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Why are devs opposed to complex crafting?
Greyhawk4x4
Member UncommonPosts: 480
Why is it that there has not been a game since pre-CU SWG that gives the player the ability to craft unique and custom items?
For those of you that don't know what I mean, here is an example;
In SWG, all the resources had variable stats such as Conductivity, Potential Energy and overall quality and each category could range from 1-1000. Resource quality and locations would change regularly so you had to explore and sample to find the best resources, sometimes it meant traveling to multiple planets and searching barren areas.
So, for those who wanted to be known as the absolute best crafters, they had to really work for it, but for those that did they could demand top dollar for their goods.
That handles the quality aspect, so what about the CUSTOM aspect?
In SWG, say as an Armorsmith, your armor was layered. Each layer was crafted and then the layers were assembled along with the other components to make the final piece of armor. Here is the cool part, there were several types of layers, heat resist, stun resist, etc. So, you might have a customer special order some armor with kinetic and stun resist. Now, say you took that 998 overall quality/ 991 decay resist resource that you saved for special orders and made primo layers you could make some truly spectacular custom armor.
Oh, I almost forgot, the customer wanted black chest and leg pieces but purple biceps, forearms, gloves, and helm to finish it off.
See, crafters that would do all that made a name for themselves, they didn't just make 10 of the same chest piece that all the other armorsmiths' on the server could make. You all know what I mean, in every game since SWG I have mastered a crafting profession and it always becomes a game of undercutting the two other guys on the auction hall with the same damn swords that I made.
So, again my question is, "why are devs afraid to put this kind of complex crafting into new MMOs?"
Is it too hard to code?
Is it a control thing?, meaning that they wouldn't be taking enough currency out of the economy?
What?
Comments
It just doesnt fit with the "Whack-a-mole" everyone's a combat-wombat idea.
Imagine making a game where everyone isn't forced to be a combat-wombat, and evrything aint a clone of a clone of a clone?
Man, that game would suck! Cuz we all want to be swordswinging clones , that only has one option of gameplay, combat.... Right?
I'm sure many here are sick to death of hearing about rmt, but imo rmt is why complex crafter and/or player economies are gone. You can't have any such thing as bind on pickup when crafting is the focus of the game gear, and thus everything is tradable and saleable for real money. Of course, your indie devs tend to care less about rmt, but a good crafting game with enough other stuff to go with it needs to be developed by a big time developer for good market penetration. Thus, we're stuck with what the big time developers feel is right, and in general the big time devs are agains rmt.
That being said, I'm sure rmt is but a smaller portion of why good crafting is no longer used. Certainly, there's balance issues, database issues, and complexity that can be a turnoff to the larger market. I'm sure some other folks will come up with other reasons why crafting is ignored nowadays. I'll leave it up to them to continue....
Thanks for the replies,
I wonder if anyone has heard any rumors about games in developement to will have custom item crafting?
I haven't heard of any but hopefully someone has.
A good, complex crafting system requires a lot of work, and maintenance as the game changes and progresses. It also almost inevitably stands in competition with dropped loot/items, which is the primary reward mechanism that most players accept. Furthermore, good, complex crafting requires an ingame economy of at least moderate quality which again requires maintenance, and will likely have to be a "not everyone is grand master" design, which doesnt fit with the modern "everyone is a cool hero! You are so special!" design approach the western audience is now addicted to.
So, why spend a lot of money in development, spend a lot of time, spend a lot of ongoing maintenance, for a feature that only a small elite minority wants?
Good crafting just doesnt pay off in the minds of developers, and while adding to a game, comes at too great a cost, and with too great a drawback to the primary, more important part, which is the Reward/Loot/Combat sphere.
And yeah, its pathetic.
While not quite as good as SWG (nothing ever will probably be). Vanguard has a very unique crafting system that is kind of custom.
I think that if they really wanted a complex crafting system, that they should go all or nothing on it. That they would promote their crafting system as one of the best ever and would be fully devoted to it. Many of the games that I have tried, crafting has been a pain, and if executed incorrectly (like the best items would have to be crafted but there was a horrible and really difficult crafting system) then it would leave me really ticked off... I've heard in my MMO's and their heydays discussion that in other games people would be really into the crafting scene and people would dedicate whole houses to the art, and turn them into shops.
I don't think I"ve experienced a really great crafting system in my WoW and beyond experience, and I sure would like to see a good one that I was able to really get into and have fun with.
"Listen, you fuckers, you screwheads. Here is a man who would not take it anymore. A man who stood up against the scum, the cunts, the dogs, the filth, the shit. Here is a man who stood up." - Robert DeNiro
They are not opposed to it. Developers have not gotten much return on investment from complex craftin so they have phased it out of MMOs.
There are tons of features demanded by people in MMOs. Traditionally substantial crafting was a hallmark of MUDs and then becaus of that (and UO) the MMORPGs followed. Even in the MUDs it was unpopular. And just so you all realize, everything in SWG already existed in MUDs as far as crafting was concerned.
However I would like to say that I think the current "costing" is in fact wrong. Yes crafting is not popular that should be obvious. But the reason they are thinking about it wrong is that the "idea" of crafting is popular. In other words the idea of having a player created economy in which crafting plays an important part is something people like even if they do not really want to make the stuff.
The trick is to make a crafting system where those who simply want to buy do not feel like they must also make a crafting alt. Almost all games with substanital crafting make people feel like they need a crafting alt. Except for maybe Eve Online.
I'd just like to see some genuine player shops. Where individual players are the only people who would know how to make a certain item and they would have to compete for business with people who make similar items. I don't know how but like, if a character was able to actually create a unique item themself, that only they would know how to make. Just an idea...
"Listen, you fuckers, you screwheads. Here is a man who would not take it anymore. A man who stood up against the scum, the cunts, the dogs, the filth, the shit. Here is a man who stood up." - Robert DeNiro
While I don't think the crafting is "custom", Fallen Earth will have 95% of items be craftable. So crafted goods will be, theoretically, better than drops, and contribute to the in-game economy.
My guess for why devs don't follow pre-cu swg, is it is too hard to balance classes that way. Everyone always gripes about class imbalance as it is. Imagine if everyone had custom made items that made them uber? Let the crying commence.
Beta'd Fallen Earth. Couldn't hold my attention.
"Listen, you fuckers, you screwheads. Here is a man who would not take it anymore. A man who stood up against the scum, the cunts, the dogs, the filth, the shit. Here is a man who stood up." - Robert DeNiro
Dev's are never going to get a "return" if the crafting is a tacky addon, just offering another grind of flashy effects and nothing really needed out of it.
For the devs that made crafting into a choice of playstyles.... they had a good return, because they didn't just atract the combat players that had a nack for alts, but also the players that like crafting and the economics game.. not combat.
Devs ARE complex crafters. Probably why they hate to code crafting...
That being said, no other game has touched the crafting or commerce in SWG.
EVE has a pretty good crafting and marketing system.
Very good point... gave me a realization. It's really a shame when the masses are looking for an FPS in third person view when playing MMO's... I want an MMO to be a world... where there are things to do other than just combat. In my opinion, the only way to truly enjoy an MMO for what it is to RP your character a bit and look for more than just mindless blood... and I think a great crafting playstyle would be quite an alternative
"Listen, you fuckers, you screwheads. Here is a man who would not take it anymore. A man who stood up against the scum, the cunts, the dogs, the filth, the shit. Here is a man who stood up." - Robert DeNiro
EQ2 has a fun crafting system and the Mastercrafted items are quite good.
Many of the MUDs I would see, especially the ones with player shops, would do this to varying extents. Often having a Merchant or Smith "class". MUDs were too diverse to solely use the word class, and some of the these trasing/crafting profession had some combat utility depending on the game.
The main thing with this is that, in general, these classes were often very low utilization. Also in many MUDs and MMO many people felt pressured to make alts of these classes to get the advantages more easily yet found this to be a chore. At the same I found that most people liked the mechanic itself. There were a small number of people who did like it and played a maerchant or smith or whatever as a main
This is why Eve actually works out fairly well. As the markets are robust enough that you do not NEED to craft and the advanement system is broad enough and robust enough that you can go and be a versatile crafter or good in some combat and some crafting.
One of the problems I think crafting in general has always had is that part of the tradeoff for crap combat or whatever is great equipment. In a game like LOTRO or WoW you often choosea crafting profession based on whether it makes good stuff for your class or even worse in WoW some crafting stuff gave nice Bind of Creation item that certain classes really wanted like Druids and Enchanting in Vanilla WoW.
I am not sure exactly the "best" solution is but I would say there really needs to be a genuine economy and one of the reasons this is so rare is that the Devs tend to make fake BS economies with infinite resources and no attrition. Eve actually has full on economists on staff and takes it pretty seriously.
I also believe that this is one of the reason RMT is becoming so hard for these fake games to deal with. Eseentially their fake economy gets supplanted by a real one. This is another reason I thin kthey are very badly over looking the benefits of crafting in an MMO.
Trade is one of the most powerful forces in the human continuum. It is ever bit as powerful as war in fact, more powerful since war depends on trade. MMOs tend to completely neglect this and they are reaping all the problem ignoring something so important creates.
But while a full on economy is important, players should not feel required to craft or trade. You need a decent avenue for the majority of people who are most likely going to be combat oriented to obtain most stuff. Also having good corporation style social structures with socially oriented benefits for recruiting crafters/traders is essential since this is essentially "content" for crafters and traders.
Its hard to come up with a complex system that is fun. I just about mastered Spellcrafting in DAoC when they dumbed it down
Think about it, you create some lovely complex crafting system; 10 minutes later the how-to is on Wiki. Alternatively you base it on resource gathering, and everyone posts hate about it due to low drop rates and that they can't farm it.
The only crafting I have found that actually worked and was fun, was fishing in LotR. All you needed was water (bait I think) and then it was just a case of push a button when the float moves to level up.
I don't buy that complex crafting is too costly to implement (for a small amount of player base), I think it is more of a case that is difficult to come up with something different that is fun to do (or at least not mind numbingly tedious)
I've started to look at Earthrise, that is in closed Beta atm and announced to be released sometime in winter.
They seem to have a very deep crafting system planned, without any loot-drops from NPCs and all items produced by players instead, with alot of possible modifications. I also read in the DEV-interviews, that items will be of different quality based on the base materials used and decay until the point, where the item becomes unrepairable.
Sounds pretty good to me so far.
Sounds like a great crafting system. Don't know why Devs don't include something for the crafters. I don't craft, but I'd be a customer.
Developers don't make games to be good anymore, they just want to milk people out of their money.
Well not much to add to this beside people also don't want to give up their shinies. Heaven forbid someone has to replace something because it wears out or breaks.
You can't discount the feeling of picking up that cool weapon you didn't expect. Its just not exciting giving money to someone and them handing over the weapon or buying it from an AH. But after killing that dragon or random critter and a sword of uberness drops, THAT's exciting... in MMO terms at least=)
There should be both options. I like being able to buy something, but I also like being able to find it. I think thats a pretty common opinion.
^ This ^
There's no point in selling items in item shops when players can make it themselves.
There's no point in buying items with real cash when you can buy the items with in-game gold from other players.
And since the publishers want to take the role of crafters selling their pixilated wares for a credit card number, the publishers aren't going to let any customer play that role in any game they publish.
RMT killed player crafting. It was killed via an extensive PR campaign by powergaming guilds and publishers pushing RMT. The arguments against crafting were like this:
1) Greedy crafters were exploiting adventurers. This was something put forth by the powergaming guilds. What little realize is that it was usually the powergamers who came out better in the crafting game. Still, crafting put the common adventurer on an almost equal footing with the powerclan member. That's why these folks lobbied for a game that excluded the common adventurer: the loot'n'raid game. The publishers jumped on this too, not only because they themselves were powergamers, but it helped them argue for RMT.
2) Nobody wants to craft. Perhaps the proportion of those who are obsessed with crafting is lower than those who like adventuring more than crafting. Nevertheless, practically everyone who has a crafting ability uses it at some point. Furthermore, while not everybody crafts, everybody seems to enjoy the benefits of crafting in a game: cheap, available goods. See EVE as an example. Everyone, that is, except those in #1.
3) Crafting leads to imbalance. And looting doesn't? Sheesh...that is, of course, unless you can get good lootables via RMT. The thing crafting does is makes any imbalance something that is available to all...which then sort of mitigates the imbalance. RMT, on the other hand, thrives on creating imbalances between players of varying willingness to splurge.
4) Crafting is too complicated to implement correctly. We had crafting in the dark ages of MMO development that worked rather well. We've had people churn out good crafting systems on a shoestring budget. We've come too far these days to use this lame old excuse. The only limitation is the artwork resources...which of course the MMO publishers want to sell you via RMT.
So truly, the only excuse for not creating a crafting system and in-game economy boils down to one thing: RMT. Those who RMT on the black market (powergamers), and legitimately (the publishers), have no interest in a good crafting system. They have every interest in making players go to them to get the things that make the game worthwhile...for a price.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Well not much to add to this beside people also don't want to give up their shinies. Heaven forbid someone has to replace something because it wears out or breaks.
That would be a huge drag if the item is a rare drop from a raid dungeon that you only get to play every week.
Or you can make the items common place and it losts all its lusters. People don't like to lose their big items. Developers need to pay attention to that.
... Play Vanguard. If you aren't content with the complexity of crafting in it I don't know what else you want.
Well not much to add to this beside people also don't want to give up their shinies. Heaven forbid someone has to replace something because it wears out or breaks.
That would be a huge drag if the item is a rare drop from a raid dungeon that you only get to play every week.
Or you can make the items common place and it losts all its lusters. People don't like to lose their big items. Developers need to pay attention to that.
Then it seems to me that the solution is to have players make the big items...which of course implies that we ensure that the items remain "big" and "rare."
There are ways games can do this. You can up the resources needed to some ungodly amount, make the manufacturing process take a herculanian amount of time, or put more steps in the process (have to go to a special forge, perhaps several special forges across several continents); or a combination of all of these.
Players already do a similar amount of grinding or laboring to loot their gear...why not translate this labor and grinding into something where people can make the gear?
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE