Twinking, PLing, Illegal RMT, all of those are in response to the barriers that people see in front of their entertainment.
But they also impact my entertainment. So who's entertainment should take priority?
MMO companies are going to go with whatever will bring them the largest revenue stream. If this poll is and accurate representation of the MMO community, RMT would result in a loss of revenue for them.
Twinking and power levelling are gray areas, because many people dont have a problem with them since everyone can do it. It costs no money.
Except that if someone thinks RMT is unfair, and 3/4 of those responding to this poll do, then buying the sword destroys the entertainment value. The "wasting of time" is only a waste, if RMT exists, otherwise it's not if you appreciate the content of the game. But the content is destroyed by adding RMT...
To start, this "buying the sword" example is a fallacy. The onus is on you to provide proof that this is the norm in RMT and so far no one has done that yet.
But then you go on to say that buying items destroys the entertainment value. Who does it destroy the value for?
The buyer? The person bought it to enhance the entertainment value of the game, so it's not him.
The person who vhose not to buy any items? How and where does it affect that person's gameplay? In a PvE game, nothing you do affects the next person, so could you explain how it affects this person? In a PvP game, the norm is that item malls do not create an imbalance. Why? Because then no one would play the game.
You are saying there is an imbalance and it is unfair. Without data or examples to back that, especially with the scanrios that the anti-RMT people are presenting, it seems like a lot of the ground you're standing on is a foundation of myth and misinformation.
Swords, xp potions, whatever. I didn't make the claim about the sword, so I can't defend it.
RMT destroys the fun of the game for those that believe it is not fair, pretty my 3/4 of those polled here.
Obviously RMT doesn't affect people that play RMT games and think they are fun.
It is not true that in a PvE game nothing you do affects the next person. Some examples are killing all the mobs in an area, selling items, giving items away so there is item inflation, and players will naturally compare thier characters against others, and share information. Where did you get that sword, should I get the gold shield next or the boots of speed? Players will affect each others perceptions of which items are good in the game, whether that can be proven statistically or not, and which character builds are better, etc.
PvE in a Massive game does not exist in a vacuum.
You can argue against the people claiming you can buy uber items in an RMT game. That is not my claim. I am saying ANY item sold for RMT unbalances the game so that I would not want to play it.
Be it a hat with one point of mana bonus, or a potion of xp boost, or a rock.
I am simply saying that from my perspective, if items can be earned by grinding mobs, quests, or paying for them, this is unfair since the dollar amount can never exactly equal the value of grinding or questing. Therefore, there is an arbitrary, subjective figure used, which cannot be "fair", since fair requires the measure to be objective, and not arbitrary.
Also, that the fact that I can buy an xp boost, devalues the quests and mobs I grind, which is what destroyes the game for me.
If you get a 10% xp boost, then the mobs I grind are now devalued, from my perspective, by 10%. If I buy the boost so the mobs will no longer be devalued, then I lose the content of grinding them. Either way, game destroyed for me.
Except that if someone thinks RMT is unfair, and 3/4 of those responding to this poll do, then buying the sword destroys the entertainment value. The "wasting of time" is only a waste, if RMT exists, otherwise it's not if you appreciate the content of the game. But the content is destroyed by adding RMT...
To start, this "buying the sword" example is a fallacy. The onus is on you to provide proof that this is the norm in RMT and so far no one has done that yet.
But then you go on to say that buying items destroys the entertainment value. Who does it destroy the value for?
The buyer? The person bought it to enhance the entertainment value of the game, so it's not him.
The person who vhose not to buy any items? How and where does it affect that person's gameplay? In a PvE game, nothing you do affects the next person, so could you explain how it affects this person? In a PvP game, the norm is that item malls do not create an imbalance. Why? Because then no one would play the game.
You are saying there is an imbalance and it is unfair. Without data or examples to back that, especially with the scanrios that the anti-RMT people are presenting, it seems like a lot of the ground you're standing on is a foundation of myth and misinformation.
It effects his gameplay because he has no self control. If there is an option to buy the sword, he will have no choice but to go out and buy it instead of enjoying all of the fun grinding. And because of his lack of self control, the rest of us will need to cater our gameplay to his.
This makes no sense.
How is self control related to not playing a game at it's full potential?
You're asking me to purposely suck at the game, and if I don't, that's because I lack self control? How so?
You lack the self control to play the game like a retard. What?
Swords, xp potions, whatever. I didn't make the claim about the sword, so I can't defend it. RMT destroys the fun of the game for those that believe it is not fair, pretty my 3/4 of those polled here. Obviously RMT doesn't affect people that play RMT games and think they are fun. It is not true that in a PvE game nothing you do affects the next person. Some examples are killing all the mobs in an area, selling items, giving items away so there is item inflation, and players will naturally compare thier characters against others, and share information. Where did you get that sword, should I get the gold shield next or the boots of speed? Players will affect each others perceptions of which items are good in the game, whether that can be proven statistically or not, and which character builds are better, etc. PvE in a Massive game does not exist in a vacuum. You can argue against the people claiming you can buy uber items in an RMT game. That is not my claim. I am saying ANY item sold for RMT unbalances the game so that I would not want to play it. Be it a hat with one point of mana bonus, or a potion of xp boost, or a rock. I am simply saying that from my perspective, if items can be earned by grinding mobs, quests, or paying for them, this is unfair since the dollar amount can never exactly equal the value of grinding or questing. Therefore, there is an arbitrary, subjective figure used, which cannot be "fair", since fair requires the measure to be objective, and not arbitrary. Also, that the fact that I can buy an xp boost, devalues the quests and mobs I grind, which is what destroyes the game for me. If you get a 10% xp boost, then the mobs I grind are now devalued, from my perspective, by 10%. If I buy the boost so the mobs will no longer be devalued, then I lose the content of grinding them. Either way, game destroyed for me.
Yeah, we can toss out RMT in an RMT game, since I don't think anyone is really debating that point. The encroachment of RMT into the P2P model is what is being debated.
Ok to simplify things.
What is the part that affects you, the acquisition of the item or the method of acquisition? Because if it's the method, than the item itself can't be all that important. From a gameplay perspective there is no difference whether I have killed 10 mobs, had my friend give it to me, or legally bought it with cash. The gameplay perspective is that I have the item.
That is what you are comparing against. How many XPs do I have, which gear did I get. You are not comparing how long it took me to get the sword, or how I did it. Just that I have it.
Now if your logic is to be followed, when my friend hands me their sword, your game is destroyed because I did not work for that sword.
See there are so many ways to devalue your time. All of them are in the game and many of them are totally legal and apparently accepted if typical guild behavior is believed. If you are playing the most efficient way, you will get twinked and PLed and never see any of the game. That is the most efficient way to play nearly every MMO out there. That is, if stats are the measure of why you are playing.
Mind you this makes sense, because the culture of MMOs is rampant with PL/twinked characters. Why, because I really don't care about the content. I'm there for the shiny numbers and the "badass avatar" (I love that phrase, thank you ArcAngel). As for how this occurred, well players are to blame for making an entertainment medium into a competition, devs are to blame for some really grindy and lame content that people are willing to go to extreme lengths to avoid; legal and illegal.
RMT ceases to be an issue when the game is fun enough that the participants play it for the sake of playing it, not for the slighlty odd one upsmanship that seems to have taken root. Of course, at the moment, I might as well wish for the moon as well...
Truth is universal. Neither of us makes it so by saying it. It just so happens that by saying it, I am correct, and you are incorrect. ..and we should just take your word for it that you are correct. Uh huh.
Of course not. I've stated several times that you are more than welcome to do some simple research. I also stated that I'm not going to do it for you.
This makes no sense. How is self control related to not playing a game at it's full potential? You're asking me to purposely suck at the game, and if I don't, that's because I lack self control? How so? You lack the self control to play the game like a retard. What?
You're back to the measure and worth (and as such, the value of time spent) of an MMO being only the speed and efficiency of leveling.
This is so soiidly reinforced in your contention that the person who is not buying the XP boost "sucks" at playing the MMO. In that same regard, the person that logs in to do anything but leveling "sucks" at playing the MMO because he is not maximizing the rate at which he gains XP.
You said earlier in the thread that you don't like the XP boosts for sale in an MMO because you would not be able to NOT buy them and that is where he is getting the 'self control' comment from. That was the core of your argument a few pages back, no?
Here's your argument as far as I can tell, and I would like you to tell me which line I am getting incorrect.
- You feel that not buying xp boosts and buffs is not playing the game to its full potential
- You feel that by NOT buying items in a F2P MMO you are choosing to make the game artificially harder for yourself and doing nothing more than gimping yourself for no reason.
- You feel that all MMOs are a competition between players
- You feel that if another player can skip content, then that is unfair to you
- You feel that everyone does have equal time and that those who say they do not are lying
If these are true, then the problem isn't that RMT isn't fair, rather that you create a self-imposed competition betwen you and other players that doesn't really exist. Due to the personal rules that you have set for this metagame you are playing, the mere thought that another person may have bought an item or potion from an item mall (because you have no way of knowing how they got to their level or rank or whatever) is enough to deem the entire system unfair and something that ruins the game not just for you, but for everyone.
Am I right or wrong?
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Except that if someone thinks RMT is unfair, and 3/4 of those responding to this poll do, then buying the sword destroys the entertainment value. The "wasting of time" is only a waste, if RMT exists, otherwise it's not if you appreciate the content of the game. But the content is destroyed by adding RMT...
To start, this "buying the sword" example is a fallacy. The onus is on you to provide proof that this is the norm in RMT and so far no one has done that yet.
But then you go on to say that buying items destroys the entertainment value. Who does it destroy the value for?
The buyer? The person bought it to enhance the entertainment value of the game, so it's not him.
The person who vhose not to buy any items? How and where does it affect that person's gameplay? In a PvE game, nothing you do affects the next person, so could you explain how it affects this person? In a PvP game, the norm is that item malls do not create an imbalance. Why? Because then no one would play the game.
You are saying there is an imbalance and it is unfair. Without data or examples to back that, especially with the scanrios that the anti-RMT people are presenting, it seems like a lot of the ground you're standing on is a foundation of myth and misinformation.
It effects his gameplay because he has no self control. If there is an option to buy the sword, he will have no choice but to go out and buy it instead of enjoying all of the fun grinding. And because of his lack of self control, the rest of us will need to cater our gameplay to his.
This makes no sense.
How is self control related to not playing a game at it's full potential?
You're asking me to purposely suck at the game, and if I don't, that's because I lack self control? How so?
You lack the self control to play the game like a retard. What?
You get to CHOOSE to grind or CHOOSE to buy an item. Choice is a wonderful thing. You get to decide how much money your time is worth. As you have a limited supply of money, you also get to choose which items to buy and which to grind for.
Of course, in your case you seem more bent on choosing how others must play.
Me: No...some people cant afford to pay extra. I know a few personally. They can barely afford the base subscription. Similarly, not everyone has the time to PLing and twinking. Sure they can. 1 hour to you is the same as 1 hour to me in the game. If we both play 8 hours in the game, we both get 8 hours worth of advancement. That is a level playing field. But I may not necessarily have the money to spend on RMT, no matter how long I wait. Real life money is not a level playing field, because not everyone has the same income. What are you talking about? Some people work 8 hours a day. Some takes two shift and work 12 hours a day. Some are students have all the free time. They don't necessarily have the same amount of time per week as you.
He's talking about doing quests and killing mobs for 8 hours.
If I play 8 hours doing that in one day, and you play 1 minute a month and take 5 years to play the 8 hours, we'll still have done the same exact content.
We will still both have gotten 8 hours of advancement for 8 hours of game play.
If I spend $100 buying that in one day, and you spend $1 a month and take 5 years to spend the $100, we'll still have buy the same exact content.
We will still both have gotten $100 of advancement for $100 of game play.
But we haven't both gotten the same amount of enjoyment. We are buying entertainment, aren't we?
Ane we haven't both gotten the same amount of enjoyment, if you can grind 8 hrs a day and i can only grind 1 hr a day. What is the difference?
Swords, xp potions, whatever. I didn't make the claim about the sword, so I can't defend it. RMT destroys the fun of the game for those that believe it is not fair, pretty my 3/4 of those polled here. Obviously RMT doesn't affect people that play RMT games and think they are fun. It is not true that in a PvE game nothing you do affects the next person. Some examples are killing all the mobs in an area, selling items, giving items away so there is item inflation, and players will naturally compare thier characters against others, and share information. Where did you get that sword, should I get the gold shield next or the boots of speed? Players will affect each others perceptions of which items are good in the game, whether that can be proven statistically or not, and which character builds are better, etc. PvE in a Massive game does not exist in a vacuum. You can argue against the people claiming you can buy uber items in an RMT game. That is not my claim. I am saying ANY item sold for RMT unbalances the game so that I would not want to play it. Be it a hat with one point of mana bonus, or a potion of xp boost, or a rock. I am simply saying that from my perspective, if items can be earned by grinding mobs, quests, or paying for them, this is unfair since the dollar amount can never exactly equal the value of grinding or questing. Therefore, there is an arbitrary, subjective figure used, which cannot be "fair", since fair requires the measure to be objective, and not arbitrary. Also, that the fact that I can buy an xp boost, devalues the quests and mobs I grind, which is what destroyes the game for me. If you get a 10% xp boost, then the mobs I grind are now devalued, from my perspective, by 10%. If I buy the boost so the mobs will no longer be devalued, then I lose the content of grinding them. Either way, game destroyed for me.
Yeah, we can toss out RMT in an RMT game, since I don't think anyone is really debating that point. The encroachment of RMT into the P2P model is what is being debated.
Ok to simplify things.
What is the part that affects you, the acquisition of the item or the method of acquisition? Because if it's the method, than the item itself can't be all that important. From a gameplay perspective there is no difference whether I have killed 10 mobs, had my friend give it to me, or legally bought it with cash. The gameplay perspective is that I have the item.
That is what you are comparing against. How many XPs do I have, which gear did I get. You are not comparing how long it took me to get the sword, or how I did it. Just that I have it.
Now if your logic is to be followed, when my friend hands me their sword, your game is destroyed because I did not work for that sword.
See there are so many ways to devalue your time. All of them are in the game and many of them are totally legal and apparently accepted if typical guild behavior is believed. If you are playing the most efficient way, you will get twinked and PLed and never see any of the game. That is the most efficient way to play nearly every MMO out there. That is, if stats are the measure of why you are playing.
Mind you this makes sense, because the culture of MMOs is rampant with PL/twinked characters. Why, because I really don't care about the content. I'm there for the shiny numbers and the "badass avatar" (I love that phrase, thank you ArcAngel). As for how this occurred, well players are to blame for making an entertainment medium into a competition, devs are to blame for some really grindy and lame content that people are willing to go to extreme lengths to avoid; legal and illegal.
RMT ceases to be an issue when the game is fun enough that the participants play it for the sake of playing it, not for the slighlty odd one upsmanship that seems to have taken root. Of course, at the moment, I might as well wish for the moon as well...
Note: Edited some spelling issues...
No, you've gone very far off track.
It is not necessarily the items I am concerned with, but also the xp rate.
You not followed my logic at all, but substituted your own which has nothing to do with my points.
In a game where you did not cheat, and your friend did not cheat (break the TOS agreement), and there is no RMT, I do not care one iota that your friend gave you a sword.
Your friend did the content for the sword. That's all that matters. Content.
I am saying if your frined can buy the sword, if you can buy the sword, then I can buy the sword. The fact that you can buy it devalues it for me. If I can buy it, I will because I"m not a retard, so why would I play a game at a disadvantage? Do you play any games and purposely try to suck at them?
However, if I buy the sword, then I am missing the content.
So you've given me the choice to play the game like a retarded idiot (pretend the RMT items and xp bonuses don't exist) or skip the content. Either way, game ruined for me.
It effects his gameplay because he has no self control. If there is an option to buy the sword, he will have no choice but to go out and buy it instead of enjoying all of the fun grinding. And because of his lack of self control, the rest of us will need to cater our gameplay to his.
Yeah, pretty much. And I agree with him.
If you want RMT, feel free to go play them. No one is stopping you. But I dont think mainstream MMOs will cater to you (unless your're living in Asia), because you're not the majority.
You forget the "cheat" (as you called it) option. You can buy gold/items (the BOE ones) on almost every major MMOs. Sure it is illegal (in the eyes of the developers, not law), but I highly doubt people who want RMT would make that distinction.
Swords, xp potions, whatever. I didn't make the claim about the sword, so I can't defend it. RMT destroys the fun of the game for those that believe it is not fair, pretty my 3/4 of those polled here. Obviously RMT doesn't affect people that play RMT games and think they are fun. It is not true that in a PvE game nothing you do affects the next person. Some examples are killing all the mobs in an area, selling items, giving items away so there is item inflation, and players will naturally compare thier characters against others, and share information. Where did you get that sword, should I get the gold shield next or the boots of speed? Players will affect each others perceptions of which items are good in the game, whether that can be proven statistically or not, and which character builds are better, etc. PvE in a Massive game does not exist in a vacuum. You can argue against the people claiming you can buy uber items in an RMT game. That is not my claim. I am saying ANY item sold for RMT unbalances the game so that I would not want to play it. Be it a hat with one point of mana bonus, or a potion of xp boost, or a rock. I am simply saying that from my perspective, if items can be earned by grinding mobs, quests, or paying for them, this is unfair since the dollar amount can never exactly equal the value of grinding or questing. Therefore, there is an arbitrary, subjective figure used, which cannot be "fair", since fair requires the measure to be objective, and not arbitrary. Also, that the fact that I can buy an xp boost, devalues the quests and mobs I grind, which is what destroyes the game for me. If you get a 10% xp boost, then the mobs I grind are now devalued, from my perspective, by 10%. If I buy the boost so the mobs will no longer be devalued, then I lose the content of grinding them. Either way, game destroyed for me.
Yeah, we can toss out RMT in an RMT game, since I don't think anyone is really debating that point. The encroachment of RMT into the P2P model is what is being debated.
Ok to simplify things.
What is the part that affects you, the acquisition of the item or the method of acquisition? Because if it's the method, than the item itself can't be all that important. From a gameplay perspective there is no difference whether I have killed 10 mobs, had my friend give it to me, or legally bought it with cash. The gameplay perspective is that I have the item.
That is what you are comparing against. How many XPs do I have, which gear did I get. You are not comparing how long it took me to get the sword, or how I did it. Just that I have it.
Now if your logic is to be followed, when my friend hands me their sword, your game is destroyed because I did not work for that sword.
See there are so many ways to devalue your time. All of them are in the game and many of them are totally legal and apparently accepted if typical guild behavior is believed. If you are playing the most efficient way, you will get twinked and PLed and never see any of the game. That is the most efficient way to play nearly every MMO out there. That is, if stats are the measure of why you are playing.
Mind you this makes sense, because the culture of MMOs is rampant with PL/twinked characters. Why, because I really don't care about the content. I'm there for the shiny numbers and the "badass avatar" (I love that phrase, thank you ArcAngel). As for how this occurred, well players are to blame for making an entertainment medium into a competition, devs are to blame for some really grindy and lame content that people are willing to go to extreme lengths to avoid; legal and illegal.
RMT ceases to be an issue when the game is fun enough that the participants play it for the sake of playing it, not for the slighlty odd one upsmanship that seems to have taken root. Of course, at the moment, I might as well wish for the moon as well...
Note: Edited some spelling issues...
No, you've gone very far off track.
It is not necessarily the items I am concerned with, but also the xp rate.
You not followed my logic at all, but substituted your own which has nothing to do with my points.
In a game where you did not cheat, and your friend did not cheat (break the TOS agreement), and there is no RMT, I do not care one iota that your friend gave you a sword.
Your friend did the content for the sword. That's all that matters. Content.
I am saying if your frined can buy the sword, if you can buy the sword, then I can buy the sword. The fact that you can buy it devalues it for me. If I can buy it, I will because I"m not a retard, so why would I play a game at a disadvantage? Do you play any games and purposely try to suck at them?
However, if I buy the sword, then I am missing the content.
So you've given me the choice to play the game like a retarded idiot (pretend the RMT items and xp bonuses don't exist) or skip the content. Either way, game ruined for me.
Again, no self control.
Will you only golf with the most expensive clubs on the planet? Or can you play with a cheap set to just have fun?
This makes no sense. How is self control related to not playing a game at it's full potential? You're asking me to purposely suck at the game, and if I don't, that's because I lack self control? How so? You lack the self control to play the game like a retard. What?
You're back to the measure and worth of an MMO being only the speed and efficiency of leveling.
This is so soiidly reinforced in your contention that the person who is not buying the XP boost "sucks" at playing the MMO. In that same regard, the person that logs in to do anything but leveling "sucks" at playing the MMO because he is not maximizing the rate at which he gains XP.
You said earlier in the thread that you don't like the XP boosts for sale in an MMO because you would not be able to NOT buy them and that is where he is getting the 'self control' comment from. That was the core of your argument a few pages back, no?
There is a distinction you are missing.
You can suck at an activity or not, and that is quite a different thing from choosing to do the activity or not.
I can log in and chat. I could suck at chat, or do it very well.
I can log in to xp, and suck at doing that, or do it very well.
Whether or not I am good at xp has nothign to do with whether or not I will decide to chat or xp. One is not mutually exclusive of the other, just because you're bad at it, or good at it.
Tehre are two mobs.
You can whack either one wiht one hit and kill it. One gives you 10 xp, one gives you 100 xp.
Which one would you hit?
If you chose the one that gives 100 xp, does that mean you will never do anything else in the game, and would never stop to chat? Or does it mean you can count and are not retarded?
Would that be fair to say, if you only hit the Mob that gives 100 xp, you have no self control?
What's the difference between that, and not buying an XP potion that turns the 10 xp mob into an 11xp mob, or whatever the numbers are?
One of the things I was thinking about while working out today was that perhaps it is the visibility of RMT that makes it so unpalatable.
Because you really can't justify the difference between twinking to get ahead and RMT to get ahead (assuming that it's added to your game to take legality out of the picture). Many people have stated in this thread that they would never play a game with RMT in it, yet will happily have their apparent hard won gains invalidated by the Twinker or the PLer. So while the argument in the thread has been about content and advancement and hours vs. dollars... I doubt that's really the issue.
There is a sword for a quest. I want the sword.
A. I do the quest. I have the sword
B. Bob is a level 2000 warrior, groups with me, wipes everything out and I take the sword. I have the sword.
C. Bob has the sword and is a nice guy, he gives it to me. I have the sword.
D. Bob is a Chinese gold seller who gives me the sword for $5. I have the sword.
E. Bob is a developer who run the item shop and sells me the sword for $5. I have the sword.
Assuming that all of the above are legal, most people fall into the camp that A is good, B and C are OK, and D and E are really bad. Yet the in game effects of B-E are exactly the same. I have the sword and didn't work for it.
I've mentioned that I think there's a societal bias which lets us illogically accept B&C while thinking that D&E are ultimate evil. However, I also think it might be a visibility thing. E is the only method that shows up in the game regardless of which level of acquisition that you are ok with. When you go to the store, you see all the nice $$ you can spend. Where you can try to ignore all of the prior.
Would dev sponsored RMT be more palatable if it was on a secondary web site? It's not something that you see, so the in game effects are no different than things people have mentioned that they are ok with. Is visibility the issue?
One of the things I was thinking about while working out today was that perhaps it is the visibility of RMT that makes it so unpalatable. Because you really can't justify the difference between twinking to get ahead and RMT to get ahead
You mean giving your low level character items from your high level charcter?
Some games put in measures to slow this down, like making gear to high for your level degrade.
If there was a good way to stop twinking, that would add to the game IMO.
One of the things I was thinking about while working out today was that perhaps it is the visibility of RMT that makes it so unpalatable. Because you really can't justify the difference between twinking to get ahead and RMT to get ahead (assuming that it's added to your game to take legality out of the picture). Many people have stated in this thread that they would never play a game with RMT in it, yet will happily have their apparent hard won gains invalidated by the Twinker or the PLer. So while the argument in the thread has been about content and advancement and hours vs. dollars... I doubt that's really the issue. There is a sword for a quest. I want the sword. A. I do the quest. I have the sword
B. Bob is a level 2000 warrior, groups with me, wipes everything out and I take the sword. I have the sword.
C. Bob has the sword and is a nice guy, he gives it to me. I have the sword.
D. Bob is a Chinese gold seller who gives me the sword for $5. I have the sword.
E. Bob is a developer who run the item shop and sells me the sword for $5. I have the sword. Assuming that all of the above are legal, most people fall into the camp that A is good, B and C are OK, and D and E are really bad. Yet the in game effects of B-C are exactly the same. I have the sword and didn't work for it. I've mentioned that I think there's a societal bias which lets us illogically accept B&C while thinking that D&E are ultimate evil. However, I also think it might be a visibility thing. E is the only method that shows up in the game regardless of which level of acquisition that you are ok with. When you go to the store, you see all the nice $$ you can spend. Where you can try to ignore all of the prior. Would dev sponsored RMT be more palatable if it was on a secondary web site? It's not something that you see, so the in game effects are no different than things people have mentioned that they are ok with. Is visibility the issue?
Last night I logged into the D&D f2p beta. One of the first thing I noticed was their approach to RMT. For instance, I can play all of the melee classes... except the Monk! Great incentive to give them 5 bucks, but doesn't hurt anyone. They also pointed out that you will never be able to buy the best weapons, that the only way to get them will be to earn them. That being said, you can buy weapons that will aid you in your grind to get the best weapons.
Obviously some people will hate this no matter what, but it does seem like they are approaching it in a way that I would be willing to deal with.
One of the things I was thinking about while working out today was that perhaps it is the visibility of RMT that makes it so unpalatable. Because you really can't justify the difference between twinking to get ahead and RMT to get ahead (assuming that it's added to your game to take legality out of the picture). Many people have stated in this thread that they would never play a game with RMT in it, yet will happily have their apparent hard won gains invalidated by the Twinker or the PLer. So while the argument in the thread has been about content and advancement and hours vs. dollars... I doubt that's really the issue. There is a sword for a quest. I want the sword. A. I do the quest. I have the sword
B. Bob is a level 2000 warrior, groups with me, wipes everything out and I take the sword. I have the sword.
C. Bob has the sword and is a nice guy, he gives it to me. I have the sword.
D. Bob is a Chinese gold seller who gives me the sword for $5. I have the sword.
E. Bob is a developer who run the item shop and sells me the sword for $5. I have the sword. Assuming that all of the above are legal, most people fall into the camp that A is good, B and C are OK, and D and E are really bad. Yet the in game effects of B-C are exactly the same. I have the sword and didn't work for it. I've mentioned that I think there's a societal bias which lets us illogically accept B&C while thinking that D&E are ultimate evil. However, I also think it might be a visibility thing. E is the only method that shows up in the game regardless of which level of acquisition that you are ok with. When you go to the store, you see all the nice $$ you can spend. Where you can try to ignore all of the prior. Would dev sponsored RMT be more palatable if it was on a secondary web site? It's not something that you see, so the in game effects are no different than things people have mentioned that they are ok with. Is visibility the issue?
Last night I logged into the D&D f2p beta. One of the first thing I noticed was their approach to RMT. For instance, I can play all of the melee classes... except the Monk! Great incentive to give them 5 bucks, but doesn't hurt anyone. They also pointed out that you will never be able to buy the best weapons, that the only way to get them will be to earn them. That being said, you can buy weapons that will aid you in your grind to get the best weapons.
Obviously some people will hate this no matter what, but it does seem like they are approaching it in a way that I would be willing to deal with.
Would not play it because of the RMT.
Classes that are only available if you pay, and some people pay, and some don't? Nope.
One of the things I was thinking about while working out today was that perhaps it is the visibility of RMT that makes it so unpalatable. Because you really can't justify the difference between twinking to get ahead and RMT to get ahead
You mean giving your low level character items from your high level charcter?
Some games put in measures to slow this down, like making gear to high for your level degrade.
If there was a good way to stop twinking, that would add to the game IMO.
Or I can give my brother 5000g so HE can bypass some grinding. No money is involved but is that fair?
Would not play it because of the RMT. Classes that are only available if you pay, and some people pay, and some don't? Nope. You can buy weapons? Nope, not for me. I"ll stick with the P2P games.
What game do YOU play then? Unless you are like brain-dead who for some reason can live with ILLEGAL RMT (gold buying) but not sanction ones, I don't see you can escape from RMT.
People can easily buy a sword (with RMT gold) from WOW, buy a ship in EVE. Almost all popular MMORPGs have illegal RMT.
One of the things I was thinking about while working out today was that perhaps it is the visibility of RMT that makes it so unpalatable. Because you really can't justify the difference between twinking to get ahead and RMT to get ahead (assuming that it's added to your game to take legality out of the picture). Many people have stated in this thread that they would never play a game with RMT in it, yet will happily have their apparent hard won gains invalidated by the Twinker or the PLer. So while the argument in the thread has been about content and advancement and hours vs. dollars... I doubt that's really the issue. There is a sword for a quest. I want the sword. A. I do the quest. I have the sword
B. Bob is a level 2000 warrior, groups with me, wipes everything out and I take the sword. I have the sword.
C. Bob has the sword and is a nice guy, he gives it to me. I have the sword.
D. Bob is a Chinese gold seller who gives me the sword for $5. I have the sword.
E. Bob is a developer who run the item shop and sells me the sword for $5. I have the sword. Assuming that all of the above are legal, most people fall into the camp that A is good, B and C are OK, and D and E are really bad. Yet the in game effects of B-C are exactly the same. I have the sword and didn't work for it. I've mentioned that I think there's a societal bias which lets us illogically accept B&C while thinking that D&E are ultimate evil. However, I also think it might be a visibility thing. E is the only method that shows up in the game regardless of which level of acquisition that you are ok with. When you go to the store, you see all the nice $$ you can spend. Where you can try to ignore all of the prior. Would dev sponsored RMT be more palatable if it was on a secondary web site? It's not something that you see, so the in game effects are no different than things people have mentioned that they are ok with. Is visibility the issue?
Last night I logged into the D&D f2p beta. One of the first thing I noticed was their approach to RMT. For instance, I can play all of the melee classes... except the Monk! Great incentive to give them 5 bucks, but doesn't hurt anyone. They also pointed out that you will never be able to buy the best weapons, that the only way to get them will be to earn them. That being said, you can buy weapons that will aid you in your grind to get the best weapons.
Obviously some people will hate this no matter what, but it does seem like they are approaching it in a way that I would be willing to deal with.
Would not play it because of the RMT.
Classes that are only available if you pay, and some people pay, and some don't? Nope.
You can buy weapons? Nope, not for me.
I"ll stick with the P2P games.
What happens when there are no P2P games left? Or the only ones left suck?
I think you're just shooting yourself in the foot here, if I actually believed you would just stop playing online games altogether. Which I don't.
Truth is universal. Neither of us makes it so by saying it. It just so happens that by saying it, I am correct, and you are incorrect. ..and we should just take your word for it that you are correct. Uh huh.
Of course not. I've stated several times that you are more than welcome to do some simple research. I also stated that I'm not going to do it for you.
He's also been given plenty of links to information. He will dismiss any fact or data you present to him with "How do you know that is correct?" or "What makes them an authority?"
I'm serious. Already tried days ago. Mr. Brain "F2P is a fringe market" Dead will not accept anything other than what he already believes. It's both fascinating and sad.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
No, you've gone very far off track. It is not necessarily the items I am concerned with, but also the xp rate. You not followed my logic at all, but substituted your own which has nothing to do with my points. In a game where you did not cheat, and your friend did not cheat (break the TOS agreement), and there is no RMT, I do not care one iota that your friend gave you a sword. Your friend did the content for the sword. That's all that matters. Content. I am saying if your frined can buy the sword, if you can buy the sword, then I can buy the sword. The fact that you can buy it devalues it for me. If I can buy it, I will because I"m not a retard, so why would I play a game at a disadvantage? Do you play any games and purposely try to suck at them? However, if I buy the sword, then I am missing the content. So you've given me the choice to play the game like a retarded idiot (pretend the RMT items and xp bonuses don't exist) or skip the content. Either way, game ruined for me.
Ok so then let's look at XP rate.
Your XP rate is utterly destroyed if you don't PL in the fastest method possible. That's usually getting a character just above your level to smash the most efficient time/xp mobs in the game over and over. Then get another person a few levels higher than you to do the same.
I take it that's how you approach every MMO...
Otherwise, you are sucking at the game if XP is the comparison. PLing is the most efficient way to be "good" at the game so not doing it would make you really bad. In my mind you are missing everything coming close to content, but if that's the most efficient way to do it, enjoyment is in doing it the fastest or best.
Frankly, I doubt that's how you approach games, although who knows. There are quite a few people who do.
So already you are not taking the most efficient path. Are you are saying that the lure of $$ makes that path more attractive? I would think there is a contradiction if you don't PL but would be forced to buy the XP potion.
Would not play it because of the RMT. Classes that are only available if you pay, and some people pay, and some don't? Nope. You can buy weapons? Nope, not for me. I"ll stick with the P2P games.
What happens when there are no P2P games left? Or the only ones left suck?
I think you're just shooting yourself in the foot here, if I actually believed you would just stop playing online games altogether. Which I don't.
I don't know. I'm not playing any right now, mostly because I've played the ones I liked to death and the remaining ones seem to have too many time barriers for my tastes... oh and I can't afoard RMT games. Go figure. So if he says that he wouldn't play any P2P games when RMT gets introduced, you have to kind of take it at face value... even if you think that maybe, just maybe he'd re-evaluate his priorities.
Still principles are a funny thing, whether I think his are illogical or not. I'm sure he thinks the same of mine.
Would not play it because of the RMT. Classes that are only available if you pay, and some people pay, and some don't? Nope. You can buy weapons? Nope, not for me. I"ll stick with the P2P games.
What happens when there are no P2P games left? Or the only ones left suck?
I think you're just shooting yourself in the foot here, if I actually believed you would just stop playing online games altogether. Which I don't.
I don't know. I'm not playing any right now, mostly because I've played the ones I liked to death and the remaining ones seem to have too many time barriers for my tastes... oh and I can't afoard RMT games. Go figure. So if he says that he wouldn't play any P2P games when RMT gets introduced, you have to kind of take it at face value... even if you think that maybe, just maybe he'd re-evaluate his priorities.
Still principles are a funny thing, whether I think his are illogical or not. I'm sure he thinks the same of mine.
Except that if someone thinks RMT is unfair, and 3/4 of those responding to this poll do, then buying the sword destroys the entertainment value. The "wasting of time" is only a waste, if RMT exists, otherwise it's not if you appreciate the content of the game. But the content is destroyed by adding RMT...
To start, this "buying the sword" example is a fallacy. The onus is on you to provide proof that this is the norm in RMT and so far no one has done that yet.
But then you go on to say that buying items destroys the entertainment value. Who does it destroy the value for?
The buyer? The person bought it to enhance the entertainment value of the game, so it's not him.
The person who vhose not to buy any items? How and where does it affect that person's gameplay? In a PvE game, nothing you do affects the next person, so could you explain how it affects this person? In a PvP game, the norm is that item malls do not create an imbalance. Why? Because then no one would play the game.
You are saying there is an imbalance and it is unfair. Without data or examples to back that, especially with the scanrios that the anti-RMT people are presenting, it seems like a lot of the ground you're standing on is a foundation of myth and misinformation.
It effects his gameplay because he has no self control. If there is an option to buy the sword, he will have no choice but to go out and buy it instead of enjoying all of the fun grinding. And because of his lack of self control, the rest of us will need to cater our gameplay to his.
This makes no sense.
How is self control related to not playing a game at it's full potential?
You're asking me to purposely suck at the game, and if I don't, that's because I lack self control? How so?
You lack the self control to play the game like a retard. What?
You get to CHOOSE to grind or CHOOSE to buy an item. Choice is a wonderful thing. You get to decide how much money your time is worth. As you have a limited supply of money, you also get to choose which items to buy and which to grind for.
Of course, in your case you seem more bent on choosing how others must play.
One question for you.
There are two mobs in the game. They can both be killed with the same effort.
One gives you 10 xp. The other gives you 100 xp.
Which one will you kill?
If you kill the one with 100 xp, does that mean you have no self control?
Then, if you will kill the one with 100 xp (which you will unless you are being contrary or you are retarded) how is that different from taking the XP pill (or buying the sword)?
Is it lack of control, or that I can actually count, and I know that 1 is more than 2?
Tell me why you are going to kill the Mob with 10 xp and not the one with 100xp?
Why would I play the RMT game and NOT buy the XP pill or the sword? Can you give me any real justification for that, except I dont have enough money to afford it?
Except that if someone thinks RMT is unfair, and 3/4 of those responding to this poll do, then buying the sword destroys the entertainment value. The "wasting of time" is only a waste, if RMT exists, otherwise it's not if you appreciate the content of the game. But the content is destroyed by adding RMT...
To start, this "buying the sword" example is a fallacy. The onus is on you to provide proof that this is the norm in RMT and so far no one has done that yet.
But then you go on to say that buying items destroys the entertainment value. Who does it destroy the value for?
The buyer? The person bought it to enhance the entertainment value of the game, so it's not him.
The person who vhose not to buy any items? How and where does it affect that person's gameplay? In a PvE game, nothing you do affects the next person, so could you explain how it affects this person? In a PvP game, the norm is that item malls do not create an imbalance. Why? Because then no one would play the game.
You are saying there is an imbalance and it is unfair. Without data or examples to back that, especially with the scanrios that the anti-RMT people are presenting, it seems like a lot of the ground you're standing on is a foundation of myth and misinformation.
It effects his gameplay because he has no self control. If there is an option to buy the sword, he will have no choice but to go out and buy it instead of enjoying all of the fun grinding. And because of his lack of self control, the rest of us will need to cater our gameplay to his.
This makes no sense.
How is self control related to not playing a game at it's full potential?
You're asking me to purposely suck at the game, and if I don't, that's because I lack self control? How so?
You lack the self control to play the game like a retard. What?
You get to CHOOSE to grind or CHOOSE to buy an item. Choice is a wonderful thing. You get to decide how much money your time is worth. As you have a limited supply of money, you also get to choose which items to buy and which to grind for.
Of course, in your case you seem more bent on choosing how others must play.
One question for you.
There are two mobs in the game. They can both be killed with the same effort.
One gives you 10 xp. The other gives you 100 xp.
Which one will you kill?
If you kill the one with 100 xp, does that mean you have no self control?
Then, if you will kill the one with 100 xp (which you will unless you are being contrary or you are retarded) how is that different from taking the XP pill (or buying the sword)?
Is it lack of control, or that I can actually count, and I know that 1 is more than 2?
Tell me why you are going to kill the Mob with 10 xp and not the one with 100xp?
Why would I play the RMT game and NOT buy the XP pill or the sword? Can you give me any real justification for that, except I dont have enough money to afford it?
Not trying to be an ass here, but I'm not following the 10xp vs 100xp argument. I'm not seeing the relevence. Now, if you said that I had to pay you 5 bucks in order to kill the one worth 100xp, then it would make more sense. In which case I may do it, or I may just save the 5 bucks and spend a couple minutes killing 10 of the 10x monsters.
Why would you play the RMT and not buy the XP pill or the sword?
a) You can't afford it (sorry, but it's a valid reason)
b) You can afford it but would rather use your money elsewhere
c) you're grouping with friends who would rather go earn it, so you might as well do it with them
d) you know that its not worth it because in one or two levels there's a much better choice
e) you have nothing better to do so you might as well grind
f) you're morally opposed to RMT so you're going to go earn it no matter what
g) It's part of a fun quest chain, and afterall, you're here to have fun!
But aren't I just wasting my time giving you all of these reasons? You'll never play a game with RMT, so what's the point?
Comments
Twinking, PLing, Illegal RMT, all of those are in response to the barriers that people see in front of their entertainment.
But they also impact my entertainment. So who's entertainment should take priority?
MMO companies are going to go with whatever will bring them the largest revenue stream. If this poll is and accurate representation of the MMO community, RMT would result in a loss of revenue for them.
Twinking and power levelling are gray areas, because many people dont have a problem with them since everyone can do it. It costs no money.
To start, this "buying the sword" example is a fallacy. The onus is on you to provide proof that this is the norm in RMT and so far no one has done that yet.
But then you go on to say that buying items destroys the entertainment value. Who does it destroy the value for?
The buyer? The person bought it to enhance the entertainment value of the game, so it's not him.
The person who vhose not to buy any items? How and where does it affect that person's gameplay? In a PvE game, nothing you do affects the next person, so could you explain how it affects this person? In a PvP game, the norm is that item malls do not create an imbalance. Why? Because then no one would play the game.
You are saying there is an imbalance and it is unfair. Without data or examples to back that, especially with the scanrios that the anti-RMT people are presenting, it seems like a lot of the ground you're standing on is a foundation of myth and misinformation.
Swords, xp potions, whatever. I didn't make the claim about the sword, so I can't defend it.
RMT destroys the fun of the game for those that believe it is not fair, pretty my 3/4 of those polled here.
Obviously RMT doesn't affect people that play RMT games and think they are fun.
It is not true that in a PvE game nothing you do affects the next person. Some examples are killing all the mobs in an area, selling items, giving items away so there is item inflation, and players will naturally compare thier characters against others, and share information. Where did you get that sword, should I get the gold shield next or the boots of speed? Players will affect each others perceptions of which items are good in the game, whether that can be proven statistically or not, and which character builds are better, etc.
PvE in a Massive game does not exist in a vacuum.
You can argue against the people claiming you can buy uber items in an RMT game. That is not my claim. I am saying ANY item sold for RMT unbalances the game so that I would not want to play it.
Be it a hat with one point of mana bonus, or a potion of xp boost, or a rock.
I am simply saying that from my perspective, if items can be earned by grinding mobs, quests, or paying for them, this is unfair since the dollar amount can never exactly equal the value of grinding or questing. Therefore, there is an arbitrary, subjective figure used, which cannot be "fair", since fair requires the measure to be objective, and not arbitrary.
Also, that the fact that I can buy an xp boost, devalues the quests and mobs I grind, which is what destroyes the game for me.
If you get a 10% xp boost, then the mobs I grind are now devalued, from my perspective, by 10%. If I buy the boost so the mobs will no longer be devalued, then I lose the content of grinding them. Either way, game destroyed for me.
To start, this "buying the sword" example is a fallacy. The onus is on you to provide proof that this is the norm in RMT and so far no one has done that yet.
But then you go on to say that buying items destroys the entertainment value. Who does it destroy the value for?
The buyer? The person bought it to enhance the entertainment value of the game, so it's not him.
The person who vhose not to buy any items? How and where does it affect that person's gameplay? In a PvE game, nothing you do affects the next person, so could you explain how it affects this person? In a PvP game, the norm is that item malls do not create an imbalance. Why? Because then no one would play the game.
You are saying there is an imbalance and it is unfair. Without data or examples to back that, especially with the scanrios that the anti-RMT people are presenting, it seems like a lot of the ground you're standing on is a foundation of myth and misinformation.
It effects his gameplay because he has no self control. If there is an option to buy the sword, he will have no choice but to go out and buy it instead of enjoying all of the fun grinding. And because of his lack of self control, the rest of us will need to cater our gameplay to his.
This makes no sense.
How is self control related to not playing a game at it's full potential?
You're asking me to purposely suck at the game, and if I don't, that's because I lack self control? How so?
You lack the self control to play the game like a retard. What?
Yeah, we can toss out RMT in an RMT game, since I don't think anyone is really debating that point. The encroachment of RMT into the P2P model is what is being debated.
Ok to simplify things.
What is the part that affects you, the acquisition of the item or the method of acquisition? Because if it's the method, than the item itself can't be all that important. From a gameplay perspective there is no difference whether I have killed 10 mobs, had my friend give it to me, or legally bought it with cash. The gameplay perspective is that I have the item.
That is what you are comparing against. How many XPs do I have, which gear did I get. You are not comparing how long it took me to get the sword, or how I did it. Just that I have it.
Now if your logic is to be followed, when my friend hands me their sword, your game is destroyed because I did not work for that sword.
See there are so many ways to devalue your time. All of them are in the game and many of them are totally legal and apparently accepted if typical guild behavior is believed. If you are playing the most efficient way, you will get twinked and PLed and never see any of the game. That is the most efficient way to play nearly every MMO out there. That is, if stats are the measure of why you are playing.
Mind you this makes sense, because the culture of MMOs is rampant with PL/twinked characters. Why, because I really don't care about the content. I'm there for the shiny numbers and the "badass avatar" (I love that phrase, thank you ArcAngel). As for how this occurred, well players are to blame for making an entertainment medium into a competition, devs are to blame for some really grindy and lame content that people are willing to go to extreme lengths to avoid; legal and illegal.
RMT ceases to be an issue when the game is fun enough that the participants play it for the sake of playing it, not for the slighlty odd one upsmanship that seems to have taken root. Of course, at the moment, I might as well wish for the moon as well...
Note: Edited some spelling issues...
Of course not. I've stated several times that you are more than welcome to do some simple research. I also stated that I'm not going to do it for you.
You're back to the measure and worth (and as such, the value of time spent) of an MMO being only the speed and efficiency of leveling.
This is so soiidly reinforced in your contention that the person who is not buying the XP boost "sucks" at playing the MMO. In that same regard, the person that logs in to do anything but leveling "sucks" at playing the MMO because he is not maximizing the rate at which he gains XP.
You said earlier in the thread that you don't like the XP boosts for sale in an MMO because you would not be able to NOT buy them and that is where he is getting the 'self control' comment from. That was the core of your argument a few pages back, no?
Here's your argument as far as I can tell, and I would like you to tell me which line I am getting incorrect.
- You feel that not buying xp boosts and buffs is not playing the game to its full potential
- You feel that by NOT buying items in a F2P MMO you are choosing to make the game artificially harder for yourself and doing nothing more than gimping yourself for no reason.
- You feel that all MMOs are a competition between players
- You feel that if another player can skip content, then that is unfair to you
- You feel that everyone does have equal time and that those who say they do not are lying
If these are true, then the problem isn't that RMT isn't fair, rather that you create a self-imposed competition betwen you and other players that doesn't really exist. Due to the personal rules that you have set for this metagame you are playing, the mere thought that another person may have bought an item or potion from an item mall (because you have no way of knowing how they got to their level or rank or whatever) is enough to deem the entire system unfair and something that ruins the game not just for you, but for everyone.
Am I right or wrong?
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
To start, this "buying the sword" example is a fallacy. The onus is on you to provide proof that this is the norm in RMT and so far no one has done that yet.
But then you go on to say that buying items destroys the entertainment value. Who does it destroy the value for?
The buyer? The person bought it to enhance the entertainment value of the game, so it's not him.
The person who vhose not to buy any items? How and where does it affect that person's gameplay? In a PvE game, nothing you do affects the next person, so could you explain how it affects this person? In a PvP game, the norm is that item malls do not create an imbalance. Why? Because then no one would play the game.
You are saying there is an imbalance and it is unfair. Without data or examples to back that, especially with the scanrios that the anti-RMT people are presenting, it seems like a lot of the ground you're standing on is a foundation of myth and misinformation.
It effects his gameplay because he has no self control. If there is an option to buy the sword, he will have no choice but to go out and buy it instead of enjoying all of the fun grinding. And because of his lack of self control, the rest of us will need to cater our gameplay to his.
This makes no sense.
How is self control related to not playing a game at it's full potential?
You're asking me to purposely suck at the game, and if I don't, that's because I lack self control? How so?
You lack the self control to play the game like a retard. What?
You get to CHOOSE to grind or CHOOSE to buy an item. Choice is a wonderful thing. You get to decide how much money your time is worth. As you have a limited supply of money, you also get to choose which items to buy and which to grind for.
Of course, in your case you seem more bent on choosing how others must play.
He's talking about doing quests and killing mobs for 8 hours.
If I play 8 hours doing that in one day, and you play 1 minute a month and take 5 years to play the 8 hours, we'll still have done the same exact content.
We will still both have gotten 8 hours of advancement for 8 hours of game play.
If I spend $100 buying that in one day, and you spend $1 a month and take 5 years to spend the $100, we'll still have buy the same exact content.
We will still both have gotten $100 of advancement for $100 of game play.
But we haven't both gotten the same amount of enjoyment. We are buying entertainment, aren't we?
Ane we haven't both gotten the same amount of enjoyment, if you can grind 8 hrs a day and i can only grind 1 hr a day. What is the difference?
Yeah, we can toss out RMT in an RMT game, since I don't think anyone is really debating that point. The encroachment of RMT into the P2P model is what is being debated.
Ok to simplify things.
What is the part that affects you, the acquisition of the item or the method of acquisition? Because if it's the method, than the item itself can't be all that important. From a gameplay perspective there is no difference whether I have killed 10 mobs, had my friend give it to me, or legally bought it with cash. The gameplay perspective is that I have the item.
That is what you are comparing against. How many XPs do I have, which gear did I get. You are not comparing how long it took me to get the sword, or how I did it. Just that I have it.
Now if your logic is to be followed, when my friend hands me their sword, your game is destroyed because I did not work for that sword.
See there are so many ways to devalue your time. All of them are in the game and many of them are totally legal and apparently accepted if typical guild behavior is believed. If you are playing the most efficient way, you will get twinked and PLed and never see any of the game. That is the most efficient way to play nearly every MMO out there. That is, if stats are the measure of why you are playing.
Mind you this makes sense, because the culture of MMOs is rampant with PL/twinked characters. Why, because I really don't care about the content. I'm there for the shiny numbers and the "badass avatar" (I love that phrase, thank you ArcAngel). As for how this occurred, well players are to blame for making an entertainment medium into a competition, devs are to blame for some really grindy and lame content that people are willing to go to extreme lengths to avoid; legal and illegal.
RMT ceases to be an issue when the game is fun enough that the participants play it for the sake of playing it, not for the slighlty odd one upsmanship that seems to have taken root. Of course, at the moment, I might as well wish for the moon as well...
Note: Edited some spelling issues...
No, you've gone very far off track.
It is not necessarily the items I am concerned with, but also the xp rate.
You not followed my logic at all, but substituted your own which has nothing to do with my points.
In a game where you did not cheat, and your friend did not cheat (break the TOS agreement), and there is no RMT, I do not care one iota that your friend gave you a sword.
Your friend did the content for the sword. That's all that matters. Content.
I am saying if your frined can buy the sword, if you can buy the sword, then I can buy the sword. The fact that you can buy it devalues it for me. If I can buy it, I will because I"m not a retard, so why would I play a game at a disadvantage? Do you play any games and purposely try to suck at them?
However, if I buy the sword, then I am missing the content.
So you've given me the choice to play the game like a retarded idiot (pretend the RMT items and xp bonuses don't exist) or skip the content. Either way, game ruined for me.
It effects his gameplay because he has no self control. If there is an option to buy the sword, he will have no choice but to go out and buy it instead of enjoying all of the fun grinding. And because of his lack of self control, the rest of us will need to cater our gameplay to his.
Yeah, pretty much. And I agree with him.
If you want RMT, feel free to go play them. No one is stopping you. But I dont think mainstream MMOs will cater to you (unless your're living in Asia), because you're not the majority.
You forget the "cheat" (as you called it) option. You can buy gold/items (the BOE ones) on almost every major MMOs. Sure it is illegal (in the eyes of the developers, not law), but I highly doubt people who want RMT would make that distinction.
Yeah, we can toss out RMT in an RMT game, since I don't think anyone is really debating that point. The encroachment of RMT into the P2P model is what is being debated.
Ok to simplify things.
What is the part that affects you, the acquisition of the item or the method of acquisition? Because if it's the method, than the item itself can't be all that important. From a gameplay perspective there is no difference whether I have killed 10 mobs, had my friend give it to me, or legally bought it with cash. The gameplay perspective is that I have the item.
That is what you are comparing against. How many XPs do I have, which gear did I get. You are not comparing how long it took me to get the sword, or how I did it. Just that I have it.
Now if your logic is to be followed, when my friend hands me their sword, your game is destroyed because I did not work for that sword.
See there are so many ways to devalue your time. All of them are in the game and many of them are totally legal and apparently accepted if typical guild behavior is believed. If you are playing the most efficient way, you will get twinked and PLed and never see any of the game. That is the most efficient way to play nearly every MMO out there. That is, if stats are the measure of why you are playing.
Mind you this makes sense, because the culture of MMOs is rampant with PL/twinked characters. Why, because I really don't care about the content. I'm there for the shiny numbers and the "badass avatar" (I love that phrase, thank you ArcAngel). As for how this occurred, well players are to blame for making an entertainment medium into a competition, devs are to blame for some really grindy and lame content that people are willing to go to extreme lengths to avoid; legal and illegal.
RMT ceases to be an issue when the game is fun enough that the participants play it for the sake of playing it, not for the slighlty odd one upsmanship that seems to have taken root. Of course, at the moment, I might as well wish for the moon as well...
Note: Edited some spelling issues...
No, you've gone very far off track.
It is not necessarily the items I am concerned with, but also the xp rate.
You not followed my logic at all, but substituted your own which has nothing to do with my points.
In a game where you did not cheat, and your friend did not cheat (break the TOS agreement), and there is no RMT, I do not care one iota that your friend gave you a sword.
Your friend did the content for the sword. That's all that matters. Content.
I am saying if your frined can buy the sword, if you can buy the sword, then I can buy the sword. The fact that you can buy it devalues it for me. If I can buy it, I will because I"m not a retard, so why would I play a game at a disadvantage? Do you play any games and purposely try to suck at them?
However, if I buy the sword, then I am missing the content.
So you've given me the choice to play the game like a retarded idiot (pretend the RMT items and xp bonuses don't exist) or skip the content. Either way, game ruined for me.
Again, no self control.
Will you only golf with the most expensive clubs on the planet? Or can you play with a cheap set to just have fun?
You're back to the measure and worth of an MMO being only the speed and efficiency of leveling.
This is so soiidly reinforced in your contention that the person who is not buying the XP boost "sucks" at playing the MMO. In that same regard, the person that logs in to do anything but leveling "sucks" at playing the MMO because he is not maximizing the rate at which he gains XP.
You said earlier in the thread that you don't like the XP boosts for sale in an MMO because you would not be able to NOT buy them and that is where he is getting the 'self control' comment from. That was the core of your argument a few pages back, no?
There is a distinction you are missing.
You can suck at an activity or not, and that is quite a different thing from choosing to do the activity or not.
I can log in and chat. I could suck at chat, or do it very well.
I can log in to xp, and suck at doing that, or do it very well.
Whether or not I am good at xp has nothign to do with whether or not I will decide to chat or xp. One is not mutually exclusive of the other, just because you're bad at it, or good at it.
Tehre are two mobs.
You can whack either one wiht one hit and kill it. One gives you 10 xp, one gives you 100 xp.
Which one would you hit?
If you chose the one that gives 100 xp, does that mean you will never do anything else in the game, and would never stop to chat? Or does it mean you can count and are not retarded?
Would that be fair to say, if you only hit the Mob that gives 100 xp, you have no self control?
What's the difference between that, and not buying an XP potion that turns the 10 xp mob into an 11xp mob, or whatever the numbers are?
None.
One of the things I was thinking about while working out today was that perhaps it is the visibility of RMT that makes it so unpalatable.
Because you really can't justify the difference between twinking to get ahead and RMT to get ahead (assuming that it's added to your game to take legality out of the picture). Many people have stated in this thread that they would never play a game with RMT in it, yet will happily have their apparent hard won gains invalidated by the Twinker or the PLer. So while the argument in the thread has been about content and advancement and hours vs. dollars... I doubt that's really the issue.
There is a sword for a quest. I want the sword.
A. I do the quest. I have the sword
B. Bob is a level 2000 warrior, groups with me, wipes everything out and I take the sword. I have the sword.
C. Bob has the sword and is a nice guy, he gives it to me. I have the sword.
D. Bob is a Chinese gold seller who gives me the sword for $5. I have the sword.
E. Bob is a developer who run the item shop and sells me the sword for $5. I have the sword.
Assuming that all of the above are legal, most people fall into the camp that A is good, B and C are OK, and D and E are really bad. Yet the in game effects of B-E are exactly the same. I have the sword and didn't work for it.
I've mentioned that I think there's a societal bias which lets us illogically accept B&C while thinking that D&E are ultimate evil. However, I also think it might be a visibility thing. E is the only method that shows up in the game regardless of which level of acquisition that you are ok with. When you go to the store, you see all the nice $$ you can spend. Where you can try to ignore all of the prior.
Would dev sponsored RMT be more palatable if it was on a secondary web site? It's not something that you see, so the in game effects are no different than things people have mentioned that they are ok with. Is visibility the issue?
You mean giving your low level character items from your high level charcter?
Some games put in measures to slow this down, like making gear to high for your level degrade.
If there was a good way to stop twinking, that would add to the game IMO.
Last night I logged into the D&D f2p beta. One of the first thing I noticed was their approach to RMT. For instance, I can play all of the melee classes... except the Monk! Great incentive to give them 5 bucks, but doesn't hurt anyone. They also pointed out that you will never be able to buy the best weapons, that the only way to get them will be to earn them. That being said, you can buy weapons that will aid you in your grind to get the best weapons.
Obviously some people will hate this no matter what, but it does seem like they are approaching it in a way that I would be willing to deal with.
Last night I logged into the D&D f2p beta. One of the first thing I noticed was their approach to RMT. For instance, I can play all of the melee classes... except the Monk! Great incentive to give them 5 bucks, but doesn't hurt anyone. They also pointed out that you will never be able to buy the best weapons, that the only way to get them will be to earn them. That being said, you can buy weapons that will aid you in your grind to get the best weapons.
Obviously some people will hate this no matter what, but it does seem like they are approaching it in a way that I would be willing to deal with.
Would not play it because of the RMT.
Classes that are only available if you pay, and some people pay, and some don't? Nope.
You can buy weapons? Nope, not for me.
I"ll stick with the P2P games.
You mean giving your low level character items from your high level charcter?
Some games put in measures to slow this down, like making gear to high for your level degrade.
If there was a good way to stop twinking, that would add to the game IMO.
Or I can give my brother 5000g so HE can bypass some grinding. No money is involved but is that fair?
What game do YOU play then? Unless you are like brain-dead who for some reason can live with ILLEGAL RMT (gold buying) but not sanction ones, I don't see you can escape from RMT.
People can easily buy a sword (with RMT gold) from WOW, buy a ship in EVE. Almost all popular MMORPGs have illegal RMT.
Last night I logged into the D&D f2p beta. One of the first thing I noticed was their approach to RMT. For instance, I can play all of the melee classes... except the Monk! Great incentive to give them 5 bucks, but doesn't hurt anyone. They also pointed out that you will never be able to buy the best weapons, that the only way to get them will be to earn them. That being said, you can buy weapons that will aid you in your grind to get the best weapons.
Obviously some people will hate this no matter what, but it does seem like they are approaching it in a way that I would be willing to deal with.
Would not play it because of the RMT.
Classes that are only available if you pay, and some people pay, and some don't? Nope.
You can buy weapons? Nope, not for me.
I"ll stick with the P2P games.
What happens when there are no P2P games left? Or the only ones left suck?
I think you're just shooting yourself in the foot here, if I actually believed you would just stop playing online games altogether. Which I don't.
Of course not. I've stated several times that you are more than welcome to do some simple research. I also stated that I'm not going to do it for you.
He's also been given plenty of links to information. He will dismiss any fact or data you present to him with "How do you know that is correct?" or "What makes them an authority?"
I'm serious. Already tried days ago. Mr. Brain "F2P is a fringe market" Dead will not accept anything other than what he already believes. It's both fascinating and sad.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Ok so then let's look at XP rate.
Your XP rate is utterly destroyed if you don't PL in the fastest method possible. That's usually getting a character just above your level to smash the most efficient time/xp mobs in the game over and over. Then get another person a few levels higher than you to do the same.
I take it that's how you approach every MMO...
Otherwise, you are sucking at the game if XP is the comparison. PLing is the most efficient way to be "good" at the game so not doing it would make you really bad. In my mind you are missing everything coming close to content, but if that's the most efficient way to do it, enjoyment is in doing it the fastest or best.
Frankly, I doubt that's how you approach games, although who knows. There are quite a few people who do.
So already you are not taking the most efficient path. Are you are saying that the lure of $$ makes that path more attractive? I would think there is a contradiction if you don't PL but would be forced to buy the XP potion.
What happens when there are no P2P games left? Or the only ones left suck?
I think you're just shooting yourself in the foot here, if I actually believed you would just stop playing online games altogether. Which I don't.
I don't know. I'm not playing any right now, mostly because I've played the ones I liked to death and the remaining ones seem to have too many time barriers for my tastes... oh and I can't afoard RMT games
. Go figure. So if he says that he wouldn't play any P2P games when RMT gets introduced, you have to kind of take it at face value... even if you think that maybe, just maybe he'd re-evaluate his priorities.
Still principles are a funny thing, whether I think his are illogical or not. I'm sure he thinks the same of mine.
What happens when there are no P2P games left? Or the only ones left suck?
I think you're just shooting yourself in the foot here, if I actually believed you would just stop playing online games altogether. Which I don't.
I don't know. I'm not playing any right now, mostly because I've played the ones I liked to death and the remaining ones seem to have too many time barriers for my tastes... oh and I can't afoard RMT games
. Go figure. So if he says that he wouldn't play any P2P games when RMT gets introduced, you have to kind of take it at face value... even if you think that maybe, just maybe he'd re-evaluate his priorities.
Still principles are a funny thing, whether I think his are illogical or not. I'm sure he thinks the same of mine.
Principles are bought and sold just like RMT!
To start, this "buying the sword" example is a fallacy. The onus is on you to provide proof that this is the norm in RMT and so far no one has done that yet.
But then you go on to say that buying items destroys the entertainment value. Who does it destroy the value for?
The buyer? The person bought it to enhance the entertainment value of the game, so it's not him.
The person who vhose not to buy any items? How and where does it affect that person's gameplay? In a PvE game, nothing you do affects the next person, so could you explain how it affects this person? In a PvP game, the norm is that item malls do not create an imbalance. Why? Because then no one would play the game.
You are saying there is an imbalance and it is unfair. Without data or examples to back that, especially with the scanrios that the anti-RMT people are presenting, it seems like a lot of the ground you're standing on is a foundation of myth and misinformation.
It effects his gameplay because he has no self control. If there is an option to buy the sword, he will have no choice but to go out and buy it instead of enjoying all of the fun grinding. And because of his lack of self control, the rest of us will need to cater our gameplay to his.
This makes no sense.
How is self control related to not playing a game at it's full potential?
You're asking me to purposely suck at the game, and if I don't, that's because I lack self control? How so?
You lack the self control to play the game like a retard. What?
You get to CHOOSE to grind or CHOOSE to buy an item. Choice is a wonderful thing. You get to decide how much money your time is worth. As you have a limited supply of money, you also get to choose which items to buy and which to grind for.
Of course, in your case you seem more bent on choosing how others must play.
One question for you.
There are two mobs in the game. They can both be killed with the same effort.
One gives you 10 xp. The other gives you 100 xp.
Which one will you kill?
If you kill the one with 100 xp, does that mean you have no self control?
Then, if you will kill the one with 100 xp (which you will unless you are being contrary or you are retarded) how is that different from taking the XP pill (or buying the sword)?
Is it lack of control, or that I can actually count, and I know that 1 is more than 2?
Tell me why you are going to kill the Mob with 10 xp and not the one with 100xp?
Why would I play the RMT game and NOT buy the XP pill or the sword? Can you give me any real justification for that, except I dont have enough money to afford it?
To start, this "buying the sword" example is a fallacy. The onus is on you to provide proof that this is the norm in RMT and so far no one has done that yet.
But then you go on to say that buying items destroys the entertainment value. Who does it destroy the value for?
The buyer? The person bought it to enhance the entertainment value of the game, so it's not him.
The person who vhose not to buy any items? How and where does it affect that person's gameplay? In a PvE game, nothing you do affects the next person, so could you explain how it affects this person? In a PvP game, the norm is that item malls do not create an imbalance. Why? Because then no one would play the game.
You are saying there is an imbalance and it is unfair. Without data or examples to back that, especially with the scanrios that the anti-RMT people are presenting, it seems like a lot of the ground you're standing on is a foundation of myth and misinformation.
It effects his gameplay because he has no self control. If there is an option to buy the sword, he will have no choice but to go out and buy it instead of enjoying all of the fun grinding. And because of his lack of self control, the rest of us will need to cater our gameplay to his.
This makes no sense.
How is self control related to not playing a game at it's full potential?
You're asking me to purposely suck at the game, and if I don't, that's because I lack self control? How so?
You lack the self control to play the game like a retard. What?
You get to CHOOSE to grind or CHOOSE to buy an item. Choice is a wonderful thing. You get to decide how much money your time is worth. As you have a limited supply of money, you also get to choose which items to buy and which to grind for.
Of course, in your case you seem more bent on choosing how others must play.
One question for you.
There are two mobs in the game. They can both be killed with the same effort.
One gives you 10 xp. The other gives you 100 xp.
Which one will you kill?
If you kill the one with 100 xp, does that mean you have no self control?
Then, if you will kill the one with 100 xp (which you will unless you are being contrary or you are retarded) how is that different from taking the XP pill (or buying the sword)?
Is it lack of control, or that I can actually count, and I know that 1 is more than 2?
Tell me why you are going to kill the Mob with 10 xp and not the one with 100xp?
Why would I play the RMT game and NOT buy the XP pill or the sword? Can you give me any real justification for that, except I dont have enough money to afford it?
Not trying to be an ass here, but I'm not following the 10xp vs 100xp argument. I'm not seeing the relevence. Now, if you said that I had to pay you 5 bucks in order to kill the one worth 100xp, then it would make more sense. In which case I may do it, or I may just save the 5 bucks and spend a couple minutes killing 10 of the 10x monsters.
Why would you play the RMT and not buy the XP pill or the sword?
a) You can't afford it (sorry, but it's a valid reason)
b) You can afford it but would rather use your money elsewhere
c) you're grouping with friends who would rather go earn it, so you might as well do it with them
d) you know that its not worth it because in one or two levels there's a much better choice
e) you have nothing better to do so you might as well grind
f) you're morally opposed to RMT so you're going to go earn it no matter what
g) It's part of a fun quest chain, and afterall, you're here to have fun!
But aren't I just wasting my time giving you all of these reasons? You'll never play a game with RMT, so what's the point?