I think the debate is best couched in terms of degrees as opposed to story versus no story. Certainly some story is important, but how much is required. On one end of the spectrum you have a purely action based game with fast pacing and minimal story, and on the other end you have a text based mmo that is all story. At what point along that spectrum is the 'average' gamer having fun?
The term 'gamer' or 'gaming' suggests to me a medium of interactive participation. Reading a novel (or watching a movie) on the other hand, while it can deeply engauge my imagination, feels more like a passive experience for me. Perhaps that is why the developers are now discussing the multiple player dialogue, an attempt to mediate between both experiences and introduce some kind of engaging amalgamation.
I remember playing very briefly in the God's and Heroes beta and thinking to myself that some of the quests were really well written, funny and witty. I was entertained. But when I got to the bottom of the quest information, it was still the same: kill ten rats. So while story can be fun, it can also be superfluous if the end result is the same.
On a final note, I'm not going to grandstand and say I won't play this game or I will play this game or bla bla bla if they exclude one feature and include another. I will judge the game based on it's totality. The story might be so well done that I will completely change my mind. I do that sometimes. But for all those that get excited and say, "If you don't like it then GTFO," I would just say relax, chill out. We are all just discussing our thoughts and sometimes we will agree and sometimes disagree. The game will succeed or fail on it's own merits irregardless of what we say in this thread.
I have no idea where this idea that people want a classless game comes from.
A small vocal minority that frequent board like this want "sandbox". The playing majority are in class based games and are happy. They are not posting "whaa whaa whaa I want" because they are in game.
This thread makes absolute sense. What kind of RPGer cares about story in their RPGS? Jesus what next...action-game players are going to care about the action in their games. MADNESS I SAY MADNESS!
I think you raise a good point but for the opposing side. MMORPG's have lately been dropping the RPG and are now often being referred to simply as MMO's.
To me this has been to the genre's detriment, so maybe SWTOR's heavy emphasis on story will bring back the rpg element and that will be a good thing. Personally, rp means something a little different to me than reading a story or picking a class. To me, rp'ing is assuming the role of a character that has a backstory that I created. It's like acting, where I become my character. When I played single player rpg's, I never felt like I was my character. The story was told to me, and so my avatar never developed a personality of her own.
Not looking at any of the previous replies, except the one stating how playing with alts will be the same, if it's ANYTHING like previous Knights of the Old Republic, or Mass Effect, and the E3 Preview said it was from what I saw, all quest have multiple choices, which impact future storyline arcs, ect, ect,
I can see the OP's point here. I am drawn to a player driven world. Giving players control of almost every aspect (i.e economy, city conrol blah blah) is something that should in my opionon set MMOs apart from co-op RPGs. Story is secondary only because it should, in theory, be subject to what the masses are doing in the world.
I am open to this new concept of Bioware's, but will as always be careful about getting excited. As is, I reserve judgement until I get my hands on a final copy.
Don't #%&* it up Bioware...or I'll do to you what I did to Galaxies....Buwahaha! /endjoke
It blows my mind how out of touch developers are with the MMO base. With literally the biggest IP in the world, their focus is NOT what gamers have hated about mmos for years. No no, they will contiune to shovel the bullshit, but will now have STORY! Are you kidding me? The level of absurdity is making my brain swell. People hate classes, they hate levels, they hate watered-down gameplay and grind. Does BioWare plan on address these -universal- complaints? Fuck no, to them the problem with MMOs is story? My mind is utterly blown. From forum to forum across the internet, followers are asking the same basic questions. Whats pvp like? Whats pve like? How are the classes? What is the item system like? Yet over and over, every single dev blog and release is about story. I just can't wrap my head around the unsurpassable amount of ignorance by the dev teams. You would think that seeing the failings of supposed "blockbuster" MMOs like Aoc and WAR would send a message, but no. Alas we continue to be insulted by developers who ignore the -KEY- issues people have with the genre, and instead focus on something utterly worthless. Newsflash jackasses, your customers arn't upset with lack of story, they are upset with the cookie cutter MMO template that money grubing bandwagoners like you continue to reiterate and expect to sell.
NEWSFLASH:Bioware's customers are fans of Knights of the Old Republic, which won game of the year and was a heavily STORY based game.
ANOTHER NEWSFLASH:
Second Life
Now go play it.
This game is based on an IP that has certain rules in it. To just allow free for all professions to be created would violate the cannon of the IP. There is good guys and bad guys and professions that align with each side. There is also a rich story that is very interesting to the fans of IP. These fans WANT to play the story of jedi,sith,bounty hunters,smugglers,troopers etc.etc.etc.The story is what got them interested in the IP in the first place. One of the major reasons that the last MMO based on Star Wars failed was because the rules of the IP were thrown out the window.
It blows my mind how out of touch developers are with the MMO base. With literally the biggest IP in the world, their focus is NOT what gamers have hated about mmos for years. No no, they will contiune to shovel the bullshit, but will now have STORY! Are you kidding me? The level of absurdity is making my brain swell. People hate classes, they hate levels, they hate watered-down gameplay and grind. Does BioWare plan on address these -universal- complaints? Fuck no, to them the problem with MMOs is story? My mind is utterly blown. From forum to forum across the internet, followers are asking the same basic questions. Whats pvp like? Whats pve like? How are the classes? What is the item system like? Yet over and over, every single dev blog and release is about story. I just can't wrap my head around the unsurpassable amount of ignorance by the dev teams. You would think that seeing the failings of supposed "blockbuster" MMOs like Aoc and WAR would send a message, but no. Alas we continue to be insulted by developers who ignore the -KEY- issues people have with the genre, and instead focus on something utterly worthless. Newsflash jackasses, your customers arn't upset with lack of story, they are upset with the cookie cutter MMO template that money grubing bandwagoners like you continue to reiterate and expect to sell.
Please don't whine and cry just because developers happen to be out of touch with YOU.
You hate classes, but many, many people love them. It helps them define themselves.
You hate levels, but lots of people like them. It's how they define how they're developing.
You hate what you call "watered-down gameplay and grind", and while I have no idea what you're talking about, I can confidently assume that many people like it.
It's becoming painfully obvious here that the problem is not with Bioware, but with you.
Tahah... coming to a TOR forum and saying nobodies gives a crap about story takes some guts, so hats off. I feel tempted to agree with him, merely because so many don't lol. But seriously, Laotse said, when too many agree on a matter, look into your heart. So I am at least cautious before just disagreeing.
Personally I care a lot for story, and I have little doubt the story of SWTOR will be a blast, and the game itself will be very enjoying to play.
HOWEVER, I have said many times I am not too sure if a MMO is not overburdened with too much story. Let's be honest here. I don't know who said it, but someone said after Homer's Troy and Ilias, every possible human story was told, in essence. And I regard that to be true. All real dramas - and all good stories are dramas - follow some quite simple patterns. Love and hate, trust and betrayal, asf. There really isnt much new under the sun.
I am sure, there are enough people in the MMO scene who would very much agree with the OP. And some who are fanboys of TOR because of the story promise NOW, who will at some point after release admit to be tired of the overboarding dominance of story. But that is something they have to find out by themselves.
Whether or not a large number can be kept playing TOR a longer time because of the promised story remains to be seen. I am not sure which side will be right in the end.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Im with you on this one, story is overrated and when it tries to be the focus the gameplay always suffers. Everyone that cries about stories are pve'rs that are content running raid after raid of the same boring content where the oh so great story becomes POINTLESS. Make the game good, forget the story.
Tahah... coming to a TOR forum and saying nobodies gives a crap about story takes some guts, so hats off. I feel tempted to agree with him, merely because so many don't lol. But seriously, Laotse said, when too many agree on a matter, look into your heart. So I am at least cautious before just disagreeing. Personally I care a lot for story, and I have little doubt the story of SWTOR will be a blast, and the game itself will be very enjoying to play. HOWEVER, I have said many times I am not too sure if a MMO is not overburdened with too much story. Let's be honest here. I don't know who said it, but someone said after Homer's Troy and Ilias, every possible human story was told, in essence. And I regard that to be true. All real dramas - and all good stories are dramas - follow some quite simple patterns. Love and hate, trust and betrayal, asf. There really isnt much new under the sun. I am sure, there are enough people in the MMO scene who would very much agree with the OP. And some who are fanboys of TOR because of the story promise NOW, who will at some point after release admit to be tired of the overboarding dominance of story. But that is something they have to find out by themselves. Whether or not a large number can be kept playing TOR a longer time because of the promised story remains to be seen. I am not sure which side will be right in the end.
Personally, I am thinking that -JUST- the story can't be the answer.
-IF- BioWare comes out with a game that has only story, and I mean -ONLY- story, even if it is hundreds of hours, the game will not fare well.
However if they manage to make the story as enjoyable as I think they will and then include the basic concepts of MMO End-Game play, like exploration, PVP and Raiding to a satisfying extent, I think the promise of Story is extremely good.
I, like many others obviously, care about story. And if the story makes the progression from 1-? enjoyable and a rich and exciting journey so that I can go through it feeling like I am part of that great story, then I will be happy. If I find out that at the end of it, there is nothing else to do, I'll likely play a few other classes for the stories, but that's it.
However, as they've said repeatedly, there will be things to do once you reach the top. PvP, Raiding etc. So I am hoping they do not just slap on some lazy half-assed stuff at the end, but make a solid end-game that can keep people interested until they arrive with a new expansion/add-on/mini-expansion for new story-content.
It blows my mind how out of touch developers are with the MMO base. With literally the biggest IP in the world, their focus is NOT what gamers have hated about mmos for years. No no, they will contiune to shovel the bullshit, but will now have STORY! Are you kidding me? The level of absurdity is making my brain swell. People hate classes, they hate levels, they hate watered-down gameplay and grind. Does BioWare plan on address these -universal- complaints? Fuck no, to them the problem with MMOs is story? My mind is utterly blown. From forum to forum across the internet, followers are asking the same basic questions. Whats pvp like? Whats pve like? How are the classes? What is the item system like? Yet over and over, every single dev blog and release is about story. I just can't wrap my head around the unsurpassable amount of ignorance by the dev teams. You would think that seeing the failings of supposed "blockbuster" MMOs like Aoc and WAR would send a message, but no. Alas we continue to be insulted by developers who ignore the -KEY- issues people have with the genre, and instead focus on something utterly worthless. Newsflash jackasses, your customers arn't upset with lack of story, they are upset with the cookie cutter MMO template that money grubing bandwagoners like you continue to reiterate and expect to sell.
Wow Drama much Netzoko? Lets point out that "MMOs like Aoc, and WAR" were never about "Story" so your throwing in useless points in your rather absurd post. Also players Do care about story, maybe you don't and just want the same old camp and grind? While your in your nerd rage tizzy lets point out also SW:TOR is not due out for another 2 possilby 3 years, there is not all that much info to build a solid case on, but that never stops some from trying to show themselves as much more knowledable then the developers.
You don't have to play SW:TOR if you don't want no ones twisting your arm so vote were it counts with your wallet, but we all know that dispite your Nerd rage "OMG the Dev are SO dumb" Drama post here you'll be the first one playing if it is good. Your just being a immature child in that you want all the information now 2 years in advance, and your scared shitless that SW:TOR might not be the dream MMO that fits into YOUR playing style and expectations (weither that be just another SWG PRE-CU/NGE clone etc like many others here seem to want or not)
If you really believe the Devs are "Money grubing bandwagoners" and "Jackasses" as you state then I really have to wonder why your following the game and posting as you have to know nothing you post here will have any effect at all.
I play EVE... and while very sandbox it is not remotely close to the kind of sandbox that people keep trying to push on the mmo genre.
A sandbox is a sandbox. Get over it.
Are you really just trying to troll or are you actually serious??? Have you played Ryzom??? Not even remotely the same style of game as EVE, but both are sandbox. Quit being such an asshat.
He's just trolling. He makes up his information as he goes along, posts it as proof,and insults a few posters for fun trying to get them riled up. Overall just a troll trying to get a cookie. Some people were born asshats, others had to work at it their entire lives.
It blows my mind how out of touch developers are with the MMO base. With literally the biggest IP in the world, their focus is NOT what gamers have hated about mmos for years. No no, they will contiune to shovel the bullshit, but will now have STORY! Are you kidding me? The level of absurdity is making my brain swell. People hate classes, they hate levels, they hate watered-down gameplay and grind. Does BioWare plan on address these -universal- complaints? Fuck no, to them the problem with MMOs is story? My mind is utterly blown. From forum to forum across the internet, followers are asking the same basic questions. Whats pvp like? Whats pve like? How are the classes? What is the item system like? Yet over and over, every single dev blog and release is about story. I just can't wrap my head around the unsurpassable amount of ignorance by the dev teams. You would think that seeing the failings of supposed "blockbuster" MMOs like Aoc and WAR would send a message, but no. Alas we continue to be insulted by developers who ignore the -KEY- issues people have with the genre, and instead focus on something utterly worthless. Newsflash jackasses, your customers arn't upset with lack of story, they are upset with the cookie cutter MMO template that money grubing bandwagoners like you continue to reiterate and expect to sell.
Please don't whine and cry just because developers happen to be out of touch with YOU.
You hate classes, but many, many people love them. It helps them define themselves.
You hate levels, but lots of people like them. It's how they define how they're developing.
You hate what you call "watered-down gameplay and grind", and while I have no idea what you're talking about, I can confidently assume that many people like it.
It's becoming painfully obvious here that the problem is not with Bioware, but with you.
QFT! There is a poll on the SW site and guess what the number one desired element is? The answer is STORY. Story makes a game and Bioware makes great games for the rest of us. I happen to like classes and levels. I also happe to be one of the several million owners of Mass Effect, Kotor, Kotor2, & Baldur's Gate. To the OP, you and the the other diehard sandbox fan boys will not be missed to a company that sells millions.
It blows my mind how out of touch developers are with the MMO base. With literally the biggest IP in the world, their focus is NOT what gamers have hated about mmos for years. No no, they will contiune to shovel the bullshit, but will now have STORY! Are you kidding me? The level of absurdity is making my brain swell. People hate classes, they hate levels, they hate watered-down gameplay and grind. Does BioWare plan on address these -universal- complaints? Fuck no, to them the problem with MMOs is story? My mind is utterly blown. From forum to forum across the internet, followers are asking the same basic questions. Whats pvp like? Whats pve like? How are the classes? What is the item system like? Yet over and over, every single dev blog and release is about story. I just can't wrap my head around the unsurpassable amount of ignorance by the dev teams. You would think that seeing the failings of supposed "blockbuster" MMOs like Aoc and WAR would send a message, but no. Alas we continue to be insulted by developers who ignore the -KEY- issues people have with the genre, and instead focus on something utterly worthless. Newsflash jackasses, your customers arn't upset with lack of story, they are upset with the cookie cutter MMO template that money grubing bandwagoners like you continue to reiterate and expect to sell.
You sound like that one guy who said UO was a terrible Idea and that people would absolutely NEVER move passed text based games and then it came out and u where like WTF?!?! Why are people liking it, so you got it and then you where like... Oh.
Somehow I struck a nerve. There's a lot of angry people here
This goes beyond this specific game. The point is simple; the genre is fading and going downhill. If you don't agree that's fine, but its safe the say the majority of posters on these forums have seen constant disappointment by the stream of cut-paste MMOs where developers refuse to fix the correct problems.
There's nothing wrong with story, but to overlook the pound after pound of tired out design techniques to instead fix something that doesn't need fixing is absurd. Dozens of car companies release cars with flat tires and shoddy transmissions. BioWare comes along, ignores those problems, and decides to market their new car with the key feature of new paint. It's ridiculous.
These companies ignore the big issues. They just need to rework their priorities.
Somehow I struck a nerve. There's a lot of angry people here It's a forum, that's kinda to be expected. :P This goes beyond this specific game. The point is simple; the genre is fading and going downhill. If you don't agree that's fine, but its safe the say the majority of posters on these forums have seen constant disappointment by the stream of cut-paste MMOs where developers refuse to fix the correct problems. See, here's the thing .. the "majority of forum posters" doesn't represent the "majority of MMO players". People rarely post on forums when they're happy about things, so the overwhelming majority (there's that word again) of people on sites like this are actually just the (very) vocal minority. Which is why developers don't often listen to forums. And even amongst this minority, most people in this thread disagree with you.
That should tell you how few people share the opinion in your OP. There's nothing wrong with story, but to overlook the pound after pound of tired out design techniques to instead fix something that doesn't need fixing is absurd. Dozens of car companies release cars with flat tires and shoddy transmissions. BioWare comes along, ignores those problems, and decides to market their new car with the key feature of new paint. It's ridiculous. These companies ignore the big issues. They just need to rework their priorities. I'm not sure where you're getting your information or on what basis you're drawing this conclusion about TOR, 'cos the developers have already said that they will have "endgame" stuff like raiding, PVP and crafting. The story element is being so well publicised mainly on the basis that it's something that no other MMO has these days. TOR is an attempt by Bioware to bring the RP back into the MMORPG; they're still going to have the MMO and the G.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Somehow I struck a nerve. There's a lot of angry people here This goes beyond this specific game. The point is simple; the genre is fading and going downhill. If you don't agree that's fine, but its safe the say the majority of posters on these forums have seen constant disappointment by the stream of cut-paste MMOs where developers refuse to fix the correct problems. There's nothing wrong with story, but to overlook the pound after pound of tired out design techniques to instead fix something that doesn't need fixing is absurd. Dozens of car companies release cars with flat tires and shoddy transmissions. BioWare comes along, ignores those problems, and decides to market their new car with the key feature of new paint. It's ridiculous. These companies ignore the big issues. They just need to rework their priorities.
It's terrible that you might have upset people with your troll post. I agree. But it seems they might have pushed your buttons in return since you seem to reply right back to them :.
Obviously since the game is released, and we know everything about it, since nothing is subject to change, you are entierly right. Everyone should than listen, remember, and follow as law because one person's opinion on things that are not even totally known, are now fact!
Anywayssss to step off my own trolling. Obviously certain MMOs are not doing that great. If a game has 300,000 people, That is perfectly fine. It's a good game. In reference to your last part. I, in my opinion, do not see bioware ignoring what you might call flat tires and shoddy transmissions, since those are real problems that everyone suffers from. A better analogy might be, instead of giving rims, surround sound speakers, etc. Obviously there are MMO's that are doing great. They have hundreds of thousands of subbers.
Again, your issues, with the rims, surround sound speakers, might not be something I, or others want in our MMO. But in exact oppasite to that, I see bioware is taking what every single MMO has done (the framework, the engire, all the normal parts of a car) and adding all that extra great stuff that makes it even better. Great paint, rims, spoilers, ground kits, etc. Of course, I will admit. They might do the story that is not fun or not one at all.. They could just push out another assembly line MMO.
Sadly, no matter what Any game company does, there will be people that will hate it because they can. They will dislike every little detail because it's not the type of MMO they like. That's fine. I dislike some MMOs such as AoC. But I won't or did not give my opinion as fact combined with unkowns about the game.
First off, the original poster needs to ease off of the curse words and hate filled sentences if he wants people to read his arguments.
Since I have gotten that out of the way, I keep seeing people talk about grind this grind that grind etc. I too enjoy a good story but these are online persistant games. How much longevity will a story driven game have if it was like some people want here with nothing you do more than once? That would be a very short lived MMORPG you pay monthly for. These games have to last for at least a little time period. World of Warcraft has absolutely no grind to it anymore. There is really nothing you have to grind for. If you feel that game is a grind what do you want?
I seriously want to know how YOU guys would design an online persistent world without ABSOLUTELY nothing being repeated. Please inform me because I am honestly curious. Even when I played Final Fantasy as a kid for the Nintendo, my hero had to "grind" on monsters to raise his stats to be able to kill the bosses. In RPGs it is called character progression. I think they need to start making more persistent online worlds that are first person shooters because there is definitely a big market for instant gratification games that are NOT rpgs. Stop turning rpgs into action games. Please just make both.
I don't care for story as much as game play but for many story is a big part. There are tons people that like to role play. The fact that it is Star Wars game does make the story more impotent for the fans. You go on about how people hate classes then go on about people asking about how they are in the game? If you don't want leveling and classes why not just play Fps on console or something. I enjoy leveling up and playing different classes as long as I'm having fun. How would you fix classes and leveling? I don't see any options I would like. I care more for the general game play. Sounds like your just burnt out like most gamers these days. I will say games do feel like they are lacking and have not been getting that much better other then graphics generally. I would say it has to do with most companies just want to make a buck rather then a good game or we have hit a plateau, but I don't know to be honest. I just hope this game isn't all hype like so many have been lately.
Comments
This thread makes absolute sense. What kind of RPGer cares about story in their RPGS?
Jesus what next...action-game players are going to care about the action in their games. MADNESS I SAY MADNESS!
Alltern8 Blog | Star Wars Space Combat and The Old Republic | Cryptic Studios - A Pre Post-Mortem | Klingon Preview, STO's Monster Play
I think the debate is best couched in terms of degrees as opposed to story versus no story. Certainly some story is important, but how much is required. On one end of the spectrum you have a purely action based game with fast pacing and minimal story, and on the other end you have a text based mmo that is all story. At what point along that spectrum is the 'average' gamer having fun?
The term 'gamer' or 'gaming' suggests to me a medium of interactive participation. Reading a novel (or watching a movie) on the other hand, while it can deeply engauge my imagination, feels more like a passive experience for me. Perhaps that is why the developers are now discussing the multiple player dialogue, an attempt to mediate between both experiences and introduce some kind of engaging amalgamation.
I remember playing very briefly in the God's and Heroes beta and thinking to myself that some of the quests were really well written, funny and witty. I was entertained. But when I got to the bottom of the quest information, it was still the same: kill ten rats. So while story can be fun, it can also be superfluous if the end result is the same.
On a final note, I'm not going to grandstand and say I won't play this game or I will play this game or bla bla bla if they exclude one feature and include another. I will judge the game based on it's totality. The story might be so well done that I will completely change my mind. I do that sometimes. But for all those that get excited and say, "If you don't like it then GTFO," I would just say relax, chill out. We are all just discussing our thoughts and sometimes we will agree and sometimes disagree. The game will succeed or fail on it's own merits irregardless of what we say in this thread.
I have no idea where this idea that people want a classless game comes from.
A small vocal minority that frequent board like this want "sandbox". The playing majority are in class based games and are happy. They are not posting "whaa whaa whaa I want" because they are in game.
I think you raise a good point but for the opposing side. MMORPG's have lately been dropping the RPG and are now often being referred to simply as MMO's.
To me this has been to the genre's detriment, so maybe SWTOR's heavy emphasis on story will bring back the rpg element and that will be a good thing. Personally, rp means something a little different to me than reading a story or picking a class. To me, rp'ing is assuming the role of a character that has a backstory that I created. It's like acting, where I become my character. When I played single player rpg's, I never felt like I was my character. The story was told to me, and so my avatar never developed a personality of her own.
When did we elect you as our spokesperson?
When did we elect you as our spokesperson?
There was a conference about it yesterday. I guess you weren't informed.
Not looking at any of the previous replies, except the one stating how playing with alts will be the same, if it's ANYTHING like previous Knights of the Old Republic, or Mass Effect, and the E3 Preview said it was from what I saw, all quest have multiple choices, which impact future storyline arcs, ect, ect,
When did we elect you as our spokesperson?
It was a coup..................
Totally off topic (as if there was one here worth discussing in the first place), but I've been meaning to say this for some time:
Best avatar, evar!
I can see the OP's point here. I am drawn to a player driven world. Giving players control of almost every aspect (i.e economy, city conrol blah blah) is something that should in my opionon set MMOs apart from co-op RPGs. Story is secondary only because it should, in theory, be subject to what the masses are doing in the world.
I am open to this new concept of Bioware's, but will as always be careful about getting excited. As is, I reserve judgement until I get my hands on a final copy.
Don't #%&* it up Bioware...or I'll do to you what I did to Galaxies....Buwahaha! /endjoke
Clever things.
NEWSFLASH:Bioware's customers are fans of Knights of the Old Republic, which won game of the year and was a heavily STORY based game.
ANOTHER NEWSFLASH:
Second Life
Now go play it.
This game is based on an IP that has certain rules in it. To just allow free for all professions to be created would violate the cannon of the IP. There is good guys and bad guys and professions that align with each side. There is also a rich story that is very interesting to the fans of IP. These fans WANT to play the story of jedi,sith,bounty hunters,smugglers,troopers etc.etc.etc.The story is what got them interested in the IP in the first place. One of the major reasons that the last MMO based on Star Wars failed was because the rules of the IP were thrown out the window.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
Please don't whine and cry just because developers happen to be out of touch with YOU.
You hate classes, but many, many people love them. It helps them define themselves.
You hate levels, but lots of people like them. It's how they define how they're developing.
You hate what you call "watered-down gameplay and grind", and while I have no idea what you're talking about, I can confidently assume that many people like it.
It's becoming painfully obvious here that the problem is not with Bioware, but with you.
Tahah... coming to a TOR forum and saying nobodies gives a crap about story takes some guts, so hats off. I feel tempted to agree with him, merely because so many don't lol. But seriously, Laotse said, when too many agree on a matter, look into your heart. So I am at least cautious before just disagreeing.
Personally I care a lot for story, and I have little doubt the story of SWTOR will be a blast, and the game itself will be very enjoying to play.
HOWEVER, I have said many times I am not too sure if a MMO is not overburdened with too much story. Let's be honest here. I don't know who said it, but someone said after Homer's Troy and Ilias, every possible human story was told, in essence. And I regard that to be true. All real dramas - and all good stories are dramas - follow some quite simple patterns. Love and hate, trust and betrayal, asf. There really isnt much new under the sun.
I am sure, there are enough people in the MMO scene who would very much agree with the OP. And some who are fanboys of TOR because of the story promise NOW, who will at some point after release admit to be tired of the overboarding dominance of story. But that is something they have to find out by themselves.
Whether or not a large number can be kept playing TOR a longer time because of the promised story remains to be seen. I am not sure which side will be right in the end.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Im with you on this one, story is overrated and when it tries to be the focus the gameplay always suffers. Everyone that cries about stories are pve'rs that are content running raid after raid of the same boring content where the oh so great story becomes POINTLESS. Make the game good, forget the story.
Personally, I am thinking that -JUST- the story can't be the answer.
-IF- BioWare comes out with a game that has only story, and I mean -ONLY- story, even if it is hundreds of hours, the game will not fare well.
However if they manage to make the story as enjoyable as I think they will and then include the basic concepts of MMO End-Game play, like exploration, PVP and Raiding to a satisfying extent, I think the promise of Story is extremely good.
I, like many others obviously, care about story. And if the story makes the progression from 1-? enjoyable and a rich and exciting journey so that I can go through it feeling like I am part of that great story, then I will be happy. If I find out that at the end of it, there is nothing else to do, I'll likely play a few other classes for the stories, but that's it.
However, as they've said repeatedly, there will be things to do once you reach the top. PvP, Raiding etc. So I am hoping they do not just slap on some lazy half-assed stuff at the end, but make a solid end-game that can keep people interested until they arrive with a new expansion/add-on/mini-expansion for new story-content.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
Wow Drama much Netzoko? Lets point out that "MMOs like Aoc, and WAR" were never about "Story" so your throwing in useless points in your rather absurd post. Also players Do care about story, maybe you don't and just want the same old camp and grind? While your in your nerd rage tizzy lets point out also SW:TOR is not due out for another 2 possilby 3 years, there is not all that much info to build a solid case on, but that never stops some from trying to show themselves as much more knowledable then the developers.
You don't have to play SW:TOR if you don't want no ones twisting your arm so vote were it counts with your wallet, but we all know that dispite your Nerd rage "OMG the Dev are SO dumb" Drama post here you'll be the first one playing if it is good. Your just being a immature child in that you want all the information now 2 years in advance, and your scared shitless that SW:TOR might not be the dream MMO that fits into YOUR playing style and expectations (weither that be just another SWG PRE-CU/NGE clone etc like many others here seem to want or not)
If you really believe the Devs are "Money grubing bandwagoners" and "Jackasses" as you state then I really have to wonder why your following the game and posting as you have to know nothing you post here will have any effect at all.
A sandbox is a sandbox. Get over it.
Are you really just trying to troll or are you actually serious??? Have you played Ryzom??? Not even remotely the same style of game as EVE, but both are sandbox. Quit being such an asshat.
He's just trolling. He makes up his information as he goes along, posts it as proof,and insults a few posters for fun trying to get them riled up. Overall just a troll trying to get a cookie. Some people were born asshats, others had to work at it their entire lives.
Please don't whine and cry just because developers happen to be out of touch with YOU.
You hate classes, but many, many people love them. It helps them define themselves.
You hate levels, but lots of people like them. It's how they define how they're developing.
You hate what you call "watered-down gameplay and grind", and while I have no idea what you're talking about, I can confidently assume that many people like it.
It's becoming painfully obvious here that the problem is not with Bioware, but with you.
QFT! There is a poll on the SW site and guess what the number one desired element is? The answer is STORY. Story makes a game and Bioware makes great games for the rest of us. I happen to like classes and levels. I also happe to be one of the several million owners of Mass Effect, Kotor, Kotor2, & Baldur's Gate. To the OP, you and the the other diehard sandbox fan boys will not be missed to a company that sells millions.
some make it a specialty to insult peoples on forums thinking their smarter than everyone else .
You sound like that one guy who said UO was a terrible Idea and that people would absolutely NEVER move passed text based games and then it came out and u where like WTF?!?! Why are people liking it, so you got it and then you where like... Oh.
Somehow I struck a nerve. There's a lot of angry people here
This goes beyond this specific game. The point is simple; the genre is fading and going downhill. If you don't agree that's fine, but its safe the say the majority of posters on these forums have seen constant disappointment by the stream of cut-paste MMOs where developers refuse to fix the correct problems.
There's nothing wrong with story, but to overlook the pound after pound of tired out design techniques to instead fix something that doesn't need fixing is absurd. Dozens of car companies release cars with flat tires and shoddy transmissions. BioWare comes along, ignores those problems, and decides to market their new car with the key feature of new paint. It's ridiculous.
These companies ignore the big issues. They just need to rework their priorities.
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Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Obviously since the game is released, and we know everything about it, since nothing is subject to change, you are entierly right. Everyone should than listen, remember, and follow as law because one person's opinion on things that are not even totally known, are now fact!
Anywayssss to step off my own trolling. Obviously certain MMOs are not doing that great. If a game has 300,000 people, That is perfectly fine. It's a good game. In reference to your last part. I, in my opinion, do not see bioware ignoring what you might call flat tires and shoddy transmissions, since those are real problems that everyone suffers from. A better analogy might be, instead of giving rims, surround sound speakers, etc. Obviously there are MMO's that are doing great. They have hundreds of thousands of subbers.
Again, your issues, with the rims, surround sound speakers, might not be something I, or others want in our MMO. But in exact oppasite to that, I see bioware is taking what every single MMO has done (the framework, the engire, all the normal parts of a car) and adding all that extra great stuff that makes it even better. Great paint, rims, spoilers, ground kits, etc. Of course, I will admit. They might do the story that is not fun or not one at all.. They could just push out another assembly line MMO.
Sadly, no matter what Any game company does, there will be people that will hate it because they can. They will dislike every little detail because it's not the type of MMO they like. That's fine. I dislike some MMOs such as AoC. But I won't or did not give my opinion as fact combined with unkowns about the game.
First off, the original poster needs to ease off of the curse words and hate filled sentences if he wants people to read his arguments.
Since I have gotten that out of the way, I keep seeing people talk about grind this grind that grind etc. I too enjoy a good story but these are online persistant games. How much longevity will a story driven game have if it was like some people want here with nothing you do more than once? That would be a very short lived MMORPG you pay monthly for. These games have to last for at least a little time period. World of Warcraft has absolutely no grind to it anymore. There is really nothing you have to grind for. If you feel that game is a grind what do you want?
I seriously want to know how YOU guys would design an online persistent world without ABSOLUTELY nothing being repeated. Please inform me because I am honestly curious. Even when I played Final Fantasy as a kid for the Nintendo, my hero had to "grind" on monsters to raise his stats to be able to kill the bosses. In RPGs it is called character progression. I think they need to start making more persistent online worlds that are first person shooters because there is definitely a big market for instant gratification games that are NOT rpgs. Stop turning rpgs into action games. Please just make both.
***Raises Hand*** Hi everyone, my name is Nobody and I give a crap about story.
I don't care for story as much as game play but for many story is a big part. There are tons people that like to role play. The fact that it is Star Wars game does make the story more impotent for the fans. You go on about how people hate classes then go on about people asking about how they are in the game? If you don't want leveling and classes why not just play Fps on console or something. I enjoy leveling up and playing different classes as long as I'm having fun. How would you fix classes and leveling? I don't see any options I would like. I care more for the general game play. Sounds like your just burnt out like most gamers these days. I will say games do feel like they are lacking and have not been getting that much better other then graphics generally. I would say it has to do with most companies just want to make a buck rather then a good game or we have hit a plateau, but I don't know to be honest. I just hope this game isn't all hype like so many have been lately.