Sabiancym, stop acting like religion is some evil selfish entity. Its disgraceful to what church groups have done. The US is the most charitous nation because of these groups, and they don't do it because the government tells them they have to. However, not everyone is Jesus. There is a limit to what people want to do for Charity. The main problem with national healthcare on the pretext of charity is that it stems from selfishness not charity. Even a person on welfare can afford Health Insurance. The difference is they choose not to.
The US is not only charitable because of religion. The U.S. is charitable because of humanity. Something a lot of people have without being promised a reward when they die.
And you proclaiming that everyone can afford healthcare but choose not to is proof that you are too ignorant to even be in this discussion.
There aren't that many rich people seeking tax breaks to make up even 50% of all charity in the United States. The largest charity is the $5~$10 most people give to a church every sunday. Millions of people giving a small amount is often greater then a few giving a large amount. I think its a joke when someone pronounces the Churches don't help the homeless or people who lost their home. They provide rooms to them, feed them, and even have large soup kitchens. I think its intangible the amount of charity religious groups have given in all sectors. From African Relief, to cancer research.
Yes, just about anyone can afford healthcare. For an individual its $50~$100/month for full coverage with a $3000 deductible. The only way you can't afford it is if you are not working and not on welfare/unemployment. Those millions of people a year going bankrupt from medical costs are people who have gambled not getting health insurance. The only real problem are people with severe pre-existing medical conditions, and thats why I like the afor mentioned planned doctors have put forward.
I wouldn't waste my time arguing with that poster unless you are bored.
Someone has persuaded people to vote against and advocate against their own, and their country's, best interests. It has been my experience that Republicans are much (much) more apt to vote-against their own self-interest.
It troubles me and I feel embarrased for people, when I see them support public policies and industries that are literally working against their health.
It is irrational.
People need a total and complete reinvention of their notions of security and health. Our problems are complex, unpredictable, interconnected (globally), and defy our efforts at managing risk and control (financial crises to terrorism to the environment to universal health care). We - - SHOCKINGLY - - have people advocating for the AMA, drug companies, and insurance companies, although THOSE PEOPLE's health care is the most expensive in the world, least accessible, and very low ranked in terms of global standards concerning quality. THIS THINKING TROUBLES ME. I anticipate more trying times ahead that require a resilience as well as a flexibility that is alien to most people. The current system of health care in the United States required a total reinvention . . . which requires a total reinvention about how people approach and think about problems.
Are you refering to me? You have not responded to my posts, then respond to a guy insultingly refering to me on a topic he knows little about. I deal with the healthcare crisis frist hand and am in no way voting against our peoples best interest, and I strongly disagree that the course we are currently on with is the best course for our people due to the limitations of government run healthcare. Obama is taking his advice from the AMA, the organization partially responsible for the healthcare crisis in the first place rather than the doctors on the front lines treating people for free. I really wish you would read the posts you have responded to, including the links. Feel free to call and speak with a IADMD rep and see how this organization is truly different than the rest. This organization exists to make sure all people, not just US citizens, not just those that can afford healthcare, not just those textbook cases that will fall into the systems treatment.. THIS organization treats everyone even after government run healthcare has failed them even after insurance companies have failed them.
I am not a republican.. and It is not about self interest, it is about what is best for humanity. The idea that EVERYONE cannot be treated is a LIE. It does not have to be run that way, and these hard working doctors have a plan to make it happen. They are ignored because they spend their money on patients not on politics.
For an individual its $50~$100/month for full coverage with a $3000 deductible.
What planet are you on?
Here in Illinois, you can't get a policy for less than $1650 a year. And that's employer/institutionally subsidized, single person, under 35, a non-smoker, perfect weight, and perfect health.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
For an individual its $50~$100/month for full coverage with a $3000 deductible.
What planet are you on?
Here in Illinois, you can't get a policy for less than $1650 a year. And that's employer/institutionally subsidized, single person, under 35, a non-smoker, perfect weight, and perfect health.
It is interesting that you mention Illinois or Chicago or both. When I purchase things online, I always see taxes for three states: CA, IL, and NY. As cities grew, Americans faced increasingly corrupt political machines in the city. Declining quality in public schools, increasing criminality, and expanded bureaucacies. People were able to get-out. Escape. Abandon the city for the suburb and ex-burb (or in rare cases, pocket or edge communities in the cities themselves). By and large, people were able to be "mobile" and leave.
The health care machinery cannot be escaped. Insurers from different states cannot compete. The AMA has total and complete control over medical schools. Drug companies charge Americans more than anyone for pharmaceutical drugs.
The point is that people cannot escape this expensive, bureaucratic, and corrupt health care system, unlike how they were able to escape the city. We never politically debated the city, and we still do not. Why? Why debate and fight city hall when you can simply escape it. The political debate regarding health care, however, has no single-payer advocate at the table. No consumer advocate at the table. No patient advocate at the table. It is all the machine people.
So, stay the course until our bloated health system finally collapses in on itself Faxxer? Let more and more people fall through the cracks just because it benefits the markets. Exactly when did "The Market" become more important than the well being of the citizens of the country? How do you explain to hard working people who have families that lose their health insurance ( more and more over the years) due to no fault of their own that this is just how the "free markets works"? Huh? Just how do you explain that to them with out looking like a tyranical bastard??
how does anyone reason with such kneejerk-ness?
Just look yourself in a mirror and ask if the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT can do a better job than doctors. if you can't do it, then your ignorance surpasses all the dropout rate in all the US
The doctors? Heh. They've been out of the loop since the Nixon Administration.
Health care these days is run by bureaucracy. The difference is whether it is a private bureaucracy that has to pay for CEO bonuses, lobbyists, junkets, and investors; or a public bureaucracy that is actually bound by administrative law and federal oversight.
And given that choice, I think that the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT can do a better job. Its administrative costs are much lower than private insurance companies.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Sabiancym, stop acting like religion is some evil selfish entity. Its disgraceful to what church groups have done. The US is the most charitous nation because of these groups, and they don't do it because the government tells them they have to. However, not everyone is Jesus. There is a limit to what people want to do for Charity. The main problem with national healthcare on the pretext of charity is that it stems from selfishness not charity. Even a person on welfare can afford Health Insurance. The difference is they choose not to.
The US is not only charitable because of religion. The U.S. is charitable because of humanity. Something a lot of people have without being promised a reward when they die.
And you proclaiming that everyone can afford healthcare but choose not to is proof that you are too ignorant to even be in this discussion.
There aren't that many rich people seeking tax breaks to make up even 50% of all charity in the United States. The largest charity is the $5~$10 most people give to a church every sunday. Millions of people giving a small amount is often greater then a few giving a large amount. I think its a joke when someone pronounces the Churches don't help the homeless or people who lost their home. They provide rooms to them, feed them, and even have large soup kitchens. I think its intangible the amount of charity religious groups have given in all sectors. From African Relief, to cancer research.
Yes, just about anyone can afford healthcare. For an individual its $50~$100/month for full coverage with a $3000 deductible. The only way you can't afford it is if you are not working and not on welfare/unemployment. Those millions of people a year going bankrupt from medical costs are people who have gambled not getting health insurance. The only real problem are people with severe pre-existing medical conditions, and thats why I like the afor mentioned planned doctors have put forward.
$50-$100 a month? You're either basing your figures off of some life simulator game, or you've never bought health insurance before.
And I love the lack of faith you have in Americans. Claiming they're only charitable because of religion. So if there was no reward at the end of the rainbow, would you still help others out? Or are you only doing it because you want to help yourself out?
So, stay the course until our bloated health system finally collapses in on itself Faxxer? Let more and more people fall through the cracks just because it benefits the markets. Exactly when did "The Market" become more important than the well being of the citizens of the country? How do you explain to hard working people who have families that lose their health insurance ( more and more over the years) due to no fault of their own that this is just how the "free markets works"? Huh? Just how do you explain that to them with out looking like a tyranical bastard??
how does anyone reason with such kneejerk-ness?
Just look yourself in a mirror and ask if the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT can do a better job than doctors. if you can't do it, then your ignorance surpasses all the dropout rate in all the US
The doctors? Heh. They've been out of the loop since the Nixon Administration.
Health care these days is run by bureaucracy. The difference is whether it is a private bureaucracy that has to pay for CEO bonuses, lobbyists, junkets, and investors; or a public bureaucracy that is actually bound by administrative law and federal oversight.
And given that choice, I think that the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT can do a better job. Its administrative costs are much lower than private insurance companies.
wow. yes because the governement loves to pay $500 for a toilet seat, it's soooo much better than the private sector
So, stay the course until our bloated health system finally collapses in on itself Faxxer? Let more and more people fall through the cracks just because it benefits the markets. Exactly when did "The Market" become more important than the well being of the citizens of the country? How do you explain to hard working people who have families that lose their health insurance ( more and more over the years) due to no fault of their own that this is just how the "free markets works"? Huh? Just how do you explain that to them with out looking like a tyranical bastard??
how does anyone reason with such kneejerk-ness?
Just look yourself in a mirror and ask if the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT can do a better job than doctors. if you can't do it, then your ignorance surpasses all the dropout rate in all the US
The doctors? Heh. They've been out of the loop since the Nixon Administration.
Health care these days is run by bureaucracy. The difference is whether it is a private bureaucracy that has to pay for CEO bonuses, lobbyists, junkets, and investors; or a public bureaucracy that is actually bound by administrative law and federal oversight.
And given that choice, I think that the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT can do a better job. Its administrative costs are much lower than private insurance companies.
wow. yes because the governement loves to pay $500 for a toilet seat, it's soooo much better than the private sector
Just like hospitals love to charge $50 for an aspirin? The private insurance companies have no problem paying for that.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
$50-$100 a month? You're either basing your figures off of some life simulator game, or you've never bought health insurance before.
And I love the lack of faith you have in Americans. Claiming they're only charitable because of religion. So if there was no reward at the end of the rainbow, would you still help others out? Or are you only doing it because you want to help yourself out?
I quoted my own health coverage, which is $50/month. There is no greater lack of faith in the American People when government thinks it has to be charitable for them. I don't claim they are only charitable because of religion. However, I cannot deny the fact of how charitable religion is.
Also haha Illinios. That state is digging its own grave. Following in that states footsteps I can see why health insurance and goods cost so much. Its just too bad the citizens don't get anything out of the higher costs and taxes while businesses are running away in mass from that state.
So, stay the course until our bloated health system finally collapses in on itself Faxxer? Let more and more people fall through the cracks just because it benefits the markets. Exactly when did "The Market" become more important than the well being of the citizens of the country? How do you explain to hard working people who have families that lose their health insurance ( more and more over the years) due to no fault of their own that this is just how the "free markets works"? Huh? Just how do you explain that to them with out looking like a tyranical bastard??
how does anyone reason with such kneejerk-ness?
Just look yourself in a mirror and ask if the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT can do a better job than doctors. if you can't do it, then your ignorance surpasses all the dropout rate in all the US
The doctors? Heh. They've been out of the loop since the Nixon Administration.
Health care these days is run by bureaucracy. The difference is whether it is a private bureaucracy that has to pay for CEO bonuses, lobbyists, junkets, and investors; or a public bureaucracy that is actually bound by administrative law and federal oversight.
And given that choice, I think that the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT can do a better job. Its administrative costs are much lower than private insurance companies.
wow. yes because the governement loves to pay $500 for a toilet seat, it's soooo much better than the private sector
Damn straight it is. Insurance companies are much better and more experienced at fucking people over than the federal government could ever DREAM of being. I trust the federal government A MILLION TIMES MORE than ANY insurance company.
Why has heathcare become regarded as a basic human right rather than a capitalistic service? How is it different than things like haircuts or oil change services? Its astonishing that people forget the basic economic concepts when it comes to healthcare. It's not a right, its an expensive service that not everyone can afford. If you can't afford a product, you don't buy it. Yet doctors and medicine don't follow that? - Avg cost of an MRI: $2000 - Avg cost of heart bypass surgeory: $57,000 Now answer me this, why do liberals act like these services/products do not follow the basic rules of trade? Why should these industry items be considered "free?" The reason why socialzed medicine won't work is because we, as a country, cannot afford it. Not with taxes either. The point is that medicine is a business.. a gigantic one at that. The prices of goods and services within this sector are determined with supply/demand just like everything else in the US. I fail to understand how citizens can say to themselves, "Well I sure as hell can't afford this, so the government should buy it for me!"
As I read through this thread, I find it amazing how cavalierly people will put a gun to a person's head and take what they claim they need and declare it a right why? "because I need it and because WE agreed it is a right. Give us our health care or we will shoot! Pay for our health care you rich bastard or we will kill you!"
So, stay the course until our bloated health system finally collapses in on itself Faxxer? Let more and more people fall through the cracks just because it benefits the markets. Exactly when did "The Market" become more important than the well being of the citizens of the country? How do you explain to hard working people who have families that lose their health insurance ( more and more over the years) due to no fault of their own that this is just how the "free markets works"? Huh? Just how do you explain that to them with out looking like a tyranical bastard??
how does anyone reason with such kneejerk-ness?
Just look yourself in a mirror and ask if the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT can do a better job than doctors. if you can't do it, then your ignorance surpasses all the dropout rate in all the US
The doctors? Heh. They've been out of the loop since the Nixon Administration.
Health care these days is run by bureaucracy. The difference is whether it is a private bureaucracy that has to pay for CEO bonuses, lobbyists, junkets, and investors; or a public bureaucracy that is actually bound by administrative law and federal oversight.
And given that choice, I think that the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT can do a better job. Its administrative costs are much lower than private insurance companies.
wow. yes because the governement loves to pay $500 for a toilet seat, it's soooo much better than the private sector
Damn straight it is. Insurance companies are much better and more experienced at fucking people over than the federal government could ever DREAM of being. I trust the federal government A MILLION TIMES MORE than ANY insurance company.
The better of 2 bad choices does not make it better. It does not make it the right choice, no it is just another bad choice. I stronlgy oppose the insurance and phamarceutical lobbist organizations. The insurance companies are in business for one reason, to make a profit. As long as they are making a huge profit off of people's health, peoples health will suffer from this. I strongly oppose the pharamceutical lobbys as well, rather than making medicine because it is profitable, they need to be making medicine to make people well. Address these 2 things and you have greatly reduced healthcare costs.
Why has heathcare become regarded as a basic human right rather than a capitalistic service? How is it different than things like haircuts or oil change services? Its astonishing that people forget the basic economic concepts when it comes to healthcare. It's not a right, its an expensive service that not everyone can afford. If you can't afford a product, you don't buy it. Yet doctors and medicine don't follow that? - Avg cost of an MRI: $2000 - Avg cost of heart bypass surgeory: $57,000 Now answer me this, why do liberals act like these services/products do not follow the basic rules of trade? Why should these industry items be considered "free?" The reason why socialzed medicine won't work is because we, as a country, cannot afford it. Not with taxes either. The point is that medicine is a business.. a gigantic one at that. The prices of goods and services within this sector are determined with supply/demand just like everything else in the US. I fail to understand how citizens can say to themselves, "Well I sure as hell can't afford this, so the government should buy it for me!"
As I read through this thread, I find it amazing how cavalierly people will put a gun to a person's head and take what they claim they need and declare it a right why? "because I need it and because WE agreed it is a right. Give us our health care or we will shoot! Pay for our health care you rich bastard or we will kill you!"
Looting, pure and simple.
And here we go.
I know that greed rules all, Fisher, but nobody is putting a gun to anyone's head. The OP asked why people think that health care is a right. And here's why -- BECAUSE IT IS. Especially in a country with as high of a standard of living as ours. Who is saying "pay for my health care, rich bastard?"
For-profit health care is an awful, awful thing. Health care in this country is a prime example of how, left unchecked and unregulated, the free market will consistently screw over the little guy.
Why has heathcare become regarded as a basic human right rather than a capitalistic service? How is it different than things like haircuts or oil change services? Its astonishing that people forget the basic economic concepts when it comes to healthcare. It's not a right, its an expensive service that not everyone can afford. If you can't afford a product, you don't buy it. Yet doctors and medicine don't follow that? - Avg cost of an MRI: $2000 - Avg cost of heart bypass surgeory: $57,000 Now answer me this, why do liberals act like these services/products do not follow the basic rules of trade? Why should these industry items be considered "free?" The reason why socialzed medicine won't work is because we, as a country, cannot afford it. Not with taxes either. The point is that medicine is a business.. a gigantic one at that. The prices of goods and services within this sector are determined with supply/demand just like everything else in the US. I fail to understand how citizens can say to themselves, "Well I sure as hell can't afford this, so the government should buy it for me!"
As I read through this thread, I find it amazing how cavalierly people will put a gun to a person's head and take what they claim they need and declare it a right why? "because I need it and because WE agreed it is a right. Give us our health care or we will shoot! Pay for our health care you rich bastard or we will kill you!"
Looting, pure and simple.
And here we go.
I know that greed rules all, Fisher, but nobody is putting a gun to anyone's head. The OP asked why people think that health care is a right. And here's why -- BECAUSE IT IS. Especially in a country with as high of a standard of living as ours. Who is saying "pay for my health care, rich bastard?"
For-profit health care is an awful, awful thing. Health care in this country is a prime example of how, left unchecked and unregulated, the free market will consistently screw over the little guy.
I never realized that Fisher had such a flair for excessive dramatics. Learn something new everyday. Like others he sees the government as evil and taxes as theft and big business should be able to do what it pleases as long as the gods of "free market" are served. Fortunately for the rest of us the real world doesn't work that way (at least not yet, one should never underestimate the power of stupidity and greed) and I suspect if it did he and those like him might not find it all the pleasing.
Why cost out pace inflation.the chart has getting even worse in the past yrs.lawyers are driving the cost threw the roof,If they destroy the system you have no choice but to turn to the feds.
In California, for instance, between 1993 and 2003, 60 hospitals closed because of over 50% of unpaid services, and another 24 California hospitals to be closed ...this yr,,, mostly because of Illegal Aliens .
Doctor all over the nation are refusing to see Medicaid and Medicare because the feds only pay 60% of the bill with these patients.
CBOs sent a shock wave threw the senate and congress this week with their new cost of Universal Heath Care,2 trillion..lol
Trade in material assumptions for spiritual facts and make permanent progress.
Since conservatives see national health care as putting a gun to people's head and forcing them to pay for others, I think we should abolish other aspects as well.
Specifically, the military. I didn't ask to be protected. Their forcing me to pay for something that I don't support. Let's remove that, and then we'll go to town on every other "forced" charity. Like highway funding, prison upkeep, any type of religious set-asides, etc.
I mean cmon, I don't want to pay for that. Why are you forcing me to?
I believe in a viable public option so much that I think if the Dems in Congress write the health care bill and royally fuck it up over this perceived need to appease the Republicans whose bankrupt ideas were trounced in November, Obama should veto it.
Since conservatives see national health care as putting a gun to people's head and forcing them to pay for others, I think we should abolish other aspects as well.
Specifically, the military. I didn't ask to be protected. Their forcing me to pay for something that I don't support. Let's remove that, and then we'll go to town on every other "forced" charity. Like highway funding, prison upkeep, any type of religious set-asides, etc.
I mean cmon, I don't want to pay for that. Why are you forcing me to?
See how stupid that argument sounds?
That idea sounds great to me. I think the military is bloated along with highway funding, prison upkeep, and religious set-asides. The military budget can easily be cut in half if not more, or using defense contractors to create more then just weapons.
I believe in a viable public option so much that I think if the Dems in Congress write the health care bill and royally fuck it up over this perceived need to appease the Republicans whose bankrupt ideas were trounced in November, Obama should veto it.
I agree with you. It is fascinating to me how we have socialism for the wealthy, corporate farmers, pharmaceutical companies, and so forth but no option for American citizens to make a voluntary choice to participate in a public-option. Options is the sine qua non of capitalism: forty television channels, competition, 60 different boxes of cereals, 100 different kinds of beers, a single operating system (oops!), and so forth.
We need government involvement in the health care system. The corporate for-profit health care model is too expensive, leaves MILLIONS uninsured, leaves MILLIONS underinsured, leaves man overinsured, inefficient, lobby-dominated, bureaucratic, and downright shit quality (the U.S.A. is ranked 37th www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html).
Aside: I just recently returned from a trip to Paris a few weeks ago. I speak French. The French love to discuss philosophy and politics --many people asked me my opinion on Obama-- and I ask what they think about their health care system. I spoke with a wide range of French citizens, and all supported their health care system. It is, afterall, ranked number one. We should adopt a system modeled, at least inspired, by France. We can discuss this more.
We can be #1 again regarding our health care if we are pro-patient and not pro-industry (drugs, AMA, and insurers)
This requires public-and-private insurance options to reduce costs, increase coverage, enhance competition, and improve the quality of our nation's health care
Defending this model is beyond absurd and, literally, killing us . . . .
Health care is now, in the USA, compared with our countries of the WORLD, the largest GDP expenditure. I read somewhere recently that health care will be half our economy within twenty years. FIFTY CENTS OF EVERY DOLLAR EARNED IN THE USA WILL GO TO SUPPORT AND SUSTAIN THIS BLOATED, INEFFICIENT, HONESTLY FATAL HEALTH CARE MODEL
Since conservatives see national health care as putting a gun to people's head and forcing them to pay for others, I think we should abolish other aspects as well.
Specifically, the military. I didn't ask to be protected. Their forcing me to pay for something that I don't support. Let's remove that, and then we'll go to town on every other "forced" charity. Like highway funding, prison upkeep, any type of religious set-asides, etc.
I mean cmon, I don't want to pay for that. Why are you forcing me to?
See how stupid that argument sounds?
That idea sounds great to me. I think the military is bloated along with highway funding, prison upkeep, and religious set-asides. The military budget can easily be cut in half if not more, or using defense contractors to create more then just weapons.
I didn't say cut in half, I said abolished completely. Because like you said, forcing someone to pay for others well-being isn't right.
Originally posted by Precusor Communist china does not have tax payer healthcare or welfare. Why is that?
For the same reason they, Communist China has legalized state sponsored abortions forced on their citizens, too. They have too many people and need to get rid of a couple excess million a year, or they eat dirt like in the 18th century.
Why is that? Think before you ask questions like that.
Why has heathcare become regarded as a basic human right rather than a capitalistic service? How is it different than things like haircuts or oil change services? Its astonishing that people forget the basic economic concepts when it comes to healthcare. It's not a right, its an expensive service that not everyone can afford. If you can't afford a product, you don't buy it. Yet doctors and medicine don't follow that? - Avg cost of an MRI: $2000 - Avg cost of heart bypass surgeory: $57,000 Now answer me this, why do liberals act like these services/products do not follow the basic rules of trade? Why should these industry items be considered "free?" The reason why socialzed medicine won't work is because we, as a country, cannot afford it. Not with taxes either. The point is that medicine is a business.. a gigantic one at that. The prices of goods and services within this sector are determined with supply/demand just like everything else in the US. I fail to understand how citizens can say to themselves, "Well I sure as hell can't afford this, so the government should buy it for me!"
As I read through this thread, I find it amazing how cavalierly people will put a gun to a person's head and take what they claim they need and declare it a right why? "because I need it and because WE agreed it is a right. Give us our health care or we will shoot! Pay for our health care you rich bastard or we will kill you!"
Looting, pure and simple.
And here we go.
I know that greed rules all, Fisher, but nobody is putting a gun to anyone's head. The OP asked why people think that health care is a right. And here's why -- BECAUSE IT IS. Especially in a country with as high of a standard of living as ours. Who is saying "pay for my health care, rich bastard?"
For-profit health care is an awful, awful thing. Health care in this country is a prime example of how, left unchecked and unregulated, the free market will consistently screw over the little guy.
Everything government does it does by force. beneath every lw, every regulation, every dolar taken from the citozen, is the gun.
The health care in this country has been destroyed by socialist encroachment -- by government biddng up the costs through medicaid, medicare, and coercive insurance laws.
Rights are the things we can defend by force. They are not things that you take from others.
Why has heathcare become regarded as a basic human right rather than a capitalistic service? How is it different than things like haircuts or oil change services? Its astonishing that people forget the basic economic concepts when it comes to healthcare. It's not a right, its an expensive service that not everyone can afford. If you can't afford a product, you don't buy it. Yet doctors and medicine don't follow that? - Avg cost of an MRI: $2000 - Avg cost of heart bypass surgeory: $57,000 Now answer me this, why do liberals act like these services/products do not follow the basic rules of trade? Why should these industry items be considered "free?" The reason why socialzed medicine won't work is because we, as a country, cannot afford it. Not with taxes either. The point is that medicine is a business.. a gigantic one at that. The prices of goods and services within this sector are determined with supply/demand just like everything else in the US. I fail to understand how citizens can say to themselves, "Well I sure as hell can't afford this, so the government should buy it for me!"
As I read through this thread, I find it amazing how cavalierly people will put a gun to a person's head and take what they claim they need and declare it a right why? "because I need it and because WE agreed it is a right. Give us our health care or we will shoot! Pay for our health care you rich bastard or we will kill you!"
Looting, pure and simple.
And here we go.
I know that greed rules all, Fisher, but nobody is putting a gun to anyone's head. The OP asked why people think that health care is a right. And here's why -- BECAUSE IT IS. Especially in a country with as high of a standard of living as ours. Who is saying "pay for my health care, rich bastard?"
For-profit health care is an awful, awful thing. Health care in this country is a prime example of how, left unchecked and unregulated, the free market will consistently screw over the little guy.
I never realized that Fisher had such a flair for excessive dramatics. Learn something new everyday. Like others he sees the government as evil and taxes as theft and big business should be able to do what it pleases as long as the gods of "free market" are served. Fortunately for the rest of us the real world doesn't work that way (at least not yet, one should never underestimate the power of stupidity and greed) and I suspect if it did he and those like him might not find it all the pleasing.
Of course government is evil -- but it is a necessary evil -- it is the natural monopoly of force in our lives. That is what it is, by definition. But the notion of government as evil, but a necessary evil, is one of the founding principles of this nation, at least according to Mr. Jefferson and I.
I know that you and others ee it as your new God, as something to cherish, worship and raise above us all -- but sorry I and other libertarians disagree with you.
Nothing excessive about my dramatics, just explaining to you what government is -- it's how we choose to force one another. Plain and simple.
Comments
The US is not only charitable because of religion. The U.S. is charitable because of humanity. Something a lot of people have without being promised a reward when they die.
And you proclaiming that everyone can afford healthcare but choose not to is proof that you are too ignorant to even be in this discussion.
There aren't that many rich people seeking tax breaks to make up even 50% of all charity in the United States. The largest charity is the $5~$10 most people give to a church every sunday. Millions of people giving a small amount is often greater then a few giving a large amount. I think its a joke when someone pronounces the Churches don't help the homeless or people who lost their home. They provide rooms to them, feed them, and even have large soup kitchens. I think its intangible the amount of charity religious groups have given in all sectors. From African Relief, to cancer research.
Yes, just about anyone can afford healthcare. For an individual its $50~$100/month for full coverage with a $3000 deductible. The only way you can't afford it is if you are not working and not on welfare/unemployment. Those millions of people a year going bankrupt from medical costs are people who have gambled not getting health insurance. The only real problem are people with severe pre-existing medical conditions, and thats why I like the afor mentioned planned doctors have put forward.
Someone has persuaded people to vote against and advocate against their own, and their country's, best interests. It has been my experience that Republicans are much (much) more apt to vote-against their own self-interest.
It troubles me and I feel embarrased for people, when I see them support public policies and industries that are literally working against their health.
It is irrational.
People need a total and complete reinvention of their notions of security and health. Our problems are complex, unpredictable, interconnected (globally), and defy our efforts at managing risk and control (financial crises to terrorism to the environment to universal health care). We - - SHOCKINGLY - - have people advocating for the AMA, drug companies, and insurance companies, although THOSE PEOPLE's health care is the most expensive in the world, least accessible, and very low ranked in terms of global standards concerning quality. THIS THINKING TROUBLES ME. I anticipate more trying times ahead that require a resilience as well as a flexibility that is alien to most people. The current system of health care in the United States required a total reinvention . . . which requires a total reinvention about how people approach and think about problems.
Are you refering to me? You have not responded to my posts, then respond to a guy insultingly refering to me on a topic he knows little about. I deal with the healthcare crisis frist hand and am in no way voting against our peoples best interest, and I strongly disagree that the course we are currently on with is the best course for our people due to the limitations of government run healthcare. Obama is taking his advice from the AMA, the organization partially responsible for the healthcare crisis in the first place rather than the doctors on the front lines treating people for free. I really wish you would read the posts you have responded to, including the links. Feel free to call and speak with a IADMD rep and see how this organization is truly different than the rest. This organization exists to make sure all people, not just US citizens, not just those that can afford healthcare, not just those textbook cases that will fall into the systems treatment.. THIS organization treats everyone even after government run healthcare has failed them even after insurance companies have failed them.
I am not a republican.. and It is not about self interest, it is about what is best for humanity. The idea that EVERYONE cannot be treated is a LIE. It does not have to be run that way, and these hard working doctors have a plan to make it happen. They are ignored because they spend their money on patients not on politics.
What planet are you on?
Here in Illinois, you can't get a policy for less than $1650 a year. And that's employer/institutionally subsidized, single person, under 35, a non-smoker, perfect weight, and perfect health.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
What planet are you on?
Here in Illinois, you can't get a policy for less than $1650 a year. And that's employer/institutionally subsidized, single person, under 35, a non-smoker, perfect weight, and perfect health.
It is interesting that you mention Illinois or Chicago or both. When I purchase things online, I always see taxes for three states: CA, IL, and NY. As cities grew, Americans faced increasingly corrupt political machines in the city. Declining quality in public schools, increasing criminality, and expanded bureaucacies. People were able to get-out. Escape. Abandon the city for the suburb and ex-burb (or in rare cases, pocket or edge communities in the cities themselves). By and large, people were able to be "mobile" and leave.
The health care machinery cannot be escaped. Insurers from different states cannot compete. The AMA has total and complete control over medical schools. Drug companies charge Americans more than anyone for pharmaceutical drugs.
The point is that people cannot escape this expensive, bureaucratic, and corrupt health care system, unlike how they were able to escape the city. We never politically debated the city, and we still do not. Why? Why debate and fight city hall when you can simply escape it. The political debate regarding health care, however, has no single-payer advocate at the table. No consumer advocate at the table. No patient advocate at the table. It is all the machine people.
So, stay the course until our bloated health system finally collapses in on itself Faxxer? Let more and more people fall through the cracks just because it benefits the markets. Exactly when did "The Market" become more important than the well being of the citizens of the country? How do you explain to hard working people who have families that lose their health insurance ( more and more over the years) due to no fault of their own that this is just how the "free markets works"? Huh? Just how do you explain that to them with out looking like a tyranical bastard??
how does anyone reason with such kneejerk-ness?
Just look yourself in a mirror and ask if the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT can do a better job than doctors. if you can't do it, then your ignorance surpasses all the dropout rate in all the US
The doctors? Heh. They've been out of the loop since the Nixon Administration.
Health care these days is run by bureaucracy. The difference is whether it is a private bureaucracy that has to pay for CEO bonuses, lobbyists, junkets, and investors; or a public bureaucracy that is actually bound by administrative law and federal oversight.
And given that choice, I think that the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT can do a better job. Its administrative costs are much lower than private insurance companies.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
The US is not only charitable because of religion. The U.S. is charitable because of humanity. Something a lot of people have without being promised a reward when they die.
And you proclaiming that everyone can afford healthcare but choose not to is proof that you are too ignorant to even be in this discussion.
There aren't that many rich people seeking tax breaks to make up even 50% of all charity in the United States. The largest charity is the $5~$10 most people give to a church every sunday. Millions of people giving a small amount is often greater then a few giving a large amount. I think its a joke when someone pronounces the Churches don't help the homeless or people who lost their home. They provide rooms to them, feed them, and even have large soup kitchens. I think its intangible the amount of charity religious groups have given in all sectors. From African Relief, to cancer research.
Yes, just about anyone can afford healthcare. For an individual its $50~$100/month for full coverage with a $3000 deductible. The only way you can't afford it is if you are not working and not on welfare/unemployment. Those millions of people a year going bankrupt from medical costs are people who have gambled not getting health insurance. The only real problem are people with severe pre-existing medical conditions, and thats why I like the afor mentioned planned doctors have put forward.
$50-$100 a month? You're either basing your figures off of some life simulator game, or you've never bought health insurance before.
And I love the lack of faith you have in Americans. Claiming they're only charitable because of religion. So if there was no reward at the end of the rainbow, would you still help others out? Or are you only doing it because you want to help yourself out?
The Official God FAQ
So, stay the course until our bloated health system finally collapses in on itself Faxxer? Let more and more people fall through the cracks just because it benefits the markets. Exactly when did "The Market" become more important than the well being of the citizens of the country? How do you explain to hard working people who have families that lose their health insurance ( more and more over the years) due to no fault of their own that this is just how the "free markets works"? Huh? Just how do you explain that to them with out looking like a tyranical bastard??
how does anyone reason with such kneejerk-ness?
Just look yourself in a mirror and ask if the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT can do a better job than doctors. if you can't do it, then your ignorance surpasses all the dropout rate in all the US
The doctors? Heh. They've been out of the loop since the Nixon Administration.
Health care these days is run by bureaucracy. The difference is whether it is a private bureaucracy that has to pay for CEO bonuses, lobbyists, junkets, and investors; or a public bureaucracy that is actually bound by administrative law and federal oversight.
And given that choice, I think that the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT can do a better job. Its administrative costs are much lower than private insurance companies.
wow. yes because the governement loves to pay $500 for a toilet seat, it's soooo much better than the private sector
So, stay the course until our bloated health system finally collapses in on itself Faxxer? Let more and more people fall through the cracks just because it benefits the markets. Exactly when did "The Market" become more important than the well being of the citizens of the country? How do you explain to hard working people who have families that lose their health insurance ( more and more over the years) due to no fault of their own that this is just how the "free markets works"? Huh? Just how do you explain that to them with out looking like a tyranical bastard??
how does anyone reason with such kneejerk-ness?
Just look yourself in a mirror and ask if the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT can do a better job than doctors. if you can't do it, then your ignorance surpasses all the dropout rate in all the US
The doctors? Heh. They've been out of the loop since the Nixon Administration.
Health care these days is run by bureaucracy. The difference is whether it is a private bureaucracy that has to pay for CEO bonuses, lobbyists, junkets, and investors; or a public bureaucracy that is actually bound by administrative law and federal oversight.
And given that choice, I think that the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT can do a better job. Its administrative costs are much lower than private insurance companies.
wow. yes because the governement loves to pay $500 for a toilet seat, it's soooo much better than the private sector
Just like hospitals love to charge $50 for an aspirin? The private insurance companies have no problem paying for that.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I quoted my own health coverage, which is $50/month. There is no greater lack of faith in the American People when government thinks it has to be charitable for them. I don't claim they are only charitable because of religion. However, I cannot deny the fact of how charitable religion is.
Also haha Illinios. That state is digging its own grave. Following in that states footsteps I can see why health insurance and goods cost so much. Its just too bad the citizens don't get anything out of the higher costs and taxes while businesses are running away in mass from that state.
So, stay the course until our bloated health system finally collapses in on itself Faxxer? Let more and more people fall through the cracks just because it benefits the markets. Exactly when did "The Market" become more important than the well being of the citizens of the country? How do you explain to hard working people who have families that lose their health insurance ( more and more over the years) due to no fault of their own that this is just how the "free markets works"? Huh? Just how do you explain that to them with out looking like a tyranical bastard??
how does anyone reason with such kneejerk-ness?
Just look yourself in a mirror and ask if the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT can do a better job than doctors. if you can't do it, then your ignorance surpasses all the dropout rate in all the US
The doctors? Heh. They've been out of the loop since the Nixon Administration.
Health care these days is run by bureaucracy. The difference is whether it is a private bureaucracy that has to pay for CEO bonuses, lobbyists, junkets, and investors; or a public bureaucracy that is actually bound by administrative law and federal oversight.
And given that choice, I think that the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT can do a better job. Its administrative costs are much lower than private insurance companies.
wow. yes because the governement loves to pay $500 for a toilet seat, it's soooo much better than the private sector
Damn straight it is. Insurance companies are much better and more experienced at fucking people over than the federal government could ever DREAM of being. I trust the federal government A MILLION TIMES MORE than ANY insurance company.
As I read through this thread, I find it amazing how cavalierly people will put a gun to a person's head and take what they claim they need and declare it a right why? "because I need it and because WE agreed it is a right. Give us our health care or we will shoot! Pay for our health care you rich bastard or we will kill you!"
Looting, pure and simple.
fishermage.blogspot.com
So, stay the course until our bloated health system finally collapses in on itself Faxxer? Let more and more people fall through the cracks just because it benefits the markets. Exactly when did "The Market" become more important than the well being of the citizens of the country? How do you explain to hard working people who have families that lose their health insurance ( more and more over the years) due to no fault of their own that this is just how the "free markets works"? Huh? Just how do you explain that to them with out looking like a tyranical bastard??
how does anyone reason with such kneejerk-ness?
Just look yourself in a mirror and ask if the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT can do a better job than doctors. if you can't do it, then your ignorance surpasses all the dropout rate in all the US
The doctors? Heh. They've been out of the loop since the Nixon Administration.
Health care these days is run by bureaucracy. The difference is whether it is a private bureaucracy that has to pay for CEO bonuses, lobbyists, junkets, and investors; or a public bureaucracy that is actually bound by administrative law and federal oversight.
And given that choice, I think that the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT can do a better job. Its administrative costs are much lower than private insurance companies.
wow. yes because the governement loves to pay $500 for a toilet seat, it's soooo much better than the private sector
Damn straight it is. Insurance companies are much better and more experienced at fucking people over than the federal government could ever DREAM of being. I trust the federal government A MILLION TIMES MORE than ANY insurance company.
The better of 2 bad choices does not make it better. It does not make it the right choice, no it is just another bad choice. I stronlgy oppose the insurance and phamarceutical lobbist organizations. The insurance companies are in business for one reason, to make a profit. As long as they are making a huge profit off of people's health, peoples health will suffer from this. I strongly oppose the pharamceutical lobbys as well, rather than making medicine because it is profitable, they need to be making medicine to make people well. Address these 2 things and you have greatly reduced healthcare costs.
As I read through this thread, I find it amazing how cavalierly people will put a gun to a person's head and take what they claim they need and declare it a right why? "because I need it and because WE agreed it is a right. Give us our health care or we will shoot! Pay for our health care you rich bastard or we will kill you!"
Looting, pure and simple.
And here we go.
I know that greed rules all, Fisher, but nobody is putting a gun to anyone's head. The OP asked why people think that health care is a right. And here's why -- BECAUSE IT IS. Especially in a country with as high of a standard of living as ours. Who is saying "pay for my health care, rich bastard?"
For-profit health care is an awful, awful thing. Health care in this country is a prime example of how, left unchecked and unregulated, the free market will consistently screw over the little guy.
As I read through this thread, I find it amazing how cavalierly people will put a gun to a person's head and take what they claim they need and declare it a right why? "because I need it and because WE agreed it is a right. Give us our health care or we will shoot! Pay for our health care you rich bastard or we will kill you!"
Looting, pure and simple.
And here we go.
I know that greed rules all, Fisher, but nobody is putting a gun to anyone's head. The OP asked why people think that health care is a right. And here's why -- BECAUSE IT IS. Especially in a country with as high of a standard of living as ours. Who is saying "pay for my health care, rich bastard?"
For-profit health care is an awful, awful thing. Health care in this country is a prime example of how, left unchecked and unregulated, the free market will consistently screw over the little guy.
I never realized that Fisher had such a flair for excessive dramatics. Learn something new everyday. Like others he sees the government as evil and taxes as theft and big business should be able to do what it pleases as long as the gods of "free market" are served. Fortunately for the rest of us the real world doesn't work that way (at least not yet, one should never underestimate the power of stupidity and greed) and I suspect if it did he and those like him might not find it all the pleasing.
Why cost out pace inflation.the chart has getting even worse in the past yrs.lawyers are driving the cost threw the roof,If they destroy the system you have no choice but to turn to the feds.
In California, for instance, between 1993 and 2003, 60 hospitals closed because of over 50% of unpaid services, and another 24 California hospitals to be closed ...this yr,,, mostly because of Illegal Aliens .
Doctor all over the nation are refusing to see Medicaid and Medicare because the feds only pay 60% of the bill with these patients.
CBOs sent a shock wave threw the senate and congress this week with their new cost of Universal Heath Care,2 trillion..lol
Trade in material assumptions for spiritual facts and make permanent progress.
Since conservatives see national health care as putting a gun to people's head and forcing them to pay for others, I think we should abolish other aspects as well.
Specifically, the military. I didn't ask to be protected. Their forcing me to pay for something that I don't support. Let's remove that, and then we'll go to town on every other "forced" charity. Like highway funding, prison upkeep, any type of religious set-asides, etc.
I mean cmon, I don't want to pay for that. Why are you forcing me to?
See how stupid that argument sounds?
The Official God FAQ
I believe in a viable public option so much that I think if the Dems in Congress write the health care bill and royally fuck it up over this perceived need to appease the Republicans whose bankrupt ideas were trounced in November, Obama should veto it.
That idea sounds great to me. I think the military is bloated along with highway funding, prison upkeep, and religious set-asides. The military budget can easily be cut in half if not more, or using defense contractors to create more then just weapons.
I agree with you. It is fascinating to me how we have socialism for the wealthy, corporate farmers, pharmaceutical companies, and so forth but no option for American citizens to make a voluntary choice to participate in a public-option. Options is the sine qua non of capitalism: forty television channels, competition, 60 different boxes of cereals, 100 different kinds of beers, a single operating system (oops!), and so forth.
We need government involvement in the health care system. The corporate for-profit health care model is too expensive, leaves MILLIONS uninsured, leaves MILLIONS underinsured, leaves man overinsured, inefficient, lobby-dominated, bureaucratic, and downright shit quality (the U.S.A. is ranked 37th www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html).
Aside: I just recently returned from a trip to Paris a few weeks ago. I speak French. The French love to discuss philosophy and politics --many people asked me my opinion on Obama-- and I ask what they think about their health care system. I spoke with a wide range of French citizens, and all supported their health care system. It is, afterall, ranked number one. We should adopt a system modeled, at least inspired, by France. We can discuss this more.
We can be #1 again regarding our health care if we are pro-patient and not pro-industry (drugs, AMA, and insurers)
This requires public-and-private insurance options to reduce costs, increase coverage, enhance competition, and improve the quality of our nation's health care
EDIT:
That idea sounds great to me. I think the military is bloated along with highway funding, prison upkeep, and religious set-asides. The military budget can easily be cut in half if not more, or using defense contractors to create more then just weapons.
I didn't say cut in half, I said abolished completely. Because like you said, forcing someone to pay for others well-being isn't right.
The Official God FAQ
Communist china does not have tax payer healthcare or welfare.
Why is that?
For the same reason they, Communist China has legalized state sponsored abortions forced on their citizens, too. They have too many people and need to get rid of a couple excess million a year, or they eat dirt like in the 18th century.
Why is that? Think before you ask questions like that.
"TO MICHAEL!"
As I read through this thread, I find it amazing how cavalierly people will put a gun to a person's head and take what they claim they need and declare it a right why? "because I need it and because WE agreed it is a right. Give us our health care or we will shoot! Pay for our health care you rich bastard or we will kill you!"
Looting, pure and simple.
And here we go.
I know that greed rules all, Fisher, but nobody is putting a gun to anyone's head. The OP asked why people think that health care is a right. And here's why -- BECAUSE IT IS. Especially in a country with as high of a standard of living as ours. Who is saying "pay for my health care, rich bastard?"
For-profit health care is an awful, awful thing. Health care in this country is a prime example of how, left unchecked and unregulated, the free market will consistently screw over the little guy.
Everything government does it does by force. beneath every lw, every regulation, every dolar taken from the citozen, is the gun.
The health care in this country has been destroyed by socialist encroachment -- by government biddng up the costs through medicaid, medicare, and coercive insurance laws.
Rights are the things we can defend by force. They are not things that you take from others.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Neither does Somalia. So what?
As I read through this thread, I find it amazing how cavalierly people will put a gun to a person's head and take what they claim they need and declare it a right why? "because I need it and because WE agreed it is a right. Give us our health care or we will shoot! Pay for our health care you rich bastard or we will kill you!"
Looting, pure and simple.
And here we go.
I know that greed rules all, Fisher, but nobody is putting a gun to anyone's head. The OP asked why people think that health care is a right. And here's why -- BECAUSE IT IS. Especially in a country with as high of a standard of living as ours. Who is saying "pay for my health care, rich bastard?"
For-profit health care is an awful, awful thing. Health care in this country is a prime example of how, left unchecked and unregulated, the free market will consistently screw over the little guy.
I never realized that Fisher had such a flair for excessive dramatics. Learn something new everyday. Like others he sees the government as evil and taxes as theft and big business should be able to do what it pleases as long as the gods of "free market" are served. Fortunately for the rest of us the real world doesn't work that way (at least not yet, one should never underestimate the power of stupidity and greed) and I suspect if it did he and those like him might not find it all the pleasing.
Of course government is evil -- but it is a necessary evil -- it is the natural monopoly of force in our lives. That is what it is, by definition. But the notion of government as evil, but a necessary evil, is one of the founding principles of this nation, at least according to Mr. Jefferson and I.
I know that you and others ee it as your new God, as something to cherish, worship and raise above us all -- but sorry I and other libertarians disagree with you.
Nothing excessive about my dramatics, just explaining to you what government is -- it's how we choose to force one another. Plain and simple.
fishermage.blogspot.com