How does a in game character obtain these virtual items that you swiped with your credit card? There is no explanation except for YOU coming down from the sky with a big hand handing them to them. You guys have lost what games are about. You have lost the immersion of your character being in a game once you start getting gear, xp, gold etc from an outside source.
You can't possibly be serious.
An NPC weaponsmith standing in the middle of nowhere with nothing but a table in front of him has an entire warehouse of weapons to sell you. Where he has all these stored is anyone's guess, but when you say you'll take the claymore and two full suits of plate, they magically appear in your bag as you transfer 140,000 completely weightless gold coins to him. The guy is always there, by the way, and never once does he stop to eat or sleep or even just wander off for a moment. On top of that, no matter how many times you visit him, he will always talk to you like it's the first time you've ever met. The other cool thing about the guy is that he will buy ANYTHING that you bring him - rat ears, boar balls, spider spinnerettes, troll earwax... it doesn't make a difference. The baker will buy your swords and armor, the smithy will buy your stale bread and magic reagents.
I'm not touching dragons and orcs and fireballs because that's all believable for the character and player as that is within the context of the game world.
But this is all in a world where you log out at any given place and your character magically disappears, only to reappear later and probably wonder "WTF just happened and why am I still standing in this field?" So he runs to town with his two backpacks that are currently filled with the previous 200 lbs of supplies and now two full suits of plate and a claymore, all psyched to get started on a new magical robe for his friends. When he gets to town, however, he talks to his trainer who tells him that it is impossible for him to make that type of robe because he is too low level a warrior to do so, as if the number of rats you slaughter has any bearing on your ability to finely hem delicate silks.
In a world as screwed up as that, I think that if my character woke up one day with a magic potion on his nightstand that wasn't there the night before, he probably wouldn't question it. He'd just drink it and start his day.
Are you comparing realism of in game world transactions with out of game world transactions? I am afraid you are the one who doesn't get it. In your example the NPC sold it to you, how is that hard to grasp? Your character obtained it through and in game means. Through gameplay. You swiping a credit card out of game and then the character getting the potion brings you out of the game world ... it isn't hard to grasp. You are the one that doesn't care for immersion in game as long as you have that shiny sword. Doesn't matter you to you that your character didn't get it in game does it? You miss the point of rpgs.
You are the one that doesn't care for immersion in game as long as you have that shiny sword. Doesn't matter you to you that your character didn't get it in game does it? You miss the point of rpgs.
My characters buy their gear from a shop. The last thing I bought was a cap with a flag on it. It was bought in game through the black market in Combat Arms. The item before that was a pilot's license extension (game time) purchased right on the regional trade market ingame in EVE. The item before that was a straw hat and my character picked it up in the cash item window when trading at an NPC in Florensia.
Qombi, have you even played a F2P MMO?
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
For example, is it fair in a hockey game if one goalie is allowed to wear oversized pads? No, it's not. Why not? Because his or her team will have an advantage over the opposing team. Their opponents are less likely to score. It's not fair because it's not a level playing field. How much fun do you think it would be for the goalie and team with the regular sized pads? Probably not nearly as fun as it would be for the team with the advantage. How does this relate to RMT? In some games, they'll sell oversized pads (performance enhancing loot or buffs) through their item shop. If you pay the extra cash, you get an advantage. It's no longer a level playing field. Oh you can level it up if you want, but then you have to pay more money. Now the developer can toy with people and bleed them dry in a virtual arms race. Is that fun? Maybe for the developer. It's less likely to be fun for the gamers who have fallen behind on the virtual loot, or for all of the gamers sucked into the arms race when they inevitably get the Visa bill.
Sure, buying performance items creates imbalance, we don't all have the same amount of money to spend. However, if the other hockey team is allowed to play an extra 15 minutes after the first, the game is no less fair. Sure you can play hard for the same three periods, but no matter what you do, they get the extra 15 minutes. How fair is that?
In an MMO, if you have only put in 2 hours of gameplay, there are always going to be others who have put in 2 hours of gameplay. You will therefore be on on even playing field with those players. These players also tend to have access to common zones.
If you put in 20 hours, you'll be on a level playing field with people who put in 20 hours. Maybe they put in that much time in a week, whereas it takes you a month to play 20 hours. That's fine, you're still on a level playing field, and still playing in the same game zones.
Also, you've both enjoyed 20 hours of entertaining gameplay. So, your character development is part of the entertainment you're paying for.
Now, let's introduce performance enhancing RMT. You've played 20 hours, and so has someone else. You should be on an equal footing, but he buys an RMT item that gives him a combat advantage. He now owns you because he purchased an advantage from an online store. He kicks your butt at PvP and he's more useful to a team than you are in PvE. Now things are out of whack. Now, if you want to be competitive or remain useful, you have to purchase the same thing from the online store; or you enter into what amounts to an arms race, where the person with the highest visa limit now has the most badass avatar in the game.
None of this character development is connected with entertaining gameplay, and no amount of time you put into the game will enable you to stay competitive if everyone but you is going to the online item shop to buy instant uberness. Companies can then of course exploit this to maneuver people into spending more on RMT than they ever would on a monthly subscription.
In fact, one MMO company CEO favoured switching to RMT for exactly this reason. They get more cash, you get less entertainment value. I just can't get behind that.
Let's look at an example of pure greed when item shops enter the picture. Sony's Everquest does not have rested xp, instead in Everquest you have to PAY more money for xp potions to speed up your leveling. Why did they not add rested xp as a feature in their game? Item shop. Once a greedy company adds an item shop then the features and content you would have gotten in game to entertain or fix problems with the game will be lessened. Why add rest xp to the game when you can charge 9.99 for an exp potion?
Well I'll agree with you that Sony has done a bad job with Everquest, and a terrible job with Star Wars. However, that does not mean that every implementation of RMT has to be bad. I think that Guild Wars and City of Heroes have done a pretty good job. Just because a publisher or a developer makes a bad job of it does not mean that everyone will do it.
People that are for RMT, let's address these issues right here: Let's look at an example of pure greed when item shops enter the picture. Sony's Everquest does not have rested xp, instead in Everquest you have to PAY more money for xp potions to speed up your leveling. Why did they not add rested xp as a feature in their game? Item shop. Once a greedy company adds an item shop then the features and content you would have gotten in game to entertain or fix problems with the game will be lessened. Why add rest xp to the game when you can charge 9.99 for an exp potion? Also YOU swiping a credit card to obtain a potion is not your character doing something to obtain the potion. How did your character get that potion? It ruins game immersion as well.
The rested XP system of P2P games without item shops is a great example of how in P2P games once an item shop goes in the subcription paying customer gets less for their money thereafter. I will not support those games, that is pure greed. They lose my subscription. If there are complete F2P games out there that start with an item shop, fine. I can avoid them from the start. My point is F2P with RMT and P2P without should stay seperate. Combining the two is pure greed and should not be supported, unless you want more developers to try to take away more of your content in the future you would normally get for your box prices and subcription fees.
I don't like item shops. I don't play games with item shops.
But what the heck is the "greed" thing about? A company has only one objective, goal, or duty, to make as much money as possible without breaking the law.
EVERY company does that. They are all "greedy" or else they are not companies, they are called Charities. If a company fails to make as much money as it can within the law, then the stock holders (if it's public) will tell the Board of Directors to fire the President and the rest of management, and hire some people that WILL make as much money as possible.
Adding an item shop is about profit not "greed". MMORPGs are not Charities. At least none I know of. If you open an item shop, you will make money from teh shop, and you will lose some monthly subs because some people dont' like item shop games.
It's a simple mathematical calculation that has nothing to do with "greed". Either you will make more money with the item shop, even though you lose some customers, or you will make less money with the item shop because of the customers you lose.
You do the math, you do whichever one makes the most money. Otherwise you are either a charity, you will be fired, or you will go out of business.
This is the kind of thinking behind the problems with companies like AIG. Companies exist to make money, yes. However, they do not exist only to make money. They exist to make money by providing valuable goods and services to consumers.
Making money, when not tied to a commitment to customer satisfaction and quality goods and services, is very short-sighted. It tends to lead to scandal and implosion. You can find example after example that proves this point. Cutting corners on safety to cars, cutting back on inspections at meat packing plants, selling financial products to consumers with hidden costs, making high risk investments with other people's money etc. etc.. All of these things were done in the name of making money, solely. No consideration was given to customer satisfaction or long-term consequences.
It's a popular philosophy in a society that is currently collapsing in on itself because of wrecklessness and greed. If you don't believe me, I think President Obama just said the exact same thing recently; along with economists from here to Asia.
Originally posted by ArcAngel3 In an MMO, if you have only put in 2 hours of gameplay, there are always going to be others who have put in 2 hours of gameplay. You will therefore be on on even playing field with those players. These players also tend to have access to common zones. If you put in 20 hours, you'll be on a level playing field with people who put in 20 hours. Maybe they put in that much time in a week, whereas it takes you a month to play 20 hours. That's fine, you're still on a level playing field, and still playing in the same game zones. Also, you've both enjoyed 20 hours of entertaining gameplay. So, your character development is part of the entertainment you're paying for. Now, let's introduce performance enhancing RMT. You've played 20 hours, and so has someone else. You should be on an equal footing, but he buys an RMT item that gives him a combat advantage. He now owns you because he purchased an advantage from an online store. He kicks your butt at PvP and he's more useful to a team than you are in PvE. Now things are out of whack. Now, if you want to be competitive or remain useful, you have to purchase the same thing from the online store; or you enter into what amounts to an arms race, where the person with the highest visa limit now has the most badass avatar in the game. None of this character development is connected with entertaining gameplay, and no amount of time you put into the game will enable you to stay competitive if everyone but you is going to the online item shop to buy instant uberness. Companies can then of course exploit this to maneuver people into spending more on RMT than they ever would on a monthly subscription. In fact, one MMO company CEO favoured switching to RMT for exactly this reason. They get more cash, you get less entertainment value. I just can't get behind that.
I can understand, and even empathize with that point of view. However, let's try that 20 hour player again.
We both have 20 hours in the game, we deul, it's fun. Forget that I don't believe that balance would exist between us even then (class balance, luck, drops, twinking, PLing, etc.). We have a reasonable deul where we appear balanced. That's great, I friend you so we can do it again.
You can put in 20 hours a week, I can put in 5. We meet next week and you are a 40 hour character and I am a 25 hour character. Yes, I can work for another three weeks to catch your 40, but then you're a 100 hour character. So even if I did buy the concept that MMOs are fair in any sense of the word (and I don't). You are telling me that I can never play with the same people in a majority of games. I have no mechanism to catch you because I am poor; time poor.
As for having to buy something to keep up. Well you're already out pacing me anyway. I can't keep up with you. However, as long as the game gives us different avenues that are reasonable and balanced, then we each can achieve our "badass avatars" and remain relevant to the game.
I'll contend that time is no less fair than money. I'll also agree that many RMT schemes are poor. That doesn't mean that money is any less or more fair than time. It's on par.
I will ask you the same question that I asked others, what about those that twink, PL, or otherwise accelerate their game play in a manner that's not consistent with the intent of the game? Doesn't that get someone to be the most "badass avatar" without any effort? Why is that more palatable than RMT? Both cases are skipping content you had to do and gaining things at a rate far above the time they put into the game.
I can understand, and even empathize with that point of view. However, let's try that 20 hour player again. We both have 20 hours in the game, we deul, it's fun. Forget that I don't believe that balance would exist between us even then (class balance, luck, drops, twinking, PLing, etc.). We have a reasonable deul where we appear balanced. That's great, I friend you so we can do it again. You can put in 20 hours a week, I can put in 5. We meet next week and you are a 40 hour character and I am a 25 hour character. Yes, I can work for another three weeks to catch your 40, but then you're a 100 hour character. So even if I did buy the concept that MMOs are fair in any sense of the word (and I don't). You are telling me that I can never play with the same people in a majority of games. I have no mechanism to catch you because I am poor; time poor. As for having to buy something to keep up. Well you're already out pacing me anyway. I can't keep up with you. However, as long as the game gives us different avenues that are reasonable and balanced, then we each can achieve our "badass avatars" and remain relevant to the game. I'll contend that time is no less fair than money. I'll also agree that many RMT schemes are poor. That doesn't mean that money is any less or more fair than time. It's on par. I will ask you the same question that I asked others, what about those that twink, PL, or otherwise accelerate their game play in a manner that's not consistent with the intent of the game? Doesn't that get someone to be the most "badass avatar" without any effort? Why is that more palatable than RMT? Both cases are skipping content you had to do and gaining things at a rate far above the time they put into the game.
I still do not think money is the way though. I just cannot see a way where money can be used to catch up and it always be fair for everyone. Like said earlier in this thread, someone with time and money trumps all.
Concerning the power-leveling, twinking, and what not, I hate it as much as you. I feel that those are exploits and should not happen. Some will argue I can do the same thing in the game but why would I do something that goes against my perspective of "the spirit of the game"? Just my opinion some will agree and disagree but it won't change my mind lol.
Anyhow, maybe if games use the exp boost from "resting" like WoW does but more extreme would solve some of the problem. It does unnerve me a little with the notion of a more extreme version of the rested exp boost but with it in place I cannot make the same argument as I did concerning money. The problem with money was the fact that not everyone makes the same amount per hour therefore some peoples time in reality is more productive than others that is then directly translated to the game. But with rested time, the the increase of the duration of the buff is constant for everyone therefore everyone's down time is equally productive no matter what. For this to really work though only 1 character can get the boost at a time. Also you can only play the character that has the rest boost set to it. So in essence you set a "main" character and the others become inactive and are literally frozen in time.
Now I cannot say that if you just played you get so much content done because it's the same for everyone because now you can make the exact same argument using your commodity, rest time.
Then you can proceed to tell me that if I had a life I would get the awesome exp buff too.
I still do not think money is the way though. I just cannot see a way where money can be used to catch up and it always be fair for everyone.
Can any of you who feel it is unfair present an example using an existing F2P game? Age of Armor and War Rock excluded because those two are simply bad design. Using those as examples of why all RMT is bad is like using UO 1998 as an example of why all housing is bad.
Qombi's made it very clear he has no familiarity at all with the actual mechanics of any of this and I get the feeling that a lot of the anti-RMT stuff is based on assumptions and regurgitation of misinformation.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
People that are for RMT, let's address these issues right here: Let's look at an example of pure greed when item shops enter the picture. Sony's Everquest does not have rested xp, instead in Everquest you have to PAY more money for xp potions to speed up your leveling. Why did they not add rested xp as a feature in their game? Item shop. Once a greedy company adds an item shop then the features and content you would have gotten in game to entertain or fix problems with the game will be lessened. Why add rest xp to the game when you can charge 9.99 for an exp potion? Also YOU swiping a credit card to obtain a potion is not your character doing something to obtain the potion. How did your character get that potion? It ruins game immersion as well.
The rested XP system of P2P games without item shops is a great example of how in P2P games once an item shop goes in the subcription paying customer gets less for their money thereafter. I will not support those games, that is pure greed. They lose my subscription. If there are complete F2P games out there that start with an item shop, fine. I can avoid them from the start. My point is F2P with RMT and P2P without should stay seperate. Combining the two is pure greed and should not be supported, unless you want more developers to try to take away more of your content in the future you would normally get for your box prices and subcription fees.
I don't like item shops. I don't play games with item shops.
But what the heck is the "greed" thing about? A company has only one objective, goal, or duty, to make as much money as possible without breaking the law.
EVERY company does that. They are all "greedy" or else they are not companies, they are called Charities. If a company fails to make as much money as it can within the law, then the stock holders (if it's public) will tell the Board of Directors to fire the President and the rest of management, and hire some people that WILL make as much money as possible.
Adding an item shop is about profit not "greed". MMORPGs are not Charities. At least none I know of. If you open an item shop, you will make money from teh shop, and you will lose some monthly subs because some people dont' like item shop games.
It's a simple mathematical calculation that has nothing to do with "greed". Either you will make more money with the item shop, even though you lose some customers, or you will make less money with the item shop because of the customers you lose.
You do the math, you do whichever one makes the most money. Otherwise you are either a charity, you will be fired, or you will go out of business.
This is the kind of thinking behind the problems with companies like AIG. Companies exist to make money, yes. However, they do not exist only to make money. They exist to make money by providing valuable goods and services to consumers.
Making money, when not tied to a commitment to customer satisfaction and quality goods and services, is very short-sighted. It tends to lead to scandal and implosion. You can find example after example that proves this point. Cutting corners on safety to cars, cutting back on inspections at meat packing plants, selling financial products to consumers with hidden costs, making high risk investments with other people's money etc. etc.. All of these things were done in the name of making money, solely. No consideration was given to customer satisfaction or long-term consequences.
It's a popular philosophy in a society that is currently collapsing in on itself because of wrecklessness and greed. If you don't believe me, I think President Obama just said the exact same thing recently; along with economists from here to Asia.
I don't want to drag the thread off topic, but you just agreed with me.
I stated the job of the company, it's one and only job, the reason for existence, is to make as much money as possible within the law.
You just said providing quality goods and services and customer satisfaction will make you more money in the long run. Which is why a company would do that, to make MORE money.
Generally, you make more money with a good product and customer satisfaction than a crappy product and pissed off customers. And that's because of something called competition.
Bad companies that don't make a good product, go out of business. Good companies that make a good product stay in business, and make more and more money. So how is your point adverse to mine?
If companies dont' exist ONLY to make money, then they are callled Charities. Making a good product isn't done from kindness of the company, it's just good business and makes more money.
You can put in 20 hours a week, I can put in 5. We meet next week and you are a 40 hour character and I am a 25 hour character. Yes, I can work for another three weeks to catch your 40, but then you're a 100 hour character.
Then you need to put in more time or he needs to put in less. The fact that you cant put in as much time as him doesnt make the game unfair. In the same way that it is not unfair in a marathon that some runners had more time to train than others.
If you put in the same time as him, you can make the same progress. Thats fair.
As for having to buy something to keep up. Well you're already out pacing me anyway. I can't keep up with you.
What about the guy who can only put in an hour? You're outpacing him by a factor of five, right?
I dont see how RMT would solve that "problem". Its the exact same thing, except with money instead of time. How does that make anything more fair?
Time is an objective measure. Money is not. Thats why the two are not analogous.
I will ask you the same question that I asked others, what about those that twink, PL, or otherwise accelerate their game play in a manner that's not consistent with the intent of the game? Doesn't that get someone to be the most "badass avatar" without any effort?
Yes. Thats why I oppose twinking and powerlevelling as well. But that is a separate issue from RMT.
You can put in 20 hours a week, I can put in 5. We meet next week and you are a 40 hour character and I am a 25 hour character. Yes, I can work for another three weeks to catch your 40, but then you're a 100 hour character. Then you need to put in more time or he needs to put in less. The fact that you cant put in as much time as him doesnt make the game unfair. In the same way that it is not unfair in a marathon that some runners had more time to train than others. If you put in the same time as him, you can make the same progress. Thats fair.
As for having to buy something to keep up. Well you're already out pacing me anyway. I can't keep up with you. What about the guy who can only put in an hour? You're outpacing him by a factor of five, right? I dont see how RMT would solve that "problem". Its the exact same thing, except with money instead of time. How does that make anything more fair? Time is an objective measure. Money is not. Thats why the two are not analogous.
I will ask you the same question that I asked others, what about those that twink, PL, or otherwise accelerate their game play in a manner that's not consistent with the intent of the game? Doesn't that get someone to be the most "badass avatar" without any effort? Yes. Thats why I oppose twinking and powerlevelling as well. But that is a separate issue from RMT.
Why is that more palatable than RMT? Who says it is? But the thread is about RMT.
But what about your marathon runner's shoes? The guy who can afford the expensive shoes has an unfair advantage over the poor runners. That's unfair! Stop all marathons! /cry We must create fairness!
People that are for RMT, let's address these issues right here: Let's look at an example of pure greed when item shops enter the picture. Sony's Everquest does not have rested xp, instead in Everquest you have to PAY more money for xp potions to speed up your leveling. Why did they not add rested xp as a feature in their game? Item shop. Once a greedy company adds an item shop then the features and content you would have gotten in game to entertain or fix problems with the game will be lessened. Why add rest xp to the game when you can charge 9.99 for an exp potion? Also YOU swiping a credit card to obtain a potion is not your character doing something to obtain the potion. How did your character get that potion? It ruins game immersion as well.
The rested XP system of P2P games without item shops is a great example of how in P2P games once an item shop goes in the subcription paying customer gets less for their money thereafter. I will not support those games, that is pure greed. They lose my subscription. If there are complete F2P games out there that start with an item shop, fine. I can avoid them from the start. My point is F2P with RMT and P2P without should stay seperate. Combining the two is pure greed and should not be supported, unless you want more developers to try to take away more of your content in the future you would normally get for your box prices and subcription fees.
I don't like item shops. I don't play games with item shops.
But what the heck is the "greed" thing about? A company has only one objective, goal, or duty, to make as much money as possible without breaking the law.
EVERY company does that. They are all "greedy" or else they are not companies, they are called Charities. If a company fails to make as much money as it can within the law, then the stock holders (if it's public) will tell the Board of Directors to fire the President and the rest of management, and hire some people that WILL make as much money as possible.
Adding an item shop is about profit not "greed". MMORPGs are not Charities. At least none I know of. If you open an item shop, you will make money from teh shop, and you will lose some monthly subs because some people dont' like item shop games.
It's a simple mathematical calculation that has nothing to do with "greed". Either you will make more money with the item shop, even though you lose some customers, or you will make less money with the item shop because of the customers you lose.
You do the math, you do whichever one makes the most money. Otherwise you are either a charity, you will be fired, or you will go out of business.
This is the kind of thinking behind the problems with companies like AIG. Companies exist to make money, yes. However, they do not exist only to make money. They exist to make money by providing valuable goods and services to consumers.
Making money, when not tied to a commitment to customer satisfaction and quality goods and services, is very short-sighted. It tends to lead to scandal and implosion. You can find example after example that proves this point. Cutting corners on safety to cars, cutting back on inspections at meat packing plants, selling financial products to consumers with hidden costs, making high risk investments with other people's money etc. etc.. All of these things were done in the name of making money, solely. No consideration was given to customer satisfaction or long-term consequences.
It's a popular philosophy in a society that is currently collapsing in on itself because of wrecklessness and greed. If you don't believe me, I think President Obama just said the exact same thing recently; along with economists from here to Asia.
I don't want to drag the thread off topic, but you just agreed with me.
I stated the job of the company, it's one and only job, the reason for existence, is to make as much money as possible within the law.
You just said providing quality goods and services and customer satisfaction will make you more money in the long run. Which is why a company would do that, to make MORE money.
Generally, you make more money with a good product and customer satisfaction than a crappy product and pissed off customers. And that's because of something called competition.
Bad companies that don't make a good product, go out of business. Good companies that make a good product stay in business, and make more and more money. So how is your point adverse to mine?
If companies dont' exist ONLY to make money, then they are callled Charities. Making a good product isn't done from kindness of the company, it's just good business and makes more money.
I think we approach this with a different mental paradigm. We may have to respectfully agree to disagree on this, and that's fine with me btw.
What I'm saying is that if your corporate philosophy puts cash alone at the top of the totem pole, you will inevitably cut corners or do things that disadvantage your customers. A successful corporate philosophy in my view puts cash and customer satisfaction on par with each other, and holds them as objectives in and of themselves.
In your philosophy, customer satisfaction appears to be a means to an end. In mine it is an objective in and of itself. Another objective in and of itself would be environmental responsibility. If these things are subordinate to profit, corners will be cut, mistakes will be made, short-term gain will lead to long-term pain.
There's a very subtle line between my thinking and yours. I think to many, its imperceptible.
But what about your marathon runner's shoes? It is irrelevant, since the color has no significant impact on the outcome of the race.
The guy who can afford the expensive shoes has an unfair advantage over the poor runners. I disagree that the advantage is unfair. Shoe type provides a trivial advantage at best.
Stop all marathons! /cry We must create fairness! The people running them dont seem to have a problem with the current rules. That tells you what the majority opinion is.
Yes, just as the majority opinion on RMT is that it's just fine and dandy. We're talking about an actual majority, based on worldwide users, not the opinions of the mmorpg.com outcasts.
The guy with the $10.00 falling apart shoes is running the race for his own reasons, and does not feel the need to 'compete' with the guy who has the $200.00 shoes. If he did, the problem would be in his own head, and something he should deal with internally, instead of whining and crying.
People that are for RMT, let's address these issues right here: Let's look at an example of pure greed when item shops enter the picture. Sony's Everquest does not have rested xp, instead in Everquest you have to PAY more money for xp potions to speed up your leveling. Why did they not add rested xp as a feature in their game? Item shop. Once a greedy company adds an item shop then the features and content you would have gotten in game to entertain or fix problems with the game will be lessened. Why add rest xp to the game when you can charge 9.99 for an exp potion? Also YOU swiping a credit card to obtain a potion is not your character doing something to obtain the potion. How did your character get that potion? It ruins game immersion as well.
The rested XP system of P2P games without item shops is a great example of how in P2P games once an item shop goes in the subcription paying customer gets less for their money thereafter. I will not support those games, that is pure greed. They lose my subscription. If there are complete F2P games out there that start with an item shop, fine. I can avoid them from the start. My point is F2P with RMT and P2P without should stay seperate. Combining the two is pure greed and should not be supported, unless you want more developers to try to take away more of your content in the future you would normally get for your box prices and subcription fees.
I don't like item shops. I don't play games with item shops.
But what the heck is the "greed" thing about? A company has only one objective, goal, or duty, to make as much money as possible without breaking the law.
EVERY company does that. They are all "greedy" or else they are not companies, they are called Charities. If a company fails to make as much money as it can within the law, then the stock holders (if it's public) will tell the Board of Directors to fire the President and the rest of management, and hire some people that WILL make as much money as possible.
Adding an item shop is about profit not "greed". MMORPGs are not Charities. At least none I know of. If you open an item shop, you will make money from teh shop, and you will lose some monthly subs because some people dont' like item shop games.
It's a simple mathematical calculation that has nothing to do with "greed". Either you will make more money with the item shop, even though you lose some customers, or you will make less money with the item shop because of the customers you lose.
You do the math, you do whichever one makes the most money. Otherwise you are either a charity, you will be fired, or you will go out of business.
This is the kind of thinking behind the problems with companies like AIG. Companies exist to make money, yes. However, they do not exist only to make money. They exist to make money by providing valuable goods and services to consumers.
Making money, when not tied to a commitment to customer satisfaction and quality goods and services, is very short-sighted. It tends to lead to scandal and implosion. You can find example after example that proves this point. Cutting corners on safety to cars, cutting back on inspections at meat packing plants, selling financial products to consumers with hidden costs, making high risk investments with other people's money etc. etc.. All of these things were done in the name of making money, solely. No consideration was given to customer satisfaction or long-term consequences.
It's a popular philosophy in a society that is currently collapsing in on itself because of wrecklessness and greed. If you don't believe me, I think President Obama just said the exact same thing recently; along with economists from here to Asia.
I don't want to drag the thread off topic, but you just agreed with me.
I stated the job of the company, it's one and only job, the reason for existence, is to make as much money as possible within the law.
You just said providing quality goods and services and customer satisfaction will make you more money in the long run. Which is why a company would do that, to make MORE money.
Generally, you make more money with a good product and customer satisfaction than a crappy product and pissed off customers. And that's because of something called competition.
Bad companies that don't make a good product, go out of business. Good companies that make a good product stay in business, and make more and more money. So how is your point adverse to mine?
If companies dont' exist ONLY to make money, then they are callled Charities. Making a good product isn't done from kindness of the company, it's just good business and makes more money.
I think we approach this with a different mental paradigm. We may have to respectfully agree to disagree on this, and that's fine with me btw.
What I'm saying is that if your corporate philosophy puts cash alone at the top of the totem pole, you will inevitably cut corners or do things that disadvantage your customers. A successful corporate philosophy in my view puts cash and customer satisfaction on par with each other, and holds them as objectives in and of themselves.
In your philosophy, customer satisfaction appears to be a means to an end. In mine it is an objective in and of itself. Another objective in and of itself would be environmental responsibility. If these things are subordinate to profit, corners will be cut, mistakes will be made, short-term gain will lead to long-term pain.
There's a very subtle line between my thinking and yours. I think to many, its imperceptible.
It's not HIS corporate philosophy. It's reality. As much as I hate agreeing with this guy, and trust me it's painful, he's completely correct. Corporations exist for one reason: Money. They satisfy customers only as long as it makes them profit. If it's more profitable to let a number of customers be upset, then that's what they'll do. You have a lovely little 'philosophy", and it's a great idea, but it's not reality, it's not the way things are done.
He was not telling you how things SHOULD be, he was simply pointing out the way things ARE.
Originally posted by ArcAngel3 In an MMO, if you have only put in 2 hours of gameplay, there are always going to be others who have put in 2 hours of gameplay. You will therefore be on on even playing field with those players. These players also tend to have access to common zones. If you put in 20 hours, you'll be on a level playing field with people who put in 20 hours. Maybe they put in that much time in a week, whereas it takes you a month to play 20 hours. That's fine, you're still on a level playing field, and still playing in the same game zones. Also, you've both enjoyed 20 hours of entertaining gameplay. So, your character development is part of the entertainment you're paying for. Now, let's introduce performance enhancing RMT. You've played 20 hours, and so has someone else. You should be on an equal footing, but he buys an RMT item that gives him a combat advantage. He now owns you because he purchased an advantage from an online store. He kicks your butt at PvP and he's more useful to a team than you are in PvE. Now things are out of whack. Now, if you want to be competitive or remain useful, you have to purchase the same thing from the online store; or you enter into what amounts to an arms race, where the person with the highest visa limit now has the most badass avatar in the game. None of this character development is connected with entertaining gameplay, and no amount of time you put into the game will enable you to stay competitive if everyone but you is going to the online item shop to buy instant uberness. Companies can then of course exploit this to maneuver people into spending more on RMT than they ever would on a monthly subscription. In fact, one MMO company CEO favoured switching to RMT for exactly this reason. They get more cash, you get less entertainment value. I just can't get behind that.
I can understand, and even empathize with that point of view. However, let's try that 20 hour player again.
We both have 20 hours in the game, we deul, it's fun. Forget that I don't believe that balance would exist between us even then (class balance, luck, drops, twinking, PLing, etc.). We have a reasonable deul where we appear balanced. That's great, I friend you so we can do it again.
You can put in 20 hours a week, I can put in 5. We meet next week and you are a 40 hour character and I am a 25 hour character. Yes, I can work for another three weeks to catch your 40, but then you're a 100 hour character. So even if I did buy the concept that MMOs are fair in any sense of the word (and I don't). You are telling me that I can never play with the same people in a majority of games. I have no mechanism to catch you because I am poor; time poor.
As for having to buy something to keep up. Well you're already out pacing me anyway. I can't keep up with you. However, as long as the game gives us different avenues that are reasonable and balanced, then we each can achieve our "badass avatars" and remain relevant to the game.
I'll contend that time is no less fair than money. I'll also agree that many RMT schemes are poor. That doesn't mean that money is any less or more fair than time. It's on par.
I will ask you the same question that I asked others, what about those that twink, PL, or otherwise accelerate their game play in a manner that's not consistent with the intent of the game? Doesn't that get someone to be the most "badass avatar" without any effort? Why is that more palatable than RMT? Both cases are skipping content you had to do and gaining things at a rate far above the time they put into the game.
Okay, let's go with the 20 hour scenario again. (I enjoy discussing this with you btw ^_^). My 20 hour guy will be in the same ball park with other 20 hour people. Mind you, I may have beat quests that someone else struggles with and this may be due to some skill related issues. I think that's good btw. If I can beat this uberboss and get his magic sword, than I earned an edge via skill. The other guy could practice or get help to beat the uber boss, and then we're back on par again. I also think that's good.
So, what I'm saying is that people playing the same amount of time are reasonable competitive with each other. This is unbalanced (intentionally) when a company sells me the magic sword at an item shop for 5 bucks. Now, other people need to hit the item shop to be on par. This is especially true if the latest gear is only available via RMT, or if it's so hard to get in game that people will feel compelled to hit the item shop to save themselves the hassle.This opens incredible opportunities for financial exploitation on the part of the game developer. That's one main issue for me as a customer.
I suppose the other issue, which is related, is that I don't want to pay for a competitive advantage. I want to pay for entertainment. Buying performance enhancing gear (and possibly being manipulated into doing so) doesn't give me any gameplay entertainment.
Now, the scenario you present is very specific. You may want to play alongside others who have progressed further than you. Even that scenario has been addressed without resorting to performance enhancing RMT items. In City of Heroes, they have the side-kick system. It's wonderful. If I'm a level 50 player (top tier) and I want to bring a friend into a level 50 zone, we meet at my batcave (hero-base) and I click on him to make him my side-kick. Voila, now we can play together. He still gets xp that is on par with his actual level too.
City of Heroes also lets me drop to his level if I want. It's called exemplaring. Then I can do content in my friend's zones if I want. If I do this, I get cash (ingame) rewards. It's a nice way to boost the bank account. For PvP, I can be dropped to my friend's level to play in an entry level PvP zone also. We can also duel in arenas that allow us to set the level anywhere we choose.
The options in City of Heroes ensure that people are paying for entertainment, not a competitive advantage. They also address the desire to want to play with or against one's friends. Some things I like about CoH, others I don't. I think they got this one right though.
This is unbalanced (intentionally) when a company sells me the magic sword at an item shop for 5 bucks. Now, other people need to hit the item shop to be on par. This opens incredible opportunities for financial exploitation on the part of the game developer.
Can you give examples of the F2P MMOs where a player can just buy the high end or boss drop gear?
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Yes, just as the majority opinion on RMT is that it's just fine and dandy.
Not according to the poll, or any of the mainstream MMOs out right now. Trivial RMT is the only RMT that appears to be acceptable...just like choosing your own shoes seems to be acceptable to most marathon runners.
We're talking about an actual majority, based on worldwide users
Who is "we" paleface? heh heh
From what I can see, everyone on here is talking about MMOs in the US and maybe europe. No one is arguing that Asians dont like RMT.
The guy with the $10.00 falling apart shoes is running the race for his own reasons, and does not feel the need to 'compete' with the guy who has the $200.00 shoes.
Then why is he participating in a race with the guy? Why wouldnt he just run on his own?
City of Heroes also lets me drop to his level if I want. It's called exemplaring. Then I can do content in my friend's zones if I want. For PvP, I can be dropped to my friends level to play in an entry level PvP zone also. We can also duel in arenas that allow us to set the level anywhere we choose.
That is a good response to the people claiming time is unfair because some people have more time than others. The system in CoH resolves this without polluting the game world with RMT.
Yes, just as the majority opinion on RMT is that it's just fine and dandy. Not according to the poll, or any of the mainstream MMOs out right now. Trivial RMT is the only RMT that appears to be acceptable...just like choosing your own shoes seems to be acceptable to most marathon runners.
We're talking about an actual majority, based on worldwide users Who is "we" paleface? heh heh From what I can see, everyone on here is talking about MMOs in the US and maybe europe. No one is arguing that Asians dont like RMT.
The guy with the $10.00 falling apart shoes is running the race for his own reasons, and does not feel the need to 'compete' with the guy who has the $200.00 shoes. Then why is he participating in a race with the guy? Why wouldnt he just run on his own?
He participates because he wants to challenge himself. And in a way that my lazy ass will never understand, he actually enjoys it. Most people don't enter a marathon with the delusion that they are going to 'win'. When was the last time you 'won' an MMO?
I still do not think money is the way though. I just cannot see a way where money can be used to catch up and it always be fair for everyone. Like said earlier in this thread, someone with time and money trumps all. Concerning the power-leveling, twinking, and what not, I hate it as much as you. I feel that those are exploits and should not happen. Some will argue I can do the same thing in the game but why would I do something that goes against my perspective of "the spirit of the game"? Just my opinion some will agree and disagree but it won't change my mind lol. Anyhow, maybe if games use the exp boost from "resting" like WoW does but more extreme would solve some of the problem. It does unnerve me a little with the notion of a more extreme version of the rested exp boost but with it in place I cannot make the same argument as I did concerning money. The problem with money was the fact that not everyone makes the same amount per hour therefore some peoples time in reality is more productive than others that is then directly translated to the game. But with rested time, the the increase of the duration of the buff is constant for everyone therefore everyone's down time is equally productive no matter what. For this to really work though only 1 character can get the boost at a time. Also you can only play the character that has the rest boost set to it. So in essence you set a "main" character and the others become inactive and are literally frozen in time. Now I cannot say that if you just played you get so much content done because it's the same for everyone because now you can make the exact same argument using your commodity, rest time. Then you can proceed to tell me that if I had a life I would get the awesome exp buff too.
Now I would never do that... I'd likely tell you to use those extra hours to make more money so you can keep pace
While I'm joking, and would never want people to feel they have to go work more to enjoy their entertainment, it is a pretty close analogy to people telling those of us without time that we could play more, or we'll catch up eventually. That's why if you introduce RMT into the equation, it should be in a way that doesn't invalidate the time of people who are willing to go it the long way.
I used my own example of wanting to skip the first 20 levels of CoX. I played there for 3.5 years with 2 accounts, and loved the game. However, after your 30th character, you really don't need those intro levels. So a typical 1-20 run takes about 5-10 hours in that game. Charge $10-20 dollars for it. It's enough money that most people won't do it and those that do won't feel like they have been cheated of their time. If you find that everyone is buying their way out of 1-20, you raise the rate... and probably look at introducing more interesting content into that level band.
When you have a nice balance of people doing the long way and RMTing out, then you are about where you should be and you can look at other areas of your game.
As for PLing, twinking, and the like, I don't really mind them all that much other than the consant din of pl requests that seem to permeate through the game. I don't really do it myself (with the 1-20 boost in CoH that I gave my own characters) but then I don't really care all that much what other people are doing in the game. Which is also proabably why RMT doesn't bother me.
I bring up stuff like that when I hear the argument that RMT is getting things for free or invalidating acomplishments. With ~80% of the people saying they are totally opposed to game changing RMT items I wonder how many of those 80% have twinked, PLed or otherwise received game changing items/xp without acomplishing it. For those same people, I wonder why is one any different than the other?
As for the rested idea, I'm all for any ideas that can increase the quality of life for people without significant time. However, that doesn't really address some of the other time related barriers. For instance, while it's true that I can eventually work up to the 100 hour character, developers seem to add challenges that can only be done with large blocks of time, raids and the like. In that case, no matter what I do, I can't catch up if I don't regularly have large blocks of time.
Now if the end game is raiding, then I probably don't care, I don't need gear to go on content that I won't have time for anyway. However, if there are other end game mechanics that I really like, like PvP or public quests, then that gear is now an impediment to me actually playing the game. My lack of time kicks me out of the area that I would enjoy and actively participate in. That's why I want RMT into games, not to buy my way past you, but to possibly buy my way to you.
Me: Then why is he participating in a race with the guy? Why wouldnt he just run on his own?
He participates because he wants to challenge himself.
Why does he need to enter a race for that? The only reason to enter a formal race is to compete against others. He can "challenge" himself without the trappings of a race very easily and at his convenience.
Likewise, someone who just wants to challenge themselves in a game could do so in a single player game...they dont need an MMO for that.
Most people don't enter a marathon with the delusion that they are going to 'win'.
As a self-described "lazy ass", you're not a reliable source for the motivations of Marathon runners. You have no way of knowing that they dont believe they might win.
When was the last time you 'won' an MMO?
When I defeated a gate camp in lowsec Gallente space about 6 weeks ago in Eve. They caught me by surprise and unprepared, but I still managed to escape and complete my mission.
This is unbalanced (intentionally) when a company sells me the magic sword at an item shop for 5 bucks. Now, other people need to hit the item shop to be on par. This opens incredible opportunities for financial exploitation on the part of the game developer.
Can you give examples of the F2P MMOs where a player can just buy the high end or boss drop gear?
Actually I could give you an example of a subscription based game that just introduced performance enhancing loot, superior vehicles and structures that you can only get via RMT. Actually you don't even get to purchase the buffs or items directly. You have to gamble for them with real cash. You pay the online store for a random chance of obtaining what you're after. If I mention the game, however, this thread will very likely get hi-jacked by people that want to defend this practice and the company behind it. It shall therefore remain nameless. The debate is ongoing in another forum, where I think it belongs.
There is also a game that is free to play, but to make progress you have to either hit the item shop or engage in what seems like an endless, repetitive grind of doing things like harvesting sweat from animals. Nealy all the gear is tied to RMT, and it is most definitely performance enhancing.
This brings up another imortant issue. If you pay for play time, you know how much time you're paying for. You pay for 30 days of an entertainment service, or 60, and that's what you get.
Many RMT models specifiy that the item you purchase may be modified, devalued or even deleted at any time, at the company's sole discretion. One company I know of will give you a pro-rated refund if this occurs. You actually lease the item from them for a specified time period. If the item is modified during that time, you can get your money back for the time remaining on the lease. This is very unique though. Most will take your cash, and then do as they please with regard to the item you think you just purchased--very poor customer service in my view.
Okay, let's go with the 20 hour scenario again. (I enjoy discussing this with you btw ^_^). My 20 hour guy will be in the same ball park with other 20 hour people. Mind you, I may have beat quests that someone else struggles with and this may be due to some skill related issues. I think that's good btw. If I can beat this uberboss and get his magic sword, than I earned an edge via skill. The other guy could practice or get help to beat the uber boss, and then we're back on par again. I also think that's good. So, what I'm saying is that people playing the same amount of time are reasonable competitive with each other. This is unbalanced (intentionally) when a company sells me the magic sword at an item shop for 5 bucks. Now, other people need to hit the item shop to be on par. This is especially true if the latest gear is only available via RMT, or if it's so hard to get in game that people will feel compelled to hit the item shop to save themselves the hassle.This opens incredible opportunities for financial exploitation on the part of the game developer. That's one main issue for me as a customer. I suppose the other issue, which is related, is that I don't want to pay for a competitive advantage. I want to pay for entertainment. Buying performance enhancing gear (and possibly being manipulated into doing so) doesn't give me any gameplay entertainment. Now, the scenario you present is very specific. You may want to play alongside others who have progressed further than you. Even that scenario has been addressed without resorting to performance enhancing RMT items. In City of Heroes, they have the side-kick system. It's wonderful. If I'm a level 50 player (top tier) and I want to bring a friend into a level 50 zone, we meet at my batcave (hero-base) and I click on him to make him my side-kick. Voila, now we can play together. He still gets xp that is on par with his actual level too. City of Heroes also lets me drop to his level if I want. It's called exemplaring. Then I can do content in my friend's zones if I want. If I do this, I get cash (ingame) rewards. It's a nice way to boost the bank account. For PvP, I can be dropped to my friend's level to play in an entry level PvP zone also. We can also duel in arenas that allow us to set the level anywhere we choose. The options in City of Heroes ensure that people are paying for entertainment, not a competitive advantage. They also address the desire to want to play with or against one's friends. Some things I like about CoH, others I don't. I think they got this one right though.
Thank you, I have enjoyed the discussion with you, and really most people in this thread. I have a minority view, I realize that and don't expect people to come around to that viewpoint. Which doesn't mean that I don't enjoy the debate.
We'll have to drop exclusive game changing items from the discussion because I would totally agree with you. If the only way you can get the sword is via money, then while it's no more unbalanced than the time scenario, you shifted the point of balance to the folks with money, in effect perpetuating the same imbalance just with a different set of people. So I wholeheartedly agree with you that this is a bad scenario.
However, lets use the magic sword example and assuming that we both need the magic sword to be competitive. Perhaps the "quest" to get that sword takes four hours to do. It's kind of long and hard, but it's an MMO and most people get through it, whether by skill or help or what not. I don't have four hour blocks of time, I can get on for at most two hours at a time. I'm never going to get the sword, and if I need it to get to the next area, or to be competitive in the game then I am pretty much out of luck. If they introduce it in the item shop, you don't have to go buy it, you can spend the four hours and run the quest to get it. Ideally, it's a totally awesome quest and you not only get the item, but four hours of quality time.
You should feel happy you did it, happy that you perservered and won your sword, you did after all earn it. Now we meet again in the next area of the game. You have your sword, I have mine. Granted you've had to play longer than me, but we are still at the same place and can progress or compete as normal. Not only that, but assuming that it's not exclusive and the RMT is not over the top, you'll never know or care how I achieved mine.
See I think that people are so conditioned to bad RMT that they assume all RMT will be bad, because in a nut shell, that's what most of the RMT schemes have been. You see a dark sky that rains on you every time, the assumption is that all dark skys produce rain. Yet it doesn't have to be that way.
So while I agree with the statement that buying game items/xp doesn't give you entertainment, it does give you the ability to perhaps experience the entertainment that you wanted in the first place. Ask your die hard PvP players if they ever want to grind levels. Nearly all will tell you no. They want to play against people and most resent the lengthy level up process it takes them to continually shift characters to the metagame.
I'm glad you brought up CoH, as I did in my prior post. I do think they had a very good method of allowing for people with limited time. As I mentioned I did play that game for 3.5 years, and I think that was a big part of it. I could have a friend join and could play with them immediately. That kind of mechanic makes sense for a SuperHero game, but could be kind of odd in other systems. Still, it is a really good solution. On the downside in that game were the task forces, which game big time rewards. If you don't have time for them ( up to 8 hours per task force on the longers ones, Dr. Q I am looking at you) then you miss out on some of the game's best stuff. Thankfully the content was geared so you could play without, but not all games are that friendly.
Still CoH did have RMT in the game. You could buy packs which would give you in game benefits and none of which I thought were particularly game altering. Most related to travel, although a couple were situational powers like the cyborg self destruct. They were reasonably cheap and paid for the development time to make them. Again, while the company gets lambasted a lot, they had some really good ideas and their RMT was pretty well done. My prior post also said I would have happily have paid 10-20 to skip to level 20 and miss the really dull intro that I have done perhaps 40+ times.
Yet for every way that you can come up with making time less of an advantage, you should be able to come up with the same method for RMT. Why? Because most of us have limited quantites of either. Now finding the balance is hard, but I don't feel impossible.
People that are for RMT, let's address these issues right here: Let's look at an example of pure greed when item shops enter the picture. Sony's Everquest does not have rested xp, instead in Everquest you have to PAY more money for xp potions to speed up your leveling. Why did they not add rested xp as a feature in their game? Item shop. Once a greedy company adds an item shop then the features and content you would have gotten in game to entertain or fix problems with the game will be lessened. Why add rest xp to the game when you can charge 9.99 for an exp potion? Also YOU swiping a credit card to obtain a potion is not your character doing something to obtain the potion. How did your character get that potion? It ruins game immersion as well.
The rested XP system of P2P games without item shops is a great example of how in P2P games once an item shop goes in the subcription paying customer gets less for their money thereafter. I will not support those games, that is pure greed. They lose my subscription. If there are complete F2P games out there that start with an item shop, fine. I can avoid them from the start. My point is F2P with RMT and P2P without should stay seperate. Combining the two is pure greed and should not be supported, unless you want more developers to try to take away more of your content in the future you would normally get for your box prices and subcription fees.
I don't like item shops. I don't play games with item shops.
But what the heck is the "greed" thing about? A company has only one objective, goal, or duty, to make as much money as possible without breaking the law.
EVERY company does that. They are all "greedy" or else they are not companies, they are called Charities. If a company fails to make as much money as it can within the law, then the stock holders (if it's public) will tell the Board of Directors to fire the President and the rest of management, and hire some people that WILL make as much money as possible.
Adding an item shop is about profit not "greed". MMORPGs are not Charities. At least none I know of. If you open an item shop, you will make money from teh shop, and you will lose some monthly subs because some people dont' like item shop games.
It's a simple mathematical calculation that has nothing to do with "greed". Either you will make more money with the item shop, even though you lose some customers, or you will make less money with the item shop because of the customers you lose.
You do the math, you do whichever one makes the most money. Otherwise you are either a charity, you will be fired, or you will go out of business.
This is the kind of thinking behind the problems with companies like AIG. Companies exist to make money, yes. However, they do not exist only to make money. They exist to make money by providing valuable goods and services to consumers.
Making money, when not tied to a commitment to customer satisfaction and quality goods and services, is very short-sighted. It tends to lead to scandal and implosion. You can find example after example that proves this point. Cutting corners on safety to cars, cutting back on inspections at meat packing plants, selling financial products to consumers with hidden costs, making high risk investments with other people's money etc. etc.. All of these things were done in the name of making money, solely. No consideration was given to customer satisfaction or long-term consequences.
It's a popular philosophy in a society that is currently collapsing in on itself because of wrecklessness and greed. If you don't believe me, I think President Obama just said the exact same thing recently; along with economists from here to Asia.
I don't want to drag the thread off topic, but you just agreed with me.
I stated the job of the company, it's one and only job, the reason for existence, is to make as much money as possible within the law.
You just said providing quality goods and services and customer satisfaction will make you more money in the long run. Which is why a company would do that, to make MORE money.
Generally, you make more money with a good product and customer satisfaction than a crappy product and pissed off customers. And that's because of something called competition.
Bad companies that don't make a good product, go out of business. Good companies that make a good product stay in business, and make more and more money. So how is your point adverse to mine?
If companies dont' exist ONLY to make money, then they are callled Charities. Making a good product isn't done from kindness of the company, it's just good business and makes more money.
I think we approach this with a different mental paradigm. We may have to respectfully agree to disagree on this, and that's fine with me btw.
What I'm saying is that if your corporate philosophy puts cash alone at the top of the totem pole, you will inevitably cut corners or do things that disadvantage your customers. A successful corporate philosophy in my view puts cash and customer satisfaction on par with each other, and holds them as objectives in and of themselves.
In your philosophy, customer satisfaction appears to be a means to an end. In mine it is an objective in and of itself. Another objective in and of itself would be environmental responsibility. If these things are subordinate to profit, corners will be cut, mistakes will be made, short-term gain will lead to long-term pain.
There's a very subtle line between my thinking and yours. I think to many, its imperceptible.
Because the difference is moot. Same exact outcome, but one uses emotional pleas to justice, and cries about "greed" one does not.
I treat my customers well, because it's good business and I'll make more money.
You do the same, and say it has nothing to do with making more money, it's just the right thing to do, and the money doesn't matter.
Pardon me if I say you're full of baloney, and you're doing it for the money, just like me.
Comments
You can't possibly be serious.
An NPC weaponsmith standing in the middle of nowhere with nothing but a table in front of him has an entire warehouse of weapons to sell you. Where he has all these stored is anyone's guess, but when you say you'll take the claymore and two full suits of plate, they magically appear in your bag as you transfer 140,000 completely weightless gold coins to him. The guy is always there, by the way, and never once does he stop to eat or sleep or even just wander off for a moment. On top of that, no matter how many times you visit him, he will always talk to you like it's the first time you've ever met. The other cool thing about the guy is that he will buy ANYTHING that you bring him - rat ears, boar balls, spider spinnerettes, troll earwax... it doesn't make a difference. The baker will buy your swords and armor, the smithy will buy your stale bread and magic reagents.
I'm not touching dragons and orcs and fireballs because that's all believable for the character and player as that is within the context of the game world.
But this is all in a world where you log out at any given place and your character magically disappears, only to reappear later and probably wonder "WTF just happened and why am I still standing in this field?" So he runs to town with his two backpacks that are currently filled with the previous 200 lbs of supplies and now two full suits of plate and a claymore, all psyched to get started on a new magical robe for his friends. When he gets to town, however, he talks to his trainer who tells him that it is impossible for him to make that type of robe because he is too low level a warrior to do so, as if the number of rats you slaughter has any bearing on your ability to finely hem delicate silks.
In a world as screwed up as that, I think that if my character woke up one day with a magic potion on his nightstand that wasn't there the night before, he probably wouldn't question it. He'd just drink it and start his day.
Are you comparing realism of in game world transactions with out of game world transactions? I am afraid you are the one who doesn't get it. In your example the NPC sold it to you, how is that hard to grasp? Your character obtained it through and in game means. Through gameplay. You swiping a credit card out of game and then the character getting the potion brings you out of the game world ... it isn't hard to grasp. You are the one that doesn't care for immersion in game as long as you have that shiny sword. Doesn't matter you to you that your character didn't get it in game does it? You miss the point of rpgs.
My characters buy their gear from a shop. The last thing I bought was a cap with a flag on it. It was bought in game through the black market in Combat Arms. The item before that was a pilot's license extension (game time) purchased right on the regional trade market ingame in EVE. The item before that was a straw hat and my character picked it up in the cash item window when trading at an NPC in Florensia.
Qombi, have you even played a F2P MMO?
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Sure, buying performance items creates imbalance, we don't all have the same amount of money to spend. However, if the other hockey team is allowed to play an extra 15 minutes after the first, the game is no less fair. Sure you can play hard for the same three periods, but no matter what you do, they get the extra 15 minutes. How fair is that?
In an MMO, if you have only put in 2 hours of gameplay, there are always going to be others who have put in 2 hours of gameplay. You will therefore be on on even playing field with those players. These players also tend to have access to common zones.
If you put in 20 hours, you'll be on a level playing field with people who put in 20 hours. Maybe they put in that much time in a week, whereas it takes you a month to play 20 hours. That's fine, you're still on a level playing field, and still playing in the same game zones.
Also, you've both enjoyed 20 hours of entertaining gameplay. So, your character development is part of the entertainment you're paying for.
Now, let's introduce performance enhancing RMT. You've played 20 hours, and so has someone else. You should be on an equal footing, but he buys an RMT item that gives him a combat advantage. He now owns you because he purchased an advantage from an online store. He kicks your butt at PvP and he's more useful to a team than you are in PvE. Now things are out of whack. Now, if you want to be competitive or remain useful, you have to purchase the same thing from the online store; or you enter into what amounts to an arms race, where the person with the highest visa limit now has the most badass avatar in the game.
None of this character development is connected with entertaining gameplay, and no amount of time you put into the game will enable you to stay competitive if everyone but you is going to the online item shop to buy instant uberness. Companies can then of course exploit this to maneuver people into spending more on RMT than they ever would on a monthly subscription.
In fact, one MMO company CEO favoured switching to RMT for exactly this reason. They get more cash, you get less entertainment value. I just can't get behind that.
Well I'll agree with you that Sony has done a bad job with Everquest, and a terrible job with Star Wars. However, that does not mean that every implementation of RMT has to be bad. I think that Guild Wars and City of Heroes have done a pretty good job. Just because a publisher or a developer makes a bad job of it does not mean that everyone will do it.
I don't like item shops. I don't play games with item shops.
But what the heck is the "greed" thing about? A company has only one objective, goal, or duty, to make as much money as possible without breaking the law.
EVERY company does that. They are all "greedy" or else they are not companies, they are called Charities. If a company fails to make as much money as it can within the law, then the stock holders (if it's public) will tell the Board of Directors to fire the President and the rest of management, and hire some people that WILL make as much money as possible.
Adding an item shop is about profit not "greed". MMORPGs are not Charities. At least none I know of. If you open an item shop, you will make money from teh shop, and you will lose some monthly subs because some people dont' like item shop games.
It's a simple mathematical calculation that has nothing to do with "greed". Either you will make more money with the item shop, even though you lose some customers, or you will make less money with the item shop because of the customers you lose.
You do the math, you do whichever one makes the most money. Otherwise you are either a charity, you will be fired, or you will go out of business.
This is the kind of thinking behind the problems with companies like AIG. Companies exist to make money, yes. However, they do not exist only to make money. They exist to make money by providing valuable goods and services to consumers.
Making money, when not tied to a commitment to customer satisfaction and quality goods and services, is very short-sighted. It tends to lead to scandal and implosion. You can find example after example that proves this point. Cutting corners on safety to cars, cutting back on inspections at meat packing plants, selling financial products to consumers with hidden costs, making high risk investments with other people's money etc. etc.. All of these things were done in the name of making money, solely. No consideration was given to customer satisfaction or long-term consequences.
It's a popular philosophy in a society that is currently collapsing in on itself because of wrecklessness and greed. If you don't believe me, I think President Obama just said the exact same thing recently; along with economists from here to Asia.
I can understand, and even empathize with that point of view. However, let's try that 20 hour player again.
We both have 20 hours in the game, we deul, it's fun. Forget that I don't believe that balance would exist between us even then (class balance, luck, drops, twinking, PLing, etc.). We have a reasonable deul where we appear balanced. That's great, I friend you so we can do it again.
You can put in 20 hours a week, I can put in 5. We meet next week and you are a 40 hour character and I am a 25 hour character. Yes, I can work for another three weeks to catch your 40, but then you're a 100 hour character. So even if I did buy the concept that MMOs are fair in any sense of the word (and I don't). You are telling me that I can never play with the same people in a majority of games. I have no mechanism to catch you because I am poor; time poor.
As for having to buy something to keep up. Well you're already out pacing me anyway. I can't keep up with you. However, as long as the game gives us different avenues that are reasonable and balanced, then we each can achieve our "badass avatars" and remain relevant to the game.
I'll contend that time is no less fair than money. I'll also agree that many RMT schemes are poor. That doesn't mean that money is any less or more fair than time. It's on par.
I will ask you the same question that I asked others, what about those that twink, PL, or otherwise accelerate their game play in a manner that's not consistent with the intent of the game? Doesn't that get someone to be the most "badass avatar" without any effort? Why is that more palatable than RMT? Both cases are skipping content you had to do and gaining things at a rate far above the time they put into the game.
I still do not think money is the way though. I just cannot see a way where money can be used to catch up and it always be fair for everyone. Like said earlier in this thread, someone with time and money trumps all.
Concerning the power-leveling, twinking, and what not, I hate it as much as you. I feel that those are exploits and should not happen. Some will argue I can do the same thing in the game but why would I do something that goes against my perspective of "the spirit of the game"? Just my opinion some will agree and disagree but it won't change my mind lol.
Anyhow, maybe if games use the exp boost from "resting" like WoW does but more extreme would solve some of the problem. It does unnerve me a little with the notion of a more extreme version of the rested exp boost but with it in place I cannot make the same argument as I did concerning money. The problem with money was the fact that not everyone makes the same amount per hour therefore some peoples time in reality is more productive than others that is then directly translated to the game. But with rested time, the the increase of the duration of the buff is constant for everyone therefore everyone's down time is equally productive no matter what. For this to really work though only 1 character can get the boost at a time. Also you can only play the character that has the rest boost set to it. So in essence you set a "main" character and the others become inactive and are literally frozen in time.
Now I cannot say that if you just played you get so much content done because it's the same for everyone because now you can make the exact same argument using your commodity, rest time.
Then you can proceed to tell me that if I had a life I would get the awesome exp buff too.
Can any of you who feel it is unfair present an example using an existing F2P game? Age of Armor and War Rock excluded because those two are simply bad design. Using those as examples of why all RMT is bad is like using UO 1998 as an example of why all housing is bad.
Qombi's made it very clear he has no familiarity at all with the actual mechanics of any of this and I get the feeling that a lot of the anti-RMT stuff is based on assumptions and regurgitation of misinformation.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
I don't like item shops. I don't play games with item shops.
But what the heck is the "greed" thing about? A company has only one objective, goal, or duty, to make as much money as possible without breaking the law.
EVERY company does that. They are all "greedy" or else they are not companies, they are called Charities. If a company fails to make as much money as it can within the law, then the stock holders (if it's public) will tell the Board of Directors to fire the President and the rest of management, and hire some people that WILL make as much money as possible.
Adding an item shop is about profit not "greed". MMORPGs are not Charities. At least none I know of. If you open an item shop, you will make money from teh shop, and you will lose some monthly subs because some people dont' like item shop games.
It's a simple mathematical calculation that has nothing to do with "greed". Either you will make more money with the item shop, even though you lose some customers, or you will make less money with the item shop because of the customers you lose.
You do the math, you do whichever one makes the most money. Otherwise you are either a charity, you will be fired, or you will go out of business.
This is the kind of thinking behind the problems with companies like AIG. Companies exist to make money, yes. However, they do not exist only to make money. They exist to make money by providing valuable goods and services to consumers.
Making money, when not tied to a commitment to customer satisfaction and quality goods and services, is very short-sighted. It tends to lead to scandal and implosion. You can find example after example that proves this point. Cutting corners on safety to cars, cutting back on inspections at meat packing plants, selling financial products to consumers with hidden costs, making high risk investments with other people's money etc. etc.. All of these things were done in the name of making money, solely. No consideration was given to customer satisfaction or long-term consequences.
It's a popular philosophy in a society that is currently collapsing in on itself because of wrecklessness and greed. If you don't believe me, I think President Obama just said the exact same thing recently; along with economists from here to Asia.
I don't want to drag the thread off topic, but you just agreed with me.
I stated the job of the company, it's one and only job, the reason for existence, is to make as much money as possible within the law.
You just said providing quality goods and services and customer satisfaction will make you more money in the long run. Which is why a company would do that, to make MORE money.
Generally, you make more money with a good product and customer satisfaction than a crappy product and pissed off customers. And that's because of something called competition.
Bad companies that don't make a good product, go out of business. Good companies that make a good product stay in business, and make more and more money. So how is your point adverse to mine?
If companies dont' exist ONLY to make money, then they are callled Charities. Making a good product isn't done from kindness of the company, it's just good business and makes more money.
You can put in 20 hours a week, I can put in 5. We meet next week and you are a 40 hour character and I am a 25 hour character. Yes, I can work for another three weeks to catch your 40, but then you're a 100 hour character.
Then you need to put in more time or he needs to put in less. The fact that you cant put in as much time as him doesnt make the game unfair. In the same way that it is not unfair in a marathon that some runners had more time to train than others.
If you put in the same time as him, you can make the same progress. Thats fair.
As for having to buy something to keep up. Well you're already out pacing me anyway. I can't keep up with you.
What about the guy who can only put in an hour? You're outpacing him by a factor of five, right?
I dont see how RMT would solve that "problem". Its the exact same thing, except with money instead of time. How does that make anything more fair?
Time is an objective measure. Money is not. Thats why the two are not analogous.
I will ask you the same question that I asked others, what about those that twink, PL, or otherwise accelerate their game play in a manner that's not consistent with the intent of the game? Doesn't that get someone to be the most "badass avatar" without any effort?
Yes. Thats why I oppose twinking and powerlevelling as well. But that is a separate issue from RMT.
Why is that more palatable than RMT?
Who says it is? But the thread is about RMT.
But what about your marathon runner's shoes? The guy who can afford the expensive shoes has an unfair advantage over the poor runners. That's unfair! Stop all marathons! /cry We must create fairness!
www.emotionalcompetency.com/distortions.htm
While the entire article would benefit many of you, check out "Fallacy of Fairness" about half way down the page.
But what about your marathon runner's shoes?
It is irrelevant, since they have no significant impact on the outcome of the race.
The guy who can afford the expensive shoes has an unfair advantage over the poor runners.
I disagree that the advantage is unfair. Shoe type provides a trivial advantage at best.
Stop all marathons! /cry We must create fairness!
The people running them dont seem to have a problem with the current rules. That tells you what the majority opinion is.
I don't like item shops. I don't play games with item shops.
But what the heck is the "greed" thing about? A company has only one objective, goal, or duty, to make as much money as possible without breaking the law.
EVERY company does that. They are all "greedy" or else they are not companies, they are called Charities. If a company fails to make as much money as it can within the law, then the stock holders (if it's public) will tell the Board of Directors to fire the President and the rest of management, and hire some people that WILL make as much money as possible.
Adding an item shop is about profit not "greed". MMORPGs are not Charities. At least none I know of. If you open an item shop, you will make money from teh shop, and you will lose some monthly subs because some people dont' like item shop games.
It's a simple mathematical calculation that has nothing to do with "greed". Either you will make more money with the item shop, even though you lose some customers, or you will make less money with the item shop because of the customers you lose.
You do the math, you do whichever one makes the most money. Otherwise you are either a charity, you will be fired, or you will go out of business.
This is the kind of thinking behind the problems with companies like AIG. Companies exist to make money, yes. However, they do not exist only to make money. They exist to make money by providing valuable goods and services to consumers.
Making money, when not tied to a commitment to customer satisfaction and quality goods and services, is very short-sighted. It tends to lead to scandal and implosion. You can find example after example that proves this point. Cutting corners on safety to cars, cutting back on inspections at meat packing plants, selling financial products to consumers with hidden costs, making high risk investments with other people's money etc. etc.. All of these things were done in the name of making money, solely. No consideration was given to customer satisfaction or long-term consequences.
It's a popular philosophy in a society that is currently collapsing in on itself because of wrecklessness and greed. If you don't believe me, I think President Obama just said the exact same thing recently; along with economists from here to Asia.
I don't want to drag the thread off topic, but you just agreed with me.
I stated the job of the company, it's one and only job, the reason for existence, is to make as much money as possible within the law.
You just said providing quality goods and services and customer satisfaction will make you more money in the long run. Which is why a company would do that, to make MORE money.
Generally, you make more money with a good product and customer satisfaction than a crappy product and pissed off customers. And that's because of something called competition.
Bad companies that don't make a good product, go out of business. Good companies that make a good product stay in business, and make more and more money. So how is your point adverse to mine?
If companies dont' exist ONLY to make money, then they are callled Charities. Making a good product isn't done from kindness of the company, it's just good business and makes more money.
I think we approach this with a different mental paradigm. We may have to respectfully agree to disagree on this, and that's fine with me btw.
What I'm saying is that if your corporate philosophy puts cash alone at the top of the totem pole, you will inevitably cut corners or do things that disadvantage your customers. A successful corporate philosophy in my view puts cash and customer satisfaction on par with each other, and holds them as objectives in and of themselves.
In your philosophy, customer satisfaction appears to be a means to an end. In mine it is an objective in and of itself. Another objective in and of itself would be environmental responsibility. If these things are subordinate to profit, corners will be cut, mistakes will be made, short-term gain will lead to long-term pain.
There's a very subtle line between my thinking and yours. I think to many, its imperceptible.
Yes, just as the majority opinion on RMT is that it's just fine and dandy. We're talking about an actual majority, based on worldwide users, not the opinions of the mmorpg.com outcasts.
The guy with the $10.00 falling apart shoes is running the race for his own reasons, and does not feel the need to 'compete' with the guy who has the $200.00 shoes. If he did, the problem would be in his own head, and something he should deal with internally, instead of whining and crying.
I don't like item shops. I don't play games with item shops.
But what the heck is the "greed" thing about? A company has only one objective, goal, or duty, to make as much money as possible without breaking the law.
EVERY company does that. They are all "greedy" or else they are not companies, they are called Charities. If a company fails to make as much money as it can within the law, then the stock holders (if it's public) will tell the Board of Directors to fire the President and the rest of management, and hire some people that WILL make as much money as possible.
Adding an item shop is about profit not "greed". MMORPGs are not Charities. At least none I know of. If you open an item shop, you will make money from teh shop, and you will lose some monthly subs because some people dont' like item shop games.
It's a simple mathematical calculation that has nothing to do with "greed". Either you will make more money with the item shop, even though you lose some customers, or you will make less money with the item shop because of the customers you lose.
You do the math, you do whichever one makes the most money. Otherwise you are either a charity, you will be fired, or you will go out of business.
This is the kind of thinking behind the problems with companies like AIG. Companies exist to make money, yes. However, they do not exist only to make money. They exist to make money by providing valuable goods and services to consumers.
Making money, when not tied to a commitment to customer satisfaction and quality goods and services, is very short-sighted. It tends to lead to scandal and implosion. You can find example after example that proves this point. Cutting corners on safety to cars, cutting back on inspections at meat packing plants, selling financial products to consumers with hidden costs, making high risk investments with other people's money etc. etc.. All of these things were done in the name of making money, solely. No consideration was given to customer satisfaction or long-term consequences.
It's a popular philosophy in a society that is currently collapsing in on itself because of wrecklessness and greed. If you don't believe me, I think President Obama just said the exact same thing recently; along with economists from here to Asia.
I don't want to drag the thread off topic, but you just agreed with me.
I stated the job of the company, it's one and only job, the reason for existence, is to make as much money as possible within the law.
You just said providing quality goods and services and customer satisfaction will make you more money in the long run. Which is why a company would do that, to make MORE money.
Generally, you make more money with a good product and customer satisfaction than a crappy product and pissed off customers. And that's because of something called competition.
Bad companies that don't make a good product, go out of business. Good companies that make a good product stay in business, and make more and more money. So how is your point adverse to mine?
If companies dont' exist ONLY to make money, then they are callled Charities. Making a good product isn't done from kindness of the company, it's just good business and makes more money.
I think we approach this with a different mental paradigm. We may have to respectfully agree to disagree on this, and that's fine with me btw.
What I'm saying is that if your corporate philosophy puts cash alone at the top of the totem pole, you will inevitably cut corners or do things that disadvantage your customers. A successful corporate philosophy in my view puts cash and customer satisfaction on par with each other, and holds them as objectives in and of themselves.
In your philosophy, customer satisfaction appears to be a means to an end. In mine it is an objective in and of itself. Another objective in and of itself would be environmental responsibility. If these things are subordinate to profit, corners will be cut, mistakes will be made, short-term gain will lead to long-term pain.
There's a very subtle line between my thinking and yours. I think to many, its imperceptible.
It's not HIS corporate philosophy. It's reality. As much as I hate agreeing with this guy, and trust me it's painful, he's completely correct. Corporations exist for one reason: Money. They satisfy customers only as long as it makes them profit. If it's more profitable to let a number of customers be upset, then that's what they'll do. You have a lovely little 'philosophy", and it's a great idea, but it's not reality, it's not the way things are done.
He was not telling you how things SHOULD be, he was simply pointing out the way things ARE.
I can understand, and even empathize with that point of view. However, let's try that 20 hour player again.
We both have 20 hours in the game, we deul, it's fun. Forget that I don't believe that balance would exist between us even then (class balance, luck, drops, twinking, PLing, etc.). We have a reasonable deul where we appear balanced. That's great, I friend you so we can do it again.
You can put in 20 hours a week, I can put in 5. We meet next week and you are a 40 hour character and I am a 25 hour character. Yes, I can work for another three weeks to catch your 40, but then you're a 100 hour character. So even if I did buy the concept that MMOs are fair in any sense of the word (and I don't). You are telling me that I can never play with the same people in a majority of games. I have no mechanism to catch you because I am poor; time poor.
As for having to buy something to keep up. Well you're already out pacing me anyway. I can't keep up with you. However, as long as the game gives us different avenues that are reasonable and balanced, then we each can achieve our "badass avatars" and remain relevant to the game.
I'll contend that time is no less fair than money. I'll also agree that many RMT schemes are poor. That doesn't mean that money is any less or more fair than time. It's on par.
I will ask you the same question that I asked others, what about those that twink, PL, or otherwise accelerate their game play in a manner that's not consistent with the intent of the game? Doesn't that get someone to be the most "badass avatar" without any effort? Why is that more palatable than RMT? Both cases are skipping content you had to do and gaining things at a rate far above the time they put into the game.
Okay, let's go with the 20 hour scenario again. (I enjoy discussing this with you btw ^_^). My 20 hour guy will be in the same ball park with other 20 hour people. Mind you, I may have beat quests that someone else struggles with and this may be due to some skill related issues. I think that's good btw. If I can beat this uberboss and get his magic sword, than I earned an edge via skill. The other guy could practice or get help to beat the uber boss, and then we're back on par again. I also think that's good.
So, what I'm saying is that people playing the same amount of time are reasonable competitive with each other. This is unbalanced (intentionally) when a company sells me the magic sword at an item shop for 5 bucks. Now, other people need to hit the item shop to be on par. This is especially true if the latest gear is only available via RMT, or if it's so hard to get in game that people will feel compelled to hit the item shop to save themselves the hassle. This opens incredible opportunities for financial exploitation on the part of the game developer. That's one main issue for me as a customer.
I suppose the other issue, which is related, is that I don't want to pay for a competitive advantage. I want to pay for entertainment. Buying performance enhancing gear (and possibly being manipulated into doing so) doesn't give me any gameplay entertainment.
Now, the scenario you present is very specific. You may want to play alongside others who have progressed further than you. Even that scenario has been addressed without resorting to performance enhancing RMT items. In City of Heroes, they have the side-kick system. It's wonderful. If I'm a level 50 player (top tier) and I want to bring a friend into a level 50 zone, we meet at my batcave (hero-base) and I click on him to make him my side-kick. Voila, now we can play together. He still gets xp that is on par with his actual level too.
City of Heroes also lets me drop to his level if I want. It's called exemplaring. Then I can do content in my friend's zones if I want. If I do this, I get cash (ingame) rewards. It's a nice way to boost the bank account. For PvP, I can be dropped to my friend's level to play in an entry level PvP zone also. We can also duel in arenas that allow us to set the level anywhere we choose.
The options in City of Heroes ensure that people are paying for entertainment, not a competitive advantage. They also address the desire to want to play with or against one's friends. Some things I like about CoH, others I don't. I think they got this one right though.
Can you give examples of the F2P MMOs where a player can just buy the high end or boss drop gear?
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Yes, just as the majority opinion on RMT is that it's just fine and dandy.
Not according to the poll, or any of the mainstream MMOs out right now. Trivial RMT is the only RMT that appears to be acceptable...just like choosing your own shoes seems to be acceptable to most marathon runners.
We're talking about an actual majority, based on worldwide users
Who is "we" paleface? heh heh
From what I can see, everyone on here is talking about MMOs in the US and maybe europe. No one is arguing that Asians dont like RMT.
The guy with the $10.00 falling apart shoes is running the race for his own reasons, and does not feel the need to 'compete' with the guy who has the $200.00 shoes.
Then why is he participating in a race with the guy? Why wouldnt he just run on his own?
City of Heroes also lets me drop to his level if I want. It's called exemplaring. Then I can do content in my friend's zones if I want. For PvP, I can be dropped to my friends level to play in an entry level PvP zone also. We can also duel in arenas that allow us to set the level anywhere we choose.
That is a good response to the people claiming time is unfair because some people have more time than others. The system in CoH resolves this without polluting the game world with RMT.
He participates because he wants to challenge himself. And in a way that my lazy ass will never understand, he actually enjoys it. Most people don't enter a marathon with the delusion that they are going to 'win'. When was the last time you 'won' an MMO?
Now I would never do that... I'd likely tell you to use those extra hours to make more money so you can keep pace
While I'm joking, and would never want people to feel they have to go work more to enjoy their entertainment, it is a pretty close analogy to people telling those of us without time that we could play more, or we'll catch up eventually. That's why if you introduce RMT into the equation, it should be in a way that doesn't invalidate the time of people who are willing to go it the long way.
I used my own example of wanting to skip the first 20 levels of CoX. I played there for 3.5 years with 2 accounts, and loved the game. However, after your 30th character, you really don't need those intro levels. So a typical 1-20 run takes about 5-10 hours in that game. Charge $10-20 dollars for it. It's enough money that most people won't do it and those that do won't feel like they have been cheated of their time. If you find that everyone is buying their way out of 1-20, you raise the rate... and probably look at introducing more interesting content into that level band.
When you have a nice balance of people doing the long way and RMTing out, then you are about where you should be and you can look at other areas of your game.
As for PLing, twinking, and the like, I don't really mind them all that much other than the consant din of pl requests that seem to permeate through the game. I don't really do it myself (with the 1-20 boost in CoH that I gave my own characters) but then I don't really care all that much what other people are doing in the game. Which is also proabably why RMT doesn't bother me.
I bring up stuff like that when I hear the argument that RMT is getting things for free or invalidating acomplishments. With ~80% of the people saying they are totally opposed to game changing RMT items I wonder how many of those 80% have twinked, PLed or otherwise received game changing items/xp without acomplishing it. For those same people, I wonder why is one any different than the other?
As for the rested idea, I'm all for any ideas that can increase the quality of life for people without significant time. However, that doesn't really address some of the other time related barriers. For instance, while it's true that I can eventually work up to the 100 hour character, developers seem to add challenges that can only be done with large blocks of time, raids and the like. In that case, no matter what I do, I can't catch up if I don't regularly have large blocks of time.
Now if the end game is raiding, then I probably don't care, I don't need gear to go on content that I won't have time for anyway. However, if there are other end game mechanics that I really like, like PvP or public quests, then that gear is now an impediment to me actually playing the game. My lack of time kicks me out of the area that I would enjoy and actively participate in. That's why I want RMT into games, not to buy my way past you, but to possibly buy my way to you.
Me: Then why is he participating in a race with the guy? Why wouldnt he just run on his own?
He participates because he wants to challenge himself.
Why does he need to enter a race for that? The only reason to enter a formal race is to compete against others. He can "challenge" himself without the trappings of a race very easily and at his convenience.
Likewise, someone who just wants to challenge themselves in a game could do so in a single player game...they dont need an MMO for that.
Most people don't enter a marathon with the delusion that they are going to 'win'.
As a self-described "lazy ass", you're not a reliable source for the motivations of Marathon runners. You have no way of knowing that they dont believe they might win.
When was the last time you 'won' an MMO?
When I defeated a gate camp in lowsec Gallente space about 6 weeks ago in Eve. They caught me by surprise and unprepared, but I still managed to escape and complete my mission.
Can you give examples of the F2P MMOs where a player can just buy the high end or boss drop gear?
Actually I could give you an example of a subscription based game that just introduced performance enhancing loot, superior vehicles and structures that you can only get via RMT. Actually you don't even get to purchase the buffs or items directly. You have to gamble for them with real cash. You pay the online store for a random chance of obtaining what you're after. If I mention the game, however, this thread will very likely get hi-jacked by people that want to defend this practice and the company behind it. It shall therefore remain nameless. The debate is ongoing in another forum, where I think it belongs.
There is also a game that is free to play, but to make progress you have to either hit the item shop or engage in what seems like an endless, repetitive grind of doing things like harvesting sweat from animals. Nealy all the gear is tied to RMT, and it is most definitely performance enhancing.
This brings up another imortant issue. If you pay for play time, you know how much time you're paying for. You pay for 30 days of an entertainment service, or 60, and that's what you get.
Many RMT models specifiy that the item you purchase may be modified, devalued or even deleted at any time, at the company's sole discretion. One company I know of will give you a pro-rated refund if this occurs. You actually lease the item from them for a specified time period. If the item is modified during that time, you can get your money back for the time remaining on the lease. This is very unique though. Most will take your cash, and then do as they please with regard to the item you think you just purchased--very poor customer service in my view.
Thank you, I have enjoyed the discussion with you, and really most people in this thread. I have a minority view, I realize that and don't expect people to come around to that viewpoint. Which doesn't mean that I don't enjoy the debate.
We'll have to drop exclusive game changing items from the discussion because I would totally agree with you. If the only way you can get the sword is via money, then while it's no more unbalanced than the time scenario, you shifted the point of balance to the folks with money, in effect perpetuating the same imbalance just with a different set of people. So I wholeheartedly agree with you that this is a bad scenario.
However, lets use the magic sword example and assuming that we both need the magic sword to be competitive. Perhaps the "quest" to get that sword takes four hours to do. It's kind of long and hard, but it's an MMO and most people get through it, whether by skill or help or what not. I don't have four hour blocks of time, I can get on for at most two hours at a time. I'm never going to get the sword, and if I need it to get to the next area, or to be competitive in the game then I am pretty much out of luck. If they introduce it in the item shop, you don't have to go buy it, you can spend the four hours and run the quest to get it. Ideally, it's a totally awesome quest and you not only get the item, but four hours of quality time.
You should feel happy you did it, happy that you perservered and won your sword, you did after all earn it. Now we meet again in the next area of the game. You have your sword, I have mine. Granted you've had to play longer than me, but we are still at the same place and can progress or compete as normal. Not only that, but assuming that it's not exclusive and the RMT is not over the top, you'll never know or care how I achieved mine.
See I think that people are so conditioned to bad RMT that they assume all RMT will be bad, because in a nut shell, that's what most of the RMT schemes have been. You see a dark sky that rains on you every time, the assumption is that all dark skys produce rain. Yet it doesn't have to be that way.
So while I agree with the statement that buying game items/xp doesn't give you entertainment, it does give you the ability to perhaps experience the entertainment that you wanted in the first place. Ask your die hard PvP players if they ever want to grind levels. Nearly all will tell you no. They want to play against people and most resent the lengthy level up process it takes them to continually shift characters to the metagame.
I'm glad you brought up CoH, as I did in my prior post. I do think they had a very good method of allowing for people with limited time. As I mentioned I did play that game for 3.5 years, and I think that was a big part of it. I could have a friend join and could play with them immediately. That kind of mechanic makes sense for a SuperHero game, but could be kind of odd in other systems. Still, it is a really good solution. On the downside in that game were the task forces, which game big time rewards. If you don't have time for them ( up to 8 hours per task force on the longers ones, Dr. Q I am looking at you) then you miss out on some of the game's best stuff. Thankfully the content was geared so you could play without, but not all games are that friendly.
Still CoH did have RMT in the game. You could buy packs which would give you in game benefits and none of which I thought were particularly game altering. Most related to travel, although a couple were situational powers like the cyborg self destruct. They were reasonably cheap and paid for the development time to make them. Again, while the company gets lambasted a lot, they had some really good ideas and their RMT was pretty well done. My prior post also said I would have happily have paid 10-20 to skip to level 20 and miss the really dull intro that I have done perhaps 40+ times.
Yet for every way that you can come up with making time less of an advantage, you should be able to come up with the same method for RMT. Why? Because most of us have limited quantites of either. Now finding the balance is hard, but I don't feel impossible.
I don't like item shops. I don't play games with item shops.
But what the heck is the "greed" thing about? A company has only one objective, goal, or duty, to make as much money as possible without breaking the law.
EVERY company does that. They are all "greedy" or else they are not companies, they are called Charities. If a company fails to make as much money as it can within the law, then the stock holders (if it's public) will tell the Board of Directors to fire the President and the rest of management, and hire some people that WILL make as much money as possible.
Adding an item shop is about profit not "greed". MMORPGs are not Charities. At least none I know of. If you open an item shop, you will make money from teh shop, and you will lose some monthly subs because some people dont' like item shop games.
It's a simple mathematical calculation that has nothing to do with "greed". Either you will make more money with the item shop, even though you lose some customers, or you will make less money with the item shop because of the customers you lose.
You do the math, you do whichever one makes the most money. Otherwise you are either a charity, you will be fired, or you will go out of business.
This is the kind of thinking behind the problems with companies like AIG. Companies exist to make money, yes. However, they do not exist only to make money. They exist to make money by providing valuable goods and services to consumers.
Making money, when not tied to a commitment to customer satisfaction and quality goods and services, is very short-sighted. It tends to lead to scandal and implosion. You can find example after example that proves this point. Cutting corners on safety to cars, cutting back on inspections at meat packing plants, selling financial products to consumers with hidden costs, making high risk investments with other people's money etc. etc.. All of these things were done in the name of making money, solely. No consideration was given to customer satisfaction or long-term consequences.
It's a popular philosophy in a society that is currently collapsing in on itself because of wrecklessness and greed. If you don't believe me, I think President Obama just said the exact same thing recently; along with economists from here to Asia.
I don't want to drag the thread off topic, but you just agreed with me.
I stated the job of the company, it's one and only job, the reason for existence, is to make as much money as possible within the law.
You just said providing quality goods and services and customer satisfaction will make you more money in the long run. Which is why a company would do that, to make MORE money.
Generally, you make more money with a good product and customer satisfaction than a crappy product and pissed off customers. And that's because of something called competition.
Bad companies that don't make a good product, go out of business. Good companies that make a good product stay in business, and make more and more money. So how is your point adverse to mine?
If companies dont' exist ONLY to make money, then they are callled Charities. Making a good product isn't done from kindness of the company, it's just good business and makes more money.
I think we approach this with a different mental paradigm. We may have to respectfully agree to disagree on this, and that's fine with me btw.
What I'm saying is that if your corporate philosophy puts cash alone at the top of the totem pole, you will inevitably cut corners or do things that disadvantage your customers. A successful corporate philosophy in my view puts cash and customer satisfaction on par with each other, and holds them as objectives in and of themselves.
In your philosophy, customer satisfaction appears to be a means to an end. In mine it is an objective in and of itself. Another objective in and of itself would be environmental responsibility. If these things are subordinate to profit, corners will be cut, mistakes will be made, short-term gain will lead to long-term pain.
There's a very subtle line between my thinking and yours. I think to many, its imperceptible.
Because the difference is moot. Same exact outcome, but one uses emotional pleas to justice, and cries about "greed" one does not.
I treat my customers well, because it's good business and I'll make more money.
You do the same, and say it has nothing to do with making more money, it's just the right thing to do, and the money doesn't matter.
Pardon me if I say you're full of baloney, and you're doing it for the money, just like me.