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Why do liberals act like healthcare is different than regular goods/services?
Netzoko
Member Posts: 1,271
Why has heathcare become regarded as a basic human right rather than a capitalistic service? How is it different than things like haircuts or oil change services? Its astonishing that people forget the basic economic concepts when it comes to healthcare. It's not a right, its an expensive service that not everyone can afford. If you can't afford a product, you don't buy it. Yet doctors and medicine don't follow that?
- Avg cost of an MRI: $2000
- Avg cost of heart bypass surgeory: $57,000
Now answer me this, why do liberals act like these services/products do not follow the basic rules of trade? Why should these industry items be considered "free?" The reason why socialzed medicine won't work is because we, as a country, cannot afford it. Not with taxes either.
The point is that medicine is a business.. a gigantic one at that. The prices of goods and services within this sector are determined with supply/demand just like everything else in the US. I fail to understand how citizens can say to themselves, "Well I sure as hell can't afford this, so the government should buy it for me!"
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Comments
Because people don't NEED haircuts and oil change services.
"TO MICHAEL!"
When you or a loved one are on the hospital bed knowing that without treatment you will die after excruciating pain and you can still say these things with a straight face then we can have a discussion.
Until then I will just assume that
a) Neither you or a loved one needed a major surgery/treatment that you wouldn't be able to afford.
or
b) You or your family are very rich hence costs are irrelevant.
or
c) You just post a flame bait.
A friend is not him who provides support during your failures.A friend is the one that cheers you during your successes.
Because health care for over half a century has been considered a basic human right in our country?
The only oddity in any debate regarding health care would be a thought that health care isn't a basic human right. Our current debates are how to service that basic human right in a more inclusive and cost effective way. There's room for private industry alongside as with most things public.
Because if we don't get oil changes and hair cuts, we die.
You know, despite common right-wing belief, you can be a capitalist and still have human decency.
Just a thought.
It is actually YOUR side, not our side, that treats health care differently:
We (liberals) are trying to INCREASE the quality of care and DECREASE the cost of care and EXPAND accessibility in addition to coverage.
It is YOUR lobby groups, something YOU have zero connection or benefit from, that are fighting it.
I am not a "liberal" I believe healthcare should be available to all. It is our Hippocratic Oath that differntiates this service to mankind than your other regular services. It is our sworn oath to provide the best care to anyone who needs it, not "provide the best care to those who can pay me for it." Our job is to save lives not choose who gets to live and die. People need to allow doctors to do their jobs rather than give them more paperwork to do in order to save a life.
I strongly oppose Obamas healthcare plan as it allows for people to fall through the cracks and will result in more unneccessary deaths. I support the plan presented by the doctors of this nation who have already been treating the uninsured for decades. The doctors who don;t always get paid for their services, yet always makes sure everyone gets good treatment. THose are the people you should trust to make a healthcare plan, not some corrupt politician.
Something needs to change. You can buy a car cheaper than going to the hospital.
But even the democrats limited plan that only covered a select few was budgeted at 1.5 trillion. That money will not appear out of nowhere and the government's meddling in the loan business does not make me feel very optimistic.
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Doctor's health plan:
www.iadmd.org/DoctorsPlan/PlanBasics/tabid/59/Default.aspx
Read more about IADMD here:
The Doctor Is In: Non Socialized, No Tax Burden, Doctored up Universal Health Care Plan
www.fiercehealthcare.com/press-releases/doctor-non-socialized-no-tax-burden-doctored-universal-health-care-plan
Without looking too far and thinking too deeply, let me guess, the health care lobby does not want to (a) pay taxes and (b) still receive government subsidies?
I am a strange bird because I have sympathies for those not within my class. I know we live in a culture of 50 cents ("get rich or die trying" otherwise "be selfish and do everything you can to get rich quick scheme"), but I am discomforted and dishearted by the generosity of American people towards insurers, bankers, energy companies, corporate farmers, and defense contractors.
I am really worried that the "average Joe" or "little guy" or "regular person" is going literally going to be out of a job, out of a house, and out of spending power, out of health care because of their strange culture of take-away rights and bail-out the wealthy. Weird.
EDIT: I have literally spoken to "average Joes" or "little people" who think they are middle-class but confess to me that they, "work for their health care." They work so they do not lose their health care benefits for themselves and their families.
What happened to "little people" or "average Joes" in terms of this . . . bizarre give-up culture from a quality education to quality and affordable health care to a sound foreign policy to a tax system that is fair? It is weird to ME how "little people" or "average people" think. Somehow, and I do not know precisely when, "little people" or "average American people" have become very . . . anti-rights and anti-jobs and anti-housing. It is almost crazy as an observer to see this.
EDIT 2: I read a study recently in which American public/government school students rank in the bottom 30 (out of 35) in Math and Science. I am not sure what to tell YOU younger/older people anymore. These people not be equipped in a global world, but will certainly, as 50 cent said, "die trying to get rich." It is an embarrassment.
EDIT 3: extremely brief aside, I am in the process of obtaining a passport four another country which will allow me to work in four other countries with other benefits in associate countries. I know it is not nice to say this, but the American industry, just read an article in the Harvard Business Review today (June 2009), are losing more ownership control of their OWN industries than any other country in the WORLD. In an a global world, if you are not equipped (math, science, foreign languages), you will not be able to compete. It is HONESTLY that simple and uncomplicated. NY has been replaced by London, Frankfurt, and Shanghai as the financial capitals of the world. In previous experiences, the edge of American businessmen abroad was the value of the U.S. dollar. The U.S. dollar could buy foreign assets (land, labor, etc.) cheaply. TODAY, the reverse is true. TODAY, Americans are the bottom in Math and Science and health care.
Is anyone looking out for YOU? Are YOU looking out for YOURSELF?
I think everybody can agree something needs to change, and that the cost of healthcare & medicine should be a lot cheaper than they are right now.
But...but lots of people don't buy into the healthcare Obama is trying to push for, and they have very good reasons. It's worthy of debate, and this goes beyond liberal vs conservative, democrats vs republicans. Government run things just don't work very well, look at social security, medicare/medicaid, fema, feds (fannie/freddie), unemployement benefits, etc.. these are some of the very poorly run, corrupt, and wasteful spending we've seen in the government. Now the government is going to attempt to run the auto industry, banks, and soon healthcare? Are you kidding me?
It's worthy of debate, but anybody with the right of mind should look into both sides of the argument before going along with one. Politicians don't make things better. If they're pushing for something, somebody in DC is making money.
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Been to the VA hospital lately...
Let Doctors compete for services,get law suits out the doctors offices.My Doctor which i have know for yrs has stop seeing Medicaid and Medicare patients because the government red tape and they don't pay !!!
this is happing all over the nation not to mention the fact that hospitals along the border are being flooded with patients from Canada because they cant get services in the there government run heath care system.
plus the fact that Obama plan will only cost about 1.6 trillion dollars.
Banks under assault,Car company's are under assault,Insurance are under assault, now health care is under assault.
The tipping point is almost here folks...
Trade in material assumptions for spiritual facts and make permanent progress.
Here is the article:
Ken Smith, Losing (Ownership Control), Harvard Business Review, June 2009. hbr.harvardbusiness.org/2009/06/losing-ownership-control/ar/1 You can expect the corporate headquarters to relocate abroad in addition the lose of my service jobs in the United States as a result of the loss of ownership control. Good luck.
Ooops: I intended to edit my above post instead of replying. I do not know what industry you "average Joe" or "little people" are going to work in because you should prepare for and anticipate the loss of service-sector jobs in the U.S. Probably something you are not even aware of. The need for health care now is so crucial especially with such widespread job losses compounded with industry collapses (from finance to auto to you name it).
Your social class should not determine whether you live or die.
Next
What's the AMA's opinion on this if you know or can link me to an opinion? I've searched but turned up nothing.
I ask because obviously the government is taking their cues from the AMA right now, so where does that organization sit with the AMA?
I like the Doctor's health plan WAAAAY more then I like the Federal Governments health plan. There are many reasons not to like socialized medicine in this form.
It costs $1.6 Trillion, thats $5000/citizen per year and it doesn't even provide coverage for all those citizens. Of those covered they will recieve subpar health coverage. The doctors health plan costs $1200/citizen Max, and provides much more excellent care while not costing the taxpayers money and removing Medicare/Medicaid from the federal budget. In a time when 1/3rd our budget is spent paying interest on debt, we cannot be deficit spending, especially at such an autrociously high level. $1.6 Trillion is the entire federal budget after interest on debt is paid. With a deficit as high as this plan would create, in 8 years unless we cut every single other government program, the nation would have hit debt levels it cannot possibly pay back. More then 100% of the budget would be spent on paying interest to debt.
You know the quality of care will be poor considering its run by the government. There has only been 1 semi-efficient spender in the Federal Government, and thats the Military. At the peak of government spending effeciency, the best health coverage the Military can come up with is the VA Hospital. Not really the greatest experience if you have ever needed a procedure done.
I think the federal healthplan as it is, is a plan that will funnel money to special interests while continuing to bring one of the greatest nations in the world to a 3rd world nation. I think if an honest attempt by the government to make federal healthcare is possible it has to start with reform. We have to stop paying for other countries socialized medicine, and the insurance/healthcare industry must have more stringent regulations placed on them. Also as mentioned with the Doctor's Health Plan, there needs to be a new way to hold Doctor's accountable for malpractice to avoid the huge costs of frivilous lawsuits.
I'm working on a plan to outlaw breathing unless you buy Oxygen from me.
I mean why would people think breathing should be any different than renting a car?
The Official God FAQ
http://www.oxygeninacan.com/
i think your a little late to get into the oxygen business
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http://www.oxygeninacan.com/
i think your a little late to get into the oxygen business
No better cure for a hangover than pure oxygen.
I find the whole back-and-forth about health care to be more that a little perplexing to be quite honest. Most especially considering stance taken by the 2 major political parties in America.
The right-wing Christian conservatives want everyone to pay for health care. How great would Jesus have been if he asked for money when he healed the leper? When he gave the blind back their sight? When he brought Jairus’ daughter back from death? If I were a Christian I think I would ask myself what Jesus would do before making up my mind on a decision; isn’t the whole point to be Christ like? Instead they look at repercussions in the market place and how it will affect their pocket-books.
On the other side it’s the heathen liberals who want to destroy family values and corrupt our kids, and now they want everyone to receive medical attention when sick. Who are willing to pay extra in taxes to make sure that their fellow American’s don’t have to worry about being in debt for the rest of their lives because they broke their leg.
Let’s be honest, if you’re calling yourself a Christian yet wanting to deny someone health-care because it might result in you paying a bit more in taxes, then you’re fucking pathetic. Way to love thy neighbor guys. I’m sure Jesus is proud.
The christian value is charity, not robbery. The Christian thing would be to donate to a free clinic or one of the many christian health facilities, not be forced into it. To pay for the proposed plan thats around $450/month for everyone. Do you know what kind of killer medical insurance I can get for $450/month? Its simply to wasteful which means it isn't about giving the sick treatment, its about conning the american people out of money under that pretext.
Like the for-profit health care racket we have in this country isn't conning the American people out of money?
Jesus Christ, you right wingers act as if paying money to the government for a service is the worst possible thing in the world.
The health insurance companies don't work based on monopolies, they work in competition with each other. The reason for higher healthcare costs is because of the additional costs being placed on the health industry continously. Atleast with the health insurance companies they aren't conning me out of $450/month for $50/month coverage. Read my post above that previous post for a full rebuttal of what you said.
Warning: I read nothing else in the thread but the OP post. So I'm posting blindly
So if someone didn't get the best lot in life, and cant afford to get some medicine, and they will die without, we should just let them 'die' because healthcare is a commodity? That's just sick imo. To let someone die, because they cant afford it. Isn't there something in the Hypocratic oath that would support my argument. I can bet there is, but I haven't read it in along time, but I know for a fact it didnt say "Oh yea, and restrict healthcare to those who can afford it".
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