In the general pecking order of selling points for an MMO, deep crafting doesn't see very high on the list. To be honest, I've had more people request angel-wings than suggest I put more time into crafting. Kind of sad, huh? Ken
Why is it sad? The majority of people are getting what they want. You can't please everyone in the world.
Ryzom has good crafting. I've just created a new account to try it for free to check out the state of the game currently. The newbie area is empty. Literally! Well, I was there briefly. But no one is playing Ryzom. So the above poster might be right. Ryzom is also a sandbox, as players keep asking for. If players want crafting and sandbox why is Ryzom empty?
just a quick check for myself i counted 15
so empty - no
are you full of shit - yes
except for that part about Ryzom having good crafting - definitely
15 players? Well done. That's in a one English server game. I've been trying out the newbie areas in Ryzom. It is dead. Completely dead. If you try to tell me Ryzom is a popular game you're deluded. The fact is Ryzom is one of a few sandbox games with good crafting and it is one of the least popular MMO games. Devs would be very unwise to take notice of what the vocal players say on here. Making another WoW clone would get you more players, as Ryzom shows. That's why running Ryzom has become an altruistic venture. Games companies must look at the example of Ryzom and think, that's not the way to go. My guess is Ryzom will shut down again in the not too distant future, unless the company currently running really do see it as a charity case.
Well, I don't know what to tell you. Ryzom launched 9/20/04 and at that time most people who were into haeavy crafting were probably playing SWG as the NGE wasn't upon us. Add to that Ryzom was made by a company that wasn't well known and you probably have alot of the reason it doesn't have the numbers.
As I keep saying, I'd like to see how a crafting system in a game that rivals the one in pre NGE SWG put into a game by one of the top tier companies (other than SOE or Funcom) would do. Ideally this would be Turbine, Mythic or Blizzard as they, in my mind, aren't as bad as the first two I mention. Or by 38 Studios because I know that those guys, while not well known as they are making their first MMO, can still generate that "top tier" MMO company money to produce a game.
I can understand if you, and others, don't care to play a sandboxish game with a deep crafting system. But there are plenty of people, more than enough for a company to make a profit, who are. The industry only has one game like that, as you say, that is Ryzom. A 4-5 year old MMO. The industry has has tons of the themepark games that I'm guessing you like to play. A little diversity wouldn't hurt and having just one top tier company make such a game isn't too much to ask.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
The norm now days is WoW, clear and simple. I've seen 15 millions games that are like WoW (No not clones...just "like")
Anyways and in wow you play for a year and you've mastered teh crafting, and if you are on alot then you have mastered ALL of the crafting.
I have a friend who has been playing a year and (like a month) on WoW, he has 3 lvl 80's and at least 4 crafting skills maxed. Its just dumb, they make there money in WoW doing "dailies" tell me how that is better then crafting...point is its not.
And thats the main reson I left wow. I love crafting, and I hated spending a month on a skill getting it maxed out and then competing with "serously" 15-25 other players with the same items on the AH.
15 players? Well done. That's in a one English server game. I've been trying out the newbie areas in Ryzom. It is dead. Completely dead. If you try to tell me Ryzom is a popular game you're deluded. The fact is Ryzom is one of a few sandbox games with good crafting and it is one of the least popular MMO games. Devs would be very unwise to take notice of what the vocal players say on here. Making another WoW clone would get you more players, as Ryzom shows. That's why running Ryzom has become an altruistic venture. Games companies must look at the example of Ryzom and think, that's not the way to go. My guess is Ryzom will shut down again in the not too distant future, unless the company currently running really do see it as a charity case.
Well, I don't know what to tell you. Ryzom launched 9/20/04 and at that time most people who were into haeavy crafting were probably playing SWG as the NGE wasn't upon us. Add to that Ryzom was made by a company that wasn't well known and you probably have alot of the reason it doesn't have the numbers.
As I keep saying, I'd like to see how a crafting system in a game that rivals the one in pre NGE SWG put into a game by one of the top tier companies (other than SOE or Funcom) would do. Ideally this would be Turbine, Mythic or Blizzard as they, in my mind, aren't as bad as the first two I mention. Or by 38 Studios because I know that those guys, while not well known as they are making their first MMO, can still generate that "top tier" MMO company money to produce a game.
I can understand if you, and others, don't care to play a sandboxish game with a deep crafting system. But there are plenty of people, more than enough for a company to make a profit, who are. The industry only has one game like that, as you say, that is Ryzom. A 4-5 year old MMO. The industry has has tons of the themepark games that I'm guessing you like to play. A little diversity wouldn't hurt and having just one top tier company make such a game isn't too much to ask.
No, I like Ryzom. But it's not getting the players. It's a sandbox game and yet where are all these sandbox fans? Not playing Ryzom. Now you're telling me it has to be made by Blizzard or something?
Basically I think a lot of people on MMORPG are full of shit. They talk about sandbox games but don't play them when they're there! And that is not the developer's fault. Why would one top tier company make a game like Ryzom when it's one of the least popular MMOs around. And I repeat, I like Ryzom. I'm not criticising the game itself. I doubt it has much future though, unfortunately.
Ryzom has good crafting. I've just created a new account to try it for free to check out the state of the game currently. The newbie area is empty. Literally! Well, I was there briefly. But no one is playing Ryzom. So the above poster might be right. Ryzom is also a sandbox, as players keep asking for. If players want crafting and sandbox why is Ryzom empty?
just a quick check for myself i counted 15
so empty - no
are you full of shit - yes
except for that part about Ryzom having good crafting - definitely
15 players? Well done. That's in a one English server game. I've been trying out the newbie areas in Ryzom. It is dead. Completely dead. If you try to tell me Ryzom is a popular game you're deluded. The fact is Ryzom is one of a few sandbox games with good crafting and it is one of the least popular MMO games. Devs would be very unwise to take notice of what the vocal players say on here. Making another WoW clone would get you more players, as Ryzom shows. That's why running Ryzom has become an altruistic venture. Games companies must look at the example of Ryzom and think, that's not the way to go. My guess is Ryzom will shut down again in the not too distant future, unless the company currently running really do see it as a charity case.
Well, I don't know what to tell you. Ryzom launched 9/20/04 and at that time most people who were into haeavy crafting were probably playing SWG as the NGE wasn't upon us. Add to that Ryzom was made by a company that wasn't well known and you probably have alot of the reason it doesn't have the numbers.
As I keep saying, I'd like to see how a crafting system in a game that rivals the one in pre NGE SWG put into a game by one of the top tier companies (other than SOE or Funcom) would do. Ideally this would be Turbine, Mythic or Blizzard as they, in my mind, aren't as bad as the first two I mention. Or by 38 Studios because I know that those guys, while not well known as they are making their first MMO, can still generate that "top tier" MMO company money to produce a game.
I can understand if you, and others, don't care to play a sandboxish game with a deep crafting system. But there are plenty of people, more than enough for a company to make a profit, who are. The industry only has one game like that, as you say, that is Ryzom. A 4-5 year old MMO. The industry has has tons of the themepark games that I'm guessing you like to play. A little diversity wouldn't hurt and having just one top tier company make such a game isn't too much to ask.
Turbine all ready did. So did SOE.
Also, Ryzom has been shut down 3 times now.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
15 players? Well done. That's in a one English server game. I've been trying out the newbie areas in Ryzom. It is dead. Completely dead. If you try to tell me Ryzom is a popular game you're deluded. The fact is Ryzom is one of a few sandbox games with good crafting and it is one of the least popular MMO games. Devs would be very unwise to take notice of what the vocal players say on here. Making another WoW clone would get you more players, as Ryzom shows. That's why running Ryzom has become an altruistic venture. Games companies must look at the example of Ryzom and think, that's not the way to go. My guess is Ryzom will shut down again in the not too distant future, unless the company currently running really do see it as a charity case.
Well, I don't know what to tell you. Ryzom launched 9/20/04 and at that time most people who were into haeavy crafting were probably playing SWG as the NGE wasn't upon us. Add to that Ryzom was made by a company that wasn't well known and you probably have alot of the reason it doesn't have the numbers.
As I keep saying, I'd like to see how a crafting system in a game that rivals the one in pre NGE SWG put into a game by one of the top tier companies (other than SOE or Funcom) would do. Ideally this would be Turbine, Mythic or Blizzard as they, in my mind, aren't as bad as the first two I mention. Or by 38 Studios because I know that those guys, while not well known as they are making their first MMO, can still generate that "top tier" MMO company money to produce a game.
I can understand if you, and others, don't care to play a sandboxish game with a deep crafting system. But there are plenty of people, more than enough for a company to make a profit, who are. The industry only has one game like that, as you say, that is Ryzom. A 4-5 year old MMO. The industry has has tons of the themepark games that I'm guessing you like to play. A little diversity wouldn't hurt and having just one top tier company make such a game isn't too much to ask.
No, I like Ryzom. But it's not getting the players. It's a sandbox game and yet where are all these sandbox fans? Not playing Ryzom. Now you're telling me it has to be made by Blizzard or something?
Basically I think a lot of people on MMORPG are full of shit. They talk about sandbox games but don't play them when they're there! And that is not the developer's fault. Why would one top tier company make a game like Ryzom when it's one of the least popular MMOs around. And I repeat, I like Ryzom. I'm not criticising the game itself. I doubt it has much future though, unfortunately.
Then there just has to be something else about Ryzom that people just don't like.
And I am saying that yes, I'd like to see a sandbox-ish detailed crafting game put out by one of the top tier companies (in no particular order; Blizzard, Turbine, Mythic) that have the money on had to make it a more polished product at launch than most Indy companies can. And while you are focusing on the view of companies looking at Ryzom, I'll go back to SWG (pre NGE) and UO. At their times they had a more than profitable number of subscribers. So, there, in my view, at least two examples of that if done well a sandbox-ish crafting MMO can make a company a profit.
Just because one was made in 2004 doesn't mean more can't be made. I mean, if we go down that route, companies should never make a themepark MMO again because Tabula Rasa and Matrix Online were closed down. Being closed down is certainly worse than have a low population, lol!
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Ryzom has good crafting. I've just created a new account to try it for free to check out the state of the game currently. The newbie area is empty. Literally! Well, I was there briefly. But no one is playing Ryzom. So the above poster might be right. Ryzom is also a sandbox, as players keep asking for. If players want crafting and sandbox why is Ryzom empty?
just a quick check for myself i counted 15
so empty - no
are you full of shit - yes
except for that part about Ryzom having good crafting - definitely
15 players? Well done. That's in a one English server game. I've been trying out the newbie areas in Ryzom. It is dead. Completely dead. If you try to tell me Ryzom is a popular game you're deluded. The fact is Ryzom is one of a few sandbox games with good crafting and it is one of the least popular MMO games. Devs would be very unwise to take notice of what the vocal players say on here. Making another WoW clone would get you more players, as Ryzom shows. That's why running Ryzom has become an altruistic venture. Games companies must look at the example of Ryzom and think, that's not the way to go. My guess is Ryzom will shut down again in the not too distant future, unless the company currently running really do see it as a charity case.
Well, I don't know what to tell you. Ryzom launched 9/20/04 and at that time most people who were into haeavy crafting were probably playing SWG as the NGE wasn't upon us. Add to that Ryzom was made by a company that wasn't well known and you probably have alot of the reason it doesn't have the numbers.
As I keep saying, I'd like to see how a crafting system in a game that rivals the one in pre NGE SWG put into a game by one of the top tier companies (other than SOE or Funcom) would do. Ideally this would be Turbine, Mythic or Blizzard as they, in my mind, aren't as bad as the first two I mention. Or by 38 Studios because I know that those guys, while not well known as they are making their first MMO, can still generate that "top tier" MMO company money to produce a game.
I can understand if you, and others, don't care to play a sandboxish game with a deep crafting system. But there are plenty of people, more than enough for a company to make a profit, who are. The industry only has one game like that, as you say, that is Ryzom. A 4-5 year old MMO. The industry has has tons of the themepark games that I'm guessing you like to play. A little diversity wouldn't hurt and having just one top tier company make such a game isn't too much to ask.
Turbine all ready did. So did SOE.
Also, Ryzom has been shut down 3 times now.
No, sorry. Course these are all opinions so we'll probably never agree, which is par for the course.
Well, I'll give you Turbine, and Asheron's call is still going. I can't connect to the game b/c of it's network code, however. And while enjoyable, the crafting system wasn't as detailed as SWG (pre NGE). An updated version of AC is sorely needed, in my view.
SOE...Yeah, with pre-NGE. But, that company has so ruined that game and its reputation that I don't really recognize them in the MMO space anymore. Irrelevant is the word that comes to mind. They did, however, give a good lesson of what not to do with an active game, however.
As for Ryzom, I honestly haven't ever really looked at the game until today. *shrug*. Guess they didn't have the PR money that some of the top tier companies had to get the word out about the game. Not that I would have been playing it at it's launch. I was too busy with SWG (pre nge) at the time.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Ryzom has good crafting. I've just created a new account to try it for free to check out the state of the game currently. The newbie area is empty. Literally! Well, I was there briefly. But no one is playing Ryzom. So the above poster might be right. Ryzom is also a sandbox, as players keep asking for. If players want crafting and sandbox why is Ryzom empty?
just a quick check for myself i counted 15
so empty - no
are you full of shit - yes
except for that part about Ryzom having good crafting - definitely
15 players? Well done. That's in a one English server game. I've been trying out the newbie areas in Ryzom. It is dead. Completely dead. If you try to tell me Ryzom is a popular game you're deluded. The fact is Ryzom is one of a few sandbox games with good crafting and it is one of the least popular MMO games. Devs would be very unwise to take notice of what the vocal players say on here. Making another WoW clone would get you more players, as Ryzom shows. That's why running Ryzom has become an altruistic venture. Games companies must look at the example of Ryzom and think, that's not the way to go. My guess is Ryzom will shut down again in the not too distant future, unless the company currently running really do see it as a charity case.
Well, I don't know what to tell you. Ryzom launched 9/20/04 and at that time most people who were into haeavy crafting were probably playing SWG as the NGE wasn't upon us. Add to that Ryzom was made by a company that wasn't well known and you probably have alot of the reason it doesn't have the numbers.
As I keep saying, I'd like to see how a crafting system in a game that rivals the one in pre NGE SWG put into a game by one of the top tier companies (other than SOE or Funcom) would do. Ideally this would be Turbine, Mythic or Blizzard as they, in my mind, aren't as bad as the first two I mention. Or by 38 Studios because I know that those guys, while not well known as they are making their first MMO, can still generate that "top tier" MMO company money to produce a game.
I can understand if you, and others, don't care to play a sandboxish game with a deep crafting system. But there are plenty of people, more than enough for a company to make a profit, who are. The industry only has one game like that, as you say, that is Ryzom. A 4-5 year old MMO. The industry has has tons of the themepark games that I'm guessing you like to play. A little diversity wouldn't hurt and having just one top tier company make such a game isn't too much to ask.
Turbine all ready did. So did SOE.
Also, Ryzom has been shut down 3 times now.
No, sorry. Course these are all opinions so we'll probably never agree, which is par for the course.
Well, I'll give you Turbine, and Asheron's call is still going. I can't connect to the game b/c of it's network code, however. And while enjoyable, the crafting system wasn't as detailed as SWG (pre NGE). An updated version of AC is sorely needed, in my view.
SOE...Yeah, with pre-NGE. But, that company has so ruined that game and its reputation that I don't really recognize them in the MMO space anymore. Irrelevant is the word that comes to mind. They did, however, give a good lesson of what not to do with an active game, however.
As for Ryzom, I honestly haven't ever really looked at the game until today. *shrug*. Guess they didn't have the PR money that some of the top tier companies had to get the word out about the game. Not that I would have been playing it at it's launch. I was too busy with SWG (pre nge) at the time.
I was just pointing out, that AAA developers have already done this. Ryzom is also the first MMO to come with a user editor (that CoH/V recently added). The fact that the NGE happened, kinda shows the point, that they are not popular.
There are TON of Sandbox MMOs out there. Ryzom, Wurm Online, A tale in the desert..To name a few.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
The only game where crafting has been successfully implemented is EVE Online. In every other game, crafting is periphery. The reason that it works in EVE is because every item (more or less) that's ever used in the game is crafted.
The idea of having crafted weapons alongside weapons that drop generally doesn't work in the long run, since they're mutually exclusive. E.g., in WoW there will always be a better drop than the best item anyone can craft. Blizzard has said this, and it's intended to help keep raid progression interesting. That's all well and good, but you have to accept that this negatively impacts the crafting aspect of the game, and crafted items are generally used only as interim items while you're waiting for something better to drop.
But the interesting thing about EVE is that, essentially, the entire economy revolves around crafting. ISK is usually (i.e., over 95% of the time) used to buy crafting materials from other players so that you may craft an item, or it's used to buy an item that someone else has crafted. Some players kill enemies to profit from salvage (used to craft rigs); some players profit by harvesting natural resources; some players profit by transporting crafted items to places with higher demands for those items; some players profit by discovering blueprints (via research) and selling copies; and lastly, some people profit by directly crafting items (using blueprints, natural resources, and salvage). Crafting, as well as everything else in EVE, requires both skill and time, and due to the freedom of the market, how much money you make is directly proportional to how much skill you have, and how much time you're willing to spend.
This all works in EVE because the game is designed around it. EVE is interesting because progress is measured by your total assets, and since scarcity is involved, other players are in direct opposition to your acquisition of wealth which naturally leads to alliances and PVP combat. In WoW, on the other hand, the best items are dropped from NPCs. This makes both the market and crafting non-essential, and it also means there's no scarcity of good items.
So devs are opposed to complex crafting because up until now, there hasn't been a good way to create an incentive for group PVE other than item drops. As soon as they can create a new incentive (perhaps NPCs only drop resources?), then crafting could become a very interesting part of your standard mmo.
The norm now days is WoW, clear and simple. I've seen 15 millions games that are like WoW (No not clones...just "like") Anyways and in wow you play for a year and you've mastered teh crafting, and if you are on alot then you have mastered ALL of the crafting.
I have a friend who has been playing a year and (like a month) on WoW, he has 3 lvl 80's and at least 4 crafting skills maxed. Its just dumb, they make there money in WoW doing "dailies" tell me how that is better then crafting...point is its not. And thats the main reson I left wow. I love crafting, and I hated spending a month on a skill getting it maxed out and then competing with "serously" 15-25 other players with the same items on the AH. ------------------------------------------------------------------- And i've actually got a really easy fix to the whole "rmt" balence thing. and i'll post it up here when I get it all worded the way I want.
WOW is never designed to be a crafting game and it is obviously focused on combat. If you have gold, you can max any profession in an afternoon.
In fact, most players don't care about crafting as such. If you go to the forums, crafting choice is boiled down to which 2 professional will give the biggest DPS boost (or tanking/healing boost depending on ur class/spec) because of its perks. What can be created is somewhat irrelevant.
I was just pointing out, that AAA developers have already done this. Ryzom is also the first MMO to come with a user editor (that CoH/V recently added). The fact that the NGE happened, kinda shows the point, that they are not popular.
There are TON of Sandbox MMOs out there. Ryzom, Wurm Online, A tale in the desert..To name a few.
That's another thing... I play Ryzom, and I used to play a whole lot of Wurm Online. Both of them are sandbox driven games that sound a lot like what people on MMORPG.com say they'd play in a heartbeat. Now, I can understand Wurm Online's low population completely. It's not exactly the most beautiful game to look at, and the combat is... well, I tried to avoid dealing with it. Not to mention how incredibly difficult it can get.
But as for Ryzom... it just seems like it would be a dream come true to a lot of people. Maybe most of these threads are just nostalgia speaking, or people being in love with an idea but actually disliking in when it's in action.
But as for Ryzom... it just seems like it would be a dream come true to a lot of people. Maybe most of these threads are just nostalgia speaking, or people being in love with an idea but actually disliking in when it's in action.
My problem with Ryzom, is that is you can't really explore the world. The moment you abandon a zone, you are killed by a high level monster. So maybe almost everything else is sandbox, but the combat is linear, you have to have level X +1 to kill monsters of level X. I don't even hate that, but it stop all my sandboxing.
The norm now days is WoW, clear and simple. I've seen 15 millions games that are like WoW (No not clones...just "like") Anyways and in wow you play for a year and you've mastered teh crafting, and if you are on alot then you have mastered ALL of the crafting.
I have a friend who has been playing a year and (like a month) on WoW, he has 3 lvl 80's and at least 4 crafting skills maxed. Its just dumb, they make there money in WoW doing "dailies" tell me how that is better then crafting...point is its not. And thats the main reson I left wow. I love crafting, and I hated spending a month on a skill getting it maxed out and then competing with "serously" 15-25 other players with the same items on the AH. ------------------------------------------------------------------- And i've actually got a really easy fix to the whole "rmt" balence thing. and i'll post it up here when I get it all worded the way I want.
WOW is never designed to be a crafting game and it is obviously focused on combat. If you have gold, you can max any profession in an afternoon.
In fact, most players don't care about crafting as such. If you go to the forums, crafting choice is boiled down to which 2 professional will give the biggest DPS boost (or tanking/healing boost depending on ur class/spec) because of its perks. What can be created is somewhat irrelevant.
Yeah and I wasn't by any means in sugesting that it was a crafting game. What I was mearly stating is that WoW (like 90%) of other games (AKA MMO's) don't really consentrate on the crafting aspect that much, and if they did I think it would become more of a play style. But as is, there is nothing to build that on.
I can't say "Wow I really like playing this game because i'm a crafter" there is just nothing there...
But as for Ryzom... it just seems like it would be a dream come true to a lot of people. Maybe most of these threads are just nostalgia speaking, or people being in love with an idea but actually disliking in when it's in action.
My problem with Ryzom, is that is you can't really explore the world. The moment you abandon a zone, you are killed by a high level monster. So maybe almost everything else is sandbox, but the combat is linear, you have to have level X +1 to kill monsters of level X. I don't even hate that, but it stop all my sandboxing.
I get the feeling that happens in almost every game. It's not like you could wander around and expect to stand toe-to-toe with the strongest monsters alone. But you can explore the world just fine, you just need to be careful. I've even read posts of people looking back on trying to traverse zones in EQ at lower levels, being killed by monsters if they weren't careful. But they talked of it in a positive light. Like I said before, it may just be nostalgia taking.
Remember, if you all want games with complex crafting and sandbox gameplay, words mean nothing. Money talks, and it's telling developers to stay away.
Ryzom has good crafting. I've just created a new account to try it for free to check out the state of the game currently. The newbie area is empty. Literally! Well, I was there briefly. But no one is playing Ryzom. So the above poster might be right. Ryzom is also a sandbox, as players keep asking for. If players want crafting and sandbox why is Ryzom empty?
just a quick check for myself i counted 15
so empty - no
are you full of shit - yes
except for that part about Ryzom having good crafting - definitely
15 players? Well done. That's in a one English server game. I've been trying out the newbie areas in Ryzom. It is dead. Completely dead. If you try to tell me Ryzom is a popular game you're deluded. The fact is Ryzom is one of a few sandbox games with good crafting and it is one of the least popular MMO games. Devs would be very unwise to take notice of what the vocal players say on here. Making another WoW clone would get you more players, as Ryzom shows. That's why running Ryzom has become an altruistic venture. Games companies must look at the example of Ryzom and think, that's not the way to go. My guess is Ryzom will shut down again in the not too distant future, unless the company currently running really do see it as a charity case.
Well, I don't know what to tell you. Ryzom launched 9/20/04 and at that time most people who were into haeavy crafting were probably playing SWG as the NGE wasn't upon us. Add to that Ryzom was made by a company that wasn't well known and you probably have alot of the reason it doesn't have the numbers.
As I keep saying, I'd like to see how a crafting system in a game that rivals the one in pre NGE SWG put into a game by one of the top tier companies (other than SOE or Funcom) would do. Ideally this would be Turbine, Mythic or Blizzard as they, in my mind, aren't as bad as the first two I mention. Or by 38 Studios because I know that those guys, while not well known as they are making their first MMO, can still generate that "top tier" MMO company money to produce a game.
I can understand if you, and others, don't care to play a sandboxish game with a deep crafting system. But there are plenty of people, more than enough for a company to make a profit, who are. The industry only has one game like that, as you say, that is Ryzom. A 4-5 year old MMO. The industry has has tons of the themepark games that I'm guessing you like to play. A little diversity wouldn't hurt and having just one top tier company make such a game isn't too much to ask.
Turbine all ready did. So did SOE.
Also, Ryzom has been shut down 3 times now.
No, sorry. Course these are all opinions so we'll probably never agree, which is par for the course.
Well, I'll give you Turbine, and Asheron's call is still going. I can't connect to the game b/c of it's network code, however. And while enjoyable, the crafting system wasn't as detailed as SWG (pre NGE). An updated version of AC is sorely needed, in my view.
SOE...Yeah, with pre-NGE. But, that company has so ruined that game and its reputation that I don't really recognize them in the MMO space anymore. Irrelevant is the word that comes to mind. They did, however, give a good lesson of what not to do with an active game, however.
As for Ryzom, I honestly haven't ever really looked at the game until today. *shrug*. Guess they didn't have the PR money that some of the top tier companies had to get the word out about the game. Not that I would have been playing it at it's launch. I was too busy with SWG (pre nge) at the time.
I was just pointing out, that AAA developers have already done this. Ryzom is also the first MMO to come with a user editor (that CoH/V recently added). The fact that the NGE happened, kinda shows the point, that they are not popular.
There are TON of Sandbox MMOs out there. Ryzom, Wurm Online, A tale in the desert..To name a few.
Ok, here's were I'll give the "um...no", lol. The fact that the NGE happened doesn't show they aren't popular. It shows how incompetent SOE/LA was at thinking they could change an already launched game into something that is like WoW to try and capture a subscriber base akin to WoW's.
EvE online, while space based, has many of those features I talk about and it continues to grow. And there may be a ton of sandbox (though, my definition of "ton" seems to differ from yours) out there, but none from AAA companies. though, I must admit, I could easily go along with the point that CCP is now in that league. Either way, a AAA produced game is certainly distinguishable from an Indy game. And it's that distinction, that production value from having more money to put into it, is what I'd like to see.
Again, every single AAA developer is making themepark and having one give a sandbox-ish crafting game a go wouldn't hurt. It's provide more variety.
There are 200K-300K people around the world who would play such a game. In that vein, a sandbox-ish crafting game like UO put out by a AAA developer today would be just as popular as the theme-park games being put out left and right today. Probably more popular than some.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
But as for Ryzom... it just seems like it would be a dream come true to a lot of people. Maybe most of these threads are just nostalgia speaking, or people being in love with an idea but actually disliking in when it's in action.
My problem with Ryzom, is that is you can't really explore the world. The moment you abandon a zone, you are killed by a high level monster. So maybe almost everything else is sandbox, but the combat is linear, you have to have level X +1 to kill monsters of level X. I don't even hate that, but it stop all my sandboxing.
more misconceptions about the game - - - you can explore the length and breadth of your races region from day one - you just might have to sneek and learn where certain creatures hang out or where they migrate to - sounds like fun doesn't it - no you can't go sauntering down the middle of the road (not a good idea anywhere, the creatures seem to know what roads are used for) if you haven't trained to deal with what you will find away from the central towns
another point is that it seems most "hardcore" mmo players claim they want group oriented games - well here you go - in a group you can not only explore your own races region with relative ease but trek to all the others too - lots of interesting sights to see
Repairing items is a money sink. Replacing items is a time and money sink.
How often Did Aragorn have to repair Narsil? Once. How often did he have it break? Never. How many times had it been broken before? Once (and only because it hit Sauron...)...
Players like shinies, because it is cool and you stand out, etc...
If you want to play "mindless-clone" games, be my guest. They're wildly popular in Asia, where the Bots run free.
SWG's early crafting was junk anyways. A few tiny and I mean TINY stat modifiers for using better materials... that's not that impressive. And, of course, those "rare" resources led to abuse. I had a friend who had 6 accounts, and borrowed three others to totally dominate weaponsmithing on his server. It was great for him, he paid his rent and his college tuition with the RMT's he made. It sucked for every other person who wanted to be a weaponsmith on his server.
EQ1 had tedious and mind numbingly boring crafting, but it was "hard", and so few people did it, and so if you ever needed a tailor to make an item for you at 3AM.... forget about it.
Kinda humors me, people want to "Stand out" in crafting, yet decry the desire for other players to "Stand out" with their shinies... If the crafter can make the best items, then everyone will have the best items. And everyone becomes equal and boring again... Hence why crafters usually can't make the best items (or at least, they have to have some material that is insanely hard to get via combat (raid drops, etc)).
Repairing items is a money sink. Replacing items is a time and money sink. How often Did Aragorn have to repair Narsil? Once. How often did he have it break? Never. How many times had it been broken before? Once (and only because it hit Sauron...)... Players like shinies, because it is cool and you stand out, etc... If you want to play "mindless-clone" games, be my guest. They're wildly popular in Asia, where the Bots run free. SWG's early crafting was junk anyways. A few tiny and I mean TINY stat modifiers for using better materials... that's not that impressive. And, of course, those "rare" resources led to abuse. I had a friend who had 6 accounts, and borrowed three others to totally dominate weaponsmithing on his server. It was great for him, he paid his rent and his college tuition with the RMT's he made. It sucked for every other person who wanted to be a weaponsmith on his server. EQ1 had tedious and mind numbingly boring crafting, but it was "hard", and so few people did it, and so if you ever needed a tailor to make an item for you at 3AM.... forget about it. Kinda humors me, people want to "Stand out" in crafting, yet decry the desire for other players to "Stand out" with their shinies... If the crafter can make the best items, then everyone will have the best items. And everyone becomes equal and boring again... Hence why crafters usually can't make the best items (or at least, they have to have some material that is insanely hard to get via combat (raid drops, etc)).
After Ultima Online I was big into crafting... tho in SWG I only did Bio Engineering (enjoyed it). These days I don't craft at all and will only be a resource seller... (where the money was in SWG as well.... tho no one ever seemed to dominate the crafting scene on Starsider /shrug).
I think developers need to make a choice in their systems. If you honestly want to build your game around raiding and obtaining loot that way... or a point system for pvp. Then perhaps the only crafting they should have is for potions and other "use" systems... enchanting gear etc
I really don't see the point of putting development time into weapon/armor smiths.. if no one would ever really want to use their items.
You have to understand in UO I always had every crafting skill at cap. Well I will clarify that to the early years.. before power scrolls and some of the other crafts were added. This being when a 7x GM Mule had all the crafts. With all the accounts I sold/traded or started new.. I always had the crafter... I always ran a store and kept my vendor stocked (got to be a full time job almost at one point).
The real problem is the majority of development has been one way. This is a way that doesn't really support complex crafting. Dropping the standard way the majority of the market has gotten used to things being... would be like making EQ3 as a skill based game... EQ1 players would be like WTF?!?!?
The market is so big compared to what is used to be... that the majority of players in the current market have never seen this type of game. They are only used to the big shiney weapon they never lose...
(so yes I agree with you one way or another).
I also even tho I was someone that liked consistent market sales... after game development changed and market prices in general looked like they were set by "outside sources with a website link to afford the item"... I no longer like the item durability arguement.
Then again having to replace (repair makes sense) but replacing a weapon on a consistent basis?
The longest I have ever played a MMO (consecutive months) was 1997-2002 in UO .. so more or less 5 years.
I have a sword on my wall that is 400'ish years old... it could still be used as well as when it was made... and it was most certainly used longer than 5 years....
So its hard to say I feel immersed in the reality of my weapons breaking.... and I don't even need to go to the example you used.
There are certainly plenty of swords and other weapons that have managed to survive from all parts of the world... and some of them are older than my wall decoration...
I'd be happy to have a player world that worked for crafters like UO did... but you have to design the entire system to work. This means I can create the weapons at low cost so I can sell them at low cost... so that replacing them is not a big deal.
If you don't design it that way.. market prices will be high etc (rehash of all that is wrong blah blah).
*edit* As to the OP... developers seem to be opposed to ANY complex system.. not just crafting. If you really look at the current mode of development... its all about linear story telling. They claim they give you many options etc but its all about pushing you from A to B to C... I call it EZMode game development.
It might be due to cost... it could be that people "with a clue" don't want to work for what the company can afford. It most certainly has to do with an influx of devs will will post on official forums that YOU the customer are the problem (and have no clue how to create).
No one seems to have the same global overview of how all these systems mesh together... as they did at the start.
This isn't just directed at AoC/ToR (the story comment) its about the trend in the industry.. in general is to create a more linear game with the illusion that its not linear... and the reason is to cut down on resources and complexity... which is why I term it EZMode Development.
Comments
Why is it sad? The majority of people are getting what they want. You can't please everyone in the world.
just a quick check for myself i counted 15
so empty - no
are you full of shit - yes
except for that part about Ryzom having good crafting - definitely
15 players? Well done. That's in a one English server game. I've been trying out the newbie areas in Ryzom. It is dead. Completely dead. If you try to tell me Ryzom is a popular game you're deluded. The fact is Ryzom is one of a few sandbox games with good crafting and it is one of the least popular MMO games. Devs would be very unwise to take notice of what the vocal players say on here. Making another WoW clone would get you more players, as Ryzom shows. That's why running Ryzom has become an altruistic venture. Games companies must look at the example of Ryzom and think, that's not the way to go. My guess is Ryzom will shut down again in the not too distant future, unless the company currently running really do see it as a charity case.
Well, I don't know what to tell you. Ryzom launched 9/20/04 and at that time most people who were into haeavy crafting were probably playing SWG as the NGE wasn't upon us. Add to that Ryzom was made by a company that wasn't well known and you probably have alot of the reason it doesn't have the numbers.
As I keep saying, I'd like to see how a crafting system in a game that rivals the one in pre NGE SWG put into a game by one of the top tier companies (other than SOE or Funcom) would do. Ideally this would be Turbine, Mythic or Blizzard as they, in my mind, aren't as bad as the first two I mention. Or by 38 Studios because I know that those guys, while not well known as they are making their first MMO, can still generate that "top tier" MMO company money to produce a game.
I can understand if you, and others, don't care to play a sandboxish game with a deep crafting system. But there are plenty of people, more than enough for a company to make a profit, who are. The industry only has one game like that, as you say, that is Ryzom. A 4-5 year old MMO. The industry has has tons of the themepark games that I'm guessing you like to play. A little diversity wouldn't hurt and having just one top tier company make such a game isn't too much to ask.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
The norm now days is WoW, clear and simple. I've seen 15 millions games that are like WoW (No not clones...just "like")
Anyways and in wow you play for a year and you've mastered teh crafting, and if you are on alot then you have mastered ALL of the crafting.
I have a friend who has been playing a year and (like a month) on WoW, he has 3 lvl 80's and at least 4 crafting skills maxed. Its just dumb, they make there money in WoW doing "dailies" tell me how that is better then crafting...point is its not.
And thats the main reson I left wow. I love crafting, and I hated spending a month on a skill getting it maxed out and then competing with "serously" 15-25 other players with the same items on the AH.
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And i've actually got a really easy fix to the whole "rmt" balence thing. and i'll post it up here when I get it all worded the way I want.
Please check out my channel. I do gaming reviews, gaming related reviews & lets plays. Thanks!
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Well, I don't know what to tell you. Ryzom launched 9/20/04 and at that time most people who were into haeavy crafting were probably playing SWG as the NGE wasn't upon us. Add to that Ryzom was made by a company that wasn't well known and you probably have alot of the reason it doesn't have the numbers.
As I keep saying, I'd like to see how a crafting system in a game that rivals the one in pre NGE SWG put into a game by one of the top tier companies (other than SOE or Funcom) would do. Ideally this would be Turbine, Mythic or Blizzard as they, in my mind, aren't as bad as the first two I mention. Or by 38 Studios because I know that those guys, while not well known as they are making their first MMO, can still generate that "top tier" MMO company money to produce a game.
I can understand if you, and others, don't care to play a sandboxish game with a deep crafting system. But there are plenty of people, more than enough for a company to make a profit, who are. The industry only has one game like that, as you say, that is Ryzom. A 4-5 year old MMO. The industry has has tons of the themepark games that I'm guessing you like to play. A little diversity wouldn't hurt and having just one top tier company make such a game isn't too much to ask.
No, I like Ryzom. But it's not getting the players. It's a sandbox game and yet where are all these sandbox fans? Not playing Ryzom. Now you're telling me it has to be made by Blizzard or something?
Basically I think a lot of people on MMORPG are full of shit. They talk about sandbox games but don't play them when they're there! And that is not the developer's fault. Why would one top tier company make a game like Ryzom when it's one of the least popular MMOs around. And I repeat, I like Ryzom. I'm not criticising the game itself. I doubt it has much future though, unfortunately.
just a quick check for myself i counted 15
so empty - no
are you full of shit - yes
except for that part about Ryzom having good crafting - definitely
15 players? Well done. That's in a one English server game. I've been trying out the newbie areas in Ryzom. It is dead. Completely dead. If you try to tell me Ryzom is a popular game you're deluded. The fact is Ryzom is one of a few sandbox games with good crafting and it is one of the least popular MMO games. Devs would be very unwise to take notice of what the vocal players say on here. Making another WoW clone would get you more players, as Ryzom shows. That's why running Ryzom has become an altruistic venture. Games companies must look at the example of Ryzom and think, that's not the way to go. My guess is Ryzom will shut down again in the not too distant future, unless the company currently running really do see it as a charity case.
Well, I don't know what to tell you. Ryzom launched 9/20/04 and at that time most people who were into haeavy crafting were probably playing SWG as the NGE wasn't upon us. Add to that Ryzom was made by a company that wasn't well known and you probably have alot of the reason it doesn't have the numbers.
As I keep saying, I'd like to see how a crafting system in a game that rivals the one in pre NGE SWG put into a game by one of the top tier companies (other than SOE or Funcom) would do. Ideally this would be Turbine, Mythic or Blizzard as they, in my mind, aren't as bad as the first two I mention. Or by 38 Studios because I know that those guys, while not well known as they are making their first MMO, can still generate that "top tier" MMO company money to produce a game.
I can understand if you, and others, don't care to play a sandboxish game with a deep crafting system. But there are plenty of people, more than enough for a company to make a profit, who are. The industry only has one game like that, as you say, that is Ryzom. A 4-5 year old MMO. The industry has has tons of the themepark games that I'm guessing you like to play. A little diversity wouldn't hurt and having just one top tier company make such a game isn't too much to ask.
Turbine all ready did. So did SOE.
Also, Ryzom has been shut down 3 times now.
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"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
Well, I don't know what to tell you. Ryzom launched 9/20/04 and at that time most people who were into haeavy crafting were probably playing SWG as the NGE wasn't upon us. Add to that Ryzom was made by a company that wasn't well known and you probably have alot of the reason it doesn't have the numbers.
As I keep saying, I'd like to see how a crafting system in a game that rivals the one in pre NGE SWG put into a game by one of the top tier companies (other than SOE or Funcom) would do. Ideally this would be Turbine, Mythic or Blizzard as they, in my mind, aren't as bad as the first two I mention. Or by 38 Studios because I know that those guys, while not well known as they are making their first MMO, can still generate that "top tier" MMO company money to produce a game.
I can understand if you, and others, don't care to play a sandboxish game with a deep crafting system. But there are plenty of people, more than enough for a company to make a profit, who are. The industry only has one game like that, as you say, that is Ryzom. A 4-5 year old MMO. The industry has has tons of the themepark games that I'm guessing you like to play. A little diversity wouldn't hurt and having just one top tier company make such a game isn't too much to ask.
No, I like Ryzom. But it's not getting the players. It's a sandbox game and yet where are all these sandbox fans? Not playing Ryzom. Now you're telling me it has to be made by Blizzard or something?
Basically I think a lot of people on MMORPG are full of shit. They talk about sandbox games but don't play them when they're there! And that is not the developer's fault. Why would one top tier company make a game like Ryzom when it's one of the least popular MMOs around. And I repeat, I like Ryzom. I'm not criticising the game itself. I doubt it has much future though, unfortunately.
Then there just has to be something else about Ryzom that people just don't like.
And I am saying that yes, I'd like to see a sandbox-ish detailed crafting game put out by one of the top tier companies (in no particular order; Blizzard, Turbine, Mythic) that have the money on had to make it a more polished product at launch than most Indy companies can. And while you are focusing on the view of companies looking at Ryzom, I'll go back to SWG (pre NGE) and UO. At their times they had a more than profitable number of subscribers. So, there, in my view, at least two examples of that if done well a sandbox-ish crafting MMO can make a company a profit.
Just because one was made in 2004 doesn't mean more can't be made. I mean, if we go down that route, companies should never make a themepark MMO again because Tabula Rasa and Matrix Online were closed down. Being closed down is certainly worse than have a low population, lol!
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
just a quick check for myself i counted 15
so empty - no
are you full of shit - yes
except for that part about Ryzom having good crafting - definitely
15 players? Well done. That's in a one English server game. I've been trying out the newbie areas in Ryzom. It is dead. Completely dead. If you try to tell me Ryzom is a popular game you're deluded. The fact is Ryzom is one of a few sandbox games with good crafting and it is one of the least popular MMO games. Devs would be very unwise to take notice of what the vocal players say on here. Making another WoW clone would get you more players, as Ryzom shows. That's why running Ryzom has become an altruistic venture. Games companies must look at the example of Ryzom and think, that's not the way to go. My guess is Ryzom will shut down again in the not too distant future, unless the company currently running really do see it as a charity case.
Well, I don't know what to tell you. Ryzom launched 9/20/04 and at that time most people who were into haeavy crafting were probably playing SWG as the NGE wasn't upon us. Add to that Ryzom was made by a company that wasn't well known and you probably have alot of the reason it doesn't have the numbers.
As I keep saying, I'd like to see how a crafting system in a game that rivals the one in pre NGE SWG put into a game by one of the top tier companies (other than SOE or Funcom) would do. Ideally this would be Turbine, Mythic or Blizzard as they, in my mind, aren't as bad as the first two I mention. Or by 38 Studios because I know that those guys, while not well known as they are making their first MMO, can still generate that "top tier" MMO company money to produce a game.
I can understand if you, and others, don't care to play a sandboxish game with a deep crafting system. But there are plenty of people, more than enough for a company to make a profit, who are. The industry only has one game like that, as you say, that is Ryzom. A 4-5 year old MMO. The industry has has tons of the themepark games that I'm guessing you like to play. A little diversity wouldn't hurt and having just one top tier company make such a game isn't too much to ask.
Turbine all ready did. So did SOE.
Also, Ryzom has been shut down 3 times now.
No, sorry. Course these are all opinions so we'll probably never agree, which is par for the course.
Well, I'll give you Turbine, and Asheron's call is still going. I can't connect to the game b/c of it's network code, however. And while enjoyable, the crafting system wasn't as detailed as SWG (pre NGE). An updated version of AC is sorely needed, in my view.
SOE...Yeah, with pre-NGE. But, that company has so ruined that game and its reputation that I don't really recognize them in the MMO space anymore. Irrelevant is the word that comes to mind. They did, however, give a good lesson of what not to do with an active game, however.
As for Ryzom, I honestly haven't ever really looked at the game until today. *shrug*. Guess they didn't have the PR money that some of the top tier companies had to get the word out about the game. Not that I would have been playing it at it's launch. I was too busy with SWG (pre nge) at the time.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
just a quick check for myself i counted 15
so empty - no
are you full of shit - yes
except for that part about Ryzom having good crafting - definitely
15 players? Well done. That's in a one English server game. I've been trying out the newbie areas in Ryzom. It is dead. Completely dead. If you try to tell me Ryzom is a popular game you're deluded. The fact is Ryzom is one of a few sandbox games with good crafting and it is one of the least popular MMO games. Devs would be very unwise to take notice of what the vocal players say on here. Making another WoW clone would get you more players, as Ryzom shows. That's why running Ryzom has become an altruistic venture. Games companies must look at the example of Ryzom and think, that's not the way to go. My guess is Ryzom will shut down again in the not too distant future, unless the company currently running really do see it as a charity case.
Well, I don't know what to tell you. Ryzom launched 9/20/04 and at that time most people who were into haeavy crafting were probably playing SWG as the NGE wasn't upon us. Add to that Ryzom was made by a company that wasn't well known and you probably have alot of the reason it doesn't have the numbers.
As I keep saying, I'd like to see how a crafting system in a game that rivals the one in pre NGE SWG put into a game by one of the top tier companies (other than SOE or Funcom) would do. Ideally this would be Turbine, Mythic or Blizzard as they, in my mind, aren't as bad as the first two I mention. Or by 38 Studios because I know that those guys, while not well known as they are making their first MMO, can still generate that "top tier" MMO company money to produce a game.
I can understand if you, and others, don't care to play a sandboxish game with a deep crafting system. But there are plenty of people, more than enough for a company to make a profit, who are. The industry only has one game like that, as you say, that is Ryzom. A 4-5 year old MMO. The industry has has tons of the themepark games that I'm guessing you like to play. A little diversity wouldn't hurt and having just one top tier company make such a game isn't too much to ask.
Turbine all ready did. So did SOE.
Also, Ryzom has been shut down 3 times now.
No, sorry. Course these are all opinions so we'll probably never agree, which is par for the course.
Well, I'll give you Turbine, and Asheron's call is still going. I can't connect to the game b/c of it's network code, however. And while enjoyable, the crafting system wasn't as detailed as SWG (pre NGE). An updated version of AC is sorely needed, in my view.
SOE...Yeah, with pre-NGE. But, that company has so ruined that game and its reputation that I don't really recognize them in the MMO space anymore. Irrelevant is the word that comes to mind. They did, however, give a good lesson of what not to do with an active game, however.
As for Ryzom, I honestly haven't ever really looked at the game until today. *shrug*. Guess they didn't have the PR money that some of the top tier companies had to get the word out about the game. Not that I would have been playing it at it's launch. I was too busy with SWG (pre nge) at the time.
I was just pointing out, that AAA developers have already done this. Ryzom is also the first MMO to come with a user editor (that CoH/V recently added). The fact that the NGE happened, kinda shows the point, that they are not popular.
There are TON of Sandbox MMOs out there. Ryzom, Wurm Online, A tale in the desert..To name a few.
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"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
The only game where crafting has been successfully implemented is EVE Online. In every other game, crafting is periphery. The reason that it works in EVE is because every item (more or less) that's ever used in the game is crafted.
The idea of having crafted weapons alongside weapons that drop generally doesn't work in the long run, since they're mutually exclusive. E.g., in WoW there will always be a better drop than the best item anyone can craft. Blizzard has said this, and it's intended to help keep raid progression interesting. That's all well and good, but you have to accept that this negatively impacts the crafting aspect of the game, and crafted items are generally used only as interim items while you're waiting for something better to drop.
But the interesting thing about EVE is that, essentially, the entire economy revolves around crafting. ISK is usually (i.e., over 95% of the time) used to buy crafting materials from other players so that you may craft an item, or it's used to buy an item that someone else has crafted. Some players kill enemies to profit from salvage (used to craft rigs); some players profit by harvesting natural resources; some players profit by transporting crafted items to places with higher demands for those items; some players profit by discovering blueprints (via research) and selling copies; and lastly, some people profit by directly crafting items (using blueprints, natural resources, and salvage). Crafting, as well as everything else in EVE, requires both skill and time, and due to the freedom of the market, how much money you make is directly proportional to how much skill you have, and how much time you're willing to spend.
This all works in EVE because the game is designed around it. EVE is interesting because progress is measured by your total assets, and since scarcity is involved, other players are in direct opposition to your acquisition of wealth which naturally leads to alliances and PVP combat. In WoW, on the other hand, the best items are dropped from NPCs. This makes both the market and crafting non-essential, and it also means there's no scarcity of good items.
So devs are opposed to complex crafting because up until now, there hasn't been a good way to create an incentive for group PVE other than item drops. As soon as they can create a new incentive (perhaps NPCs only drop resources?), then crafting could become a very interesting part of your standard mmo.
WOW is never designed to be a crafting game and it is obviously focused on combat. If you have gold, you can max any profession in an afternoon.
In fact, most players don't care about crafting as such. If you go to the forums, crafting choice is boiled down to which 2 professional will give the biggest DPS boost (or tanking/healing boost depending on ur class/spec) because of its perks. What can be created is somewhat irrelevant.
That's another thing... I play Ryzom, and I used to play a whole lot of Wurm Online. Both of them are sandbox driven games that sound a lot like what people on MMORPG.com say they'd play in a heartbeat. Now, I can understand Wurm Online's low population completely. It's not exactly the most beautiful game to look at, and the combat is... well, I tried to avoid dealing with it. Not to mention how incredibly difficult it can get.
But as for Ryzom... it just seems like it would be a dream come true to a lot of people. Maybe most of these threads are just nostalgia speaking, or people being in love with an idea but actually disliking in when it's in action.
But as for Ryzom... it just seems like it would be a dream come true to a lot of people. Maybe most of these threads are just nostalgia speaking, or people being in love with an idea but actually disliking in when it's in action.
My problem with Ryzom, is that is you can't really explore the world. The moment you abandon a zone, you are killed by a high level monster. So maybe almost everything else is sandbox, but the combat is linear, you have to have level X +1 to kill monsters of level X. I don't even hate that, but it stop all my sandboxing.
WOW is never designed to be a crafting game and it is obviously focused on combat. If you have gold, you can max any profession in an afternoon.
In fact, most players don't care about crafting as such. If you go to the forums, crafting choice is boiled down to which 2 professional will give the biggest DPS boost (or tanking/healing boost depending on ur class/spec) because of its perks. What can be created is somewhat irrelevant.
Yeah and I wasn't by any means in sugesting that it was a crafting game. What I was mearly stating is that WoW (like 90%) of other games (AKA MMO's) don't really consentrate on the crafting aspect that much, and if they did I think it would become more of a play style. But as is, there is nothing to build that on.
I can't say "Wow I really like playing this game because i'm a crafter" there is just nothing there...
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But as for Ryzom... it just seems like it would be a dream come true to a lot of people. Maybe most of these threads are just nostalgia speaking, or people being in love with an idea but actually disliking in when it's in action.
My problem with Ryzom, is that is you can't really explore the world. The moment you abandon a zone, you are killed by a high level monster. So maybe almost everything else is sandbox, but the combat is linear, you have to have level X +1 to kill monsters of level X. I don't even hate that, but it stop all my sandboxing.
I get the feeling that happens in almost every game. It's not like you could wander around and expect to stand toe-to-toe with the strongest monsters alone. But you can explore the world just fine, you just need to be careful. I've even read posts of people looking back on trying to traverse zones in EQ at lower levels, being killed by monsters if they weren't careful. But they talked of it in a positive light. Like I said before, it may just be nostalgia taking.
Remember, if you all want games with complex crafting and sandbox gameplay, words mean nothing. Money talks, and it's telling developers to stay away.
just a quick check for myself i counted 15
so empty - no
are you full of shit - yes
except for that part about Ryzom having good crafting - definitely
15 players? Well done. That's in a one English server game. I've been trying out the newbie areas in Ryzom. It is dead. Completely dead. If you try to tell me Ryzom is a popular game you're deluded. The fact is Ryzom is one of a few sandbox games with good crafting and it is one of the least popular MMO games. Devs would be very unwise to take notice of what the vocal players say on here. Making another WoW clone would get you more players, as Ryzom shows. That's why running Ryzom has become an altruistic venture. Games companies must look at the example of Ryzom and think, that's not the way to go. My guess is Ryzom will shut down again in the not too distant future, unless the company currently running really do see it as a charity case.
Well, I don't know what to tell you. Ryzom launched 9/20/04 and at that time most people who were into haeavy crafting were probably playing SWG as the NGE wasn't upon us. Add to that Ryzom was made by a company that wasn't well known and you probably have alot of the reason it doesn't have the numbers.
As I keep saying, I'd like to see how a crafting system in a game that rivals the one in pre NGE SWG put into a game by one of the top tier companies (other than SOE or Funcom) would do. Ideally this would be Turbine, Mythic or Blizzard as they, in my mind, aren't as bad as the first two I mention. Or by 38 Studios because I know that those guys, while not well known as they are making their first MMO, can still generate that "top tier" MMO company money to produce a game.
I can understand if you, and others, don't care to play a sandboxish game with a deep crafting system. But there are plenty of people, more than enough for a company to make a profit, who are. The industry only has one game like that, as you say, that is Ryzom. A 4-5 year old MMO. The industry has has tons of the themepark games that I'm guessing you like to play. A little diversity wouldn't hurt and having just one top tier company make such a game isn't too much to ask.
Turbine all ready did. So did SOE.
Also, Ryzom has been shut down 3 times now.
No, sorry. Course these are all opinions so we'll probably never agree, which is par for the course.
Well, I'll give you Turbine, and Asheron's call is still going. I can't connect to the game b/c of it's network code, however. And while enjoyable, the crafting system wasn't as detailed as SWG (pre NGE). An updated version of AC is sorely needed, in my view.
SOE...Yeah, with pre-NGE. But, that company has so ruined that game and its reputation that I don't really recognize them in the MMO space anymore. Irrelevant is the word that comes to mind. They did, however, give a good lesson of what not to do with an active game, however.
As for Ryzom, I honestly haven't ever really looked at the game until today. *shrug*. Guess they didn't have the PR money that some of the top tier companies had to get the word out about the game. Not that I would have been playing it at it's launch. I was too busy with SWG (pre nge) at the time.
I was just pointing out, that AAA developers have already done this. Ryzom is also the first MMO to come with a user editor (that CoH/V recently added). The fact that the NGE happened, kinda shows the point, that they are not popular.
There are TON of Sandbox MMOs out there. Ryzom, Wurm Online, A tale in the desert..To name a few.
Ok, here's were I'll give the "um...no", lol. The fact that the NGE happened doesn't show they aren't popular. It shows how incompetent SOE/LA was at thinking they could change an already launched game into something that is like WoW to try and capture a subscriber base akin to WoW's.
EvE online, while space based, has many of those features I talk about and it continues to grow. And there may be a ton of sandbox (though, my definition of "ton" seems to differ from yours) out there, but none from AAA companies. though, I must admit, I could easily go along with the point that CCP is now in that league. Either way, a AAA produced game is certainly distinguishable from an Indy game. And it's that distinction, that production value from having more money to put into it, is what I'd like to see.
Again, every single AAA developer is making themepark and having one give a sandbox-ish crafting game a go wouldn't hurt. It's provide more variety.
There are 200K-300K people around the world who would play such a game. In that vein, a sandbox-ish crafting game like UO put out by a AAA developer today would be just as popular as the theme-park games being put out left and right today. Probably more popular than some.
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But as for Ryzom... it just seems like it would be a dream come true to a lot of people. Maybe most of these threads are just nostalgia speaking, or people being in love with an idea but actually disliking in when it's in action.
My problem with Ryzom, is that is you can't really explore the world. The moment you abandon a zone, you are killed by a high level monster. So maybe almost everything else is sandbox, but the combat is linear, you have to have level X +1 to kill monsters of level X. I don't even hate that, but it stop all my sandboxing.
more misconceptions about the game - - - you can explore the length and breadth of your races region from day one - you just might have to sneek and learn where certain creatures hang out or where they migrate to - sounds like fun doesn't it
- no you can't go sauntering down the middle of the road (not a good idea anywhere, the creatures seem to know what roads are used for) if you haven't trained to deal with what you will find away from the central towns
another point is that it seems most "hardcore" mmo players claim they want group oriented games - well here you go - in a group you can not only explore your own races region with relative ease but trek to all the others too - lots of interesting sights to see
Repairing items is a money sink. Replacing items is a time and money sink.
How often Did Aragorn have to repair Narsil? Once. How often did he have it break? Never. How many times had it been broken before? Once (and only because it hit Sauron...)...
Players like shinies, because it is cool and you stand out, etc...
If you want to play "mindless-clone" games, be my guest. They're wildly popular in Asia, where the Bots run free.
SWG's early crafting was junk anyways. A few tiny and I mean TINY stat modifiers for using better materials... that's not that impressive. And, of course, those "rare" resources led to abuse. I had a friend who had 6 accounts, and borrowed three others to totally dominate weaponsmithing on his server. It was great for him, he paid his rent and his college tuition with the RMT's he made. It sucked for every other person who wanted to be a weaponsmith on his server.
EQ1 had tedious and mind numbingly boring crafting, but it was "hard", and so few people did it, and so if you ever needed a tailor to make an item for you at 3AM.... forget about it.
Kinda humors me, people want to "Stand out" in crafting, yet decry the desire for other players to "Stand out" with their shinies... If the crafter can make the best items, then everyone will have the best items. And everyone becomes equal and boring again... Hence why crafters usually can't make the best items (or at least, they have to have some material that is insanely hard to get via combat (raid drops, etc)).
After Ultima Online I was big into crafting... tho in SWG I only did Bio Engineering (enjoyed it). These days I don't craft at all and will only be a resource seller... (where the money was in SWG as well.... tho no one ever seemed to dominate the crafting scene on Starsider /shrug).
I think developers need to make a choice in their systems. If you honestly want to build your game around raiding and obtaining loot that way... or a point system for pvp. Then perhaps the only crafting they should have is for potions and other "use" systems... enchanting gear etc
I really don't see the point of putting development time into weapon/armor smiths.. if no one would ever really want to use their items.
You have to understand in UO I always had every crafting skill at cap. Well I will clarify that to the early years.. before power scrolls and some of the other crafts were added. This being when a 7x GM Mule had all the crafts. With all the accounts I sold/traded or started new.. I always had the crafter... I always ran a store and kept my vendor stocked (got to be a full time job almost at one point).
The real problem is the majority of development has been one way. This is a way that doesn't really support complex crafting. Dropping the standard way the majority of the market has gotten used to things being... would be like making EQ3 as a skill based game... EQ1 players would be like WTF?!?!?
The market is so big compared to what is used to be... that the majority of players in the current market have never seen this type of game. They are only used to the big shiney weapon they never lose...
(so yes I agree with you one way or another).
I also even tho I was someone that liked consistent market sales... after game development changed and market prices in general looked like they were set by "outside sources with a website link to afford the item"... I no longer like the item durability arguement.
Then again having to replace (repair makes sense) but replacing a weapon on a consistent basis?
The longest I have ever played a MMO (consecutive months) was 1997-2002 in UO .. so more or less 5 years.
I have a sword on my wall that is 400'ish years old... it could still be used as well as when it was made... and it was most certainly used longer than 5 years....
So its hard to say I feel immersed in the reality of my weapons breaking.... and I don't even need to go to the example you used.
There are certainly plenty of swords and other weapons that have managed to survive from all parts of the world... and some of them are older than my wall decoration...
I'd be happy to have a player world that worked for crafters like UO did... but you have to design the entire system to work. This means I can create the weapons at low cost so I can sell them at low cost... so that replacing them is not a big deal.
If you don't design it that way.. market prices will be high etc (rehash of all that is wrong blah blah).
*edit* As to the OP... developers seem to be opposed to ANY complex system.. not just crafting. If you really look at the current mode of development... its all about linear story telling. They claim they give you many options etc but its all about pushing you from A to B to C... I call it EZMode game development.
It might be due to cost... it could be that people "with a clue" don't want to work for what the company can afford. It most certainly has to do with an influx of devs will will post on official forums that YOU the customer are the problem (and have no clue how to create).
No one seems to have the same global overview of how all these systems mesh together... as they did at the start.
This isn't just directed at AoC/ToR (the story comment) its about the trend in the industry.. in general is to create a more linear game with the illusion that its not linear... and the reason is to cut down on resources and complexity... which is why I term it EZMode Development.