If the model of RMT gives the player the choice to spend time or to spend money, then it's not unfair. That I don't have a problem with. Selling armor and weapons that can't be obtained in the game, and give the paying player an advantage over the non-paying player, is unfair. I would have a problem with that.
That seems to be the middle ground and an area where most people agree. Games where a person with extra time has as much access to items and content as someone with extra money seem to be designed in a rahter fair and balanced manner to most. Games where content is only accessible through money, however doesn't really seem to sit well with many - including many of the people who are avid fans of item malls.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
If the model of RMT gives the player the choice to spend time or to spend money, then it's not unfair. That I don't have a problem with. Selling armor and weapons that can't be obtained in the game, and give the paying player an advantage over the non-paying player, is unfair. I would have a problem with that.
That seems to be the middle ground and an area where most people agree. Games where a person with extra time has as much access to items and content as someone with extra money seem to be designed in a rahter fair and balanced manner to most. Games where content is only accessible through money, however doesn't really seem to sit well with many - including many of the people who are avid fans of item malls.
This is precisely the kind of RMT that I'm ok with. And if people really care about "fair", then it is the most fair at all, balancing time versus money. Paying cash buys you nothing that you couldn't earn if you had the time, it just lets some players get to the "fun" part of the game faster. For those who enjoy the grind, they can still have it.
Please note that no one here is talking about buying top level characters with maxed out stats and items, we're talking about buying a few weapons or pieces of armor, or xp pots, things like that. And please, no whining about paying real cash for items that don't exist. We're not really buying items, we're buying entertainment just like everyone else.
Yes, we all have 24 hours in a day. However, the amount of disposable time that we recieve differs vastly. This is no different than each of us having differing amounts of cash to spend on our entertainment. I personally think it's unfair that you can play for 8 hours a day while I have other responsibilities that have to be met if my family is going to have a roof over their head and food on the table. I don't choose to work over play, I have to work over play. Frankly those people trivialize anything that I will ever do and their limitless time creates an unfair gulf that I can not catch up. Because for how ever many hours I put in, they will be putting in 4x those hours. You can argue that people have the same ability to earn money and choose to play games instead. Both time and money are limited comodoties for most people. True, there is less varriance in time and the caps are much harder, but in practice, both are completely limited, and both affect your game experience.
This is what I don't understand. Why? Why does it make any difference if you make level 5 in one day, or one week?
You will also play 8 hours. Just not in a day. You will do the SAME quests, and kill the SAME mobs, and play the SAME 8 hours as the other person, but you will do it in a week or a month, instead of a day.
Why does this feel unfair to you? Is it that you feel he got a better deal on his 14.95 per month? Or is it something else? If something else, what in the world can it be?
You're absolutely no different than him on the game. You play 8 hours, he plays 8 hours, you both do the same content. Why would you want to play on his schedule instead of yours? Are you upset that he will get to the end game in a faster number of days? If you measure the game in content, you will do the EXACT same content as him to get to the end game. Why the rush?
In the above quote, you said you measure progress by what you can do in the game, now you're measuring it by levels per day?
You make a very good point with this post. Great post!
Yeah but the money and time thing are very much the same quantity when it comes to giving you a "fair" game. While we may have different salaries (and belive me, mine isn't any great shakes. I'm not going to be out buying a whole lot of people here. I'm arguing from the perspective of inclusion and fairness) we also are going to have different amounts of free time that varry just as much as our salaries in terms of %s. Just because a day has a hard cap does nothing to smooth out the amount of free time that people have. If you are a student on summer vacation, you'll certainly beat me as a salaryman... add in a family, coaching, and other parental obligations and time is something that quickly disappears to obligations. For each story you have of an addicted RMTer, I'll point you to a divorcee who lost everything because they had to put time into their guild/game/raids or what not. Both of them are limited comodities for all but the extremely weathy who coincidentally have both money and time. When you tell me that we might have differing money but everyone shares the same time, I could tell you that you have the ability to earn what I do, get whatever degrees/certifications and some experience and you'll be right in the ballpark of anyone. Now that's just as unrealistic as telling me that I could devote more time because everyone has 24 hours in a day. So when we talk of fair, and thus a competition, I can't hope to play the same game. So already, it's not fair, at least to me. Now perhaps I can out buy you. That's not fair either, granted. However, if there's a happy medium between buying content and working for it, we both should be happy in the long run. While the hour you play is the same as the hour I do... so is the dollar I pay the same as the dollar you pay. Again, both limited quantities that act very much the same in the game world. You can't match my dollars and I can't match your hours. Ironically, we'll be at about the same place in the game... just you'll have had more fun
NOTE: I realize that in reality, based on the social moires of just about everywhere, there will be a stigma to buying something that someone else "worked" for. Of course, I'll say you're playing for entertainment and not working, but that was several posts back.)
And I pointed out it's a non issue because game time only determines when you get something not if. You act like you are losing something if you do not use money to catch up. You treat it like it is a real race and the first to the end wins or something. And no you can't turn it around and say that I can do everything you can do in the same time.
Why you ask?
Because everyone starts the game the same, everyone does not start life in the exact same circumstances. Simple as that =P
You just want to be better without playing. You do not want to put in your time. It's not that you cant, you just do not want to. Yes it may take longer but you spread out the play time. You want to take away from the ones that have a more "concentrated" play time.
Quick Pictorial example
Time goes that way =====>
12 Hours Worth of Content: [][][][][][]
You:[] [] [] [] [] []
Me :[] [] [] [] [] []
See what I am getting at? We both completed the same content in the same 12 hours. I got done before you because I did not spread out my 12 hours as much as you did. So now you want to turn around and buy time doing something like this
You:[] [] $$$$<-------- bought this obviously
Me :[] [] [] [] [] []
I have issues with that. There is no point in doing the content if you can buy your way through and my time really means nothing now.
I wouldn't complain if it went like this.
You: [] [] [] [] [] []
Me: [] [] [] [] [] []
But yet you still feel justified?
I know we will not come to an understanding but like I said in my other post, I'm only telling how I feel about it. I know everyone is not like me and that alone is reason enough to have games with this type of RMT. I do not want all games to have this so I can have my "fairness" too.
And I pointed out it's a non issue because game time only determines when you get something not if. You act like you are losing something if you do not use money to catch up. You treat it like it is a real race and the first to the end wins or something. And no you can't turn it around and say that I can do everything you can do in the same time. Why you ask? Because everyone starts the game the same, everyone does not start life in the exact same circumstances. Simple as that =P You just want to be better without playing. You do not want to put in your time. It's not that you cant, you just do not want to. Yes it may take longer but you spread out the play time. You want to take away from the ones that have a more "concentrated" play time. Quick Pictorial example Time goes that way =====> 12 Hours Worth of Content: [][][][][][] You:[] [] [] [] [] [] Me :[] [] [] [] [] [] See what I am getting at? We both completed the same content in the same 12 hours. I got done before you because I did not spread out my 12 hours as much as you did. So now you want to turn around and buy time doing something like this You:[] [] $$$$<-------- bought this obviously Me :[] [] [] [] [] []
I have issues with that. There is no point in doing the content if you can buy your way through and my time really means nothing now. I wouldn't complain if it went like this. You: [] [] [] [] [] [] Me: [] [] [] [] [] [] But yet you still feel justified? I know we will not come to an understanding but like I said in my other post, I'm only telling how I feel about it. I know everyone is not like me and that alone is reason enough to have games with this type of RMT. I do not want all games to have this so I can have my "fairness" too. (I hope My picture comes out right lol )
Two things with this. First is that I don't really care if the MMO is fair or not. My point on doing the content is for the content's sake. If it's not fun, I won't do it and won't buy past it unless there is a reasonable expectation that it will get better later in the game. So from my perspective, there is no you and me. There's me, my time, and money if I so choose to use it. I make the assumption that you are fully capable of enjoying yourself or you wouldn't be there.
With that said, I have talked at length on fairness. Mind you only because I hope that people can see that spending one currency to get ahead; time, is no different than spending another currency to get ahead; money. Both of them are things that everyone has in limited supply. Assuming that we all are trying to get to some point, it would be more fair to either limit both players to a certain amount of time/money.
Now why is it not fair? Because the constant between us is that our characters have existed for a certain amount of time in the game. Say we each have subbed for two months, I will only have say 80 hours while you have 240. Next two months the gulf widens. Even though we started at the same point, you will race ahead of me because you have more currency than me. I can do each of the examples you used above and sub in money.
I can claim that you can spend the same as me, it will just take you longer to get the money to spend it. See it's the same arguement. We each can claim the other can legitimately achieve the same goals in game using the others limited currency. What I can not do is convince you that my currency is better or worse than yours, since that is societal and personally based.
Two things with this. First is that I don't really care if the MMO is fair or not. My point on doing the content is for the content's sake. If it's not fun, I won't do it and won't buy past it unless there is a reasonable expectation that it will get better later in the game. So from my perspective, there is no you and me. There's me, my time, and money if I so choose to use it. I make the assumption that you are fully capable of enjoying yourself or you wouldn't be there. With that said, I have talked at length on fairness. Mind you only because I hope that people can see that spending one currency to get ahead; time, is no different than spending another currency to get ahead; money. Both of them are things that everyone has in limited supply. Assuming that we all are trying to get to some point, it would be more fair to either limit both players to a certain amount of time/money. Now why is it not fair? Because the constant between us is that our characters have existed for a certain amount of time in the game. Say we each have subbed for two months, I will only have say 80 hours while you have 240. Next two months the gulf widens. Even though we started at the same point, you will race ahead of me because you have more currency than me. I can do each of the examples you used above and sub in money. I can claim that you can spend the same as me, it will just take you longer to get the money to spend it. See it's the same arguement. We each can claim the other can legitimately achieve the same goals in game using the others limited currency. What I can not do is convince you that my currency is better or worse than yours, since that is societal and personally based.
^---Awesomesauce.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
And I pointed out it's a non issue because game time only determines when you get something not if. You act like you are losing something if you do not use money to catch up. You treat it like it is a real race and the first to the end wins or something. And no you can't turn it around and say that I can do everything you can do in the same time. Why you ask? Because everyone starts the game the same, everyone does not start life in the exact same circumstances. Simple as that =P You just want to be better without playing. You do not want to put in your time. It's not that you cant, you just do not want to. Yes it may take longer but you spread out the play time. You want to take away from the ones that have a more "concentrated" play time. Quick Pictorial example Time goes that way =====> 12 Hours Worth of Content: [][][][][][] You:[] [] [] [] [] [] Me :[] [] [] [] [] [] See what I am getting at? We both completed the same content in the same 12 hours. I got done before you because I did not spread out my 12 hours as much as you did. So now you want to turn around and buy time doing something like this You:[] [] $$$$<-------- bought this obviously Me :[] [] [] [] [] []
I have issues with that. There is no point in doing the content if you can buy your way through and my time really means nothing now. I wouldn't complain if it went like this. You: [] [] [] [] [] [] Me: [] [] [] [] [] [] But yet you still feel justified? I know we will not come to an understanding but like I said in my other post, I'm only telling how I feel about it. I know everyone is not like me and that alone is reason enough to have games with this type of RMT. I do not want all games to have this so I can have my "fairness" too. (I hope My picture comes out right lol )
Two things with this. First is that I don't really care if the MMO is fair or not. My point on doing the content is for the content's sake. If it's not fun, I won't do it and won't buy past it unless there is a reasonable expectation that it will get better later in the game. So from my perspective, there is no you and me. There's me, my time, and money if I so choose to use it. I make the assumption that you are fully capable of enjoying yourself or you wouldn't be there.
With that said, I have talked at length on fairness. Mind you only because I hope that people can see that spending one currency to get ahead; time, is no different than spending another currency to get ahead; money. Both of them are things that everyone has in limited supply. Assuming that we all are trying to get to some point, it would be more fair to either limit both players to a certain amount of time/money.
Now why is it not fair? Because the constant between us is that our characters have existed for a certain amount of time in the game. Say we each have subbed for two months, I will only have say 80 hours while you have 240. Next two months the gulf widens. Even though we started at the same point, you will race ahead of me because you have more currency than me. I can do each of the examples you used above and sub in money.
I can claim that you can spend the same as me, it will just take you longer to get the money to spend it. See it's the same arguement. We each can claim the other can legitimately achieve the same goals in game using the others limited currency. What I can not do is convince you that my currency is better or worse than yours, since that is societal and personally based.
This is where I think you are wrong. Does my hour equal your hour in the game? An hour will always equal an hour. So logically Time = Time. You want to argue that Time = certain amount of money. Although that is true but it is not the same for everyone. If everyone made the same amount as everyone else in the real world then I would be fine but it just does not work like that because the real world is unfair. We all have different wages and my hour may only get me $5 where yours gets you $10. Now lets say an hours worth of game content is $5. Does my game time equal your game time in terms of time in reality?
Nope, it takes me an hour to make an hours worth of game time while it only takes you half an hour to make an hours worth of game time. 1 hour of real life = 1 game hour always. That's what I'm getting at. It does not matter If i have more or not that is an absolute. It's the same for everyone there is no changing it but you cant say the same thing about money. That is what I mean by fair.
This is where I think you are wrong. Does my hour equal your hour in the game? An hour will always equal an hour. So logically Time = Time. You want to argue that Time = certain amount of money. Although that is true but it is not the same for everyone. If everyone made the same amount as everyone else in the real world then I would be fine but it just does not work like that because the real world is unfair. We all have different wages and my hour may only get me $5 where yours gets you $10. Now lets say an hours worth of game content is $5. Does my game time equal your game time in terms of time in reality? Nope, it takes me an hour to make an hours worth of game time while it only takes you half an hour to make an hours worth of game time. 1 hour of real life = 1 game hour always. That's what I'm getting at. It does not matter If i have more or not that is an absolute. It's the same for everyone there is no changing it but you cant say the same thing about money. That is what I mean by fair.
It is totally true that your and my hours in the game would be the same. Just as your and my dollars in the game would be the same. What our currency can do does not address how much of that currency we have. So we have Time=Time and Money=Money. Each of us is scarce in one of those commodities. Now if we are designing a system whose goal is to be a fair competition, we would need to have a system that balances our lack of the others currency... or use another medium altogether.
What is the magic time/money balance? It would depend on the game, and the content in that game. It would provide alternative methods for advancement without making them so attractive that those not wanting to partake end up feeling stupid for not using it. That means changing the ratio as they find too many people using one method or the other. That would be ideal by my thinking.
Now what I think you mean in the second paragraph is that I can make my time in the game 2x (or whatever ratio) as effective as your time. So your time becomes less productive than mine in the game. That is true, if I have the same time and spend more money, you will end up much further back than me. So people with time and money will obviously be the real winners in the system...
However, if we are talking about making the game fair without RMT (not my goal or desire, mine would be to make it fun and accessible), how do you account for our complete disparity of hours played? We start on the same day, and no matter what happens, I don't have a hope to compete or even play with you unless there are some very hard caps in place.
That all goes back to making the implementation of RMT worthwhile. I'll totally agree that there are some totally garbage RMT schemes out there. Some that are so egregious that it makes you cringe. That does not invalidate the model as a balancing factor in games. Nor do I think that it disproves how fair/unfair RMT is in a game.
It is totally true that your and my hours in the game would be the same. Just as your and my dollars in the game would be the same. What our currency can do does not address how much of that currency we have. So we have Time=Time and Money=Money. Each of us is scarce in one of those commodities. Now if we are designing a system whose goal is to be a fair competition, we would need to have a system that balances our lack of the others currency... or use another medium altogether. What is the magic time/money balance? It would depend on the game, and the content in that game. It would provide alternative methods for advancement without making them so attractive that those not wanting to partake end up feeling stupid for not using it. That means changing the ratio as they find too many people using one method or the other. That would be ideal by my thinking. Now what I think you mean in the second paragraph is that I can make my time in the game 2x (or whatever ratio) as effective as your time. So your time becomes less productive than mine in the game. That is true, if I have the same time and spend more money, you will end up much further back than me. So people with time and money will obviously be the real winners in the system... However, if we are talking about making the game fair without RMT (not my goal or desire, mine would be to make it fun and accessible), how do you account for our complete disparity of hours played? We start on the same day, and no matter what happens, I don't have a hope to compete or even play with you unless there are some very hard caps in place. That all goes back to making the implementation of RMT worthwhile. I'll totally agree that there are some totally garbage RMT schemes out there. Some that are so egregious that it makes you cringe. That does not invalidate the model as a balancing factor in games. Nor do I think that it disproves how fair/unfair RMT is in a game.
Finally getting somewhere. Yes I do mean that my time is less productive. When it's in place it becomes just totally unfair in my eyes because of what you said. Now making the game fair without RMT is hard to answer. I cannot think of a way where Time = Game Time = Money. The money aspect makes the value of time to ambiguous. That's why I said from the very beginning that both types should exist for both types of people. Kind of a separate but equal ( can't believe I'm saying this since I'm black) setup where you have your RMT games and I have my RMT-free games. That way we can both be happy without messing with each others game... or
have the same game but some servers are RMT enabled and some are not? I'm cool with that as long as we can only transfer to that same type of server.
Two things with this. First is that I don't really care if the MMO is fair or not. My point on doing the content is for the content's sake. If it's not fun, I won't do it and won't buy past it unless there is a reasonable expectation that it will get better later in the game. So from my perspective, there is no you and me. There's me, my time, and money if I so choose to use it. I make the assumption that you are fully capable of enjoying yourself or you wouldn't be there. With that said, I have talked at length on fairness. Mind you only because I hope that people can see that spending one currency to get ahead; time, is no different than spending another currency to get ahead; money. Both of them are things that everyone has in limited supply. Assuming that we all are trying to get to some point, it would be more fair to either limit both players to a certain amount of time/money. Now why is it not fair? Because the constant between us is that our characters have existed for a certain amount of time in the game. Say we each have subbed for two months, I will only have say 80 hours while you have 240. Next two months the gulf widens. Even though we started at the same point, you will race ahead of me because you have more currency than me. I can do each of the examples you used above and sub in money. I can claim that you can spend the same as me, it will just take you longer to get the money to spend it. See it's the same arguement. We each can claim the other can legitimately achieve the same goals in game using the others limited currency. What I can not do is convince you that my currency is better or worse than yours, since that is societal and personally based.
Well this all works out untill you get people like me, I work about 20 hours a week and earn a decent amount of money. So I both a have the time and the money to Invest in an online game. How will this work out when I start playing an RMT game like this. It would not be fair as I would dominate both typs of gamplay.
Iv tried this in IRL on diffrent typs of RMT games and the result is that I get stuff over that I can sell ( im not gona admit to doing anything illegal here but the opportunity to make a fast IRL buck have presented itself on many occasion)
I could for one make a decent amount of IRL money per month in Entropida universe, I admit to this as its legal in that game.
I do still play EvE online for free and just sell ISK for game time cards. totaly legal also.
But RMT games at its current form dose not stop people from still selling under the table. If its cheeper from a 3rd party seller, people will still buy from them. And the transition, when its already available in game is mush easier. That might lead to more people buying from a 3rd party seller if the service is available ingame. Customers are smart dont underestimate them, they will not buy if going over the River cuts the price in half.
That is why I said, yes maybe some sort of Hybrid will work out, but still it dosent solve the Issue with addiction and that Real money transaction games make for a mush more brutal environment. Scams,greifing and exploits are common place in many RMT games, try one like Silkroad for example and you will see what I mean.
This is where I think you are wrong. Does my hour equal your hour in the game? An hour will always equal an hour. So logically Time = Time. You want to argue that Time = certain amount of money. Although that is true but it is not the same for everyone. If everyone made the same amount as everyone else in the real world then I would be fine but it just does not work like that because the real world is unfair. We all have different wages and my hour may only get me $5 where yours gets you $10. Now lets say an hours worth of game content is $5. Does my game time equal your game time in terms of time in reality? Nope, it takes me an hour to make an hours worth of game time while it only takes you half an hour to make an hours worth of game time. 1 hour of real life = 1 game hour always. That's what I'm getting at. It does not matter If i have more or not that is an absolute. It's the same for everyone there is no changing it but you cant say the same thing about money. That is what I mean by fair.
It is totally true that your and my hours in the game would be the same. Just as your and my dollars in the game would be the same. What our currency can do does not address how much of that currency we have. So we have Time=Time and Money=Money. Each of us is scarce in one of those commodities. Now if we are designing a system whose goal is to be a fair competition, we would need to have a system that balances our lack of the others currency... or use another medium altogether.
What is the magic time/money balance? It would depend on the game, and the content in that game. It would provide alternative methods for advancement without making them so attractive that those not wanting to partake end up feeling stupid for not using it. That means changing the ratio as they find too many people using one method or the other. That would be ideal by my thinking.
Now what I think you mean in the second paragraph is that I can make my time in the game 2x (or whatever ratio) as effective as your time. So your time becomes less productive than mine in the game. That is true, if I have the same time and spend more money, you will end up much further back than me. So people with time and money will obviously be the real winners in the system...
However, if we are talking about making the game fair without RMT (not my goal or desire, mine would be to make it fun and accessible), how do you account for our complete disparity of hours played? We start on the same day, and no matter what happens, I don't have a hope to compete or even play with you unless there are some very hard caps in place.
That all goes back to making the implementation of RMT worthwhile. I'll totally agree that there are some totally garbage RMT schemes out there. Some that are so egregious that it makes you cringe. That does not invalidate the model as a balancing factor in games. Nor do I think that it disproves how fair/unfair RMT is in a game.
Instead of time, use content as a measure.
Use quests completed, or mobs killed.
In a P2P game, the mob gives the exact same xp to both of us, the quest gives the exact same xp to both of us.
You cannot measure progress by time, and you should not. An MMORPG is a social game, and you should stand around sometimes chatting and not doing quests or killing mobs. If I stand around for an hour chatting, or just running around looking at the scenery, I will make zero character progress, but I am still spending time, still playing the game.
However, if I kill a mob, or do a quest, I will make the exact same XP or loot (or chance of loot if random) as you will. So that is the measure you should use, content completed.
The other point would be in a F2P game, there will never be any true and exact equality because there is a mix. It is not Time = Time or Money = Money.
Characters are a mix of time and money, and each player will have a different mix.
Or answer this question. I will give you a cookie after you walk one mile. There is no time limit. You may walk the entire mile today, or you may walk a few feet of it each day and take a month to walk the mile. But everyone that walks this mile will get a cookie.
Is that fair? Or is that unfair because someone can spend all day walking and get their cookie faster than you can, taking a few steps each day?
How is that different than, I will make you level 5 when kill 500 mobs, or do 5 quests. You can do it all today, or a little bit each day, but as soon as you finish, I will make you level 5, and anyone that kills 500 mobs will make level 5.
Is that fair, or unfair because someone can kill all 500 mobs in one day, and it takes you 30 days?
If the model of RMT gives the player the choice to spend time or to spend money, then it's not unfair. That I don't have a problem with. Selling armor and weapons that can't be obtained in the game, and give the paying player an advantage over the non-paying player, is unfair. I would have a problem with that.
That seems to be the middle ground and an area where most people agree. Games where a person with extra time has as much access to items and content as someone with extra money seem to be designed in a rahter fair and balanced manner to most. Games where content is only accessible through money, however doesn't really seem to sit well with many - including many of the people who are avid fans of item malls.
This is precisely the kind of RMT that I'm ok with. And if people really care about "fair", then it is the most fair at all, balancing time versus money. Paying cash buys you nothing that you couldn't earn if you had the time, it just lets some players get to the "fun" part of the game faster. For those who enjoy the grind, they can still have it.
Please note that no one here is talking about buying top level characters with maxed out stats and items, we're talking about buying a few weapons or pieces of armor, or xp pots, things like that. And please, no whining about paying real cash for items that don't exist. We're not really buying items, we're buying entertainment just like everyone else.
I think that's the part you don't get.
The grind is no longer fun if you can pay for it instead.
The fun in the game is destroyed for many by the RMT. You may not be one of those people, but take a look at the poll at the beginning of this thread if you don't believe me.
So you can't have your cake and eat it too. YOU can still have the grind if you want it (which you don't), but for the player that feels RMT is unfair, the fun of the grind has been destroyed by RMT. I don't see how you can dispute this, because you would have to tell another person when they are having fun or not, which you cannot do.
I think it really depends on the player. It's your own discretion. I don't do RMT but I'm not saying that I'm against it. RMT is part of the game whether we like it or not. Whatever we do we can't stop or control them. I just want to play and enjoy the game. No need for me to do RMT.
I think it really depends on the player. It's your own discretion. I don't do RMT but I'm not saying that I'm against it. RMT is part of the game whether we like it or not. Whatever we do we can't stop or control them. I just want to play and enjoy the game. No need for me to do RMT.
We can do something about it. If you don't like RMT you can choose to not support the game by not buying it and not playing it. If I don't like something I don't buy it. Simple. Same should go for these folks that think these games are not fair for them so they swipe their card to get pass the parts of the game. Why go to all that trouble when you could just not play it? I would much rather play a game where I find it is fun to be in the game playing it.
RMT is a touchy subject. It all depends on how it is used.
For instance, an example of good RMT in a game (in my OPINION), is cosmetic items. Things like hairdo's, dyes, special clothing, etc...
Where RMT goes wrong is when devs make a game with a great endgame, be it awesome PVP, raiding, or what have you... But make the 100,000,000 levels leading up to it feel like work. You really want to see that awesome part of the game, but there is no realistic way to do it, and the cash shop starts to look like that "Get Out Of Jail Free" card...
I guess what I'm saying is that RMT's should be used to enhance a game, and not be necessary to make it tolerable.
RMT is a touchy subject. It all depends on how it is used.
For instance, an example of good RMT in a game (in my OPINION), is cosmetic items. Things like hairdo's, dyes, special clothing, etc...
Where RMT goes wrong is when devs make a game with a great endgame, be it awesome PVP, raiding, or what have you... But make the 100,000,000 levels leading up to it feel like work. You really want to see that awesome part of the game, but there is no realistic way to do it, and the cash shop starts to look like that "Get Out Of Jail Free" card...
I guess what I'm saying is that RMT's should be used to enhance a game, and not be necessary to make it tolerable.
When people are buying the original game/expansion packs and paying a subscription every month they best get every item in the game including fluff items. I will never play SOE's Everquest again because of the item shop. Even if the shop mainly contains fluff items those are items that would have normally went in the game with actual content you can play in the past to obtain them. Let me explain. Everquest once put out two expansion packs per year, they have now cut down to one per year and they are lackluster compared to a six month expansion pack.
Why give the players more content to play when you can just sell them some digital pixels in a item shop? Greed. I will not support it.
Two things with this. First is that I don't really care if the MMO is fair or not. My point on doing the content is for the content's sake. If it's not fun, I won't do it and won't buy past it unless there is a reasonable expectation that it will get better later in the game. So from my perspective, there is no you and me. There's me, my time, and money if I so choose to use it. I make the assumption that you are fully capable of enjoying yourself or you wouldn't be there. With that said, I have talked at length on fairness. Mind you only because I hope that people can see that spending one currency to get ahead; time, is no different than spending another currency to get ahead; money. Both of them are things that everyone has in limited supply. Assuming that we all are trying to get to some point, it would be more fair to either limit both players to a certain amount of time/money. Now why is it not fair? Because the constant between us is that our characters have existed for a certain amount of time in the game. Say we each have subbed for two months, I will only have say 80 hours while you have 240. Next two months the gulf widens. Even though we started at the same point, you will race ahead of me because you have more currency than me. I can do each of the examples you used above and sub in money. I can claim that you can spend the same as me, it will just take you longer to get the money to spend it. See it's the same arguement. We each can claim the other can legitimately achieve the same goals in game using the others limited currency. What I can not do is convince you that my currency is better or worse than yours, since that is societal and personally based.
That seems to be the bottom line here.
The P2P supporters seem to be bothered by playing a game that isn't fair, the RMT players are not.
As for point two, I think that would only apply to EVE, where progress as long as you are subscribed to the game.
P2P games base progress on content completed, not hours played. If I stand around in teh game chatting or doing nothing, I don't gain xp.
It makes no difference if I play one hour, or 1,000 hours, I don't progress unless I complete content.
Every game that have RMT i wont play or buy simple.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
Every game that have RMT i wont play or buy simple.
Then I assume you don't play any MMOs? RMT is in every game, some legally supported by the developers, some legally/illegally run by the player base. It's there regardless of what any of us wants or thinks fair.
That seems to be the bottom line here. The P2P supporters seem to be bothered by playing a game that isn't fair, the RMT players are not. As for point two, I think that would only apply to EVE, where progress as long as you are subscribed to the game. P2P games base progress on content completed, not hours played. If I stand around in teh game chatting or doing nothing, I don't gain xp. It makes no difference if I play one hour, or 1,000 hours, I don't progress unless I complete content.
Yes, I think a common descriptor is getting close to being reached. I can handle people saying they don't want RMT (even if it's there already) as long as they also admit that P2P is just as unfair as RMT. Now we can discuss hybrids and whether or not you can make it fair as long as we have a common ground to speak from.
I did think of Eve as an innovative way to balance P2P models, and it's not too bad at doing so. Certainly you can't advance ISK and resources, but it is a game that you can advance without being in it. Certainly it's much more friendly to people with smaller time. Yet I still hear two complaints from that system: 1. People can never catch up & 2. The game takes over their lives. #1 is debateable by proponents and detractors, #2 could be that the game is good enough and not a function of game requirements.
You bring a good point about measuring time in a MMO. Time does not normally exactly equal advancement. Otherwise we would not have some people taking years to cap and others taking days, even if they both started their accounts at the same time and played the same time. While I could say that you can use that argument on RMT too, I'll go into more depth on that point.
I have yet to play any MMO that I thought my skill had any real affect on my leveling speed. Like many games, developers don't want things to be so hard that people can not progress at all. So there is little challenge in advancing. Advancement = Time in just about every MMO that I can think of. When you set your mind to doing it, it's not a matter of if you will complete it, but when you will complete it. Also, there is some skill in bypassing content and cutting corners, but the time=advancement is still pretty valid.
With that said, just beacuse you choose not to advance, doesn't make the P2P system any more fair. There is still an imbalance in the system where you have more time than I do. That you choose not to use your advantage doesn't make that advantage go away, it just makes you less efficient This is very much like the person in a RMT game that doesn't exercise their RMT options. The game is still unbalanced to dollars, but that player choose not to exercise it.
Which is why I believe all of this goes back to content. If the content is enjoyable enough, then there is little reason to call it grind. You can call it entertainment and we should both be pleased to experience as much or as little as we please. Since it's entertainment either of us are at a loss for taking shortcuts, whether that shortcut is $$, powerleveling or what not. Grind implies that you are doing something unpleasant, which is the problem with most games.
Now you've stated you like the grind, and I suppose to that I have little answer. If your idea of a good game is grind, and how you can approch the grind, I suppose that is your perogative.
The P2P supporters seem to be bothered by playing a game that isn't fair, the RMT players are not.
As for point two, I think that would only apply to EVE, where progress as long as you are subscribed to the game.
P2P games base progress on content completed, not hours played. If I stand around in teh game chatting or doing nothing, I don't gain xp.
It makes no difference if I play one hour, or 1,000 hours, I don't progress unless I complete content.
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
That seems to be the bottom line here. Some people feel RMT is not fair and others do not. Many P2P games base progress on time invested and content repeated. If I stand around in teh game chatting or doing nothing, I don't gain xp, and since I am not here to socialize or enjoy the game but to obsessively level to cap, I have to be gaining XP to feel I am not wasting my monthly fee. It makes no difference if I play one hour, or 1,000 hours, I don't progress unless I complete content because to me an MMO is solely about teh xpz, because if it wasn't then my entire argument goes out the window.
Fixed your post.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Well this all works out untill you get people like me, I work about 20 hours a week and earn a decent amount of money. So I both a have the time and the money to Invest in an online game. How will this work out when I start playing an RMT game like this. It would not be fair as I would dominate both typs of gamplay. <snip> But RMT games at its current form dose not stop people from still selling under the table. If its cheeper from a 3rd party seller, people will still buy from them. And the transition, when its already available in game is mush easier. That might lead to more people buying from a 3rd party seller if the service is available ingame. Customers are smart dont underestimate them, they will not buy if going over the River cuts the price in half. That is why I said, yes maybe some sort of Hybrid will work out, but still it dosent solve the Issue with addiction and that Real money transaction games make for a mush more brutal environment. Scams,greifing and exploits are common place in many RMT games, try one like Silkroad for example and you will see what I mean.
That's true, the time and money advantaged will have a much greater advantage than the rest of us. However, they have an advantage in both systems already. With hybrid RMT/P2P you at least make the game more fair, from a balance perspective, for significantly more people.
The answer to third party sellers is the draconian method of taking trading out of the game. Which probably makes more people leave than keeps them in. However, it does solve that problem in both P2P and RMT. It also solves twinks too... Mind you I wouldn't want to see that. If the RMT is going to succeed it needs to be priced at a point that makes sense, both in terms of not being so cheap that it makes the P2P players mad, and not being so expensive that the 3rd parties come in and undercut the market. That's why I suggest a dynamic system that the devs monitor and adjust prices as people prefer one method over the other. Figure out what % you want to advance with $$s and adjust the price until you hit there. 60/40, 70/30 free to $$ would be nice targets.
No I agree that addiction is a real issue, but both with time and $$. I have no answer for that other than to say that people with addictions need help. Scams, exploits and griefing exist in nearly every game. We could probably just say that every game will have a % of jerks. I know the worst environments I saw were P2P, but since I didn't experience everyone, and wasn't taking any sort of poll, I can't say that with any authority. Whatever systems come in place, I hope that developers can come up with innovative systems to tackle all of the above.
Originally posted by Ihmotepp That seems to be the bottom line here. The P2P supporters seem to be bothered by playing a game that isn't fair, the RMT players are not. As for point two, I think that would only apply to EVE, where progress as long as you are subscribed to the game. P2P games base progress on content completed, not hours played. If I stand around in teh game chatting or doing nothing, I don't gain xp. It makes no difference if I play one hour, or 1,000 hours, I don't progress unless I complete content.
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
That seems to be the bottom line here. Some people feel RMT is not fair and others do not. Many P2P games base progress on time invested and content repeated. If I stand around in teh game chatting or doing nothing, I don't gain xp, and since I am not here to socialize or enjoy the game but to obsessively level to cap, I have to be gaining XP to feel I am not wasting my monthly fee. It makes no difference if I play one hour, or 1,000 hours, I don't progress unless I complete content because to me an MMO is solely about teh xpz, because if it wasn't then my entire argument goes out the window.
Fixed your post.
No, you misunderstood my post, and put words in my mouth.
We are talking about measuring characters.
Characters do nto progress unless they gain xp.
I'm the worst when it comes to being an efficient player. I will take the opportunity to stand around and waste time, and chat, or run off to look at something I haven't seen in games at the drop of a hat. I'll go to some zone I can't possibly make xp in just to look at a mob I haven't seen before.
Again, this is why P2P game characters are not measured in TIME PLAYED> They are measured in Content Completed.
I like to waste time, some spend every moment in game making xp.
One hour in game for those two players is hardly equal on any level, and therefore why would you measure the character based on time in the game? I'll log in just to stand around and read the chat window. I'm logging hours, but certainly not xp.
But the CONTENT is equal. One mob equals 10 xp for both players.
Comments
That seems to be the middle ground and an area where most people agree. Games where a person with extra time has as much access to items and content as someone with extra money seem to be designed in a rahter fair and balanced manner to most. Games where content is only accessible through money, however doesn't really seem to sit well with many - including many of the people who are avid fans of item malls.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
That seems to be the middle ground and an area where most people agree. Games where a person with extra time has as much access to items and content as someone with extra money seem to be designed in a rahter fair and balanced manner to most. Games where content is only accessible through money, however doesn't really seem to sit well with many - including many of the people who are avid fans of item malls.
This is precisely the kind of RMT that I'm ok with. And if people really care about "fair", then it is the most fair at all, balancing time versus money. Paying cash buys you nothing that you couldn't earn if you had the time, it just lets some players get to the "fun" part of the game faster. For those who enjoy the grind, they can still have it.
Please note that no one here is talking about buying top level characters with maxed out stats and items, we're talking about buying a few weapons or pieces of armor, or xp pots, things like that. And please, no whining about paying real cash for items that don't exist. We're not really buying items, we're buying entertainment just like everyone else.
This is what I don't understand. Why? Why does it make any difference if you make level 5 in one day, or one week?
You will also play 8 hours. Just not in a day. You will do the SAME quests, and kill the SAME mobs, and play the SAME 8 hours as the other person, but you will do it in a week or a month, instead of a day.
Why does this feel unfair to you? Is it that you feel he got a better deal on his 14.95 per month? Or is it something else? If something else, what in the world can it be?
You're absolutely no different than him on the game. You play 8 hours, he plays 8 hours, you both do the same content. Why would you want to play on his schedule instead of yours? Are you upset that he will get to the end game in a faster number of days? If you measure the game in content, you will do the EXACT same content as him to get to the end game. Why the rush?
In the above quote, you said you measure progress by what you can do in the game, now you're measuring it by levels per day?
You make a very good point with this post. Great post!
And I pointed out it's a non issue because game time only determines when you get something not if. You act like you are losing something if you do not use money to catch up. You treat it like it is a real race and the first to the end wins or something. And no you can't turn it around and say that I can do everything you can do in the same time.
Why you ask?
Because everyone starts the game the same, everyone does not start life in the exact same circumstances. Simple as that =P
You just want to be better without playing. You do not want to put in your time. It's not that you cant, you just do not want to. Yes it may take longer but you spread out the play time. You want to take away from the ones that have a more "concentrated" play time.
Quick Pictorial example
Time goes that way =====>
12 Hours Worth of Content: [][][][][][]
You:[] [] [] [] [] []
Me :[] [] [] [] [] []
See what I am getting at? We both completed the same content in the same 12 hours. I got done before you because I did not spread out my 12 hours as much as you did. So now you want to turn around and buy time doing something like this
You:[] [] $$$$<-------- bought this obviously
Me :[] [] [] [] [] []
I have issues with that. There is no point in doing the content if you can buy your way through and my time really means nothing now.
I wouldn't complain if it went like this.
You: [] [] [] [] [] []
Me: [] [] [] [] [] []
But yet you still feel justified?
I know we will not come to an understanding but like I said in my other post, I'm only telling how I feel about it. I know everyone is not like me and that alone is reason enough to have games with this type of RMT. I do not want all games to have this so I can have my "fairness" too.
(I hope My picture comes out right lol
)
Two things with this. First is that I don't really care if the MMO is fair or not. My point on doing the content is for the content's sake. If it's not fun, I won't do it and won't buy past it unless there is a reasonable expectation that it will get better later in the game. So from my perspective, there is no you and me. There's me, my time, and money if I so choose to use it. I make the assumption that you are fully capable of enjoying yourself or you wouldn't be there.
With that said, I have talked at length on fairness. Mind you only because I hope that people can see that spending one currency to get ahead; time, is no different than spending another currency to get ahead; money. Both of them are things that everyone has in limited supply. Assuming that we all are trying to get to some point, it would be more fair to either limit both players to a certain amount of time/money.
Now why is it not fair? Because the constant between us is that our characters have existed for a certain amount of time in the game. Say we each have subbed for two months, I will only have say 80 hours while you have 240. Next two months the gulf widens. Even though we started at the same point, you will race ahead of me because you have more currency than me. I can do each of the examples you used above and sub in money.
I can claim that you can spend the same as me, it will just take you longer to get the money to spend it. See it's the same arguement. We each can claim the other can legitimately achieve the same goals in game using the others limited currency. What I can not do is convince you that my currency is better or worse than yours, since that is societal and personally based.
^---Awesomesauce.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Two things with this. First is that I don't really care if the MMO is fair or not. My point on doing the content is for the content's sake. If it's not fun, I won't do it and won't buy past it unless there is a reasonable expectation that it will get better later in the game. So from my perspective, there is no you and me. There's me, my time, and money if I so choose to use it. I make the assumption that you are fully capable of enjoying yourself or you wouldn't be there.
With that said, I have talked at length on fairness. Mind you only because I hope that people can see that spending one currency to get ahead; time, is no different than spending another currency to get ahead; money. Both of them are things that everyone has in limited supply. Assuming that we all are trying to get to some point, it would be more fair to either limit both players to a certain amount of time/money.
Now why is it not fair? Because the constant between us is that our characters have existed for a certain amount of time in the game. Say we each have subbed for two months, I will only have say 80 hours while you have 240. Next two months the gulf widens. Even though we started at the same point, you will race ahead of me because you have more currency than me. I can do each of the examples you used above and sub in money.
I can claim that you can spend the same as me, it will just take you longer to get the money to spend it. See it's the same arguement. We each can claim the other can legitimately achieve the same goals in game using the others limited currency. What I can not do is convince you that my currency is better or worse than yours, since that is societal and personally based.
This is where I think you are wrong. Does my hour equal your hour in the game? An hour will always equal an hour. So logically Time = Time. You want to argue that Time = certain amount of money. Although that is true but it is not the same for everyone. If everyone made the same amount as everyone else in the real world then I would be fine but it just does not work like that because the real world is unfair. We all have different wages and my hour may only get me $5 where yours gets you $10. Now lets say an hours worth of game content is $5. Does my game time equal your game time in terms of time in reality?
Nope, it takes me an hour to make an hours worth of game time while it only takes you half an hour to make an hours worth of game time. 1 hour of real life = 1 game hour always. That's what I'm getting at. It does not matter If i have more or not that is an absolute. It's the same for everyone there is no changing it but you cant say the same thing about money. That is what I mean by fair.
It is totally true that your and my hours in the game would be the same. Just as your and my dollars in the game would be the same. What our currency can do does not address how much of that currency we have. So we have Time=Time and Money=Money. Each of us is scarce in one of those commodities. Now if we are designing a system whose goal is to be a fair competition, we would need to have a system that balances our lack of the others currency... or use another medium altogether.
What is the magic time/money balance? It would depend on the game, and the content in that game. It would provide alternative methods for advancement without making them so attractive that those not wanting to partake end up feeling stupid for not using it. That means changing the ratio as they find too many people using one method or the other. That would be ideal by my thinking.
Now what I think you mean in the second paragraph is that I can make my time in the game 2x (or whatever ratio) as effective as your time. So your time becomes less productive than mine in the game. That is true, if I have the same time and spend more money, you will end up much further back than me. So people with time and money will obviously be the real winners in the system...
However, if we are talking about making the game fair without RMT (not my goal or desire, mine would be to make it fun and accessible), how do you account for our complete disparity of hours played? We start on the same day, and no matter what happens, I don't have a hope to compete or even play with you unless there are some very hard caps in place.
That all goes back to making the implementation of RMT worthwhile. I'll totally agree that there are some totally garbage RMT schemes out there. Some that are so egregious that it makes you cringe. That does not invalidate the model as a balancing factor in games. Nor do I think that it disproves how fair/unfair RMT is in a game.
Finally getting somewhere. Yes I do mean that my time is less productive. When it's in place it becomes just totally unfair in my eyes because of what you said. Now making the game fair without RMT is hard to answer. I cannot think of a way where Time = Game Time = Money. The money aspect makes the value of time to ambiguous. That's why I said from the very beginning that both types should exist for both types of people. Kind of a separate but equal ( can't believe I'm saying this since I'm black) setup where you have your RMT games and I have my RMT-free games. That way we can both be happy without messing with each others game... or
have the same game but some servers are RMT enabled and some are not? I'm cool with that as long as we can only transfer to that same type of server.
Well this all works out untill you get people like me, I work about 20 hours a week and earn a decent amount of money. So I both a have the time and the money to Invest in an online game. How will this work out when I start playing an RMT game like this. It would not be fair as I would dominate both typs of gamplay.
Iv tried this in IRL on diffrent typs of RMT games and the result is that I get stuff over that I can sell ( im not gona admit to doing anything illegal here but the opportunity to make a fast IRL buck have presented itself on many occasion)
I could for one make a decent amount of IRL money per month in Entropida universe, I admit to this as its legal in that game.
I do still play EvE online for free and just sell ISK for game time cards. totaly legal also.
But RMT games at its current form dose not stop people from still selling under the table. If its cheeper from a 3rd party seller, people will still buy from them. And the transition, when its already available in game is mush easier. That might lead to more people buying from a 3rd party seller if the service is available ingame. Customers are smart dont underestimate them, they will not buy if going over the River cuts the price in half.
That is why I said, yes maybe some sort of Hybrid will work out, but still it dosent solve the Issue with addiction and that Real money transaction games make for a mush more brutal environment. Scams,greifing and exploits are common place in many RMT games, try one like Silkroad for example and you will see what I mean.
It is totally true that your and my hours in the game would be the same. Just as your and my dollars in the game would be the same. What our currency can do does not address how much of that currency we have. So we have Time=Time and Money=Money. Each of us is scarce in one of those commodities. Now if we are designing a system whose goal is to be a fair competition, we would need to have a system that balances our lack of the others currency... or use another medium altogether.
What is the magic time/money balance? It would depend on the game, and the content in that game. It would provide alternative methods for advancement without making them so attractive that those not wanting to partake end up feeling stupid for not using it. That means changing the ratio as they find too many people using one method or the other. That would be ideal by my thinking.
Now what I think you mean in the second paragraph is that I can make my time in the game 2x (or whatever ratio) as effective as your time. So your time becomes less productive than mine in the game. That is true, if I have the same time and spend more money, you will end up much further back than me. So people with time and money will obviously be the real winners in the system...
However, if we are talking about making the game fair without RMT (not my goal or desire, mine would be to make it fun and accessible), how do you account for our complete disparity of hours played? We start on the same day, and no matter what happens, I don't have a hope to compete or even play with you unless there are some very hard caps in place.
That all goes back to making the implementation of RMT worthwhile. I'll totally agree that there are some totally garbage RMT schemes out there. Some that are so egregious that it makes you cringe. That does not invalidate the model as a balancing factor in games. Nor do I think that it disproves how fair/unfair RMT is in a game.
Instead of time, use content as a measure.
Use quests completed, or mobs killed.
In a P2P game, the mob gives the exact same xp to both of us, the quest gives the exact same xp to both of us.
You cannot measure progress by time, and you should not. An MMORPG is a social game, and you should stand around sometimes chatting and not doing quests or killing mobs. If I stand around for an hour chatting, or just running around looking at the scenery, I will make zero character progress, but I am still spending time, still playing the game.
However, if I kill a mob, or do a quest, I will make the exact same XP or loot (or chance of loot if random) as you will. So that is the measure you should use, content completed.
The other point would be in a F2P game, there will never be any true and exact equality because there is a mix. It is not Time = Time or Money = Money.
Characters are a mix of time and money, and each player will have a different mix.
Or answer this question. I will give you a cookie after you walk one mile. There is no time limit. You may walk the entire mile today, or you may walk a few feet of it each day and take a month to walk the mile. But everyone that walks this mile will get a cookie.
Is that fair? Or is that unfair because someone can spend all day walking and get their cookie faster than you can, taking a few steps each day?
How is that different than, I will make you level 5 when kill 500 mobs, or do 5 quests. You can do it all today, or a little bit each day, but as soon as you finish, I will make you level 5, and anyone that kills 500 mobs will make level 5.
Is that fair, or unfair because someone can kill all 500 mobs in one day, and it takes you 30 days?
That seems to be the middle ground and an area where most people agree. Games where a person with extra time has as much access to items and content as someone with extra money seem to be designed in a rahter fair and balanced manner to most. Games where content is only accessible through money, however doesn't really seem to sit well with many - including many of the people who are avid fans of item malls.
This is precisely the kind of RMT that I'm ok with. And if people really care about "fair", then it is the most fair at all, balancing time versus money. Paying cash buys you nothing that you couldn't earn if you had the time, it just lets some players get to the "fun" part of the game faster. For those who enjoy the grind, they can still have it.
Please note that no one here is talking about buying top level characters with maxed out stats and items, we're talking about buying a few weapons or pieces of armor, or xp pots, things like that. And please, no whining about paying real cash for items that don't exist. We're not really buying items, we're buying entertainment just like everyone else.
I think that's the part you don't get.
The grind is no longer fun if you can pay for it instead.
The fun in the game is destroyed for many by the RMT. You may not be one of those people, but take a look at the poll at the beginning of this thread if you don't believe me.
So you can't have your cake and eat it too. YOU can still have the grind if you want it (which you don't), but for the player that feels RMT is unfair, the fun of the grind has been destroyed by RMT. I don't see how you can dispute this, because you would have to tell another person when they are having fun or not, which you cannot do.
I think it really depends on the player. It's your own discretion. I don't do RMT but I'm not saying that I'm against it. RMT is part of the game whether we like it or not. Whatever we do we can't stop or control them. I just want to play and enjoy the game. No need for me to do RMT.
We can do something about it. If you don't like RMT you can choose to not support the game by not buying it and not playing it. If I don't like something I don't buy it. Simple. Same should go for these folks that think these games are not fair for them so they swipe their card to get pass the parts of the game. Why go to all that trouble when you could just not play it? I would much rather play a game where I find it is fun to be in the game playing it.
RMT Just say no.
Alot of games I dont support anymore due to that system.
2cent troll.
RMT is a touchy subject. It all depends on how it is used.
For instance, an example of good RMT in a game (in my OPINION), is cosmetic items. Things like hairdo's, dyes, special clothing, etc...
Where RMT goes wrong is when devs make a game with a great endgame, be it awesome PVP, raiding, or what have you... But make the 100,000,000 levels leading up to it feel like work. You really want to see that awesome part of the game, but there is no realistic way to do it, and the cash shop starts to look like that "Get Out Of Jail Free" card...
I guess what I'm saying is that RMT's should be used to enhance a game, and not be necessary to make it tolerable.
When people are buying the original game/expansion packs and paying a subscription every month they best get every item in the game including fluff items. I will never play SOE's Everquest again because of the item shop. Even if the shop mainly contains fluff items those are items that would have normally went in the game with actual content you can play in the past to obtain them. Let me explain. Everquest once put out two expansion packs per year, they have now cut down to one per year and they are lackluster compared to a six month expansion pack.
Why give the players more content to play when you can just sell them some digital pixels in a item shop? Greed. I will not support it.
That seems to be the bottom line here.
The P2P supporters seem to be bothered by playing a game that isn't fair, the RMT players are not.
As for point two, I think that would only apply to EVE, where progress as long as you are subscribed to the game.
P2P games base progress on content completed, not hours played. If I stand around in teh game chatting or doing nothing, I don't gain xp.
It makes no difference if I play one hour, or 1,000 hours, I don't progress unless I complete content.
Every game that have RMT i wont play or buy simple.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
Then I assume you don't play any MMOs? RMT is in every game, some legally supported by the developers, some legally/illegally run by the player base. It's there regardless of what any of us wants or thinks fair.
Yes, I think a common descriptor is getting close to being reached. I can handle people saying they don't want RMT (even if it's there already) as long as they also admit that P2P is just as unfair as RMT. Now we can discuss hybrids and whether or not you can make it fair as long as we have a common ground to speak from.
I did think of Eve as an innovative way to balance P2P models, and it's not too bad at doing so. Certainly you can't advance ISK and resources, but it is a game that you can advance without being in it. Certainly it's much more friendly to people with smaller time. Yet I still hear two complaints from that system: 1. People can never catch up & 2. The game takes over their lives. #1 is debateable by proponents and detractors, #2 could be that the game is good enough and not a function of game requirements.
You bring a good point about measuring time in a MMO. Time does not normally exactly equal advancement. Otherwise we would not have some people taking years to cap and others taking days, even if they both started their accounts at the same time and played the same time. While I could say that you can use that argument on RMT too, I'll go into more depth on that point.
I have yet to play any MMO that I thought my skill had any real affect on my leveling speed. Like many games, developers don't want things to be so hard that people can not progress at all. So there is little challenge in advancing. Advancement = Time in just about every MMO that I can think of. When you set your mind to doing it, it's not a matter of if you will complete it, but when you will complete it. Also, there is some skill in bypassing content and cutting corners, but the time=advancement is still pretty valid.
With that said, just beacuse you choose not to advance, doesn't make the P2P system any more fair. There is still an imbalance in the system where you have more time than I do. That you choose not to use your advantage doesn't make that advantage go away, it just makes you less efficient
This is very much like the person in a RMT game that doesn't exercise their RMT options. The game is still unbalanced to dollars, but that player choose not to exercise it.
Which is why I believe all of this goes back to content. If the content is enjoyable enough, then there is little reason to call it grind. You can call it entertainment and we should both be pleased to experience as much or as little as we please. Since it's entertainment either of us are at a loss for taking shortcuts, whether that shortcut is $$, powerleveling or what not. Grind implies that you are doing something unpleasant, which is the problem with most games.
Now you've stated you like the grind, and I suppose to that I have little answer. If your idea of a good game is grind, and how you can approch the grind, I suppose that is your perogative.
im not favor and dont apply this kind of rmt...
booh !!! ^^
Luminary: Rise of the GoonZu player
Fixed your post.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
That's true, the time and money advantaged will have a much greater advantage than the rest of us. However, they have an advantage in both systems already. With hybrid RMT/P2P you at least make the game more fair, from a balance perspective, for significantly more people.
The answer to third party sellers is the draconian method of taking trading out of the game. Which probably makes more people leave than keeps them in. However, it does solve that problem in both P2P and RMT. It also solves twinks too... Mind you I wouldn't want to see that. If the RMT is going to succeed it needs to be priced at a point that makes sense, both in terms of not being so cheap that it makes the P2P players mad, and not being so expensive that the 3rd parties come in and undercut the market. That's why I suggest a dynamic system that the devs monitor and adjust prices as people prefer one method over the other. Figure out what % you want to advance with $$s and adjust the price until you hit there. 60/40, 70/30 free to $$ would be nice targets.
No I agree that addiction is a real issue, but both with time and $$. I have no answer for that other than to say that people with addictions need help. Scams, exploits and griefing exist in nearly every game. We could probably just say that every game will have a % of jerks. I know the worst environments I saw were P2P, but since I didn't experience everyone, and wasn't taking any sort of poll, I can't say that with any authority. Whatever systems come in place, I hope that developers can come up with innovative systems to tackle all of the above.
Fixed your post.
No, you misunderstood my post, and put words in my mouth.
We are talking about measuring characters.
Characters do nto progress unless they gain xp.
I'm the worst when it comes to being an efficient player. I will take the opportunity to stand around and waste time, and chat, or run off to look at something I haven't seen in games at the drop of a hat. I'll go to some zone I can't possibly make xp in just to look at a mob I haven't seen before.
Again, this is why P2P game characters are not measured in TIME PLAYED> They are measured in Content Completed.
I like to waste time, some spend every moment in game making xp.
One hour in game for those two players is hardly equal on any level, and therefore why would you measure the character based on time in the game? I'll log in just to stand around and read the chat window. I'm logging hours, but certainly not xp.
But the CONTENT is equal. One mob equals 10 xp for both players.