One question for you. There are two mobs in the game. They can both be killed with the same effort. One gives you 10 xp. The other gives you 100 xp.
Which one will you kill? If you kill the one with 100 xp, does that mean you have no self control? Then, if you will kill the one with 100 xp (which you will unless you are being contrary or you are retarded) how is that different from taking the XP pill (or buying the sword)? Is it lack of control, or that I can actually count, and I know that 1 is more than 2? Tell me why you are going to kill the Mob with 10 xp and not the one with 100xp? Why would I play the RMT game and NOT buy the XP pill or the sword? Can you give me any real justification for that, except I dont have enough money to afford it?
I will kill the one that is the most fun to kill. If the 100xp one requires a long and dull grind to get to him, I might avoid him entirely. Or perhaps the battle is frustrating, I might avoid him entirely. Going to City of Heroes, Carnies are avoided because they are annoying, they cast holds and confuses. They give decent XP, but the frustration in being held all the time drives people away for them. Why? It's not fun. So I go find mobs that have less XP to hunt because they are more fun to battle.
That's why I might kill the one with 10xp over the one with 100xp.
Your justification for not buying the XP pill is the same justification for not twinking or PLing. You enjoy what you are doing and don't want to shorten the experience. That's why people keep referencing self control.
Except that if someone thinks RMT is unfair, and 3/4 of those responding to this poll do, then buying the sword destroys the entertainment value. The "wasting of time" is only a waste, if RMT exists, otherwise it's not if you appreciate the content of the game. But the content is destroyed by adding RMT...
To start, this "buying the sword" example is a fallacy. The onus is on you to provide proof that this is the norm in RMT and so far no one has done that yet.
But then you go on to say that buying items destroys the entertainment value. Who does it destroy the value for?
The buyer? The person bought it to enhance the entertainment value of the game, so it's not him.
The person who vhose not to buy any items? How and where does it affect that person's gameplay? In a PvE game, nothing you do affects the next person, so could you explain how it affects this person? In a PvP game, the norm is that item malls do not create an imbalance. Why? Because then no one would play the game.
You are saying there is an imbalance and it is unfair. Without data or examples to back that, especially with the scanrios that the anti-RMT people are presenting, it seems like a lot of the ground you're standing on is a foundation of myth and misinformation.
It effects his gameplay because he has no self control. If there is an option to buy the sword, he will have no choice but to go out and buy it instead of enjoying all of the fun grinding. And because of his lack of self control, the rest of us will need to cater our gameplay to his.
This makes no sense.
How is self control related to not playing a game at it's full potential?
You're asking me to purposely suck at the game, and if I don't, that's because I lack self control? How so?
You lack the self control to play the game like a retard. What?
You get to CHOOSE to grind or CHOOSE to buy an item. Choice is a wonderful thing. You get to decide how much money your time is worth. As you have a limited supply of money, you also get to choose which items to buy and which to grind for.
Of course, in your case you seem more bent on choosing how others must play.
One question for you.
There are two mobs in the game. They can both be killed with the same effort.
One gives you 10 xp. The other gives you 100 xp.
Which one will you kill?
If you kill the one with 100 xp, does that mean you have no self control?
Then, if you will kill the one with 100 xp (which you will unless you are being contrary or you are retarded) how is that different from taking the XP pill (or buying the sword)?
Is it lack of control, or that I can actually count, and I know that 1 is more than 2?
Tell me why you are going to kill the Mob with 10 xp and not the one with 100xp?
Why would I play the RMT game and NOT buy the XP pill or the sword? Can you give me any real justification for that, except I dont have enough money to afford it?
Not trying to be an ass here, but I'm not following the 10xp vs 100xp argument. I'm not seeing the relevence. Now, if you said that I had to pay you 5 bucks in order to kill the one worth 100xp, then it would make more sense. In which case I may do it, or I may just save the 5 bucks and spend a couple minutes killing 10 of the 10x monsters.
Why would you play the RMT and not buy the XP pill or the sword?
a) You can't afford it (sorry, but it's a valid reason)
b) You can afford it but would rather use your money elsewhere
c) you're grouping with friends who would rather go earn it, so you might as well do it with them
d) you know that its not worth it because in one or two levels there's a much better choice
e) you have nothing better to do so you might as well grind
f) you're morally opposed to RMT so you're going to go earn it no matter what
g) It's part of a fun quest chain, and afterall, you're here to have fun!
But aren't I just wasting my time giving you all of these reasons? You'll never play a game with RMT, so what's the point?
There are two mobs.
One gives 10 xp, one gives 100 xp.
Both require the same effort to kill.
Which one will you kill?
In this example, the mobs are identical, except for the amount of xp they will give.
What if someone said, in EQ, it took a long time to level. I like that. IN WoW you leveled quickly. I don't like that.
Would you tell that person, that's because they have no self control? They could stick to whacking very low level mobs that give very little xp, and that would make WoW just like EQ?
The only difference is there lack of self control?
If so, our conversation is finished, I can't understand you.
If not, that's the same thing you're telling me.
Hit the mob with 10 xp! It'll be just like you're playing EQ, unless you don't have self control!
Uh, no dude, it will be like i'm retarded, and no one is going to do that or think they are playing EQ.
Same thign as telling me not to take the xp pill.
How is that any different than not hitting the mob that gives 100 xp? Would you seriously tell someone that?
I still do not think money is the way though. I just cannot see a way where money can be used to catch up and it always be fair for everyone.
Can any of you who feel it is unfair present an example using an existing F2P game? Age of Armor and War Rock excluded because those two are simply bad design. Using those as examples of why all RMT is bad is like using UO 1998 as an example of why all housing is bad.
Qombi's made it very clear he has no familiarity at all with the actual mechanics of any of this and I get the feeling that a lot of the anti-RMT stuff is based on assumptions and regurgitation of misinformation.
I never said that all RMT was bad. I have said from the beginning that I have a problem with THIS type of RMT. I only have a real problem with games that you pay money to speed through the game which is in essence buying time. Also I have said from the beginning that if the game was made with any type of RMT in mind then it is fair because it is part of the rules of the game. I just do not play them since obviously I do not like them.
Why do I care?
Because this type of RMT happens in games it is not meant for as well. Such as buying characters, gold, and powerleveling in WoW or just buying characters and gold in a game like Runescape. (yes it can effect a F2P game too, Runescape was never built for that kind of play)
Let me say it again.....
"I know everyone is not like me and that alone is reason enough to have games with this type of RMT. I do not want all games to have this so I can have my "fairness" too."
I knew the one post where I did not make it clear that RMT should exist but so should RMT-free games, some1 would jump all over it.
That's my answer as well. To use an existing scenario as an example, when I log into AC, I go to the Direlands because I find open world hunting more fun than dungeon grinding. The XP is a fraction of what I could get if I joined my guildmates in Fiuns or Eaters or whatever dungeon they are farming now, but I enjoy the Dires more. On top of that, I like hunting the Olthoi and the golems. Ihave no clue if their xp return is better or worse than the return from all the other mobs out there. I just find those the most fun to hunt.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Of course not. I've stated several times that you are more than welcome to do some simple research.
...so you are correct by default unless we prove you wrong. Uh huh.
You get to CHOOSE to grind or CHOOSE to buy an item. Choice is a wonderful thing.
Like when mainstream MMOs choose not to implement RMT. I love that choice.
Me: If you want RMT, feel free to go play them. No one is stopping you. But I dont think mainstream MMOs will cater to you (unless your're living in Asia), because you're not the majority.
You forget the "cheat" (as you called it) option.
If it is cheating, it isnt RMT by definition. Thats the whole point of RMT...it is "legal" to do in the game.
Sure it is illegal (in the eyes of the developers, not law), but I highly doubt people who want RMT would make that distinction.
As long as it remains illegal and developers try to fight it, I am ok with it. But cheating isnt RMT.
I just dont want developers making the cheating "legal". Thats all.
Will you only golf with the most expensive clubs on the planet? Or can you play with a cheap set to just have fun?
Why are you playing Modern MMOs when you can play Pong or Tetris? Do you need fancy graphics to have fun?
Because you really can't justify the difference between twinking to get ahead and RMT to get ahead
I can.
Twinking is something everyone in the game can also do. RMT is something only people who have more money can do.
Not defending twinking mind you (its really a separate topic). But it is not analogous to RMT for that reason.
I've mentioned that I think there's a societal bias which lets us illogically accept B&C while thinking that D&E are ultimate evil.
Yes, because the sword if more than a tool, it is a trophy. Like it or not, that is why many (most?) people play MMOs...the fame factor. If you can buy fame with money as opposed to earning it, the fame no longer has as much value.
Would dev sponsored RMT be more palatable if it was on a secondary web site?
Not to me, and I am guessing not to most MMO players either. Not if it affected game balance.
If anything, I would want it to be more visible...the only thing worse than playing in an RMT game is being tricked into believing it wasnt an RMT game by making the RMT aspect less visible.
Last night I logged into the D&D f2p beta. One of the first thing I noticed was their approach to RMT. For instance, I can play all of the melee classes... except the Monk! Great incentive to give them 5 bucks, but doesn't hurt anyone.
They are not really F2P, since they give you the option of a P2P model which includes everything, just like a normal MMO. The "F2P" game is really just an elaborate trial version.
I did not know you could buy weapons in it...if true, I would avoid it, and any game like it.
Obviously some people will hate this no matter what
Theres other reasons to hate DDO besides that...like the crapulent Eberron campaign setting. Yuck.
People can easily buy a sword (with RMT gold) from WOW, buy a ship in EVE.
Buying a ship in Eve does you no good if you cant fly it. You need skills for that, and you cant buy them. And if you lose that ship, it is gone forever.
Ships are also not an "I win" button in Eve...skills matter much more than hardware. That is why Eve is a poor example...it is not structured like most other MMOs.
As far as I know, there is no RMT gold in Wow. Illegal gold isnt RMT, its cheating, because it is against the rules of the game and punishable if you get caught.
What happens when there are no P2P games left? Or the only ones left suck?
It will never come to that. If it did, I would stop playing MMOs.
That's my answer as well. To use an existing scenario as an example, when I log into AC, I go to the Direlands because I find open world hunting more fun than dungeon grinding. The XP is a fraction of what I could get if I joined my guildmates in Fiuns or Eaters or whatever dungeon they are farming now, but I enjoy the Dires more. On top of that, I like hunting the Olthoi and the golems. Ihave no clue if their xp return is better or worse than the return from all the other mobs out there. I just find those the most fun to hunt.
That's called a dodge.
In this example, they are identical Mobs in every way, except one,. how much xp you get.
Since they are identical, the "fun" would be identical.
That's my answer as well. To use an existing scenario as an example, when I log into AC, I go to the Direlands because I find open world hunting more fun than dungeon grinding. The XP is a fraction of what I could get if I joined my guildmates in Fiuns or Eaters or whatever dungeon they are farming now, but I enjoy the Dires more. On top of that, I like hunting the Olthoi and the golems. Ihave no clue if their xp return is better or worse than the return from all the other mobs out there. I just find those the most fun to hunt.
That's called a dodge.
In this example, they are identical Mobs in every way, except one,. how much xp you get.
Since they are identical, the "fun" would be identical.
Still not going to answer the question?
It's still the same answer. Whichever one is more fun. You are obsessed with level efficiency and as a result I don't think you are understanding that not everyone cares if they are squeezing every last drop of xp out of their activities, let alone how their efficiency compares to someone else's.
If there's a great big field of wolves and some were 10xp and others were 100xp, YOU would find it fun to farm out all the 100's. I don't find that fun at all. I'd just mow through the entire bunch and call it a day.According to you, I'm being retarded for wasting time killing a 10xp instead of the 100xp next to it.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
That's my answer as well. To use an existing scenario as an example, when I log into AC, I go to the Direlands because I find open world hunting more fun than dungeon grinding. The XP is a fraction of what I could get if I joined my guildmates in Fiuns or Eaters or whatever dungeon they are farming now, but I enjoy the Dires more. On top of that, I like hunting the Olthoi and the golems. Ihave no clue if their xp return is better or worse than the return from all the other mobs out there. I just find those the most fun to hunt.
That's called a dodge.
In this example, they are identical Mobs in every way, except one,. how much xp you get.
Since they are identical, the "fun" would be identical.
Still not going to answer the question?
If they are identical, then your argument just doesn't have anywhere to go. Go back to your original thought and start over and see if you can put together something valid, then come back and try again.
And as I suspected, you completely ignored all of my reasons for not buying the sword/xp potion.
That's my answer as well. To use an existing scenario as an example, when I log into AC, I go to the Direlands because I find open world hunting more fun than dungeon grinding. The XP is a fraction of what I could get if I joined my guildmates in Fiuns or Eaters or whatever dungeon they are farming now, but I enjoy the Dires more. On top of that, I like hunting the Olthoi and the golems. Ihave no clue if their xp return is better or worse than the return from all the other mobs out there. I just find those the most fun to hunt.
That's called a dodge.
In this example, they are identical Mobs in every way, except one,. how much xp you get.
Since they are identical, the "fun" would be identical.
Still not going to answer the question?
If they are identical, then your argument just doesn't have anywhere to go. Go back to your original thought and start over and see if you can put together something valid, then come back and try again.
And as I suspected, you completely ignored all of my reasons for not buying the sword/xp potion.
Dodge.
When you take an XP potion, this is what happens. The EXACT same mobs gives more xp. So why would I not take it?
But you expect me to believe that if you were going to kill a mob (and no they are not all in the same field Lynx) and they were IDENTICAL,
You would purposely go kill the one that gives LESS xp? Really? Seriously? For waht reason?
Again, they are Identical, and they are not in the same field.
Why are you goign to go find the one that's EXACTLY like the other, but gives less xp and kill it?
But you expect me to do that, or I've got no self control. Hypocritical.
That's called a dodge. In this example, they are identical Mobs in every way, except one,. how much xp you get. Since they are identical, the "fun" would be identical. Still not going to answer the question?
Ok I'll kill the first one I see.
Assuming they are both equally fun, whichever of them happens to be in my way, I'll kill. This is of course assuming that they are fun enough that I am seeking them out. Odds are I'll kill both and not think twice about it. Nor will I worry about my XP rate in the process.
I have only level capped in one game, CoX. Most of that reason is that I play for fun and am never really obsessed with a comparison that is never fair to make in the first place. I play the game purely because I enjoy doing it... or I don't bother. I run subpar quests, don't hunt the most efficient stuff, and generally fit the term of casual player.
So if there were two mobs with big labels that told me the XP and they were standing side by side, I suppose I kill the one with the 100, but then I kill the one with the 10 instead of wandering off to find another of the 100s walking around. They were both fun to kill, so yeah me!
P.S. Before you say dodge, you are trying to attribute to me something that I don't do. If I cared what my XP rate was, yes the 100 one is better. However, I rarely do, and if I am killing the 10s and you are killing the 100s it doesn't impact my fun so it doesn't impact my game.
Me: If you want RMT, feel free to go play them. No one is stopping you. But I dont think mainstream MMOs will cater to you (unless your're living in Asia), because you're not the majority. You forget the "cheat" (as you called it) option. If it is cheating, it isnt RMT by definition. Thats the whole point of RMT...it is "legal" to do in the game.
Sure it is illegal (in the eyes of the developers, not law), but I highly doubt people who want RMT would make that distinction. As long as it remains illegal and developers try to fight it, I am ok with it. But cheating isnt RMT. I just dont want developers making the cheating "legal". Thats all.
Sure sure. You have no problem with major MMOs where cheating is so so easy. In fact, I wonder if there is a major MMORPG where one cannot buy some gold with just a free clicks.
That's my answer as well. To use an existing scenario as an example, when I log into AC, I go to the Direlands because I find open world hunting more fun than dungeon grinding. The XP is a fraction of what I could get if I joined my guildmates in Fiuns or Eaters or whatever dungeon they are farming now, but I enjoy the Dires more. On top of that, I like hunting the Olthoi and the golems. Ihave no clue if their xp return is better or worse than the return from all the other mobs out there. I just find those the most fun to hunt.
That's called a dodge.
In this example, they are identical Mobs in every way, except one,. how much xp you get.
Since they are identical, the "fun" would be identical.
Still not going to answer the question?
If they are identical, then your argument just doesn't have anywhere to go. Go back to your original thought and start over and see if you can put together something valid, then come back and try again.
And as I suspected, you completely ignored all of my reasons for not buying the sword/xp potion.
Dodge.
When you take an XP potion, this is what happens. The EXACT same mobs gives more xp. So why would I not take it?
But you expect me to believe that if you were going to kill a mob (and no they are not all in the same field Lynx) and they were IDENTICAL,
You would purposely go kill the one that gives LESS xp? Really? Seriously? For waht reason?
Dodge, like you've done again with my list of reasons reasons?
You forgot to mention that you have to PAY, that you have to do something DIFFERENT in order to kill these "identical" creatures. Hence, the whole "everything is the same, the only difference is the XP" argument doesn't hold up.
Originally posted by Ihmotepp You would purposely go kill the one that gives LESS xp? Really? Seriously? For waht reason? Again, they are Identical, and they are not in the same field. Why are you goign to go find the one that's EXACTLY like the other, but gives less xp and kill it?
They're in a more convenient location (closer, near shop, near related quest point, etc)
My friends/guildies are hunting there
They drop different loot
The zone looks cooler
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
As for the rested idea, I'm all for any ideas that can increase the quality of life for people without significant time. However, that doesn't really address some of the other time related barriers. For instance, while it's true that I can eventually work up to the 100 hour character, developers seem to add challenges that can only be done with large blocks of time, raids and the like. In that case, no matter what I do, I can't catch up if I don't regularly have large blocks of time. Now if the end game is raiding, then I probably don't care, I don't need gear to go on content that I won't have time for anyway. However, if there are other end game mechanics that I really like, like PvP or public quests, then that gear is now an impediment to me actually playing the game. My lack of time kicks me out of the area that I would enjoy and actively participate in. That's why I want RMT into games, not to buy my way past you, but to possibly buy my way to you.
I actually feel your pain a little bit here concerning raids lol. I really have not raided much at all but every time that I did I felt that they were entirely too long and entirely too repetitive ( used to be a holy pally in WoW ). Not raiding much then made it harder for me to compete with other healers in PVP. I feel this type of end-game raiding is in need of some major innovation.
Anyways, I have always felt that people should be able to get as good of armor through PVP as through PVE and raiding; getting good gear doing what you love. Although WoW kind of does this, it still just becomes a grind...... (like the end-game didn't already have enough of that >.<)
Maybe we should be discussing changes to gameplay mechanics instead of RMT.
Maybe we should be discussing changes to gameplay mechanics instead of RMT.
Ironically that's the sad part of the issue. If the gameplay mechanics and content are "WOW" (not world of warcraft wow, but WOW as in I just finished watching my favorite movie and did you see the part where the guy did the thing with the stuff, kind of WOW) then we don't have this conversation.
Instead the conversation becomes, "why are you so silly to be racing ahead when you missed out on the part where you get to do this coll thing with the stuff to that really bad dude." Then everyone flames the poor guy for missing out on the "BEST THING EVAR!"
Of course that remains a pipe dream until someone comes up with a better mechanic... but when it does change <sigh>.
Maybe we should be discussing changes to gameplay mechanics instead of RMT.
Ironically that's the sad part of the issue. If the gameplay mechanics and content are "WOW" (not world of warcraft wow, but WOW as in I just finished watching my favorite movie and did you see the part where the guy did the thing with the stuff, kind of WOW) then we don't have this conversation.
Instead the conversation becomes, "why are you so silly to be racing ahead when you missed out on the part where you get to do this coll thing with the stuff to that really bad dude." Then everyone flames the poor guy for missing out on the "BEST THING EVAR!"
Of course that remains a pipe dream until someone comes up with a better mechanic... but when it does change <sigh>.
Hmmm...
Since the main determining factor in how much content gets done is time then all we have to do is take the emphasis off time.
Maybe if a game rewards knowledge and skill over time but still retain the accessibility that a game like WoW has?
You have no problem with major MMOs where cheating is so so easy.
Um...when did I say that? Presume much?
All I have said so far is that I dont equate them with RMT.
In fact, I wonder if there is a major MMORPG where one cannot buy some gold with just a free clicks.
As far as I know, there are none that will not punish you if you are caught buying it. Many of them will insta-ban your account. CoH and Eve come to mind.
Because of that, a lot of people will not buy money even if they can afford it.
You cant remove time from the equation of "time and effort = progression" and still say your game is an MMORPG.
Create another genre then.
The problem is that time and effort is not the problem, the problem is when whatever the activities consistent of time and effort are not entertaining enough. Then people call it grind. Grind exist due to developers inability to make entertaining content worthy of whatever ammount of time and effort spent.
Money in RMT has nothing to do with it, and its presence stains the importance of time, therefore its a sin and should be banished.
Time is paramount. You cant remove time from the equation of "time and effort = progression" and still say your game is an MMORPG. Create another genre then.
DONE! *slams down gavel*
First meeting for the assignment of personal and arbitrary rules and conditions is now adjourned!
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
That's my answer as well. To use an existing scenario as an example, when I log into AC, I go to the Direlands because I find open world hunting more fun than dungeon grinding. The XP is a fraction of what I could get if I joined my guildmates in Fiuns or Eaters or whatever dungeon they are farming now, but I enjoy the Dires more. On top of that, I like hunting the Olthoi and the golems. Ihave no clue if their xp return is better or worse than the return from all the other mobs out there. I just find those the most fun to hunt.
That's called a dodge.
In this example, they are identical Mobs in every way, except one,. how much xp you get.
Since they are identical, the "fun" would be identical.
Still not going to answer the question?
It's still the same answer. Whichever one is more fun. You are obsessed with level efficiency and as a result I don't think you are understanding that not everyone cares if they are squeezing every last drop of xp out of their activities, let alone how their efficiency compares to someone else's.
If there's a great big field of wolves and some were 10xp and others were 100xp, YOU would find it fun to farm out all the 100's. I don't find that fun at all. I'd just mow through the entire bunch and call it a day.According to you, I'm being retarded for wasting time killing a 10xp instead of the 100xp next to it.
I think it is ironic to state someone else is obsessed with efficancy when you are the one arguing that RMT is okay to help speed up parts of the game. If you really didn't care about how fast you are doing content or how fast others are doing the content then you wouldn't be advocating for ways to speed up to catch others.
Time is paramount. You cant remove time from the equation of "time and effort = progression" and still say your game is an MMORPG. Create another genre then.
DONE! *slams down gavel*
First meeting for the assignment of personal and arbitrary rules and conditions is now adjourned!
Perhaps we should lay down some guidelines for the meeting...
You cant remove time from the equation of "time and effort = progression" and still say your game is an MMORPG.
Create another genre then.
The problem is that time and effort is not the problem, the problem is when whatever the activities consistent of time and effort are not entertaining enough. Then people call it grind. Grind exist due to developers inability to make entertaining content worthy of whatever ammount of time and effort spent.
Money in RMT has nothing to do with it, and its presence stains the importance of time, therefore its a sin and should be banished.
Well my definition of MMORPG is a RPG that is set into a massively multi-player environment. I never said though to get rid of the time element totally, just not to put so much emphasis on it to progress. Also the time is a problem for some people evidenced by this thread...
Why not have an engaging quest chain to become aligned with a certain faction instead of repeatable give me X items and go kill X things?
Why not make raids a lot shorter and tougher (so you have to think more) and then have the rewards for completing drop every time?
Heck why not have base stats altered by how you play (i.e. the more you use magic, you int goes up but str goes down) rather than grinding up levels to where a specific type of gear to alter them?
Why does time have to be the only way to progress? Why not let people use a little more brain power to help in the process?
Developers only made it all about time, so they can rake in cash while they can take there pretty little time making new content. All I'm really proposing is take out all the meaningless grinds and make the content more engaging (tougher even) in the first place.
You cant remove time from the equation of "time and effort = progression" and still say your game is an MMORPG.
Create another genre then.
The problem is that time and effort is not the problem, the problem is when whatever the activities consistent of time and effort are not entertaining enough. Then people call it grind. Grind exist due to developers inability to make entertaining content worthy of whatever ammount of time and effort spent.
Money in RMT has nothing to do with it, and its presence stains the importance of time, therefore its a sin and should be banished.
Well my definition of MMORPG is a RPG that is set into a massively multi-player environment. I never said though to get rid of the time element totally, just not to put so much emphasis on it to progress. Also the time is a problem for some people evidenced by this thread...
Why not have an engaging quest chain to become aligned with a certain faction instead of repeatable give me X items and go kill X things?
Why not make raids a lot shorter and tougher (so you have to think more) and then have the rewards for completing drop every time?
Heck why not have base stats altered by how you play (i.e. the more you use magic, you int goes up but str goes down) rather than grinding up levels to where a specific type of gear to alter them?
Why does time have to be the only way to progress? Why not let people use a little more brain power to help in the process?
Developers only made it all about time, so they can rake in cash while they can take there pretty little time making new content. All I'm really proposing is take out all the meaningless grinds and make the content more engaging (tougher even) in the first place.
We are obviously not oposing that alternative.
What we are oposing is the unethical/imoral money usage as a substitute to time.
The ideal, to be politically correct, as we already agreed upon in many other topics about it is that an MMORPG based on player skill as the main factor of success/efficiency in competition would be the best way.
Ive seen it work in some games, but not without time and effort equation, those would make the game only a MOG.
Time cant be fully ignored, its importance will still be there for multiple and obvious reasons.
And money, well, no way money can fit in. Dont get me started on "oh, what about illegal RMT" again...
Also, we hate grinding. Grinding as I said many times is just a side effect of developers inability to provide entertaining content to fill the time and effort activities players do that ALSO justify their progression in the persistent world.
When I mention time, there is a clear distinction between time and effort as an requisite equation of MMORPGs and grind. Grind is a by product and Im not trying to protect its existance or justify it. I dislike it as well. Im discussing this from the principle that no game should throw boring repetitive activities as a way to fill the creative void and development time of the game.
Now answer me this: Do you think you can have a Persistent world where people affect such world evolving along with it, without the chronological aspect?
Comments
I will kill the one that is the most fun to kill. If the 100xp one requires a long and dull grind to get to him, I might avoid him entirely. Or perhaps the battle is frustrating, I might avoid him entirely. Going to City of Heroes, Carnies are avoided because they are annoying, they cast holds and confuses. They give decent XP, but the frustration in being held all the time drives people away for them. Why? It's not fun. So I go find mobs that have less XP to hunt because they are more fun to battle.
That's why I might kill the one with 10xp over the one with 100xp.
Your justification for not buying the XP pill is the same justification for not twinking or PLing. You enjoy what you are doing and don't want to shorten the experience. That's why people keep referencing self control.
To start, this "buying the sword" example is a fallacy. The onus is on you to provide proof that this is the norm in RMT and so far no one has done that yet.
But then you go on to say that buying items destroys the entertainment value. Who does it destroy the value for?
The buyer? The person bought it to enhance the entertainment value of the game, so it's not him.
The person who vhose not to buy any items? How and where does it affect that person's gameplay? In a PvE game, nothing you do affects the next person, so could you explain how it affects this person? In a PvP game, the norm is that item malls do not create an imbalance. Why? Because then no one would play the game.
You are saying there is an imbalance and it is unfair. Without data or examples to back that, especially with the scanrios that the anti-RMT people are presenting, it seems like a lot of the ground you're standing on is a foundation of myth and misinformation.
It effects his gameplay because he has no self control. If there is an option to buy the sword, he will have no choice but to go out and buy it instead of enjoying all of the fun grinding. And because of his lack of self control, the rest of us will need to cater our gameplay to his.
This makes no sense.
How is self control related to not playing a game at it's full potential?
You're asking me to purposely suck at the game, and if I don't, that's because I lack self control? How so?
You lack the self control to play the game like a retard. What?
You get to CHOOSE to grind or CHOOSE to buy an item. Choice is a wonderful thing. You get to decide how much money your time is worth. As you have a limited supply of money, you also get to choose which items to buy and which to grind for.
Of course, in your case you seem more bent on choosing how others must play.
One question for you.
There are two mobs in the game. They can both be killed with the same effort.
One gives you 10 xp. The other gives you 100 xp.
Which one will you kill?
If you kill the one with 100 xp, does that mean you have no self control?
Then, if you will kill the one with 100 xp (which you will unless you are being contrary or you are retarded) how is that different from taking the XP pill (or buying the sword)?
Is it lack of control, or that I can actually count, and I know that 1 is more than 2?
Tell me why you are going to kill the Mob with 10 xp and not the one with 100xp?
Why would I play the RMT game and NOT buy the XP pill or the sword? Can you give me any real justification for that, except I dont have enough money to afford it?
Not trying to be an ass here, but I'm not following the 10xp vs 100xp argument. I'm not seeing the relevence. Now, if you said that I had to pay you 5 bucks in order to kill the one worth 100xp, then it would make more sense. In which case I may do it, or I may just save the 5 bucks and spend a couple minutes killing 10 of the 10x monsters.
Why would you play the RMT and not buy the XP pill or the sword?
a) You can't afford it (sorry, but it's a valid reason)
b) You can afford it but would rather use your money elsewhere
c) you're grouping with friends who would rather go earn it, so you might as well do it with them
d) you know that its not worth it because in one or two levels there's a much better choice
e) you have nothing better to do so you might as well grind
f) you're morally opposed to RMT so you're going to go earn it no matter what
g) It's part of a fun quest chain, and afterall, you're here to have fun!
But aren't I just wasting my time giving you all of these reasons? You'll never play a game with RMT, so what's the point?
There are two mobs.
One gives 10 xp, one gives 100 xp.
Both require the same effort to kill.
Which one will you kill?
In this example, the mobs are identical, except for the amount of xp they will give.
What if someone said, in EQ, it took a long time to level. I like that. IN WoW you leveled quickly. I don't like that.
Would you tell that person, that's because they have no self control? They could stick to whacking very low level mobs that give very little xp, and that would make WoW just like EQ?
The only difference is there lack of self control?
If so, our conversation is finished, I can't understand you.
If not, that's the same thing you're telling me.
Hit the mob with 10 xp! It'll be just like you're playing EQ, unless you don't have self control!
Uh, no dude, it will be like i'm retarded, and no one is going to do that or think they are playing EQ.
Same thign as telling me not to take the xp pill.
How is that any different than not hitting the mob that gives 100 xp? Would you seriously tell someone that?
Can any of you who feel it is unfair present an example using an existing F2P game? Age of Armor and War Rock excluded because those two are simply bad design. Using those as examples of why all RMT is bad is like using UO 1998 as an example of why all housing is bad.
Qombi's made it very clear he has no familiarity at all with the actual mechanics of any of this and I get the feeling that a lot of the anti-RMT stuff is based on assumptions and regurgitation of misinformation.
I never said that all RMT was bad. I have said from the beginning that I have a problem with THIS type of RMT. I only have a real problem with games that you pay money to speed through the game which is in essence buying time. Also I have said from the beginning that if the game was made with any type of RMT in mind then it is fair because it is part of the rules of the game. I just do not play them since obviously I do not like them.
Why do I care?
Because this type of RMT happens in games it is not meant for as well. Such as buying characters, gold, and powerleveling in WoW or just buying characters and gold in a game like Runescape. (yes it can effect a F2P game too, Runescape was never built for that kind of play)
Let me say it again.....
"I know everyone is not like me and that alone is reason enough to have games with this type of RMT. I do not want all games to have this so I can have my "fairness" too."
I knew the one post where I did not make it clear that RMT should exist but so should RMT-free games, some1 would jump all over it.
That's my answer as well. To use an existing scenario as an example, when I log into AC, I go to the Direlands because I find open world hunting more fun than dungeon grinding. The XP is a fraction of what I could get if I joined my guildmates in Fiuns or Eaters or whatever dungeon they are farming now, but I enjoy the Dires more. On top of that, I like hunting the Olthoi and the golems. Ihave no clue if their xp return is better or worse than the return from all the other mobs out there. I just find those the most fun to hunt.
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Of course not. I've stated several times that you are more than welcome to do some simple research.
...so you are correct by default unless we prove you wrong. Uh huh.
You get to CHOOSE to grind or CHOOSE to buy an item. Choice is a wonderful thing.
Like when mainstream MMOs choose not to implement RMT. I love that choice.
Me: If you want RMT, feel free to go play them. No one is stopping you. But I dont think mainstream MMOs will cater to you (unless your're living in Asia), because you're not the majority.
You forget the "cheat" (as you called it) option.
If it is cheating, it isnt RMT by definition. Thats the whole point of RMT...it is "legal" to do in the game.
Sure it is illegal (in the eyes of the developers, not law), but I highly doubt people who want RMT would make that distinction.
As long as it remains illegal and developers try to fight it, I am ok with it. But cheating isnt RMT.
I just dont want developers making the cheating "legal". Thats all.
Will you only golf with the most expensive clubs on the planet? Or can you play with a cheap set to just have fun?
Why are you playing Modern MMOs when you can play Pong or Tetris? Do you need fancy graphics to have fun?
Because you really can't justify the difference between twinking to get ahead and RMT to get ahead
I can.
Twinking is something everyone in the game can also do. RMT is something only people who have more money can do.
Not defending twinking mind you (its really a separate topic). But it is not analogous to RMT for that reason.
I've mentioned that I think there's a societal bias which lets us illogically accept B&C while thinking that D&E are ultimate evil.
Yes, because the sword if more than a tool, it is a trophy. Like it or not, that is why many (most?) people play MMOs...the fame factor. If you can buy fame with money as opposed to earning it, the fame no longer has as much value.
Would dev sponsored RMT be more palatable if it was on a secondary web site?
Not to me, and I am guessing not to most MMO players either. Not if it affected game balance.
If anything, I would want it to be more visible...the only thing worse than playing in an RMT game is being tricked into believing it wasnt an RMT game by making the RMT aspect less visible.
Last night I logged into the D&D f2p beta. One of the first thing I noticed was their approach to RMT. For instance, I can play all of the melee classes... except the Monk! Great incentive to give them 5 bucks, but doesn't hurt anyone.
They are not really F2P, since they give you the option of a P2P model which includes everything, just like a normal MMO. The "F2P" game is really just an elaborate trial version.
I did not know you could buy weapons in it...if true, I would avoid it, and any game like it.
Obviously some people will hate this no matter what
Theres other reasons to hate DDO besides that...like the crapulent Eberron campaign setting. Yuck.
People can easily buy a sword (with RMT gold) from WOW, buy a ship in EVE.
Buying a ship in Eve does you no good if you cant fly it. You need skills for that, and you cant buy them. And if you lose that ship, it is gone forever.
Ships are also not an "I win" button in Eve...skills matter much more than hardware. That is why Eve is a poor example...it is not structured like most other MMOs.
As far as I know, there is no RMT gold in Wow. Illegal gold isnt RMT, its cheating, because it is against the rules of the game and punishable if you get caught.
What happens when there are no P2P games left? Or the only ones left suck?
It will never come to that. If it did, I would stop playing MMOs.
That's my answer as well. To use an existing scenario as an example, when I log into AC, I go to the Direlands because I find open world hunting more fun than dungeon grinding. The XP is a fraction of what I could get if I joined my guildmates in Fiuns or Eaters or whatever dungeon they are farming now, but I enjoy the Dires more. On top of that, I like hunting the Olthoi and the golems. Ihave no clue if their xp return is better or worse than the return from all the other mobs out there. I just find those the most fun to hunt.
That's called a dodge.
In this example, they are identical Mobs in every way, except one,. how much xp you get.
Since they are identical, the "fun" would be identical.
Still not going to answer the question?
That's my answer as well. To use an existing scenario as an example, when I log into AC, I go to the Direlands because I find open world hunting more fun than dungeon grinding. The XP is a fraction of what I could get if I joined my guildmates in Fiuns or Eaters or whatever dungeon they are farming now, but I enjoy the Dires more. On top of that, I like hunting the Olthoi and the golems. Ihave no clue if their xp return is better or worse than the return from all the other mobs out there. I just find those the most fun to hunt.
That's called a dodge.
In this example, they are identical Mobs in every way, except one,. how much xp you get.
Since they are identical, the "fun" would be identical.
Still not going to answer the question?
It's still the same answer. Whichever one is more fun. You are obsessed with level efficiency and as a result I don't think you are understanding that not everyone cares if they are squeezing every last drop of xp out of their activities, let alone how their efficiency compares to someone else's.
If there's a great big field of wolves and some were 10xp and others were 100xp, YOU would find it fun to farm out all the 100's. I don't find that fun at all. I'd just mow through the entire bunch and call it a day.According to you, I'm being retarded for wasting time killing a 10xp instead of the 100xp next to it.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
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That's my answer as well. To use an existing scenario as an example, when I log into AC, I go to the Direlands because I find open world hunting more fun than dungeon grinding. The XP is a fraction of what I could get if I joined my guildmates in Fiuns or Eaters or whatever dungeon they are farming now, but I enjoy the Dires more. On top of that, I like hunting the Olthoi and the golems. Ihave no clue if their xp return is better or worse than the return from all the other mobs out there. I just find those the most fun to hunt.
That's called a dodge.
In this example, they are identical Mobs in every way, except one,. how much xp you get.
Since they are identical, the "fun" would be identical.
Still not going to answer the question?
If they are identical, then your argument just doesn't have anywhere to go. Go back to your original thought and start over and see if you can put together something valid, then come back and try again.
And as I suspected, you completely ignored all of my reasons for not buying the sword/xp potion.
That's my answer as well. To use an existing scenario as an example, when I log into AC, I go to the Direlands because I find open world hunting more fun than dungeon grinding. The XP is a fraction of what I could get if I joined my guildmates in Fiuns or Eaters or whatever dungeon they are farming now, but I enjoy the Dires more. On top of that, I like hunting the Olthoi and the golems. Ihave no clue if their xp return is better or worse than the return from all the other mobs out there. I just find those the most fun to hunt.
That's called a dodge.
In this example, they are identical Mobs in every way, except one,. how much xp you get.
Since they are identical, the "fun" would be identical.
Still not going to answer the question?
If they are identical, then your argument just doesn't have anywhere to go. Go back to your original thought and start over and see if you can put together something valid, then come back and try again.
And as I suspected, you completely ignored all of my reasons for not buying the sword/xp potion.
Dodge.
When you take an XP potion, this is what happens. The EXACT same mobs gives more xp. So why would I not take it?
But you expect me to believe that if you were going to kill a mob (and no they are not all in the same field Lynx) and they were IDENTICAL,
You would purposely go kill the one that gives LESS xp? Really? Seriously? For waht reason?
Again, they are Identical, and they are not in the same field.
Why are you goign to go find the one that's EXACTLY like the other, but gives less xp and kill it?
But you expect me to do that, or I've got no self control. Hypocritical.
Ok I'll kill the first one I see.
Assuming they are both equally fun, whichever of them happens to be in my way, I'll kill. This is of course assuming that they are fun enough that I am seeking them out. Odds are I'll kill both and not think twice about it. Nor will I worry about my XP rate in the process.
I have only level capped in one game, CoX. Most of that reason is that I play for fun and am never really obsessed with a comparison that is never fair to make in the first place. I play the game purely because I enjoy doing it... or I don't bother. I run subpar quests, don't hunt the most efficient stuff, and generally fit the term of casual player.
So if there were two mobs with big labels that told me the XP and they were standing side by side, I suppose I kill the one with the 100, but then I kill the one with the 10 instead of wandering off to find another of the 100s walking around. They were both fun to kill, so yeah me!
P.S. Before you say dodge, you are trying to attribute to me something that I don't do. If I cared what my XP rate was, yes the 100 one is better. However, I rarely do, and if I am killing the 10s and you are killing the 100s it doesn't impact my fun so it doesn't impact my game.
Sure sure. You have no problem with major MMOs where cheating is so so easy. In fact, I wonder if there is a major MMORPG where one cannot buy some gold with just a free clicks.
That's my answer as well. To use an existing scenario as an example, when I log into AC, I go to the Direlands because I find open world hunting more fun than dungeon grinding. The XP is a fraction of what I could get if I joined my guildmates in Fiuns or Eaters or whatever dungeon they are farming now, but I enjoy the Dires more. On top of that, I like hunting the Olthoi and the golems. Ihave no clue if their xp return is better or worse than the return from all the other mobs out there. I just find those the most fun to hunt.
That's called a dodge.
In this example, they are identical Mobs in every way, except one,. how much xp you get.
Since they are identical, the "fun" would be identical.
Still not going to answer the question?
If they are identical, then your argument just doesn't have anywhere to go. Go back to your original thought and start over and see if you can put together something valid, then come back and try again.
And as I suspected, you completely ignored all of my reasons for not buying the sword/xp potion.
Dodge.
When you take an XP potion, this is what happens. The EXACT same mobs gives more xp. So why would I not take it?
But you expect me to believe that if you were going to kill a mob (and no they are not all in the same field Lynx) and they were IDENTICAL,
You would purposely go kill the one that gives LESS xp? Really? Seriously? For waht reason?
Dodge, like you've done again with my list of reasons reasons?
You forgot to mention that you have to PAY, that you have to do something DIFFERENT in order to kill these "identical" creatures. Hence, the whole "everything is the same, the only difference is the XP" argument doesn't hold up.
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I actually feel your pain a little bit here concerning raids lol. I really have not raided much at all but every time that I did I felt that they were entirely too long and entirely too repetitive ( used to be a holy pally in WoW
). Not raiding much then made it harder for me to compete with other healers in PVP. I feel this type of end-game raiding is in need of some major innovation.
Anyways, I have always felt that people should be able to get as good of armor through PVP as through PVE and raiding; getting good gear doing what you love. Although WoW kind of does this, it still just becomes a grind...... (like the end-game didn't already have enough of that >.<)
Maybe we should be discussing changes to gameplay mechanics instead of RMT.
Ironically that's the sad part of the issue. If the gameplay mechanics and content are "WOW" (not world of warcraft wow, but WOW as in I just finished watching my favorite movie and did you see the part where the guy did the thing with the stuff, kind of WOW) then we don't have this conversation.
Instead the conversation becomes, "why are you so silly to be racing ahead when you missed out on the part where you get to do this coll thing with the stuff to that really bad dude." Then everyone flames the poor guy for missing out on the "BEST THING EVAR!"
Of course that remains a pipe dream until someone comes up with a better mechanic... but when it does change <sigh>.
Ironically that's the sad part of the issue. If the gameplay mechanics and content are "WOW" (not world of warcraft wow, but WOW as in I just finished watching my favorite movie and did you see the part where the guy did the thing with the stuff, kind of WOW) then we don't have this conversation.
Instead the conversation becomes, "why are you so silly to be racing ahead when you missed out on the part where you get to do this coll thing with the stuff to that really bad dude." Then everyone flames the poor guy for missing out on the "BEST THING EVAR!"
Of course that remains a pipe dream until someone comes up with a better mechanic... but when it does change <sigh>.
Hmmm...
Since the main determining factor in how much content gets done is time then all we have to do is take the emphasis off time.
Maybe if a game rewards knowledge and skill over time but still retain the accessibility that a game like WoW has?
Just a thought .
(Sorry if I'm getting too off topic)
You have no problem with major MMOs where cheating is so so easy.
Um...when did I say that? Presume much?
All I have said so far is that I dont equate them with RMT.
In fact, I wonder if there is a major MMORPG where one cannot buy some gold with just a free clicks.
As far as I know, there are none that will not punish you if you are caught buying it. Many of them will insta-ban your account. CoH and Eve come to mind.
Because of that, a lot of people will not buy money even if they can afford it.
Time is paramount.
You cant remove time from the equation of "time and effort = progression" and still say your game is an MMORPG.
Create another genre then.
The problem is that time and effort is not the problem, the problem is when whatever the activities consistent of time and effort are not entertaining enough. Then people call it grind. Grind exist due to developers inability to make entertaining content worthy of whatever ammount of time and effort spent.
Money in RMT has nothing to do with it, and its presence stains the importance of time, therefore its a sin and should be banished.
DONE! *slams down gavel*
First meeting for the assignment of personal and arbitrary rules and conditions is now adjourned!
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
That's my answer as well. To use an existing scenario as an example, when I log into AC, I go to the Direlands because I find open world hunting more fun than dungeon grinding. The XP is a fraction of what I could get if I joined my guildmates in Fiuns or Eaters or whatever dungeon they are farming now, but I enjoy the Dires more. On top of that, I like hunting the Olthoi and the golems. Ihave no clue if their xp return is better or worse than the return from all the other mobs out there. I just find those the most fun to hunt.
That's called a dodge.
In this example, they are identical Mobs in every way, except one,. how much xp you get.
Since they are identical, the "fun" would be identical.
Still not going to answer the question?
It's still the same answer. Whichever one is more fun. You are obsessed with level efficiency and as a result I don't think you are understanding that not everyone cares if they are squeezing every last drop of xp out of their activities, let alone how their efficiency compares to someone else's.
If there's a great big field of wolves and some were 10xp and others were 100xp, YOU would find it fun to farm out all the 100's. I don't find that fun at all. I'd just mow through the entire bunch and call it a day.According to you, I'm being retarded for wasting time killing a 10xp instead of the 100xp next to it.
I think it is ironic to state someone else is obsessed with efficancy when you are the one arguing that RMT is okay to help speed up parts of the game. If you really didn't care about how fast you are doing content or how fast others are doing the content then you wouldn't be advocating for ways to speed up to catch others.
MMORPGs are about persistant worlds, and persistent worlds have character progression, character progression happens over time.
Therefore time is paramount.
Thats MMORPGs, baby! Dislike that? There are other genres.
What about MOGs? Do you like that, it seem to fit you taste. What about F2P MOGs? Thats the future, so get happy.
DONE! *slams down gavel*
First meeting for the assignment of personal and arbitrary rules and conditions is now adjourned!
Perhaps we should lay down some guidelines for the meeting...
Are you guys contesting the crown of time in MMORPGs?
Make a topic to discuss just that then, so we can carve deep in the origins of MMORPGs.
Historically, Teleologically, Culturaly, Deontologically.
I will give the Gramatical one as a good will gift to you at the start.
Well my definition of MMORPG is a RPG that is set into a massively multi-player environment. I never said though to get rid of the time element totally, just not to put so much emphasis on it to progress. Also the time is a problem for some people evidenced by this thread...
Why not have an engaging quest chain to become aligned with a certain faction instead of repeatable give me X items and go kill X things?
Why not make raids a lot shorter and tougher (so you have to think more) and then have the rewards for completing drop every time?
Heck why not have base stats altered by how you play (i.e. the more you use magic, you int goes up but str goes down) rather than grinding up levels to where a specific type of gear to alter them?
Why does time have to be the only way to progress? Why not let people use a little more brain power to help in the process?
Developers only made it all about time, so they can rake in cash while they can take there pretty little time making new content. All I'm really proposing is take out all the meaningless grinds and make the content more engaging (tougher even) in the first place.
Well my definition of MMORPG is a RPG that is set into a massively multi-player environment. I never said though to get rid of the time element totally, just not to put so much emphasis on it to progress. Also the time is a problem for some people evidenced by this thread...
Why not have an engaging quest chain to become aligned with a certain faction instead of repeatable give me X items and go kill X things?
Why not make raids a lot shorter and tougher (so you have to think more) and then have the rewards for completing drop every time?
Heck why not have base stats altered by how you play (i.e. the more you use magic, you int goes up but str goes down) rather than grinding up levels to where a specific type of gear to alter them?
Why does time have to be the only way to progress? Why not let people use a little more brain power to help in the process?
Developers only made it all about time, so they can rake in cash while they can take there pretty little time making new content. All I'm really proposing is take out all the meaningless grinds and make the content more engaging (tougher even) in the first place.
We are obviously not oposing that alternative.
What we are oposing is the unethical/imoral money usage as a substitute to time.
The ideal, to be politically correct, as we already agreed upon in many other topics about it is that an MMORPG based on player skill as the main factor of success/efficiency in competition would be the best way.
Ive seen it work in some games, but not without time and effort equation, those would make the game only a MOG.
Time cant be fully ignored, its importance will still be there for multiple and obvious reasons.
And money, well, no way money can fit in. Dont get me started on "oh, what about illegal RMT" again...
Also, we hate grinding. Grinding as I said many times is just a side effect of developers inability to provide entertaining content to fill the time and effort activities players do that ALSO justify their progression in the persistent world.
When I mention time, there is a clear distinction between time and effort as an requisite equation of MMORPGs and grind. Grind is a by product and Im not trying to protect its existance or justify it. I dislike it as well. Im discussing this from the principle that no game should throw boring repetitive activities as a way to fill the creative void and development time of the game.
Now answer me this: Do you think you can have a Persistent world where people affect such world evolving along with it, without the chronological aspect?