I'm sure there are others in this thread, but I just want to thank you for a reasonable response to the topic and issues raised. I get so sick of seeing people attacked for hating/loving something about MMO's. Seriously guys, he was ranting because Bioware has been promoting "the story" so much he's sick of it...why? because he doesn't care about the story as much as other aspects of MMORPG's. There are a lot of people that would agree with him and a lot that will disagree. Discuss the topic if you will, but please leave out the "stfu, gtfo, don't buy it," and etc...
Speaking only for myself, if the OP had chosen to pursue a path of "I would like to know more about the other aspects of this game besides the story; let's have a reasonable discussion about that," I would have been happy to have such a discussion. However, the OP came across in a manner which indicates that his preference is the only one that matters.
Certainly, there will be those who agree with the OP and those who disagree. Personally, I place a high value on "the story," which is why I enjoy playing LoTRO. I do not expect that everyone will place the same value on various aspects of gameplay that I do (For instance, I could give a rip about PvP - my interests lie primarily in graphics quality, actual gameplay mechanics, the story, and the crafting), but I am very much inclined to tell someone to eff off when they present themselves in a manner that indicates that they have absolutely no respect for the idea that everyone places different value on different aspects of the game.
I actually hope that the OP and others who do not place the same value on the story that I do will at least give the game a try. It's quite possible that they - and I - will not like the game when it is released. But the fact is that right now, we really do not have enough information about this game to start "ranting" about anything. The game is still in development and will be for some time. In my admittedly limited experience with MMOGs (I have only been playing MMOs for about 5 or 6 years. Compared to many folks who post here on this site, that's not very much at all.), the best way to express one's concerns while a game is still in development (or even after it launches, to be honest) is to become a member of that game's community and calmly and rationally explain your position on that game's community forums.
While the saying goes "you can get more with a kind word and a two by four than you can with just a kind word," sometimes the two by four really is not necessary.
"You are obviously confusing a mature rating with actual maturity." -Asherman
Maybe MMO is not your genre, go play Modern Warfare...or something you can be all twitchy...and rank up all night. This is seriously getting tired. -Ranyr
Seriously guys, he was ranting because Bioware has been promoting "the story" so much he's sick of it...why? because he doesn't care about the story as much as other aspects of MMORPG's. There are a lot of people that would agree with him and a lot that will disagree. Discuss the topic if you will, but please leave out the "stfu, gtfo, don't buy it," and etc...unless you are getting paid to respond that way by Bioware--then I can understand.
When Twilight came out i didn't imidiately go on movie boards ranting about how this tweenie bopper shit should never have been made and how this is so not a real vampire movie true to the vampire lore. I simply chose not to see it because i had no interest in it.
When AoC was released i knew the game would suck for me having been in beta and tried the combat system i did not like at all. Did i go to the AoC boards to start making posts how aweful this game was after release? No i simply just avoided the title and played something else
When SWG came out and i tried my friends account i knew the game was not for me for a lot of reasons coming from EQ. Did i go to the boards ranting about the things i disliked about SWG? No i simply avoided the title
I think you get the point by now.
If you read about something that is a deal breaker for you then let it go.
There is absolutely no reason to rant over a game you have spent ZERO money, time or effort on. Not every game released has to cater to you or the OP. Nobody is forcing anybody to spend money on this title, which makes a rant about it idiotic. If you don't like a product then don't spend money on it and move on.
Why spend a second of your life complaining about things that is completely within your control to avoid. It's wasted effort but to each it's own i guess.
Well, heck, if I was a crafty design officer at Bioware I would easily create a server for people like the OP. Just remove all dialouge and options and plop the player down in the game world. They can run around pvp each other, then bop to various areas with mobs waiting for players to level up with and drop loot. North American server name: SAMEASOTHER MMOS EU Server Name: DARKFALL Problem Solved
ROFLMAO ...awesome post just awesome funniest thing I have read all day. I look forward to your next one.
It blows my mind how out of touch developers are with the MMO base. With literally the biggest IP in the world, their focus is NOT what gamers have hated about mmos for years. No no, they will contiune to shovel the bullshit, but will now have STORY! Are you kidding me? The level of absurdity is making my brain swell. People hate classes, they hate levels, they hate watered-down gameplay and grind. Does BioWare plan on address these -universal- complaints? Fuck no, to them the problem with MMOs is story? My mind is utterly blown. From forum to forum across the internet, followers are asking the same basic questions. Whats pvp like? Whats pve like? How are the classes? What is the item system like? Yet over and over, every single dev blog and release is about story. I just can't wrap my head around the unsurpassable amount of ignorance by the dev teams. You would think that seeing the failings of supposed "blockbuster" MMOs like Aoc and WAR would send a message, but no. Alas we continue to be insulted by developers who ignore the -KEY- issues people have with the genre, and instead focus on something utterly worthless. Newsflash jackasses, your customers arn't upset with lack of story, they are upset with the cookie cutter MMO template that money grubing bandwagoners like you continue to reiterate and expect to sell.
You need to wake up.
The mmo-RPG (with heavy emphasis on RPG) genre has been needing something like this for a very, very long time. One of the key elements to a RPG game is story, and that has been sorely lost in the genre until this point.
It's silly to even attempt to compare this game to the ones you named because this game is doing something different from EVERY other MMO out there.
It's completely ironic that your talking about "being upset with the cookie cutter MMO template" when this game is NOT following the same template, and actually doing something no other MMO's have until this point by giving the game a story, and you complain?????
People are complaining about linear storylines as well? Are you crazy? They straight up said you are going to have multple paths and have to make decisions along the way that will change the story - just like Bioware does in ALL of their games.
We're also talking about BIOWARE here. Bioware is a company known and loved FOR PUTTING AMAZING STORYS IN THEIR GAME! You have the nerve to speak for the public by saying "nobody gives a crap about story" - obviously the millions of Bioware fans out there love story. They are giving the fans what they want, and doing what they do best - your just too blind to see it.
You are obviously completely ignorant of who Bioware is, what kind of game they make, and how many millions of fans they have out there. Most of the games they have created are considered classics in the eyes of games for years now. From Baldurs Gate, to Mass Effect.
You dont even have sufficient information to complain about the stuff that your complaining about. Which goes a long, long way to show your IQ is lacking.
Newsflash Simple Jack - You contradict the heck out of yourself and complain about a game that might give you enough story - hundreds of hours PER CLASS with original storys for which - which gives each class UNIQUENESS that was never experienced before in an MMO - which means enough content - to actually make the subscription fee worth paying.
SpyridonZ people like you who can mind read via the internet scare me and frankly take the fun out of posting (read as get outta my head)... j/k
Excellent points in your post Spy
Anyway i would have to agree with everything in this post. I think the OP is looking for an MMO - Sandbox style (aka multi-directional grind). The OP also seems to want 1 char that does everything in the game does seem a bit SWGish to me 32 professions anyone? + he seems to want Multiple classes in 1 (doesn't seem to like the idea of a re-roll to get new classes). He seems to want to be able to make 1 character be a Bounty Hunter, Jedi, Sith Lord, Storm Trooper, who smuggles for the Hutts. Who then dances in a cantina on the weekends while running blockades and killing smugglers during the weekday....
* I wonder if his BH self can turn in his Smuggler self and get that bounty. I bet his cantina dancer self told the BH where the smuggler would be* ...... yeah i went there ........again j/k
I think the OP is looking for SW:TOR to infact be more like SWG only better in every way but with some story just enough to give it the Star Wars flavor and then let the player do whatever they want. The OP clearly doesn't like story driven games (no RPG or RPG lite just an MMO). As many have stated including Bioware this will not be that game. Sorry OP you will have to wait a while longer.
I don't think the OP's ideas are bad i just think beating a drum for that type game in this forum is not a good idea maybe in the general discussion forum or in the SWG: What i would like to see if they make an SWG2 game topic. To the OP in the future, you would have more level-headed responses if you start your thread with a bit more neutrality or at the very least less incendiary wording.
To the OP in the future, you would have more level-headed responses if you start your thread with a bit more neutrality or at the very least less incendiary wording. /carry on
That's definately true. If I see someone acting a fool I tend to slip in a little bit of their own medecine for a little bit of humor (as i did towards the end) lol.
I'm seriously confused on what the goal of this post is though. Anyone who knows who Bioware is should know that complaining about this sort of thing is futile, and should know exactly what to expect - which nullifys most of the entire post.
It's also opening Pandoras box to make topics trying to speak for everyone.
If the argument was presented in a fashion of "I do not like storyline so I am upset with the direction of this game" it would be a completely different story.
Quite ironic that the OP claims ignorance on Biowares part, when there are millions upon millions of Bioware fans that know & love what they do, and there are millions upon millions of traditional RPG fans that have been waiting for something like this for years. I would be willing to bet that nearly everyone on here knows -someone- who has avoided MMO's BECAUSE they are a grind and have no story - which again brings up complete irony - the OP does not want a grind and actually playing thru a story and having control over your roleplaying experience is REMOVING the grind. You only have to focus on what decisions you want to make, and your next goal - NOT "grinding out that next level".
Aside from FF12, I have NEVER heard ANYONE call a traditional RPG a grind. So calling an MMO based upon traditional RPGs a grind is a VERY VERY weak argument, to say the least,. Just the same as its a horrible argument to complain to Bioware about a "grind" when they are taking more measurable steps to remove a grind then any MMO developer has in years - maybe ever has.
The OP would have recieved a much better reaction and made a whole lot more sense and had a much more viable argument, if he stated "I'm unhappy with Bioware replacing the grind with a story because not all players like storys". Because, like it or not, having a story IS removing the grind.
Even complaints such as that would have been silly, becuase Bioware is doing what they do, and it should be expected.... but at least it would have been much more constructive then this.
Also..wth you mean by grind. Cause lately everyone use the word grind for anything. Saying grind grind grind just cause is grind. WTF is grind? Work a bit on your char to develop it? Maybe you want /sit in midle of a town and wait for the game to happen?
Whats grind to you..explainz plx cause I dont understand.
What is grind for me maybe aint grind for you.
Plus, wth do you know more than all this other mmo fans who got no clue about the game still. But somehow Jesus Mary Jane told you something and this game is a grind. Personaly I'm still waiting to see how any company will develop an MMO without grind...ohh and btw... whats grind again?
It blows my mind how out of touch developers are with the MMO base. With literally the biggest IP in the world, their focus is NOT what gamers have hated about mmos for years. No no, they will contiune to shovel the bullshit, but will now have STORY! Are you kidding me? The level of absurdity is making my brain swell. People hate classes, they hate levels, they hate watered-down gameplay and grind. Does BioWare plan on address these -universal- complaints? Fuck no, to them the problem with MMOs is story? My mind is utterly blown. From forum to forum across the internet, followers are asking the same basic questions. Whats pvp like? Whats pve like? How are the classes? What is the item system like? Yet over and over, every single dev blog and release is about story. I just can't wrap my head around the unsurpassable amount of ignorance by the dev teams. You would think that seeing the failings of supposed "blockbuster" MMOs like Aoc and WAR would send a message, but no. Alas we continue to be insulted by developers who ignore the -KEY- issues people have with the genre, and instead focus on something utterly worthless. Newsflash jackasses, your customers arn't upset with lack of story, they are upset with the cookie cutter MMO template that money grubing bandwagoners like you continue to reiterate and expect to sell.
It seems to be you that is out of touch. Every time someone tries to make a game that moves away from these concepts the game tanks. People love classes, level, quests, storyline and yes, even grinding. The one thing we all love more than those things though? bitching about those things.
I like story, I like classes and I like lvls. Also..wth you mean by grind. Cause lately everyone use the word grind for anything. Saying grind grind grind just cause is grind. WTF is grind? Work a bit on your char to develop it? Maybe you want /sit in midle of a town and wait for the game to happen? Whats grind to you..explainz plx cause I dont understand. What is grind for me maybe aint grind for you. Plus, wth do you know more than all this other mmo fans who got no clue about the game still. But somehow Jesus Mary Jane told you something and this game is a grind. Personaly I'm still waiting to see how any company will develop an MMO without grind...ohh and btw... whats grind again?
Grind typically means having to do something repetitive, over and over, just to be able to progress, such as "grinding mobs" which you all fight the same way over and over, or "grinding quests" which is repeatedly doing them over and over, and the problem with MMO questing is that they are all the same with no reason - kill 15 guys, loot 10 things, deliver this, pick up 5 of these.
Which is why, having an actual story, with goals other then "kill 5", where you actually make decisions that alter your gameplay and develop your character would NOT be a grind.
As I said, aside from FF12, I have never heard anyone call a traditional RPG a grind. The primary difference is traditional RPG's tell a story. Traditional MMO's dont tell an in-depth story - they are DESIGNED around being a grind, only to keep people playing for years. Like WoW - daily quests are a grind to the max.
If they deliver what they claim - over 100+ hours of individual storylines for EVERY CLASS - that would be giving players enough content to keep playing WITHOUT grinding.
Originally posted by SpyridonZ Grind typically means having to do something repetitive that you don't enjoy, over and over, just to be able to progress, such as "grinding mobs" which you all fight the same way over and over, or "grinding quests" which is repeatedly doing them over and over, and the problem with MMO questing is that they are all the same with no reason - kill 15 guys, loot 10 things, deliver this, pick up 5 of these. Which is why, having an actual story, with goals other then "kill 5", where you actually make decisions that alter your gameplay and develop your character would NOT be a grind. As I said, aside from FF12, I have never heard anyone call a traditional RPG a grind. The primary difference is traditional RPG's tell a story. Traditional MMO's dont tell an in-depth story - they are DESIGNED around being a grind, only to keep people playing for years. Like WoW - daily quests are a grind to the max. If they deliver what they claim - over 100+ hours of individual storylines for EVERY CLASS - that would be giving players enough content to keep playing WITHOUT grinding.
I agree with your post, but with that one tiny addendum.
There's a fine (and very subjective) line between "grind" and "content"
I wouldn't find camping a spawn point for hours to gain XP enjoyable; it would be a grind for me .. but there are some players that do enjoy that kind of activity and would consider it to be content.Same with questing, crafting, etc .. and I've absolutely no doubt that a week after release, the people who don't enjoy the storytelling aspect of TOR will be calling it "the storygrind".
I actually hope that you can get to max level just by killing mobs for XP; I'd never do it myself (questjunkie) but it wouldn't hurt to have that extra option for the people who do enjoy what I would consider to be "grinding mobs".
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
levels and grinding, its very hard to have one without the other, which is why i prefer games where levelling, doesnt exist, half the time it just promotes the epeen ego's who has the biggest and the bestest, im better than you because im level xx and your only level x kind of thing. personally i think any mmo in order to be fun, must either promote group play - cooperative or pvp, and not be about the grind/levels etc. quests are okay in themselves, but as an adjunct to creative game play rather than an attempt to define it - ideas that may seem fun to 8 out of 10 people means that 2 of the 10 thought it was boring, which to me is a fail.
Originally posted by SpyridonZ Grind typically means having to do something repetitive that you don't enjoy, over and over, just to be able to progress, such as "grinding mobs" which you all fight the same way over and over, or "grinding quests" which is repeatedly doing them over and over, and the problem with MMO questing is that they are all the same with no reason - kill 15 guys, loot 10 things, deliver this, pick up 5 of these. Which is why, having an actual story, with goals other then "kill 5", where you actually make decisions that alter your gameplay and develop your character would NOT be a grind. As I said, aside from FF12, I have never heard anyone call a traditional RPG a grind. The primary difference is traditional RPG's tell a story. Traditional MMO's dont tell an in-depth story - they are DESIGNED around being a grind, only to keep people playing for years. Like WoW - daily quests are a grind to the max. If they deliver what they claim - over 100+ hours of individual storylines for EVERY CLASS - that would be giving players enough content to keep playing WITHOUT grinding.
I agree with your post, but with that one tiny addendum.
There's a fine (and very subjective) line between "grind" and "content"
I wouldn't find camping a spawn point for hours to gain XP enjoyable; it would be a grind for me .. but there are some players that do enjoy that kind of activity and would consider it to be content.Same with questing, crafting, etc .. and I've absolutely no doubt that a week after release, the people who don't enjoy the storytelling aspect of TOR will be calling it "the storygrind".
I actually hope that you can get to max level just by killing mobs for XP; I'd never do it myself (questjunkie) but it wouldn't hurt to have that extra option for the people who do enjoy what I would consider to be "grinding mobs".
But there is one flaw with that way of thinking - unique storylines where your choices make a difference is missing the "repetitive" aspect - which is the key in making something a grind. You nullified everything in that sentence before the part u highlighted =p
Not enjoying something alone does not make it a grind. That just means you dont like it.
I can understand if people dont like story based games, and that's fine. Many people dont like MGS, many people love it. But it would be silly to call MGS a story-grind just because it is story based.
No one cares about the story in MMOs currently because nothing what you do ever has consequences and changes your character in any way - which SWTOR is going to change.
Currently you just pick up all the quests and go grind levels.
SWTOR is most likely to change all that which - I would say about time!
Playing a game with no story is like watching a movie with no plot, and without a plot all you is a bunch of special effects. And if I wanna watch a movie with no plot and crazy special effect i will wait for the next Jason Statham movie. Wether or not I was givien one or simply made one up for RP purposes.
I think unique stories are gonna put the RP back in MMORPG.
There are times when one must ask themselves is it my passion that truly frightens you? Or your own?
levels and grinding, its very hard to have one without the other, which is why i prefer games where levelling, doesnt exist, half the time it just promotes the epeen ego's who has the biggest and the bestest, im better than you because im level xx and your only level x kind of thing. personally i think any mmo in order to be fun, must either promote group play - cooperative or pvp, and not be about the grind/levels etc. quests are okay in themselves, but as an adjunct to creative game play rather than an attempt to define it - ideas that may seem fun to 8 out of 10 people means that 2 of the 10 thought it was boring, which to me is a fail.
No game out there will ever satisfy 10/10 people. Thats well understood in the realm of game development.
Even in MMO games where leveling does not exist, there is still a grind (except maybe planetside, depending on ur opinion of a grind) - it's just a skill grind instead of a lvl grind. The question for MMO's is - is the grind tolerable, or entirely too slow?
The problem with traditional MMO questing is it loses all the things that make "quests" enjoyable in traditional RPG's. No high-quality FMV scenes, no long-term well-told storys, you only do quests for the rewards - not to develop your character or change the world or anything. In the classic Bioware games, your choices make you good or bad, give you intricate relationships with different characters, they decide your friends or enemies, they unlock complete areas or storylines that you would not do otherwise, they are completely optional and will not "hurt" you if you decide to do them.
MMO's are missing all of that. You simply do the quests for the XP and the reward - and they even tell you the reward ahead of time. This makes quests "work" and not "role-playing".
The biggest change that the MMO quests have on the game is the reputation - which is just for another reward.
It's completely dumbed-down in comparison. If it was not for the character development, it would be a fallacy to even call these games mmo-RPG's. One thing is for sure though - "questing" is not roleplaying, nor is it comparable to classic-RPG storytelling.
Not even AoC's first 20 levels - although that is the closest it has gotten to this point. In AoC, your storyline is forced. You have no choices in the manner, no development, nowhere near as much freedom, no significance. Only chat choices that have no significance because the end of the coversation is always the same.
Speaking of making things work and not role-playing... thats pretty much MMO's goal at the moment. Questing is work - take a job you want and do it for the reward. Daily quests are even more-so - repetitive and you have to do them daily or you will fall behind everyone else. Raids are again, even more so - your forced to attend at a certain time, raid daily, and you have to fight to keep your position, and if you do not go, you wont get your gear.
MMO's should be more like a game, and less like a job.
It blows my mind how out of touch developers are with the MMO base. With literally the biggest IP in the world, their focus is NOT what gamers have hated about mmos for years. No no, they will contiune to shovel the bullshit, but will now have STORY! Are you kidding me? The level of absurdity is making my brain swell. People hate classes, they hate levels, they hate watered-down gameplay and grind. Does BioWare plan on address these -universal- complaints? Fuck no, to them the problem with MMOs is story? My mind is utterly blown. From forum to forum across the internet, followers are asking the same basic questions. Whats pvp like? Whats pve like? How are the classes? What is the item system like? Yet over and over, every single dev blog and release is about story. I just can't wrap my head around the unsurpassable amount of ignorance by the dev teams. You would think that seeing the failings of supposed "blockbuster" MMOs like Aoc and WAR would send a message, but no. Alas we continue to be insulted by developers who ignore the -KEY- issues people have with the genre, and instead focus on something utterly worthless. Newsflash jackasses, your customers arn't upset with lack of story, they are upset with the cookie cutter MMO template that money grubing bandwagoners like you continue to reiterate and expect to sell.
speak for yourself
I agree about story being too much
but if people didn't like grinds then they'd play mmos without grinds and not mmos with tons of grinds
but they're doing the opposite of what they reportedly like and doing what they supposedly dislike
Just when you think you have all the answers, I change the questions.
There aren't any mmo's without grinds. They don't exist. Anywhere. And they never will.
We're about to see two sandbox, classless mmo's come out before (hopefully) the end of the year. Mortal Online and Earthrise, basically the two last real hopes for the non-linear genre. There's still going to be forms of grinds in them. You can't avoid it.
There are grinds in single-player games too. They may not really seem like it, but they're there.
Originally posted by SpyridonZ But there is one flaw with that way of thinking - unique storylines where your choices make a difference is missing the "repetitive" aspect - which is the key in making something a grind. You nullified everything in that sentence before the part u highlighted =p Not enjoying something alone does not make it a grind. That just means you dont like it. I can understand if people dont like story based games, and that's fine. Many people dont like MGS, many people love it. But it would be silly to call MGS a story-grind just because it is story based.
I don't agree that "grinds" have to be purely repetitive.
The important aspect is how it "feels" to the player.
Technically, it's not repetitive when you get a quest to kill 10 wolves followed by a quest to go raid a mine (by killing lots of kobolds and looting their ore) then deliver a package to another NPC, but to people who don't like questing, they'll "feel" it's a grind because the underlying aspect is that they're just running between quest NPCs and quest objectives.
The same will likely be true with TOR's storyline; it'll be a linear progression (albeit with branching based on player choice) that they have to follow to reach "the end", and if they don't enjoy the journey then it will feel like just as much of a grind to them as sitting in a camp killing mobs for XP does to me.
Different strokes for different folks and all that.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Greetings, Netzoko. I thought that I should take this opportunity to help you make your post sound a little less like an upset troll rant and share a little more of your own opinion in a less hostile manner.
It blows my mind how developers make games without me, Netzoko, in mind while doing so. With possibly the biggest IP in the world, their focus is NOT what I, Netzoko have hated about mmos for years. No no, they will contiune to develop the game as they see fit, but will now have STORY! Are you kidding me? The level of absurdity is making my brain swell. I hate classes, I hate levels, I hate watered-down gameplay and grind. Does BioWare plan on address these personal complaints that I have about the MMO genre? Heck no, to them the way to create their own MMO is to focus on story? My mind is utterly blown. From forum to forum across the internet, followers are asking the same basic questions. Whats pvp like? Whats pve like? How are the classes? What is the item system like? Yet over and over, every single dev blog and release is about story. I just can't wrap my head around the unsurpassable amount of information not being released that I, Netzoko would like to know about. You would think that seeing the failings of supposed "blockbuster" MMOs like Aoc and WAR would send a message, but maybe it has? I don't know, I haven't played the game yet, what do you all think? Alas I [apparently] continue to be insulted by developers who ignore the -KEY- issues I have with the genre, and instead focus on something that I consider utterly worthless. So why am I following the game... hmm.. I dunno? Newsflash Bioware, I am not upset with lack of story, I am upset with the cookie cutter MMO template that money grubing bandwagoners like you might be continuing to reiterate and expect to sell. But I'm not really sure at this point, because I don't know anything about the game besides it having story!
Originally posted by SpyridonZ But there is one flaw with that way of thinking - unique storylines where your choices make a difference is missing the "repetitive" aspect - which is the key in making something a grind. You nullified everything in that sentence before the part u highlighted =p Not enjoying something alone does not make it a grind. That just means you dont like it. I can understand if people dont like story based games, and that's fine. Many people dont like MGS, many people love it. But it would be silly to call MGS a story-grind just because it is story based.
I don't agree that "grinds" have to be purely repetitive.
The important aspect is how it "feels" to the player.
Technically, it's not repetitive when you get a quest to kill 10 wolves followed by a quest to go raid a mine (by killing lots of kobolds and looting their ore) then deliver a package to another NPC, but to people who don't like questing, they'll "feel" it's a grind because the underlying aspect is that they're just running between quest NPCs and quest objectives.
The same will likely be true with TOR's storyline; it'll be a linear progression (albeit with branching based on player choice) that they have to follow to reach "the end", and if they don't enjoy the journey then it will feel like just as much of a grind to them as sitting in a camp killing mobs for XP does to me.
Different strokes for different folks and all that.
Well, id argue that it is repetitive if you have to fight the wolves and kobolds in the same exact way - which is how it is in most MMO's.
Also, the problem is there is only a small number of different goals you have, and no significance to them. Kill quests, collect quests, delivery quests - those 3 things make up the majority of MMO quests. That's why it "feels" like a grind - its the same thing over and over. Whether your shooting bears, goblins, spiders, kobolds - if you just have to press 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, repeat - its going to get repetitive.
Killing someone for a quest should have some significance - not just for a reward. Doing quests for a certain NPC should make a difference. You shouldnt be required to do quests just to get enough XP to progress - they should be optional and have a mix of rewards and consequences. All these things make things feel less repetitive and like you actually have an effect on gameplay.
I agree with you when you say different strokes for different folks, but I think your terminology is a bit off - if they dont enjoy the journey it wont feel FUN, but I wouldnt call it a grind. Like I said, you dont see people upset because traditional RPG's are "grinds" - you simply find people that like or dislike RPG's. Same as MGS.
Something can be unenjoyable, without being a grind.
It blows my mind how out of touch developers are with the MMO base. With literally the biggest IP in the world, their focus is NOT what gamers have hated about mmos for years. No no, they will contiune to shovel the bullshit, but will now have STORY! Are you kidding me? The level of absurdity is making my brain swell. People hate classes, they hate levels, they hate watered-down gameplay and grind. Does BioWare plan on address these -universal- complaints? Fuck no, to them the problem with MMOs is story? My mind is utterly blown. From forum to forum across the internet, followers are asking the same basic questions. Whats pvp like? Whats pve like? How are the classes? What is the item system like? Yet over and over, every single dev blog and release is about story. I just can't wrap my head around the unsurpassable amount of ignorance by the dev teams. You would think that seeing the failings of supposed "blockbuster" MMOs like Aoc and WAR would send a message, but no. Alas we continue to be insulted by developers who ignore the -KEY- issues people have with the genre, and instead focus on something utterly worthless. Newsflash jackasses, your customers arn't upset with lack of story, they are upset with the cookie cutter MMO template that money grubing bandwagoners like you continue to reiterate and expect to sell.
Amazing post! I couldn't agree more.
Some people in the TOR forums just don't get it. Sure I can't deprive people the right to think WoW is a great mmo or that linear stories from Bioware are great. And people have the right to love levels as much as they want. And classes. And raids.
But the OP is not saying stories are bad or not needed. The problem with Bioware is that they are slapping stories on the old tried WoW formula. This is not about crystal balls and no need to wait for beta or launch. This is just plain obvious.
Facts:
Bioware's CEO loves WoW
Bioware said they want WoW's succes
Bioware said it is all about heroes and stories (and no moisture farmers)
Bioware said that players want to be lead around and not having to find the action.
Bioware announces endgame as raids. 8 classes. Levels.
What is the novelty here? Stories? Stories are not new. They are just taking solo RPG and add a subscription fee by adding multiplayer content.
For every launch of mmos I see the same fans charge in and defend the company, IP, game under development:
1. Where is your crystal ball. Maybe it will contain X and Y.
2. Wait for Closed Beta.
3. (in closed beta) Wait for Open Beta.
4. (in open beta). Wait for the miracle patch.
5. Games aren't launched bug free or perfect. SWG which launched a decade ago didn't include space, so why should there be space now ten years after at launch?
6. Wait for the expansion.
7. One year after launch. Sure the game launched too early and had XXXXXXXXX problems, and lost XXXXXXXXX amount of players, but look how it is picking up and is an all new, better game.
8. Wait for patch 1.6
9. The free trial will help getting new players..
Truth is that Bioware is developing a game for the lowest common denominator. And since this is a discussion forum people have the right to voice concerns.
This is not about disgruntled vets from SWG. Most of us don't want a copy of that game. But launching mmos without the massive part to GET a lot of box sales is sick.
MMO industry reminds me of pump and dump stock schemes. Look at AoC. They pumped their game with LIES and hype. Sold close to a million boxes and then gave up on the game and is now making the next one.
Bioware stick to story and the eq / wow script. Good for them and their sales. Judging from this and other forums, the SW name will sell a lot of boxes. But it is not great for the mmorpg industry nor for hte players!
Originally posted by SpyridonZ I agree with you when you say different strokes for different folks, but I think your terminology is a bit off - if they dont enjoy the journey it wont feel FUN, but I wouldnt call it a grind. Like I said, you dont see people upset because traditional RPG's are "grinds" - you simply find people that like or dislike RPG's. Same as MGS.
I don't think either of us is going to be swayed from our opinions on what does and doesn't constitute a grind, so best to agree to disagree on that score.
One thing that this thread has brought to my attention; there are a lot of people in the MMORPG.com community who don't seem to be RPG fans, but I suppose that shouldn't be surprising since for the past 10 years the games have been more MMOG than MMORPG.
Bioware seem to be doing what Blizzard did; lure fans from another genre into MMOs. Blizzard did it for the RTS fans via their well-recognised IP. Bioware is aiming to do it for the RPG/Star Wars fans with the Storyline elements and IP.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
It blows my mind how out of touch developers are with the MMO base. With literally the biggest IP in the world, their focus is NOT what gamers have hated about mmos for years. No no, they will contiune to shovel the bullshit, but will now have STORY! Are you kidding me? The level of absurdity is making my brain swell. People hate classes, they hate levels, they hate watered-down gameplay and grind. Does BioWare plan on address these -universal- complaints? Fuck no, to them the problem with MMOs is story? My mind is utterly blown. From forum to forum across the internet, followers are asking the same basic questions. Whats pvp like? Whats pve like? How are the classes? What is the item system like? Yet over and over, every single dev blog and release is about story. I just can't wrap my head around the unsurpassable amount of ignorance by the dev teams. You would think that seeing the failings of supposed "blockbuster" MMOs like Aoc and WAR would send a message, but no. Alas we continue to be insulted by developers who ignore the -KEY- issues people have with the genre, and instead focus on something utterly worthless. Newsflash jackasses, your customers arn't upset with lack of story, they are upset with the cookie cutter MMO template that money grubing bandwagoners like you continue to reiterate and expect to sell.
Amazing post! I couldn't agree more.
Some people in the TOR forums just don't get it. Sure I can't deprive people the right to think WoW is a great mmo or that linear stories from Bioware are great. And people have the right to love levels as much as they want. And classes. And raids.
But the OP is not saying stories are bad or not needed. The problem with Bioware is that they are slapping stories on the old tried WoW formula. This is not about crystal balls and no need to wait for beta or launch. This is just plain obvious.
Facts:
Bioware's CEO loves WoW
Bioware said they want WoW's succes
Bioware said it is all about heroes and stories (and no moisture farmers)
Bioware said that players want to be lead around and not having to find the action.
Bioware announces endgame as raids. 8 classes. Levels.
What is the novelty here? Stories? Stories are not new. They are just taking solo RPG and add a subscription fee by adding multiplayer content.
For every launch of mmos I see the same fans charge in and defend the company, IP, game under development:
1. Where is your crystal ball. Maybe it will contain X and Y.
2. Wait for Closed Beta.
3. (in closed beta) Wait for Open Beta.
4. (in open beta). Wait for the miracle patch.
5. Games aren't launched bug free or perfect. SWG which launched a decade ago didn't include space, so why should there be space now ten years after at launch?
6. Wait for the expansion.
7. One year after launch. Sure the game launched too early and had XXXXXXXXX problems, and lost XXXXXXXXX amount of players, but look how it is picking up and is an all new, better game.
8. Wait for patch 1.6
9. The free trial will help getting new players..
Truth is that Bioware is developing a game for the lowest common denominator. And since this is a discussion forum people have the right to voice concerns.
This is not about disgruntled vets from SWG. Most of us don't want a copy of that game. But launching mmos without the massive part to GET a lot of box sales is sick.
MMO industry reminds me of pump and dump stock schemes. Look at AoC. They pumped their game with LIES and hype. Sold close to a million boxes and then gave up on the game and is now making the next one.
Bioware stick to story and the eq / wow script. Good for them and their sales. Judging from this and other forums, the SW name will sell a lot of boxes. But it is not great for the mmorpg industry nor for hte players!
Actually, I'm not too in to Star Wars. I did not even play SWG.
But I'm a huge fan of Bioware and what they do.
About the judgement of their gameplay mechanics, past those involved in the storyline, they have not even released the details. They have only mentioned the storyline differences as that is the primary focus of this game, and all Biowares games. So your judgement of comparisons to WoW is speculation.
If your a fan of Biowares past games, you will likely be looking forward to this game. If not, you wont.
If your a fan of traditionial MMO's and storylines, you will likely be looking forward to this game. If not, you wont.
Originally posted by SpyridonZ I agree with you when you say different strokes for different folks, but I think your terminology is a bit off - if they dont enjoy the journey it wont feel FUN, but I wouldnt call it a grind. Like I said, you dont see people upset because traditional RPG's are "grinds" - you simply find people that like or dislike RPG's. Same as MGS.
I don't think either of us is going to be swayed from our opinions on what does and doesn't constitute a grind, so best to agree to disagree on that score.
One thing that this thread has brought to my attention; there are a lot of people in the MMORPG.com community who don't seem to be RPG fans, but I suppose that shouldn't be surprising since for the past 10 years the games have been more MMOG than MMORPG.
Bioware seem to be doing what Blizzard did; lure fans from another genre into MMOs. Blizzard did it for the RTS fans via their well-recognised IP. Bioware is aiming to do it for the RPG/Star Wars fans with the Storyline elements and IP.
Agreed to disagree =D (although I do agree with most of what your saying - just the small differences have disagreement.)
Yep, it does seem many do not seem to be RPG fans. Ironically, that fact backs up sides of the arguments in this topic lol - first because it shows that many of the current MMO gamers are not interested in stories and are more focused on the gameplay, and mine because it emphasises how many RPG fans do not like MMO's due to the missing RPG elements.
I think something that most of the people here may need to follow along and agree to disagree. As was said many times, different audiences are looking for different things. Healthy debate is one thing, but just keep in mind that its very unlikely anyone will change anyone elses opinion, and no one person could speak for all.
Originally posted by SpyridonZ I think something that most of the people here may need to follow along and agree to disagree. As was said many times, different audiences are looking for different things. Healthy debate is one thing, but just keep in mind that its very unlikely anyone will change anyone elses opinion, and no one person could speak for all.
Yup, it's going to be interesting; we know that the forumites are the vocal minority in preferences for sandboxes and open PvP and stuff, but the story aspect is uncharted waters; it's never been truly attempted before and for all the debate there's really no way to be sure how it's going to be received by the majority of MMO players until they actually release it.
The only somewhat comparable element is Tortage in AoC; I've heard it mentioned that Tortage was the principle reason that AoC sold so well in the first month prior to hemorhagging subs once people started to hit level 20 and got into the more traditional part of the game.
If true, that bodes very well for TORs story aspect, especially as it bypasses the main complaint about Tortage; that it was lacking in replay value because most professions had mainly identical experiences with only a couple of variations and that once you hit level 20 the game completely changed.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
MMO's have evolved over the years, and I hope the gameplay here will evolve as well.
But for me, when all is said and done, it's about STORY. Unveiling the story is important to me. If I'm gonna be killing 10 boar, I want it to be to progress the story, and I want to feel involved with the story. Otherwise, it's just empty click click click after a while.
Comments
Speaking only for myself, if the OP had chosen to pursue a path of "I would like to know more about the other aspects of this game besides the story; let's have a reasonable discussion about that," I would have been happy to have such a discussion. However, the OP came across in a manner which indicates that his preference is the only one that matters.
Certainly, there will be those who agree with the OP and those who disagree. Personally, I place a high value on "the story," which is why I enjoy playing LoTRO. I do not expect that everyone will place the same value on various aspects of gameplay that I do (For instance, I could give a rip about PvP - my interests lie primarily in graphics quality, actual gameplay mechanics, the story, and the crafting), but I am very much inclined to tell someone to eff off when they present themselves in a manner that indicates that they have absolutely no respect for the idea that everyone places different value on different aspects of the game.
I actually hope that the OP and others who do not place the same value on the story that I do will at least give the game a try. It's quite possible that they - and I - will not like the game when it is released. But the fact is that right now, we really do not have enough information about this game to start "ranting" about anything. The game is still in development and will be for some time. In my admittedly limited experience with MMOGs (I have only been playing MMOs for about 5 or 6 years. Compared to many folks who post here on this site, that's not very much at all.), the best way to express one's concerns while a game is still in development (or even after it launches, to be honest) is to become a member of that game's community and calmly and rationally explain your position on that game's community forums.
While the saying goes "you can get more with a kind word and a two by four than you can with just a kind word," sometimes the two by four really is not necessary.
EDITED: Bloody laptop keyboards.
Firebrand Art
"You are obviously confusing a mature rating with actual maturity." -Asherman
Maybe MMO is not your genre, go play Modern Warfare...or something you can be all twitchy...and rank up all night. This is seriously getting tired. -Ranyr
When Twilight came out i didn't imidiately go on movie boards ranting about how this tweenie bopper shit should never have been made and how this is so not a real vampire movie true to the vampire lore. I simply chose not to see it because i had no interest in it.
When AoC was released i knew the game would suck for me having been in beta and tried the combat system i did not like at all. Did i go to the AoC boards to start making posts how aweful this game was after release? No i simply just avoided the title and played something else
When SWG came out and i tried my friends account i knew the game was not for me for a lot of reasons coming from EQ. Did i go to the boards ranting about the things i disliked about SWG? No i simply avoided the title
I think you get the point by now.
If you read about something that is a deal breaker for you then let it go.
There is absolutely no reason to rant over a game you have spent ZERO money, time or effort on. Not every game released has to cater to you or the OP. Nobody is forcing anybody to spend money on this title, which makes a rant about it idiotic. If you don't like a product then don't spend money on it and move on.
Why spend a second of your life complaining about things that is completely within your control to avoid. It's wasted effort but to each it's own i guess.
ROFLMAO ...awesome post just awesome funniest thing I have read all day. I look forward to your next one.
You need to wake up.
The mmo-RPG (with heavy emphasis on RPG) genre has been needing something like this for a very, very long time. One of the key elements to a RPG game is story, and that has been sorely lost in the genre until this point.
It's silly to even attempt to compare this game to the ones you named because this game is doing something different from EVERY other MMO out there.
It's completely ironic that your talking about "being upset with the cookie cutter MMO template" when this game is NOT following the same template, and actually doing something no other MMO's have until this point by giving the game a story, and you complain?????
People are complaining about linear storylines as well? Are you crazy? They straight up said you are going to have multple paths and have to make decisions along the way that will change the story - just like Bioware does in ALL of their games.
We're also talking about BIOWARE here. Bioware is a company known and loved FOR PUTTING AMAZING STORYS IN THEIR GAME! You have the nerve to speak for the public by saying "nobody gives a crap about story" - obviously the millions of Bioware fans out there love story. They are giving the fans what they want, and doing what they do best - your just too blind to see it.
You are obviously completely ignorant of who Bioware is, what kind of game they make, and how many millions of fans they have out there. Most of the games they have created are considered classics in the eyes of games for years now. From Baldurs Gate, to Mass Effect.
You dont even have sufficient information to complain about the stuff that your complaining about. Which goes a long, long way to show your IQ is lacking.
Newsflash Simple Jack - You contradict the heck out of yourself and complain about a game that might give you enough story - hundreds of hours PER CLASS with original storys for which - which gives each class UNIQUENESS that was never experienced before in an MMO - which means enough content - to actually make the subscription fee worth paying.
SpyridonZ people like you who can mind read via the internet scare me and frankly take the fun out of posting (read as get outta my head)... j/k
Excellent points in your post Spy
Anyway i would have to agree with everything in this post. I think the OP is looking for an MMO - Sandbox style (aka multi-directional grind). The OP also seems to want 1 char that does everything in the game does seem a bit SWGish to me 32 professions anyone? + he seems to want Multiple classes in 1 (doesn't seem to like the idea of a re-roll to get new classes). He seems to want to be able to make 1 character be a Bounty Hunter, Jedi, Sith Lord, Storm Trooper, who smuggles for the Hutts. Who then dances in a cantina on the weekends while running blockades and killing smugglers during the weekday....
* I wonder if his BH self can turn in his Smuggler self and get that bounty. I bet his cantina dancer self told the BH where the smuggler would be* ...... yeah i went there
........again j/k
I think the OP is looking for SW:TOR to infact be more like SWG only better in every way but with some story just enough to give it the Star Wars flavor and then let the player do whatever they want. The OP clearly doesn't like story driven games (no RPG or RPG lite just an MMO). As many have stated including Bioware this will not be that game. Sorry OP you will have to wait a while longer.
I don't think the OP's ideas are bad i just think beating a drum for that type game in this forum is not a good idea maybe in the general discussion forum or in the SWG: What i would like to see if they make an SWG2 game topic. To the OP in the future, you would have more level-headed responses if you start your thread with a bit more neutrality or at the very least less incendiary wording.
/carry on
That's definately true. If I see someone acting a fool I tend to slip in a little bit of their own medecine for a little bit of humor (as i did towards the end) lol.
I'm seriously confused on what the goal of this post is though. Anyone who knows who Bioware is should know that complaining about this sort of thing is futile, and should know exactly what to expect - which nullifys most of the entire post.
It's also opening Pandoras box to make topics trying to speak for everyone.
If the argument was presented in a fashion of "I do not like storyline so I am upset with the direction of this game" it would be a completely different story.
Quite ironic that the OP claims ignorance on Biowares part, when there are millions upon millions of Bioware fans that know & love what they do, and there are millions upon millions of traditional RPG fans that have been waiting for something like this for years. I would be willing to bet that nearly everyone on here knows -someone- who has avoided MMO's BECAUSE they are a grind and have no story - which again brings up complete irony - the OP does not want a grind and actually playing thru a story and having control over your roleplaying experience is REMOVING the grind. You only have to focus on what decisions you want to make, and your next goal - NOT "grinding out that next level".
Aside from FF12, I have NEVER heard ANYONE call a traditional RPG a grind. So calling an MMO based upon traditional RPGs a grind is a VERY VERY weak argument, to say the least,. Just the same as its a horrible argument to complain to Bioware about a "grind" when they are taking more measurable steps to remove a grind then any MMO developer has in years - maybe ever has.
The OP would have recieved a much better reaction and made a whole lot more sense and had a much more viable argument, if he stated "I'm unhappy with Bioware replacing the grind with a story because not all players like storys". Because, like it or not, having a story IS removing the grind.
Even complaints such as that would have been silly, becuase Bioware is doing what they do, and it should be expected.... but at least it would have been much more constructive then this.
I like story, I like classes and I like lvls.
Also..wth you mean by grind. Cause lately everyone use the word grind for anything. Saying grind grind grind just cause is grind. WTF is grind? Work a bit on your char to develop it? Maybe you want /sit in midle of a town and wait for the game to happen?
Whats grind to you..explainz plx cause I dont understand.
What is grind for me maybe aint grind for you.
Plus, wth do you know more than all this other mmo fans who got no clue about the game still. But somehow Jesus Mary Jane told you something and this game is a grind. Personaly I'm still waiting to see how any company will develop an MMO without grind...ohh and btw... whats grind again?
It seems to be you that is out of touch. Every time someone tries to make a game that moves away from these concepts the game tanks. People love classes, level, quests, storyline and yes, even grinding. The one thing we all love more than those things though? bitching about those things.
Grind typically means having to do something repetitive, over and over, just to be able to progress, such as "grinding mobs" which you all fight the same way over and over, or "grinding quests" which is repeatedly doing them over and over, and the problem with MMO questing is that they are all the same with no reason - kill 15 guys, loot 10 things, deliver this, pick up 5 of these.
Which is why, having an actual story, with goals other then "kill 5", where you actually make decisions that alter your gameplay and develop your character would NOT be a grind.
As I said, aside from FF12, I have never heard anyone call a traditional RPG a grind. The primary difference is traditional RPG's tell a story. Traditional MMO's dont tell an in-depth story - they are DESIGNED around being a grind, only to keep people playing for years. Like WoW - daily quests are a grind to the max.
If they deliver what they claim - over 100+ hours of individual storylines for EVERY CLASS - that would be giving players enough content to keep playing WITHOUT grinding.
I agree with your post, but with that one tiny addendum.
There's a fine (and very subjective) line between "grind" and "content"
I wouldn't find camping a spawn point for hours to gain XP enjoyable; it would be a grind for me .. but there are some players that do enjoy that kind of activity and would consider it to be content. Same with questing, crafting, etc .. and I've absolutely no doubt that a week after release, the people who don't enjoy the storytelling aspect of TOR will be calling it "the storygrind".
I actually hope that you can get to max level just by killing mobs for XP; I'd never do it myself (questjunkie) but it wouldn't hurt to have that extra option for the people who do enjoy what I would consider to be "grinding mobs".
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
levels and grinding, its very hard to have one without the other, which is why i prefer games where levelling, doesnt exist, half the time it just promotes the epeen ego's who has the biggest and the bestest, im better than you because im level xx and your only level x kind of thing. personally i think any mmo in order to be fun, must either promote group play - cooperative or pvp, and not be about the grind/levels etc. quests are okay in themselves, but as an adjunct to creative game play rather than an attempt to define it - ideas that may seem fun to 8 out of 10 people means that 2 of the 10 thought it was boring, which to me is a fail.
I agree with your post, but with that one tiny addendum.
There's a fine (and very subjective) line between "grind" and "content"
I wouldn't find camping a spawn point for hours to gain XP enjoyable; it would be a grind for me .. but there are some players that do enjoy that kind of activity and would consider it to be content. Same with questing, crafting, etc .. and I've absolutely no doubt that a week after release, the people who don't enjoy the storytelling aspect of TOR will be calling it "the storygrind".
I actually hope that you can get to max level just by killing mobs for XP; I'd never do it myself (questjunkie) but it wouldn't hurt to have that extra option for the people who do enjoy what I would consider to be "grinding mobs".
But there is one flaw with that way of thinking - unique storylines where your choices make a difference is missing the "repetitive" aspect - which is the key in making something a grind. You nullified everything in that sentence before the part u highlighted =p
Not enjoying something alone does not make it a grind. That just means you dont like it.
I can understand if people dont like story based games, and that's fine. Many people dont like MGS, many people love it. But it would be silly to call MGS a story-grind just because it is story based.
No one cares about the story in MMOs currently because nothing what you do ever has consequences and changes your character in any way - which SWTOR is going to change.
Currently you just pick up all the quests and go grind levels.
SWTOR is most likely to change all that which - I would say about time!
Playing a game with no story is like watching a movie with no plot, and without a plot all you is a bunch of special effects. And if I wanna watch a movie with no plot and crazy special effect i will wait for the next Jason Statham movie. Wether or not I was givien one or simply made one up for RP purposes.
I think unique stories are gonna put the RP back in MMORPG.
There are times when one must ask themselves is it my passion that truly frightens you? Or your own?
No game out there will ever satisfy 10/10 people. Thats well understood in the realm of game development.
Even in MMO games where leveling does not exist, there is still a grind (except maybe planetside, depending on ur opinion of a grind) - it's just a skill grind instead of a lvl grind. The question for MMO's is - is the grind tolerable, or entirely too slow?
The problem with traditional MMO questing is it loses all the things that make "quests" enjoyable in traditional RPG's. No high-quality FMV scenes, no long-term well-told storys, you only do quests for the rewards - not to develop your character or change the world or anything. In the classic Bioware games, your choices make you good or bad, give you intricate relationships with different characters, they decide your friends or enemies, they unlock complete areas or storylines that you would not do otherwise, they are completely optional and will not "hurt" you if you decide to do them.
MMO's are missing all of that. You simply do the quests for the XP and the reward - and they even tell you the reward ahead of time. This makes quests "work" and not "role-playing".
The biggest change that the MMO quests have on the game is the reputation - which is just for another reward.
It's completely dumbed-down in comparison. If it was not for the character development, it would be a fallacy to even call these games mmo-RPG's. One thing is for sure though - "questing" is not roleplaying, nor is it comparable to classic-RPG storytelling.
Not even AoC's first 20 levels - although that is the closest it has gotten to this point. In AoC, your storyline is forced. You have no choices in the manner, no development, nowhere near as much freedom, no significance. Only chat choices that have no significance because the end of the coversation is always the same.
Speaking of making things work and not role-playing... thats pretty much MMO's goal at the moment. Questing is work - take a job you want and do it for the reward. Daily quests are even more-so - repetitive and you have to do them daily or you will fall behind everyone else. Raids are again, even more so - your forced to attend at a certain time, raid daily, and you have to fight to keep your position, and if you do not go, you wont get your gear.
MMO's should be more like a game, and less like a job.
speak for yourself
I agree about story being too much
but if people didn't like grinds then they'd play mmos without grinds and not mmos with tons of grinds
but they're doing the opposite of what they reportedly like and doing what they supposedly dislike
Just when you think you have all the answers, I change the questions.
There aren't any mmo's without grinds. They don't exist. Anywhere. And they never will.
We're about to see two sandbox, classless mmo's come out before (hopefully) the end of the year. Mortal Online and Earthrise, basically the two last real hopes for the non-linear genre. There's still going to be forms of grinds in them. You can't avoid it.
There are grinds in single-player games too. They may not really seem like it, but they're there.
I don't agree that "grinds" have to be purely repetitive.
The important aspect is how it "feels" to the player.
Technically, it's not repetitive when you get a quest to kill 10 wolves followed by a quest to go raid a mine (by killing lots of kobolds and looting their ore) then deliver a package to another NPC, but to people who don't like questing, they'll "feel" it's a grind because the underlying aspect is that they're just running between quest NPCs and quest objectives.
The same will likely be true with TOR's storyline; it'll be a linear progression (albeit with branching based on player choice) that they have to follow to reach "the end", and if they don't enjoy the journey then it will feel like just as much of a grind to them as sitting in a camp killing mobs for XP does to me.
Different strokes for different folks and all that.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
You're welcome.
dude, that was epic. i love you.
I don't agree that "grinds" have to be purely repetitive.
The important aspect is how it "feels" to the player.
Technically, it's not repetitive when you get a quest to kill 10 wolves followed by a quest to go raid a mine (by killing lots of kobolds and looting their ore) then deliver a package to another NPC, but to people who don't like questing, they'll "feel" it's a grind because the underlying aspect is that they're just running between quest NPCs and quest objectives.
The same will likely be true with TOR's storyline; it'll be a linear progression (albeit with branching based on player choice) that they have to follow to reach "the end", and if they don't enjoy the journey then it will feel like just as much of a grind to them as sitting in a camp killing mobs for XP does to me.
Different strokes for different folks and all that.
Well, id argue that it is repetitive if you have to fight the wolves and kobolds in the same exact way - which is how it is in most MMO's.
Also, the problem is there is only a small number of different goals you have, and no significance to them. Kill quests, collect quests, delivery quests - those 3 things make up the majority of MMO quests. That's why it "feels" like a grind - its the same thing over and over. Whether your shooting bears, goblins, spiders, kobolds - if you just have to press 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, repeat - its going to get repetitive.
Killing someone for a quest should have some significance - not just for a reward. Doing quests for a certain NPC should make a difference. You shouldnt be required to do quests just to get enough XP to progress - they should be optional and have a mix of rewards and consequences. All these things make things feel less repetitive and like you actually have an effect on gameplay.
I agree with you when you say different strokes for different folks, but I think your terminology is a bit off - if they dont enjoy the journey it wont feel FUN, but I wouldnt call it a grind. Like I said, you dont see people upset because traditional RPG's are "grinds" - you simply find people that like or dislike RPG's. Same as MGS.
Something can be unenjoyable, without being a grind.
Amazing post! I couldn't agree more.
Some people in the TOR forums just don't get it. Sure I can't deprive people the right to think WoW is a great mmo or that linear stories from Bioware are great. And people have the right to love levels as much as they want. And classes. And raids.
But the OP is not saying stories are bad or not needed. The problem with Bioware is that they are slapping stories on the old tried WoW formula. This is not about crystal balls and no need to wait for beta or launch. This is just plain obvious.
Facts:
Bioware's CEO loves WoW
Bioware said they want WoW's succes
Bioware said it is all about heroes and stories (and no moisture farmers)
Bioware said that players want to be lead around and not having to find the action.
Bioware announces endgame as raids. 8 classes. Levels.
What is the novelty here? Stories? Stories are not new. They are just taking solo RPG and add a subscription fee by adding multiplayer content.
For every launch of mmos I see the same fans charge in and defend the company, IP, game under development:
1. Where is your crystal ball. Maybe it will contain X and Y.
2. Wait for Closed Beta.
3. (in closed beta) Wait for Open Beta.
4. (in open beta). Wait for the miracle patch.
5. Games aren't launched bug free or perfect. SWG which launched a decade ago didn't include space, so why should there be space now ten years after at launch?
6. Wait for the expansion.
7. One year after launch. Sure the game launched too early and had XXXXXXXXX problems, and lost XXXXXXXXX amount of players, but look how it is picking up and is an all new, better game.
8. Wait for patch 1.6
9. The free trial will help getting new players..
Truth is that Bioware is developing a game for the lowest common denominator. And since this is a discussion forum people have the right to voice concerns.
This is not about disgruntled vets from SWG. Most of us don't want a copy of that game. But launching mmos without the massive part to GET a lot of box sales is sick.
MMO industry reminds me of pump and dump stock schemes. Look at AoC. They pumped their game with LIES and hype. Sold close to a million boxes and then gave up on the game and is now making the next one.
Bioware stick to story and the eq / wow script. Good for them and their sales. Judging from this and other forums, the SW name will sell a lot of boxes. But it is not great for the mmorpg industry nor for hte players!
____________________________
CASUAL CONFESSIONS - Draccan's blog
____________________________
I don't think either of us is going to be swayed from our opinions on what does and doesn't constitute a grind, so best to agree to disagree on that score.
One thing that this thread has brought to my attention; there are a lot of people in the MMORPG.com community who don't seem to be RPG fans, but I suppose that shouldn't be surprising since for the past 10 years the games have been more MMOG than MMORPG.
Bioware seem to be doing what Blizzard did; lure fans from another genre into MMOs. Blizzard did it for the RTS fans via their well-recognised IP. Bioware is aiming to do it for the RPG/Star Wars fans with the Storyline elements and IP.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Amazing post! I couldn't agree more.
Some people in the TOR forums just don't get it. Sure I can't deprive people the right to think WoW is a great mmo or that linear stories from Bioware are great. And people have the right to love levels as much as they want. And classes. And raids.
But the OP is not saying stories are bad or not needed. The problem with Bioware is that they are slapping stories on the old tried WoW formula. This is not about crystal balls and no need to wait for beta or launch. This is just plain obvious.
Facts:
Bioware's CEO loves WoW
Bioware said they want WoW's succes
Bioware said it is all about heroes and stories (and no moisture farmers)
Bioware said that players want to be lead around and not having to find the action.
Bioware announces endgame as raids. 8 classes. Levels.
What is the novelty here? Stories? Stories are not new. They are just taking solo RPG and add a subscription fee by adding multiplayer content.
For every launch of mmos I see the same fans charge in and defend the company, IP, game under development:
1. Where is your crystal ball. Maybe it will contain X and Y.
2. Wait for Closed Beta.
3. (in closed beta) Wait for Open Beta.
4. (in open beta). Wait for the miracle patch.
5. Games aren't launched bug free or perfect. SWG which launched a decade ago didn't include space, so why should there be space now ten years after at launch?
6. Wait for the expansion.
7. One year after launch. Sure the game launched too early and had XXXXXXXXX problems, and lost XXXXXXXXX amount of players, but look how it is picking up and is an all new, better game.
8. Wait for patch 1.6
9. The free trial will help getting new players..
Truth is that Bioware is developing a game for the lowest common denominator. And since this is a discussion forum people have the right to voice concerns.
This is not about disgruntled vets from SWG. Most of us don't want a copy of that game. But launching mmos without the massive part to GET a lot of box sales is sick.
MMO industry reminds me of pump and dump stock schemes. Look at AoC. They pumped their game with LIES and hype. Sold close to a million boxes and then gave up on the game and is now making the next one.
Bioware stick to story and the eq / wow script. Good for them and their sales. Judging from this and other forums, the SW name will sell a lot of boxes. But it is not great for the mmorpg industry nor for hte players!
Actually, I'm not too in to Star Wars. I did not even play SWG.
But I'm a huge fan of Bioware and what they do.
About the judgement of their gameplay mechanics, past those involved in the storyline, they have not even released the details. They have only mentioned the storyline differences as that is the primary focus of this game, and all Biowares games. So your judgement of comparisons to WoW is speculation.
If your a fan of Biowares past games, you will likely be looking forward to this game. If not, you wont.
If your a fan of traditionial MMO's and storylines, you will likely be looking forward to this game. If not, you wont.
It's that simple.
I don't think either of us is going to be swayed from our opinions on what does and doesn't constitute a grind, so best to agree to disagree on that score.
One thing that this thread has brought to my attention; there are a lot of people in the MMORPG.com community who don't seem to be RPG fans, but I suppose that shouldn't be surprising since for the past 10 years the games have been more MMOG than MMORPG.
Bioware seem to be doing what Blizzard did; lure fans from another genre into MMOs. Blizzard did it for the RTS fans via their well-recognised IP. Bioware is aiming to do it for the RPG/Star Wars fans with the Storyline elements and IP.
Agreed to disagree =D (although I do agree with most of what your saying - just the small differences have disagreement.)
Yep, it does seem many do not seem to be RPG fans. Ironically, that fact backs up sides of the arguments in this topic lol - first because it shows that many of the current MMO gamers are not interested in stories and are more focused on the gameplay, and mine because it emphasises how many RPG fans do not like MMO's due to the missing RPG elements.
I think something that most of the people here may need to follow along and agree to disagree. As was said many times, different audiences are looking for different things. Healthy debate is one thing, but just keep in mind that its very unlikely anyone will change anyone elses opinion, and no one person could speak for all.
Yup, it's going to be interesting; we know that the forumites are the vocal minority in preferences for sandboxes and open PvP and stuff, but the story aspect is uncharted waters; it's never been truly attempted before and for all the debate there's really no way to be sure how it's going to be received by the majority of MMO players until they actually release it.
The only somewhat comparable element is Tortage in AoC; I've heard it mentioned that Tortage was the principle reason that AoC sold so well in the first month prior to hemorhagging subs once people started to hit level 20 and got into the more traditional part of the game.
If true, that bodes very well for TORs story aspect, especially as it bypasses the main complaint about Tortage; that it was lacking in replay value because most professions had mainly identical experiences with only a couple of variations and that once you hit level 20 the game completely changed.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
MMO's have evolved over the years, and I hope the gameplay here will evolve as well.
But for me, when all is said and done, it's about STORY. Unveiling the story is important to me. If I'm gonna be killing 10 boar, I want it to be to progress the story, and I want to feel involved with the story. Otherwise, it's just empty click click click after a while.