I suppose that in order for this thread to actually go anywhere of use, someone should actually define the word "Sandbox". Otherwise we are simply going to end up with an argument of semantics.
And that's the problem. None of these threads ever go anywhere because there is no "World Sandbox Game Standards Committee " that defines what such a game really involves, so we end up with everyone creating their own definitions.
Games like WOW, AOC and WAR fall on the left side of the line, while games like Darkfall, EVE, UO fall on the right side to varying degrees.
Of course, as we see from the debate in this thread, some folks think certain features are a "must have" in a sandbox game, say like player housing in the game world, and w/o it they'll toss out the entire game.
I don't agree with defining games on one or two features, but prefer to look at the entire package, and based on these criteria, feel that DF clearly falls to the right side of the line, even if it doesn't reach the levels of UO/SWG (yet)
Very fair post. I too am waiting for more of the fluff features to be fleshed out in Darkfall. That being said, there is no denying that the game is a sandbox.
The lack of game features does not make a game a sandbox. A sandbox game (eve, uo) gives you a ton of tools to do different things and play the game in different ways.
All of the 'things' that people list about darkfall (exploration, crafting etc) can be found in WOW. You cannot realistically be an explorer or crafter in DF without training your combat skills, just like you cannot be an explorer or crafter in WOW without training some combat skills. Yes, you could technically just run away from everything, but that is true as much in WOW as it is in DF.
UO and EVE obtained the title as sandbox by having a ton of tools that players could just goof around. I remember being absolutely addicted to the 'plant' system in UO, or running a shop with 20 vendors, or decorating my house etc. DF has nothing like that.
Darkfall is going for the 'sandbox' title by having NOTHING to do. You run around and mindlessly pvp, but that is it. There are no other tools to do anything else. The economy is absolutely terrible, nobody crafts or sells anything.
You cannot realistically be an explorer or crafter in DF without training your combat skills
Wrong.
Darkfall lacks the maturity of games that have been out for close to a decade, but fluff will come in time, they have already begun patching some in.
If you think that Darkfall isn't a sandbox because you can't plant little flowers, you need to seek help. I guess Morrowind wasn't a sandbox game either.
The rulset of Darkfall puts no limit on the character, there is no linear progression, there are no zones, no instances, no classes, no levels, NOTHING stopping you from doing what you want to do. Pirate, explorer, crafter, PKer, anti-PKer, merc, general, scout, conqueror, or just someone who wants to roleplay a lunatic on an island in the middle of nowhere killing anyone who lands there.
It's a sandbox, and if you can't see it, then you're lost.
I suppose that in order for this thread to actually go anywhere of use, someone should actually define the word "Sandbox". Otherwise we are simply going to end up with an argument of semantics.
And that's the problem. None of these threads ever go anywhere because there is no "World Sandbox Game Standards Committee " that defines what such a game really involves, so we end up with everyone creating their own definitions. My preferred model goes like this: Fewer sandbox More sandbox features features <------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Games like WOW, AOC and WAR fall on the left side of the line, while games like Darkfall, EVE, UO fall on the right side to varying degrees. Of course, as we see from the debate in this thread, some folks think certain features are a "must have" in a sandbox game, say like player housing in the game world, and w/o it they'll toss out the entire game. I don't agree with defining games on one or two features, but prefer to look at the entire package, and based on these criteria, feel that DF clearly falls to the right side of the line, even if it doesn't reach the levels of UO/SWG (yet)
Very fair post. I too am waiting for more of the fluff features to be fleshed out in Darkfall. That being said, there is no denying that the game is a sandbox.
Now let's see how long before trolls get you.
It's a sandbox core..
But with so many features missing you will end up with a world full of clones..
There needs to be a wide array of skills to choose from, and all of them needs to be as good as any other skill.
For example : There is no pickpocketing skill
And without a pickpocketing skill you cant be a thief !!
Ohh well you can be a murderer and a thief ..But that is NOT the same..
When this game finally gets all of the intended skills of 500 or so(In 5 years or so)this game will be sandbox, until then it's just a retards haven !!!
Its a shame that UO still holds the title as one the most freeform MMO out there - even through its extreme transformation post-Age of Shadows. The closest I have ever been to that old UO feeling was pre-NGE SWG.
I have high hopes for Darkfall. I really hope it shapes up. They've got the groundwork laid for a fantastic game here.
I suppose that in order for this thread to actually go anywhere of use, someone should actually define the word "Sandbox". Otherwise we are simply going to end up with an argument of semantics.
And that's the problem. None of these threads ever go anywhere because there is no "World Sandbox Game Standards Committee " that defines what such a game really involves, so we end up with everyone creating their own definitions.
Games like WOW, AOC and WAR fall on the left side of the line, while games like Darkfall, EVE, UO fall on the right side to varying degrees.
Of course, as we see from the debate in this thread, some folks think certain features are a "must have" in a sandbox game, say like player housing in the game world, and w/o it they'll toss out the entire game.
I don't agree with defining games on one or two features, but prefer to look at the entire package, and based on these criteria, feel that DF clearly falls to the right side of the line, even if it doesn't reach the levels of UO/SWG (yet)
Very fair post. I too am waiting for more of the fluff features to be fleshed out in Darkfall. That being said, there is no denying that the game is a sandbox.
Now let's see how long before trolls get you.
It's a sandbox core..
But with so many features missing you will end up with a world full of clones..
There needs to be a wide array of skills to choose from, and all of them needs to be as good as any other skill.
For example : There is no pickpocketing skill
And without a pickpocketing skill you cant be a thief !!
Ohh well you can be a murderer and a thief ..But that is NOT the same..
When this game finally gets all of the intended skills of 500 or so(In 5 years or so)this game will be sandbox, until then it's just a retards haven !!!
/junker
Didn't take long, though this one seems to be less trolling more just uneducated.
Pickpocketing was never an intended skill, and thank God for that. Having a random chance of losing your items and having nothing you can do about it is foolish.
Sure you can be a thief, scavenge tombstones and run before the owner of the loot can get to you. No it's not totally the same, but it is a viable option, its how I got my initial wealth.
The game IS a sandbox, just because it lacks the ability to collect rare plants and stick them in a house doesn't change that fact, the game is only a month old.
You cannot realistically be an explorer or crafter in DF without training your combat skills
Wrong.
Darkfall lacks the maturity of games that have been out for close to a decade, but fluff will come in time, they have already begun patching some in.
If you think that Darkfall isn't a sandbox because you can't plant little flowers, you need to seek help. I guess Morrowind wasn't a sandbox game either.
The rulset of Darkfall puts no limit on the character, there is no linear progression, there are no zones, no instances, no classes, no levels, NOTHING stopping you from doing what you want to do. Pirate, explorer, crafter, PKer, anti-PKer, merc, general, scout, conqueror, or just someone who wants to roleplay a lunatic on an island in the middle of nowhere killing anyone who lands there.
It's a sandbox, and if you can't see it, then you're lost.
And you can do that all in WOW. I can, at level 1, run my character from ogrimmar to Dun Murogh and try and PK the players there. I can, within 30 mins of creating a character, run around and mine/skin/craft. I can, at lvl 1, run all around the world and explore. WOW is probably the 'least' sandbox game there is, but everything you can do in DF, you can do in WOW. I have an achievement in WOW for killing 50 players who attacked my city. I got that achievement in a few weeks.
The reason I brought up flowers in UO, is because it is exactly the type of tool that sandbox games add. They add a ton of those little systems to occupy player's time..... like decorating your house, remodeling your house, setting up your vendors. They are tools that anyone can do.
Everything you listed about DF can be done in EVERY game..... which leads me to my original comment. The lack of features is NOT the defining feature of a sandbox. A sandbox game is one that has a lot of features and tools that players can use to have fun. Darkfall has nothing but an empty map and crappy combat.
You cannot realistically be an explorer or crafter in DF without training your combat skills
Wrong.
Darkfall lacks the maturity of games that have been out for close to a decade, but fluff will come in time, they have already begun patching some in.
If you think that Darkfall isn't a sandbox because you can't plant little flowers, you need to seek help. I guess Morrowind wasn't a sandbox game either.
The rulset of Darkfall puts no limit on the character, there is no linear progression, there are no zones, no instances, no classes, no levels, NOTHING stopping you from doing what you want to do. Pirate, explorer, crafter, PKer, anti-PKer, merc, general, scout, conqueror, or just someone who wants to roleplay a lunatic on an island in the middle of nowhere killing anyone who lands there.
It's a sandbox, and if you can't see it, then you're lost.
And you can do that all in WOW. I can, at level 1, run my character from ogrimmar to Dun Murogh and try and PK the players there. I can, within 30 mins of creating a character, run around and mine/skin/craft. I can, at lvl 1, run all around the world and explore. WOW is probably the 'least' sandbox game there is, but everything you can do in DF, you can do in WOW. I have an achievement in WOW for killing 50 players who attacked my city. I got that achievement in a few weeks.
Wow, I almost threw up reading that. WoW is the game that invented the linear, single path dumbed down theme park genre. It got its roots from EverQuest but at least EverQuest gave you options.
None of the things you said were remotely true, and if you can't see the difference, I say again, you are lost.
You cannot realistically be an explorer or crafter in DF without training your combat skills
Wrong.
Darkfall lacks the maturity of games that have been out for close to a decade, but fluff will come in time, they have already begun patching some in.
If you think that Darkfall isn't a sandbox because you can't plant little flowers, you need to seek help. I guess Morrowind wasn't a sandbox game either.
The rulset of Darkfall puts no limit on the character, there is no linear progression, there are no zones, no instances, no classes, no levels, NOTHING stopping you from doing what you want to do. Pirate, explorer, crafter, PKer, anti-PKer, merc, general, scout, conqueror, or just someone who wants to roleplay a lunatic on an island in the middle of nowhere killing anyone who lands there.
It's a sandbox, and if you can't see it, then you're lost.
And you can do that all in WOW. I can, at level 1, run my character from ogrimmar to Dun Murogh and try and PK the players there. I can, within 30 mins of creating a character, run around and mine/skin/craft. I can, at lvl 1, run all around the world and explore. WOW is probably the 'least' sandbox game there is, but everything you can do in DF, you can do in WOW. I have an achievement in WOW for killing 50 players who attacked my city. I got that achievement in a few weeks.
The reason I brought up flowers in UO, is because it is exactly the type of tool that sandbox games add. They add a ton of those little systems to occupy player's time..... like decorating your house, remodeling your house, setting up your vendors. They are tools that anyone can do.
Everything you listed about DF can be done in EVERY game..... which leads me to my original comment. The lack of features is NOT the defining feature of a sandbox. A sandbox game is one that has a lot of features and tools that players can use to have fun. Darkfall has nothing but an empty map and crappy combat.
I think i have to quote Anton Chigur from the movie "No Country For Old Men" : You have no idea what you talk about, do you?
It is a sanbox simply because you, as a player, can do pretty much whatever you want to do, with the tools provided by the devs.
You want to be PVP killer, fine You can do that in WoW too. Not until you've done enough quests to reach a big enough level for the game to set up pvp play-dates for you. Unlike Darkfall you can't just pick up a sword and level up by fighting players, without ever having the need to fight a single mob. You actually can get you newbie level 10 character and travel to an enemy starter town and find people of your level that will fight you. I've tried and achieved it with an undead travelling to Stormwind and fighting newbies. I strongly discourage anyone to even consider doing it ... Also pvp in WoW is much less fullfilling since you'll never fight for the honor of your clan, or to keep the precious city or ship you helped build and losing and winning doesn't actually matter much. You can play battlegrounds at low levels of course and if you actually get above 20 there is plenty of encouters with alliance that are doing same quest as you and saying PvP in WoW is less fullfulling and winning dont actually matters is pure ignorance you would be surprised how much fighting in arenas can be fullfilling if you get fight at high rating and aswell winning but my point is you can be PvP killer in WoW aswell not that you can be PvP killer since level 1 but beign able PvP since level 1 dont make it sandbox this makes it Counter-strike my friend. It appears that we have a very different definition of what pvp should be like and what it's purpose should be. For me Lineage 2 set the standard and DF improved upon it. Also, when there are different forms of pvp set by the developers of the game that have different rulesets, different negative and positive results for the contestants and can be "unlocked" by reaching a certain level, that my friend is screaming themepark a mile away. You want to be master Crafter, fine You can do that in WoW too and there is better crafting than in this "sandbox" No, you can't be a master crafter without first leveling enough to unlock the last master crafter level. This dependency on level is what makes a wow a themepark and a level based game. Yeah right like I'm saying something like this all I'm saying you can be Master Crafter aswell in WoW but you are right but now comes the catch and that is the crafting in Darkfall is really not worth a year old sausage so as crafting is now it is sandbox but it is in terrible state so we can come to conclusion the game is Lame Sandbox game. The difference with WoW is that in WoW, you can't be a master crafter unless you are a master warrior. Opinions about whether the crafting system is a good implementation or not are irrelevant to the current subject. Personally I do think that DF system could be much better and a lot more options should be available. You want to slay monsters, fine Even the worst MMORPG will let you hit monster. Indeed. You want to own cities, fine One point! You want to be pirate Joe, fine Wtf? "Wtf" is not a rebuttal. Granted, pirating would be a lot more fun if the game had local banking but that's a different subject. Nevertheless you can still hijack ships in Darkfall. Well problem is i couldnt work out what exactly means beign pirate Joe but if you can hijack ships that Two points for me if it works. You want to explore, fine You can do that in WoW too. NO! Believe me, I've tried my best. The truth is that WoW is a land of boundaries with mountains heavily restricting travel and with seas of mobs that make it literally impossible for you to travel unless you've finished 763 quests first. And even if you do that my guess is that you will not be able to explore anything without dragging a train of agros behind you that can't actually hurt you. And on top of that the areas of the map are not actually where they are supposed to be. With my undead char I tried to swim next to the shores and reach Quel'Thalas to see with my own eyes and when I actually got there I discovered it was on a different zone and found nothing but rocks although I was at the correct location on the World Map. WoW is the worst RPG for exploring I have ever played. There is as much as exploring as the Half-Life and other FPS games (roller coaster exploration). There is as much as exploring as the Half life and other FPS games. Did you even played the game?There is plenty of locations and every zone is diffrent when i was playing for the first time i was completly smashed what loads of exploring and meeting new enemies and other lands is awaiting me every zone have unique enemies flora and even quests are around the lore ( Finding out what is wrong with water in Tanaris for example ) Can you explore without having to level first? No. Can you enjoy the landcape without worrying about aggroing the sea of mobs around you? No. Can you pick a random direction and keep travelling straight until you reach the sea? 90% of the time the answer is No, in darkfall it's 10% of the time. Can you climb any mountain you see? Not by a long shot. Can you build a boat (or even swim) and explore distant islands? No. If you see a spot on the map can you travel there on foot or swim, without having to use any means of fast travel and without crossing especially designated "zone gates"? For the most part, No. There are even regions on the map that the Devs have not implemented yet, and there is a good chance they never will, talk about a feature complete game 5 years after launch ... The answer to all these questions in Darkfall is yes, and that's what makes it a good exploration game. Now I'm sure that WoW has small surprises like lore npcs, mobs and items, scripted cutscenes, a few beautiful landscapes and crap like that, but they do not make the game a good exploration rpg. I would suggest trying Elder Scrolls Morrowind or Oblivion as a frame of referance, for what most people consider an RPG good for exploration. You want to be a scammer of thief, fine You can do that in WoW too though you wont live long with it and beign on every ignore list isn't good idea.Not nearly as effective or fun, especially with the auction system in place. Very very wrong i see you are not skilled with scamming in WoW using Auction house but dont let get into this discussion. Granted. You want to be a retard, fine Included in Darkfall launch buttom! Being a retard in Darfkall provides a much funner gameplay experience compared to WoW. Well cant see anything funny about beign retard but if you found acting like someone with 70IQ funnier in Darkfall than in WoW you are welcome. You want to just do a bit of this and that, fine Yeah sure you can do that in WoW too. No, you can't. You can't have more than two professions at the same time, and you can't level professions without having to gain XP Levels parallely to unlock them. And more importantly, you can't be any combination of melee, tanker, archer, nuker, buffer, healer, aside from what your class provides. Yes we can!Oh well heard Obama too much and I'm living so far from USA well anyway about profession i told you and about these class combinations.... What combinations in Darkfall damn are everyone is two handed guy in heavy armor and that it is this makes it bad game not sandbox my friend The current balance issues between builts were obviously not intended. Aparently the devs are bad at balancing weapons and armor. Still, having the freedom to choose a particular built and have everyone look the same until the game is rebalanced is superior to having unbalanced classes and in case you picked the wrong one the answer is "Tough luck, reroll". Once (if) they rebalance and diversify builds we will see all the plausible combinations, but until then, touche. btw you CAN be tanker and nuker even tanker and buffer aswell it is all about build but after Wotlk every tanker is pretty much nuker. You can be nothing that your class is not intended to allow you to do. For example I would guess that you can't be a successful rogue and healer at the same time, or that you can't be a paladin that can travel around invisible. I could be mistaken but I do not claim to be a WoW guru and I'm sure that there is a very large amount of impossible combinations.
So I must say, if you think this is not a sandbox, perhaps it is a matter of your own, unusual, definition of the word, because for all intents and purposes, the core of this game is nothing but one. From what i see WoW gives pretty much same options like this "sandbox" and WoW is called themepark. Try again. Now the another thing is that Darkfall is working like with levels because your skills improve only on 1-25 25-50 50-75 75-100 In level based games your level defines you. It designates what mobs you can kill and what mobs award xp for killing and it only increases by killing mobs/doing quests. Many game aspects are intertwined and dependent upon it (like WoW proffessions) and you can only enjoy a very small fraction of the game without having to increase it. There is no such concept in Darkfall and no amount of Tiers that each skill possesses will change that. Even if there were 2 skill levels for each skill (1-50 51-100) it would still be a skill based game for the above reason. For me Darkfall is Very badly made Counter-Strike in Sandbox game. Good for you.
Now granted, Darkfall is not nearly as sandboxy as it could be and my guess is that most players hope for more sand and posibilities enhancing solo expeirience to be added in the future, nevertheless comparing it with WoW is the definition of ignorance.
Furthermore, I would like to add that most of my WoW experience comes from my playing of the WoW Trial for a few days to see its elements for myself. I had an idea, but I couldn't believe how bad did Blizzard rape the Warcraft concept, at least what I though that a Warcraft MMO should be like. Of course I droped my trial account in a heartbeat once I figured I had been invited in Darkfall beta.
It is a sanbox simply because you, as a player, can do pretty much whatever you want to do, with the tools provided by the devs.
You want to be PVP killer, fine You want to be master Crafter, fine You want to slay monsters, fine You want to own cities, fine You want to be pirate Joe, fine You want to explore, fine You want to be a scammer of thief, fine You want to be a retard, fine You want to just do a bit of this and that, fine
So I must say, if you think this is not a sandbox, perhaps it is a matter of your own, unusual, definition of the word, because for all intents and purposes, the core of this game is nothing but one.
You can do everything you can do in Darkfall in every game with PvP I've ever played. With the exception of bulding cities you can do all those things in WoW. So are all those games sandboxes too? The answer is yes. A sandbox is a nonlinear game and all MMOs are. Mixing and matching features defines a particular game it does not define a genre.
Same ,you can do all of these things in Vanguard and do them in a bigger world.
You cannot realistically be an explorer or crafter in DF without training your combat skills
Wrong.
Darkfall lacks the maturity of games that have been out for close to a decade, but fluff will come in time, they have already begun patching some in.
If you think that Darkfall isn't a sandbox because you can't plant little flowers, you need to seek help. I guess Morrowind wasn't a sandbox game either.
The rulset of Darkfall puts no limit on the character, there is no linear progression, there are no zones, no instances, no classes, no levels, NOTHING stopping you from doing what you want to do. Pirate, explorer, crafter, PKer, anti-PKer, merc, general, scout, conqueror, or just someone who wants to roleplay a lunatic on an island in the middle of nowhere killing anyone who lands there.
It's a sandbox, and if you can't see it, then you're lost.
And you can do that all in WOW. I can, at level 1, run my character from ogrimmar to Dun Murogh and try and PK the players there. I can, within 30 mins of creating a character, run around and mine/skin/craft. I can, at lvl 1, run all around the world and explore. WOW is probably the 'least' sandbox game there is, but everything you can do in DF, you can do in WOW. I have an achievement in WOW for killing 50 players who attacked my city. I got that achievement in a few weeks.
Wow, I almost threw up reading that. WoW is the game that invented the linear, single path dumbed down theme park genre. It got its roots from EverQuest but at least EverQuest gave you options.
None of the things you said were remotely true, and if you can't see the difference, I say again, you are lost.
read the red part again. I said WOW is NOT a sandbox game... yet it still has as many 'sandbox' features as DF.
What isn't true? You can't run to the enemy starting area at lvl 1 and pk against people there? You can't run around and explore the map at lvl 1? You can't defend your home city from enemy players who are attacking it? ( I have the acheivement to show you can).
So you are saying DF is a sandbox because you can go anywhere? Then why does it have starter areas? It's the same as WOW.. there are areas that are 'recommended' for certain levels, but you can go there any time you want. Can a new character in DF kill a dragon? No, same way a player in WOW can't kill a high level mob... but that doesn't mean you can't explore the map and run away from everything (same as df)
The definition of 'sandbox' is all about the tools. Does the game have a lot of tools that allow you to play? Darkfall has NOTHING.. NO TOOLS.. the lack of things to do is not a tool. Again, the least sandbox game, WOW, has a ton of sandbox features.. There are holidays ongoing almost all the time that have fun little side events that any player can do, there is a very active auction house/economy that any player can use, there are fishing, vanity pets, acheivements and a whole host of activities that ANYONE can do.
Darkfall has NO tools, just an empty map. In order for a sandbox to be fun, you need a shovel, a bucket and all the little toys that allow you to do things. In darkfall, you are just sitting on a pile of very boring sand with nothing to do. And with all the hacks, macros and exploits that are all over the place.. the sand you are sitting in smells a lot like a dog crapped in it.
I suppose that in order for this thread to actually go anywhere of use, someone should actually define the word "Sandbox". Otherwise we are simply going to end up with an argument of semantics.
And that's the problem. None of these threads ever go anywhere because there is no "World Sandbox Game Standards Committee " that defines what such a game really involves, so we end up with everyone creating their own definitions.
Games like WOW, AOC and WAR fall on the left side of the line, while games like Darkfall, EVE, UO fall on the right side to varying degrees.
Of course, as we see from the debate in this thread, some folks think certain features are a "must have" in a sandbox game, say like player housing in the game world, and w/o it they'll toss out the entire game.
I don't agree with defining games on one or two features, but prefer to look at the entire package, and based on these criteria, feel that DF clearly falls to the right side of the line, even if it doesn't reach the levels of UO/SWG (yet)
Kyleran wins the thread. once with his first post, and again with this one. all MMOs are "sandboxes" to some extent.
I suppose that in order for this thread to actually go anywhere of use, someone should actually define the word "Sandbox". Otherwise we are simply going to end up with an argument of semantics.
And that's the problem. None of these threads ever go anywhere because there is no "World Sandbox Game Standards Committee " that defines what such a game really involves, so we end up with everyone creating their own definitions.
Games like WOW, AOC and WAR fall on the left side of the line, while games like Darkfall, EVE, UO fall on the right side to varying degrees.
Of course, as we see from the debate in this thread, some folks think certain features are a "must have" in a sandbox game, say like player housing in the game world, and w/o it they'll toss out the entire game.
I don't agree with defining games on one or two features, but prefer to look at the entire package, and based on these criteria, feel that DF clearly falls to the right side of the line, even if it doesn't reach the levels of UO/SWG (yet)
Kyleran wins the thread. once with his first post, and again with this one. all MMOs are "sandboxes" to some extent.
{mod edit}
All games are sandboxes
Darkfall is a game
Therefore, darkfall is a sandbox
That is basically your argument?
I agree with you in a way, but when we talk about comparing DF's sandbox to UO, SWG or EVE... it's not even close. Those games all have a ton of tools and features that support a sandbox game... DF does not. DF has NO tools or features to support sandbox gameplay.. it's only feature is a lack of features. It's not a sandbox full of toys that you manipulate to have fun, it is a pile of sand with nothing in it. UO, SWG and EVE give you a huge pile of sand, but at the same time they have all kind of neat toys all over the place for you to have fun with in that sand.
And you can do that all in WOW. I can, at level 1, run my character from ogrimmar to Dun Murogh and try and PK the players there. I tried that, made a level 10 undead and went to Stormwind and fought noobs. The truth is that it will take you 5 hours because of all the mobs/guards killing you and once you get there hardly anyone will consent to pvp. The truth is that this whole plan is completely retarded and completely discouraged by the game rules. That's true, hardcore, FFA PVP WoW . I can, within 30 mins of creating a character, run around and mine/skin/craft. Your only obstacle in DF is getting your first miner's pick or whatever harvesting tool, and you can beg for it or even get one for free in toolboxes in the wilderness. After that there is no reason for you to equip a weapon for the rest of your life, and that will not stop you from being a grand master crafter. I can, at lvl 1, run all around the world and explore. I tried that. I tried to avoid mobs and travel while swimming paralelly to the shores to get where I wanted. I failed miserably, although I did swim all around the eastern kingdoms while enjoying the majesty of the empty randomized rocky shores. Please elaborate on how I can explore the world without killing mobs and I might start another free trial account.
You can't defend your home city from enemy players who are attacking it? ( I have the acheivement to show you can). Can you betray your city by killing the npcs that are guarding it? Can a new character in DF kill a dragon? One no, but I'm sure that every mob in the game will die if you attack it with the sufficient number of noobs. Unlike WoW, where a 40 level mob will not die even if you throw 1000 noobs at it, let alone big bosses. Generally the difference between skill levels is much less obvious in Darkfall compared to most MMOs. The definition of 'sandbox' is all about the tools. Does the game have a lot of tools that allow you to play? Darkfall has NOTHING.. NO TOOLS.. the lack of things to do is not a tool. Again, the least sandbox game, WOW, has a ton of sandbox features.. There are holidays ongoing almost all the time that have fun little side events that any player can do, there is a very active auction house/economy that any player can use, there are fishing, vanity pets, acheivements and a whole host of activities that ANYONE can do. Darkfall has NO tools, just an empty map. In order for a sandbox to be fun, you need a shovel, a bucket and all the little toys that allow you to do things. In darkfall, you are just sitting on a pile of very boring sand with nothing to do. And with all the hacks, macros and exploits that are all over the place.. the sand you are sitting in smells a lot like a dog crapped in it. Darkfall needs more sanbox features. Nobody argues against that. On the other hand, most players think that it has enough buckets and shovels to be considered a sandbox.
It is a sanbox simply because you, as a player, can do pretty much whatever you want to do, with the tools provided by the devs.
You want to be PVP killer, fine You can do that in WoW too. Not until you've done enough quests to reach a big enough level for the game to set up pvp play-dates for you. Unlike Darkfall you can't just pick up a sword and level up by fighting players, without ever having the need to fight a single mob. You actually can get you newbie level 10 character and travel to an enemy starter town and find people of your level that will fight you. I've tried and achieved it with an undead travelling to Stormwind and fighting newbies. I strongly discourage anyone to even consider doing it ... Also pvp in WoW is much less fullfilling since you'll never fight for the honor of your clan, or to keep the precious city or ship you helped build and losing and winning doesn't actually matter much. You can play battlegrounds at low levels of course and if you actually get above 20 there is plenty of encouters with alliance that are doing same quest as you and saying PvP in WoW is less fullfulling and winning dont actually matters is pure ignorance you would be surprised how much fighting in arenas can be fullfilling if you get fight at high rating and aswell winning but my point is you can be PvP killer in WoW aswell not that you can be PvP killer since level 1 but beign able PvP since level 1 dont make it sandbox this makes it Counter-strike my friend. It appears that we have a very different definition of what pvp should be like and what it's purpose should be. For me Lineage 2 set the standard and DF improved upon it. Also, when there are different forms of pvp set by the developers of the game that have different rulesets, different negative and positive results for the contestants and can be "unlocked" by reaching a certain level, that my friend is screaming themepark a mile away. I didn't played Lineage 2 and now the funny part..... Think about what you said if you can unlock something by reaching a certain level that means it is screaming themepark miles away well that is wrong by your theory EVERY game where something is reached by certain level is themepark think about what you said. You want to be master Crafter, fine You can do that in WoW too and there is better crafting than in this "sandbox" No, you can't be a master crafter without first leveling enough to unlock the last master crafter level. This dependency on level is what makes a wow a themepark and a level based game. Yeah right like I'm saying something like this all I'm saying you can be Master Crafter aswell in WoW but you are right but now comes the catch and that is the crafting in Darkfall is really not worth a year old sausage so as crafting is now it is sandbox but it is in terrible state so we can come to conclusion the game is Lame Sandbox game. The difference with WoW is that in WoW, you can't be a master crafter unless you are a master warrior. Opinions about whether the crafting system is a good implementation or not are irrelevant to the current subject. Personally I do think that DF system could be much better and a lot more options should be available. In Darkfall you cant just start crafting in peace to craft you must fight there are always players that are after your throat there is nothing like craft and never fight and crafting is anyway boring and no normal human existance can play style *never fight always craft* You want to slay monsters, fine Even the worst MMORPG will let you hit monster. Indeed. You want to own cities, fine One point! You want to be pirate Joe, fine Wtf? "Wtf" is not a rebuttal. Granted, pirating would be a lot more fun if the game had local banking but that's a different subject. Nevertheless you can still hijack ships in Darkfall. Well problem is i couldnt work out what exactly means beign pirate Joe but if you can hijack ships that Two points for me if it works. You want to explore, fine You can do that in WoW too. NO! Believe me, I've tried my best. The truth is that WoW is a land of boundaries with mountains heavily restricting travel and with seas of mobs that make it literally impossible for you to travel unless you've finished 763 quests first. And even if you do that my guess is that you will not be able to explore anything without dragging a train of agros behind you that can't actually hurt you. And on top of that the areas of the map are not actually where they are supposed to be. With my undead char I tried to swim next to the shores and reach Quel'Thalas to see with my own eyes and when I actually got there I discovered it was on a different zone and found nothing but rocks although I was at the correct location on the World Map. WoW is the worst RPG for exploring I have ever played. There is as much as exploring as the Half-Life and other FPS games (roller coaster exploration). There is as much as exploring as the Half life and other FPS games. Did you even played the game?There is plenty of locations and every zone is diffrent when i was playing for the first time i was completly smashed what loads of exploring and meeting new enemies and other lands is awaiting me every zone have unique enemies flora and even quests are around the lore ( Finding out what is wrong with water in Tanaris for example ) Can you explore without having to level first?Yeah you can but it is dangeroousCan you enjoy the landcape without worrying about aggroing the sea of mobs around you? Sure cant see why you love water that much but whatever there are just few sea monsters beyond darkshore barrens and tirisfal glades Can you pick a random direction and keep travelling straight until you reach the sea? Sorry This isnt sahara.90% of the time the answer is No, in darkfall it's 10% of the timeReally?. Can you climb any mountain you see?Lol climbing mountain? well if you call it that way in darkfall... Can you build a boat (or even swim) and explore distant islands? Oh water again you love it dont you?Well i cant see what for boats would be good in WoW when most of things are happening on land If you see a spot on the map can you travel there on foot or swim, without having to use any means of fast travel and without crossing especially designated "zone gates"? Not everytime but there you can sometimes without crosing zone gates and cant see why is that bad with explorating.. There are even regions on the map that the Devs have not implemented yet, and there is a good chance they never will, talk about a feature complete game 5 years after launch Just few one and really there is just one place that i would like to see and that is Gilneas. ... The answer to all these questions in Darkfall is yes, and that's what makes it a good exploration game.That makes it better exploration game? let me see... Is every Darkfall zone diffrent in flora?NO Can you in darkfall meet at least 45 percent of various monsters that are in WoW ?NO Have every zone in Darkfall its lore? NO! Now I'm sure that WoW has small surprises like lore npcs, mobs and items, scripted cutscenes, a few beautiful landscapes and crap like that, but they do not make the game a good exploration rpg. I would suggest trying Elder Scrolls Morrowind or Oblivion as a frame of referance, for what most people consider an RPG good for exploration. But here you are wrong they make game good exploration RPG I seriously doubt everyone wants just run through stupid same place for 2 hours without getting stoped by mountain or even mob.
You want to be a scammer of thief, fine
You can do that in WoW too though you wont live long with it and beign on every ignore list isn't good idea.Not nearly as effective or fun, especially with the auction system in place. Very very wrong i see you are not skilled with scamming in WoW using Auction house but dont let get into this discussion. Granted. You want to be a retard, fine Included in Darkfall launch buttom! Being a retard in Darfkall provides a much funner gameplay experience compared to WoW. Well cant see anything funny about beign retard but if you found acting like someone with 70IQ funnier in Darkfall than in WoW you are welcome. You want to just do a bit of this and that, fine Yeah sure you can do that in WoW too. No, you can't. You can't have more than two professions at the same time, and you can't level professions without having to gain XP Levels parallely to unlock them. And more importantly, you can't be any combination of melee, tanker, archer, nuker, buffer, healer, aside from what your class provides. Yes we can!Oh well heard Obama too much and I'm living so far from USA well anyway about profession i told you and about these class combinations.... What combinations in Darkfall damn are everyone is two handed guy in heavy armor and that it is this makes it bad game not sandbox my friend The current balance issues between builts were obviously not intended. Aparently the devs are bad at balancing weapons and armor. Still, having the freedom to choose a particular built and have everyone look the same until the game is rebalanced is superior to having unbalanced classes and in case you picked the wrong one the answer is "Tough luck, reroll". Once (if) they rebalance and diversify builds we will see all the plausible combinations, but until then, touche. I doubt we will see it but lets hope. btw you CAN be tanker and nuker even tanker and buffer aswell it is all about build but after Wotlk every tanker is pretty much nuker. You can be nothing that your class is not intended to allow you to do. For example I would guess that you can't be a successful rogue and healer at the same time, or that you can't be a paladin that can travel around invisible. I could be mistaken but I do not claim to be a WoW guru and I'm sure that there is a very large amount of impossible combinations.
Yup but that would make it very pretty much stupid and break all the game balance you talked about. So I must say, if you think this is not a sandbox, perhaps it is a matter of your own, unusual, definition of the word, because for all intents and purposes, the core of this game is nothing but one. From what i see WoW gives pretty much same options like this "sandbox" and WoW is called themepark. Try again. Now the another thing is that Darkfall is working like with levels because your skills improve only on 1-25 25-50 50-75 75-100 In level based games your level defines you. It designates what mobs you can kill and what mobs award xp for killing and it only increases by killing mobs/doing quests. Many game aspects are intertwined and dependent upon it (like WoW proffessions) and you can only enjoy a very small fraction of the game without having to increase it. There is no such concept in Darkfall and no amount of Tiers that each skill possesses will change that. Even if there were 2 skill levels for each skill (1-50 51-100) it would still be a skill based game for the above reason. About that skill system It seems you didnt understand It shouldnt meant that defines you I just said that game it is working SAME way like leveling up not that level make same diffrence notice the diffrence .
As you say i dont argue over that you can do as level 1 level 40 quest but now the catch is you say there is no such concept in Darkfall but that makes it dumb game because when you actually start game you are at it's top that means there is nothing to do expect fight.... So Counter-Strike with sandbox exploring it is!
For me Darkfall is Very badly made Counter-Strike in Sandbox game. Good for you. Guess so.PS: getting out of colors dude!
Now granted, Darkfall is not nearly as sandboxy as it could be and my guess is that most players hope for more sand and posibilities enhancing solo expeirience to be added in the future, nevertheless comparing it with WoW is the definition of ignorance.
Furthermore, I would like to add that most of my WoW experience comes from my playing of the WoW Trial for a few days to see its elements for myself. I had an idea, but I couldn't believe how bad did Blizzard rape the Warcraft concept, at least what I though that a Warcraft MMO should be like. Of course I droped my trial account in a heartbeat once I figured I had been invited in Darkfall beta.
It is a sanbox simply because you, as a player, can do pretty much whatever you want to do, with the tools provided by the devs.
You want to be PVP killer, fine You can do that in WoW too. Not until you've done enough quests to reach a big enough level for the game to set up pvp play-dates for you. Unlike Darkfall you can't just pick up a sword and level up by fighting players, without ever having the need to fight a single mob. You actually can get you newbie level 10 character and travel to an enemy starter town and find people of your level that will fight you. I've tried and achieved it with an undead travelling to Stormwind and fighting newbies. I strongly discourage anyone to even consider doing it ... Also pvp in WoW is much less fullfilling since you'll never fight for the honor of your clan, or to keep the precious city or ship you helped build and losing and winning doesn't actually matter much. You can play battlegrounds at low levels of course and if you actually get above 20 there is plenty of encouters with alliance that are doing same quest as you and saying PvP in WoW is less fullfulling and winning dont actually matters is pure ignorance you would be surprised how much fighting in arenas can be fullfilling if you get fight at high rating and aswell winning but my point is you can be PvP killer in WoW aswell not that you can be PvP killer since level 1 but beign able PvP since level 1 dont make it sandbox this makes it Counter-strike my friend. It appears that we have a very different definition of what pvp should be like and what it's purpose should be. For me Lineage 2 set the standard and DF improved upon it. Also, when there are different forms of pvp set by the developers of the game that have different rulesets, different negative and positive results for the contestants and can be "unlocked" by reaching a certain level, that my friend is screaming themepark a mile away. I didn't played Lineage 2 and now the funny part..... Think about what you said if you can unlock something by reaching a certain level that means it is screaming themepark miles away well that is wrong by your theory EVERY game where something is reached by certain level is themepark think about what you said. No, of course it makes perfect sense to unlock a superior item by skilling up crafting. I'm arguing against having X to Y level Raids, BGs, quests (and I'm sure there are more features) that also allow a certain number of players etc. In short, the whole instancing concept. Instancing is one of the defining features of themepark games. You want to be master Crafter, fine You can do that in WoW too and there is better crafting than in this "sandbox" No, you can't be a master crafter without first leveling enough to unlock the last master crafter level. This dependency on level is what makes a wow a themepark and a level based game. Yeah right like I'm saying something like this all I'm saying you can be Master Crafter aswell in WoW but you are right but now comes the catch and that is the crafting in Darkfall is really not worth a year old sausage so as crafting is now it is sandbox but it is in terrible state so we can come to conclusion the game is Lame Sandbox game. The difference with WoW is that in WoW, you can't be a master crafter unless you are a master warrior. Opinions about whether the crafting system is a good implementation or not are irrelevant to the current subject. Personally I do think that DF system could be much better and a lot more options should be available. In Darkfall you cant just start crafting in peace to craft you must fight there are always players that are after your throat there is nothing like craft and never fight and crafting is anyway boring and no normal human existance can play style *never fight always craft* I'm sure that most people would find it boring, but I regret to inform you that it's not impossible, not even hard if you are in a clan. And even if you are not in a clan you may hire mercenaries (probably not very cost effective) to assist you. The truth is that if you are determined to be the greatest crafter and trader on the land without ever wielding a sword then it's entirely possible. Several events may set you back but nothing can stop you. You want to slay monsters, fine Even the worst MMORPG will let you hit monster. Indeed. You want to own cities, fine One point! You want to be pirate Joe, fine Wtf? "Wtf" is not a rebuttal. Granted, pirating would be a lot more fun if the game had local banking but that's a different subject. Nevertheless you can still hijack ships in Darkfall. Well problem is i couldnt work out what exactly means beign pirate Joe but if you can hijack ships that Two points for me if it works. You want to explore, fine You can do that in WoW too. NO! Believe me, I've tried my best. The truth is that WoW is a land of boundaries with mountains heavily restricting travel and with seas of mobs that make it literally impossible for you to travel unless you've finished 763 quests first. And even if you do that my guess is that you will not be able to explore anything without dragging a train of agros behind you that can't actually hurt you. And on top of that the areas of the map are not actually where they are supposed to be. With my undead char I tried to swim next to the shores and reach Quel'Thalas to see with my own eyes and when I actually got there I discovered it was on a different zone and found nothing but rocks although I was at the correct location on the World Map. WoW is the worst RPG for exploring I have ever played. There is as much as exploring as the Half-Life and other FPS games (roller coaster exploration). There is as much as exploring as the Half life and other FPS games. Did you even played the game?There is plenty of locations and every zone is diffrent when i was playing for the first time i was completly smashed what loads of exploring and meeting new enemies and other lands is awaiting me every zone have unique enemies flora and even quests are around the lore ( Finding out what is wrong with water in Tanaris for example ) Can you explore without having to level first?Yeah you can but it is dangeroousI found it very close to impossible, or at least ridiculously time consuming, if you have any tips ..Can you enjoy the landcape without worrying about aggroing the sea of mobs around you? Sure cant see why you love water that much but whatever there are just few sea monsters beyond darkshore barrens and tirisfal gladesWhen I said sea of mobs I meant the rediculous amount of aggressive monsters filling nearly every region on the map. Can you pick a random direction and keep travelling straight until you reach the sea? Sorry This isnt sahara.I don't know where you live but I'm under the impression that in the real world you can travel towards any direction, if you avoid buildings, trees and other small obstructions and sidetrack at the occasional hill or mountain. On WoW on the other hand, every region is nearly completely surrounded by ridiculously steep mountains and seas that you cannot cross.90% of the time the answer is No, in darkfall it's 10% of the timeReally?Probably, if you avoid trees, rocks and some specific mountains(that you can climb, just not on a straight line). Can you climb any mountain you see?Lol climbing mountain? well if you call it that way in darkfall...Yes, exploring involves climbing mountains ... Can you build a boat (or even swim) and explore distant islands? Oh water again you love it dont you?Well i cant see what for boats would be good in WoW when most of things are happening on land People also tend to explore islands or coastlines using boats.If you see a spot on the map can you travel there on foot or swim, without having to use any means of fast travel and without crossing especially designated "zone gates"? Not everytime but there you can sometimes without crosing zone gates and cant see why is that bad with explorating..Is there a way to travel from and to the following places without the above restrictions?Easter Kingdoms, Kalimdor, Northrend, Quel'Thalas. I thought they were all on the same map, weren't they? There are even regions on the map that the Devs have not implemented yet, and there is a good chance they never will, talk about a feature complete game 5 years after launch Just few one and really there is just one place that i would like to see and that is Gilneas.That was the most obvious example, the one I had in mind. ... The answer to all these questions in Darkfall is yes, and that's what makes it a good exploration game.That makes it better exploration game? let me see... Is every Darkfall zone diffrent in flora?It is but I'm guessing you never bother checking. Although I would imagine it depends on your definition of zone .. Zones tend to be player defined concepts in DF. Can you in darkfall meet at least 45 percent of various monsters that are in WoW ?WoW has to cater to 80 levels of players from different factions that want 1000 mobs to themselves. God forbid you will have to contest with another player for a mob spawn. (I could be wrong about that at bigger levels). Also WoW has to fill every inch of nearly every region with mobs because that's the way to go. I would be very surprised and probably annoyed if DF had 10% of the total amount of mobs that WoW has. Also, DF has quite a few and diversified types of mobs, most of which cannot be soloed. Have every zone in Darkfall its lore? Actually it does, the difference is that it is player written. Every city has it's chronicles of the succession of rulers, every region is stained with the blood of historical battles fought by Players for the dominion of the land as clans and nations rise and fall in their perpetual fight for power. And the memories are engraved upon the minds of the people that witnessed and took part in the events that shaped the fate of the land. For your information the name of the Darkfall world "Agon" in Greek means "Struggle". Also many regions do have what you mean by lore (if you read the website), it's just that the devs have left this part of the game collecting dust in the closet. Most players don't miss it all that much.
Furthermore, I do not take the lore of a game seriously if the player has no impact on it. What's the point of fighting the Lich King if you know that you will not actually kill him. No boss for that matter actually ever dies. No player is known through the history of a server for killing X monster once and for all.(Before anyone jumping on this Darkfall is indeed supposed to have a few major bosses that die once and only once in the history of a server, not sure whether they're in yet though.) You do every quest knowing that Millions of people have done it before you and will do it after you and you have about 0 impact on the actual Lore of the game. Sandbox MMOs and PnP RPGs win on this subject hands down. Now I'm sure that WoW has small surprises like lore npcs, mobs and items, scripted cutscenes, a few beautiful landscapes and crap like that, but they do not make the game a good exploration rpg. I would suggest trying Elder Scrolls Morrowind or Oblivion as a frame of referance, for what most people consider an RPG good for exploration. But here you are wrong they make game good exploration RPG I seriously doubt everyone wants just run through stupid same place for 2 hours without getting stoped by mountain or even mob. For me and many other people it makes much more sense that the ocean of monsters completely surrounded by impassable mountains...
You want to be a scammer of thief, fine
You can do that in WoW too though you wont live long with it and beign on every ignore list isn't good idea.Not nearly as effective or fun, especially with the auction system in place. Very very wrong i see you are not skilled with scamming in WoW using Auction house but dont let get into this discussion. Granted. You want to be a retard, fine Included in Darkfall launch buttom! Being a retard in Darfkall provides a much funner gameplay experience compared to WoW. Well cant see anything funny about beign retard but if you found acting like someone with 70IQ funnier in Darkfall than in WoW you are welcome. You want to just do a bit of this and that, fine Yeah sure you can do that in WoW too. No, you can't. You can't have more than two professions at the same time, and you can't level professions without having to gain XP Levels parallely to unlock them. And more importantly, you can't be any combination of melee, tanker, archer, nuker, buffer, healer, aside from what your class provides. Yes we can!Oh well heard Obama too much and I'm living so far from USA well anyway about profession i told you and about these class combinations.... What combinations in Darkfall damn are everyone is two handed guy in heavy armor and that it is this makes it bad game not sandbox my friend The current balance issues between builts were obviously not intended. Aparently the devs are bad at balancing weapons and armor. Still, having the freedom to choose a particular built and have everyone look the same until the game is rebalanced is superior to having unbalanced classes and in case you picked the wrong one the answer is "Tough luck, reroll". Once (if) they rebalance and diversify builds we will see all the plausible combinations, but until then, touche. I doubt we will see it but lets hope. btw you CAN be tanker and nuker even tanker and buffer aswell it is all about build but after Wotlk every tanker is pretty much nuker. You can be nothing that your class is not intended to allow you to do. For example I would guess that you can't be a successful rogue and healer at the same time, or that you can't be a paladin that can travel around invisible. I could be mistaken but I do not claim to be a WoW guru and I'm sure that there is a very large amount of impossible combinations.
Yup but that would make it very pretty much stupid and break all the game balance you talked about. If you did it in WoW, sure, because it is balanced under a different ruleset. Other skill based games on the other hand seams to be balanced just fine, where everyone can skill up anything. I would use UO as an example but I've never played it.
So I must say, if you think this is not a sandbox, perhaps it is a matter of your own, unusual, definition of the word, because for all intents and purposes, the core of this game is nothing but one. From what i see WoW gives pretty much same options like this "sandbox" and WoW is called themepark. Try again. Now the another thing is that Darkfall is working like with levels because your skills improve only on 1-25 25-50 50-75 75-100 In level based games your level defines you. It designates what mobs you can kill and what mobs award xp for killing and it only increases by killing mobs/doing quests. Many game aspects are intertwined and dependent upon it (like WoW proffessions) and you can only enjoy a very small fraction of the game without having to increase it. There is no such concept in Darkfall and no amount of Tiers that each skill possesses will change that. Even if there were 2 skill levels for each skill (1-50 51-100) it would still be a skill based game for the above reason. About that skill system It seems you didnt understand It shouldnt meant that defines you I just said that game it is working SAME way like leveling up not that level make same diffrence notice the diffrence .
As you say i dont argue over that you can do as level 1 level 40 quest but now the catch is you say there is no such concept in Darkfall but that makes it dumb game because when you actually start game you are at it's top that means there is nothing to do expect fight.... So Counter-Strike with sandbox exploring it is!
There is no physical in-game barrier preventing you from experiencing a great fraction of what the game has to offer on day one. But probably if that's the case then you clan has worked it's ass off to actually achieve building the feature you are enjoying. The features of this game require team effort and/or the necessary circumstances to immerge, like the correct political conditions. I am of course referring to ships/warhulks mass battles in land or water, town management and everything associated with clan politics and warfare. Still you need to work hard for personal goals like being the greatest swordmanster/crafter/fire/merchant mage of the land (lots of macroing) and building your own reputation.
For me Darkfall is Very badly made Counter-Strike in Sandbox game. Good for you. Guess so.PS: getting out of colors dude!
There's always more colors.
Now granted, Darkfall is not nearly as sandboxy as it could be and my guess is that most players hope for more sand and posibilities enhancing solo expeirience to be added in the future, nevertheless comparing it with WoW is the definition of ignorance.
Furthermore, I would like to add that most of my WoW experience comes from my playing of the WoW Trial for a few days to see its elements for myself. I had an idea, but I couldn't believe how bad did Blizzard rape the Warcraft concept, at least what I though that a Warcraft MMO should be like. Of course I droped my trial account in a heartbeat once I figured I had been invited in Darkfall beta.
Originally posted by SignusM Originally posted by thark
Originally posted by SignusM
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by robertb
I suppose that in order for this thread to actually go anywhere of use, someone should actually define the word "Sandbox". Otherwise we are simply going to end up with an argument of semantics.
And that's the problem. None of these threads ever go anywhere because there is no "World Sandbox Game Standards Committee " that defines what such a game really involves, so we end up with everyone creating their own definitions. My preferred model goes like this: Fewer sandbox More sandbox features features <------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Games like WOW, AOC and WAR fall on the left side of the line, while games like Darkfall, EVE, UO fall on the right side to varying degrees. Of course, as we see from the debate in this thread, some folks think certain features are a "must have" in a sandbox game, say like player housing in the game world, and w/o it they'll toss out the entire game. I don't agree with defining games on one or two features, but prefer to look at the entire package, and based on these criteria, feel that DF clearly falls to the right side of the line, even if it doesn't reach the levels of UO/SWG (yet) Very fair post. I too am waiting for more of the fluff features to be fleshed out in Darkfall. That being said, there is no denying that the game is a sandbox.
Now let's see how long before trolls get you.
It's a sandbox core.. But with so many features missing you will end up with a world full of clones.. There needs to be a wide array of skills to choose from, and all of them needs to be as good as any other skill. For example : There is no pickpocketing skill And without a pickpocketing skill you cant be a thief !! Ohh well you can be a murderer and a thief ..But that is NOT the same.. When this game finally gets all of the intended skills of 500 or so(In 5 years or so)this game will be sandbox, until then it's just a retards haven !!! /junker
Didn't take long, though this one seems to be less trolling more just uneducated. Pickpocketing was never an intended skill, and thank God for that. Having a random chance of losing your items and having nothing you can do about it is foolish.
Sure you can be a thief, scavenge tombstones and run before the owner of the loot can get to you. No it's not totally the same, but it is a viable option, its how I got my initial wealth. The game IS a sandbox, just because it lacks the ability to collect rare plants and stick them in a house doesn't change that fact, the game is only a month old.
The pickpocketing was just one example, I mentioned the intended 500 skills as is visible in Aventurines FAQ.
Yes I actually knew this about pickpocketing.. Nothing you can do ??? Now that would demand a couple of more skills, woudnt it ? detection skills etc
And stop trying to fool yourself with the "Nothing players can do" bullshit..
This is the only thing that goes on in a world like Darkfall, because players are chickens and will ALWAYS try to get things the easy way.. Kill AFK players, kill newbs, trap players, lure players, steal the loot from players..
And they will also use exploits, use hacks, buy gold , buy leveled characthers, well these are the extreme cheaters ..but my guess Darkfall is full of these players aswell..
So if they introduced a skill that makes some players able to steal wihout beiing detected, what diffrence would it make ?? Sure it would get abused by many but it would also be a GREAT addiction to a sandbox game. And as I said ther always has to exist countermeasures, hightened sences etc, guards in citys.
Many of these things makes it closer to a sandbox game, because it gives the players choices, right now there isn't really that many choices in the game. My guess is that 80 % of the playerbase is playing around with melee/magic/archery characthers, and they also use the same weapons of choice. Aslong as there is a "best" template this is the template that the community will use, ALL skills has to be equaly great, othervise you will have a clone army.
It is a sanbox simply because you, as a player, can do pretty much whatever you want to do, with the tools provided by the devs.
You want to be PVP killer, fine You can do that in WoW too. Not until you've done enough quests to reach a big enough level for the game to set up pvp play-dates for you. Unlike Darkfall you can't just pick up a sword and level up by fighting players, without ever having the need to fight a single mob. You actually can get you newbie level 10 character and travel to an enemy starter town and find people of your level that will fight you. I've tried and achieved it with an undead travelling to Stormwind and fighting newbies. I strongly discourage anyone to even consider doing it ... Also pvp in WoW is much less fullfilling since you'll never fight for the honor of your clan, or to keep the precious city or ship you helped build and losing and winning doesn't actually matter much. You can play battlegrounds at low levels of course and if you actually get above 20 there is plenty of encouters with alliance that are doing same quest as you and saying PvP in WoW is less fullfulling and winning dont actually matters is pure ignorance you would be surprised how much fighting in arenas can be fullfilling if you get fight at high rating and aswell winning but my point is you can be PvP killer in WoW aswell not that you can be PvP killer since level 1 but beign able PvP since level 1 dont make it sandbox this makes it Counter-strike my friend. It appears that we have a very different definition of what pvp should be like and what it's purpose should be. For me Lineage 2 set the standard and DF improved upon it. Also, when there are different forms of pvp set by the developers of the game that have different rulesets, different negative and positive results for the contestants and can be "unlocked" by reaching a certain level, that my friend is screaming themepark a mile away. I didn't played Lineage 2 and now the funny part..... Think about what you said if you can unlock something by reaching a certain level that means it is screaming themepark miles away well that is wrong by your theory EVERY game where something is reached by certain level is themepark think about what you said. No, of course it makes perfect sense to unlock a superior item by skilling up crafting. I'm arguing against having X to Y level Raids, BGs, quests (and I'm sure there are more features) that also allow a certain number of players etc. In short, the whole instancing concept. Instancing is one of the defining features of themepark games. Instancing isnt defining feature of themepark that is just too simple say. You want to be master Crafter, fine You can do that in WoW too and there is better crafting than in this "sandbox" No, you can't be a master crafter without first leveling enough to unlock the last master crafter level. This dependency on level is what makes a wow a themepark and a level based game. Yeah right like I'm saying something like this all I'm saying you can be Master Crafter aswell in WoW but you are right but now comes the catch and that is the crafting in Darkfall is really not worth a year old sausage so as crafting is now it is sandbox but it is in terrible state so we can come to conclusion the game is Lame Sandbox game. The difference with WoW is that in WoW, you can't be a master crafter unless you are a master warrior. Opinions about whether the crafting system is a good implementation or not are irrelevant to the current subject. Personally I do think that DF system could be much better and a lot more options should be available. In Darkfall you cant just start crafting in peace to craft you must fight there are always players that are after your throat there is nothing like craft and never fight and crafting is anyway boring and no normal human existance can play style *never fight always craft* I'm sure that most people would find it boring, but I regret to inform you that it's not impossible, not even hard if you are in a clan. And even if you are not in a clan you may hire mercenaries (probably not very cost effective) to assist you. The truth is that if you are determined to be the greatest crafter and trader on the land without ever wielding a sword then it's entirely possible. Several events may set you back but nothing can stop you.
Of course it is possible never said it isn't just said that no normal human existance can play that style but anything is possible but really cant imagine someone who would run everytime from every ecounter and hire mercenaries because he dont want to draw sword because"He is just crafter" this is just pure madness. You want to slay monsters, fine Even the worst MMORPG will let you hit monster. Indeed. You want to own cities, fine One point! You want to be pirate Joe, fine Wtf? "Wtf" is not a rebuttal. Granted, pirating would be a lot more fun if the game had local banking but that's a different subject. Nevertheless you can still hijack ships in Darkfall. Well problem is i couldnt work out what exactly means beign pirate Joe but if you can hijack ships that Two points for me if it works. You want to explore, fine You can do that in WoW too. NO! Believe me, I've tried my best. The truth is that WoW is a land of boundaries with mountains heavily restricting travel and with seas of mobs that make it literally impossible for you to travel unless you've finished 763 quests first. And even if you do that my guess is that you will not be able to explore anything without dragging a train of agros behind you that can't actually hurt you. And on top of that the areas of the map are not actually where they are supposed to be. With my undead char I tried to swim next to the shores and reach Quel'Thalas to see with my own eyes and when I actually got there I discovered it was on a different zone and found nothing but rocks although I was at the correct location on the World Map. WoW is the worst RPG for exploring I have ever played. There is as much as exploring as the Half-Life and other FPS games (roller coaster exploration). There is as much as exploring as the Half life and other FPS games. Did you even played the game?There is plenty of locations and every zone is diffrent when i was playing for the first time i was completly smashed what loads of exploring and meeting new enemies and other lands is awaiting me every zone have unique enemies flora and even quests are around the lore ( Finding out what is wrong with water in Tanaris for example ) Can you explore without having to level first?Yeah you can but it is dangeroousI found it very close to impossible, or at least ridiculously time consuming, if you have any tipsEverything is possible if you want to friend! ..Can you enjoy the landcape without worrying about aggroing the sea of mobs around you? Sure cant see why you love water that much but whatever there are just few sea monsters beyond darkshore barrens and tirisfal gladesWhen I said sea of mobs I meant the rediculous amount of aggressive monsters filling nearly every region on the mapWell you know if you want to you can just die and ress always and that way explore everything!. Can you pick a random direction and keep travelling straight until you reach the sea? Sorry This isnt sahara.I don't know where you live but I'm under the impression that in the real world you can travel towards any direction, if you avoid buildings, trees and other small obstructions and sidetrack at the occasional hill or mountain. On WoW on the other hand, every region is nearly completely surrounded by ridiculously steep mountains and seas that you cannot crossWell you said you can just run straight until reach sea I live in main city of Czech Republic ( prague ) and if you gonna run straight for 30 seconds you gonna break your nose my friend no way reaching sea and it is really not ridiculously over mountained as you say maybe you didnt got to right zones..90% of the time the answer is No, in darkfall it's 10% of the timeReally?Probably, if you avoid trees, rocks and some specific mountains(that you can climb, just not on a straight line)Okay. Can you climb any mountain you see?Lol climbing mountain? well if you call it that way in darkfall...Yes, exploring involves climbing mountains ...That is not what i meant i meant you call climbing running straight up like rambo. Can you build a boat (or even swim) and explore distant islands? Oh water again you love it dont you?Well i cant see what for boats would be good in WoW when most of things are happening on land People also tend to explore islands or coastlines using boatsWoW isn' about islands and coastlines and there is minimum of such.If you see a spot on the map can you travel there on foot or swim, without having to use any means of fast travel and without crossing especially designated "zone gates"? Not everytime but there you can sometimes without crosing zone gates and cant see why is that bad with explorating..Is there a way to travel from and to the following places without the above restrictions?Easter Kingdoms, Kalimdor, Northrend, Quel'Thalas. I thought they were all on the same map, weren't they?Sorry read it wrong way when you said zone gates the entrace to a zone come in my mind and by fast travel i thought you meant wind riders. There are even regions on the map that the Devs have not implemented yet, and there is a good chance they never will, talk about a feature complete game 5 years after launch Just few one and really there is just one place that i would like to see and that is Gilneas.That was the most obvious example, the one I had in mindAnd maybe Grim'Batol but now since we know Deadwing is there I'm not really expecting anything else than big pew pew raid.. ... The answer to all these questions in Darkfall is yes, and that's what makes it a good exploration game.That makes it better exploration game? let me see... Is every Darkfall zone diffrent in flora?It is but I'm guessing you never bother checking. Although I would imagine it depends on your definition of zone .. Zones tend to be player defined concepts in DF.Dont get that Can you in darkfall meet at least 45 percent of various monsters that are in WoW ?WoW has to cater to 80 levels of players from different factions that want 1000 mobs to themselves. God forbid you will have to contest with another player for a mob spawn. (I could be wrong about that at bigger levels). Also WoW has to fill every inch of nearly every region with mobs because that's the way to go. I would be very surprised and probably annoyed if DF had 10% of the total amount of mobs that WoW has. Also, DF has quite a few and diversified types of mobs, most of which cannot be soloed.When WOTLK an TBC launched you waited for mobs but after few hours it was just fine. Have every zone in Darkfall its lore? Actually it does, the difference is that it is player written. Every city has it's chronicles of the succession of rulers, every region is stained with the blood of historical battles fought by Players for the dominion of the land as clans and nations rise and fall in their perpetual fight for power. And the memories are engraved upon the minds of the people that witnessed and took part in the events that shaped the fate of the land. For your information the name of the Darkfall world "Agon" in Greek means "Struggle". Also many regions do have what you mean by lore (if you read the website), it's just that the devs have left this part of the game collecting dust in the closet. Most players don't miss it all that much.
Furthermore, I do not take the lore of a game seriously if the player has no impact on it. What's the point of fighting the Lich King if you know that you will not actually kill him. No boss for that matter actually ever dies. No player is known through the history of a server for killing X monster once and for all.(Before anyone jumping on this Darkfall is indeed supposed to have a few major bosses that die once and only once in the history of a server, not sure whether they're in yet though.) You do every quest knowing that Millions of people have done it before you and will do it after you and you have about 0 impact on the actual Lore of the game. Sandbox MMOs and PnP RPGs win on this subject hands down.Well though it isn't that hot you actually in some quests you will change quite few things and IT matters who kills him!The one that kills as first some boss will get archivement for it and when that happens WHOLE server will see a message "Black Division Have First kill of Malygos!" so players will be famous like a true killers!Even archivements for First proffesion First Reputation everything is rewarded properly and who is on the server the best arena player or leader or tank of the best guild is even more known and even though i didnt logged in WoW for 4 months I will never forget some players that made it really far. Now I'm sure that WoW has small surprises like lore npcs, mobs and items, scripted cutscenes, a few beautiful landscapes and crap like that, but they do not make the game a good exploration rpg. I would suggest trying Elder Scrolls Morrowind or Oblivion as a frame of referance, for what most people consider an RPG good for exploration. But here you are wrong they make game good exploration RPG I seriously doubt everyone wants just run through stupid same place for 2 hours without getting stoped by mountain or even mob. For me and many other people it makes much more sense that the ocean of monsters completely surrounded by impassable mountains... Seriously tell me in what zones you was this is not funny.
You want to be a scammer of thief, fine
You can do that in WoW too though you wont live long with it and beign on every ignore list isn't good idea.Not nearly as effective or fun, especially with the auction system in place. Very very wrong i see you are not skilled with scamming in WoW using Auction house but dont let get into this discussion. Granted. You want to be a retard, fine Included in Darkfall launch buttom! Being a retard in Darfkall provides a much funner gameplay experience compared to WoW. Well cant see anything funny about beign retard but if you found acting like someone with 70IQ funnier in Darkfall than in WoW you are welcome. You want to just do a bit of this and that, fine Yeah sure you can do that in WoW too. No, you can't. You can't have more than two professions at the same time, and you can't level professions without having to gain XP Levels parallely to unlock them. And more importantly, you can't be any combination of melee, tanker, archer, nuker, buffer, healer, aside from what your class provides. Yes we can!Oh well heard Obama too much and I'm living so far from USA well anyway about profession i told you and about these class combinations.... What combinations in Darkfall damn are everyone is two handed guy in heavy armor and that it is this makes it bad game not sandbox my friend The current balance issues between builts were obviously not intended. Aparently the devs are bad at balancing weapons and armor. Still, having the freedom to choose a particular built and have everyone look the same until the game is rebalanced is superior to having unbalanced classes and in case you picked the wrong one the answer is "Tough luck, reroll". Once (if) they rebalance and diversify builds we will see all the plausible combinations, but until then, touche. I doubt we will see it but lets hope. btw you CAN be tanker and nuker even tanker and buffer aswell it is all about build but after Wotlk every tanker is pretty much nuker. You can be nothing that your class is not intended to allow you to do. For example I would guess that you can't be a successful rogue and healer at the same time, or that you can't be a paladin that can travel around invisible. I could be mistaken but I do not claim to be a WoW guru and I'm sure that there is a very large amount of impossible combinations.
Yup but that would make it very pretty much stupid and break all the game balance you talked about. If you did it in WoW, sure, because it is balanced under a different ruleset. Other skill based games on the other hand seams to be balanced just fine, where everyone can skill up anything. I would use UO as an example but I've never played it.
Didnt played that too. So I must say, if you think this is not a sandbox, perhaps it is a matter of your own, unusual, definition of the word, because for all intents and purposes, the core of this game is nothing but one. From what i see WoW gives pretty much same options like this "sandbox" and WoW is called themepark. Try again. Now the another thing is that Darkfall is working like with levels because your skills improve only on 1-25 25-50 50-75 75-100 In level based games your level defines you. It designates what mobs you can kill and what mobs award xp for killing and it only increases by killing mobs/doing quests. Many game aspects are intertwined and dependent upon it (like WoW proffessions) and you can only enjoy a very small fraction of the game without having to increase it. There is no such concept in Darkfall and no amount of Tiers that each skill possesses will change that. Even if there were 2 skill levels for each skill (1-50 51-100) it would still be a skill based game for the above reason. About that skill system It seems you didnt understand It shouldnt meant that defines you I just said that game it is working SAME way like leveling up not that level make same diffrence notice the diffrence .
As you say i dont argue over that you can do as level 1 level 40 quest but now the catch is you say there is no such concept in Darkfall but that makes it dumb game because when you actually start game you are at it's top that means there is nothing to do expect fight.... So Counter-Strike with sandbox exploring it is!
There is no physical in-game barrier preventing you from experiencing a great fraction of what the game has to offer on day one. But probably if that's the case then you clan has worked it's ass off to actually achieve building the feature you are enjoying. The features of this game require team effort and/or the necessary circumstances to immerge, like the correct political conditions. I am of course referring to ships/warhulks mass battles in land or water, town management and everything associated with clan politics and warfare. Still you need to work hard for personal goals like being the greatest swordmanster/crafter/fire/merchant mage of the land (lots of macroing) and building your own reputation.
Well yeah but in the end it is just fightning clan vs clan and that is all it have to offer when you finish your running through desert so i reccomend you Counter-Strike it can be fun with bunch of skilled guys on ventrilo. For me Darkfall is Very badly made Counter-Strike in Sandbox game. Good for you. Guess so.PS: getting out of colors dude!
There's always more colors. Not really.
Now granted, Darkfall is not nearly as sandboxy as it could be and my guess is that most players hope for more sand and posibilities enhancing solo expeirience to be added in the future, nevertheless comparing it with WoW is the definition of ignorance.
Furthermore, I would like to add that most of my WoW experience comes from my playing of the WoW Trial for a few days to see its elements for myself. I had an idea, but I couldn't believe how bad did Blizzard rape the Warcraft concept, at least what I though that a Warcraft MMO should be like. Of course I droped my trial account in a heartbeat once I figured I had been invited in Darkfall beta.
Originally posted by Naranar <Massive Wall of Text>
I don't have much to add other than respond to the counter-strike suggestion as well as answer the OPs question.
CS may have interesting, player skill and teamwork oriented battles but lacks on important element, which happens to be a sandbox MMO element, politics.
The result of putting thousands of players on a single rock with limited resources, a free combat system and arm them with ambition and vanity. At the beginning the land is engulfed mostly in chaos, until the first clans form, claim their territories and display their dominion. Soon conflict breaks out and alliances form as clans desire to ensure their survival or obtain more power. In this war every available weapon is used including diplomacy, spies and very often some nice zergy armies.
This leads to a perpetual conflict as kingdoms fall or rise to power while they merge or collide with each other, while only being comparable to the dance of colliding galaxies driven by gravity. Under this light, wars gain meaning since combat is largely driven by political reasons and every player's action has meaning since it plays a small role in deciding what is written on the history of the server.
So to the question, why do I consider the game a sandbox, for me it is mostly the element of politics, the making of history by united groups of people with common goals, while they fight others with conflicting interests, driven by the laws of human behaviour. It's one of the major elements that kept and keeps games like Shadowbane, Lineage 2 and Eve alive for years as many players are willing to disregard many game flaws to experience it.
If you want to read about the game's most important feature for probably most people playing it there is nowhere else to look than the Clan Discussion section of the Darkfall forums.
For a game to be called sandbox IMO is the freedom to do what you like with plenty of tools provided by the developers.
PVP,basic crafting,harvesting,full loot, no levels,seamless world, no instance, these are the core of any sandboxgame but only the core, it's still not a truly sandboxgame you are still restrictded. (semi sandbox)?
If there is more tools like, dancing professions,farmer,musican,explorer( being an explorer means somethings not just running around and look at pretty stuff), baker, housebuilder,law enforcer,thief,robber,merc, doing an impact on the world (look at EVE), politics,trade,merchant,economic,scammer,world events for an example people help to build a new npc village,player driven kingdoms/villagers, craft all items from a chair/rug to a mansion/castle, eat & drink no potion spamming.
The list can go on and on.
My point is for a game to be a true sandbox game the players must have multidude of choises what he/she whants to do not be forced into it by lack of tools.
Darkfall may very well be a sandbox game in the future but not as it looks now.
Comments
And that's the problem. None of these threads ever go anywhere because there is no "World Sandbox Game Standards Committee " that defines what such a game really involves, so we end up with everyone creating their own definitions.
My preferred model goes like this:
Fewer sandbox More sandbox
features features
<------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->
Games like WOW, AOC and WAR fall on the left side of the line, while games like Darkfall, EVE, UO fall on the right side to varying degrees.
Of course, as we see from the debate in this thread, some folks think certain features are a "must have" in a sandbox game, say like player housing in the game world, and w/o it they'll toss out the entire game.
I don't agree with defining games on one or two features, but prefer to look at the entire package, and based on these criteria, feel that DF clearly falls to the right side of the line, even if it doesn't reach the levels of UO/SWG (yet)
Very fair post. I too am waiting for more of the fluff features to be fleshed out in Darkfall. That being said, there is no denying that the game is a sandbox.
Now let's see how long before trolls get you.
Darkfall Travelogues!
The lack of game features does not make a game a sandbox. A sandbox game (eve, uo) gives you a ton of tools to do different things and play the game in different ways.
All of the 'things' that people list about darkfall (exploration, crafting etc) can be found in WOW. You cannot realistically be an explorer or crafter in DF without training your combat skills, just like you cannot be an explorer or crafter in WOW without training some combat skills. Yes, you could technically just run away from everything, but that is true as much in WOW as it is in DF.
UO and EVE obtained the title as sandbox by having a ton of tools that players could just goof around. I remember being absolutely addicted to the 'plant' system in UO, or running a shop with 20 vendors, or decorating my house etc. DF has nothing like that.
Darkfall is going for the 'sandbox' title by having NOTHING to do. You run around and mindlessly pvp, but that is it. There are no other tools to do anything else. The economy is absolutely terrible, nobody crafts or sells anything.
Wrong.
Darkfall lacks the maturity of games that have been out for close to a decade, but fluff will come in time, they have already begun patching some in.
If you think that Darkfall isn't a sandbox because you can't plant little flowers, you need to seek help. I guess Morrowind wasn't a sandbox game either.
The rulset of Darkfall puts no limit on the character, there is no linear progression, there are no zones, no instances, no classes, no levels, NOTHING stopping you from doing what you want to do. Pirate, explorer, crafter, PKer, anti-PKer, merc, general, scout, conqueror, or just someone who wants to roleplay a lunatic on an island in the middle of nowhere killing anyone who lands there.
It's a sandbox, and if you can't see it, then you're lost.
Darkfall Travelogues!
It's a sandbox core..
But with so many features missing you will end up with a world full of clones..
There needs to be a wide array of skills to choose from, and all of them needs to be as good as any other skill.
For example : There is no pickpocketing skill
And without a pickpocketing skill you cant be a thief !!
Ohh well you can be a murderer and a thief ..But that is NOT the same..
When this game finally gets all of the intended skills of 500 or so(In 5 years or so)this game will be sandbox, until then it's just a retards haven !!!
/junker
Its a shame that UO still holds the title as one the most freeform MMO out there - even through its extreme transformation post-Age of Shadows. The closest I have ever been to that old UO feeling was pre-NGE SWG.
I have high hopes for Darkfall. I really hope it shapes up. They've got the groundwork laid for a fantastic game here.
And that's the problem. None of these threads ever go anywhere because there is no "World Sandbox Game Standards Committee " that defines what such a game really involves, so we end up with everyone creating their own definitions.
My preferred model goes like this:
Fewer sandbox More sandbox
features features
<-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Games like WOW, AOC and WAR fall on the left side of the line, while games like Darkfall, EVE, UO fall on the right side to varying degrees.
Of course, as we see from the debate in this thread, some folks think certain features are a "must have" in a sandbox game, say like player housing in the game world, and w/o it they'll toss out the entire game.
I don't agree with defining games on one or two features, but prefer to look at the entire package, and based on these criteria, feel that DF clearly falls to the right side of the line, even if it doesn't reach the levels of UO/SWG (yet)
Very fair post. I too am waiting for more of the fluff features to be fleshed out in Darkfall. That being said, there is no denying that the game is a sandbox.
Now let's see how long before trolls get you.
It's a sandbox core..
But with so many features missing you will end up with a world full of clones..
There needs to be a wide array of skills to choose from, and all of them needs to be as good as any other skill.
For example : There is no pickpocketing skill
And without a pickpocketing skill you cant be a thief !!
Ohh well you can be a murderer and a thief ..But that is NOT the same..
When this game finally gets all of the intended skills of 500 or so(In 5 years or so)this game will be sandbox, until then it's just a retards haven !!!
/junker
Didn't take long, though this one seems to be less trolling more just uneducated.
Pickpocketing was never an intended skill, and thank God for that. Having a random chance of losing your items and having nothing you can do about it is foolish.
Sure you can be a thief, scavenge tombstones and run before the owner of the loot can get to you. No it's not totally the same, but it is a viable option, its how I got my initial wealth.
The game IS a sandbox, just because it lacks the ability to collect rare plants and stick them in a house doesn't change that fact, the game is only a month old.
Darkfall Travelogues!
Wrong.
Darkfall lacks the maturity of games that have been out for close to a decade, but fluff will come in time, they have already begun patching some in.
If you think that Darkfall isn't a sandbox because you can't plant little flowers, you need to seek help. I guess Morrowind wasn't a sandbox game either.
The rulset of Darkfall puts no limit on the character, there is no linear progression, there are no zones, no instances, no classes, no levels, NOTHING stopping you from doing what you want to do. Pirate, explorer, crafter, PKer, anti-PKer, merc, general, scout, conqueror, or just someone who wants to roleplay a lunatic on an island in the middle of nowhere killing anyone who lands there.
It's a sandbox, and if you can't see it, then you're lost.
And you can do that all in WOW. I can, at level 1, run my character from ogrimmar to Dun Murogh and try and PK the players there. I can, within 30 mins of creating a character, run around and mine/skin/craft. I can, at lvl 1, run all around the world and explore. WOW is probably the 'least' sandbox game there is, but everything you can do in DF, you can do in WOW. I have an achievement in WOW for killing 50 players who attacked my city. I got that achievement in a few weeks.
The reason I brought up flowers in UO, is because it is exactly the type of tool that sandbox games add. They add a ton of those little systems to occupy player's time..... like decorating your house, remodeling your house, setting up your vendors. They are tools that anyone can do.
Everything you listed about DF can be done in EVERY game..... which leads me to my original comment. The lack of features is NOT the defining feature of a sandbox. A sandbox game is one that has a lot of features and tools that players can use to have fun. Darkfall has nothing but an empty map and crappy combat.
Wrong.
Darkfall lacks the maturity of games that have been out for close to a decade, but fluff will come in time, they have already begun patching some in.
If you think that Darkfall isn't a sandbox because you can't plant little flowers, you need to seek help. I guess Morrowind wasn't a sandbox game either.
The rulset of Darkfall puts no limit on the character, there is no linear progression, there are no zones, no instances, no classes, no levels, NOTHING stopping you from doing what you want to do. Pirate, explorer, crafter, PKer, anti-PKer, merc, general, scout, conqueror, or just someone who wants to roleplay a lunatic on an island in the middle of nowhere killing anyone who lands there.
It's a sandbox, and if you can't see it, then you're lost.
And you can do that all in WOW. I can, at level 1, run my character from ogrimmar to Dun Murogh and try and PK the players there. I can, within 30 mins of creating a character, run around and mine/skin/craft. I can, at lvl 1, run all around the world and explore. WOW is probably the 'least' sandbox game there is, but everything you can do in DF, you can do in WOW. I have an achievement in WOW for killing 50 players who attacked my city. I got that achievement in a few weeks.
Wow, I almost threw up reading that. WoW is the game that invented the linear, single path dumbed down theme park genre. It got its roots from EverQuest but at least EverQuest gave you options.
None of the things you said were remotely true, and if you can't see the difference, I say again, you are lost.
Darkfall Travelogues!
Wrong.
Darkfall lacks the maturity of games that have been out for close to a decade, but fluff will come in time, they have already begun patching some in.
If you think that Darkfall isn't a sandbox because you can't plant little flowers, you need to seek help. I guess Morrowind wasn't a sandbox game either.
The rulset of Darkfall puts no limit on the character, there is no linear progression, there are no zones, no instances, no classes, no levels, NOTHING stopping you from doing what you want to do. Pirate, explorer, crafter, PKer, anti-PKer, merc, general, scout, conqueror, or just someone who wants to roleplay a lunatic on an island in the middle of nowhere killing anyone who lands there.
It's a sandbox, and if you can't see it, then you're lost.
And you can do that all in WOW. I can, at level 1, run my character from ogrimmar to Dun Murogh and try and PK the players there. I can, within 30 mins of creating a character, run around and mine/skin/craft. I can, at lvl 1, run all around the world and explore. WOW is probably the 'least' sandbox game there is, but everything you can do in DF, you can do in WOW. I have an achievement in WOW for killing 50 players who attacked my city. I got that achievement in a few weeks.
The reason I brought up flowers in UO, is because it is exactly the type of tool that sandbox games add. They add a ton of those little systems to occupy player's time..... like decorating your house, remodeling your house, setting up your vendors. They are tools that anyone can do.
Everything you listed about DF can be done in EVERY game..... which leads me to my original comment. The lack of features is NOT the defining feature of a sandbox. A sandbox game is one that has a lot of features and tools that players can use to have fun. Darkfall has nothing but an empty map and crappy combat.
I think i have to quote Anton Chigur from the movie "No Country For Old Men" : You have no idea what you talk about, do you?
Now granted, Darkfall is not nearly as sandboxy as it could be and my guess is that most players hope for more sand and posibilities enhancing solo expeirience to be added in the future, nevertheless comparing it with WoW is the definition of ignorance.
Furthermore, I would like to add that most of my WoW experience comes from my playing of the WoW Trial for a few days to see its elements for myself. I had an idea, but I couldn't believe how bad did Blizzard rape the Warcraft concept, at least what I though that a Warcraft MMO should be like. Of course I droped my trial account in a heartbeat once I figured I had been invited in Darkfall beta.
You can do everything you can do in Darkfall in every game with PvP I've ever played. With the exception of bulding cities you can do all those things in WoW. So are all those games sandboxes too? The answer is yes. A sandbox is a nonlinear game and all MMOs are. Mixing and matching features defines a particular game it does not define a genre.
Same ,you can do all of these things in Vanguard and do them in a bigger world.
Jah Rasta For I.
The Wicked Shall Fall..
http://www.ethnic2020.com/images/Ebay/black-jesus.jpg
Holy quote Batman! Can this thread sustain text walls of that magnitude?
Wrong.
Darkfall lacks the maturity of games that have been out for close to a decade, but fluff will come in time, they have already begun patching some in.
If you think that Darkfall isn't a sandbox because you can't plant little flowers, you need to seek help. I guess Morrowind wasn't a sandbox game either.
The rulset of Darkfall puts no limit on the character, there is no linear progression, there are no zones, no instances, no classes, no levels, NOTHING stopping you from doing what you want to do. Pirate, explorer, crafter, PKer, anti-PKer, merc, general, scout, conqueror, or just someone who wants to roleplay a lunatic on an island in the middle of nowhere killing anyone who lands there.
It's a sandbox, and if you can't see it, then you're lost.
And you can do that all in WOW. I can, at level 1, run my character from ogrimmar to Dun Murogh and try and PK the players there. I can, within 30 mins of creating a character, run around and mine/skin/craft. I can, at lvl 1, run all around the world and explore. WOW is probably the 'least' sandbox game there is, but everything you can do in DF, you can do in WOW. I have an achievement in WOW for killing 50 players who attacked my city. I got that achievement in a few weeks.
Wow, I almost threw up reading that. WoW is the game that invented the linear, single path dumbed down theme park genre. It got its roots from EverQuest but at least EverQuest gave you options.
None of the things you said were remotely true, and if you can't see the difference, I say again, you are lost.
read the red part again. I said WOW is NOT a sandbox game... yet it still has as many 'sandbox' features as DF.
What isn't true? You can't run to the enemy starting area at lvl 1 and pk against people there? You can't run around and explore the map at lvl 1? You can't defend your home city from enemy players who are attacking it? ( I have the acheivement to show you can).
So you are saying DF is a sandbox because you can go anywhere? Then why does it have starter areas? It's the same as WOW.. there are areas that are 'recommended' for certain levels, but you can go there any time you want. Can a new character in DF kill a dragon? No, same way a player in WOW can't kill a high level mob... but that doesn't mean you can't explore the map and run away from everything (same as df)
The definition of 'sandbox' is all about the tools. Does the game have a lot of tools that allow you to play? Darkfall has NOTHING.. NO TOOLS.. the lack of things to do is not a tool. Again, the least sandbox game, WOW, has a ton of sandbox features.. There are holidays ongoing almost all the time that have fun little side events that any player can do, there is a very active auction house/economy that any player can use, there are fishing, vanity pets, acheivements and a whole host of activities that ANYONE can do.
Darkfall has NO tools, just an empty map. In order for a sandbox to be fun, you need a shovel, a bucket and all the little toys that allow you to do things. In darkfall, you are just sitting on a pile of very boring sand with nothing to do. And with all the hacks, macros and exploits that are all over the place.. the sand you are sitting in smells a lot like a dog crapped in it.
And that's the problem. None of these threads ever go anywhere because there is no "World Sandbox Game Standards Committee " that defines what such a game really involves, so we end up with everyone creating their own definitions.
My preferred model goes like this:
Fewer sandbox More sandbox
features features
<------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->
Games like WOW, AOC and WAR fall on the left side of the line, while games like Darkfall, EVE, UO fall on the right side to varying degrees.
Of course, as we see from the debate in this thread, some folks think certain features are a "must have" in a sandbox game, say like player housing in the game world, and w/o it they'll toss out the entire game.
I don't agree with defining games on one or two features, but prefer to look at the entire package, and based on these criteria, feel that DF clearly falls to the right side of the line, even if it doesn't reach the levels of UO/SWG (yet)
Kyleran wins the thread. once with his first post, and again with this one. all MMOs are "sandboxes" to some extent.
{mod edit}
And that's the problem. None of these threads ever go anywhere because there is no "World Sandbox Game Standards Committee " that defines what such a game really involves, so we end up with everyone creating their own definitions.
My preferred model goes like this:
Fewer sandbox More sandbox
features features
<------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->
Games like WOW, AOC and WAR fall on the left side of the line, while games like Darkfall, EVE, UO fall on the right side to varying degrees.
Of course, as we see from the debate in this thread, some folks think certain features are a "must have" in a sandbox game, say like player housing in the game world, and w/o it they'll toss out the entire game.
I don't agree with defining games on one or two features, but prefer to look at the entire package, and based on these criteria, feel that DF clearly falls to the right side of the line, even if it doesn't reach the levels of UO/SWG (yet)
Kyleran wins the thread. once with his first post, and again with this one. all MMOs are "sandboxes" to some extent.
{mod edit}
All games are sandboxes
Darkfall is a game
Therefore, darkfall is a sandbox
That is basically your argument?
I agree with you in a way, but when we talk about comparing DF's sandbox to UO, SWG or EVE... it's not even close. Those games all have a ton of tools and features that support a sandbox game... DF does not. DF has NO tools or features to support sandbox gameplay.. it's only feature is a lack of features. It's not a sandbox full of toys that you manipulate to have fun, it is a pile of sand with nothing in it. UO, SWG and EVE give you a huge pile of sand, but at the same time they have all kind of neat toys all over the place for you to have fun with in that sand.
Now granted, Darkfall is not nearly as sandboxy as it could be and my guess is that most players hope for more sand and posibilities enhancing solo expeirience to be added in the future, nevertheless comparing it with WoW is the definition of ignorance.
Furthermore, I would like to add that most of my WoW experience comes from my playing of the WoW Trial for a few days to see its elements for myself. I had an idea, but I couldn't believe how bad did Blizzard rape the Warcraft concept, at least what I though that a Warcraft MMO should be like. Of course I droped my trial account in a heartbeat once I figured I had been invited in Darkfall beta.
Now granted, Darkfall is not nearly as sandboxy as it could be and my guess is that most players hope for more sand and posibilities enhancing solo expeirience to be added in the future, nevertheless comparing it with WoW is the definition of ignorance.
Furthermore, I would like to add that most of my WoW experience comes from my playing of the WoW Trial for a few days to see its elements for myself. I had an idea, but I couldn't believe how bad did Blizzard rape the Warcraft concept, at least what I though that a Warcraft MMO should be like. Of course I droped my trial account in a heartbeat once I figured I had been invited in Darkfall beta.
And that's the problem. None of these threads ever go anywhere because there is no "World Sandbox Game Standards Committee " that defines what such a game really involves, so we end up with everyone creating their own definitions.
My preferred model goes like this:
Fewer sandbox More sandbox
features features
<-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Games like WOW, AOC and WAR fall on the left side of the line, while games like Darkfall, EVE, UO fall on the right side to varying degrees.
Of course, as we see from the debate in this thread, some folks think certain features are a "must have" in a sandbox game, say like player housing in the game world, and w/o it they'll toss out the entire game.
I don't agree with defining games on one or two features, but prefer to look at the entire package, and based on these criteria, feel that DF clearly falls to the right side of the line, even if it doesn't reach the levels of UO/SWG (yet)
Very fair post. I too am waiting for more of the fluff features to be fleshed out in Darkfall. That being said, there is no denying that the game is a sandbox.
Now let's see how long before trolls get you.
It's a sandbox core..
But with so many features missing you will end up with a world full of clones..
There needs to be a wide array of skills to choose from, and all of them needs to be as good as any other skill.
For example : There is no pickpocketing skill
And without a pickpocketing skill you cant be a thief !!
Ohh well you can be a murderer and a thief ..But that is NOT the same..
When this game finally gets all of the intended skills of 500 or so(In 5 years or so)this game will be sandbox, until then it's just a retards haven !!!
/junker
Didn't take long, though this one seems to be less trolling more just uneducated.
Pickpocketing was never an intended skill, and thank God for that. Having a random chance of losing your items and having nothing you can do about it is foolish.
Sure you can be a thief, scavenge tombstones and run before the owner of the loot can get to you. No it's not totally the same, but it is a viable option, its how I got my initial wealth.
The game IS a sandbox, just because it lacks the ability to collect rare plants and stick them in a house doesn't change that fact, the game is only a month old.
The pickpocketing was just one example, I mentioned the intended 500 skills as is visible in Aventurines FAQ.
Yes I actually knew this about pickpocketing..
Nothing you can do ???
Now that would demand a couple of more skills, woudnt it ? detection skills etc
And stop trying to fool yourself with the "Nothing players can do" bullshit..
This is the only thing that goes on in a world like Darkfall, because players are chickens and will ALWAYS try to get things the easy way.. Kill AFK players, kill newbs, trap players, lure players, steal the loot from players..
And they will also use exploits, use hacks, buy gold , buy leveled characthers, well these are the extreme cheaters ..but my guess Darkfall is full of these players aswell..
So if they introduced a skill that makes some players able to steal wihout beiing detected, what diffrence would it make ??
Sure it would get abused by many but it would also be a GREAT addiction to a sandbox game.
And as I said ther always has to exist countermeasures, hightened sences etc, guards in citys.
Many of these things makes it closer to a sandbox game, because it gives the players choices, right now there isn't really that many choices in the game. My guess is that 80 % of the playerbase is playing around with melee/magic/archery characthers, and they also use the same weapons of choice. Aslong as there is a "best" template this is the template that the community will use, ALL skills has to be equaly great, othervise you will have a clone army.
And that is NOT a signum for a sandbox title.
Whats with all the colors and the multi-quoting?
How hard can it be to stick to the thread topic? *facepalm*
Now granted, Darkfall is not nearly as sandboxy as it could be and my guess is that most players hope for more sand and posibilities enhancing solo expeirience to be added in the future, nevertheless comparing it with WoW is the definition of ignorance.
Furthermore, I would like to add that most of my WoW experience comes from my playing of the WoW Trial for a few days to see its elements for myself. I had an idea, but I couldn't believe how bad did Blizzard rape the Warcraft concept, at least what I though that a Warcraft MMO should be like. Of course I droped my trial account in a heartbeat once I figured I had been invited in Darkfall beta.
Cats crap in boxes of sand.
Boxes of sand are called sandboxes.
Darkfall is full of cat crap.
Therefore, Darkfall is a sandbox.
I don't have much to add other than respond to the counter-strike suggestion as well as answer the OPs question.
CS may have interesting, player skill and teamwork oriented battles but lacks on important element, which happens to be a sandbox MMO element, politics.
The result of putting thousands of players on a single rock with limited resources, a free combat system and arm them with ambition and vanity. At the beginning the land is engulfed mostly in chaos, until the first clans form, claim their territories and display their dominion. Soon conflict breaks out and alliances form as clans desire to ensure their survival or obtain more power. In this war every available weapon is used including diplomacy, spies and very often some nice zergy armies.
This leads to a perpetual conflict as kingdoms fall or rise to power while they merge or collide with each other, while only being comparable to the dance of colliding galaxies driven by gravity. Under this light, wars gain meaning since combat is largely driven by political reasons and every player's action has meaning since it plays a small role in deciding what is written on the history of the server.
So to the question, why do I consider the game a sandbox, for me it is mostly the element of politics, the making of history by united groups of people with common goals, while they fight others with conflicting interests, driven by the laws of human behaviour. It's one of the major elements that kept and keeps games like Shadowbane, Lineage 2 and Eve alive for years as many players are willing to disregard many game flaws to experience it.
If you want to read about the game's most important feature for probably most people playing it there is nowhere else to look than the Clan Discussion section of the Darkfall forums.
For a game to be called sandbox IMO is the freedom to do what you like with plenty of tools provided by the developers.
PVP,basic crafting,harvesting,full loot, no levels,seamless world, no instance, these are the core of any sandboxgame but only the core, it's still not a truly sandboxgame you are still restrictded. (semi sandbox)?
If there is more tools like, dancing professions,farmer,musican,explorer( being an explorer means somethings not just running around and look at pretty stuff), baker, housebuilder,law enforcer,thief,robber,merc, doing an impact on the world (look at EVE), politics,trade,merchant,economic,scammer,world events for an example people help to build a new npc village,player driven kingdoms/villagers, craft all items from a chair/rug to a mansion/castle, eat & drink no potion spamming.
The list can go on and on.
My point is for a game to be a true sandbox game the players must have multidude of choises what he/she whants to do not be forced into it by lack of tools.
Darkfall may very well be a sandbox game in the future but not as it looks now.
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.