Tell me, who is the most good. A Sith who will kill you for your lunch money if they desire it. Or a Jedi who kills only to defend and if there are no other options?
what sith, in the history of all starwars klled someone for their lunch money? the sith we know the most about are the emperor and darth vader. the most random killings were when vader strangled his officers. the emperor never really had "random" killings, he was always calculated. and of course, killing off badguy officers who fail is pretty par for the course as far as supervillianing goes.
How many people have Jedi killed? the moment they made parts of the droid army somewhat cute (roger roger) those counted as kills. sure, it was easy to let it slide cause they are droids, but killing C3PO would be pretty mean and he is just a big shiny annoying droid.
the ideals the jedi put forth are far too absolute. be good, always be good, don't have feelings because feelings can make you be not good. is that evil? I'd say its about as evil as the empire was had there been no rebel alliance (and thus no destroying planets ect).
The empire was just that, an empire. had they not been at war with rebels, they really would have just been a facist goverment, not evil at all. but jedi killing countless stormtroopers isn't evil at all, because they are standing for (ooo this is rich) freedom. thats right, episodes 4 5 and 6 are all about freedom fighters, about taking down "the man" because he tells us how to think. so really, Luke is more sith than jedi. he has emotions, he acts on them (along with the rest of the rebel alliance) and we supported him in his mission to beat up his dad because he was more "human" than the empire.
So really, had the empire not been founded on well... a whole lot of really mean things the emperor did, what was so bad about it? what warrented a rebellion? now that I think about it, they never said too much about WHY the empire was so bad. maybe the empire was just spending all its money fighting the rebels instead of planting flowers on desert planets?
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the ideals the jedi put forth are far too absolute. be good, always be good, don't have feelings because feelings can make you be not good. is that evil? I'd say its about as evil as the empire was had there been no rebel alliance (and thus no destroying planets ect). The empire was just that, an empire. had they not been at war with rebels, they really would have just been a facist goverment, not evil at all. but jedi killing countless stormtroopers isn't evil at all, because they are standing for (ooo this is rich) freedom. thats right, episodes 4 5 and 6 are all about freedom fighters, about taking down "the man" because he tells us how to think. so really, Luke is more sith than jedi. he has emotions, he acts on them (along with the rest of the rebel alliance) and we supported him in his mission to beat up his dad because he was more "human" than the empire. So really, had the empire not been founded on well... a whole lot of really mean things the emperor did, what was so bad about it? what warrented a rebellion? now that I think about it, they never said too much about WHY the empire was so bad. maybe the empire was just spending all its money fighting the rebels instead of planting flowers on desert planets?
For the most part, all Palpatine ever did was manipulate people. They still made their own decisions, did he personally kill a single person? Ever? All he did was help people decide to do what they already wanted to do anyway, and just didn't have the guts for. As for what made the empire so "bad" that it had to be fought, I don't think there ever is a real reason in the story, just a fundamental assumption that Empires are bad, because they are, you know, Empires, and anything that isn't based on voting is Evil, right? Even the soldiers who fought in the wars that Palpatine engineered were pretty much all either droids or clones. "Real" people didn't start getting killed until the terroris.... ah, "Rebels" decided to fight against the lawful government.
Yes, I said lawful, Palpatine didn't do anything that wasn't within the emergency powers the Senate chose to give him. Technically, if Luke had followed the Jedi code, he likely would have encouraged the rebels to stop fighting, because that would have been the surest path to peace. He only fought because he hadn't been brainwashed. Yoda, the only true Jedi left, wanted Luke to let all of his friends be killed rather than attempt to save them, because like a typical fanatical Jedi, the only thing Yoda cared about other than "Peace" and the force was exterminating the Sith. Yoda couldn't have cared less about the conflict between the Rebels and the Empire, he just wanted Vader and the Emperor dead.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
Great post OP, although totally wasted by the shallowness of SW universe. Your reference of KOTOR is spot on, but lets remember that it was a first in the franchise that created a grey area in SW and not strict black and white kiddie world build with one dimensional good/evil characters.
Revan's and later in KOTOR2 (which flawed, pushed the envelope even further closer to what You posted) exile's choices have moral ambiguity to them. KOTOR went with SW where no one went before. Thats what makes this franchise so succesful. SW as a movie are cool, but looking for anything deeper there is a misunderstanding as people started making up stuff that Lucas never even dreamed of and aggrandized the whole thing to the level of ridicule.
The other thing is SW is something like a pure American fairy tale. From zero to hero, get the totalitarian commie/nazi bastard, find your true calling kinda tale. In USA where there's barely any history or tradition compared to Europe SW serves as filler for the need of having it's own mythology that united all the Americans of all colors and religions (alongside Star Trek, BSG, and others). And they're doing a damn good job with it...
Anyways, KOTOR Sith are evil bastards beacuse Lucasarts told Bioware to be so. In KOTOR 2 Kreia tries to teach the main char to use both sides of the Force without leaning to either Dark or Light side. Its what OP said, free will. But so much more. Not being bound by either Sith or Jedi codes and ethics, because why? Although a bit flawed KOTOR 2 is the closest thing to introducing any kind of integrity to this franchise.
Of course by using dark side (why would u call some energy bad or some good? is there bad electricity?) you become an evil disfigured idiot who skips most of the dialogue options with options like: Be silent. Or youre dead. or Listen to me. I have the power... Basically the fact that Sith survived for so long is a damn miracle. That's down to keeping with the canon idiocy that Lucasarts forces on all its products.
Looking for a deeper meaning in SW is like looking for a lake on Tatooine, and most of the brilliant ideas and philosophies are mostly watered down Oriental ideas mixed and mashed together, thrown in with lots of gadgets to make a profitable merchandise.
Speaking in terms of Sith vs. Jedi, not Empire vs. Republic. Just look at the different codes of the two orders. First, the Sith: Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me. Then look at the code of the Jedi: There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force. All that is required of the Sith is that they be themselves and make their own choices, acknowledging the truth that real peace does not exist and pursuing their goals with the fullness of their passion. This is not, in and of itself, evil. The good or evil of the Sith code lies solely in the goals of the individual Sith. It is, at it's core, a celebration of freedom and humanity. The ideal of the Jedi on the other hand is essentially to be soulless droids. A Jedi is not allowed to know love, the greatest motivator and purpose of life, the Jedi is not allowed anger, even when anger is called for, the Jedi is not allowed grief, no matter how great the loss, the Jedi is not allowed fear, even though fear leads to self-preservation. The Jedi is not allowed humanity, in the philosophical sense, though supposedly his goal is to preserve it. The Jedi code is inherently evil, because it asks of it's followers that they be less than human, that they sacrifice in their own lives all of the aspects that make those lives worth living, to the point that the last line of their code becomes sad prophecy. There truly is no death for a Jedi, because before something can die, it must first live, and for the Jedi there is no life, only the Force. An order dedicated to the eradication of the soul and opposed to the very idea of the individual cannot be considered good.
However, The Sith are followers of VALUES, while the Jedi are followers of MORALS. (if you don't know the difference between morals and values, don't bother replying, you'll just look dumb).
One is a self serving individual, the other a socialist whore.
I see BioWare's take on all this as not being black and white. If I remember correctly, they have always presented good/evil, Jedi/Sith in shades of gray. Your character was constantly presented with options, each of which could change your path along either the light or dark side of the Force. For me it was illustrated perfecty in a possible encounter on Nar Shadaa in KOTOR II. I don't remember the text exactly but the premise begins when you are approached by a begger. If you chose not to help him, his family starved and he dies (or some such thing). Kreia bertaes for using power for power's sake, implying that even inaction is a form of acting, that your display of superiority over the begger weakens your position. Just because you can do a thing doesnt mean you have to and picking on a lesser foe is not a sign of passion. I you assisted the begger, he was later mugged and killed for the money you gave him. Again Kreia berates you. She asserts your charity wekened the begger and didn't allow him to grow and learn from his mifortunes. It's a "damned if you do damned if you don't" situation. Or maybe it's all bullshit. The codes are what they are. Like anyother dogma or document they're open to interpretation, but we're all going to be limited by the the way BioWare introduces boundres surrounding the codes.
If your looking for moral objectivity in the SW Universe its an intresting one, but it does have a foundation of good vs evil.. Its scary to think that the OP is trying to say that bad guys are really the good guys is a scary concept in todays society.
1. The Sith have always attempted to obtain power. The Jedi do not. Look at examples of Darth Vader, Palatine, Jacen Solo, Revan etc.
2. The Sith murder ppl including murdering thier masters to further thier power. Palpatine is a great example.
3. The Jedi have defended one another and have sacrificed themselves for the greter good. Kor Skywalker (great grandson Luke skywalker), Obiwan Kenobi, Even Darth Vader upon seing his son being killed b4 his eyes.
4. The Sith subjujate ppl and races where the Jedi never have. Look at the bombing of Tarins int he 1st Kotor game as a great example.
OP I really beileve you have serious issues if you think that the Sith are actually the good guys. Would murder innocents? Bomb populations into oblivion? Kill your school teachers?The SW universe is about good and evil. All your trying to do is blur things.
Played : WOW, LOTRO, COH/COV, EQ2, SWG, and WAR. Playing EVE Online and AOC. Wtg for SW:TOR and WOD
I don't see it as Good vs. Evil.... It's one point of view vs. another.
Compare it to Democract vs. Republican: Both sides treat the other as if they were evil. They both want to control, only in different ways.
The Jedi want power just as much as the Sith. Some say the Jedi do it for the "Greater Good"... but do the Sith think the same thing? They disagree on what the greater good actually is. But both sides are willing to kill for it.
The above is the original Jedi Code. Any of you people who know the Jedi Code as recited by the Jedi of Luke's era will notice the difference. The path of absolutes was introduced, as far as I know, because too many Jedi "fucked up" as it were and went overboard.
That being said, the Sith, as an establishment, as a faction, are most likely evil. And not Lawful Evil either.
The problem with Sith is the Dark Side of the Force. I've always believed that the Dark Side was more than just a nice gadget and more than just a little bit of corruption. Personally, I like to think the Dark Side controls you as much as you control it and every time you use it, it gets easier for the Dark Side to control and twist you. hence why Dark Jedi, while their motives might be "lawful" in the beginning, will eventually twist into the "chaotic" realm of evil. (And please spare me with Potentium -.-. Potentium was conjured up by authors who realized they needed to write for kiddies who wanted the "cool" stuff (Lightning, choke etc) to be done by the "good" guys).
The Jedi themselves, as they were with Master Yoda and probably most of the time when they actually were powerful, are most likely not to be considered "Good". They had the greater scheme they considered and it is difficult to object with them when most of the time their predictions actually come through, though on the other hand you could argue that their lack of action only lead to these outcomes (see the Mandalorian War and the following Jedi Civil War as well as the Clone Wars).
Ultimately, good and evil are two rather absolutes in the Star Wars universe, defined by the Light Side and the Dark Side of the Force. I -HATE- that ghastly Gray Jedi stuff that's been invented by children who want to toss around Lightning without having to fear consequences.
So in the end, there's this to consider. The Dark Side will corrupt you and it will lead you to a path of "evil". There is no law in the Dark Side. You betray, you corrupt, you destroy whatever gets in the way of your personal ambitions. The Emperor, at the end, was so driven by wanting Skywalker that he was going to sacrifice his most loyal servant in the blink of an eye and didn't even realize what was happening around him, that his fleet of the "Lawful" Empire was being kicked around by a bunch of Left-Wing Anarchists. That's not "Lawful" anymore, that's Chaotic and thus the dark side of evil.
So, yeah, some parts of the Sith as an organization may not be evil, but the problem there is the powers with which they deal and which they expose themselves to, particularly as force sensitives. The jedi are not the "good" guys per se either, because they are, as was mentioned earlier, more concerned with the greater dealings of the galaxy, not people.
And the old Jedi, the ones whose Code I wrote at the beginning of the post....well they have been gone for a while.
But what of the "Balance" that the force has always been lacking, hence the prophecies and pretty much the entire storyline. Wouldn't that indicate that neither side is "Right"?
One who can use force powers designated as Light Side (left wing?) as well as force powers designated as Dark Side (Right wing?)
The Jedi fear emotions, and never learn to control them. They're the Vulcans of the SW universe. Learning to use your anger for example, and to control it without it controlling you, would be a key to gaining balance.
Jedi's are pretty much conservatives with lightsabers... They will do all they can to preserve a decaying, rotting, corrupted corpse that is the Old Republic. Sith and Mandalorians where like the viral infenctions that after a lots of pain and suffering at the end of the day made the infectee (Old Republic) stronger. I mean in SW universe there's a Jedi Civil War/Sith war every 1K years. So that gives like 1K years of relative peace, i think thats good. Wars, conflicts are needed to clean the air, cull the ever expanding populace, resolve issues. It's horrible, yes, but thats how the world works and that applies also to galaxy far away.
Then we have Jedi's who see the Republic's flaws and deciding to do something about it. All of the sudden they're Sith lords. Why? Cant we have a Jedi that says: wait a minute! This government sucks. Corruption is rife, no decisions are being made, bureaucracy is overblown to the point of stupidity... Hey wait another minute! We're the Jedi! We can make things right. We have Force and lightsabers, and are sworn to protect the Republic (even from itself). Nothing happens, silence ensues, the Jedi who said that is exiled...
Vader was supposed to bring balance to the force. And he did! He helped destroy an ineffective, weak construct that was the Republic. Laid waste to arrogant all knowing Jedi's who lost all contact with reality long time before, with senile lizard dwarf ruling them.
Yeah that makes sense, but I think it shows the Jedi don't practice what they preach. They say there is no emotion, when obviously there are plenty of emotions. What they mean is there is no emotion we have learned to control so we are just going to pretend they don't exist. Drugs are bad mmmmkay..Yoda went on that long and riduculous rant fear leads to this leads to that leads to whatever blah blah blah, which is technically true. Emotions really can get the best of someone, but you can't take emotion entirely out of the equation. The Jdi are afraid of emotion because it is potentially disruptive and problematic for the individual Jedi, but perhaps moreso for the Jedi Counci because the individual Jedi would question the Council more. The Jedi are full of fear and hypocrisy. Still though overall I don't see that as evil. Misguided, inept, bloateed, corrupt perhaps, but not evil. They are well-intentioned fools.
Jedi's are pretty much conservatives with lightsabers... They will do all they can to preserve a decaying, rotting, corrupted corpse that is the Old Republic. Sith and Mandalorians where like the viral infenctions that after a lots of pain and suffering at the end of the day made the infectee (Old Republic) stronger. I mean in SW universe there's a Jedi Civil War/Sith war every 1K years. So that gives like 1K years of relative peace, i think thats good. Wars, conflicts are needed to clean the air, cull the ever expanding populace, resolve issues. It's horrible, yes, but thats how the world works and that applies also to galaxy far away. Then we have Jedi's who see the Republic's flaws and deciding to do something about it. All of the sudden they're Sith lords. Why? Cant we have a Jedi that says: wait a minute! This government sucks. Corruption is rife, no decisions are being made, bureaucracy is overblown to the point of stupidity... Hey wait another minute! We're the Jedi! We can make things right. We have Force and lightsabers, and are sworn to protect the Republic (even from itself). Nothing happens, silence ensues, the Jedi who said that is exiled... Vader was supposed to bring balance to the force. And he did! He helped destroy an ineffective, weak construct that was the Republic. Laid waste to arrogant all knowing Jedi's who lost all contact with reality long time before, with senile lizard dwarf ruling them.
Yeah....balance?
Ahem, to freshen up your memory a little bit on what he brought. Slavery on countless worlds, subjugation of non-human species, destruction of planets, torture, poverty, despair.
See this is what I mean with Jedi seeing the bigger picture. Sure, everyone thought the senate was corrupt and probably it was, but what happened when the Sith took over? Seriously. You call the Empire a better place? Especially when the one in charge of it eventually succumbed to his own desires and led the fleet into a senseless defeat? See what I mean with the Dark Side twisting people?
Jedi's are pretty much conservatives with lightsabers... They will do all they can to preserve a decaying, rotting, corrupted corpse that is the Old Republic. Sith and Mandalorians where like the viral infenctions that after a lots of pain and suffering at the end of the day made the infectee (Old Republic) stronger. I mean in SW universe there's a Jedi Civil War/Sith war every 1K years. So that gives like 1K years of relative peace, i think thats good. Wars, conflicts are needed to clean the air, cull the ever expanding populace, resolve issues. It's horrible, yes, but thats how the world works and that applies also to galaxy far away. Then we have Jedi's who see the Republic's flaws and deciding to do something about it. All of the sudden they're Sith lords. Why? Cant we have a Jedi that says: wait a minute! This government sucks. Corruption is rife, no decisions are being made, bureaucracy is overblown to the point of stupidity... Hey wait another minute! We're the Jedi! We can make things right. We have Force and lightsabers, and are sworn to protect the Republic (even from itself). Nothing happens, silence ensues, the Jedi who said that is exiled... Vader was supposed to bring balance to the force. And he did! He helped destroy an ineffective, weak construct that was the Republic. Laid waste to arrogant all knowing Jedi's who lost all contact with reality long time before, with senile lizard dwarf ruling them.
Yeah....balance?
Ahem, to freshen up your memory a little bit on what he brought. Slavery on countless worlds, subjugation of non-human species, destruction of planets, torture, poverty, despair.
See this is what I mean with Jedi seeing the bigger picture. Sure, everyone thought the senate was corrupt and probably it was, but what happened when the Sith took over? Seriously. You call the Empire a better place? Especially when the one in charge of it eventually succumbed to his own desires and led the fleet into a senseless defeat? See what I mean with the Dark Side twisting people?
No that was the illness Galaxy had to went through to become stronger. And yes, it brought balance because only through strife, struggle, pain and despair can one shape to become a force to be reckonded with. Like Rebel Alliance.
And in time the New Republic will grow fat, arrogant, corrupt and Jedi's will be all knowing totalitarian thugs who preach peace and democracy although they're not ruled by any. And again, Sith will come to set things right.
Anyways, KOTOR Sith are evil bastards beacuse Lucasarts told Bioware to be so. In KOTOR 2 Kreia tries to teach the main char to use both sides of the Force without leaning to either Dark or Light side. Its what OP said, free will. But so much more. Not being bound by either Sith or Jedi codes and ethics, because why? Although a bit flawed KOTOR 2 is the closest thing to introducing any kind of integrity to this franchise. Of course by using dark side (why would u call some energy bad or some good? is there bad electricity?) you become an evil disfigured idiot who skips most of the dialogue options with options like: Be silent. Or youre dead. or Listen to me. I have the power... Basically the fact that Sith survived for so long is a damn miracle. That's down to keeping with the canon idiocy that Lucasarts forces on all its products.
Malak was ruthless, brutal, and didn't seem incredibly bright. But was he really evil? He had fought for a weak and degenerate Republic against the wishes of a weak and degenerate Jedi council, and the force he and Revan led managed to defeat the Mandalorians. In the process of doing so, they found that the Mandalorians were far more respectable than the Republic, and realized that the Republic was a pitiful entity that would always need others to do it's dirty work, taking aid when offered, then shunning those who gave it for their necessary use of violence. So Malak decided to eliminate the cancer that was the Republic's government, and replace it with something stronger that would not invite attack through it's weakness. Is this truly evil? Valuing ends more than means, certainly, but the goal itself can be considered a good one.
Don't really see enough of prior to game start Revan to make any educated statements on whether he was evil, and as for Revan during the game, too many possible incarnations for comment.
As for the disfiguring effects of the "dark side," power always carries a price. Some prices just leave harsher marks than others. It does not make those who were not previously stupid into idiots, there are many Sith who were not mindless, violent thugs.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
If your looking for moral objectivity in the SW Universe its an intresting one, but it does have a foundation of good vs evil.. Its scary to think that the OP is trying to say that bad guys are really the good guys is a scary concept in todays society. 1. The Sith have always attempted to obtain power. The Jedi do not. Look at examples of Darth Vader, Palatine, Jacen Solo, Revan etc. Of course the Sith seek power. In order to be relevant and accomplish one's goals, one must have power. And it is not accurate to say the Jedi do not seek power, only that the power they seek is not for their personal use, but used instead to promote the twisted ideals of their order. An order which is not interested in power does not build it's temple on the capital planet of a galactic government and then constantly provide "advice" to that government. 2. The Sith murder ppl including murdering thier masters to further thier power. Palpatine is a great example. Murder is when you kill someone yourself. Do we actually have evidence that Palpatine ever personally killed anyone? Also, there are Sith who murder, true, but that does not mean all Sith murder. 3. The Jedi have defended one another and have sacrificed themselves for the greter good. Kor Skywalker (great grandson Luke skywalker), Obiwan Kenobi, Even Darth Vader upon seing his son being killed b4 his eyes. Greater good is entirely a matter of perspective, and what right do the Jedi have to decide the One True Meaning of Good and then try to impose it on the galaxy? As for Vader, he did not save Luke because he suddenly devolved back into Jedi-hood, he saved Luke because he was true Sith. He saved Luke because Luke was *his* son, and he loved what was his, love, which the Jedi reject. He then destroyed the one trying to harm what he loved. Pure Sith. 4. The Sith subjujate ppl and races where the Jedi never have. Look at the bombing of Tarins int he 1st Kotor game as a great example. The Jedi never subjugate people and races? The entire Jedi Order is composed of indoctrinated slaves stolen from their parents (of many races) when barely more than infants. It is more that the Jedi are so focused on the force, that subjugating those without force sensitivity simply isn't worth their effort. They are arrogant elitists, not noble humanitarians. As for the Sith, in the Imperial sense which you are referring to them in in this point, they often try to bring stronger and more efficient government to power, and often humans advance more quickly in that government. But what race is it, exactly, that the Sith actually *enslaved* the way the Jedi enslave all their members? OP I really beileve you have serious issues if you think that the Sith are actually the good guys. Would murder innocents? Bomb populations into oblivion? Kill your school teachers?The SW universe is about good and evil. All your trying to do is blur things. Anyone who sees only the extremes of good and evil in any universe simply isn't paying close enough attention. As I said earlier, individuals are too complicated for such simple labels, but *ideas* can be good or evil, and service to an evil idea cannot be considered good, even if you refuse to label those who follow it evil. Innocence is a matter of perspective. Sometimes bombing is necessary in order to win a war without sacrificing your own troops. If my "school teachers" were trying to kill me for failing to follow the dogma they tried to shove down my throat, then yes, I would make sure they died instead. I am not trying to blur things. I am merely pointing out that many of them are already blurred, and others viewed.... incorrectly.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
I don't see it as Good vs. Evil.... It's one point of view vs. another. Compare it to Democract vs. Republican: Both sides treat the other as if they were evil. They both want to control, only in different ways. The Jedi want power just as much as the Sith. Some say the Jedi do it for the "Greater Good"... but do the Sith think the same thing? They disagree on what the greater good actually is. But both sides are willing to kill for it.
A very good description, but I would suggest one modification. The difference between the Sith philosophy and that of the Jedi is far greater than the (negligible) difference between Democrat and Republican. Sith vs. Jedi is more like Libertarian Anarchist vs. Totalitarian Communist. Of course, a given Sith could fall anywhere on the political spectrum, because the essence of a freedom based philosophy is personal choice, but loyal Jedi would fall uniformly into a very small and undesirable region.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
Vader was supposed to bring balance to the force. And he did! He helped destroy an ineffective, weak construct that was the Republic. Laid waste to arrogant all knowing Jedi's who lost all contact with reality long time before, with senile lizard dwarf ruling them.
Yeah....balance?
Ahem, to freshen up your memory a little bit on what he brought. Slavery on countless worlds, subjugation of non-human species, destruction of planets, torture, poverty, despair.
See this is what I mean with Jedi seeing the bigger picture. Sure, everyone thought the senate was corrupt and probably it was, but what happened when the Sith took over? Seriously. You call the Empire a better place? Especially when the one in charge of it eventually succumbed to his own desires and led the fleet into a senseless defeat? See what I mean with the Dark Side twisting people?
Could you provide sources for your claims of slavery and subjugation? Slow advancement through the imperial ranks isn't "subjugation." Keeping a heavy troop presence on violently rebellious worlds isn't "slavery." Could you provide sources on the poverty and despair as well, the few times we saw actual civilians they usually didn't seem like their lives were all that bad. As for torture, when did he torture anyone who wasn't a terrorist? And referring to Vader specifically, destruction of planet, not planets. He only took out one, and only because they were financiers and supporters of terrorism who refused to give up the location at which the violent extremists they were supporting were gathered.
Tatooine pre-Empire: rampant slavery. Do you remember any slaves in Episode IV? Also, Palpatine wasn't psychic, he had no way of knowing a bunch of furry little midgets would foil his trap. Given what he knew, it was entirely reasonable to assume his fleet was going to slaughter the rebels, not the other way around.
Edit: And Vader was never supposed to bring balance to the galaxy, he was supposed to bring balance to the Force. And he did, prior to Vader there were tons of Jedi and two Sith. By the time of Episode IV, there were two Jedi and two Sith, and by the end of Episode VI, there was one Force user who had never really followed the Jedi code, and wasn't a Sith either.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
I don't want to follow either code, i'd rather be in the grey doing what i felt like doing when i felt like doing it, i could do something viewed as good and then do something bad just as easily.
Apologies for the string of responses, but so much to respond to while I was away.
Ah, that is the beauty of the Sith code, as long as you do as you wish and refuse to ignore emotion, you *are* following it, whether your path be dark, light, or in between. It is only the Jedi code that seeks to eliminate personal choice and personal identity.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
Speaking in terms of Sith vs. Jedi, not Empire vs. Republic. Just look at the different codes of the two orders. First, the Sith: Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me. Then look at the code of the Jedi: There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force. All that is required of the Sith is that they be themselves and make their own choices, acknowledging the truth that real peace does not exist and pursuing their goals with the fullness of their passion. This is not, in and of itself, evil. The good or evil of the Sith code lies solely in the goals of the individual Sith. It is, at it's core, a celebration of freedom and humanity. The ideal of the Jedi on the other hand is essentially to be soulless droids. A Jedi is not allowed to know love, the greatest motivator and purpose of life, the Jedi is not allowed anger, even when anger is called for, the Jedi is not allowed grief, no matter how great the loss, the Jedi is not allowed fear, even though fear leads to self-preservation. The Jedi is not allowed humanity, in the philosophical sense, though supposedly his goal is to preserve it. The Jedi code is inherently evil, because it asks of it's followers that they be less than human, that they sacrifice in their own lives all of the aspects that make those lives worth living, to the point that the last line of their code becomes sad prophecy. There truly is no death for a Jedi, because before something can die, it must first live, and for the Jedi there is no life, only the Force. An order dedicated to the eradication of the soul and opposed to the very idea of the individual cannot be considered good.
In my opinion they are not good or bad. Talking about "lore desing", every hero needs an evil. Sith are evil because Jedis are good. In my opinion they are just opposite forces. Is just a matter of how you look at it. In the Sith point of view, Jedis are bad. In the Jedi's point of view, Sith are bad. You see the sith as good people because your point of view is probably similar to the sith s one. All is relative, even good or bad, stuff that is suposed as absolute are most of the time, relative.
Vader did bring balance to the force. pre-vader we had tons of jedi, and.... 2 sith? maybe 3. then he comes around, kills off all the jedi, brings sith to power, and then eventually destroys the sith as well. so after vader is dead we are left with luke, someone who can use the force, but hasn't been brainwashed by either jedi or sith.
yes, he did balance the force, we now have no sides, just a fresh start. the only problem was the jedi thought that balance meant "no more sith, only jedi" which is just silly.
And Caz is right about slavery. pre-empire we see plenty of slaves, vader himself was a slave. post-empire we don't see slaves. sure we see underground crime rings, terrorists, and some people who are very strict with their officers. but I don't remember any slavery from episodes 4 5 or 6.
Droids are people too, C3PO was made out to be very "human" and pretty much shows that in the SW universe, droids are sentient. this means the huge droid armies the jedi destroyed were in fact sentient, and the clone armies that the rebel alliance killed were very much people, even if they were clones. massive amounts of killing going on there, both sith and jedi sides.
and really, jedi mind trick. that is pretty morally wrong to mess with someone's head, but it is considered a Light side power? sith seem pretty darn nice when you look at all the crazy stuff the jedi have done.
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Another point to consider, clone troopers and stormtroopers, same troopers, but the clone Troopers were "good" because the Jedi needed them to help fight the seperatists, and the stormtroopers are "evil" because they serve the Empire. How can the exact same group be good at one point and evil at another, when their nature is constant throughout? The Jedi have never considered the good of anyone but the Jedi in determining their definition of "good" and "evil." Even Order 66 wasn't evil, because Palpatine was completely correct, when the Jedi found out he was a Sith, they would stop at nothing to kill him, regardless of the damage it did to an already war-torn galaxy. For all the preaching Jedi do about peace, for all it's prominence in their code, they have always cared more about killing Sith, and would happily see millions die in war if that was what was necessary to terminate the Sith.
And on the issue of mental manipulation and how much the Jedi like to use it, an example from KotOR: the "good" Jedi Council completely wiped Revan's memory in an attempt to control him. Essentially, they murdered who he was in cold blood so that they could use him as a tool. A war hero who fought while they did nothing, who discovered signs of a great threat beyond known space, and returned to strengthen the Republic so it would be prepared to face that threat, and the Jedi destroyed all that made him who he was, for the crime of failing to embrace the Jedi Orthodoxy and do as he was told.
At least if a Sith wants to destroy you, he will just kill you. The Jedi have no qualms about destroying everything that makes you who you are and then using the vessel you leave behind as a tool for the advancement of their schemes. Makes sense, given that they essentially build Jedi by getting them when they are too young to have developed personalities of their own, and then doing their best to make sure they don't.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
So being constantly paranoid and vile and murdering everyone around you (including family and children) just for sport, that's what you consider good? I believe you are justifying their ways using liberal reasoning, "If it feels good, it's okay".
I think if you look at all of the Star Wars canon you will see that taking one side completely only advocates a form of destruction, wether it be physical or social.
If you choose the darkside, you choose to act on your emotions, this means, if you feel like killing that guy for cutting you off in traffic, you'll do it! Chaos is the way of the darkside, because they refuse to control their emotions. For ones who believe in absolute power and control it is a bit of irony because they lack one vital element, self control.
To choose the lightside one has to shut down their feelings, this in turn causes the light user to loose all touch with everything that makes life what it is. If you remember Dr. Manhattan from Watchman and the problems that were created from his lack of empathy. How can you really help people if you don't understand them? In that sense their weakness comes from apathy. If you remember during the Clone Wars how difficult it was for the jedi to settle diplomatic matters, because they didn't quite understand what the people around them were going through.
It wasn't until the Luke Skywalker that force users experimented in both aspects of the force without restraint; but, as you know some people fall prey to one side or the other because one side seems easier to them.
The only innocent ones in Star Wars are the ones who have no ties to the force. Being a force user is a terrible burden no matter what side you go with; however, people who choose the dark path tend to live shorter lives, because the destructive nature of the darkside energy eats away at their physical body causing them to rapidly age and deforms their appearance like with Palpatine and the witches of Dathomir.
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
Could you provide sources for your claims of slavery and subjugation? Slow advancement through the imperial ranks isn't "subjugation." Keeping a heavy troop presence on violently rebellious worlds isn't "slavery." Could you provide sources on the poverty and despair as well, the few times we saw actual civilians they usually didn't seem like their lives were all that bad. As for torture, when did he torture anyone who wasn't a terrorist? And referring to Vader specifically, destruction of planet, not planets. He only took out one, and only because they were financiers and supporters of terrorism who refused to give up the location at which the violent extremists they were supporting were gathered. Tatooine pre-Empire: rampant slavery. Do you remember any slaves in Episode IV? Also, Palpatine wasn't psychic, he had no way of knowing a bunch of furry little midgets would foil his trap. Given what he knew, it was entirely reasonable to assume his fleet was going to slaughter the rebels, not the other way around. Edit: And Vader was never supposed to bring balance to the galaxy, he was supposed to bring balance to the Force. And he did, prior to Vader there were tons of Jedi and two Sith. By the time of Episode IV, there were two Jedi and two Sith, and by the end of Episode VI, there was one Force user who had never really followed the Jedi code, and wasn't a Sith either.
There were several examples of slavery in times of the empire and as such, subjugation. Chewbacca is a prominent one. The Omwati scientists being forced to create mass destruction devices were another.
And everyrthing can be twisted to be just a turn of fate, can't it? Towards the end, the Emperor was just a slave to the Dark Side and his ambitions. There was no -law- in him, or do you want to deny that? *shrug*
As for balance to the Force, that is an entirely different thing. And I suppose what i consider balance is a host of Force-Users who follow the old Jedi Code, not the strict, linear teachings of the "modern" Jedi which are born of fear and the will to control too much, but not the Sith side either, which is just willingly letting the Dark Side take a hold. So no, I do not consider wiping out all Jedi to be about balance, nor do i consider wiping out all Sith to be balance.
Balance would be if they realized what balance actually means and that is detailed in the code I wrote in my first post. *shrug*
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what sith, in the history of all starwars klled someone for their lunch money? the sith we know the most about are the emperor and darth vader. the most random killings were when vader strangled his officers. the emperor never really had "random" killings, he was always calculated. and of course, killing off badguy officers who fail is pretty par for the course as far as supervillianing goes.
How many people have Jedi killed? the moment they made parts of the droid army somewhat cute (roger roger) those counted as kills. sure, it was easy to let it slide cause they are droids, but killing C3PO would be pretty mean and he is just a big shiny annoying droid.
the ideals the jedi put forth are far too absolute. be good, always be good, don't have feelings because feelings can make you be not good. is that evil? I'd say its about as evil as the empire was had there been no rebel alliance (and thus no destroying planets ect).
The empire was just that, an empire. had they not been at war with rebels, they really would have just been a facist goverment, not evil at all. but jedi killing countless stormtroopers isn't evil at all, because they are standing for (ooo this is rich) freedom. thats right, episodes 4 5 and 6 are all about freedom fighters, about taking down "the man" because he tells us how to think. so really, Luke is more sith than jedi. he has emotions, he acts on them (along with the rest of the rebel alliance) and we supported him in his mission to beat up his dad because he was more "human" than the empire.
So really, had the empire not been founded on well... a whole lot of really mean things the emperor did, what was so bad about it? what warrented a rebellion? now that I think about it, they never said too much about WHY the empire was so bad. maybe the empire was just spending all its money fighting the rebels instead of planting flowers on desert planets?
Everything creates huge amounts of negativity on the internet, that's what the internet is for: Negativity, porn and lolcats.
For the most part, all Palpatine ever did was manipulate people. They still made their own decisions, did he personally kill a single person? Ever? All he did was help people decide to do what they already wanted to do anyway, and just didn't have the guts for. As for what made the empire so "bad" that it had to be fought, I don't think there ever is a real reason in the story, just a fundamental assumption that Empires are bad, because they are, you know, Empires, and anything that isn't based on voting is Evil, right? Even the soldiers who fought in the wars that Palpatine engineered were pretty much all either droids or clones. "Real" people didn't start getting killed until the terroris.... ah, "Rebels" decided to fight against the lawful government.
Yes, I said lawful, Palpatine didn't do anything that wasn't within the emergency powers the Senate chose to give him. Technically, if Luke had followed the Jedi code, he likely would have encouraged the rebels to stop fighting, because that would have been the surest path to peace. He only fought because he hadn't been brainwashed. Yoda, the only true Jedi left, wanted Luke to let all of his friends be killed rather than attempt to save them, because like a typical fanatical Jedi, the only thing Yoda cared about other than "Peace" and the force was exterminating the Sith. Yoda couldn't have cared less about the conflict between the Rebels and the Empire, he just wanted Vader and the Emperor dead.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
is it me or is the sith way sound like Judaism and the jedi way sound like Buddhism? where are teh smilies?
Great post OP, although totally wasted by the shallowness of SW universe. Your reference of KOTOR is spot on, but lets remember that it was a first in the franchise that created a grey area in SW and not strict black and white kiddie world build with one dimensional good/evil characters.
Revan's and later in KOTOR2 (which flawed, pushed the envelope even further closer to what You posted) exile's choices have moral ambiguity to them. KOTOR went with SW where no one went before. Thats what makes this franchise so succesful. SW as a movie are cool, but looking for anything deeper there is a misunderstanding as people started making up stuff that Lucas never even dreamed of and aggrandized the whole thing to the level of ridicule.
The other thing is SW is something like a pure American fairy tale. From zero to hero, get the totalitarian commie/nazi bastard, find your true calling kinda tale. In USA where there's barely any history or tradition compared to Europe SW serves as filler for the need of having it's own mythology that united all the Americans of all colors and religions (alongside Star Trek, BSG, and others). And they're doing a damn good job with it...
Anyways, KOTOR Sith are evil bastards beacuse Lucasarts told Bioware to be so. In KOTOR 2 Kreia tries to teach the main char to use both sides of the Force without leaning to either Dark or Light side. Its what OP said, free will. But so much more. Not being bound by either Sith or Jedi codes and ethics, because why? Although a bit flawed KOTOR 2 is the closest thing to introducing any kind of integrity to this franchise.
Of course by using dark side (why would u call some energy bad or some good? is there bad electricity?) you become an evil disfigured idiot who skips most of the dialogue options with options like: Be silent. Or youre dead. or Listen to me. I have the power... Basically the fact that Sith survived for so long is a damn miracle. That's down to keeping with the canon idiocy that Lucasarts forces on all its products.
Looking for a deeper meaning in SW is like looking for a lake on Tatooine, and most of the brilliant ideas and philosophies are mostly watered down Oriental ideas mixed and mashed together, thrown in with lots of gadgets to make a profitable merchandise.
Spoken like a true sith!!
Opening poster is correct.
However, The Sith are followers of VALUES, while the Jedi are followers of MORALS. (if you don't know the difference between morals and values, don't bother replying, you'll just look dumb).
One is a self serving individual, the other a socialist whore.
I see BioWare's take on all this as not being black and white. If I remember correctly, they have always presented good/evil, Jedi/Sith in shades of gray. Your character was constantly presented with options, each of which could change your path along either the light or dark side of the Force. For me it was illustrated perfecty in a possible encounter on Nar Shadaa in KOTOR II. I don't remember the text exactly but the premise begins when you are approached by a begger. If you chose not to help him, his family starved and he dies (or some such thing). Kreia bertaes for using power for power's sake, implying that even inaction is a form of acting, that your display of superiority over the begger weakens your position. Just because you can do a thing doesnt mean you have to and picking on a lesser foe is not a sign of passion. I you assisted the begger, he was later mugged and killed for the money you gave him. Again Kreia berates you. She asserts your charity wekened the begger and didn't allow him to grow and learn from his mifortunes. It's a "damned if you do damned if you don't" situation. Or maybe it's all bullshit. The codes are what they are. Like anyother dogma or document they're open to interpretation, but we're all going to be limited by the the way BioWare introduces boundres surrounding the codes.
If your looking for moral objectivity in the SW Universe its an intresting one, but it does have a foundation of good vs evil.. Its scary to think that the OP is trying to say that bad guys are really the good guys is a scary concept in todays society.
1. The Sith have always attempted to obtain power. The Jedi do not. Look at examples of Darth Vader, Palatine, Jacen Solo, Revan etc.
2. The Sith murder ppl including murdering thier masters to further thier power. Palpatine is a great example.
3. The Jedi have defended one another and have sacrificed themselves for the greter good. Kor Skywalker (great grandson Luke skywalker), Obiwan Kenobi, Even Darth Vader upon seing his son being killed b4 his eyes.
4. The Sith subjujate ppl and races where the Jedi never have. Look at the bombing of Tarins int he 1st Kotor game as a great example.
OP I really beileve you have serious issues if you think that the Sith are actually the good guys. Would murder innocents? Bomb populations into oblivion? Kill your school teachers?The SW universe is about good and evil. All your trying to do is blur things.
Played : WOW, LOTRO, COH/COV, EQ2, SWG, and WAR.
Playing EVE Online and AOC.
Wtg for SW:TOR and WOD
I don't see it as Good vs. Evil.... It's one point of view vs. another.
Compare it to Democract vs. Republican: Both sides treat the other as if they were evil. They both want to control, only in different ways.
The Jedi want power just as much as the Sith. Some say the Jedi do it for the "Greater Good"... but do the Sith think the same thing? They disagree on what the greater good actually is. But both sides are willing to kill for it.
Emotions, yet peace
Ignorance, yet knowledge
Passion, yet serenity
Chaos, yet Harmony
Death, yet the Force.
The above is the original Jedi Code. Any of you people who know the Jedi Code as recited by the Jedi of Luke's era will notice the difference. The path of absolutes was introduced, as far as I know, because too many Jedi "fucked up" as it were and went overboard.
That being said, the Sith, as an establishment, as a faction, are most likely evil. And not Lawful Evil either.
The problem with Sith is the Dark Side of the Force. I've always believed that the Dark Side was more than just a nice gadget and more than just a little bit of corruption. Personally, I like to think the Dark Side controls you as much as you control it and every time you use it, it gets easier for the Dark Side to control and twist you. hence why Dark Jedi, while their motives might be "lawful" in the beginning, will eventually twist into the "chaotic" realm of evil. (And please spare me with Potentium -.-. Potentium was conjured up by authors who realized they needed to write for kiddies who wanted the "cool" stuff (Lightning, choke etc) to be done by the "good" guys).
The Jedi themselves, as they were with Master Yoda and probably most of the time when they actually were powerful, are most likely not to be considered "Good". They had the greater scheme they considered and it is difficult to object with them when most of the time their predictions actually come through, though on the other hand you could argue that their lack of action only lead to these outcomes (see the Mandalorian War and the following Jedi Civil War as well as the Clone Wars).
Ultimately, good and evil are two rather absolutes in the Star Wars universe, defined by the Light Side and the Dark Side of the Force. I -HATE- that ghastly Gray Jedi stuff that's been invented by children who want to toss around Lightning without having to fear consequences.
So in the end, there's this to consider. The Dark Side will corrupt you and it will lead you to a path of "evil". There is no law in the Dark Side. You betray, you corrupt, you destroy whatever gets in the way of your personal ambitions. The Emperor, at the end, was so driven by wanting Skywalker that he was going to sacrifice his most loyal servant in the blink of an eye and didn't even realize what was happening around him, that his fleet of the "Lawful" Empire was being kicked around by a bunch of Left-Wing Anarchists. That's not "Lawful" anymore, that's Chaotic and thus the dark side of evil.
So, yeah, some parts of the Sith as an organization may not be evil, but the problem there is the powers with which they deal and which they expose themselves to, particularly as force sensitives. The jedi are not the "good" guys per se either, because they are, as was mentioned earlier, more concerned with the greater dealings of the galaxy, not people.
And the old Jedi, the ones whose Code I wrote at the beginning of the post....well they have been gone for a while.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
But what of the "Balance" that the force has always been lacking, hence the prophecies and pretty much the entire storyline. Wouldn't that indicate that neither side is "Right"?
One who can use force powers designated as Light Side (left wing?) as well as force powers designated as Dark Side (Right wing?)
The Jedi fear emotions, and never learn to control them. They're the Vulcans of the SW universe. Learning to use your anger for example, and to control it without it controlling you, would be a key to gaining balance.
Jedi's are pretty much conservatives with lightsabers... They will do all they can to preserve a decaying, rotting, corrupted corpse that is the Old Republic. Sith and Mandalorians where like the viral infenctions that after a lots of pain and suffering at the end of the day made the infectee (Old Republic) stronger. I mean in SW universe there's a Jedi Civil War/Sith war every 1K years. So that gives like 1K years of relative peace, i think thats good. Wars, conflicts are needed to clean the air, cull the ever expanding populace, resolve issues. It's horrible, yes, but thats how the world works and that applies also to galaxy far away.
Then we have Jedi's who see the Republic's flaws and deciding to do something about it. All of the sudden they're Sith lords. Why? Cant we have a Jedi that says: wait a minute! This government sucks. Corruption is rife, no decisions are being made, bureaucracy is overblown to the point of stupidity... Hey wait another minute! We're the Jedi! We can make things right. We have Force and lightsabers, and are sworn to protect the Republic (even from itself). Nothing happens, silence ensues, the Jedi who said that is exiled...
Vader was supposed to bring balance to the force. And he did! He helped destroy an ineffective, weak construct that was the Republic. Laid waste to arrogant all knowing Jedi's who lost all contact with reality long time before, with senile lizard dwarf ruling them.
Yeah that makes sense, but I think it shows the Jedi don't practice what they preach. They say there is no emotion, when obviously there are plenty of emotions. What they mean is there is no emotion we have learned to control so we are just going to pretend they don't exist. Drugs are bad mmmmkay..Yoda went on that long and riduculous rant fear leads to this leads to that leads to whatever blah blah blah, which is technically true. Emotions really can get the best of someone, but you can't take emotion entirely out of the equation. The Jdi are afraid of emotion because it is potentially disruptive and problematic for the individual Jedi, but perhaps moreso for the Jedi Counci because the individual Jedi would question the Council more. The Jedi are full of fear and hypocrisy. Still though overall I don't see that as evil. Misguided, inept, bloateed, corrupt perhaps, but not evil. They are well-intentioned fools.
Yeah....balance?
Ahem, to freshen up your memory a little bit on what he brought. Slavery on countless worlds, subjugation of non-human species, destruction of planets, torture, poverty, despair.
See this is what I mean with Jedi seeing the bigger picture. Sure, everyone thought the senate was corrupt and probably it was, but what happened when the Sith took over? Seriously. You call the Empire a better place? Especially when the one in charge of it eventually succumbed to his own desires and led the fleet into a senseless defeat? See what I mean with the Dark Side twisting people?
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
Yeah....balance?
Ahem, to freshen up your memory a little bit on what he brought. Slavery on countless worlds, subjugation of non-human species, destruction of planets, torture, poverty, despair.
See this is what I mean with Jedi seeing the bigger picture. Sure, everyone thought the senate was corrupt and probably it was, but what happened when the Sith took over? Seriously. You call the Empire a better place? Especially when the one in charge of it eventually succumbed to his own desires and led the fleet into a senseless defeat? See what I mean with the Dark Side twisting people?
No that was the illness Galaxy had to went through to become stronger. And yes, it brought balance because only through strife, struggle, pain and despair can one shape to become a force to be reckonded with. Like Rebel Alliance.
And in time the New Republic will grow fat, arrogant, corrupt and Jedi's will be all knowing totalitarian thugs who preach peace and democracy although they're not ruled by any. And again, Sith will come to set things right.
Malak was ruthless, brutal, and didn't seem incredibly bright. But was he really evil? He had fought for a weak and degenerate Republic against the wishes of a weak and degenerate Jedi council, and the force he and Revan led managed to defeat the Mandalorians. In the process of doing so, they found that the Mandalorians were far more respectable than the Republic, and realized that the Republic was a pitiful entity that would always need others to do it's dirty work, taking aid when offered, then shunning those who gave it for their necessary use of violence. So Malak decided to eliminate the cancer that was the Republic's government, and replace it with something stronger that would not invite attack through it's weakness. Is this truly evil? Valuing ends more than means, certainly, but the goal itself can be considered a good one.
Don't really see enough of prior to game start Revan to make any educated statements on whether he was evil, and as for Revan during the game, too many possible incarnations for comment.
As for the disfiguring effects of the "dark side," power always carries a price. Some prices just leave harsher marks than others. It does not make those who were not previously stupid into idiots, there are many Sith who were not mindless, violent thugs.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
A very good description, but I would suggest one modification. The difference between the Sith philosophy and that of the Jedi is far greater than the (negligible) difference between Democrat and Republican. Sith vs. Jedi is more like Libertarian Anarchist vs. Totalitarian Communist. Of course, a given Sith could fall anywhere on the political spectrum, because the essence of a freedom based philosophy is personal choice, but loyal Jedi would fall uniformly into a very small and undesirable region.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
Yeah....balance?
Ahem, to freshen up your memory a little bit on what he brought. Slavery on countless worlds, subjugation of non-human species, destruction of planets, torture, poverty, despair.
See this is what I mean with Jedi seeing the bigger picture. Sure, everyone thought the senate was corrupt and probably it was, but what happened when the Sith took over? Seriously. You call the Empire a better place? Especially when the one in charge of it eventually succumbed to his own desires and led the fleet into a senseless defeat? See what I mean with the Dark Side twisting people?
Could you provide sources for your claims of slavery and subjugation? Slow advancement through the imperial ranks isn't "subjugation." Keeping a heavy troop presence on violently rebellious worlds isn't "slavery." Could you provide sources on the poverty and despair as well, the few times we saw actual civilians they usually didn't seem like their lives were all that bad. As for torture, when did he torture anyone who wasn't a terrorist? And referring to Vader specifically, destruction of planet, not planets. He only took out one, and only because they were financiers and supporters of terrorism who refused to give up the location at which the violent extremists they were supporting were gathered.
Tatooine pre-Empire: rampant slavery. Do you remember any slaves in Episode IV? Also, Palpatine wasn't psychic, he had no way of knowing a bunch of furry little midgets would foil his trap. Given what he knew, it was entirely reasonable to assume his fleet was going to slaughter the rebels, not the other way around.
Edit: And Vader was never supposed to bring balance to the galaxy, he was supposed to bring balance to the Force. And he did, prior to Vader there were tons of Jedi and two Sith. By the time of Episode IV, there were two Jedi and two Sith, and by the end of Episode VI, there was one Force user who had never really followed the Jedi code, and wasn't a Sith either.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
Apologies for the string of responses, but so much to respond to while I was away.
Ah, that is the beauty of the Sith code, as long as you do as you wish and refuse to ignore emotion, you *are* following it, whether your path be dark, light, or in between. It is only the Jedi code that seeks to eliminate personal choice and personal identity.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
In my opinion they are not good or bad. Talking about "lore desing", every hero needs an evil. Sith are evil because Jedis are good. In my opinion they are just opposite forces. Is just a matter of how you look at it. In the Sith point of view, Jedis are bad. In the Jedi's point of view, Sith are bad. You see the sith as good people because your point of view is probably similar to the sith s one. All is relative, even good or bad, stuff that is suposed as absolute are most of the time, relative.
Vader did bring balance to the force. pre-vader we had tons of jedi, and.... 2 sith? maybe 3. then he comes around, kills off all the jedi, brings sith to power, and then eventually destroys the sith as well. so after vader is dead we are left with luke, someone who can use the force, but hasn't been brainwashed by either jedi or sith.
yes, he did balance the force, we now have no sides, just a fresh start. the only problem was the jedi thought that balance meant "no more sith, only jedi" which is just silly.
And Caz is right about slavery. pre-empire we see plenty of slaves, vader himself was a slave. post-empire we don't see slaves. sure we see underground crime rings, terrorists, and some people who are very strict with their officers. but I don't remember any slavery from episodes 4 5 or 6.
Droids are people too, C3PO was made out to be very "human" and pretty much shows that in the SW universe, droids are sentient. this means the huge droid armies the jedi destroyed were in fact sentient, and the clone armies that the rebel alliance killed were very much people, even if they were clones. massive amounts of killing going on there, both sith and jedi sides.
and really, jedi mind trick. that is pretty morally wrong to mess with someone's head, but it is considered a Light side power? sith seem pretty darn nice when you look at all the crazy stuff the jedi have done.
Everything creates huge amounts of negativity on the internet, that's what the internet is for: Negativity, porn and lolcats.
Another point to consider, clone troopers and stormtroopers, same troopers, but the clone Troopers were "good" because the Jedi needed them to help fight the seperatists, and the stormtroopers are "evil" because they serve the Empire. How can the exact same group be good at one point and evil at another, when their nature is constant throughout? The Jedi have never considered the good of anyone but the Jedi in determining their definition of "good" and "evil." Even Order 66 wasn't evil, because Palpatine was completely correct, when the Jedi found out he was a Sith, they would stop at nothing to kill him, regardless of the damage it did to an already war-torn galaxy. For all the preaching Jedi do about peace, for all it's prominence in their code, they have always cared more about killing Sith, and would happily see millions die in war if that was what was necessary to terminate the Sith.
And on the issue of mental manipulation and how much the Jedi like to use it, an example from KotOR: the "good" Jedi Council completely wiped Revan's memory in an attempt to control him. Essentially, they murdered who he was in cold blood so that they could use him as a tool. A war hero who fought while they did nothing, who discovered signs of a great threat beyond known space, and returned to strengthen the Republic so it would be prepared to face that threat, and the Jedi destroyed all that made him who he was, for the crime of failing to embrace the Jedi Orthodoxy and do as he was told.
At least if a Sith wants to destroy you, he will just kill you. The Jedi have no qualms about destroying everything that makes you who you are and then using the vessel you leave behind as a tool for the advancement of their schemes. Makes sense, given that they essentially build Jedi by getting them when they are too young to have developed personalities of their own, and then doing their best to make sure they don't.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
So being constantly paranoid and vile and murdering everyone around you (including family and children) just for sport, that's what you consider good? I believe you are justifying their ways using liberal reasoning, "If it feels good, it's okay".
I think if you look at all of the Star Wars canon you will see that taking one side completely only advocates a form of destruction, wether it be physical or social.
If you choose the darkside, you choose to act on your emotions, this means, if you feel like killing that guy for cutting you off in traffic, you'll do it! Chaos is the way of the darkside, because they refuse to control their emotions. For ones who believe in absolute power and control it is a bit of irony because they lack one vital element, self control.
To choose the lightside one has to shut down their feelings, this in turn causes the light user to loose all touch with everything that makes life what it is. If you remember Dr. Manhattan from Watchman and the problems that were created from his lack of empathy. How can you really help people if you don't understand them? In that sense their weakness comes from apathy. If you remember during the Clone Wars how difficult it was for the jedi to settle diplomatic matters, because they didn't quite understand what the people around them were going through.
It wasn't until the Luke Skywalker that force users experimented in both aspects of the force without restraint; but, as you know some people fall prey to one side or the other because one side seems easier to them.
The only innocent ones in Star Wars are the ones who have no ties to the force. Being a force user is a terrible burden no matter what side you go with; however, people who choose the dark path tend to live shorter lives, because the destructive nature of the darkside energy eats away at their physical body causing them to rapidly age and deforms their appearance like with Palpatine and the witches of Dathomir.
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
There were several examples of slavery in times of the empire and as such, subjugation. Chewbacca is a prominent one. The Omwati scientists being forced to create mass destruction devices were another.
And everyrthing can be twisted to be just a turn of fate, can't it? Towards the end, the Emperor was just a slave to the Dark Side and his ambitions. There was no -law- in him, or do you want to deny that? *shrug*
As for balance to the Force, that is an entirely different thing. And I suppose what i consider balance is a host of Force-Users who follow the old Jedi Code, not the strict, linear teachings of the "modern" Jedi which are born of fear and the will to control too much, but not the Sith side either, which is just willingly letting the Dark Side take a hold. So no, I do not consider wiping out all Jedi to be about balance, nor do i consider wiping out all Sith to be balance.
Balance would be if they realized what balance actually means and that is detailed in the code I wrote in my first post. *shrug*
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
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