Actually I could give you an example of a subscription based game that just introduced performance enhancing loot, superior vehicles and structures that you can only get via RMT. Actually you don't even get to purchase the buffs or items directly. You have to gamble for them with real cash. You pay the online store for a random chance of obtaining what you're after. If I mention the game, however, this thread will very likely get hi-jacked by people that want to defend this practice and the company behind it. It shall therefore remain nameless. The debate is ongoing in another forum, where I think it belongs. There is also a game that is free to play, but to make progress you have to either hit the item shop or engage in what seems like an endless, repetitive grind of doing things like harvesting sweat from animals. Nealy all the gear is tied to RMT, and it is most definitely performance enhancing.
That's the example I was waiting for. The issue there isn't RMT but a unique (IMO, poor) use of it. Your argument is based solely on the extreme exception and not the norm.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
I use to be an anti- RMT crusader. It's painfully clear we lost that battle a couple of years ago.
RMT has been around for over a decade and there is nothing new about it except the companies themselves have gotten tired of loosing out on all that revenue companies like I*E have been raking in for the last 5 or 6 years.
It was a matter of time before it came to this and frankly I'm surprised it took so long for Corp greed to kick in.
The best we can hope for is that a F2P / Premium monthly sub model like DDO is trying becomes the norm. Worse case you end up with SOE type games with monthly subs AND RMT.
First, about your argument that MMORPGs are unfair in nature due to the existance of illegal RMT, etc...:
illegal RMT exist, cheating and botting exist, chinese gold farmers, whatever... yeah they exist, but for the purpose of discussing if pay to win RMT should be allowed/legalized/perpetuated/incentivated you cant start from that principle, because in one, people are banned if they are caught and in the other they arent.
It also doesnt matter if the gameguard/hackshields of life cant prevent anything either. Even aion have bots already, Darkfall had hacks in the first day, but you cant argument that if those are possible then legal RMT should be too.
I disagree with you there and thats what base your defense of the RMT.
If its forbidden you cant base off. Its a falacy. You cant count on something that is not certain. Legal RMT is certain, Illegal RMT, cheats/bots/hacks whatever is not.
If most companies sucks at preventing those, it doesnt make its existance certain to the point where you can count them to be there, thus allowing the ridiculous feat of making legal RMT, ok. (They are not ok, they are pay to win money scams)
Now, I want to discuss the second point, something more particular:
Peoples time and effort spent are not equal. It was always like that in the history of MMORPGs.
People inteligence levels are different as well, it was always like that. People experience in playing games, reflexes, social skills, organization, whatever traits you name it! They are all subjective, as time and effort also is. THOSE ARE WHAT MAKE LIFE UNBALANCED, THAT WHAT MAKES MMORPGS UNBALANCED.
Its perfectly fine for some people to own others in the games, specially those who have spent more time and effort in the game, or those who understand the game mechanics, or those who have better organization, etc.
People have different degrees of natural traits, and those are factors that determine success. Money is not one of them.
What matters is what you are, not what you possess.
Thats the natural order of power in the history of MMORPGs.
Hardcore people own casual people in games where time and effort spent is key, no matter how much money casuals or hardcores have.
Thats what I believe. Thats how I see MMORPGs and thas how I want it to remain.
Legal RMT messes with my so called "natural order of power". It reduces my characteristics as a player to nothing but my wallet. I do have money, its just that using it defeats the purpose, it takes away my pleasure of feeling superior by whatever I achieve with my subjective "skills".
RMT gives another "avenue" that shouldnt exist.
I recognize that when games are so bland that the only big factor is "time" spent, it becomes a matter of who is more "no-lifer" and there is no reason to be proud of that. Im old school, I grew and I dont have the same ammount of "grinding" time as I did back in the day. I dont think we should be fighting for balancing time with money.
My fight is that money is being used not only to balance time, but balance everything individual skill/trait/characteristic of the player.
Also, even in those games where time is the main factor, we shouldnt ignore (or replace or balance it with money) the importance of time. Time is what gives the chronological element to the progression and persistence of the world in Massive Multiplayer Games.
If whatever people do progress and evolve their characters start being diminished by the ammount of money spent on the RMT shop, then the MMORPG lost its essence to me.
(NOTE: Snippage to keep the post readable and shorter, if I missed your basic premise forgive me.) Point 1: First, about your argument that MMORPGs are unfair in nature due to the existance of illegal RMT, etc...: yeah they exist, but for the purpose of discussing if pay to win RMT should be allowed/legalized/perpetuated/incentivated you cant start from that principle, because in one, people are banned if they are caught and in the other they arent. I disagree with you there and thats what base your defense of the RMT. If its forbidden you cant base off. Its a falacy. You cant count on something that is not certain. Legal RMT is certain, Illegal RMT, cheats/bots/hacks whatever is not. Point 2: Now, I want to discuss the second point, something more particular: Peoples time and effort spent are not equal. It was always like that in the history of MMORPGs. People inteligence levels are different as well, it was always like that. People experience in playing games, reflexes, social skills, organization, whatever traits you name it! They are all subjective, as time and effort also is. THOSE ARE WHAT MAKE LIFE UNBALANCED, THAT WHAT MAKES MMORPGS UNBALANCED. Its perfectly fine for some people to own others in the games, specially those who have spent more time and effort in the game, or those who understand the game mechanics, or those who have better organization, etc. People have different degrees of natural traits, and those are factors that determine success. Money is not one of them. What matters is what you are, not what you possess. Thats the natural order of power in the history of MMORPGs. Point 3: Hardcore people own casual people in games where time and effort spent is key, no matter how much money casuals or hardcores have. Thats what I believe. Thats how I see MMORPGs and thas how I want it to remain. Point 4: Legal RMT messes with my so called "natural order of power". It reduces my characteristics as a player to nothing but my wallet. I do have money, its just that using it defeats the purpose, it takes away my pleasure of feeling superior by whatever I achieve with my subjective "skills". RMT gives another "avenue" that shouldnt exist. Also, even in those games where time is the main factor, we shouldnt ignore (or replace or balance it with money) the importance of time. Time is what gives the chronological element to the progression and persistence of the world in Massive Multiplayer Games. If whatever people do progress and evolve their characters start being diminished by the ammount of money spent on the RMT shop, then the MMORPG lost its essence to me.
To clarify, I don't think MMOs aren't fair just because you can't stop RMT from occuring. MMOs aren't fair because it's impossible to make them fair without loosing what makes them attractive to most people. MMOs are never fair, ever. Not because people can cheat, but because they don't impose the same rules to the same people. If they were fair, and easy to make fair, you won't see the cycles of nerfs/buffs that happen in every game. You wouldn't see the illegal RMT. You wouldn't see twinking/PLing or whatever. Those are the symptoms of the face that by their nature, a MMO is not a competitive environment, it's an entertainment environment.
That's my arguement and you should see pretty clear consistency on it through my threads.
I will argue specific aspects and point out the symptoms only to illustrate the irony of some stances that have occured in this thread. One person suggested they would never play a game with any RMT in it. I suggested they weren't playing any games because they all have in, the difference is in who sponsors it. One person complained that it nulifies their achievements, I argued that there are so many other methods of nullifying they achievement that they really should look at why this one invalidates them and not the others. However, in all, I remain convinced that you can't balance an MMO, and it's ok because it's make believe fun. I play it to escape and have fun, nothing more.
I am playing for entertainment, not competition because that competition can't exist. So to me RMT is just like going to a movie. I'm using it to get more entertainment.
Now people have disagreed with that, and it's why we're rounding 300 posts, but that's the discussion at hand.
So to your specific points:
1. As long as trading exists in games the potential for twinking and PLing is there. Since every major game allows trades, there is already a legal method to circumvent any achievements you make. Every game has this, even if you discount the RMT portion that goes on. It's really no different if I pay a soul in China to get the uber sword, or if my guildy hands it to me. None. Yet throughout the discussion people are offended by the former and accept the later. I don't get that, and likely never will.
The same people that happily PL their toons and deck them out with uber gear from former characters or guildmates, seem to think that their methods are somehow more fair than me swiping my card and getting them in the same manner. It's just that I don't personally know the person working in China. Again, if you really are against RMT you should also not want to play games that allow trading, auction houses, or any method of transferring goods from one player to another.
2. Oh I agree that people have different traits and some will be better in a game than others. However, when the game places certain bariers to entry, then I have a problem. Four hour raiding content is one of the most common. I can't get what I need to play my entertainment because of an artifiicial barrier which has nothing to do with skill, intelligence, or anything more than a developer placed barrier.
Heck you might be a much worse player than me, but destroy me every time because I can't overcome an out of game barrier. Your arguement against money works the same for time because they are like comodities.
3. This is also likely quite true, although most hardcore people own causal people because their stats are so much better. Let's face it, in your typical MMO there is not a high degree of skill required. It's a glorified whack a mole where as long as you have the numbers to back you up, you will likely prevail. Sure there is some game knowledge and mechanics that come into play, but a hard core level 20 will die to a casual level 80 every time in WoW.
If money won't have a profound effect and hardcore players will still prevail, then there is little reason to ban money is there?
Frankly this is why I think most people are so upset about RMT in games. They want to be superior and hardcore. They want to crush people. It's a very human trait. They don't care that it's not even a close comparison of skill because they won. In far to many cases, you see posts proclaiming this. If the numbers start to become even, there is less crushing that goes on, which for your hardcore players is naturally hard to swallow.
4. My only problem with this is that in far to many games your subjective skills relates directly to the amount of free time you put into the game. It's not rocket science, get bigger numbers and you are better. Now some players can do more with their time, and there is a skill in doing that, but in general time=achievement, not skill=achievement in mmos.
Me: No...some people cant afford to pay extra. I know a few personally. They can barely afford the base subscription.
Similarly, not everyone has the time to PLing and twinking.
Sure they can. 1 hour to you is the same as 1 hour to me in the game. If we both play 8 hours in the game, we both get 8 hours worth of advancement. That is a level playing field.
But I may not necessarily have the money to spend on RMT, no matter how long I wait. Real life money is not a level playing field, because not everyone has the same income.
What are you talking about? Some people work 8 hours a day. Some takes two shift and work 12 hours a day. Some are students have all the free time. They don't necessarily have the same amount of time per week as you.
And $1 of you is the same $1 from anyone else. If you both spend $100 in the game, you both get $100 worth of advancement. It is a level playing field.
You may not necessarily have the money. Someone may not necessarily have the time. What is the difference?
Not everyone has the same income ... true.
Not everyone has the same amount of free time ... also true.
What is the difference?
You can put in 20 hours a week, I can put in 5. We meet next week and you are a 40 hour character and I am a 25 hour character. Yes, I can work for another three weeks to catch your 40, but then you're a 100 hour character.
Then you need to put in more time or he needs to put in less. The fact that you cant put in as much time as him doesnt make the game unfair. In the same way that it is not unfair in a marathon that some runners had more time to train than others.
Same with money. You need to put in more money or he needs to put in less. The fact that you cant put in as much mnoey as he doesn't make the game unfair. In the same way that it is not unfair in a poker game that some palyers had more starting money than others.
Time is an objective measure. Money is not. Thats why the two are not analogous.
What is not "objective" about money? Time is a resource. Money is a resource. Some people have more free time. Some have less. Some people have more money. Some have less.
Me: No...some people cant afford to pay extra. I know a few personally. They can barely afford the base subscription. Similarly, not everyone has the time to PLing and twinking. Sure they can. 1 hour to you is the same as 1 hour to me in the game. If we both play 8 hours in the game, we both get 8 hours worth of advancement. That is a level playing field. But I may not necessarily have the money to spend on RMT, no matter how long I wait. Real life money is not a level playing field, because not everyone has the same income. What are you talking about? Some people work 8 hours a day. Some takes two shift and work 12 hours a day. Some are students have all the free time. They don't necessarily have the same amount of time per week as you.
He's talking about doing quests and killing mobs for 8 hours.
If I play 8 hours doing that in one day, and you play 1 minute a month and take 5 years to play the 8 hours, we'll still have done the same exact content.
We will still both have gotten 8 hours of advancement for 8 hours of game play.
Me: No...some people cant afford to pay extra. I know a few personally. They can barely afford the base subscription. Similarly, not everyone has the time to PLing and twinking. Sure they can. 1 hour to you is the same as 1 hour to me in the game. If we both play 8 hours in the game, we both get 8 hours worth of advancement. That is a level playing field. But I may not necessarily have the money to spend on RMT, no matter how long I wait. Real life money is not a level playing field, because not everyone has the same income. What are you talking about? Some people work 8 hours a day. Some takes two shift and work 12 hours a day. Some are students have all the free time. They don't necessarily have the same amount of time per week as you.
He's talking about doing quests and killing mobs for 8 hours.
If I play 8 hours doing that in one day, and you play 1 minute a month and take 5 years to play the 8 hours, we'll still have done the same exact content.
We will still both have gotten 8 hours of advancement for 8 hours of game play.
But if it takes 5 years, you will have had the same hours of game play, but no entertainment, and it would have cost me 5 years worth of monthly subs. Or, I could just buy the sword, and start having my entertainment (which is why I play to begin with), and not waste all of the time. And amazingly, RMT just saved me money too! heheh
Me: Then why is he participating in a race with the guy? Why wouldnt he just run on his own? He participates because he wants to challenge himself. Why does he need to enter a race for that? The only reason to enter a formal race is to compete against others. He can "challenge" himself without the trappings of a race very easily and at his convenience. Likewise, someone who just wants to challenge themselves in a game could do so in a single player game...they dont need an MMO for that.
Most people don't enter a marathon with the delusion that they are going to 'win'. As a self-described "lazy ass", you're not a reliable source for the motivations of Marathon runners. You have no way of knowing that they dont believe they might win.
When was the last time you 'won' an MMO? When I defeated a gate camp in lowsec Gallente space about 6 weeks ago in Eve. They caught me by surprise and unprepared, but I still managed to escape and complete my mission.
Ok, go talk to the millions of people every year who enter marathons and other races, knowing full well that they will not "win". Is it just that hard for you to understand that other people might have different motives than you? That other people get their enjoyment in different ways?
And as a self described "lazy ass", I'm also smart enough to have developed my opinion based on talking to people who run (both physically and operationally) marathons.
Me: No...some people cant afford to pay extra. I know a few personally. They can barely afford the base subscription. Similarly, not everyone has the time to PLing and twinking. Sure they can. 1 hour to you is the same as 1 hour to me in the game. If we both play 8 hours in the game, we both get 8 hours worth of advancement. That is a level playing field. But I may not necessarily have the money to spend on RMT, no matter how long I wait. Real life money is not a level playing field, because not everyone has the same income. What are you talking about? Some people work 8 hours a day. Some takes two shift and work 12 hours a day. Some are students have all the free time. They don't necessarily have the same amount of time per week as you.
He's talking about doing quests and killing mobs for 8 hours.
If I play 8 hours doing that in one day, and you play 1 minute a month and take 5 years to play the 8 hours, we'll still have done the same exact content.
We will still both have gotten 8 hours of advancement for 8 hours of game play.
If I spend $100 buying that in one day, and you spend $1 a month and take 5 years to spend the $100, we'll still have buy the same exact content.
We will still both have gotten $100 of advancement for $100 of game play.
Me: No...some people cant afford to pay extra. I know a few personally. They can barely afford the base subscription. Similarly, not everyone has the time to PLing and twinking. Sure they can. 1 hour to you is the same as 1 hour to me in the game. If we both play 8 hours in the game, we both get 8 hours worth of advancement. That is a level playing field. But I may not necessarily have the money to spend on RMT, no matter how long I wait. Real life money is not a level playing field, because not everyone has the same income. What are you talking about? Some people work 8 hours a day. Some takes two shift and work 12 hours a day. Some are students have all the free time. They don't necessarily have the same amount of time per week as you.
He's talking about doing quests and killing mobs for 8 hours.
If I play 8 hours doing that in one day, and you play 1 minute a month and take 5 years to play the 8 hours, we'll still have done the same exact content.
We will still both have gotten 8 hours of advancement for 8 hours of game play.
If I spend $100 buying that in one day, and you spend $1 a month and take 5 years to spend the $100, we'll still have buy the same exact content.
We will still both have gotten $100 of advancement for $100 of game play.
But we haven't both gotten the same amount of enjoyment. We are buying entertainment, aren't we?
Me: No...some people cant afford to pay extra. I know a few personally. They can barely afford the base subscription. Similarly, not everyone has the time to PLing and twinking. Sure they can. 1 hour to you is the same as 1 hour to me in the game. If we both play 8 hours in the game, we both get 8 hours worth of advancement. That is a level playing field. But I may not necessarily have the money to spend on RMT, no matter how long I wait. Real life money is not a level playing field, because not everyone has the same income. What are you talking about? Some people work 8 hours a day. Some takes two shift and work 12 hours a day. Some are students have all the free time. They don't necessarily have the same amount of time per week as you.
He's talking about doing quests and killing mobs for 8 hours.
If I play 8 hours doing that in one day, and you play 1 minute a month and take 5 years to play the 8 hours, we'll still have done the same exact content.
We will still both have gotten 8 hours of advancement for 8 hours of game play.
If I spend $100 buying that in one day, and you spend $1 a month and take 5 years to spend the $100, we'll still have buy the same exact content.
We will still both have gotten $100 of advancement for $100 of game play.
And that would be fine if RMT games worked that way, but they don't.
They are a combination of grinding and money, so your comparison fails.
Me: No...some people cant afford to pay extra. I know a few personally. They can barely afford the base subscription. Similarly, not everyone has the time to PLing and twinking. Sure they can. 1 hour to you is the same as 1 hour to me in the game. If we both play 8 hours in the game, we both get 8 hours worth of advancement. That is a level playing field. But I may not necessarily have the money to spend on RMT, no matter how long I wait. Real life money is not a level playing field, because not everyone has the same income. What are you talking about? Some people work 8 hours a day. Some takes two shift and work 12 hours a day. Some are students have all the free time. They don't necessarily have the same amount of time per week as you.
He's talking about doing quests and killing mobs for 8 hours.
If I play 8 hours doing that in one day, and you play 1 minute a month and take 5 years to play the 8 hours, we'll still have done the same exact content.
We will still both have gotten 8 hours of advancement for 8 hours of game play.
But if it takes 5 years, you will have had the same hours of game play, but no entertainment, and it would have cost me 5 years worth of monthly subs. Or, I could just buy the sword, and start having my entertainment (which is why I play to begin with), and not waste all of the time. And amazingly, RMT just saved me money too! heheh
Except that if someone thinks RMT is unfair, and 3/4 of those responding to this poll do, then buying the sword destroys the entertainment value.
The "wasting of time" is only a waste, if RMT exists, otherwise it's not if you appreciate the content of the game. But the content is destroyed by adding RMT...
Except that if someone thinks RMT is unfair, and 3/4 of those responding to this poll do, then buying the sword destroys the entertainment value. The "wasting of time" is only a waste, if RMT exists, otherwise it's not if you appreciate the content of the game. But the content is destroyed by adding RMT...
To start, this "buying the sword" example is a fallacy. The onus is on you to provide proof that this is the norm in RMT and so far no one has done that yet.
But then you go on to say that buying items destroys the entertainment value. Who does it destroy the value for?
The buyer? The person bought it to enhance the entertainment value of the game, so it's not him.
The person who vhose not to buy any items? How and where does it affect that person's gameplay? In a PvE game, nothing you do affects the next person, so could you explain how it affects this person? In a PvP game, the norm is that item malls do not create an imbalance. Why? Because then no one would play the game.
You are saying there is an imbalance and it is unfair. Without data or examples to back that, especially with the scanrios that the anti-RMT people are presenting, it seems like a lot of the ground you're standing on is a foundation of myth and misinformation.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Except that if someone thinks RMT is unfair, and 3/4 of those responding to this poll do, then buying the sword destroys the entertainment value. The "wasting of time" is only a waste, if RMT exists, otherwise it's not if you appreciate the content of the game. But the content is destroyed by adding RMT...
To start, this "buying the sword" example is a fallacy. The onus is on you to provide proof that this is the norm in RMT and so far no one has done that yet.
But then you go on to say that buying items destroys the entertainment value. Who does it destroy the value for?
The buyer? The person bought it to enhance the entertainment value of the game, so it's not him.
The person who vhose not to buy any items? How and where does it affect that person's gameplay? In a PvE game, nothing you do affects the next person, so could you explain how it affects this person? In a PvP game, the norm is that item malls do not create an imbalance. Why? Because then no one would play the game.
You are saying there is an imbalance and it is unfair. Without data or examples to back that, especially with the scanrios that the anti-RMT people are presenting, it seems like a lot of the ground you're standing on is a foundation of myth and misinformation.
It effects his gameplay because he has no self control. If there is an option to buy the sword, he will have no choice but to go out and buy it instead of enjoying all of the fun grinding. And because of his lack of self control, the rest of us will need to cater our gameplay to his.
Ok, go talk to the millions of people every year who enter marathons and other races, knowing full well that they will not "win".
I've spoken to several so far, and I have yet to find one who doesnt care about where he finishes. They all would like to win, or at least place as high as they can.
But even if I didnt know any of them, it seems like common sense to me that anyone entering a formal race would care about winning. Otherwise, what is the point of participating?
Is it just that hard for you to understand that other people might have different motives than you?
Based on what I have seen so far, I do not believe the motives of a majority of MMO players differ from mine.
And as a self described "lazy ass", I'm also smart enough to have developed my opinion based on talking to people who run (both physically and operationally) marathons.
Yeah, you're a "lzay ass" but somehow surrounded by millions of marathon running friends. Got it.
It effects his gameplay because he has no self control. If there is an option to buy the sword, he will have no choice but to go out and buy it instead of enjoying all of the fun grinding. And because of his lack of self control, the rest of us will need to cater our gameplay to his.
Yeah, pretty much. And I agree with him.
If you want RMT, feel free to go play them. No one is stopping you. But I dont think mainstream MMOs will cater to you (unless your're living in Asia), because you're not the majority.
Ok, go talk to the millions of people every year who enter marathons and other races, knowing full well that they will not "win". I've spoken to several so far, and I have yet to find one who doesnt care about where he finishes. They all would like to win, or at least place as high as they can. But even if I didnt know any of them, it seems like common sense to me that anyone entering a formal race would care about winning. Otherwise, what is the point of participating?
Is it just that hard for you to understand that other people might have different motives than you? Based on what I have seen so far, I do not believe the motives of a majority of MMO players differ from mine.
And as a self described "lazy ass", I'm also smart enough to have developed my opinion based on talking to people who run (both physically and operationally) marathons. Yeah, you're a "lzay ass" but somehow surrounded by millions of marathon running friends. Got it.
This far into the argument, and now you want to bring common sense into it?
These people are entering the race for a personal sense of accomplishment. They're not worried about coming in 1st, or 50th, if anything they are trying to beat a personal time, or some other goal set for them. Again, this just shows that you lack the ability comprehend the motives of others (notice I'm not just talking about MMO players, but humanity in general) if they happen to differ from your own.
I run marathons vicariously. It's much easier, and I don't have to sweat.
It effects his gameplay because he has no self control. If there is an option to buy the sword, he will have no choice but to go out and buy it instead of enjoying all of the fun grinding. And because of his lack of self control, the rest of us will need to cater our gameplay to his. Yeah, pretty much. And I agree with him. If you want RMT, feel free to go play them. No one is stopping you. But I dont think mainstream MMOs will cater to you (unless your're living in Asia), because you're not the majority.
You saying that I'm not the majority will not make it so, no matter how many times you keep typing it. But you're more than welcome to continue to do that... seems like too much of a grind for my tastes though
Let's not use common sense though, and not look at the fact that when I face you in a game, you have no idea how I got my sword, through grinding or a cash shop, so you're really going to have to go to some effort in order to let my gameplay ruin yours.
These people are entering the race for a personal sense of accomplishment. If they are not competing, what exactly are they accomplishing that they could not already do before entering the race?
Again, this just shows that you lack the ability comprehend the motives of others Hey pot, it.s me, kettle.
I run marathons vicariously. That is the most unintentionally funny statement I have seen in this forum so far.
I have no problem understanding the motives of others. But there is a clear difference between empathy and sympathy. I understand (empathy), but I don't care (sympathy).
For the majority of marathon runners, they are there to be part of a community, to perhaps do better than they did last time, or just prove they can do it. You see, people are different. They have their own thoughts and feelings, and therefor they all have different motivations for doing things. It's kinda weird.
Such a long debate about something that simply is part of mmo's and will play even a bigger role in the future. You can change nothing about it so you better get used to it.
He's talking about doing quests and killing mobs for 8 hours. If I play 8 hours doing that in one day, and you play 1 minute a month and take 5 years to play the 8 hours, we'll still have done the same exact content. We will still both have gotten 8 hours of advancement for 8 hours of game play.
That is doubtful, since time in games is measured both as a total and also for a sitting. If I play 1 minute a month, I'll never equal anything you did in one 8 hour sitting. You could do a raid, quests, or whatever. I can log in, kill a mob or two and log out. Developers place artificial time barriers into their games for varrious reasons, some out of ignorance, some for lack of better content.
If there are objects that can only be achieved in a single sitting of four hours (IE a typical raid) then I may be forever excluded from seeing any content beyond that point. If my window is 1-2 hours a sitting, it doesn't matter how many sittings I have, I'll never get there. So your time analogy has to account for those barriers as well.
If my interest in the game is the PvP at the end, I may never get to do it. It would be in the developers best interest, and therefore your best interest to find a way for me to do so. RMT is a very convienient method of legalizing the stupid hoops that people have to jump through to play the parts of a game they want too.
Twinking, PLing, Illegal RMT, all of those are in response to the barriers that people see in front of their entertainment.
Comments
That's the example I was waiting for.
The issue there isn't RMT but a unique (IMO, poor) use of it. Your argument is based solely on the extreme exception and not the norm.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
"how do you feel about RMT?"
I use to be an anti- RMT crusader. It's painfully clear we lost that battle a couple of years ago.
RMT has been around for over a decade and there is nothing new about it except the companies themselves have gotten tired of loosing out on all that revenue companies like I*E have been raking in for the last 5 or 6 years.
It was a matter of time before it came to this and frankly I'm surprised it took so long for Corp greed to kick in.
The best we can hope for is that a F2P / Premium monthly sub model like DDO is trying becomes the norm. Worse case you end up with SOE type games with monthly subs AND RMT.
This repply is to bsstrip.
First, about your argument that MMORPGs are unfair in nature due to the existance of illegal RMT, etc...:
illegal RMT exist, cheating and botting exist, chinese gold farmers, whatever... yeah they exist, but for the purpose of discussing if pay to win RMT should be allowed/legalized/perpetuated/incentivated you cant start from that principle, because in one, people are banned if they are caught and in the other they arent.
It also doesnt matter if the gameguard/hackshields of life cant prevent anything either. Even aion have bots already, Darkfall had hacks in the first day, but you cant argument that if those are possible then legal RMT should be too.
I disagree with you there and thats what base your defense of the RMT.
If its forbidden you cant base off. Its a falacy. You cant count on something that is not certain. Legal RMT is certain, Illegal RMT, cheats/bots/hacks whatever is not.
If most companies sucks at preventing those, it doesnt make its existance certain to the point where you can count them to be there, thus allowing the ridiculous feat of making legal RMT, ok. (They are not ok, they are pay to win money scams)
Now, I want to discuss the second point, something more particular:
Peoples time and effort spent are not equal. It was always like that in the history of MMORPGs.
People inteligence levels are different as well, it was always like that. People experience in playing games, reflexes, social skills, organization, whatever traits you name it! They are all subjective, as time and effort also is. THOSE ARE WHAT MAKE LIFE UNBALANCED, THAT WHAT MAKES MMORPGS UNBALANCED.
Its perfectly fine for some people to own others in the games, specially those who have spent more time and effort in the game, or those who understand the game mechanics, or those who have better organization, etc.
People have different degrees of natural traits, and those are factors that determine success. Money is not one of them.
What matters is what you are, not what you possess.
Thats the natural order of power in the history of MMORPGs.
Hardcore people own casual people in games where time and effort spent is key, no matter how much money casuals or hardcores have.
Thats what I believe. Thats how I see MMORPGs and thas how I want it to remain.
Legal RMT messes with my so called "natural order of power". It reduces my characteristics as a player to nothing but my wallet. I do have money, its just that using it defeats the purpose, it takes away my pleasure of feeling superior by whatever I achieve with my subjective "skills".
RMT gives another "avenue" that shouldnt exist.
I recognize that when games are so bland that the only big factor is "time" spent, it becomes a matter of who is more "no-lifer" and there is no reason to be proud of that. Im old school, I grew and I dont have the same ammount of "grinding" time as I did back in the day. I dont think we should be fighting for balancing time with money.
My fight is that money is being used not only to balance time, but balance everything individual skill/trait/characteristic of the player.
Also, even in those games where time is the main factor, we shouldnt ignore (or replace or balance it with money) the importance of time. Time is what gives the chronological element to the progression and persistence of the world in Massive Multiplayer Games.
If whatever people do progress and evolve their characters start being diminished by the ammount of money spent on the RMT shop, then the MMORPG lost its essence to me.
To clarify, I don't think MMOs aren't fair just because you can't stop RMT from occuring. MMOs aren't fair because it's impossible to make them fair without loosing what makes them attractive to most people. MMOs are never fair, ever. Not because people can cheat, but because they don't impose the same rules to the same people. If they were fair, and easy to make fair, you won't see the cycles of nerfs/buffs that happen in every game. You wouldn't see the illegal RMT. You wouldn't see twinking/PLing or whatever. Those are the symptoms of the face that by their nature, a MMO is not a competitive environment, it's an entertainment environment.
That's my arguement and you should see pretty clear consistency on it through my threads.
I will argue specific aspects and point out the symptoms only to illustrate the irony of some stances that have occured in this thread. One person suggested they would never play a game with any RMT in it. I suggested they weren't playing any games because they all have in, the difference is in who sponsors it. One person complained that it nulifies their achievements, I argued that there are so many other methods of nullifying they achievement that they really should look at why this one invalidates them and not the others. However, in all, I remain convinced that you can't balance an MMO, and it's ok because it's make believe fun. I play it to escape and have fun, nothing more.
I am playing for entertainment, not competition because that competition can't exist. So to me RMT is just like going to a movie. I'm using it to get more entertainment.
Now people have disagreed with that, and it's why we're rounding 300 posts, but that's the discussion at hand.
So to your specific points:
1. As long as trading exists in games the potential for twinking and PLing is there. Since every major game allows trades, there is already a legal method to circumvent any achievements you make. Every game has this, even if you discount the RMT portion that goes on. It's really no different if I pay a soul in China to get the uber sword, or if my guildy hands it to me. None. Yet throughout the discussion people are offended by the former and accept the later. I don't get that, and likely never will.
The same people that happily PL their toons and deck them out with uber gear from former characters or guildmates, seem to think that their methods are somehow more fair than me swiping my card and getting them in the same manner. It's just that I don't personally know the person working in China. Again, if you really are against RMT you should also not want to play games that allow trading, auction houses, or any method of transferring goods from one player to another.
2. Oh I agree that people have different traits and some will be better in a game than others. However, when the game places certain bariers to entry, then I have a problem. Four hour raiding content is one of the most common. I can't get what I need to play my entertainment because of an artifiicial barrier which has nothing to do with skill, intelligence, or anything more than a developer placed barrier.
Heck you might be a much worse player than me, but destroy me every time because I can't overcome an out of game barrier. Your arguement against money works the same for time because they are like comodities.
3. This is also likely quite true, although most hardcore people own causal people because their stats are so much better. Let's face it, in your typical MMO there is not a high degree of skill required. It's a glorified whack a mole where as long as you have the numbers to back you up, you will likely prevail. Sure there is some game knowledge and mechanics that come into play, but a hard core level 20 will die to a casual level 80 every time in WoW.
If money won't have a profound effect and hardcore players will still prevail, then there is little reason to ban money is there?
Frankly this is why I think most people are so upset about RMT in games. They want to be superior and hardcore. They want to crush people. It's a very human trait. They don't care that it's not even a close comparison of skill because they won. In far to many cases, you see posts proclaiming this. If the numbers start to become even, there is less crushing that goes on, which for your hardcore players is naturally hard to swallow.
4. My only problem with this is that in far to many games your subjective skills relates directly to the amount of free time you put into the game. It's not rocket science, get bigger numbers and you are better. Now some players can do more with their time, and there is a skill in doing that, but in general time=achievement, not skill=achievement in mmos.
Me: No...some people cant afford to pay extra. I know a few personally. They can barely afford the base subscription.
Similarly, not everyone has the time to PLing and twinking.
Sure they can. 1 hour to you is the same as 1 hour to me in the game. If we both play 8 hours in the game, we both get 8 hours worth of advancement. That is a level playing field.
But I may not necessarily have the money to spend on RMT, no matter how long I wait. Real life money is not a level playing field, because not everyone has the same income.
What are you talking about? Some people work 8 hours a day. Some takes two shift and work 12 hours a day. Some are students have all the free time. They don't necessarily have the same amount of time per week as you.
And $1 of you is the same $1 from anyone else. If you both spend $100 in the game, you both get $100 worth of advancement. It is a level playing field.
You may not necessarily have the money. Someone may not necessarily have the time. What is the difference?
Not everyone has the same income ... true.
Not everyone has the same amount of free time ... also true.
What is the difference?
You can put in 20 hours a week, I can put in 5. We meet next week and you are a 40 hour character and I am a 25 hour character. Yes, I can work for another three weeks to catch your 40, but then you're a 100 hour character.
Then you need to put in more time or he needs to put in less. The fact that you cant put in as much time as him doesnt make the game unfair. In the same way that it is not unfair in a marathon that some runners had more time to train than others.
Same with money. You need to put in more money or he needs to put in less. The fact that you cant put in as much mnoey as he doesn't make the game unfair. In the same way that it is not unfair in a poker game that some palyers had more starting money than others.
Time is an objective measure. Money is not. Thats why the two are not analogous.
What is not "objective" about money? Time is a resource. Money is a resource. Some people have more free time. Some have less. Some people have more money. Some have less.
He's talking about doing quests and killing mobs for 8 hours.
If I play 8 hours doing that in one day, and you play 1 minute a month and take 5 years to play the 8 hours, we'll still have done the same exact content.
We will still both have gotten 8 hours of advancement for 8 hours of game play.
He's talking about doing quests and killing mobs for 8 hours.
If I play 8 hours doing that in one day, and you play 1 minute a month and take 5 years to play the 8 hours, we'll still have done the same exact content.
We will still both have gotten 8 hours of advancement for 8 hours of game play.
But if it takes 5 years, you will have had the same hours of game play, but no entertainment, and it would have cost me 5 years worth of monthly subs. Or, I could just buy the sword, and start having my entertainment (which is why I play to begin with), and not waste all of the time. And amazingly, RMT just saved me money too! heheh
Ok, go talk to the millions of people every year who enter marathons and other races, knowing full well that they will not "win". Is it just that hard for you to understand that other people might have different motives than you? That other people get their enjoyment in different ways?
And as a self described "lazy ass", I'm also smart enough to have developed my opinion based on talking to people who run (both physically and operationally) marathons.
He's talking about doing quests and killing mobs for 8 hours.
If I play 8 hours doing that in one day, and you play 1 minute a month and take 5 years to play the 8 hours, we'll still have done the same exact content.
We will still both have gotten 8 hours of advancement for 8 hours of game play.
If I spend $100 buying that in one day, and you spend $1 a month and take 5 years to spend the $100, we'll still have buy the same exact content.
We will still both have gotten $100 of advancement for $100 of game play.
He's talking about doing quests and killing mobs for 8 hours.
If I play 8 hours doing that in one day, and you play 1 minute a month and take 5 years to play the 8 hours, we'll still have done the same exact content.
We will still both have gotten 8 hours of advancement for 8 hours of game play.
If I spend $100 buying that in one day, and you spend $1 a month and take 5 years to spend the $100, we'll still have buy the same exact content.
We will still both have gotten $100 of advancement for $100 of game play.
But we haven't both gotten the same amount of enjoyment. We are buying entertainment, aren't we?
He's talking about doing quests and killing mobs for 8 hours.
If I play 8 hours doing that in one day, and you play 1 minute a month and take 5 years to play the 8 hours, we'll still have done the same exact content.
We will still both have gotten 8 hours of advancement for 8 hours of game play.
If I spend $100 buying that in one day, and you spend $1 a month and take 5 years to spend the $100, we'll still have buy the same exact content.
We will still both have gotten $100 of advancement for $100 of game play.
And that would be fine if RMT games worked that way, but they don't.
They are a combination of grinding and money, so your comparison fails.
He's talking about doing quests and killing mobs for 8 hours.
If I play 8 hours doing that in one day, and you play 1 minute a month and take 5 years to play the 8 hours, we'll still have done the same exact content.
We will still both have gotten 8 hours of advancement for 8 hours of game play.
But if it takes 5 years, you will have had the same hours of game play, but no entertainment, and it would have cost me 5 years worth of monthly subs. Or, I could just buy the sword, and start having my entertainment (which is why I play to begin with), and not waste all of the time. And amazingly, RMT just saved me money too! heheh
Except that if someone thinks RMT is unfair, and 3/4 of those responding to this poll do, then buying the sword destroys the entertainment value.
The "wasting of time" is only a waste, if RMT exists, otherwise it's not if you appreciate the content of the game. But the content is destroyed by adding RMT...
To start, this "buying the sword" example is a fallacy. The onus is on you to provide proof that this is the norm in RMT and so far no one has done that yet.
But then you go on to say that buying items destroys the entertainment value. Who does it destroy the value for?
The buyer? The person bought it to enhance the entertainment value of the game, so it's not him.
The person who vhose not to buy any items? How and where does it affect that person's gameplay? In a PvE game, nothing you do affects the next person, so could you explain how it affects this person? In a PvP game, the norm is that item malls do not create an imbalance. Why? Because then no one would play the game.
You are saying there is an imbalance and it is unfair. Without data or examples to back that, especially with the scanrios that the anti-RMT people are presenting, it seems like a lot of the ground you're standing on is a foundation of myth and misinformation.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
To start, this "buying the sword" example is a fallacy. The onus is on you to provide proof that this is the norm in RMT and so far no one has done that yet.
But then you go on to say that buying items destroys the entertainment value. Who does it destroy the value for?
The buyer? The person bought it to enhance the entertainment value of the game, so it's not him.
The person who vhose not to buy any items? How and where does it affect that person's gameplay? In a PvE game, nothing you do affects the next person, so could you explain how it affects this person? In a PvP game, the norm is that item malls do not create an imbalance. Why? Because then no one would play the game.
You are saying there is an imbalance and it is unfair. Without data or examples to back that, especially with the scanrios that the anti-RMT people are presenting, it seems like a lot of the ground you're standing on is a foundation of myth and misinformation.
It effects his gameplay because he has no self control. If there is an option to buy the sword, he will have no choice but to go out and buy it instead of enjoying all of the fun grinding. And because of his lack of self control, the rest of us will need to cater our gameplay to his.
Ok, go talk to the millions of people every year who enter marathons and other races, knowing full well that they will not "win".
I've spoken to several so far, and I have yet to find one who doesnt care about where he finishes. They all would like to win, or at least place as high as they can.
But even if I didnt know any of them, it seems like common sense to me that anyone entering a formal race would care about winning. Otherwise, what is the point of participating?
Is it just that hard for you to understand that other people might have different motives than you?
Based on what I have seen so far, I do not believe the motives of a majority of MMO players differ from mine.
And as a self described "lazy ass", I'm also smart enough to have developed my opinion based on talking to people who run (both physically and operationally) marathons.
Yeah, you're a "lzay ass" but somehow surrounded by millions of marathon running friends. Got it.
It effects his gameplay because he has no self control. If there is an option to buy the sword, he will have no choice but to go out and buy it instead of enjoying all of the fun grinding. And because of his lack of self control, the rest of us will need to cater our gameplay to his.
Yeah, pretty much. And I agree with him.
If you want RMT, feel free to go play them. No one is stopping you. But I dont think mainstream MMOs will cater to you (unless your're living in Asia), because you're not the majority.
This far into the argument, and now you want to bring common sense into it?
These people are entering the race for a personal sense of accomplishment. They're not worried about coming in 1st, or 50th, if anything they are trying to beat a personal time, or some other goal set for them. Again, this just shows that you lack the ability comprehend the motives of others (notice I'm not just talking about MMO players, but humanity in general) if they happen to differ from your own.
I run marathons vicariously. It's much easier, and I don't have to sweat.
You saying that I'm not the majority will not make it so, no matter how many times you keep typing it. But you're more than welcome to continue to do that... seems like too much of a grind for my tastes though
Let's not use common sense though, and not look at the fact that when I face you in a game, you have no idea how I got my sword, through grinding or a cash shop, so you're really going to have to go to some effort in order to let my gameplay ruin yours.
These people are entering the race for a personal sense of accomplishment.
If they are not competing, what exactly are they accomplishing that they could not already do before entering the race?
Again, this just shows that you lack the ability comprehend the motives of others
Hey pot, it.s me, kettle.
I run marathons vicariously.
That is the most unintentionally funny statement I have seen in this forum so far.
You saying that I'm not the majority will not make it so
It seems to work for you. Why wouldnt it work for me?
I have no problem understanding the motives of others. But there is a clear difference between empathy and sympathy. I understand (empathy), but I don't care (sympathy).
For the majority of marathon runners, they are there to be part of a community, to perhaps do better than they did last time, or just prove they can do it. You see, people are different. They have their own thoughts and feelings, and therefor they all have different motivations for doing things. It's kinda weird.
Truth is universal. Neither of us makes it so by saying it. It just so happens that by saying it, I am correct, and you are incorrect.
But that doesn't mean you're not a good person
Such a long debate about something that simply is part of mmo's and will play even a bigger role in the future. You can change nothing about it so you better get used to it.
That is doubtful, since time in games is measured both as a total and also for a sitting. If I play 1 minute a month, I'll never equal anything you did in one 8 hour sitting. You could do a raid, quests, or whatever. I can log in, kill a mob or two and log out. Developers place artificial time barriers into their games for varrious reasons, some out of ignorance, some for lack of better content.
If there are objects that can only be achieved in a single sitting of four hours (IE a typical raid) then I may be forever excluded from seeing any content beyond that point. If my window is 1-2 hours a sitting, it doesn't matter how many sittings I have, I'll never get there. So your time analogy has to account for those barriers as well.
If my interest in the game is the PvP at the end, I may never get to do it. It would be in the developers best interest, and therefore your best interest to find a way for me to do so. RMT is a very convienient method of legalizing the stupid hoops that people have to jump through to play the parts of a game they want too.
Twinking, PLing, Illegal RMT, all of those are in response to the barriers that people see in front of their entertainment.
Truth is universal. Neither of us makes it so by saying it. It just so happens that by saying it, I am correct, and you are incorrect.
..and we should just take your word for it that you are correct. Uh huh.