Poorly designed game or the person that bought the game is playing the wrong game for them. Move along to a game that is fun all the way through. I believe it does not make sense. Why pay a developer extra money because parts of their game is unfun? These are games that are meant to be played for fun. If something is so unfun that you feel the need to swipe a credit card to bypass it, it's time to move along.
Wait... if the game is designed around buying items to enhance the fun and the player finds it fun to buy the items....
...then how is that the wrong game for that person?
I am speaking of P2P games trying to force item shops on people. I wasn't speaking of the casino games/ real life money games that F2P games are. I have always avoided them anyhow.
whatever game it is Lynx is right.
He who has the money and willing to spend it can do it so long as it is within the brackets of law. Jealousy from your QQs only shows "sour grape" tears. If you do not want to pay, go play something else.
Thousands of people pay money online to change the look of their icons in chatrooms. Thousands of people pay thousands of dollars to download odd sound waves and songs for their mobiles. Thousands ... . What do I mean to say?
NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS.
You are taking this too personal. I am not angry. If you think this is about jealousy then you I am afraid have missed the whole reason people play games. The fact is you are arguing for RMT Did I argue for RMT? Did you read or just assume anyone who does not agree with you is on the other side of the camp? All I am saying is, RMT is not the only factor relevant, quality of gameplay is all, and RMT is only one factor contributing to gameplay. because of jealousy of others. I myself find RMT a disgusting perversion on rpg gaming because it goes against what gaming is. Games are meant to be enjoyed by playing them. So play them the way you want BUT leave others to play the way they want to. Swiping a credit card for items isn't playing a game. You decide how they play their game? You decide how they swipe their card? Play your own game. Why do you bother how they play their game. I smell jealousy again. No way I can explain why you are more concerned with stopping people enjoying their game than playing your own game. If a game is good then you enjoy being in the world playing it. If a game is bad you do not. Buying items with a credit card can never says you, do you speak for everyone? buy you what others get from playing the game and that is the experience of playing the game. That is ultimately what you are paying for the experience of playing the game. Yeah, just as lynnx said, he enjoys paying for the items, that is he is paying for his own version of fun, NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS, unless you are jealous
If it was not then it wouldn't be called a game. Buying items online doesn't equal a game or game content. Says you, you decide for all of us what is game? That is a lazy way for a developer to make money. Stop making decisions for others, let the developer do it the way he wants, you are not obama, and even if you are obama, you have no say on how a game developer earns money. Making fun content to be played is what a game is. All the things you mention below are not classified as games. Says you again, stop making decisions for everyone else on what is game. Unlike you I do just that, if I find a game unfun I quit it. Then quit, but stop telling me that I must quit because you do. I no longer support them with my money. A game adds an item shop that I am playing, I quit. I no longer want the product. If you were smart you would see that if a game design isn't for you then you move to one that is fun and for you. If I am smart I must follow you without my own view, if i have my own views I am not smart? WoW wonderful way of argument, either way I am stupid. OK let me try "If you are smart, you should give me all your money", right? Giving developers money for virtual pixels to bypass their game content isn't the answer. The answer would be to find that game that you find fun without having to bypass the content. Says you, you define what is fun for us all?
All you are doing is relentlessly pushing your own idea on what is fun, what is game content, what should be priced, all your personal views. Then you suddenly turn that personal view into a truth, an orthodox and call us un-smart if we do not follow you. Come on, MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS. I have my own brain, my own life, my own views. I can decide on what to do with my money, Lynnx already told you what he enjoys, accept the fact that your view stays with you, it has no binding effects on us, and that does not indicate you are smart or me/lynnx is not smart.
Stop preaching like a priest. Your idea is not the Bible. Not following you does not mean condemnation to hell. I do not see RMT as a single most important factor affecting gameplay, it all depends on how the game is designed, and if there is RMT, how RMT fits in. It also depends on the game community, and the way the developer controls the evolution of the game community. RMT is just one factor. Judging a game on just one factor is a very narrow way of thinking. Open you mind.
Last but most important of all, stop telling us your views as if it is the only possible way of looking at things. Enough people told you they do not see things your way. If you cannot accept the fact that each of us has a brain, and can judge on our own, discussions stops here.
AND do not put words into my mouth. I never said I support RMT for the sake of RMT. Not finding it a serious problem does not mean I support it without reservations. Things are not always black and white.
(1) IF a game with RMT is still fun for me, and worth the sub in my view, I sub and play.
(2) IF the game sux for me, I won't play it, RMT or not.
Originally posted by bstripp It makes it no more so than for anyone else to trivialize my experience with time. All because they have more time to play. Yes there are parts in games that I would have happily shortcut. There are missions, levels, and other tasks that are maddeningly boring. Even in games I have loved, when I alted there were times I really didn't want to grind through the same content for the tenth time. If I'm paying to shortcut something, I obviously want to play whatever is past what I am bypassing. Obviously I love the game enough to drop cash into it to play the parts I want. So going back to the point, if the arguement against RMT is a sense of fair play, then make sure that you realize that you are not making the game more fair, just choosing which bias you want to place. As for your example, no I would not expect to be paid the same as him. However, I do not pay my job to come work there. They pay me. I do pay to play games for entertainment. I expect them to be fun and if I need to pay a little more to make my experience more fun, I have to weigh that purchase like I do the $15 a month that I either already spend, or would spend. If it's a game I've played for a while, I might very well pay something to make my time there less to get to parts of the game I enjoy more. So yes, we should bend the rules. You get to spend all the time you want getting your goodies. In a good RMT I don't take away your loot. You earned it and should have the same satisfaction whether I buy my loot, earn my loot, or don't have it. You do what's fun with your entertainment and I do the same. When we meet in the game, you can tell me how you earned your loot and I'll probably congratulate you. However, I'll be able to play the same game as you and will probably be happier for it.
You are right, I am just as bias as everyone else. You feel your money is more important than my time, and I feel my time is more important than your money. There I said it! =P
Let me put the trivialization of time aside because it is bias and opinion.
I'm not on a mission to change your mind but to tell you my perspective. Like I said before though. I do not like those RMT heavy games but I think they should exist for people like you. I have problems when people try to pull that crap in games that it is not meant for. If the rules state that you cannot do something that means you cannot do that something. If you do you are a cheater. No if ands or buts, you are a cheater. There is no justification for it. So logically, if you break the rules, and become a cheater, did you play the game fair? I do not care for what ever reason. Did you play fair?
Do you honestly expect me to pretend the game is fair when you have broken the stated rules?
For the simple fact you have extra money you are willing to burn, the rules do not apply to you anymore?
If you truly feel this way then, fine.... we will just have to agree to disagree.
Two seperate issues,
(1) If the developer allows his own form of RMT, using it is within the rules of the game. Whether that makes a game enjoyable depends on the player.
(2) If the gamer forbids RMT, then hooking up the gold seller is 100% illegal. No exception. Gold seller for me is sin.
Are you referring to the micropayment model by any chance?
I'm not a big fan of those, but if its just for good character looks (like maplestory) its fine in my opinion.
However, I agree with blizzard entertainment that all RMT that gives players a significant edge over others should not be allowed. How significant? Being more powerful. If it slightly helps them to level up faster, sooner or later they reach endgame, so no worries about that. Their level 60 powerleveled mage would be just as powerful as your level 60 slowboated mage.
If you are talking about nice cool items that are different from that in game in terms of firepower are the same (just additional features, see Combat Arms for more details), then its allright, but if its a one hit kill machine gun that auto aims and head/nutshots everyone then its bad...
Originally posted by bstripp It makes it no more so than for anyone else to trivialize my experience with time. All because they have more time to play. Yes there are parts in games that I would have happily shortcut. There are missions, levels, and other tasks that are maddeningly boring. Even in games I have loved, when I alted there were times I really didn't want to grind through the same content for the tenth time. If I'm paying to shortcut something, I obviously want to play whatever is past what I am bypassing. Obviously I love the game enough to drop cash into it to play the parts I want. So going back to the point, if the arguement against RMT is a sense of fair play, then make sure that you realize that you are not making the game more fair, just choosing which bias you want to place. As for your example, no I would not expect to be paid the same as him. However, I do not pay my job to come work there. They pay me. I do pay to play games for entertainment. I expect them to be fun and if I need to pay a little more to make my experience more fun, I have to weigh that purchase like I do the $15 a month that I either already spend, or would spend. If it's a game I've played for a while, I might very well pay something to make my time there less to get to parts of the game I enjoy more. So yes, we should bend the rules. You get to spend all the time you want getting your goodies. In a good RMT I don't take away your loot. You earned it and should have the same satisfaction whether I buy my loot, earn my loot, or don't have it. You do what's fun with your entertainment and I do the same. When we meet in the game, you can tell me how you earned your loot and I'll probably congratulate you. However, I'll be able to play the same game as you and will probably be happier for it.
You are right, I am just as bias as everyone else. You feel your money is more important than my time, and I feel my time is more important than your money. There I said it! =P
Let me put the trivialization of time aside because it is bias and opinion.
I'm not on a mission to change your mind but to tell you my perspective. Like I said before though. I do not like those RMT heavy games but I think they should exist for people like you. I have problems when people try to pull that crap in games that it is not meant for. If the rules state that you cannot do something that means you cannot do that something. If you do you are a cheater. No if ands or buts, you are a cheater. There is no justification for it. So logically, if you break the rules, and become a cheater, did you play the game fair? I do not care for what ever reason. Did you play fair?
Do you honestly expect me to pretend the game is fair when you have broken the stated rules?
For the simple fact you have extra money you are willing to burn, the rules do not apply to you anymore?
If you truly feel this way then, fine.... we will just have to agree to disagree.
Two seperate issues,
(1) If the developer allows his own form of RMT, using it is within the rules of the game. Whether that makes a game enjoyable depends on the player.
(2) If the gamer forbids RMT, then hooking up the gold seller is 100% illegal. No exception. Gold seller for me is sin.
That's exactly what I have been saying from the beginning >.<
Now for me, I measure my progression in terms of what I can do in the game. There are things I do and don't like to do (like anyone). However, I honestly don't care that a character is better or worse than me unless it prevents me from doing the things I want. Ask yourself how you judge your progression in a single player game. You do so based on your ability to handle the content at a given time. I'd tell you that's how you should measure yourself in an entertainment medium. As long as you, and plenty of others if the poll is to be believed, see the game as a competition; then I have no arguement that will make any sense to you in the long run. However, if you are really going to go down the fair road, then we should probably limit the amount of time people can spend in a game as well. What kind of game, if balance and fairness is to be held to a high standard, allows you to play for 100 hours while I can only play for 10. Certainly they won't let one sports team play for an extra period while the other team has to sit on the sidelines. Why should that be in a MMO? Eve tried to address that with their skill system and while it redresses some issues it causes others.
Why? I think this argument only makes sense if there is no level cap.
Otherwise, you reach level 50 in a day, a week, a month, a year, what difference does it make?
All will reach level 50, all will do the same number of quests, kill the same number of mobs to reach level 50 more or less.
Why does it make any difference how fast you do it?
You will play for 100 hours too won't you? Just not in 5 days. So how is it so unfaiir, that one person plays the 100 hours in 5 days (20 hours a day) and you play the 100 hours in 3 months? Is it that you feel the person that plays 100 hours in 5 days is getting a cheaper subscription rate per hour than you?
Does that REALLY make so much difference at 14.95 per month?
Yes, we all have 24 hours in a day. However, the amount of disposable time that we recieve differs vastly. This is no different than each of us having differing amounts of cash to spend on our entertainment. I personally think it's unfair that you can play for 8 hours a day while I have other responsibilities that have to be met if my family is going to have a roof over their head and food on the table. I don't choose to work over play, I have to work over play. Frankly those people trivialize anything that I will ever do and their limitless time creates an unfair gulf that I can not catch up. Because for how ever many hours I put in, they will be putting in 4x those hours. You can argue that people have the same ability to earn money and choose to play games instead. Both time and money are limited comodoties for most people. True, there is less varriance in time and the caps are much harder, but in practice, both are completely limited, and both affect your game experience.
This is what I don't understand. Why? Why does it make any difference if you make level 5 in one day, or one week?
You will also play 8 hours. Just not in a day. You will do the SAME quests, and kill the SAME mobs, and play the SAME 8 hours as the other person, but you will do it in a week or a month, instead of a day.
Why does this feel unfair to you? Is it that you feel he got a better deal on his 14.95 per month? Or is it something else? If something else, what in the world can it be?
You're absolutely no different than him on the game. You play 8 hours, he plays 8 hours, you both do the same content. Why would you want to play on his schedule instead of yours? Are you upset that he will get to the end game in a faster number of days? If you measure the game in content, you will do the EXACT same content as him to get to the end game. Why the rush?
In the above quote, you said you measure progress by what you can do in the game, now you're measuring it by levels per day?
To those supporting RMT, and saying it's "fair" I ask you to take a look at the poll.
Why in your opinion do over 3/4's of those that responded dislike RMT and think it's "unfair".
Are all those people ignorant of what it means to be "fair" in a game?
Is it your contention that all those people that voted are wrong, RMT is totally fair, and the only reason people say it's not fair is "jealously" because they can't buy the items?
I've been accused of this repeatedly in this thread, but I COULD buy all the items in an RMT game if I wanted to. Why would I be "jealous" if I could easily buy most of the itmes anyone else does? I'm not saying I could keep up with the most outrageous spender on an RMT game, but 100 bucks, 200 per month on items? Sure, I have hobbies that cost more than that.
So if I'm not jealous because I"m broke and can't afford the items anyone else buys, then why would I be so "jealous" in an RMT game?
Perhaps people do feel it's about "fairness" and it's not all just motivated by "jealously"?
To those supporting RMT, and saying it's "fair" I ask you to take a look at the poll. Why in your opinion do over 3/4's of those that responded dislike RMT and think it's "unfair". Are all those people ignorant of what it means to be "fair" in a game? Is it your contention that all those people that voted are wrong, RMT is totally fair, and the only reason people say it's not fair is "jealously" because they can't buy the items? I've been accused of this repeatedly in this thread, but I COULD buy all the items in an RMT game if I wanted to. Why would I be "jealous" if I could easily buy most of the itmes anyone else does? I'm not saying I could keep up with the most outrageous spender on an RMT game, but 100 bucks, 200 per month on items? Sure, I have hobbies that cost more than that. So if I'm not jealous because I"m broke and can't afford the items anyone else buys, then why would I be so "jealous" in an RMT game? Perhaps people do feel it's about "fairness" and it's not all just motivated by "jealously"?
Your poll is not scientific, it represents no known population, it is not scientifically modelled to provide distribution and disperse (standard deviation, biasness) measures. In simple terms its useless.
Just putting up a randomly carelessly worded poll here, with no control over population, sampling, voting, validation or QC will not get you any information reliable. Otherwise, everyone on a message board is a researcher or statistician.
Last but most important of all fairness is not a number, it is a view. There is no objective common measure, unlike age. Even if you construct a scale of 1 to 10, my 9/10 is not your 9/10. Doing a poll like that on a subjective measure is a big NO in statistical theory.
Originally posted by bustaj You are right, I am just as bias as everyone else. You feel your money is more important than my time, and I feel my time is more important than your money. There I said it! =P <snip> Do you honestly expect me to pretend the game is fair when you have broken the stated rules? For the simple fact you have extra money you are willing to burn, the rules do not apply to you anymore? If you truly feel this way then, fine.... we will just have to agree to disagree.
I know it may not seem that way, but I do respect your opinion. Honestly, I have never done any RMT in any game. I don't play them since for the most part I have yet to find one that's engaging enough to warrant paying to unlock things. If I did, well that would be fine.
The only real reason I'm debating in this thread is that I do see a very clear need for RMT in games. While I have yet to use them, I also don't see them as competition. Read this thread and there are tons of people who feel different. They want to play a fair game, yet are playing with a completely unfair set of rules. Adding RMT into the mix actually levels the playing field if it is done right. Granted, I have yet to see one that's done right and a lot of them are shameless money grabs. That doesn't mean that the model is bad, just that devs haven't really worked it out yet.
Now, I don't think that my money is more important than your time, but I do think that for people without time, there should be another avenue for them to achieve the same goals in the game.
If the goal of the game if PvP and I hate grinding, then being able to buy out of that portion of the game would be fine. Some people can't/don't/won't level a character due to repetitive inane content against bad AI. Since it's a game, the devs should happily take their money and let that person get to the PvP they want.
If I want to catch up to a friend who is playing and don't want to either bug someone for a PL, or go through the tedium of doing it, perhaps those XP potions or literally buying levels would work. I can catch my friends who started several months before me and play with them.
It really doesn't make a difference what the reason is. Some people don't have the time to put into the long grinds that are in most games. Should they not play them? Perhaps, but that's not for you and I to decide where they should spend their entertainment dollars.
As for gold selling, that's a whole nother ball of yarn. On one side, I agree that if it's not allowed it's cheating. On the other, devs are downright stupid for not selling their own gold or having a currency that's not tradeable. Goldselling is going to happen regardless of what legalities you place on them. They might as well get the cash which would help fund more resources into the game.
While goldselling is illegal in many games, most MMO players are happy to be twinked. Is there really all that much difference? So there's yet another hypocritical stance that most people have on RMT. They'll complain about how buying gold is cheating, but be more than happy to transfer gold from a higher level toon, or guildmate.
To those supporting RMT, and saying it's "fair" I ask you to take a look at the poll. Why in your opinion do over 3/4's of those that responded dislike RMT and think it's "unfair".
Because the audience here is skewed on that direction? Do you really believe that a poll of 200 people in a predominantly F2P-averse community carries more weight than a half a decade of reports and studies showing that item mall MMOs are vastly more popular than subscription based?
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
To those supporting RMT, and saying it's "fair" I ask you to take a look at the poll. Why in your opinion do over 3/4's of those that responded dislike RMT and think it's "unfair".
Because the audience here is skewed on that direction? Do you really believe that a poll of 200 people in a predominantly F2P-averse community carries more weight than a half a decade of reports and studies showing that item mall MMOs are vastly more popular than subscription based?
Considering the user base here, I'm surprised by the number of people who are ok with RMT. This forum hardly represents the mmo community as a whole. The majority of people here absolutely HATE the most popular P2P mmo on the planet... obviously the results of any poll from this forum is scewed and statistically worthless.
The fact is, more people play F2P games with RMT than P2P games.
Life itself isn't "fair". And it's not "Fair" that I have to go to work and raise a family and can't spend 10 hours a day on an MMO. I play games to have fun, and if paying a little money to skip a little grind and get down to the fun parts is the way I wanna play, then so be it. When I face you in PVP, you have no way to know if I bought the sword I'm beating you down with, or if I wasted 20 hours of my life farming for gold to buy it.
I still love my disneyland analogy the best. If we're all gonna meet at disneyland, does it matter how we get there? If I have money and can afford to fly, but you can't so you have to take days to get there by car, does that mean we have to stand in line at Space Mountain and argue about who got there the right way? About how unfair it was that I got to fly? About how I'm not allowed to enjoy the ride as much as you because you "earned" it and I didn't?
Why? I think this argument only makes sense if there is no level cap. Otherwise, you reach level 50 in a day, a week, a month, a year, what difference does it make? All will reach level 50, all will do the same number of quests, kill the same number of mobs to reach level 50 more or less. Why does it make any difference how fast you do it? You will play for 100 hours too won't you? Just not in 5 days. So how is it so unfaiir, that one person plays the 100 hours in 5 days (20 hours a day) and you play the 100 hours in 3 months? Is it that you feel the person that plays 100 hours in 5 days is getting a cheaper subscription rate per hour than you? Does that REALLY make so much difference at 14.95 per month?
Ihmotepp, not a bad point. However, I would say that in most games with a level cap, there is more than the level cap to "finish" your character. In fact, developers go to great pains so that you never quite finish your character. There's always something else out there that you want... or they feel that people will leave. So while there might be a level cap, in many games there is a near infinite progression.
However, I totally agree with you. It doesn't matter to me that it takes me a year to do what you might be able to do in a week. Why? Because it's not a competition and I don't compare myself to you when I am playing. It's not fair, but as long as it's an enjoyable experience that's ok.
Which is why you really shouldn't care if RMT is in a game. It doesn't matter if it's not fair as entertainment doesn't require an element of fairness. By their very nature MMOs are not fair, you have class balance, item balance, dev changes, time imbalance, and what not.
If you go back in the thread, I bring up the fact that time is unfair to point out that your requirement to compare characters across the game is just as biased by time constraints as it would be with money constraints. I'm arguing that you shouldn't compare characters and you shouldn't care that someone can leap ahead with their dollars. They are missing out on what you are doing, but so what?
Frankly I don't persoally care about time imbalances, other than to point out that arguing that money imbalances a game is fine, but admit that the game is already imbalanced and that it's a bit hypocritical to pick one bias over the other. Believe me, I and everyone, have opinions that don't make a whole lot of sense. If this is yours so be it, I have my own too.
To those supporting RMT, and saying it's "fair" I ask you to take a look at the poll. Why in your opinion do over 3/4's of those that responded dislike RMT and think it's "unfair". Are all those people ignorant of what it means to be "fair" in a game? Is it your contention that all those people that voted are wrong, RMT is totally fair, and the only reason people say it's not fair is "jealously" because they can't buy the items? I've been accused of this repeatedly in this thread, but I COULD buy all the items in an RMT game if I wanted to. Why would I be "jealous" if I could easily buy most of the itmes anyone else does? I'm not saying I could keep up with the most outrageous spender on an RMT game, but 100 bucks, 200 per month on items? Sure, I have hobbies that cost more than that. So if I'm not jealous because I"m broke and can't afford the items anyone else buys, then why would I be so "jealous" in an RMT game? Perhaps people do feel it's about "fairness" and it's not all just motivated by "jealously"?
Your poll is not scientific, it represents no known population, it is not scientifically modelled to provide distribution and disperse (standard deviation, biasness) measures. In simple terms its useless.
Just putting up a randomly carelessly worded poll here, with no control over population, sampling, voting, validation or QC will not get you any information reliable. Otherwise, everyone on a message board is a researcher or statistician.
Last but most important of all fairness is not a number, it is a view. There is no objective common measure, unlike age. Even if you construct a scale of 1 to 10, my 9/10 is not your 9/10. Doing a poll like that on a subjective measure is a big NO in statistical theory.
HAHA.. Orthedos the gallant Knight is on the defence of his RMT queen again! LOL mate how many threads are there now where you come to the defence of your precious RMT.
I think we need to crown you 1st Defender of the RMT
No mather what people say you spout your red lines all over thier post, disregarding logic and the fact that RMT is both bad from a social standpoint and an extra money grab for developers, take SOE games as an example. Both a monthly fee and a cash shop to milk the customer dry.
Now we get that:
You want your games to cost extra money (but most people dont want to spend more then they have to)
That you probably work for an RMT company ( because in all honesty I cant belive there are real costumors who argu for the RMT modual.
That you want us to fork up more chash to play games ( but we are not gona do that we are smarter then you think)
Now please stop this, we have seen thru you, Sorry you wont convince people that spending more money on a game is good for them. Just as you wont convince most Arabs to buy sand from you when they can get if for free.
Good way of discussion; starting by an insult. Where do I champion RMT? I just point out that the poll is useless for anything. Putting up a poorly designed poll is your idea of a good way of argument? If you know anything about market research or statistics, tell me how I am wrong. Smearing me with a bad name and then putting words into my mouth is not a way to gain you any credit. Point out where I said "RMT is good". PROVE IT.
RMT is bad, that is a view not a logic. You are totally nonsense. Something is wrong or bad is a view, and a view has nothing to do with logic. Unless you do not know what logic is.
Will RMT brings in more revenue to a developer? That remains to be seen. WoW has the biggest revenue among all games, RMT is illegal in WoW, apart from services charges to change server. Many RMT based games are struggling with unstable sub base, undisclosed income status, just look at the F2P games list. On the other hand some RMT based games are doing well, while some non RMT games are dying. There is no established pattern than RMT automatically means more revenue. Show us your business model. COME ON, BE A BIG MAN, COME UP WITH SOME SOLID MODELLING. Fancy words don't count as evidence.
(1) I want my game to cost more money, where did I said that. Majority does not want? Prove it, don't quote the silly poll.
(2) I work for an RMT company, prove it again. I honestly think you just escape from a zoo. Honestly, no one above the age of 3 will mix up logic with views and so ceaselessly put words into my mouth.
(3) I want to fork up more money for my games? Prove it.
Oh yeah you have no more ways of argument with me and beg me to stop breaking down your long phrases to empty repeating random noise?
Oh when did I suggest you to spend money. Go check my posting and show me where I said that? Put words into my mouth again?
Oh well, apart from mixing logic with views, championing a nonsense crusade and putting words into my mouth, what other tricks can you come up with.
Prove your claims. I bet you cannot.
Edit notes: Oh yeah I am paraphrasing him and trying to pick fun, I hope he can see how ridulous he has been. Oh well, I tried, I hope he can read thru the exaggerations.
To those supporting RMT, and saying it's "fair" I ask you to take a look at the poll. Why in your opinion do over 3/4's of those that responded dislike RMT and think it's "unfair". Are all those people ignorant of what it means to be "fair" in a game? Is it your contention that all those people that voted are wrong, RMT is totally fair, and the only reason people say it's not fair is "jealously" because they can't buy the items? I've been accused of this repeatedly in this thread, but I COULD buy all the items in an RMT game if I wanted to. Why would I be "jealous" if I could easily buy most of the itmes anyone else does? I'm not saying I could keep up with the most outrageous spender on an RMT game, but 100 bucks, 200 per month on items? Sure, I have hobbies that cost more than that. So if I'm not jealous because I"m broke and can't afford the items anyone else buys, then why would I be so "jealous" in an RMT game? Perhaps people do feel it's about "fairness" and it's not all just motivated by "jealously"?
Your poll is not scientific, it represents no known population, it is not scientifically modelled to provide distribution and disperse (standard deviation, biasness) measures. In simple terms its useless.
Just putting up a randomly carelessly worded poll here, with no control over population, sampling, voting, validation or QC will not get you any information reliable. Otherwise, everyone on a message board is a researcher or statistician.
Last but most important of all fairness is not a number, it is a view. There is no objective common measure, unlike age. Even if you construct a scale of 1 to 10, my 9/10 is not your 9/10. Doing a poll like that on a subjective measure is a big NO in statistical theory.
HAHA.. Orthedos the gallant Knight is on the defence of his RMT queen again! LOL mate how many threads are there now where you come to the defence of your precious RMT.
I think we need to crown you 1st Defender of the RMT
No mather what people say you spout your red lines all over thier post, disregarding logic and the fact that RMT is both bad from a social standpoint and an extra money grab for developers, take SOE games as an example. Both a monthly fee and a cash shop to milk the customer dry.
Now we get that:
You want your games to cost extra money (but most people dont want to spend more then they have to)
That you probably work for an RMT company ( because in all honesty I cant belive there are real costumors who argu for the RMT modual.
That you want us to fork up more chash to play games ( but we are not gona do that we are smarter then you think)
Now please stop this, we have seen thru you, Sorry you wont convince people that spending more money on a game is good for them. Just as you wont convince most Arabs to buy sand from you when they can get if for free.
LOLOLOL I was just about to say that where did you put your two squires Lynx and Madeux and in they swoop like the wind haha man you 3 are like the muskteers one for all and all for one haha
Posts like this are a waste of time for everyone involved, and point out that you really cannot put together a solid argument. Certainly you can at least put some effort into it?
He brings up all very valid points as far as polls are concerned, and when you cannot counter them in a legitimate manner, you decide to ridiculously attack his character. Which is rather comical, because in doing so you reveal your own true character.
Why? I think this argument only makes sense if there is no level cap. Otherwise, you reach level 50 in a day, a week, a month, a year, what difference does it make? All will reach level 50, all will do the same number of quests, kill the same number of mobs to reach level 50 more or less. Why does it make any difference how fast you do it? You will play for 100 hours too won't you? Just not in 5 days. So how is it so unfaiir, that one person plays the 100 hours in 5 days (20 hours a day) and you play the 100 hours in 3 months? Is it that you feel the person that plays 100 hours in 5 days is getting a cheaper subscription rate per hour than you? Does that REALLY make so much difference at 14.95 per month?
Ihmotepp, not a bad point. However, I would say that in most games with a level cap, there is more than the level cap to "finish" your character. In fact, developers go to great pains so that you never quite finish your character. There's always something else out there that you want... or they feel that people will leave. So while there might be a level cap, in many games there is a near infinite progression.
However, I totally agree with you. It doesn't matter to me that it takes me a year to do what you might be able to do in a week. Why? Because it's not a competition and I don't compare myself to you when I am playing. It's not fair, but as long as it's an enjoyable experience that's ok.
Which is why you really shouldn't care if RMT is in a game. It doesn't matter if it's not fair as entertainment doesn't require an element of fairness. By their very nature MMOs are not fair, you have class balance, item balance, dev changes, time imbalance, and what not.
If you go back in the thread, I bring up the fact that time is unfair to point out that your requirement to compare characters across the game is just as biased by time constraints as it would be with money constraints. I'm arguing that you shouldn't compare characters and you shouldn't care that someone can leap ahead with their dollars. They are missing out on what you are doing, but so what?
Frankly I don't persoally care about time imbalances, other than to point out that arguing that money imbalances a game is fine, but admit that the game is already imbalanced and that it's a bit hypocritical to pick one bias over the other. Believe me, I and everyone, have opinions that don't make a whole lot of sense. If this is yours so be it, I have my own too.
Another way to look at the problem of RMT Bstripp is that in games like Entropida universe PLED (thier ingame money) is worth Real money. So people spend 50-100 thousand dollars in that game. Now to me this is boarding on the Insane. And it lures in people that hope to make a big buck playing. Now a totaly new audiance will start playing MMOs. The same people who play Poker and aother casino games. RMT in mmos need to go before we are all sitting in a virtual MMORPG casino playing with our last dollar becuase we realy wanted to get that fancy cape for our Avatar. Many MMO players are also children and we need to take a moral stand against game distributor SOE who now both have monthly fees and cash shops to milk us dry.
RMT is not a good way to go... Time will always be free ( not healthy playing 24/7 and this also needs to stop, as people both have died and let other bad stuff happen while they just kept playing.
Addiction to video games wont become better if we indroduce more Cash in the equation. And the potential social problem of people becoming bankrupt for playing a video game is something that I dont want to see.
To those supporting RMT, and saying it's "fair" I ask you to take a look at the poll. Why in your opinion do over 3/4's of those that responded dislike RMT and think it's "unfair". Are all those people ignorant of what it means to be "fair" in a game? Is it your contention that all those people that voted are wrong, RMT is totally fair, and the only reason people say it's not fair is "jealously" because they can't buy the items? I've been accused of this repeatedly in this thread, but I COULD buy all the items in an RMT game if I wanted to. Why would I be "jealous" if I could easily buy most of the itmes anyone else does? I'm not saying I could keep up with the most outrageous spender on an RMT game, but 100 bucks, 200 per month on items? Sure, I have hobbies that cost more than that. So if I'm not jealous because I"m broke and can't afford the items anyone else buys, then why would I be so "jealous" in an RMT game? Perhaps people do feel it's about "fairness" and it's not all just motivated by "jealously"?
I spoke a bit about this earlier. The numbers don't surprise me at all.
Most of us are conditioned early on that rich people buying their way out of things is wrong... which on a social standpoint usually makes sense. Especially when it comes to competitions or achievements, you should earn your way and stand on your own two feet! It's a societal norm that resonates across many ethnicities and societies.
I think that most MMO players do compare themselves to other people's toons. I have seen enough threads about people who are concerned that someone else is getting their achievemets too easy. Look at any nerf thread for examples. Sadly too many people take these games, and the carrot numbers that are dangled in front of them serriously enough that it is a competition. You said it yourself, "MMOs are about character progression".
While that's totally valid, I don't want to tell you how you should enjoy a game. If making the numbers bigger than other people makes you happy so be it. However, if that's the case, you should at least acknowledge the inherent bias of the system. Time. Beyond a straight acumulation plenty of developers put in content that has to be copleted in sequential chunks of time.
So if it's about the fairness of the little numbers, then if you want to keep money out of the equation, you should really make sure that time is evened across the board as well. Perhaps you can only play a character for 10 hours and that's it. Once my character hits 10 hours we can compare them and see who's better! Now it might take me a couple of weeks to get there, but if it's about fairness, then make it about fairness.
MMOs are not fair. At all. Not even close. Chess is fair. Checkers is fair. Soccer is fair. Baseball is fair. MMOs, not close.
However, they don't need to be. Nor do other entertainment mediums: movies, plays, books. You do them for the experience and fun of doing them. In which case, RMT should never matter to you or your sense of fairness. If I skip to the end of the book and read the last page, it doesn't impact whether or not you liked the story.
Fairness and jealousy are two sides of the same word. If you are not jealous, then you don't care that it's not fair. Yes, I do think that people who do not like RMT are jealous. I do think they feel that it's unfair that people can buy their way out of things they could or do not. It's kind of how we are wired. I wish more people would look at MMOs as games and not competitions, there'd be a lot less virtriol in many of the forums...
Which brings us back to the number of people playing F2P vs the number playing P2P which, if I remember correctly, we were still waiting for you to get back to us with your numbers.
Who is "we"? As I recall, you are the only one who ever asked that strawman question.
Oh I get why people are upset. Like any argument on an MMO it's a case of the have's vs. the have nots. I just am waiting for people to realize that time is really just as unfair as RMT. Both time and money are commodities that most of us have in limited quantities.
Regardless of how unfair it is for some people to have more time, making the game MORE unfair via RMT is not the solution IMO. And apparently the opinion of most people here if this poll is any indication.
If we are competing and you have had 100 hours to play whack a mole and I have only had 10 hours to do so, which of us is going to be better?
So if you pay $5 and get to win automatically, that makes it more fair? Gimme a break.
Sure I can put another 90 hours in, but by that time you have put in 1000 hours. Is that fair?
Sure it is...you could put in the extra time if you really wanted to. Time is free for everyone. Money is not.
And it isnt like time=win in all MMOs anyway. I've been playing Eve for years, but there are people who have been playing 6 months who could kick my ass. Even in a battleship.
So while the time rich player uses more resources, demands more content, and is a worse value to the game, the RMT player is a benefit to the devs, uses less content and places additional funds into the coffer.
...which does them no good if it drives away a more lucrative income stream in the process...which was the point I was trying to make with this poll.
Orhedos and Madeux you both know what I think about RMT we been down this road to many times now. So I see no real point in putting in any more effort in trying to convince you Both that RMT is actually bad business.
But I can put the focus on that you argue for the RMT in as mush a fanatical manner as I argue against it. MY post was not directed at you but for readers of this thread. To look at your history and see OMG these two have made 10+ post now both where they do all they can to, discredit and crush any arguments that are negative towards RMT.
Iv tried realy hard to see your point but all I see in the future if you get yoru way, Is CASH shop going up all over the place and milking us dry.
All the Developers are angry about 3rd party sellers of thier virtual proparty. If we as consumers say hey we dont mind buying from you instead and we dont think of it as cheating. Then I will promise you Both! that in a mather of days every game that is p2p will start selling thier gold and items ingame.
What we are left with then is Entropida Universe, do you realy want all games to be like this in the Future??
Why? I think this argument only makes sense if there is no level cap. Otherwise, you reach level 50 in a day, a week, a month, a year, what difference does it make? All will reach level 50, all will do the same number of quests, kill the same number of mobs to reach level 50 more or less. Why does it make any difference how fast you do it? You will play for 100 hours too won't you? Just not in 5 days. So how is it so unfaiir, that one person plays the 100 hours in 5 days (20 hours a day) and you play the 100 hours in 3 months? Is it that you feel the person that plays 100 hours in 5 days is getting a cheaper subscription rate per hour than you? Does that REALLY make so much difference at 14.95 per month?
Ihmotepp, not a bad point. However, I would say that in most games with a level cap, there is more than the level cap to "finish" your character. In fact, developers go to great pains so that you never quite finish your character. There's always something else out there that you want... or they feel that people will leave. So while there might be a level cap, in many games there is a near infinite progression.
However, I totally agree with you. It doesn't matter to me that it takes me a year to do what you might be able to do in a week. Why? Because it's not a competition and I don't compare myself to you when I am playing. It's not fair, but as long as it's an enjoyable experience that's ok.
Which is why you really shouldn't care if RMT is in a game. It doesn't matter if it's not fair as entertainment doesn't require an element of fairness. By their very nature MMOs are not fair, you have class balance, item balance, dev changes, time imbalance, and what not.
If you go back in the thread, I bring up the fact that time is unfair to point out that your requirement to compare characters across the game is just as biased by time constraints as it would be with money constraints. I'm arguing that you shouldn't compare characters and you shouldn't care that someone can leap ahead with their dollars. They are missing out on what you are doing, but so what?
Frankly I don't persoally care about time imbalances, other than to point out that arguing that money imbalances a game is fine, but admit that the game is already imbalanced and that it's a bit hypocritical to pick one bias over the other. Believe me, I and everyone, have opinions that don't make a whole lot of sense. If this is yours so be it, I have my own too.
Another way to look at the problem of RMT Bstripp is that in games like Entropida universe PLED (thier ingame money) is worth Real money. So people spend 50-100 thousand dollars in that game. Now to me this is boarding on the Insane. And it lures in people that hope to make a big buck playing. Now a totaly new audiance will start playing MMOs. The same people who play Poker and aother casino games. RMT in mmos need to go before we are all sitting in a virtual MMORPG casino playing with our last dollar becuase we realy wanted to get that fancy cape for our Avatar. Many MMO players are also children and we need to take a moral stand against game distributor SOE who now both have monthly fees and cash shops to milk us dry.
RMT is not a good way to go... Time will always be free ( not healthy playing 24/7 and this also needs to stop, as people both have died and let other bad stuff happen while they just kept playing.
Addiction to video games wont become better if we indroduce more Cash in the equation. And the potential social problem of people becoming bankrupt for playing a video game is something that I dont want to see.
Now that is a semi valid concern.
But tell you what, the biggest casino will never be in games, It takes too long, and gamblers want instant win or loss. The biggest online casino is in sports. From NBA to soccer to every sports on earth. The worldwide gambling turnover in just 1 european games final can easily beat 10 years of blizzard income.
Just as a hint, despite the super billion annual salary, the biggest players has to cooperate with the semi illegal gambling bodies. You know why? The turnover (winning or losing one match) for one match >> his life time income. He makes more faking the game once than playing it trufully for a life time. On the other hand, if he does not cooperate, he will cost the gambling company so much money, that is it cheaper to replace him or even kill him than having him play and upset the bets.
Now that is big serious gambling money. WoW or whatever pathetic smaller games with what? 10/20 million bucks a year? Sport gambling is billions a day.
Another way to look at the problem of RMT Bstripp is that in games like Entropida universe PLED (thier ingame money) is worth Real money. So people spend 50-100 thousand dollars in that game. Now to me this is boarding on the Insane. And it lures in people that hope to make a big buck playing. Now a totaly new audiance will start playing MMOs. The same people who play Poker and aother casino games. RMT in mmos need to go before we are all sitting in a virtual MMORPG casino playing with our last dollar becuase we realy wanted to get that fancy cape for our Avatar. Many MMO players are also children and we need to take a moral stand against game distributor SOE who now both have monthly fees and cash shops to milk us dry. RMT is not a good way to go... Time will always be free ( not healthy playing 24/7 and this also needs to stop, as people both have died and let other bad stuff happen while they just kept playing. Addiction to video games wont become better if we indroduce more Cash in the equation. And the potential social problem of people becoming bankrupt for playing a video game is something that I dont want to see.
But you do see that you are talking about a bad implementation of RMT, which doesn't mean that RMT is all bad. Sure I think the sony pay for loot cards is a really stupid implemenation of it. You take the worst attributes of collectible card games and mix them with the additction of little numbers. I wouldn't use that method either.
However we aren't discussing any particular RMT, just whether it should be around or not... or as the thread title, how we feel about it.
I do think that if done right, meaning that the devs are sensitive to what people are doing in the game and give both the RMT and P2P crown equal and as balanced methods of achieving their goals, then everyone wins. If you use it spike revenues with unobtainable game items or random loot cards, well I won't be playing that. If you give me methods to bypass parts of the game that I don't like, then I'll probably stay.
* Guild Wars had PvP unlock packs, that's a good idea.
* XP potions: Good idea for the time challenged to keep pace with friends
* Item Shop: As long as the items aren't riddiculously hard to obtain in the game, good idea.
* Currency Purchasing: Good idea only in that you are going to have it in the game anyway and I'd rather see the devs get the cash than someone else.
* Costume packs: Good idea, directly justify animators and artisits on the dev staff
* Random loot cards with unobtainable in game items: Really bad idea
* Unobtainable or items required to continue the game: Bad idea unless it's a totally FTP game, then it's really cost dependand
* FTP game that requires a typical outlay of more than a PTP model just to play for a month: bad idea
The idea of RMT is fine, and you won't get rid of it even if the Devs stop using it. However, there are plenty of bad RMT examples on the market now. Sony perhaps being the most eggregious.
Orhedos and Madeux you both know what I think about RMT we been down this road to many times now. So I see no real point in putting in any more effort in trying to convince you Both that RMT is actually bad business. But I can put the focus on that you argue for the RMT Prove that I argue in favour of RMT, don't put words in my mouth, prove it find a quote to that effect, no you can't. in as mush a fanatical manner as I argue against it. MY post was not directed at you but for readers of this thread. To look at your history and see OMG these two have made 10+ post now both where they do all they can to, discredit and crush any arguments that are negative towards RMT. Iv tried realy hard to see your point but all I see in the future if you get yoru way, Is CASH shop going up all over the place and milking us dry. If you have read my points many times, show me where I argue in favour of RMT. Saying RMT is not the only issue of consideration, saying RMT alone is not the only faction determining gameplay quality =/= saying RMT is good. You have comprehension problems. I am not surprised, you cannot even tell the difference between logic and views. All the Developers are angry about 3rd party sellers of thier virtual proparty. If we as consumers say hey we dont mind buying from you instead and we dont think of it as cheating. Then I will promise you Both! that in a mather of days every game that is p2p will start selling thier gold and items ingame. Now you are royally wrong. Developers are angry if 3rd party sells their items, that is illegal. I have always maintained that RMT from illegal gold sellers is a big no in my books. Oh you said you read my arguments many times and you did not read that? What are you reading? Now, if you are buying directly from the developers, the developers will not be angry. Whether that spoils game play depends on how the game and RMT is implemented. Case by case, I do not believe in one simple mindless overgeneralised unsubstantiate groundless statement. I have been asking you many times, show us your business model. A fully developed model with defined terms. Sweeping statements like RMT is bad is a slogan, not a model. Hey, you know how to build a business model? What we are left with then is Entropida Universe, do you realy want all games to be like this in the Future?? Prove that scenario, how will we evolute to that point? How do you point? Based on a model or your dream?
Show me your business model. Do you have one? Yes or No?
Take your time to slowly build a model. We can wait.
For all those crusaders who keeps raising the banner of fairness, may I ask
(1) Whose standard of fairness is fair, yours or mine?
The standard of the majority of MMO players. I thought that was obvious.
(2) Why is fairness the standard for judging games
Because most people feel unfair games are not as fun.
(3) Why do you need me to play in your perceived standard of fairness
I dont. You can play all the unfair games you want. I just dont want to play with you. Thats all.
No one here has made the argument that RMT people should not be allowed to play RMT games. They are amke the argument that THEY dont want to play RMT games.
Simply put, your argument is not convincing.
If you really believe that, whya re you participating in this thread at all? Whats the point?
Your poll is not scientific, it represents no known population
If you have a poll you feel is less biased, feel free to link to it for us.
So far, I havnt seen any polls showing a demand for RMT...just a few columnists who seem to think it is the wave of the future, despite the fact that most people seem to hate it.
IMO, those columnists are simply out of touch.
Because the audience here is skewed on that direction?
Which direction? If anything, I would think the audience here is more RMT friendly than the general population.
Do you really believe that a poll of 200 people in a predominantly F2P-averse community carries more weight than a half a decade of reports and studies showing that item mall MMOs are vastly more popular than subscription based?
What "reports" are those? Why do you believe they are unbiased?
The fact is, more people play F2P games with RMT than P2P games.
What do you base that assumption on?
Life itself isn't "fair". And it's not "Fair" that I have to go to work and raise a family and can't spend 10 hours a day on an MMO.
Fine...is it then fair that you can spend 4 hours a week playing while I can only spend 1 hour? How far do you want to go?
Making the game less fair isnt the solution IMO.
I still love my disneyland analogy the best. If we're all gonna meet at disneyland, does it matter how we get there?
Disneyland isnt a competitive environment. Thats why that analogy fails.
Another way to look at the problem of RMT Bstripp is that in games like Entropida universe PLED (thier ingame money) is worth Real money. So people spend 50-100 thousand dollars in that game. Now to me this is boarding on the Insane. And it lures in people that hope to make a big buck playing. Now a totaly new audiance will start playing MMOs. The same people who play Poker and aother casino games. RMT in mmos need to go before we are all sitting in a virtual MMORPG casino playing with our last dollar becuase we realy wanted to get that fancy cape for our Avatar. Many MMO players are also children and we need to take a moral stand against game distributor SOE who now both have monthly fees and cash shops to milk us dry. RMT is not a good way to go... Time will always be free ( not healthy playing 24/7 and this also needs to stop, as people both have died and let other bad stuff happen while they just kept playing. Addiction to video games wont become better if we indroduce more Cash in the equation. And the potential social problem of people becoming bankrupt for playing a video game is something that I dont want to see.
But you do see that you are talking about a bad implementation of RMT, which doesn't mean that RMT is all bad. Sure I think the sony pay for loot cards is a really stupid implemenation of it. You take the worst attributes of collectible card games and mix them with the additction of little numbers. I wouldn't use that method either.
However we aren't discussing any particular RMT, just whether it should be around or not... or as the thread title, how we feel about it.
I do think that if done right, meaning that the devs are sensitive to what people are doing in the game and give both the RMT and P2P crown equal and as balanced methods of achieving their goals, then everyone wins. If you use it spike revenues with unobtainable game items or random loot cards, well I won't be playing that. If you give me methods to bypass parts of the game that I don't like, then I'll probably stay.
* Guild Wars had PvP unlock packs, that's a good idea.
* XP potions: Good idea for the time challenged to keep pace with friends
* Item Shop: As long as the items aren't riddiculously hard to obtain in the game, good idea.
* Currency Purchasing: Good idea only in that you are going to have it in the game anyway and I'd rather see the devs get the cash than someone else.
* Costume packs: Good idea, directly justify animators and artisits on the dev staff
* Random loot cards with unobtainable in game items: Really bad idea
* Unobtainable or items required to continue the game: Bad idea unless it's a totally FTP game, then it's really cost dependand
* FTP game that requires a typical outlay of more than a PTP model just to play for a month: bad idea
The idea of RMT is fine, and you won't get rid of it even if the Devs stop using it. However, there are plenty of bad RMT examples on the market now. Sony perhaps being the most eggregious.
yeah yahoo bravo.
Someone comes up with business models. Alternate ways of doing it, possible ways of implementing RMT, that might be profitable and having varying impact on the gameplay.
Oh damn it bstripp, I was asking Zlayer to give us his model, now you provide him answers to copy. That don't count. Copying bstripp's very interesting answer won't count as Zlayer's term paper. Punt intended.
Orhedos and Madeux you both know what I think about RMT we been down this road to many times now. So I see no real point in putting in any more effort in trying to convince you Both that RMT is actually bad business. But I can put the focus on that you argue for the RMT in as mush a fanatical manner as I argue against it. MY post was not directed at you but for readers of this thread. To look at your history and see OMG these two have made 10+ post now both where they do all they can to, discredit and crush any arguments that are negative towards RMT. Iv tried realy hard to see your point but all I see in the future if you get yoru way, Is CASH shop going up all over the place and milking us dry. All the Developers are angry about 3rd party sellers of thier virtual proparty. If we as consumers say hey we dont mind buying from you instead and we dont think of it as cheating. Then I will promise you Both! that in a mather of days every game that is p2p will start selling thier gold and items ingame. What we are left with then is Entropida Universe, do you realy want all games to be like this in the Future??
RMT done wrong can be absolutely horrible, we're both in agreement on that. Where we differ is that I can see where I can, and will likely, work out.
I played Requiem for a while, and did not pay any money. And I had FUN. Did it hurt me that others paid money and got weapons and leveled faster? Nope, not at all. It's not a competition.
I like the idea of being able to play the games casually like that... I can't afford P2P subs for every game I want to play. If I want to have more options, then F2P is a good alternative. If I want to spend a little money in a cash shop, great. But if I don't, I don't have to, and I can still have fun.
Do you really believe that a poll of 200 people in a predominantly F2P-averse community carries more weight than a half a decade of reports and studies showing that item mall MMOs are vastly more popular than subscription based? What "reports" are those? Why do you believe they are unbiased?
The fact is, more people play F2P games with RMT than P2P games. What do you base that assumption on?
Plenty of links and facts have been posted here. Even the most cursory of google searches will give you all the information you want. At the same time, when you've been asked to provide data or references to support what you've been falsely stating as fact ("RMT is a fringe market" for example) you have pretty much refused to provide any (well, because there isn't any).
The name suits you, bro. Welcome to the block list.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Comments
Wait... if the game is designed around buying items to enhance the fun and the player finds it fun to buy the items....
...then how is that the wrong game for that person?
I am speaking of P2P games trying to force item shops on people. I wasn't speaking of the casino games/ real life money games that F2P games are. I have always avoided them anyhow.
whatever game it is Lynx is right.
He who has the money and willing to spend it can do it so long as it is within the brackets of law. Jealousy from your QQs only shows "sour grape" tears. If you do not want to pay, go play something else.
Thousands of people pay money online to change the look of their icons in chatrooms. Thousands of people pay thousands of dollars to download odd sound waves and songs for their mobiles. Thousands ... . What do I mean to say?
NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS.
You are taking this too personal. I am not angry. If you think this is about jealousy then you I am afraid have missed the whole reason people play games. The fact is you are arguing for RMT Did I argue for RMT? Did you read or just assume anyone who does not agree with you is on the other side of the camp? All I am saying is, RMT is not the only factor relevant, quality of gameplay is all, and RMT is only one factor contributing to gameplay. because of jealousy of others. I myself find RMT a disgusting perversion on rpg gaming because it goes against what gaming is. Games are meant to be enjoyed by playing them. So play them the way you want BUT leave others to play the way they want to. Swiping a credit card for items isn't playing a game. You decide how they play their game? You decide how they swipe their card? Play your own game. Why do you bother how they play their game. I smell jealousy again. No way I can explain why you are more concerned with stopping people enjoying their game than playing your own game. If a game is good then you enjoy being in the world playing it. If a game is bad you do not. Buying items with a credit card can never says you, do you speak for everyone? buy you what others get from playing the game and that is the experience of playing the game. That is ultimately what you are paying for the experience of playing the game. Yeah, just as lynnx said, he enjoys paying for the items, that is he is paying for his own version of fun, NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS, unless you are jealous
If it was not then it wouldn't be called a game. Buying items online doesn't equal a game or game content. Says you, you decide for all of us what is game? That is a lazy way for a developer to make money. Stop making decisions for others, let the developer do it the way he wants, you are not obama, and even if you are obama, you have no say on how a game developer earns money. Making fun content to be played is what a game is. All the things you mention below are not classified as games. Says you again, stop making decisions for everyone else on what is game. Unlike you I do just that, if I find a game unfun I quit it. Then quit, but stop telling me that I must quit because you do. I no longer support them with my money. A game adds an item shop that I am playing, I quit. I no longer want the product. If you were smart you would see that if a game design isn't for you then you move to one that is fun and for you. If I am smart I must follow you without my own view, if i have my own views I am not smart? WoW wonderful way of argument, either way I am stupid. OK let me try "If you are smart, you should give me all your money", right? Giving developers money for virtual pixels to bypass their game content isn't the answer. The answer would be to find that game that you find fun without having to bypass the content. Says you, you define what is fun for us all?
All you are doing is relentlessly pushing your own idea on what is fun, what is game content, what should be priced, all your personal views. Then you suddenly turn that personal view into a truth, an orthodox and call us un-smart if we do not follow you. Come on, MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS. I have my own brain, my own life, my own views. I can decide on what to do with my money, Lynnx already told you what he enjoys, accept the fact that your view stays with you, it has no binding effects on us, and that does not indicate you are smart or me/lynnx is not smart.
Stop preaching like a priest. Your idea is not the Bible. Not following you does not mean condemnation to hell. I do not see RMT as a single most important factor affecting gameplay, it all depends on how the game is designed, and if there is RMT, how RMT fits in. It also depends on the game community, and the way the developer controls the evolution of the game community. RMT is just one factor. Judging a game on just one factor is a very narrow way of thinking. Open you mind.
Last but most important of all, stop telling us your views as if it is the only possible way of looking at things. Enough people told you they do not see things your way. If you cannot accept the fact that each of us has a brain, and can judge on our own, discussions stops here.
AND do not put words into my mouth. I never said I support RMT for the sake of RMT. Not finding it a serious problem does not mean I support it without reservations. Things are not always black and white.
(1) IF a game with RMT is still fun for me, and worth the sub in my view, I sub and play.
(2) IF the game sux for me, I won't play it, RMT or not.
Simple as that.
You are right, I am just as bias as everyone else. You feel your money is more important than my time, and I feel my time is more important than your money. There I said it! =P
Let me put the trivialization of time aside because it is bias and opinion.
I'm not on a mission to change your mind but to tell you my perspective. Like I said before though. I do not like those RMT heavy games but I think they should exist for people like you. I have problems when people try to pull that crap in games that it is not meant for. If the rules state that you cannot do something that means you cannot do that something. If you do you are a cheater. No if ands or buts, you are a cheater. There is no justification for it. So logically, if you break the rules, and become a cheater, did you play the game fair? I do not care for what ever reason. Did you play fair?
Do you honestly expect me to pretend the game is fair when you have broken the stated rules?
For the simple fact you have extra money you are willing to burn, the rules do not apply to you anymore?
If you truly feel this way then, fine.... we will just have to agree to disagree.
Two seperate issues,
(1) If the developer allows his own form of RMT, using it is within the rules of the game. Whether that makes a game enjoyable depends on the player.
(2) If the gamer forbids RMT, then hooking up the gold seller is 100% illegal. No exception. Gold seller for me is sin.
Are you referring to the micropayment model by any chance?
I'm not a big fan of those, but if its just for good character looks (like maplestory) its fine in my opinion.
However, I agree with blizzard entertainment that all RMT that gives players a significant edge over others should not be allowed. How significant? Being more powerful. If it slightly helps them to level up faster, sooner or later they reach endgame, so no worries about that. Their level 60 powerleveled mage would be just as powerful as your level 60 slowboated mage.
If you are talking about nice cool items that are different from that in game in terms of firepower are the same (just additional features, see Combat Arms for more details), then its allright, but if its a one hit kill machine gun that auto aims and head/nutshots everyone then its bad...
Just my $0.02
You are right, I am just as bias as everyone else. You feel your money is more important than my time, and I feel my time is more important than your money. There I said it! =P
Let me put the trivialization of time aside because it is bias and opinion.
I'm not on a mission to change your mind but to tell you my perspective. Like I said before though. I do not like those RMT heavy games but I think they should exist for people like you. I have problems when people try to pull that crap in games that it is not meant for. If the rules state that you cannot do something that means you cannot do that something. If you do you are a cheater. No if ands or buts, you are a cheater. There is no justification for it. So logically, if you break the rules, and become a cheater, did you play the game fair? I do not care for what ever reason. Did you play fair?
Do you honestly expect me to pretend the game is fair when you have broken the stated rules?
For the simple fact you have extra money you are willing to burn, the rules do not apply to you anymore?
If you truly feel this way then, fine.... we will just have to agree to disagree.
Two seperate issues,
(1) If the developer allows his own form of RMT, using it is within the rules of the game. Whether that makes a game enjoyable depends on the player.
(2) If the gamer forbids RMT, then hooking up the gold seller is 100% illegal. No exception. Gold seller for me is sin.
That's exactly what I have been saying from the beginning >.<
Why? I think this argument only makes sense if there is no level cap.
Otherwise, you reach level 50 in a day, a week, a month, a year, what difference does it make?
All will reach level 50, all will do the same number of quests, kill the same number of mobs to reach level 50 more or less.
Why does it make any difference how fast you do it?
You will play for 100 hours too won't you? Just not in 5 days. So how is it so unfaiir, that one person plays the 100 hours in 5 days (20 hours a day) and you play the 100 hours in 3 months? Is it that you feel the person that plays 100 hours in 5 days is getting a cheaper subscription rate per hour than you?
Does that REALLY make so much difference at 14.95 per month?
This is what I don't understand. Why? Why does it make any difference if you make level 5 in one day, or one week?
You will also play 8 hours. Just not in a day. You will do the SAME quests, and kill the SAME mobs, and play the SAME 8 hours as the other person, but you will do it in a week or a month, instead of a day.
Why does this feel unfair to you? Is it that you feel he got a better deal on his 14.95 per month? Or is it something else? If something else, what in the world can it be?
You're absolutely no different than him on the game. You play 8 hours, he plays 8 hours, you both do the same content. Why would you want to play on his schedule instead of yours? Are you upset that he will get to the end game in a faster number of days? If you measure the game in content, you will do the EXACT same content as him to get to the end game. Why the rush?
In the above quote, you said you measure progress by what you can do in the game, now you're measuring it by levels per day?
To those supporting RMT, and saying it's "fair" I ask you to take a look at the poll.
Why in your opinion do over 3/4's of those that responded dislike RMT and think it's "unfair".
Are all those people ignorant of what it means to be "fair" in a game?
Is it your contention that all those people that voted are wrong, RMT is totally fair, and the only reason people say it's not fair is "jealously" because they can't buy the items?
I've been accused of this repeatedly in this thread, but I COULD buy all the items in an RMT game if I wanted to. Why would I be "jealous" if I could easily buy most of the itmes anyone else does? I'm not saying I could keep up with the most outrageous spender on an RMT game, but 100 bucks, 200 per month on items? Sure, I have hobbies that cost more than that.
So if I'm not jealous because I"m broke and can't afford the items anyone else buys, then why would I be so "jealous" in an RMT game?
Perhaps people do feel it's about "fairness" and it's not all just motivated by "jealously"?
Your poll is not scientific, it represents no known population, it is not scientifically modelled to provide distribution and disperse (standard deviation, biasness) measures. In simple terms its useless.
Just putting up a randomly carelessly worded poll here, with no control over population, sampling, voting, validation or QC will not get you any information reliable. Otherwise, everyone on a message board is a researcher or statistician.
Last but most important of all fairness is not a number, it is a view. There is no objective common measure, unlike age. Even if you construct a scale of 1 to 10, my 9/10 is not your 9/10. Doing a poll like that on a subjective measure is a big NO in statistical theory.
I know it may not seem that way, but I do respect your opinion. Honestly, I have never done any RMT in any game. I don't play them since for the most part I have yet to find one that's engaging enough to warrant paying to unlock things. If I did, well that would be fine.
The only real reason I'm debating in this thread is that I do see a very clear need for RMT in games. While I have yet to use them, I also don't see them as competition. Read this thread and there are tons of people who feel different. They want to play a fair game, yet are playing with a completely unfair set of rules. Adding RMT into the mix actually levels the playing field if it is done right. Granted, I have yet to see one that's done right and a lot of them are shameless money grabs. That doesn't mean that the model is bad, just that devs haven't really worked it out yet.
Now, I don't think that my money is more important than your time, but I do think that for people without time, there should be another avenue for them to achieve the same goals in the game.
If the goal of the game if PvP and I hate grinding, then being able to buy out of that portion of the game would be fine. Some people can't/don't/won't level a character due to repetitive inane content against bad AI. Since it's a game, the devs should happily take their money and let that person get to the PvP they want.
If I want to catch up to a friend who is playing and don't want to either bug someone for a PL, or go through the tedium of doing it, perhaps those XP potions or literally buying levels would work. I can catch my friends who started several months before me and play with them.
It really doesn't make a difference what the reason is. Some people don't have the time to put into the long grinds that are in most games. Should they not play them? Perhaps, but that's not for you and I to decide where they should spend their entertainment dollars.
As for gold selling, that's a whole nother ball of yarn. On one side, I agree that if it's not allowed it's cheating. On the other, devs are downright stupid for not selling their own gold or having a currency that's not tradeable. Goldselling is going to happen regardless of what legalities you place on them. They might as well get the cash which would help fund more resources into the game.
While goldselling is illegal in many games, most MMO players are happy to be twinked. Is there really all that much difference? So there's yet another hypocritical stance that most people have on RMT. They'll complain about how buying gold is cheating, but be more than happy to transfer gold from a higher level toon, or guildmate.
Because the audience here is skewed on that direction? Do you really believe that a poll of 200 people in a predominantly F2P-averse community carries more weight than a half a decade of reports and studies showing that item mall MMOs are vastly more popular than subscription based?
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Because the audience here is skewed on that direction? Do you really believe that a poll of 200 people in a predominantly F2P-averse community carries more weight than a half a decade of reports and studies showing that item mall MMOs are vastly more popular than subscription based?
Considering the user base here, I'm surprised by the number of people who are ok with RMT. This forum hardly represents the mmo community as a whole. The majority of people here absolutely HATE the most popular P2P mmo on the planet... obviously the results of any poll from this forum is scewed and statistically worthless.
The fact is, more people play F2P games with RMT than P2P games.
Life itself isn't "fair". And it's not "Fair" that I have to go to work and raise a family and can't spend 10 hours a day on an MMO. I play games to have fun, and if paying a little money to skip a little grind and get down to the fun parts is the way I wanna play, then so be it. When I face you in PVP, you have no way to know if I bought the sword I'm beating you down with, or if I wasted 20 hours of my life farming for gold to buy it.
I still love my disneyland analogy the best. If we're all gonna meet at disneyland, does it matter how we get there? If I have money and can afford to fly, but you can't so you have to take days to get there by car, does that mean we have to stand in line at Space Mountain and argue about who got there the right way? About how unfair it was that I got to fly? About how I'm not allowed to enjoy the ride as much as you because you "earned" it and I didn't?
Ihmotepp, not a bad point. However, I would say that in most games with a level cap, there is more than the level cap to "finish" your character. In fact, developers go to great pains so that you never quite finish your character. There's always something else out there that you want... or they feel that people will leave. So while there might be a level cap, in many games there is a near infinite progression.
However, I totally agree with you. It doesn't matter to me that it takes me a year to do what you might be able to do in a week. Why? Because it's not a competition and I don't compare myself to you when I am playing. It's not fair, but as long as it's an enjoyable experience that's ok.
Which is why you really shouldn't care if RMT is in a game. It doesn't matter if it's not fair as entertainment doesn't require an element of fairness. By their very nature MMOs are not fair, you have class balance, item balance, dev changes, time imbalance, and what not.
If you go back in the thread, I bring up the fact that time is unfair to point out that your requirement to compare characters across the game is just as biased by time constraints as it would be with money constraints. I'm arguing that you shouldn't compare characters and you shouldn't care that someone can leap ahead with their dollars. They are missing out on what you are doing, but so what?
Frankly I don't persoally care about time imbalances, other than to point out that arguing that money imbalances a game is fine, but admit that the game is already imbalanced and that it's a bit hypocritical to pick one bias over the other. Believe me, I and everyone, have opinions that don't make a whole lot of sense. If this is yours so be it, I have my own too.
Your poll is not scientific, it represents no known population, it is not scientifically modelled to provide distribution and disperse (standard deviation, biasness) measures. In simple terms its useless.
Just putting up a randomly carelessly worded poll here, with no control over population, sampling, voting, validation or QC will not get you any information reliable. Otherwise, everyone on a message board is a researcher or statistician.
Last but most important of all fairness is not a number, it is a view. There is no objective common measure, unlike age. Even if you construct a scale of 1 to 10, my 9/10 is not your 9/10. Doing a poll like that on a subjective measure is a big NO in statistical theory.
HAHA.. Orthedos the gallant Knight is on the defence of his RMT queen again!
LOL mate how many threads are there now where you come to the defence of your precious RMT.
I think we need to crown you 1st Defender of the RMT
No mather what people say you spout your red lines all over thier post, disregarding logic and the fact that RMT is both bad from a social standpoint and an extra money grab for developers, take SOE games as an example. Both a monthly fee and a cash shop to milk the customer dry.
Now we get that:
Now please stop this, we have seen thru you, Sorry you wont convince people that spending more money on a game is good for them. Just as you wont convince most Arabs to buy sand from you when they can get if for free.
Good way of discussion; starting by an insult. Where do I champion RMT? I just point out that the poll is useless for anything. Putting up a poorly designed poll is your idea of a good way of argument? If you know anything about market research or statistics, tell me how I am wrong. Smearing me with a bad name and then putting words into my mouth is not a way to gain you any credit. Point out where I said "RMT is good". PROVE IT.
RMT is bad, that is a view not a logic. You are totally nonsense. Something is wrong or bad is a view, and a view has nothing to do with logic. Unless you do not know what logic is.
Will RMT brings in more revenue to a developer? That remains to be seen. WoW has the biggest revenue among all games, RMT is illegal in WoW, apart from services charges to change server. Many RMT based games are struggling with unstable sub base, undisclosed income status, just look at the F2P games list. On the other hand some RMT based games are doing well, while some non RMT games are dying. There is no established pattern than RMT automatically means more revenue. Show us your business model. COME ON, BE A BIG MAN, COME UP WITH SOME SOLID MODELLING. Fancy words don't count as evidence.
(1) I want my game to cost more money, where did I said that. Majority does not want? Prove it, don't quote the silly poll.
(2) I work for an RMT company, prove it again. I honestly think you just escape from a zoo. Honestly, no one above the age of 3 will mix up logic with views and so ceaselessly put words into my mouth.
(3) I want to fork up more money for my games? Prove it.
Oh yeah you have no more ways of argument with me and beg me to stop breaking down your long phrases to empty repeating random noise?
Oh when did I suggest you to spend money. Go check my posting and show me where I said that? Put words into my mouth again?
Oh well, apart from mixing logic with views, championing a nonsense crusade and putting words into my mouth, what other tricks can you come up with.
Prove your claims. I bet you cannot.
Edit notes: Oh yeah I am paraphrasing him and trying to pick fun, I hope he can see how ridulous he has been. Oh well, I tried, I hope he can read thru the exaggerations.
Your poll is not scientific, it represents no known population, it is not scientifically modelled to provide distribution and disperse (standard deviation, biasness) measures. In simple terms its useless.
Just putting up a randomly carelessly worded poll here, with no control over population, sampling, voting, validation or QC will not get you any information reliable. Otherwise, everyone on a message board is a researcher or statistician.
Last but most important of all fairness is not a number, it is a view. There is no objective common measure, unlike age. Even if you construct a scale of 1 to 10, my 9/10 is not your 9/10. Doing a poll like that on a subjective measure is a big NO in statistical theory.
HAHA.. Orthedos the gallant Knight is on the defence of his RMT queen again!
LOL mate how many threads are there now where you come to the defence of your precious RMT.
I think we need to crown you 1st Defender of the RMT
No mather what people say you spout your red lines all over thier post, disregarding logic and the fact that RMT is both bad from a social standpoint and an extra money grab for developers, take SOE games as an example. Both a monthly fee and a cash shop to milk the customer dry.
Now we get that:
Now please stop this, we have seen thru you, Sorry you wont convince people that spending more money on a game is good for them. Just as you wont convince most Arabs to buy sand from you when they can get if for free.
LOLOLOL I was just about to say that where did you put your two squires Lynx and Madeux and in they swoop like the wind haha man you 3 are like the muskteers one for all and all for one haha
Posts like this are a waste of time for everyone involved, and point out that you really cannot put together a solid argument. Certainly you can at least put some effort into it?
He brings up all very valid points as far as polls are concerned, and when you cannot counter them in a legitimate manner, you decide to ridiculously attack his character. Which is rather comical, because in doing so you reveal your own true character.
Ihmotepp, not a bad point. However, I would say that in most games with a level cap, there is more than the level cap to "finish" your character. In fact, developers go to great pains so that you never quite finish your character. There's always something else out there that you want... or they feel that people will leave. So while there might be a level cap, in many games there is a near infinite progression.
However, I totally agree with you. It doesn't matter to me that it takes me a year to do what you might be able to do in a week. Why? Because it's not a competition and I don't compare myself to you when I am playing. It's not fair, but as long as it's an enjoyable experience that's ok.
Which is why you really shouldn't care if RMT is in a game. It doesn't matter if it's not fair as entertainment doesn't require an element of fairness. By their very nature MMOs are not fair, you have class balance, item balance, dev changes, time imbalance, and what not.
If you go back in the thread, I bring up the fact that time is unfair to point out that your requirement to compare characters across the game is just as biased by time constraints as it would be with money constraints. I'm arguing that you shouldn't compare characters and you shouldn't care that someone can leap ahead with their dollars. They are missing out on what you are doing, but so what?
Frankly I don't persoally care about time imbalances, other than to point out that arguing that money imbalances a game is fine, but admit that the game is already imbalanced and that it's a bit hypocritical to pick one bias over the other. Believe me, I and everyone, have opinions that don't make a whole lot of sense. If this is yours so be it, I have my own too.
Another way to look at the problem of RMT Bstripp is that in games like Entropida universe PLED (thier ingame money) is worth Real money. So people spend 50-100 thousand dollars in that game. Now to me this is boarding on the Insane. And it lures in people that hope to make a big buck playing. Now a totaly new audiance will start playing MMOs. The same people who play Poker and aother casino games. RMT in mmos need to go before we are all sitting in a virtual MMORPG casino playing with our last dollar becuase we realy wanted to get that fancy cape for our Avatar. Many MMO players are also children and we need to take a moral stand against game distributor SOE who now both have monthly fees and cash shops to milk us dry.
RMT is not a good way to go... Time will always be free ( not healthy playing 24/7 and this also needs to stop, as people both have died and let other bad stuff happen while they just kept playing.
Addiction to video games wont become better if we indroduce more Cash in the equation. And the potential social problem of people becoming bankrupt for playing a video game is something that I dont want to see.
I spoke a bit about this earlier. The numbers don't surprise me at all.
Most of us are conditioned early on that rich people buying their way out of things is wrong... which on a social standpoint usually makes sense. Especially when it comes to competitions or achievements, you should earn your way and stand on your own two feet! It's a societal norm that resonates across many ethnicities and societies.
I think that most MMO players do compare themselves to other people's toons. I have seen enough threads about people who are concerned that someone else is getting their achievemets too easy. Look at any nerf thread for examples. Sadly too many people take these games, and the carrot numbers that are dangled in front of them serriously enough that it is a competition. You said it yourself, "MMOs are about character progression".
While that's totally valid, I don't want to tell you how you should enjoy a game. If making the numbers bigger than other people makes you happy so be it. However, if that's the case, you should at least acknowledge the inherent bias of the system. Time. Beyond a straight acumulation plenty of developers put in content that has to be copleted in sequential chunks of time.
So if it's about the fairness of the little numbers, then if you want to keep money out of the equation, you should really make sure that time is evened across the board as well. Perhaps you can only play a character for 10 hours and that's it. Once my character hits 10 hours we can compare them and see who's better! Now it might take me a couple of weeks to get there, but if it's about fairness, then make it about fairness.
MMOs are not fair. At all. Not even close. Chess is fair. Checkers is fair. Soccer is fair. Baseball is fair. MMOs, not close.
However, they don't need to be. Nor do other entertainment mediums: movies, plays, books. You do them for the experience and fun of doing them. In which case, RMT should never matter to you or your sense of fairness. If I skip to the end of the book and read the last page, it doesn't impact whether or not you liked the story.
Fairness and jealousy are two sides of the same word. If you are not jealous, then you don't care that it's not fair. Yes, I do think that people who do not like RMT are jealous. I do think they feel that it's unfair that people can buy their way out of things they could or do not. It's kind of how we are wired. I wish more people would look at MMOs as games and not competitions, there'd be a lot less virtriol in many of the forums...
Which brings us back to the number of people playing F2P vs the number playing P2P which, if I remember correctly, we were still waiting for you to get back to us with your numbers.
Who is "we"? As I recall, you are the only one who ever asked that strawman question.
Oh I get why people are upset. Like any argument on an MMO it's a case of the have's vs. the have nots. I just am waiting for people to realize that time is really just as unfair as RMT. Both time and money are commodities that most of us have in limited quantities.
Regardless of how unfair it is for some people to have more time, making the game MORE unfair via RMT is not the solution IMO. And apparently the opinion of most people here if this poll is any indication.
If we are competing and you have had 100 hours to play whack a mole and I have only had 10 hours to do so, which of us is going to be better?
So if you pay $5 and get to win automatically, that makes it more fair? Gimme a break.
Sure I can put another 90 hours in, but by that time you have put in 1000 hours. Is that fair?
Sure it is...you could put in the extra time if you really wanted to. Time is free for everyone. Money is not.
And it isnt like time=win in all MMOs anyway. I've been playing Eve for years, but there are people who have been playing 6 months who could kick my ass. Even in a battleship.
So while the time rich player uses more resources, demands more content, and is a worse value to the game, the RMT player is a benefit to the devs, uses less content and places additional funds into the coffer.
...which does them no good if it drives away a more lucrative income stream in the process...which was the point I was trying to make with this poll.
Orhedos and Madeux you both know what I think about RMT we been down this road to many times now. So I see no real point in putting in any more effort in trying to convince you Both that RMT is actually bad business.
But I can put the focus on that you argue for the RMT in as mush a fanatical manner as I argue against it. MY post was not directed at you but for readers of this thread. To look at your history and see OMG these two have made 10+ post now both where they do all they can to, discredit and crush any arguments that are negative towards RMT.
Iv tried realy hard to see your point but all I see in the future if you get yoru way, Is CASH shop going up all over the place and milking us dry.
All the Developers are angry about 3rd party sellers of thier virtual proparty. If we as consumers say hey we dont mind buying from you instead and we dont think of it as cheating. Then I will promise you Both! that in a mather of days every game that is p2p will start selling thier gold and items ingame.
What we are left with then is Entropida Universe, do you realy want all games to be like this in the Future??
Ihmotepp, not a bad point. However, I would say that in most games with a level cap, there is more than the level cap to "finish" your character. In fact, developers go to great pains so that you never quite finish your character. There's always something else out there that you want... or they feel that people will leave. So while there might be a level cap, in many games there is a near infinite progression.
However, I totally agree with you. It doesn't matter to me that it takes me a year to do what you might be able to do in a week. Why? Because it's not a competition and I don't compare myself to you when I am playing. It's not fair, but as long as it's an enjoyable experience that's ok.
Which is why you really shouldn't care if RMT is in a game. It doesn't matter if it's not fair as entertainment doesn't require an element of fairness. By their very nature MMOs are not fair, you have class balance, item balance, dev changes, time imbalance, and what not.
If you go back in the thread, I bring up the fact that time is unfair to point out that your requirement to compare characters across the game is just as biased by time constraints as it would be with money constraints. I'm arguing that you shouldn't compare characters and you shouldn't care that someone can leap ahead with their dollars. They are missing out on what you are doing, but so what?
Frankly I don't persoally care about time imbalances, other than to point out that arguing that money imbalances a game is fine, but admit that the game is already imbalanced and that it's a bit hypocritical to pick one bias over the other. Believe me, I and everyone, have opinions that don't make a whole lot of sense. If this is yours so be it, I have my own too.
Another way to look at the problem of RMT Bstripp is that in games like Entropida universe PLED (thier ingame money) is worth Real money. So people spend 50-100 thousand dollars in that game. Now to me this is boarding on the Insane. And it lures in people that hope to make a big buck playing. Now a totaly new audiance will start playing MMOs. The same people who play Poker and aother casino games. RMT in mmos need to go before we are all sitting in a virtual MMORPG casino playing with our last dollar becuase we realy wanted to get that fancy cape for our Avatar. Many MMO players are also children and we need to take a moral stand against game distributor SOE who now both have monthly fees and cash shops to milk us dry.
RMT is not a good way to go... Time will always be free ( not healthy playing 24/7 and this also needs to stop, as people both have died and let other bad stuff happen while they just kept playing.
Addiction to video games wont become better if we indroduce more Cash in the equation. And the potential social problem of people becoming bankrupt for playing a video game is something that I dont want to see.
Now that is a semi valid concern.
But tell you what, the biggest casino will never be in games, It takes too long, and gamblers want instant win or loss. The biggest online casino is in sports. From NBA to soccer to every sports on earth. The worldwide gambling turnover in just 1 european games final can easily beat 10 years of blizzard income.
Just as a hint, despite the super billion annual salary, the biggest players has to cooperate with the semi illegal gambling bodies. You know why? The turnover (winning or losing one match) for one match >> his life time income. He makes more faking the game once than playing it trufully for a life time. On the other hand, if he does not cooperate, he will cost the gambling company so much money, that is it cheaper to replace him or even kill him than having him play and upset the bets.
Now that is big serious gambling money. WoW or whatever pathetic smaller games with what? 10/20 million bucks a year? Sport gambling is billions a day.
But you do see that you are talking about a bad implementation of RMT, which doesn't mean that RMT is all bad. Sure I think the sony pay for loot cards is a really stupid implemenation of it. You take the worst attributes of collectible card games and mix them with the additction of little numbers. I wouldn't use that method either.
However we aren't discussing any particular RMT, just whether it should be around or not... or as the thread title, how we feel about it.
I do think that if done right, meaning that the devs are sensitive to what people are doing in the game and give both the RMT and P2P crown equal and as balanced methods of achieving their goals, then everyone wins. If you use it spike revenues with unobtainable game items or random loot cards, well I won't be playing that. If you give me methods to bypass parts of the game that I don't like, then I'll probably stay.
* Guild Wars had PvP unlock packs, that's a good idea.
* XP potions: Good idea for the time challenged to keep pace with friends
* Item Shop: As long as the items aren't riddiculously hard to obtain in the game, good idea.
* Currency Purchasing: Good idea only in that you are going to have it in the game anyway and I'd rather see the devs get the cash than someone else.
* Costume packs: Good idea, directly justify animators and artisits on the dev staff
* Random loot cards with unobtainable in game items: Really bad idea
* Unobtainable or items required to continue the game: Bad idea unless it's a totally FTP game, then it's really cost dependand
* FTP game that requires a typical outlay of more than a PTP model just to play for a month: bad idea
The idea of RMT is fine, and you won't get rid of it even if the Devs stop using it. However, there are plenty of bad RMT examples on the market now. Sony perhaps being the most eggregious.
Show me your business model. Do you have one? Yes or No?
Take your time to slowly build a model. We can wait.
For all those crusaders who keeps raising the banner of fairness, may I ask
(1) Whose standard of fairness is fair, yours or mine?
The standard of the majority of MMO players. I thought that was obvious.
(2) Why is fairness the standard for judging games
Because most people feel unfair games are not as fun.
(3) Why do you need me to play in your perceived standard of fairness
I dont. You can play all the unfair games you want. I just dont want to play with you. Thats all.
No one here has made the argument that RMT people should not be allowed to play RMT games. They are amke the argument that THEY dont want to play RMT games.
Simply put, your argument is not convincing.
If you really believe that, whya re you participating in this thread at all? Whats the point?
Your poll is not scientific, it represents no known population
If you have a poll you feel is less biased, feel free to link to it for us.
So far, I havnt seen any polls showing a demand for RMT...just a few columnists who seem to think it is the wave of the future, despite the fact that most people seem to hate it.
IMO, those columnists are simply out of touch.
Because the audience here is skewed on that direction?
Which direction? If anything, I would think the audience here is more RMT friendly than the general population.
Do you really believe that a poll of 200 people in a predominantly F2P-averse community carries more weight than a half a decade of reports and studies showing that item mall MMOs are vastly more popular than subscription based?
What "reports" are those? Why do you believe they are unbiased?
The fact is, more people play F2P games with RMT than P2P games.
What do you base that assumption on?
Life itself isn't "fair". And it's not "Fair" that I have to go to work and raise a family and can't spend 10 hours a day on an MMO.
Fine...is it then fair that you can spend 4 hours a week playing while I can only spend 1 hour? How far do you want to go?
Making the game less fair isnt the solution IMO.
I still love my disneyland analogy the best. If we're all gonna meet at disneyland, does it matter how we get there?
Disneyland isnt a competitive environment. Thats why that analogy fails.
But you do see that you are talking about a bad implementation of RMT, which doesn't mean that RMT is all bad. Sure I think the sony pay for loot cards is a really stupid implemenation of it. You take the worst attributes of collectible card games and mix them with the additction of little numbers. I wouldn't use that method either.
However we aren't discussing any particular RMT, just whether it should be around or not... or as the thread title, how we feel about it.
I do think that if done right, meaning that the devs are sensitive to what people are doing in the game and give both the RMT and P2P crown equal and as balanced methods of achieving their goals, then everyone wins. If you use it spike revenues with unobtainable game items or random loot cards, well I won't be playing that. If you give me methods to bypass parts of the game that I don't like, then I'll probably stay.
* Guild Wars had PvP unlock packs, that's a good idea.
* XP potions: Good idea for the time challenged to keep pace with friends
* Item Shop: As long as the items aren't riddiculously hard to obtain in the game, good idea.
* Currency Purchasing: Good idea only in that you are going to have it in the game anyway and I'd rather see the devs get the cash than someone else.
* Costume packs: Good idea, directly justify animators and artisits on the dev staff
* Random loot cards with unobtainable in game items: Really bad idea
* Unobtainable or items required to continue the game: Bad idea unless it's a totally FTP game, then it's really cost dependand
* FTP game that requires a typical outlay of more than a PTP model just to play for a month: bad idea
The idea of RMT is fine, and you won't get rid of it even if the Devs stop using it. However, there are plenty of bad RMT examples on the market now. Sony perhaps being the most eggregious.
yeah yahoo bravo.
Someone comes up with business models. Alternate ways of doing it, possible ways of implementing RMT, that might be profitable and having varying impact on the gameplay.
Oh damn it bstripp, I was asking Zlayer to give us his model, now you provide him answers to copy. That don't count. Copying bstripp's very interesting answer won't count as Zlayer's term paper. Punt intended.
RMT done wrong can be absolutely horrible, we're both in agreement on that. Where we differ is that I can see where I can, and will likely, work out.
I played Requiem for a while, and did not pay any money. And I had FUN. Did it hurt me that others paid money and got weapons and leveled faster? Nope, not at all. It's not a competition.
I like the idea of being able to play the games casually like that... I can't afford P2P subs for every game I want to play. If I want to have more options, then F2P is a good alternative. If I want to spend a little money in a cash shop, great. But if I don't, I don't have to, and I can still have fun.
Plenty of links and facts have been posted here. Even the most cursory of google searches will give you all the information you want. At the same time, when you've been asked to provide data or references to support what you've been falsely stating as fact ("RMT is a fringe market" for example) you have pretty much refused to provide any (well, because there isn't any).
The name suits you, bro. Welcome to the block list.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?