist of all great games are coming, and no they will not be as popular as the "in-thing"
The "in-thing" is always crap, in music, tv, anything.
But yes great games are coming and most people on this forums are ignoring them because they aren't enough like WoW, or the beloved Darkfall.
For instance Lego Universe - possibly the most creative massive user experience today. Yet no one on this forum talks about it. Why? Seriously why?
ToR - BioWare makes great RPGs, yet most people on this forums are calling it a WoW clone before it even comes out. It won't be a WoW clone. And no it won't be Darkfall clone either – sorry.
Secret World has huge potential - just because of the name funcom most people on this forum don't want to try it out. The dev team making it is not the same team that made AoC.
And right now I'm having a great time making my own missions in CoV.
So yes WoW is item grinding crap, but guess what, that's what people what. Other MMOs had their change to be number one, and they didn't do it. Maybe there won't be any good MMOs in the future – perhaps players need to look at games that aren't MMOs. Mass Effect, FO3 and many others are worth playing.
You haven't read the thread, at all, have you?
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
I think the quote-train has been derailed... Actually the entire thread seems to be. The POINT to this thread seems to be more than WoW is not beneficial to the market place. It has become a monopoly and is forcing everyones hand. Whether its good or not as a game isn't really even up for debate (heck I play WoW everyday). Without the open market place there is no room for growth or change. But this isn't the first game genre that this has happeend to and it shows that there is still hope that MMORPG companies will continue trying to give us something that is different from WoW and not just the same.
I can see it now... US Department of "Justice" has filed suit against Blizzard Entertainment (makers of the globally popular MMO World of Warcraft) . The Do"J" claims that WoW is a illegal monopoly whose success has damaged the entertainment market and seeks to have its 11 million players ordered to play Blizzards failing competitors games.
"Without the open market place"?? This is entirely the *result* of an *open* market place. You do realize that the entire point of this is to make the best possible profit? Blizzard has demonstrated exactly how to do just that. Is it any wonder that many others are attempting to tap in to that methodology? Millions and millions of people are *freely* giving Blizzard money each and every month for their game. That is the very ESSENCE of a free/open market. Given that these games cost millions and millions (of other peoples money) to produce, its hardly surprising that the groups involved will tend to follow certain established patterns. Do I like it? Not really. I've been playing these games since UO. But any other approach than that of a free market will likely have much more unpleasent results.
I think the quote-train has been derailed... Actually the entire thread seems to be. The POINT to this thread seems to be more than WoW is not beneficial to the market place. It has become a monopoly and is forcing everyones hand. Whether its good or not as a game isn't really even up for debate (heck I play WoW everyday). Without the open market place there is no room for growth or change. But this isn't the first game genre that this has happeend to and it shows that there is still hope that MMORPG companies will continue trying to give us something that is different from WoW and not just the same.
I can see it now... US Department of "Justice" has filed suit against Blizzard Entertainment (makers of the globally popular MMO World of Warcraft) . The Do"J" claims that WoW is a illegal monopoly whose success has damaged the entertainment market and seeks to have its 11 million players ordered to play Blizzards failing competitors games.
"Without the open market place"?? This is entirely the *result* of an *open* market place. You do realize that the entire point of this is to make the best possible profit? Blizzard has demonstrated exactly how to do just that. Is it any wonder that many others are attempting to tap in to that methodology? Millions and millions of people are *freely* giving Blizzard money each and every month for their game. That is the very ESSENCE of a free/open market. Given that these games cost millions and millions (of other peoples money) to produce, its hardly surprising that the groups involved will tend to follow certain established patterns. Do I like it? Not really. I've been playing these games since UO. But any other approach than that of a free market will likely have much more unpleasent results.
And you've missed the point again. I've never said it's "bad", or "good". I've only said, that it can just as well stop big-time developers from investing into MMOs altogether, leaving only small-time companies... And WoW.
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
according to that logic, every resturaunt in the country should be serving Big Macs...in fact they would be foolish not to, right??
There's just one flaw to that..some chefs prefer to make a quality product, and let the mass market be damned.
Cheap, fast and easy =/= better.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
and you really can't see the connection here???
Regurgitated, worn out formulas relying on expensive marketing in order to cash in on the wow-crowd???
I prefer the days when we had less games of higher quality, myself.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
I think the OP is right in his analysis of the community factor in WoWs continued success but I dont agree on his black view on what it means for the community in general.
Lets take a short historic perspective. What happened shortly after WoWs fantastic success? Well everyone else tried to make WoW2 to get a piece of the pie. Both AoC and WaR begang development shortly after WoW came out. Now we see that they cannot compete on WoWs terms so people learn.
What is happening now is invention instead of copying. People have realized that to be successful you have to be creative and create something new and different and then hope that enough people like it for it to be profitable.
This is a great inviroment for everyone. For the people who like the traditional and sure there is WoW and for those who have different taste new stuff is comming out that caters to their specific taste.
We just got Darkfall and TCoS both games that in no way try to compete with WoW but who offers a completely different experience. Darkfall might be an unpolished gangfest but many many people LOVE it with a passion because it give them exactly what they wanted. TCoS might be a weird surealistic game without items as we usually see them in MMOs but it is godsent to those who like a more FPS type MMO and hate the Trinity.
And what do we have in the future, we have Aion that is a traditional MMO but seems to compete with WoW on quality and content, thats fine but I doubt it will be as successful as people expect (even though the company is probably the most professional in the world). We have the Agency, DC heroes, Champions online, that Crime game and Kotor online ... and the secret world. NONE of those are WoW competitors, they instead say we cater to a specific kind of gamer here we offer enjoyment in our strange and different way.
So the industry fragments and become chaotic and in that enviroment something great will emerge. It wont get WoWs success ever again but it will be profitable and will give people who are tired of wow a chance to have fun. So everyone wins (except the people who make poor games that try to compete with WoW).
"You are the hero our legends have foretold will save our tribe, therefore please go kill 10 pigs."
It's not the fault of WoW that all other mmorpgs are shit. This is why people stick to WoW because theres nothing better to play and everything is like 5 years old or just a poor WoW clone. Looking on the horizon theres only one mmorpg that'll attract the interest of the mainstream crowd and that's ToR.
Developers need to stop making shit buggy WoW clones and start to innovate. I mean theres room for a Planetside 2 now and guess what WoW has opened all the potential Planetside 2 players up because when the first one came out people didn't want to pay a monthly fee. However now people who play WoW also player Online FPS like COD 4 so if Planetside 2 looks good then everyone wants a giant scale mmoFPS and will try it.
However SOE are wasting their time with shit like The Agency and DC Online that noone cares about.
Not trying to be derisive, but there's a big missing link in the OP. New MMORPG players are born every day.
If you quit playing MMORPGs, if you are burned out on fantasy games, dont' like EQ/WoW clones, don't like the Holy Trinity of Tank Nuke Healer, nobody cares because you will be replaced double, triple, and more.
Will new niche games come out that cater to you? Probably they will. Will the current MMORPG genre die just because you're tired of it? No. RIght now, there's some 14 year old somewhere logging on to an MMORPG for the very first time in their short lives and the experience will be all brand new and shiny for them.
Sigh... It's not about me. It's not about you. It's not even about other companies. It's about WoW, having monopoly over the genre, just because everyone plays it. Nobody wants to play anything else, because all their friends play WoW. And they're only marketed WoW. And they only see WoW. And that's what I (and some others) have been trying to tell for seven pages
Allright, thread derailed, I'll politely step away from the conversation. This turned out to be a greater filter, than any game...
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
I wouldn't call WoW a monopoly, considering games like LotRO, EVE, WAR, and EQ2 manage to pull in AT LEAST 200k subs
and that's only really counting the western games.
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Guys! I'm hopelessly lost in a mountain of mole hills! Them damn moles!
Your posts are really amusing to me. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, and clearly zero real world experience in any topic.
No restaurant in the world says "we will make this food, let the market be damned! We would rather have 10 loyal people come in every night, in a restaurant that seats 200, than be flooded with Lemmings who like Big Macs!" This is so idiotic I don't even know why I am responding. A restaurant, though not a great anology, but a restaurant, just like an MMO, is a for profit business. Any successful restaurant is serving food they THINK people want. Sometimes they are wrong and go out of business, but it starts with serving food, or creating an atmosphere, or creating a good price point, that they think will attract a "full house". To think otherwise is completely delusional.
You could not be more wrong. It is all about ME.
I wouldn't call WoW a monopoly, considering games like LotRO, EVE, WAR, and EQ2 manage to pull in AT LEAST 200k subs
and that's only really counting the western games.
No, WoW is an anomaly. Truthfully, I don't even think Blizzard knows how to recreate WoW's success but we will see when they release their new game.
As for all this talk of a WoW killer, I trully hope there never is one but as long as developers keep thinking they can dethrone WoW we are going to see the same crap over and over again. Gone are the days of innovation, welcome to the days of recycling.
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You wouldn't understand
But what you have been trying to "say" for 7 pages is just incorrect. Significant % of WoW players try these other games that come out, it's just that they can't hold peoples attention like WoW (btw, I haven't played WoW for over 3 years). If the other games were great, they would expand by word of mouth. They aren't great, that is the bottom line. Your thread just has the venom pointed in the wrong direction.
It should be pointed at the other development studios for releasing uninspired crap, rather then WoW for maintaining a well made product. Were people angry at the Beattles for the hundreds of bands that imitated them?
*Slaps self in face for comparing WoW to the Beatles.*
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
No, WoW is an anomaly. Truthfully, I don't even think Blizzard knows how to recreate WoW's success but we will see when they release their new game.
If Blizzard can do it again, they would be the first.
So far no company or dev has released a second MMORPG that is as good or better than their first release.
EQ2, decent, not as good as EQ.
AC2 a flop compared to AC.
WAR made by some of the same devs that worked on DAoC, not comparable to DAoC.
Tabula Rasa made by Garriot, a miserable failure compared to UO.
Vanguard made by a dev that made EQ, not nearly as successful as EQ.
Oh I'm sorry. I forget that if no one plays a game its obviously BETTER and not cheap. Here's a little secret, WOW is not food. WOW is fast AND its slow,, its casual AND its hardcore. Kids play, adults play it AND MMO vets play it. Nerds play it AND normal people play it. Until some of you elitist nuckleheads get it through your thick skulls that WOW's quality is unquestionable, all your problems will be solved.
No MMO is forced to copy WOW. Not a one. If they need a million customers to keep the game running, then they wll have to offer a higher quality game that offers more modes of play than something like Darkfall or Pirates that caters to only 1 niche group.
I'm so sorry that some of you are so enlightened and above the rest of the dregs of gamers out there because you find old style gameplay appealing. I'm so sorry you need to be punished constantly to feel like your gametime is meaningful and worthwhile. I'm so sorry you feel cheated by the masses. I'm so sorry the genre has been stolen away from your pale, bony or extremely plump, expert MMo fingers. I'm so sorry you're upset that the genre has in your eyes, taken a turn for the worse even though every sign proves otherwise. Without WOW the genre would be dominated by EQ2 right now and what a sad state of affairs we'd be in. Considering how quickly EQ2 was dominated by WOW, how can anyone with any sense claim the genre is spiraling downward?
Without WOW the genre would hardly have moved. Darkfall or Pirates or Dark & Light or Tabula Rasa would actually be considered quality titles if WOW never existed. How sad would we be if people were actually praising those? Some of you call WOW crap or cheap. Obviously you're living in an alternate universe where quality is judged by how FEW people play a game instead of how many. Critical acclaim means nothing and obsurity is a sign of quality. What a backwards way to judge games. I'm not saying being obsure means a game is bad, but in most cases when it comes to MMOs it does. If loads of people want to pay a fee every month to play a game when there are LOADS of alternatives, theres nothing crappy or bad about it. There will still be hardcore MMOs out there for people to enjoy. But don't blame AAA developers for not catering to a small niche. Too much money is being invested for them to appease YOU GUYS. A AAA developer has no interest in being niche or obsure. Thats what the indy titles are there for. To appease those elitists. Don't worry. Us normal guys won't be inflitrating YOUR games. You can have them.
and you really can't see the connection here???
Regurgitated, worn out formulas relying on expensive marketing in order to cash in on the wow-crowd???
I prefer the days when we had less games of higher quality, myself.
Personally, so do I. But we are only a TINY fraction of the market. Blizzard has demonstrated that a HUGE market exists for what they have on offer. Year after year they continue to grow. Year after year millions and millions of people continue to freely give them money. That is the type of behavior that attracts the investors with the money to fund these type of AAA class games. Investors generally know little or NOTHING about games. All they really care about is risk and potential return on their investment(ROI). Factor that in to a business plan, and you can see why we have so many poorly executed WoW clones.