Originally posted by SpyridonZ I think something that most of the people here may need to follow along and agree to disagree. As was said many times, different audiences are looking for different things. Healthy debate is one thing, but just keep in mind that its very unlikely anyone will change anyone elses opinion, and no one person could speak for all.
Yup, it's going to be interesting; we know that the forumites are the vocal minority in preferences for sandboxes and open PvP and stuff, but the story aspect is uncharted waters; it's never been truly attempted before and for all the debate there's really no way to be sure how it's going to be received by the majority of MMO players until they actually release it.
The only somewhat comparable element is Tortage in AoC; I've heard it mentioned that Tortage was the principle reason that AoC sold so well in the first month prior to hemorhagging subs once people started to hit level 20 and got into the more traditional part of the game.
If true, that bodes very well for TORs story aspect, especially as it bypasses the main complaint about Tortage; that it was lacking in replay value because most professions had mainly identical experiences with only a couple of variations and that once you hit level 20 the game completely changed.
That is so not the reality of what happened!
Tortage was popular because it was well polished but not because of the story. There were huge outcries (HUGE) about the linear aspects to it and that it had to be repeated for people who starts all over.
People accepted Tortage because they were promised the game would be open after level 20. That is how it was. It wasn't about "Tortage is so wonderful, why can't the whole game be one linear, walled experience" !
Actually, I'm not too in to Star Wars. I did not even play SWG.
But I'm a huge fan of Bioware and what they do.
About the judgement of their gameplay mechanics, past those involved in the storyline, they have not even released the details. They have only mentioned the storyline differences as that is the primary focus of this game, and all Biowares games. So your judgement of comparisons to WoW is speculation.
If your a fan of Biowares past games, you will likely be looking forward to this game. If not, you wont.
If your a fan of traditionial MMO's and storylines, you will likely be looking forward to this game. If not, you wont.
It's that simple.
No it isn't. There is plenty of info out there.
Raids. Check
Classes. Check
Levels. Check
Light pvp. Check
Bioware says they want to take on wow. Check.
Bioware CEO says WoW is the best thing since sliced bread. Check.
Some people in the TOR forums just don't get it. Sure I can't deprive people the right to think WoW is a great mmo or that linear stories from Bioware are great. And people have the right to love levels as much as they want. And classes. And raids. But the OP is not saying stories are bad or not needed. The problem with Bioware is that they are slapping stories on the old tried WoW formula. This is not about crystal balls and no need to wait for beta or launch. This is just plain obvious. Facts: Bioware's CEO loves WoW Bioware said they want WoW's succes Bioware said it is all about heroes and stories (and no moisture farmers) Bioware said that players want to be lead around and not having to find the action. Bioware announces endgame as raids. 8 classes. Levels. What is the novelty here? Stories? Stories are not new. They are just taking solo RPG and add a subscription fee by adding multiplayer content.
For every launch of mmos I see the same fans charge in and defend the company, IP, game under development: 1. Where is your crystal ball. Maybe it will contain X and Y. 2. Wait for Closed Beta. 3. (in closed beta) Wait for Open Beta. 4. (in open beta). Wait for the miracle patch. 5. Games aren't launched bug free or perfect. SWG which launched a decade ago didn't include space, so why should there be space now ten years after at launch? 6. Wait for the expansion. 7. One year after launch. Sure the game launched too early and had XXXXXXXXX problems, and lost XXXXXXXXX amount of players, but look how it is picking up and is an all new, better game. 8. Wait for patch 1.6 9. The free trial will help getting new players..
Truth is that Bioware is developing a game for the lowest common denominator. And since this is a discussion forum people have the right to voice concerns. This is not about disgruntled vets from SWG. Most of us don't want a copy of that game. But launching mmos without the massive part to GET a lot of box sales is sick.
MMO industry reminds me of pump and dump stock schemes. Look at AoC. They pumped their game with LIES and hype. Sold close to a million boxes and then gave up on the game and is now making the next one.
Bioware stick to story and the eq / wow script. Good for them and their sales. Judging from this and other forums, the SW name will sell a lot of boxes. But it is not great for the mmorpg industry nor for hte players!
Spot on!
I think many fanbois on this forum are going to get a nasty shock when they realise that Bioware hasn't sold them an MMO but a single-player game with some group features - and they have to rent it!
Before WoW you had to read the quest text to figure out where to go and what to do once you got there.
WoW omes along: You still get the full quest blurb but now there's a handy section that boils it down to 'Go to the area marked on your map and kill 10 pigs'.
WoW then brought in millions of new players. This has nothing to do with the above change as most of these new players were unaware of the change.
These new players are brought up, in MMO terms, not having to read the actual quest text. Click on the NPC, click accept, check quest tracker. Do stuff.
Now they demand the same from all games. Or at least developers think they demand it.
I love story, but with the advent of quest trackers even I don't bother reading the full text any more. And as a result of this the MMOs I play shallow and empty.
Some people in the TOR forums just don't get it. Sure I can't deprive people the right to think WoW is a great mmo or that linear stories from Bioware are great. And people have the right to love levels as much as they want. And classes. And raids. But the OP is not saying stories are bad or not needed. The problem with Bioware is that they are slapping stories on the old tried WoW formula. This is not about crystal balls and no need to wait for beta or launch. This is just plain obvious. Facts: Bioware's CEO loves WoW Bioware said they want WoW's succes Bioware said it is all about heroes and stories (and no moisture farmers) Bioware said that players want to be lead around and not having to find the action. Bioware announces endgame as raids. 8 classes. Levels. What is the novelty here? Stories? Stories are not new. They are just taking solo RPG and add a subscription fee by adding multiplayer content.
For every launch of mmos I see the same fans charge in and defend the company, IP, game under development: 1. Where is your crystal ball. Maybe it will contain X and Y. 2. Wait for Closed Beta. 3. (in closed beta) Wait for Open Beta. 4. (in open beta). Wait for the miracle patch. 5. Games aren't launched bug free or perfect. SWG which launched a decade ago didn't include space, so why should there be space now ten years after at launch? 6. Wait for the expansion. 7. One year after launch. Sure the game launched too early and had XXXXXXXXX problems, and lost XXXXXXXXX amount of players, but look how it is picking up and is an all new, better game. 8. Wait for patch 1.6 9. The free trial will help getting new players..
Truth is that Bioware is developing a game for the lowest common denominator. And since this is a discussion forum people have the right to voice concerns. This is not about disgruntled vets from SWG. Most of us don't want a copy of that game. But launching mmos without the massive part to GET a lot of box sales is sick.
MMO industry reminds me of pump and dump stock schemes. Look at AoC. They pumped their game with LIES and hype. Sold close to a million boxes and then gave up on the game and is now making the next one.
Bioware stick to story and the eq / wow script. Good for them and their sales. Judging from this and other forums, the SW name will sell a lot of boxes. But it is not great for the mmorpg industry nor for hte players!
Spot on!
I think many fanbois on this forum are going to get a nasty shock when they realise that Bioware hasn't sold them an MMO but a single-player game with some group features - and they have to rent it!
Boy you're just a hater aren't you? You aren't even here to say that you hope it has this feature or not have that feature. No, you're here to say how much its going to suck and the rest of us are going to hate it. Even though what you know about the game is the same the rest of us know and could fill two small paragraphs.
Why is it that people like you are totally incapable of patience, hmm?
Its Bioware, why exactly do you think the game will suck when they are one of the best game creators on the planet? Because you want it to be?
Enough already. If all you have to say is "you're going to hate this", then find another forum.
WoW destroyed stories in MMOs. Before WoW you had to read the quest text to figure out where to go and what to do once you got there. WoW omes along: You still get the full quest blurb but now there's a handy section that boils it down to 'Go to the area marked on your map and kill 10 pigs'. WoW then brought in millions of new players. This has nothing to do with the above change as most of these new players were unaware of the change. These new players are brought up, in MMO terms, not having to read the actual quest text. Click on the NPC, click accept, check quest tracker. Do stuff. Now they demand the same from all games. Or at least developers think they demand it. I love story, but with the advent of quest trackers even I don't bother reading the full text any more. And as a result of this the MMOs I play shallow and empty. Bioware is trying to change this. Bring it on, I say!
This is really sad!
If THIS is what people believe then there will be trouble when they see TOR.
Bioware said clearly they believe the players shouldn't have to go look for the story, but they should be guided through it.
Originally posted by Draccan That is so not the reality of what happened! Tortage was popular because it was well polished but not because of the story. There were huge outcries (HUGE) about the linear aspects to it and that it had to be repeated for people who starts all over. It's Bioware, so I think we can safely assume it'll be well polished, and with the promise of completely different stories for every class, the repetitiveness will be much reduced. People accepted Tortage because they were promised the game would be open after level 20. That is how it was. It wasn't about "Tortage is so wonderful, why can't the whole game be one linear, walled experience" ! I disagree. My (and my guildmates) experience of Tortage was for the most a very positive one. We didn't like to repeat the same thing with every class we rolled (see above) and we weren't too keen on running into loading screens every few steps, but it was the best part of the game as far as we were concerned. If you have any links to official and unbiased sources that gauged the popularity (or unpopularity) of the Tortage experience, I'd love to see 'em.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
WoW destroyed stories in MMOs. How? Before WoW you had to read the quest text to figure out where to go and what to do once you got there. You still do in WoW. WoW omes along: You still get the full quest blurb but now there's a handy section that boils it down to 'Go to the area marked on your map and kill 10 pigs'. My WoW map doesn't show this... I think you may be confused with WAR. WoW then brought in millions of new players. This has nothing to do with the above change as most of these new players were unaware of the change. You are correct, as there was no change, Blizzard just mad MMOs more popular. These new players are brought up, in MMO terms, not having to read the actual quest text. Click on the NPC, click accept, check quest tracker. Do stuff. Incorrect, they got used to wowhead, thottbot and questhelper. It's not Blizzards fault that most people are too lazy to figure it out without using external resources. Now they demand the same from all games. Or at least developers think they demand it. Again, too many lazy players. I love story, but with the advent of quest trackers even I don't bother reading the full text any more. And as a result of this the MMOs I play shallow and empty. Nobody forces you to, don't use quest tracker. Bioware is trying to change this. Bring it on, I say!
Have you aver played WoW? Most of what you said is completely inaccurate.
I know it's not the best game on the planet but it isn't the worst either.
I'm not going to flame the OP, I understand what he is saying.. Agree with it totally? Na.. but I do agree with most of what he is saying and feeling.. Story is "GREAT" the first time around, after that.. Who cares? I don't.. I think WoW, LoTRo had great storylines that went well with the quest and goals of the game.. However, after my primary characters see's the story, I'm looking for the "X" button to quickly close chat and move on to the objective.. I don't need to read the same thing over and over on each toon.. In my opinion the story is an equal "pillar" as Bioware says on your first toon, but on any alt after that.. I dont' give a rat's @ss what the lil chat bubble says.. lets move along..
What will make or break any mmo in today's market is playability.. Are the mechanics sound? Are they balanced? Are they bugged? You know.. Golf is the #1 sport and hobby in the world generating BILLIONS in the economy each year.. More people play this game then anything else.. and guess what? It has NO freaking story.. People play to play, because the mechanics of the game are fun, challenging and fair.. You could put a "history" plaque on each hole for golfers to read about the history and story of the game.. But like I said before.. That only works the 1st time thru, after that, I'm ignoring the plaque..
Originally posted by Draccan That is so not the reality of what happened! Tortage was popular because it was well polished but not because of the story. There were huge outcries (HUGE) about the linear aspects to it and that it had to be repeated for people who starts all over. It's Bioware, so I think we can safely assume it'll be well polished, and with the promise of completely different stories for every class, the repetitiveness will be much reduced. People accepted Tortage because they were promised the game would be open after level 20. That is how it was. It wasn't about "Tortage is so wonderful, why can't the whole game be one linear, walled experience" ! I disagree. My (and my guildmates) experience of Tortage was for the most a very positive one. We didn't like to repeat the same thing with every class we rolled (see above) and we weren't too keen on running into loading screens every few steps, but it was the best part of the game as far as we were concerned. If you have any links to official and unbiased sources that gauged the popularity (or unpopularity) of the Tortage experience, I'd love to see 'em.
Weird post. You pretty much agree with most of what I said.
I too think Tortage was the best part of AoC but also not a part I want for a full game. It was polished, that is why it was liked. But the forums were FILLED with people crying over Tortage was too linear..
So don't give me that - I followed this forum, the beta forums and the official forums - and the concensus wasn't positive... Don't twist facts here! Thanks!!
Some people in the TOR forums just don't get it. Sure I can't deprive people the right to think WoW is a great mmo or that linear stories from Bioware are great. And people have the right to love levels as much as they want. And classes. And raids.
But the OP is not saying stories are bad or not needed. The problem with Bioware is that they are slapping stories on the old tried WoW formula. This is not about crystal balls and no need to wait for beta or launch. This is just plain obvious.
Facts:
Bioware's CEO loves WoW
Bioware said they want WoW's succes
Bioware said it is all about heroes and stories (and no moisture farmers)
Bioware said that players want to be lead around and not having to find the action.
Bioware announces endgame as raids. 8 classes. Levels.
What is the novelty here? Stories? Stories are not new. They are just taking solo RPG and add a subscription fee by adding multiplayer content.
For every launch of mmos I see the same fans charge in and defend the company, IP, game under development:
1. Where is your crystal ball. Maybe it will contain X and Y.
2. Wait for Closed Beta.
3. (in closed beta) Wait for Open Beta.
4. (in open beta). Wait for the miracle patch.
5. Games aren't launched bug free or perfect. SWG which launched a decade ago didn't include space, so why should there be space now ten years after at launch?
6. Wait for the expansion.
7. One year after launch. Sure the game launched too early and had XXXXXXXXX problems, and lost XXXXXXXXX amount of players, but look how it is picking up and is an all new, better game.
8. Wait for patch 1.6
9. The free trial will help getting new players..
Truth is that Bioware is developing a game for the lowest common denominator. And since this is a discussion forum people have the right to voice concerns.
This is not about disgruntled vets from SWG. Most of us don't want a copy of that game. But launching mmos without the massive part to GET a lot of box sales is sick.
MMO industry reminds me of pump and dump stock schemes. Look at AoC. They pumped their game with LIES and hype. Sold close to a million boxes and then gave up on the game and is now making the next one.
Bioware stick to story and the eq / wow script. Good for them and their sales. Judging from this and other forums, the SW name will sell a lot of boxes. But it is not great for the mmorpg industry nor for hte players!
Spot on!
I think many fanbois on this forum are going to get a nasty shock when they realise that Bioware hasn't sold them an MMO but a single-player game with some group features - and they have to rent it!
Boy you're just a hater aren't you? You aren't even here to say that you hope it has this feature or not have that feature. No, you're here to say how much its going to suck and the rest of us are going to hate it. Even though what you know about the game is the same the rest of us know and could fill two small paragraphs.
Why is it that people like you are totally incapable of patience, hmm?
Its Bioware, why exactly do you think the game will suck when they are one of the best game creators on the planet? Because you want it to be?
Enough already. If all you have to say is "you're going to hate this", then find another forum.
You do of course realize that you're responding to someone named Trollflame yes? My advice to you is to simply ignore the idiots of which you will run across in multitudes and simply go on about your day.
lol, aww, poor guy... you killed Trollflames fun =p
WoW destroyed stories in MMOs. How? Before WoW you had to read the quest text to figure out where to go and what to do once you got there. You still do in WoW. WoW omes along: You still get the full quest blurb but now there's a handy section that boils it down to 'Go to the area marked on your map and kill 10 pigs'. My WoW map doesn't show this... I think you may be confused with WAR. WoW then brought in millions of new players. This has nothing to do with the above change as most of these new players were unaware of the change. You are correct, as there was no change, Blizzard just mad MMOs more popular. These new players are brought up, in MMO terms, not having to read the actual quest text. Click on the NPC, click accept, check quest tracker. Do stuff. Incorrect, they got used to wowhead, thottbot and questhelper. It's not Blizzards fault that most people are too lazy to figure it out without using external resources. Now they demand the same from all games. Or at least developers think they demand it. Again, too many lazy players. I love story, but with the advent of quest trackers even I don't bother reading the full text any more. And as a result of this the MMOs I play shallow and empty. Nobody forces you to, don't use quest tracker. Bioware is trying to change this. Bring it on, I say!
Have you aver played WoW? Most of what you said is completely inaccurate.
I know it's not the best game on the planet but it isn't the worst either.
Always amazes me that so many people put WOW down, WOW killed MMO's, frankly i find that astonishing, considering WOW currently has, by all accounts, over 11 million active subscribers, personally, i think the WOW killed MMO's thing is in part correct, but not in the way the fanbois think, what Blizzard did was to actually raise the bar, to such a degree that people no longer were content to put up with shoddy substandard coding/gameplay that infested certain games - but, isnt this a forum about ToR not WOW?
If Bioware are trying to emulate Blizzard - a tall order for any software company imo considering the resources that Blizzard currently has, then all to the good, although personally i would be happy if they didnt release a WOW in space.. then again, i would be happy if it wasnt like KOTOR either, which for me was a most disapointing game, perhaps its because i'd rather be a bounty hunter than a jedi, or a sith.
I only read the forums but never post but after seeing a post like this I have to.
First of all, why do you have to throw a tantrum like a 9 year old not getting your way since the developers arnt making exactly what you want. The game is spose to be a compeling story thay draws you in emotionally yet you want to get rid of that? In end it just makes it another game if you take out what they were focusing on. Instead you come here swearing repedily for attention calling them assholes yet your the one being one. Just grow up, this is the main reason why I dont post here is since everyone beleives if its not there way its not right. You say story dosent matter? KOTOR was game of the year mainly because of its story. KOTOR happend to be my favorite game for the original Xbox also, and I wouldnt even bother if they didnt have a story.
If players want to pay $15 a month to play a single player game, there's nothing anyone can do to stop them. I just hope that if the game is successful that other developers realize that not everyone who plays multiplayer games is a social misfit with nothing better to spend their money on.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
story is just another way to say instances because the story will be instanced.
Hope not, personally i dont like instances in games, im not saying their game breaking, but they are annoying, i didnt like them in WOW, Guildwars or.. .. well any game really.. they really worked well for Dungeons and Dragons Online too....
story is just another way to say instances because the story will be instanced.
Hope not, personally i dont like instances in games, im not saying their game breaking, but they are annoying, i didnt like them in WOW, Guildwars or.. .. well any game really.. they really worked well for Dungeons and Dragons Online too....
Oddly I liked the instances in WOW, it was extreamly fun when you were in a group of inexperienced players so it wasnt like walking cassualy later on in game when everyone ran them atleast 5 times a go memorizing everyplace but getting surprised by every corner.
Hopefully the voice acting will help a bit on the lack of caring of the storyline of an MMO, that and the fact that it might actually have effects on your character if you choose to rashly might help in that direcetion as well.
Reason why people saying "its from Bioware its gonna be polished" Bioware makes good games, they make clean polished games, all MMOs come out a little on the glitched side, thats a side effect of allowing games to be able to be patched thus forcing the game developers to push games out the door as quickly as possible and fix what you can later.
Yea space probably wont be with launch, get over it or just quit whining about it and dont play the game when it comes out.
I think a certain number of players do want storyline and the rest just either don't know good storytelling, or dont consider MMO and storys to mesh well. Which if you still cling to the days of EQ I could see why, hours of text based storyline telling you how epic it would be to kill 30 rats, and then go kill 40 mega rats Im surprise you made it past the first town cus I sure didn't.
I don't think you really understood my post there. This was an argument -supporting- BioWare's take on story. Not bashing it.
You're basicly telling the same as me in my analogy, shame that you didn't get it and decided to flame me
With Rome I meant 'end-game' or 'max lvl'. So while BioWare's story will inadversibly lead everyone towards the 'end-game' where people raid/pvp, there's many roads to take to get at the end-game. The story choices you make will define how you'll get at 'Rome', the max-lvl/end-game, and in a lesser way define the character you'll be at end-game.
So yes, it is linear, but there's many lines to pick. Which is a good thing.
i've got my concerns about the 'massive multiplayer' part as well, but I'm on a 'wait and see' mindset right now. There's really nothing known about it, and I can understand other people's concern for BioWare haven't said much more about their game except for 'story'. But the suspicions people have about SW:TOR being an online, single-player RPG I definitely don't follow.
Heat, pressure and time. The three things that make a diamond, also make a waffle. Also known as Ardanwen.
How is that different than every other MMOs on the market? There's always a progressive element in this genre; it's what defines a game as an MMORPG. If Bioware are going to replace "grind 10000 mobs" or "do 1000 quests to kill 10 x boars" with "complete a long-winded questline" are the end-game oriented players really going to care? They'll rush through it just as fast as they typically rush through the grinding/questing to get to max level and begin their raiding/PvP. Bioware have already said the game would have these things.
Perhaps a few will whine because it's not bottable, or can't be done semi-afk in large groups .. but I doubt many people (or the developers) will be sympathetic to their viewpoint.
And for the rest of us; the ones who enjoy the journey more than the destination .. it's a HUGE improvement over current MMO mechanics. If they also add in player housing and support for roleplaying, it'll be my dream game.
Take WoW, for example. In that game, they offer you many, many different stories and, more to the point, different types of stories, from which you can pick and choose.
Or take the old SWG. In that game, there was no story at all - you made up your own by yourself or with friends. And to help you along, you could change yourself. If you were bored of being a Bounty Hunter you could be a chef and make millions with your own custom-equipped shop or perhaps you might be a creature trainer with three Grauls or else an Imperial pilot killing pirates...
Thos are just two examples of how other games differ from the one profession-one story route that Bioware seem to have chosen for TOR.
If you think WoW has diversity in the offered stories that you can follow, then rest assured that SW:TOR will have a multitude of that. WoW uses the shallow queststories like most MMO's where your dialogue choices dont mean a thing.
If you read the E3 preview you understand that the dialogue in SW:TOR is much more like KOTOR, but then a multiplayer version of it. This means that the same quest even has replayabiitiy, if your alt choses different responses in quest dialogue then your first character.
WoW and all those other MMO's also dont have specific class related questlines. This means that starting an alt, will see exactly the same questoffers as the first character.
I wont go into old SWG, that game had completely different features to offer compared to other games (crafting style, playercities etc). But it completely lacked story. Making up your own story is possible in any MMO. SWG just hands you more tools for that (current SWG more then old SWG btw:p )
I really think you dont know what you are talking about. You expect linearity and use the King of lineair MMO's as example for diversity A game where it doesnt matter what class you pick or what you respond to npcs. Outcome will always be the same.
SpyridonZ, I'm quoting part of a post you made in your debate over what constitutes grind. I don't want to get into the semantics arguement but some of what you said makes me wonder just exactly what you are expecting from TOR. I'm not trying to say it will be a bad game I'm just curious what you think will make it so different. I'll post my questions inside the quote.
Originally posted by SpyridonZ Well, id argue that it is repetitive if you have to fight the wolves and kobolds in the same exact way - which is how it is in most MMO's. Also, the problem is there is only a small number of different goals you have, and no significance to them. Kill quests, collect quests, delivery quests - those 3 things make up the majority of MMO quests. That's why it "feels" like a grind - its the same thing over and over. So how do you think TOR will differ from this? As you follow the story you will be given objectives (quests). These will inevitably boil down to <<go to that place and perform this action>>. The actions you perform will, again inevitably, be either <kill>, <collect>, or <deliver>. Or maybe <talk to this guy> which is pretty standard. Or maybe <disable this sheild generator> which could be classified as a <destroy> quest. The point is that I don't see how there could be a great deal of variation in the types of goals they give you. Whether your shooting bears, goblins, spiders, kobolds - if you just have to press 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, repeat - its going to get repetitive. Ok, so how will TOR differ from this? Instead of killing bears, goblins, spiders, and kobolds you will be killing humans, wookies, droids, and sandpeople. When you get right down to it is that really so different? And what do you expect from combat? You don't think you're going to be using the same combat abilities over and over again? The 1,1,1,2,3, repeat type of thing you mentioned? Killing someone for a quest should have some significance - not just for a reward. So what significance do you think it will have in TOR other than the reward of progressing your character and progressing through the story? Doing quests for a certain NPC should make a difference. So what difference do you think it will make in TOR other than progressing your character and progressing through the story? I'm not trying to bust your chops here I'm just really wondering what you think will be so different about the game. I can't imagine that the actions of a player will make any real difference in the game other than for your own character.
It blows my mind how out of touch developers are with the MMO base. With literally the biggest IP in the world, their focus is NOT what gamers have hated about mmos for years. No no, they will contiune to shovel the bullshit, but will now have STORY! Are you kidding me? The level of absurdity is making my brain swell. People hate classes, they hate levels, they hate watered-down gameplay and grind. Does BioWare plan on address these -universal- complaints? Fuck no, to them the problem with MMOs is story? My mind is utterly blown. From forum to forum across the internet, followers are asking the same basic questions. Whats pvp like? Whats pve like? How are the classes? What is the item system like? Yet over and over, every single dev blog and release is about story. I just can't wrap my head around the unsurpassable amount of ignorance by the dev teams. You would think that seeing the failings of supposed "blockbuster" MMOs like Aoc and WAR would send a message, but no. Alas we continue to be insulted by developers who ignore the -KEY- issues people have with the genre, and instead focus on something utterly worthless. Newsflash jackasses, your customers arn't upset with lack of story, they are upset with the cookie cutter MMO template that money grubing bandwagoners like you continue to reiterate and expect to sell.
The only one out-of-touch here is you!
SW: ToR is a MMORPG = Massive Multiplayer Online ROLEPLAYING Game.
What roleplaying games have you played that didnt require leveling of some sort? Even in single player rpg games you still have to level something, in KOTOR it was your abilities and force powers, in MASS EFFECT its stats and special abilites, in Fable 2 its gaining XP for Spells, ranged and melee upgrades. All rpg games have some method of grinding.
Even shooters have grinding xp in now, I have COD: WAW and multiplayers about grinding xp to unlock weps.
The main defining part of the RP genre is the Story! Like films an RP game can surpase its bugs/bad acting if the story is compelling enough to incapturvate the audience. Example of Rp game that did this is KOTOR 2! The game was released way too soon by lucasarts, there were many flaws, some even game breaking. I can remeber the game constanly crashing on certain planets making it imposible to play, yet i was compelled to play to continue the story and find out the ending.
Now if the story in KOTOR was dribble like in currently mmos (its rare that people will take the time to read the quest logs, people just want to go to the waypoint and kill and collect reward) then the game would have flopped on an epic scale.
As for dev's not mentioning about pvp, perhaps they havent developed that side yet, this game isnt due to be released till dec 2010, pvp tends to be the smaller proportion to develope really compared to the games engine, quests storyline. If your looking for a game thats built around pvp try guildwars, see how it is before you get bored of it.
Im sure as time progresses the dev team will release more information about pvp when they have developed the concept in concrete.
How can you say this game is cookie cutting when you dont know anything about it yet? lol. Cookie cutting is one of mmos biggest problems because of its player base not the game itself. Players in WoW for example are soo consumed about how much dps there doing, thats its taken over the game play aspect. People who play WoW on the whole dont follow the storyline, i dont know anyone who has, the only people ive met in game talk about getting to level 80 fast to do nax runs, playing paladins, warlocks or death knights cuz there dps is the most imbalanced atm. But WoW is not story driven, its driven by GEAR.
Thats why i left WoW, im not interested in doing nax once continously, repeating quests to make money, grinding materials to make items (proffesions are soo dull in wow, there only for profit) its just tedius and for what? so you can brag to your guidies, wow indeed, basically thats all the game is BRAGGING lol. "My dps is X amount bigger than yours" "check out my uldar epics" "my DK can PWN ALL" thats all the game comes down to.
But bioware have NEVER made a game like that, have you even played KOTOR 1 and 2, MASS EFFECT, JADE EMPIRE, Never Winter nights? If you havent, you really should try them first, if you dont like em, you definately will have problems enjoying the future mmo lol.
WoW destroyed stories in MMOs. Before WoW you had to read the quest text to figure out where to go and what to do once you got there. WoW omes along: You still get the full quest blurb but now there's a handy section that boils it down to 'Go to the area marked on your map and kill 10 pigs'. WoW then brought in millions of new players. This has nothing to do with the above change as most of these new players were unaware of the change. These new players are brought up, in MMO terms, not having to read the actual quest text. Click on the NPC, click accept, check quest tracker. Do stuff. Now they demand the same from all games. Or at least developers think they demand it. I love story, but with the advent of quest trackers even I don't bother reading the full text any more. And as a result of this the MMOs I play shallow and empty. Bioware is trying to change this. Bring it on, I say!
This is really sad!
If THIS is what people believe then there will be trouble when they see TOR.
Bioware said clearly they believe the players shouldn't have to go look for the story, but they should be guided through it.
Just look it up. The information is out there.
Paraphrase much? Learn to read. The article did say that people don't want to have to look for content, but it in no way stated that we would be guided and hand held through it. It may turn out that way or it may not, but stop putting words into the developers mouths when you have absolutely no fact to back up your assertions.
Stop infering crap to support your baseless arguments. Why the hell are you here anyway? The game is obviously not for you and yet you keep spouting your vileness in every thread about this game. Go away troll and take your buddies with you.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Comments
Yup, it's going to be interesting; we know that the forumites are the vocal minority in preferences for sandboxes and open PvP and stuff, but the story aspect is uncharted waters; it's never been truly attempted before and for all the debate there's really no way to be sure how it's going to be received by the majority of MMO players until they actually release it.
The only somewhat comparable element is Tortage in AoC; I've heard it mentioned that Tortage was the principle reason that AoC sold so well in the first month prior to hemorhagging subs once people started to hit level 20 and got into the more traditional part of the game.
If true, that bodes very well for TORs story aspect, especially as it bypasses the main complaint about Tortage; that it was lacking in replay value because most professions had mainly identical experiences with only a couple of variations and that once you hit level 20 the game completely changed.
That is so not the reality of what happened!
Tortage was popular because it was well polished but not because of the story. There were huge outcries (HUGE) about the linear aspects to it and that it had to be repeated for people who starts all over.
People accepted Tortage because they were promised the game would be open after level 20. That is how it was. It wasn't about "Tortage is so wonderful, why can't the whole game be one linear, walled experience" !
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CASUAL CONFESSIONS - Draccan's blog
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Actually, I'm not too in to Star Wars. I did not even play SWG.
But I'm a huge fan of Bioware and what they do.
About the judgement of their gameplay mechanics, past those involved in the storyline, they have not even released the details. They have only mentioned the storyline differences as that is the primary focus of this game, and all Biowares games. So your judgement of comparisons to WoW is speculation.
If your a fan of Biowares past games, you will likely be looking forward to this game. If not, you wont.
If your a fan of traditionial MMO's and storylines, you will likely be looking forward to this game. If not, you wont.
It's that simple.
No it isn't. There is plenty of info out there.
Raids. Check
Classes. Check
Levels. Check
Light pvp. Check
Bioware says they want to take on wow. Check.
Bioware CEO says WoW is the best thing since sliced bread. Check.
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CASUAL CONFESSIONS - Draccan's blog
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Ditto, didn't read past post #2! Story rules and without it, its yet another boring MMO!
Ditto, didn't read past post #2! Story rules and without it, its yet another boring MMO!
There are plenty of excellent MMOs that have little or no story. It's single player games that require story.
Spot on!
I think many fanbois on this forum are going to get a nasty shock when they realise that Bioware hasn't sold them an MMO but a single-player game with some group features - and they have to rent it!
WoW destroyed stories in MMOs.
Before WoW you had to read the quest text to figure out where to go and what to do once you got there.
WoW omes along: You still get the full quest blurb but now there's a handy section that boils it down to 'Go to the area marked on your map and kill 10 pigs'.
WoW then brought in millions of new players. This has nothing to do with the above change as most of these new players were unaware of the change.
These new players are brought up, in MMO terms, not having to read the actual quest text. Click on the NPC, click accept, check quest tracker. Do stuff.
Now they demand the same from all games. Or at least developers think they demand it.
I love story, but with the advent of quest trackers even I don't bother reading the full text any more. And as a result of this the MMOs I play shallow and empty.
Bioware is trying to change this.
Bring it on, I say!
Spot on!
I think many fanbois on this forum are going to get a nasty shock when they realise that Bioware hasn't sold them an MMO but a single-player game with some group features - and they have to rent it!
Boy you're just a hater aren't you? You aren't even here to say that you hope it has this feature or not have that feature. No, you're here to say how much its going to suck and the rest of us are going to hate it. Even though what you know about the game is the same the rest of us know and could fill two small paragraphs.
Why is it that people like you are totally incapable of patience, hmm?
Its Bioware, why exactly do you think the game will suck when they are one of the best game creators on the planet? Because you want it to be?
Enough already. If all you have to say is "you're going to hate this", then find another forum.
This is really sad!
If THIS is what people believe then there will be trouble when they see TOR.
Bioware said clearly they believe the players shouldn't have to go look for the story, but they should be guided through it.
Just look it up. The information is out there.
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CASUAL CONFESSIONS - Draccan's blog
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Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Have you aver played WoW? Most of what you said is completely inaccurate.
I know it's not the best game on the planet but it isn't the worst either.
I'm not going to flame the OP, I understand what he is saying.. Agree with it totally? Na.. but I do agree with most of what he is saying and feeling.. Story is "GREAT" the first time around, after that.. Who cares? I don't.. I think WoW, LoTRo had great storylines that went well with the quest and goals of the game.. However, after my primary characters see's the story, I'm looking for the "X" button to quickly close chat and move on to the objective.. I don't need to read the same thing over and over on each toon.. In my opinion the story is an equal "pillar" as Bioware says on your first toon, but on any alt after that.. I dont' give a rat's @ss what the lil chat bubble says.. lets move along..
What will make or break any mmo in today's market is playability.. Are the mechanics sound? Are they balanced? Are they bugged? You know.. Golf is the #1 sport and hobby in the world generating BILLIONS in the economy each year.. More people play this game then anything else.. and guess what? It has NO freaking story.. People play to play, because the mechanics of the game are fun, challenging and fair.. You could put a "history" plaque on each hole for golfers to read about the history and story of the game.. But like I said before.. That only works the 1st time thru, after that, I'm ignoring the plaque..
Weird post. You pretty much agree with most of what I said.
I too think Tortage was the best part of AoC but also not a part I want for a full game. It was polished, that is why it was liked. But the forums were FILLED with people crying over Tortage was too linear..
So don't give me that - I followed this forum, the beta forums and the official forums - and the concensus wasn't positive... Don't twist facts here! Thanks!!
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CASUAL CONFESSIONS - Draccan's blog
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Spot on!
I think many fanbois on this forum are going to get a nasty shock when they realise that Bioware hasn't sold them an MMO but a single-player game with some group features - and they have to rent it!
Boy you're just a hater aren't you? You aren't even here to say that you hope it has this feature or not have that feature. No, you're here to say how much its going to suck and the rest of us are going to hate it. Even though what you know about the game is the same the rest of us know and could fill two small paragraphs.
Why is it that people like you are totally incapable of patience, hmm?
Its Bioware, why exactly do you think the game will suck when they are one of the best game creators on the planet? Because you want it to be?
Enough already. If all you have to say is "you're going to hate this", then find another forum.
You do of course realize that you're responding to someone named Trollflame yes? My advice to you is to simply ignore the idiots of which you will run across in multitudes and simply go on about your day.
lol, aww, poor guy... you killed Trollflames fun =p
Funny though. I didnt notice his name.
Have you aver played WoW? Most of what you said is completely inaccurate.
I know it's not the best game on the planet but it isn't the worst either.
Always amazes me that so many people put WOW down, WOW killed MMO's, frankly i find that astonishing, considering WOW currently has, by all accounts, over 11 million active subscribers, personally, i think the WOW killed MMO's thing is in part correct, but not in the way the fanbois think, what Blizzard did was to actually raise the bar, to such a degree that people no longer were content to put up with shoddy substandard coding/gameplay that infested certain games - but, isnt this a forum about ToR not WOW?
If Bioware are trying to emulate Blizzard - a tall order for any software company imo considering the resources that Blizzard currently has, then all to the good, although personally i would be happy if they didnt release a WOW in space.. then again, i would be happy if it wasnt like KOTOR either, which for me was a most disapointing game, perhaps its because i'd rather be a bounty hunter than a jedi, or a sith.
story is just another way to say instances because the story will be instanced.
I only read the forums but never post but after seeing a post like this I have to.
First of all, why do you have to throw a tantrum like a 9 year old not getting your way since the developers arnt making exactly what you want. The game is spose to be a compeling story thay draws you in emotionally yet you want to get rid of that? In end it just makes it another game if you take out what they were focusing on. Instead you come here swearing repedily for attention calling them assholes yet your the one being one. Just grow up, this is the main reason why I dont post here is since everyone beleives if its not there way its not right. You say story dosent matter? KOTOR was game of the year mainly because of its story. KOTOR happend to be my favorite game for the original Xbox also, and I wouldnt even bother if they didnt have a story.
If players want to pay $15 a month to play a single player game, there's nothing anyone can do to stop them. I just hope that if the game is successful that other developers realize that not everyone who plays multiplayer games is a social misfit with nothing better to spend their money on.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Hope not, personally i dont like instances in games, im not saying their game breaking, but they are annoying, i didnt like them in WOW, Guildwars or.. .. well any game really.. they really worked well for Dungeons and Dragons Online too....
Hope not, personally i dont like instances in games, im not saying their game breaking, but they are annoying, i didnt like them in WOW, Guildwars or.. .. well any game really.. they really worked well for Dungeons and Dragons Online too....
Oddly I liked the instances in WOW, it was extreamly fun when you were in a group of inexperienced players so it wasnt like walking cassualy later on in game when everyone ran them atleast 5 times a go memorizing everyplace but getting surprised by every corner.
Hopefully the voice acting will help a bit on the lack of caring of the storyline of an MMO, that and the fact that it might actually have effects on your character if you choose to rashly might help in that direcetion as well.
Reason why people saying "its from Bioware its gonna be polished" Bioware makes good games, they make clean polished games, all MMOs come out a little on the glitched side, thats a side effect of allowing games to be able to be patched thus forcing the game developers to push games out the door as quickly as possible and fix what you can later.
Yea space probably wont be with launch, get over it or just quit whining about it and dont play the game when it comes out.
I think a certain number of players do want storyline and the rest just either don't know good storytelling, or dont consider MMO and storys to mesh well. Which if you still cling to the days of EQ I could see why, hours of text based storyline telling you how epic it would be to kill 30 rats, and then go kill 40 mega rats Im surprise you made it past the first town cus I sure didn't.
I don't think you really understood my post there. This was an argument -supporting- BioWare's take on story. Not bashing it.
You're basicly telling the same as me in my analogy, shame that you didn't get it and decided to flame me
With Rome I meant 'end-game' or 'max lvl'. So while BioWare's story will inadversibly lead everyone towards the 'end-game' where people raid/pvp, there's many roads to take to get at the end-game. The story choices you make will define how you'll get at 'Rome', the max-lvl/end-game, and in a lesser way define the character you'll be at end-game.
So yes, it is linear, but there's many lines to pick. Which is a good thing.
i've got my concerns about the 'massive multiplayer' part as well, but I'm on a 'wait and see' mindset right now. There's really nothing known about it, and I can understand other people's concern for BioWare haven't said much more about their game except for 'story'. But the suspicions people have about SW:TOR being an online, single-player RPG I definitely don't follow.
Heat, pressure and time. The three things that make a diamond, also make a waffle.
Also known as Ardanwen.
Take WoW, for example. In that game, they offer you many, many different stories and, more to the point, different types of stories, from which you can pick and choose.
Or take the old SWG. In that game, there was no story at all - you made up your own by yourself or with friends. And to help you along, you could change yourself. If you were bored of being a Bounty Hunter you could be a chef and make millions with your own custom-equipped shop or perhaps you might be a creature trainer with three Grauls or else an Imperial pilot killing pirates...
Thos are just two examples of how other games differ from the one profession-one story route that Bioware seem to have chosen for TOR.
If you think WoW has diversity in the offered stories that you can follow, then rest assured that SW:TOR will have a multitude of that. WoW uses the shallow queststories like most MMO's where your dialogue choices dont mean a thing.
If you read the E3 preview you understand that the dialogue in SW:TOR is much more like KOTOR, but then a multiplayer version of it. This means that the same quest even has replayabiitiy, if your alt choses different responses in quest dialogue then your first character.
WoW and all those other MMO's also dont have specific class related questlines. This means that starting an alt, will see exactly the same questoffers as the first character.
I wont go into old SWG, that game had completely different features to offer compared to other games (crafting style, playercities etc). But it completely lacked story. Making up your own story is possible in any MMO. SWG just hands you more tools for that (current SWG more then old SWG btw:p )
I really think you dont know what you are talking about. You expect linearity and use the King of lineair MMO's as example for diversity
A game where it doesnt matter what class you pick or what you respond to npcs. Outcome will always be the same.
SpyridonZ, I'm quoting part of a post you made in your debate over what constitutes grind. I don't want to get into the semantics arguement but some of what you said makes me wonder just exactly what you are expecting from TOR. I'm not trying to say it will be a bad game I'm just curious what you think will make it so different. I'll post my questions inside the quote.
The only one out-of-touch here is you!
SW: ToR is a MMORPG = Massive Multiplayer Online ROLEPLAYING Game.
What roleplaying games have you played that didnt require leveling of some sort? Even in single player rpg games you still have to level something, in KOTOR it was your abilities and force powers, in MASS EFFECT its stats and special abilites, in Fable 2 its gaining XP for Spells, ranged and melee upgrades. All rpg games have some method of grinding.
Even shooters have grinding xp in now, I have COD: WAW and multiplayers about grinding xp to unlock weps.
The main defining part of the RP genre is the Story! Like films an RP game can surpase its bugs/bad acting if the story is compelling enough to incapturvate the audience. Example of Rp game that did this is KOTOR 2! The game was released way too soon by lucasarts, there were many flaws, some even game breaking. I can remeber the game constanly crashing on certain planets making it imposible to play, yet i was compelled to play to continue the story and find out the ending.
Now if the story in KOTOR was dribble like in currently mmos (its rare that people will take the time to read the quest logs, people just want to go to the waypoint and kill and collect reward) then the game would have flopped on an epic scale.
As for dev's not mentioning about pvp, perhaps they havent developed that side yet, this game isnt due to be released till dec 2010, pvp tends to be the smaller proportion to develope really compared to the games engine, quests storyline. If your looking for a game thats built around pvp try guildwars, see how it is before you get bored of it.
Im sure as time progresses the dev team will release more information about pvp when they have developed the concept in concrete.
How can you say this game is cookie cutting when you dont know anything about it yet? lol. Cookie cutting is one of mmos biggest problems because of its player base not the game itself. Players in WoW for example are soo consumed about how much dps there doing, thats its taken over the game play aspect. People who play WoW on the whole dont follow the storyline, i dont know anyone who has, the only people ive met in game talk about getting to level 80 fast to do nax runs, playing paladins, warlocks or death knights cuz there dps is the most imbalanced atm. But WoW is not story driven, its driven by GEAR.
Thats why i left WoW, im not interested in doing nax once continously, repeating quests to make money, grinding materials to make items (proffesions are soo dull in wow, there only for profit) its just tedius and for what? so you can brag to your guidies, wow indeed, basically thats all the game is BRAGGING lol. "My dps is X amount bigger than yours" "check out my uldar epics" "my DK can PWN ALL" thats all the game comes down to.
But bioware have NEVER made a game like that, have you even played KOTOR 1 and 2, MASS EFFECT, JADE EMPIRE, Never Winter nights? If you havent, you really should try them first, if you dont like em, you definately will have problems enjoying the future mmo lol.
This is really sad!
If THIS is what people believe then there will be trouble when they see TOR.
Bioware said clearly they believe the players shouldn't have to go look for the story, but they should be guided through it.
Just look it up. The information is out there.
Paraphrase much? Learn to read. The article did say that people don't want to have to look for content, but it in no way stated that we would be guided and hand held through it. It may turn out that way or it may not, but stop putting words into the developers mouths when you have absolutely no fact to back up your assertions.
Stop infering crap to support your baseless arguments. Why the hell are you here anyway? The game is obviously not for you and yet you keep spouting your vileness in every thread about this game. Go away troll and take your buddies with you.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal