It's amazing that no MMO has yet had an in-game economy that was strictly enforced. In the virtual world the consequences for a bad economy are severe, and nothing is really enforced. Player and especially crafter greed leads to price inflation which leads to gold selling which leads to further inflation on the part of the developers and bigger and more frequest money sinks which leads back to greedy crafters and price inflation and currency devaluation... Set all goods that can be traded between players or sold to/from vendors at an absolute value based on whatever item it is (quality, rarity, difficulty to obtain, etc. etc.) Market conditions of supply and demand can allow for some price deviation up or down but only to a certain extend without the extremes. No price inflation, no currency devaluation and thus economic bloat, no need for gold sellers/buyers and no need for ridiculous money sinks. You have to "fix" in game economies, both definitions of fix, before you can have a really robust and complex crafting and economic system in game.
There is a simple reason for this: if the system limits players too much they will find ways of cicumventing it or abandom it (and probably the game as well).
The 'value' of an item is highly subjective. If player's feel that the game is ripping them off on the trade they will not trade.
I was a Master Weaponsmith pre-cu. I think some of the things mentioned by others played a role (economy, balance, crafting popularity, etc.), but I suspect a lot of it came down to maintenance possibly being too costly.
Many folks were (and still are, most likely) in the habit of making wall collections of all their old weapons - even after they've become useless. The existence of these objects still have to be tracked. Even with virtual servers, what they created was a system that would grow with no real probability of it ever shrinking - and no way of controlling it. Depending on how they were set up to handle it, it could have simply become too financially impractical to maintain the way it was.
I could be wrong about all this of course, since it's still possible to make, display and sell things - albeit with a much smaller playerbase.
One thing we can probably be sure of though...in the end, it all boils down to the bottom-line $$$.
Complex isn't neccessarily good or difficult or rewarding. Complex can simply be complex, and often too complex. Humanity as a whole has survived and prospered because we have found easier, less complex ways to do things. Anyways... The majority of MMO players like things like PvP combat and killing mobs/npcs in various ways. Really intensive crafting mechanics in a game mean that you have to focus less of your time on the PvP/PvE stuff and more time on the crafting side. Some enjoy that, most don't. Most want crafting to be something they can do while they are doing PvP/PvE and they want it to be something that aids them in PvP/PvE. Do I agree with it? Not really. I think SWG was a little too over the top. What happens when you have a system that rewards only the most dedicated and advanced crafters is that those crafters then dictate price and thus the economy and are 99% of the time greedy bastards who know people will pay ridiculous amounts of money for finely crafted gear. So their finely crafted gear at ridiculous prices throws off balance in PvE and PvP even more so then usual. It creates a have/have not system where only a few of the uber crafters and those able to afford their services benefit while the vast majority of the player base is at a disadvantage. I know, I was there in SWG. On the other end of the spectrum, you make crafting too easy and too simple and everyone will become a crafter in addition to what they are doing regularly (PvE/PvP) so it becomes the "norm" so everyone HAS to do crafting otherwise they are at a disadvantage. What's a better way? Well, my ideal crafting system would take too long to type up in this post...
Ya because we want everyone using the same generic weapon with the same generic armor!!! please...oh wait ya we need to make all the raid mobs easy to kill so Joe-Lonely isn't left out as well and can wear the same generic crap.
Personally I think the main reason they avoid complex crafting is because it doesn't cater to the majority of their subscriber base. When crafting is too complicated, people complain. When crafting levels up too slowly, people complain. When crafting is too complicated, usually the only people that ever reach the top are either 1) people who are hardcore and really spend tons of time playing, or a more likely case, 2) tons of people spend $20 to get a macro program to macro them to max level. Saw this in Vanguard, where crafting was complex, took forever to skill up, and there were lots and lots of macroers everywhere doing unattended crafting. While yes you do have few that actually did it themselves, but they are such small faction of the population.
So gaming companies look at whether to design crafting to be too complex for general average gamers, or to design crafting where lots of people can find enjoyment out of. If the company cares about making money, you know what they'll pick. It all comes down to catering to the mass to make sure the time they spent on developing something is going to be used by more than a small fraction of the playerbase.
And LOL @ all the people saying the "Devs" are lazy. What a moronic statement.
Nope. It in fact supports what you said. Players do NOT care about crafting much (not as much as other features). No one has the definitive answer to WHY though.
Nope. It in fact supports what you said. Players do NOT care about crafting much (not as much as other features). No one has the definitive answer to WHY though.
I would think because crafting plays too much like work, it is based on tedium, something players do all day, and generally isn't very exciting to watch, well not as exciting as swordfighting with elves anyway.
Just my guess anyway.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
And LOL @ all the people saying the "Devs" are lazy. What a moronic statement.
Nope. It in fact supports what you said. Players do NOT care about crafting much (not as much as other features). No one has the definitive answer to WHY though.
It's this notion the devs have that somehow just because most people prefer combat play, that there is no need to have complex crafting simply because it caters to a minority of players. In my opinion, this is an absolutely moronic position to take. People wo enjoy dedicated non-combat class/skills in MMO's are usually the ones that bring that layer of richness to the game world that take it to the next level of immersion. This minority of interesting people form the backbone of the community.
Another aspect of this is, these devs assume too much based on WoW's success. There are millions of new players in the genre who HAVE NEVER SEEN DEEP CRAFTING or any other type of non-combat game play in their MMO's. All they know is the theme-park class/level based game play they have had since day one. To assume that none of these people might get into deep crafting or say, being a scientist (think Bio-engineer from SWG) is ludicrous. I came to the MMO genre straight from years and years of FPS games. I had no pen and paper predispositions, or any other past experience that would guide me toward non-combat game play in MMO's. I simply enjoy it, and there is a percentage of people out there who will love this kind of game play. Some of them will love sandbox games. Until we have a couple 'different' games on the market for them to try, we just won't know what the numbers are.
I would say that my game play in SWG was at least 50/50 combat / non-combat. I also remember there were a lot of people who filled the roles as doctors, crafters and entertainers who had exactly ZERO interest in PvE or PvP. In my opinion, these are the people who made the game interesting beyond just the game play. This is wht SWG had a life of it's own completely outside the scope of the weak-ass combat play. The players were the content. Imagine a game with real combat and the freedom for players to be the content as well. It would be awesome.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
It's this notion the devs have that somehow just because most people prefer combat play, that there is no need to have complex crafting simply because it caters to a minority of players. In my opinion, this is an absolutely moronic position to take. People wo enjoy dedicated non-combat class/skills in MMO's are usually the ones that bring that layer of richness to the game world that take it to the next level of immersion. This minority of interesting people form the backbone of the community.
None of the successful MMORPGs (WOW most obviously) have deep crafting. So you don't need it to be successful. Sure, you can hypothesize about what it may bring, but those are guesses. There is no reason why developers should not spend their LIMITED resources on what player asks for (quests, #1 on the surve, for example), than something that may or may not be valuable to the community.
It's this notion the devs have that somehow just because most people prefer combat play, that there is no need to have complex crafting simply because it caters to a minority of players. In my opinion, this is an absolutely moronic position to take. People wo enjoy dedicated non-combat class/skills in MMO's are usually the ones that bring that layer of richness to the game world that take it to the next level of immersion. This minority of interesting people form the backbone of the community. None of the successful MMORPGs (WOW most obviously) have deep crafting. So you don't need it to be successful. Sure, you can hypothesize about what it may bring, but those are guesses. There is no reason why developers should not spend their LIMITED resources on what player asks for (quests, #1 on the surve, for example), than something that may or may not be valuable to the community. That is simple risk management.
No they are not guesses because those of us who played MMO's prior to WoW know exactly what it brought to the games. Also, I don't know if you have noticed but several AAA games have utterly TANKED in the last few years, and several more coming down the line who subscribe to your mainstream idea of what an MMO game is are going to fail miserably as well. The result is tens of millions, possibly hundreds of millions of dollars completely flushed down the crapper. It seems to me that "risk management" today should include a good dose of making the gameplay more rich and diverse along with actually making the game playable before it releases.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
Devs are generally not opposed to complex crafting, but as it's alot of work to design and code a really good and complex crafting system.
The work is usually a wasted effort, as the usual crowd doesn't like to do complex stuff in a game.
However, there's examples of MMOs where you have more complex crafting-systems and a working economy: EvE Online SWG preCU to note as an example.
These games dont have the largest playerbase for sure, but they have the most dedicated and mature communities of all them MMOs outthere.
It's up to the developer to decide, if he want's a large and therefore "come-and-go" community, or if they want a sworn in dedicated and mature community, that will play their game for several years.
After this is decided, they can think about implementing a deep crafting-system or if they can do without it.
Ryzom has good crafting. I've just created a new account to try it for free to check out the state of the game currently. The newbie area is empty. Literally! Well, I was there briefly. But no one is playing Ryzom. So the above poster might be right. Ryzom is also a sandbox, as players keep asking for. If players want crafting and sandbox why is Ryzom empty?
just a quick check for myself i counted 15
so empty - no
are you full of shit - yes
except for that part about Ryzom having good crafting - definitely
it is bad enough farming the mats all the time wasting our lives away like zombies please don't ask for more of a timesink as with what you want it makes the time spent in game only worse ...
of all the idiotic statements i've read so far this is the most idotic
so leave the crafting to the crafters - there really isn't a lot of point to it if it is easy (like eqII) and everyone can and will do it
i haven't run across a game yet that FORCES you to craft to advance your character ingame
it is bad enough farming the mats all the time wasting our lives away like zombies please don't ask for more of a timesink as with what you want it makes the time spent in game only worse ...
of all the idiotic statements i've read so far this is the most idotic
so leave the crafting to the crafters - there really isn't a lot of point to it if it is easy (like eqII) and everyone can and will do it
i haven't run across a game yet that FORCES you to craft to advance your character ingame
This ^^^^^ Just cos complex crafting and gathering is in game doesnt mean you questers have to do it... Go quest and stuff and leave the other stuff to those that enjoy it.... Just because you adventurers think its boring, doesnt mean it shouldnt be in game... Stop being self centred idiots !
Ryzom has good crafting. I've just created a new account to try it for free to check out the state of the game currently. The newbie area is empty. Literally! Well, I was there briefly. But no one is playing Ryzom. So the above poster might be right. Ryzom is also a sandbox, as players keep asking for. If players want crafting and sandbox why is Ryzom empty?
just a quick check for myself i counted 15
so empty - no
are you full of shit - yes
except for that part about Ryzom having good crafting - definitely
15 players? Well done. That's in a one English server game. I've been trying out the newbie areas in Ryzom. It is dead. Completely dead. If you try to tell me Ryzom is a popular game you're deluded. The fact is Ryzom is one of a few sandbox games with good crafting and it is one of the least popular MMO games. Devs would be very unwise to take notice of what the vocal players say on here. Making another WoW clone would get you more players, as Ryzom shows. That's why running Ryzom has become an altruistic venture. Games companies must look at the example of Ryzom and think, that's not the way to go. My guess is Ryzom will shut down again in the not too distant future, unless the company currently running really do see it as a charity case.
15 players? Well done. That's in a one English server game. I've been trying out the newbie areas in Ryzom. It is dead. Completely dead. If you try to tell me Ryzom is a popular game you're deluded. The fact is Ryzom is one of a few sandbox games with good crafting and it is one of the least popular MMO games. Devs would be very unwise to take notice of what the vocal players say on here. Making another WoW clone would get you more players, as Ryzom shows. That's why running Ryzom has become an altruistic venture. Games companies must look at the example of Ryzom and think, that's not the way to go. My guess is Ryzom will shut down again in the not too distant future, unless the company currently running really do see it as a charity case.
I've seen a good amount of people over the last few days there, but not a ton. I do find it funny that threads like this surface all the time, people wondering why there aren't any new games with that crafting style. Well, Ryzom is that game, and has been since 2004. Non-class, skill-based system where you get better at skills by using them, open non-linear sandbox world without the themepark symdrome, and a crafting system that sounds about as close as any MMORPG has to what the OP described these days. Hell, it's even cheaper than most subscription MMORPGs, at 11 dollars a month.
Really now, if you're going to rally behind concepts like those, why not actually play?
I think one can fight RMT without having to renounce crafting. For example, in Vanguard, you need a special item to unlock some special raid crafted gear. You cannot get this special item in another way but from drops from raids - and these drops are quite rare, too, so you really have to participate in raiding a lot to get them.
While not quite as good as SWG (nothing ever will probably be). Vanguard has a very unique crafting system that is kind of custom.
Well - it is good in respect to "many options available".
It is not good in respect that your items actually differ from someone elses, unless the other guy has a different idea of what would be a good thing to craft.
Meaning if you are a Weaponsmith (one out of the 6 available crafter professions) and choose to make, say, a popular design like a threstan style Hammer with the crafting catalysts "Attuning Crystals of Veneration", "Resonating Crystals of Striking" and "Focusing Crystals of Pain", and upgrade it to heroic quality with a "Adamantine Ore" harvest, the final result will always be the very common "Flawless Jagged Hammer of Striking", and nothing but the nametag will differ about the item from what any other Weaponsmith would produce, unless you somehow dont manage to get the quality to 75% (socalled A grade) which would actually make the stats on the weapon degrade.
Granted, I have 6 different crafters, one of each crafter trade, and I had my fair share of "server first" and "game first" items. But it is not like in SWG where items are really unique and different. All you can do in Vanguard is learning to make the right items, and to know which effects are worthwhile in what circumstances.
15 players? Well done. That's in a one English server game. I've been trying out the newbie areas in Ryzom. It is dead. Completely dead. If you try to tell me Ryzom is a popular game you're deluded. The fact is Ryzom is one of a few sandbox games with good crafting and it is one of the least popular MMO games. Devs would be very unwise to take notice of what the vocal players say on here. Making another WoW clone would get you more players, as Ryzom shows. That's why running Ryzom has become an altruistic venture. Games companies must look at the example of Ryzom and think, that's not the way to go. My guess is Ryzom will shut down again in the not too distant future, unless the company currently running really do see it as a charity case.
I've seen a good amount of people over the last few days there, but not a ton. I do find it funny that threads like this surface all the time, people wondering why there aren't any new games with that crafting style. Well, Ryzom is that game, and has been since 2004. Non-class, skill-based system where you get better at skills by using them, open non-linear sandbox world without the themepark symdrome, and a crafting system that sounds about as close as any MMORPG has to what the OP described these days. Hell, it's even cheaper than most subscription MMORPGs, at 11 dollars a month.
Really now, if you're going to rally behind concepts like those, why not actually play?
Exactly! And why would developers look at the example of Ryzom and feel inclined to make that sort of game? Maybe more people like talking about sandbox games than actually like playing them. There are numerous games like WoW and still people flock to play new ones. Ryzom is pretty unique and yet it struggles to get any players, yet all we hear about on MMORPG is sandbox this and that, 'themepark' games are dreadful etc...
imagine if there was only one type of music genre, lets say it was classical, not everyone likes classical music but thats all they play on the radio. This is where we are at with mmo's.
This is to explain why the developers of most games do not attempt to do the same stupidity that the original OP told you about.
The original OP didnt say there was not only 3 stats on each item material but also that each planet in the game yielded its own version and there where over 10 varieties of each commodiity possibly more.
The game would in no way shape or form allow you to say put Talosian Water with Nabonian Water....nor could you stack it if the items had differing stats...so basically SWG has major problems becasues they introduced a database of worthless items....
They have millions of differing commoditys taking up database space that could be utilized for something else.
Elso the OP failed to mention that the statistics dont realy matter in the end product....their is a random formula in each craft attempt that may or may not use some of the values.....
They have not chnaged that for a while
As to why the developers dont do a more complex craft system....they have tried with games like Everquest 2 and even tried making it more complex on free games like FLYFF and for a while even in games like Final Fantasy XI.
The net result was the same...players didnt wat to have to sit around for hours wasting time to create a simple pair of gloves...they wanted to have crafting but not something wasting time.
So the developers realized this and changed it.
If you think complexity is supposed ot have millions of craft items.....another example of this failure which probably was another nail its coffin was the system of Auto Assault.....it featured this system where you had to continualy get better craft materials to continualy make better items whihc makes sense...the problem was that after a while as you leveled you stoppe getting alot of the basic materials to make the original items and in addition the re-exoctic things for high level sufffered the same problem final fantasy xi had whihc was you had to kill harder creatures that a character could by themselves anymore.
Games like Worlds of Warcraft have this same problem....their level system is obsolete and highly broken at high levels....as you always have to have a group to be able to tackle certain things...and as usual you may or may not get the item drop and may or may not be the person who will get it if it drops....ergo the thing that makes world of warcraft a bad game...the 1 in a billion chance you might get something you actualy want.
Teh real sad part is that the designers of worlds of warcraft....love that system becasue it encourages the players to go and use the companies own gold sellers and item sellers....notice how they dont crack down and sue certain groups?....yep thats becasue even though they could close the ISP and block it...or even use the computer IDs of te offending sellers and ban them....they do not...and no it wont catch anyone else either...each computer that logs onto a network prodly displays its ID number....its no big secret...you can use simple commands to display it if you run a network....some programs even display it already...but go figure i am on a tangent.
Anywise thats why no one who has a clue resorts to those bad sorts of systems...
The one the OP asked about is becasue the develoeprs realized Naboo Dark water of 555 656 444 and Tatooine Dark Water of 557 666 and 333 are basicaly the same item and should not be stacked seprately or handled separtly....and also they read the code and realized the crafting skill and luck was more or less involved in creating good items in that game.
So they dont waste time with non-essentials that make a game bad.....
Besides you still can't use certan colors for the items you make in SWG....go figure they never did fix their craft engine after this many years.
I think its just a matter of resources typically. As most MMO players aren't huge crafters (speaking about overall population here), it has become almost an after-thought in many of the recent releases. In those releases, the developers didn't even finish important gameplay elements, let alone get a good crafting system in......
It's this notion the devs have that somehow just because most people prefer combat play, that there is no need to have complex crafting simply because it caters to a minority of players. In my opinion, this is an absolutely moronic position to take. People wo enjoy dedicated non-combat class/skills in MMO's are usually the ones that bring that layer of richness to the game world that take it to the next level of immersion. This minority of interesting people form the backbone of the community. None of the successful MMORPGs (WOW most obviously) have deep crafting. So you don't need it to be successful. Sure, you can hypothesize about what it may bring, but those are guesses. There is no reason why developers should not spend their LIMITED resources on what player asks for (quests, #1 on the surve, for example), than something that may or may not be valuable to the community. That is simple risk management.
No they are not guesses because those of us who played MMO's prior to WoW know exactly what it brought to the games. Also, I don't know if you have noticed but several AAA games have utterly TANKED in the last few years, and several more coming down the line who subscribe to your mainstream idea of what an MMO game is are going to fail miserably as well. The result is tens of millions, possibly hundreds of millions of dollars completely flushed down the crapper. It seems to me that "risk management" today should include a good dose of making the gameplay more rich and diverse along with actually making the game playable before it releases.
Really? I started with UO and played EQ for a long while. I don't remember any deep crafting in EQ.
And how about those games that did not tank? GW, LOTRO, ... do those have deep crafting??
it is bad enough farming the mats all the time wasting our lives away like zombies please don't ask for more of a timesink as with what you want it makes the time spent in game only worse ...
of all the idiotic statements i've read so far this is the most idotic
so leave the crafting to the crafters - there really isn't a lot of point to it if it is easy (like eqII) and everyone can and will do it
i haven't run across a game yet that FORCES you to craft to advance your character ingame
Only that development takes RESOURCE. I would much rather developers spending their resource in making new dungeons than a complex craft system.
Comments
There is a simple reason for this: if the system limits players too much they will find ways of cicumventing it or abandom it (and probably the game as well).
The 'value' of an item is highly subjective. If player's feel that the game is ripping them off on the trade they will not trade.
To the OP -
I was a Master Weaponsmith pre-cu. I think some of the things mentioned by others played a role (economy, balance, crafting popularity, etc.), but I suspect a lot of it came down to maintenance possibly being too costly.
Many folks were (and still are, most likely) in the habit of making wall collections of all their old weapons - even after they've become useless. The existence of these objects still have to be tracked. Even with virtual servers, what they created was a system that would grow with no real probability of it ever shrinking - and no way of controlling it. Depending on how they were set up to handle it, it could have simply become too financially impractical to maintain the way it was.
I could be wrong about all this of course, since it's still possible to make, display and sell things - albeit with a much smaller playerbase.
One thing we can probably be sure of though...in the end, it all boils down to the bottom-line $$$.
Ya because we want everyone using the same generic weapon with the same generic armor!!! please...oh wait ya we need to make all the raid mobs easy to kill so Joe-Lonely isn't left out as well and can wear the same generic crap.
cmon!! get a clue.
PIRATE LORDS
Personally I think the main reason they avoid complex crafting is because it doesn't cater to the majority of their subscriber base. When crafting is too complicated, people complain. When crafting levels up too slowly, people complain. When crafting is too complicated, usually the only people that ever reach the top are either 1) people who are hardcore and really spend tons of time playing, or a more likely case, 2) tons of people spend $20 to get a macro program to macro them to max level. Saw this in Vanguard, where crafting was complex, took forever to skill up, and there were lots and lots of macroers everywhere doing unattended crafting. While yes you do have few that actually did it themselves, but they are such small faction of the population.
So gaming companies look at whether to design crafting to be too complex for general average gamers, or to design crafting where lots of people can find enjoyment out of. If the company cares about making money, you know what they'll pick. It all comes down to catering to the mass to make sure the time they spent on developing something is going to be used by more than a small fraction of the playerbase.
EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-DDO-GW-LoTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO
FIFY!
Crafting is just not high in priority. A poll on the Daedalus project shows that it is #7, behind things like quests.
http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/001630.php
That, does not negate what i said, now does it?
And LOL @ all the people saying the "Devs" are lazy. What a moronic statement.
Nope. It in fact supports what you said. Players do NOT care about crafting much (not as much as other features). No one has the definitive answer to WHY though.
I would think because crafting plays too much like work, it is based on tedium, something players do all day, and generally isn't very exciting to watch, well not as exciting as swordfighting with elves anyway.
Just my guess anyway.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
FIFY!
Crafting is just not high in priority. A poll on the Daedalus project shows that it is #7, behind things like quests.
http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/001630.php
That, does not negate what i said, now does it?
And LOL @ all the people saying the "Devs" are lazy. What a moronic statement.
Nope. It in fact supports what you said. Players do NOT care about crafting much (not as much as other features). No one has the definitive answer to WHY though.
It's this notion the devs have that somehow just because most people prefer combat play, that there is no need to have complex crafting simply because it caters to a minority of players. In my opinion, this is an absolutely moronic position to take. People wo enjoy dedicated non-combat class/skills in MMO's are usually the ones that bring that layer of richness to the game world that take it to the next level of immersion. This minority of interesting people form the backbone of the community.
Another aspect of this is, these devs assume too much based on WoW's success. There are millions of new players in the genre who HAVE NEVER SEEN DEEP CRAFTING or any other type of non-combat game play in their MMO's. All they know is the theme-park class/level based game play they have had since day one. To assume that none of these people might get into deep crafting or say, being a scientist (think Bio-engineer from SWG) is ludicrous. I came to the MMO genre straight from years and years of FPS games. I had no pen and paper predispositions, or any other past experience that would guide me toward non-combat game play in MMO's. I simply enjoy it, and there is a percentage of people out there who will love this kind of game play. Some of them will love sandbox games. Until we have a couple 'different' games on the market for them to try, we just won't know what the numbers are.
I would say that my game play in SWG was at least 50/50 combat / non-combat. I also remember there were a lot of people who filled the roles as doctors, crafters and entertainers who had exactly ZERO interest in PvE or PvP. In my opinion, these are the people who made the game interesting beyond just the game play. This is wht SWG had a life of it's own completely outside the scope of the weak-ass combat play. The players were the content. Imagine a game with real combat and the freedom for players to be the content as well. It would be awesome.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
It's this notion the devs have that somehow just because most people prefer combat play, that there is no need to have complex crafting simply because it caters to a minority of players. In my opinion, this is an absolutely moronic position to take. People wo enjoy dedicated non-combat class/skills in MMO's are usually the ones that bring that layer of richness to the game world that take it to the next level of immersion. This minority of interesting people form the backbone of the community.
None of the successful MMORPGs (WOW most obviously) have deep crafting. So you don't need it to be successful. Sure, you can hypothesize about what it may bring, but those are guesses. There is no reason why developers should not spend their LIMITED resources on what player asks for (quests, #1 on the surve, for example), than something that may or may not be valuable to the community.
That is simple risk management.
No they are not guesses because those of us who played MMO's prior to WoW know exactly what it brought to the games. Also, I don't know if you have noticed but several AAA games have utterly TANKED in the last few years, and several more coming down the line who subscribe to your mainstream idea of what an MMO game is are going to fail miserably as well. The result is tens of millions, possibly hundreds of millions of dollars completely flushed down the crapper. It seems to me that "risk management" today should include a good dose of making the gameplay more rich and diverse along with actually making the game playable before it releases.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
To be short, people who have short attention spans like me. We've ruined it for you guys, sorry. Direct all hate towards Smed.....
Devs are generally not opposed to complex crafting, but as it's alot of work to design and code a really good and complex crafting system.
The work is usually a wasted effort, as the usual crowd doesn't like to do complex stuff in a game.
However, there's examples of MMOs where you have more complex crafting-systems and a working economy: EvE Online SWG preCU to note as an example.
These games dont have the largest playerbase for sure, but they have the most dedicated and mature communities of all them MMOs outthere.
It's up to the developer to decide, if he want's a large and therefore "come-and-go" community, or if they want a sworn in dedicated and mature community, that will play their game for several years.
After this is decided, they can think about implementing a deep crafting-system or if they can do without it.
just a quick check for myself i counted 15
so empty - no
are you full of shit - yes
except for that part about Ryzom having good crafting - definitely
of all the idiotic statements i've read so far this is the most idotic
so leave the crafting to the crafters - there really isn't a lot of point to it if it is easy (like eqII) and everyone can and will do it
i haven't run across a game yet that FORCES you to craft to advance your character ingame
of all the idiotic statements i've read so far this is the most idotic
so leave the crafting to the crafters - there really isn't a lot of point to it if it is easy (like eqII) and everyone can and will do it
i haven't run across a game yet that FORCES you to craft to advance your character ingame
This ^^^^^ Just cos complex crafting and gathering is in game doesnt mean you questers have to do it... Go quest and stuff and leave the other stuff to those that enjoy it.... Just because you adventurers think its boring, doesnt mean it shouldnt be in game... Stop being self centred idiots !
just a quick check for myself i counted 15
so empty - no
are you full of shit - yes
except for that part about Ryzom having good crafting - definitely
15 players? Well done. That's in a one English server game. I've been trying out the newbie areas in Ryzom. It is dead. Completely dead. If you try to tell me Ryzom is a popular game you're deluded. The fact is Ryzom is one of a few sandbox games with good crafting and it is one of the least popular MMO games. Devs would be very unwise to take notice of what the vocal players say on here. Making another WoW clone would get you more players, as Ryzom shows. That's why running Ryzom has become an altruistic venture. Games companies must look at the example of Ryzom and think, that's not the way to go. My guess is Ryzom will shut down again in the not too distant future, unless the company currently running really do see it as a charity case.
I've seen a good amount of people over the last few days there, but not a ton. I do find it funny that threads like this surface all the time, people wondering why there aren't any new games with that crafting style. Well, Ryzom is that game, and has been since 2004. Non-class, skill-based system where you get better at skills by using them, open non-linear sandbox world without the themepark symdrome, and a crafting system that sounds about as close as any MMORPG has to what the OP described these days. Hell, it's even cheaper than most subscription MMORPGs, at 11 dollars a month.
Really now, if you're going to rally behind concepts like those, why not actually play?
The SWG system sounds actually nice-ish.
I think one can fight RMT without having to renounce crafting. For example, in Vanguard, you need a special item to unlock some special raid crafted gear. You cannot get this special item in another way but from drops from raids - and these drops are quite rare, too, so you really have to participate in raiding a lot to get them.
Well - it is good in respect to "many options available".
It is not good in respect that your items actually differ from someone elses, unless the other guy has a different idea of what would be a good thing to craft.
Meaning if you are a Weaponsmith (one out of the 6 available crafter professions) and choose to make, say, a popular design like a threstan style Hammer with the crafting catalysts "Attuning Crystals of Veneration", "Resonating Crystals of Striking" and "Focusing Crystals of Pain", and upgrade it to heroic quality with a "Adamantine Ore" harvest, the final result will always be the very common "Flawless Jagged Hammer of Striking", and nothing but the nametag will differ about the item from what any other Weaponsmith would produce, unless you somehow dont manage to get the quality to 75% (socalled A grade) which would actually make the stats on the weapon degrade.
Granted, I have 6 different crafters, one of each crafter trade, and I had my fair share of "server first" and "game first" items. But it is not like in SWG where items are really unique and different. All you can do in Vanguard is learning to make the right items, and to know which effects are worthwhile in what circumstances.
I've seen a good amount of people over the last few days there, but not a ton. I do find it funny that threads like this surface all the time, people wondering why there aren't any new games with that crafting style. Well, Ryzom is that game, and has been since 2004. Non-class, skill-based system where you get better at skills by using them, open non-linear sandbox world without the themepark symdrome, and a crafting system that sounds about as close as any MMORPG has to what the OP described these days. Hell, it's even cheaper than most subscription MMORPGs, at 11 dollars a month.
Really now, if you're going to rally behind concepts like those, why not actually play?
Exactly! And why would developers look at the example of Ryzom and feel inclined to make that sort of game? Maybe more people like talking about sandbox games than actually like playing them. There are numerous games like WoW and still people flock to play new ones. Ryzom is pretty unique and yet it struggles to get any players, yet all we hear about on MMORPG is sandbox this and that, 'themepark' games are dreadful etc...
imagine if there was only one type of music genre, lets say it was classical, not everyone likes classical music but thats all they play on the radio. This is where we are at with mmo's.
This is to explain why the developers of most games do not attempt to do the same stupidity that the original OP told you about.
The original OP didnt say there was not only 3 stats on each item material but also that each planet in the game yielded its own version and there where over 10 varieties of each commodiity possibly more.
The game would in no way shape or form allow you to say put Talosian Water with Nabonian Water....nor could you stack it if the items had differing stats...so basically SWG has major problems becasues they introduced a database of worthless items....
They have millions of differing commoditys taking up database space that could be utilized for something else.
Elso the OP failed to mention that the statistics dont realy matter in the end product....their is a random formula in each craft attempt that may or may not use some of the values.....
They have not chnaged that for a while
As to why the developers dont do a more complex craft system....they have tried with games like Everquest 2 and even tried making it more complex on free games like FLYFF and for a while even in games like Final Fantasy XI.
The net result was the same...players didnt wat to have to sit around for hours wasting time to create a simple pair of gloves...they wanted to have crafting but not something wasting time.
So the developers realized this and changed it.
If you think complexity is supposed ot have millions of craft items.....another example of this failure which probably was another nail its coffin was the system of Auto Assault.....it featured this system where you had to continualy get better craft materials to continualy make better items whihc makes sense...the problem was that after a while as you leveled you stoppe getting alot of the basic materials to make the original items and in addition the re-exoctic things for high level sufffered the same problem final fantasy xi had whihc was you had to kill harder creatures that a character could by themselves anymore.
Games like Worlds of Warcraft have this same problem....their level system is obsolete and highly broken at high levels....as you always have to have a group to be able to tackle certain things...and as usual you may or may not get the item drop and may or may not be the person who will get it if it drops....ergo the thing that makes world of warcraft a bad game...the 1 in a billion chance you might get something you actualy want.
Teh real sad part is that the designers of worlds of warcraft....love that system becasue it encourages the players to go and use the companies own gold sellers and item sellers....notice how they dont crack down and sue certain groups?....yep thats becasue even though they could close the ISP and block it...or even use the computer IDs of te offending sellers and ban them....they do not...and no it wont catch anyone else either...each computer that logs onto a network prodly displays its ID number....its no big secret...you can use simple commands to display it if you run a network....some programs even display it already...but go figure i am on a tangent.
Anywise thats why no one who has a clue resorts to those bad sorts of systems...
The one the OP asked about is becasue the develoeprs realized Naboo Dark water of 555 656 444 and Tatooine Dark Water of 557 666 and 333 are basicaly the same item and should not be stacked seprately or handled separtly....and also they read the code and realized the crafting skill and luck was more or less involved in creating good items in that game.
So they dont waste time with non-essentials that make a game bad.....
Besides you still can't use certan colors for the items you make in SWG....go figure they never did fix their craft engine after this many years.
I think its just a matter of resources typically. As most MMO players aren't huge crafters (speaking about overall population here), it has become almost an after-thought in many of the recent releases. In those releases, the developers didn't even finish important gameplay elements, let alone get a good crafting system in......
No they are not guesses because those of us who played MMO's prior to WoW know exactly what it brought to the games. Also, I don't know if you have noticed but several AAA games have utterly TANKED in the last few years, and several more coming down the line who subscribe to your mainstream idea of what an MMO game is are going to fail miserably as well. The result is tens of millions, possibly hundreds of millions of dollars completely flushed down the crapper. It seems to me that "risk management" today should include a good dose of making the gameplay more rich and diverse along with actually making the game playable before it releases.
Really? I started with UO and played EQ for a long while. I don't remember any deep crafting in EQ.
And how about those games that did not tank? GW, LOTRO, ... do those have deep crafting??
of all the idiotic statements i've read so far this is the most idotic
so leave the crafting to the crafters - there really isn't a lot of point to it if it is easy (like eqII) and everyone can and will do it
i haven't run across a game yet that FORCES you to craft to advance your character ingame
Only that development takes RESOURCE. I would much rather developers spending their resource in making new dungeons than a complex craft system.
In the general pecking order of selling points for an MMO, deep crafting doesn't see very high on the list.
To be honest, I've had more people request angel-wings than suggest I put more time into crafting. Kind of sad, huh?
Ken
www.ActionMMORPG.com
One man, a small pile of money, and the screwball idea of a DIY Indie MMORPG? Yep, that's him. ~sigh~