It is simple. I will play a single player game offline if I want all solo. I play online to play with others and a game where you can solo to kill and get everything in the game ruins that for me. Why group when the game is designed to be soloed? All of a sudden that dragon you are killing doesn't seem as dangerous when you walk up with your party and see one person killing it. If they have some solo options in game, I am okay with that. I am not okay with them turning an online game I pay monthly for into a singleplayer game. Why bother playing?
The problem is, you're confusing a massively-multiplayer game with a massively-teaming game. The two are not one and the same. Even if you're playing solo, there are lots of things you want other people around for. You can get buffs and tradeskilling from them. You can buy gear and supplies from them. You can ask for advice for whatever particular quest you're on. You can actually just talk to people. I know that's hard to believe for the more anti-social people who just want to run around killing indiscriminately and raping the corpses, but normal people actually TALK to each other. Imagine that.
All you, and most of the pro-grouping advocates seem to be saying is "that guy over there is making us feel bad because we need a group and he doesn't, therefore we want to ban him from being solo so he doesn't hurt our feelings! Boo Hoo!"
Seriously, are people that shallow and pathetic?
Again insults don't make your argument sound better. Please point out in the post you quoted of mine where I said there should not be solo in MMOs? I only stated there should be group content as well that takes a group to progress through. Solo is fine but I don't care for a completely solo game. I too enjoy some soloing as well sometimes.
You people that are advocating solo in games are all insulting jerks that can't get along with others. Now after reading that statement see how silly it sounds to stereotype a whole group of people.
It is simple. I will play a single player game offline if I want all solo. I play online to play with others and a game where you can solo to kill and get everything in the game ruins that for me. Why group when the game is designed to be soloed? All of a sudden that dragon you are killing doesn't seem as dangerous when you walk up with your party and see one person killing it. If they have some solo options in game, I am okay with that. I am not okay with them turning an online game I pay monthly for into a singleplayer game. Why bother playing?
The problem is, you're confusing a massively-multiplayer game with a massively-teaming game. The two are not one and the same. Even if you're playing solo, there are lots of things you want other people around for. You can get buffs and tradeskilling from them. You can buy gear and supplies from them. You can ask for advice for whatever particular quest you're on. You can actually just talk to people. I know that's hard to believe for the more anti-social people who just want to run around killing indiscriminately and raping the corpses, but normal people actually TALK to each other. Imagine that.
All you, and most of the pro-grouping advocates seem to be saying is "that guy over there is making us feel bad because we need a group and he doesn't, therefore we want to ban him from being solo so he doesn't hurt our feelings! Boo Hoo!"
Seriously, are people that shallow and pathetic?
Again insults don't make your argument sound better. Please point out in the post you quoted of mine where I said there should not be solo in MMOs? I only stated there should be group content as well that takes a group to progress through. Solo is fine but I don't care for a completely solo game. I too enjoy some soloing as well sometimes.
You people that are advocating solo in games are all insulting jerks that can't get along with others. Now after reading that statement see how silly it sounds to stereotype a whole group of people.
Cephus, you're taking this way too personally I think, otherwise you wouldn't be getting so upset over it. Nobody is telling you there shouldn't be soloing allowed in MMOs and nobody is saying there shouldn't be grouping allowed in MMOs. All that I'm saying, and I think I'm generally on the same page as the "pro-groupers" is that we prefer games where grouping is more beneficial than soloing. Not saying that you can't solo if you want to but that the majority of the content is designed to be completed as a group. I'm not saying all MMOs should be like this and I'm certainly not saying this is the "right way" all I'm saying is I prefer games like this.
If you prefer a more solo centric game or one where neither (solo or grouper) has an advantage over the other or one where soloers have an advantage over groups that's fine with me. I won't play that game, i'll play my game. Just like if you don't like a certain genre of music and I do, you don't have to listen to it. And vice versa. There's plenty of room for both types of music and both types of games and plenty of people to pay for both and subscribe to both. So, why are we arguing here again?
It is simple. I will play a single player game offline if I want all solo. I play online to play with others and a game where you can solo to kill and get everything in the game ruins that for me. Why group when the game is designed to be soloed? All of a sudden that dragon you are killing doesn't seem as dangerous when you walk up with your party and see one person killing it. If they have some solo options in game, I am okay with that. I am not okay with them turning an online game I pay monthly for into a singleplayer game. Why bother playing?
The problem is, you're confusing a massively-multiplayer game with a massively-teaming game. The two are not one and the same. Even if you're playing solo, there are lots of things you want other people around for. You can get buffs and tradeskilling from them. You can buy gear and supplies from them. You can ask for advice for whatever particular quest you're on. You can actually just talk to people. I know that's hard to believe for the more anti-social people who just want to run around killing indiscriminately and raping the corpses, but normal people actually TALK to each other. Imagine that.
All you, and most of the pro-grouping advocates seem to be saying is "that guy over there is making us feel bad because we need a group and he doesn't, therefore we want to ban him from being solo so he doesn't hurt our feelings! Boo Hoo!"
Seriously, are people that shallow and pathetic?
Again insults don't make your argument sound better. Please point out in the post you quoted of mine where I said there should not be solo in MMOs? I only stated there should be group content as well that takes a group to progress through. Solo is fine but I don't care for a completely solo game. I too enjoy some soloing as well sometimes.
You people that are advocating solo in games are all insulting jerks that can't get along with others. Now after reading that statement see how silly it sounds to stereotype a whole group of people.
I never said you specifically said it, I referred to "pro-grouping advocates" and if you've been reading this thread, you know that what I said has come up time and time again. People do want to control how other people play so they can feel better about the way they play, that's a demonstrable fact. It seems to me that these pro-grouping people are far too concerned about what everyone else is doing and not nearly concerned enough about just playing the damn game.
Cephus, you're taking this way too personally I think, otherwise you wouldn't be getting so upset over it. Nobody is telling you there shouldn't be soloing allowed in MMOs and nobody is saying there shouldn't be grouping allowed in MMOs. All that I'm saying, and I think I'm generally on the same page as the "pro-groupers" is that we prefer games where grouping is more beneficial than soloing. Not saying that you can't solo if you want to but that the majority of the content is designed to be completed as a group. I'm not saying all MMOs should be like this and I'm certainly not saying this is the "right way" all I'm saying is I prefer games like this. If you prefer a more solo centric game or one where neither (solo or grouper) has an advantage over the other or one where soloers have an advantage over groups that's fine with me. I won't play that game, i'll play my game. Just like if you don't like a certain genre of music and I do, you don't have to listen to it. And vice versa. There's plenty of room for both types of music and both types of games and plenty of people to pay for both and subscribe to both. So, why are we arguing here again?
Yeah, actually, there are. There are plenty of people posting that if you don't want to team in an MMO, you ought to get offline and play a single player game. That certainly seems to suggest that they don't think soloers ought to exist in MMOs, doesn't it? The soloers have never once suggested that we ought to take away the ability of groupers to play in a team, but the groupers routinely post that they ought to stop people from being able to play solo at all.
That's the whole reason people are arguing. I agree there's plenty of room for both, you can do both in virtually any game on the market today and it works just fine... except for the people who apparently feel bad when they see other people playing alone and it fills them with self-doubt. I'm just pointing out that those people need to get over it and stop worrying about everyone else and just play the damn game.
Cephus, you're taking this way too personally I think, otherwise you wouldn't be getting so upset over it. Nobody is telling you there shouldn't be soloing allowed in MMOs and nobody is saying there shouldn't be grouping allowed in MMOs. All that I'm saying, and I think I'm generally on the same page as the "pro-groupers" is that we prefer games where grouping is more beneficial than soloing. Not saying that you can't solo if you want to but that the majority of the content is designed to be completed as a group. I'm not saying all MMOs should be like this and I'm certainly not saying this is the "right way" all I'm saying is I prefer games like this. If you prefer a more solo centric game or one where neither (solo or grouper) has an advantage over the other or one where soloers have an advantage over groups that's fine with me. I won't play that game, i'll play my game. Just like if you don't like a certain genre of music and I do, you don't have to listen to it. And vice versa. There's plenty of room for both types of music and both types of games and plenty of people to pay for both and subscribe to both. So, why are we arguing here again?
Yeah, actually, there are. There are plenty of people posting that if you don't want to team in an MMO, you ought to get offline and play a single player game. That certainly seems to suggest that they don't think soloers ought to exist in MMOs, doesn't it? The soloers have never once suggested that we ought to take away the ability of groupers to play in a team, but the groupers routinely post that they ought to stop people from being able to play solo at all.
That's the whole reason people are arguing. I agree there's plenty of room for both, you can do both in virtually any game on the market today and it works just fine... except for the people who apparently feel bad when they see other people playing alone and it fills them with self-doubt. I'm just pointing out that those people need to get over it and stop worrying about everyone else and just play the damn game.
I don't think anyone really wants there to be no soloing at all. I think what they mean is that they prefer games where soloing is much less beneficial and not equally viable to progress. This is because they prefer grouping and when you mess with the balance, i.e. make soloing equally viable, it does hurt the group dynamic. However, not every game needs to be like this, so yeah, if they think every game needs to cater to their playstyle, they're off-base.
Also, another argument is that every dungeoun in a game, should have the option of being soloable (not saying you're arguing for or against this, just bringing it up). This logically doesn't make much sense because if you lower the difficulty of the mob(s) to accomidate a soloer it will be too easy for a group to beat but if you don't lower the difficulty a soloer can't beat it so in a sense, it can't be one way or the other. Unless you use a scalable difficulty system with instances, which would mean if you're doing the game on a higher difficulty, i.e. with a group, the rewards should logically be better, which in that case people would still complain.
So, I think the best solution would be to have completely different games so you wouldn't have to compromise and everyone would be happy.
Just out of curiosity, what would your ideal game be like?
Cephus, you're taking this way too personally I think, otherwise you wouldn't be getting so upset over it. Nobody is telling you there shouldn't be soloing allowed in MMOs and nobody is saying there shouldn't be grouping allowed in MMOs. All that I'm saying, and I think I'm generally on the same page as the "pro-groupers" is that we prefer games where grouping is more beneficial than soloing. Not saying that you can't solo if you want to but that the majority of the content is designed to be completed as a group. I'm not saying all MMOs should be like this and I'm certainly not saying this is the "right way" all I'm saying is I prefer games like this. If you prefer a more solo centric game or one where neither (solo or grouper) has an advantage over the other or one where soloers have an advantage over groups that's fine with me. I won't play that game, i'll play my game. Just like if you don't like a certain genre of music and I do, you don't have to listen to it. And vice versa. There's plenty of room for both types of music and both types of games and plenty of people to pay for both and subscribe to both. So, why are we arguing here again?
Yeah, actually, there are. There are plenty of people posting that if you don't want to team in an MMO, you ought to get offline and play a single player game. That certainly seems to suggest that they don't think soloers ought to exist in MMOs, doesn't it? The soloers have never once suggested that we ought to take away the ability of groupers to play in a team, but the groupers routinely post that they ought to stop people from being able to play solo at all.
That's the whole reason people are arguing. I agree there's plenty of room for both, you can do both in virtually any game on the market today and it works just fine... except for the people who apparently feel bad when they see other people playing alone and it fills them with self-doubt. I'm just pointing out that those people need to get over it and stop worrying about everyone else and just play the damn game.
Cephus, you're taking this way too personally I think, otherwise you wouldn't be getting so upset over it. Nobody is telling you there shouldn't be soloing allowed in MMOs and nobody is saying there shouldn't be grouping allowed in MMOs. All that I'm saying, and I think I'm generally on the same page as the "pro-groupers" is that we prefer games where grouping is more beneficial than soloing. Not saying that you can't solo if you want to but that the majority of the content is designed to be completed as a group. I'm not saying all MMOs should be like this and I'm certainly not saying this is the "right way" all I'm saying is I prefer games like this. If you prefer a more solo centric game or one where neither (solo or grouper) has an advantage over the other or one where soloers have an advantage over groups that's fine with me. I won't play that game, i'll play my game. Just like if you don't like a certain genre of music and I do, you don't have to listen to it. And vice versa. There's plenty of room for both types of music and both types of games and plenty of people to pay for both and subscribe to both. So, why are we arguing here again?
Yeah, actually, there are. There are plenty of people posting that if you don't want to team in an MMO, you ought to get offline and play a single player game. That certainly seems to suggest that they don't think soloers ought to exist in MMOs, doesn't it? The soloers have never once suggested that we ought to take away the ability of groupers to play in a team, but the groupers routinely post that they ought to stop people from being able to play solo at all.
That's the whole reason people are arguing. I agree there's plenty of room for both, you can do both in virtually any game on the market today and it works just fine... except for the people who apparently feel bad when they see other people playing alone and it fills them with self-doubt. I'm just pointing out that those people need to get over it and stop worrying about everyone else and just play the damn game.
I don't think anyone really wants there to be no soloing at all. I think what they mean is that they prefer games where soloing is much less beneficial and not equally viable to progress. This is because they prefer grouping and when you mess with the balance, i.e. make soloing equally viable, it does hurt the group dynamic. However, not every game needs to be like this, so yeah, if they think every game needs to cater to their playstyle, they're off-base.
Also, another argument is that every dungeoun in a game, should have the option of being soloable (not saying you're arguing for or against this, just bringing it up). This logically doesn't make much sense because if you lower the difficulty of the mob(s) to accomidate a soloer it will be too easy for a group to beat but if you don't lower the difficulty a soloer can't beat it so in a sense, it can't be one way or the other. Unless you use a scalable difficulty system with instances, which would mean if you're doing the game on a higher difficulty, i.e. with a group, the rewards should logically be better, which in that case people would still complain.
So, I think the best solution would be to have completely different games so you wouldn't have to compromise and everyone would be happy.
Just out of curiosity, what would your ideal game be like?
CoV does this well by allowing you to set your rep. If you solo you set the rep low and the instance is easier - if you are in a good group you set it high and it is a real challenge for a group. I suspect CoH does the same but I am more familiar with CoV. This allows for solo, small and large groups all to use the same instance for their purposes. The hard rep users get more drops because there are more mobs.
Now, an argument for the groupers - you say solo play takes away from your forming a group.. well if I disagree, I would not play the game if there was not some solo content so the grouping population is not affected. Also I do group when I feel the need, and I stay in the group till all have finished the task, which is more than a lot of those who just group can say.
Yeah, actually, there are. There are plenty of people posting that if you don't want to team in an MMO, you ought to get offline and play a single player game. That certainly seems to suggest that they don't think soloers ought to exist in MMOs, doesn't it? The soloers have never once suggested that we ought to take away the ability of groupers to play in a team, but the groupers routinely post that they ought to stop people from being able to play solo at all. That's the whole reason people are arguing. I agree there's plenty of room for both, you can do both in virtually any game on the market today and it works just fine... except for the people who apparently feel bad when they see other people playing alone and it fills them with self-doubt. I'm just pointing out that those people need to get over it and stop worrying about everyone else and just play the damn game.
It doesn't work fine though because if a game is designed to be fully soloable then it's too easy in a group.
Creating a full group to take on mobs that can be soloed by a same level priest of hippyness armed with a flower is just silly and pointless. There's no sense of achievement.
The lower level EQ1 open dungeons got it right imo - there might be 30-40 players in somewhere like Crushbone: 2 full groups, 3-4 groups of 2-3 players and a dozen soloers. The higher level dungeons became a bit too groupy imo but the lower ones were perfect as far as this issue is concerned.
I don't think anyone really wants there to be no soloing at all. I think what they mean is that they prefer games where soloing is much less beneficial and not equally viable to progress. This is because they prefer grouping and when you mess with the balance, i.e. make soloing equally viable, it does hurt the group dynamic. However, not every game needs to be like this, so yeah, if they think every game needs to cater to their playstyle, they're off-base. No, there actually are people who want no soloable content whatsoever, you are forced to group to see any content whatsoever. Nobody has ever argued that soloing ought to get you the same XP and the same gear at the same level as grouping, that's a complete fallacy. What people are saying is that people who solo ought to be able to get the same gear in the long run as people who group, it'll just take much longer to do so and that's fine. It's the pro-groupers who want all the 'leet gear that soloers can *NEVER* get, just so they feel better about themselves. Also, another argument is that every dungeoun in a game, should have the option of being soloable (not saying you're arguing for or against this, just bringing it up). This logically doesn't make much sense because if you lower the difficulty of the mob(s) to accomidate a soloer it will be too easy for a group to beat but if you don't lower the difficulty a soloer can't beat it so in a sense, it can't be one way or the other. Unless you use a scalable difficulty system with instances, which would mean if you're doing the game on a higher difficulty, i.e. with a group, the rewards should logically be better, which in that case people would still complain. In fact, every dungeon in every game is going to be soloable eventually. It won't be at the same level as the people who group to beat it, but eventually, there isn't going to be a pre-endgame dungeon in the game where you won't be able to go in solo at some point and that's fine. If you can go into a dungeon at level 50 with a team, why shouldn't someone at level 80 be able to do it alone? What difference does it make? So, I think the best solution would be to have completely different games so you wouldn't have to compromise and everyone would be happy. What compromise are you talking about? People who want to team can team without any sort of compromose. People who want to solo can solo without any sort of compromise. The only people around here who seem to be unhappy are the ones who can't control what everyone around them is doing. That's not compromise, that's a control fetish.
Yeah, actually, there are. There are plenty of people posting that if you don't want to team in an MMO, you ought to get offline and play a single player game. That certainly seems to suggest that they don't think soloers ought to exist in MMOs, doesn't it? The soloers have never once suggested that we ought to take away the ability of groupers to play in a team, but the groupers routinely post that they ought to stop people from being able to play solo at all. That's the whole reason people are arguing. I agree there's plenty of room for both, you can do both in virtually any game on the market today and it works just fine... except for the people who apparently feel bad when they see other people playing alone and it fills them with self-doubt. I'm just pointing out that those people need to get over it and stop worrying about everyone else and just play the damn game.
It doesn't work fine though because if a game is designed to be fully soloable then it's too easy in a group.
Creating a full group to take on mobs that can be soloed by a same level priest of hippyness armed with a flower is just silly and pointless. There's no sense of achievement.
The lower level EQ1 open dungeons got it right imo - there might be 30-40 players in somewhere like Crushbone: 2 full groups, 3-4 groups of 2-3 players and a dozen soloers. The higher level dungeons became a bit too groupy imo but the lower ones were perfect as far as this issue is concerned.
Exactly how can it be too easy in a group? At best, the group might be going after targets that are too easy, they just need to move on to harder targets. It's sad that people can only feel they've achieved something if they're doing something that nobody else can do. Stop worrying about what everyone else is doing and just play the damn game.
Phew, okay. Let me see if I can get this right. The people who enjoy soloing want to be able to get the same kind of gear and accomplishments as the people who play with a group, right? Sorry guys, but if you take a second to step back, that doesn't make any sense at all. You wanna be able to take your one warrior and kill something it took five other people to kill successfully, then you wanna loot it all on your own?
Sorry, but that's what singleplayer games are for. Singleplayer games are *gasp* more geared towards soloing than games that obviously favor mutiplayer social interaction. Unplug the connection, get to Walmart, and get yourself some god-damn 1995 singleplayer game.
Honestly, the only way it could ever work would be if a game were to make a "solo" option for dungeons (instances, whatever), that would decrease the loot quite a bit, as well as the experience. You wanna solo? Fine. But don't get 40 player's worth of loot and experience just because you dont wanna deal with people. Why would people group at all if you could?
So, there it is. Impliment a solo mode for dungeons and instances, make the mobs and bosses much easier so that they can be solo'd by each class type. However, make it so the person who does it alone only gets their share of the experience and loot. Meaning, if 5 items were to drop normally out of a 5-man dungeon, only make 1 drop. No guarentee on if it's for your class or not. There. That would make it so that there are obvious advantages to playing in a group, but people who only enjoy playing with themselves could get along just fine as well.
Exactly how can it be too easy in a group? At best, the group might be going after targets that are too easy, they just need to move on to harder targets. It's sad that people can only feel they've achieved something if they're doing something that nobody else can do. Stop worrying about what everyone else is doing and just play the damn game.
I'm sorry, what?
"Stop worrying about what everyone else is doing and just play the damn game."
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isnt that what MMORPGs are all about? Comparing accomplishments, gear, and sharing the game experience with the people around you? Honestly, I don't mean to sound like a prick here, but if you don't wanna deal with other people.. Why the hell are you playing a genre of gaming that prides itself on social interaction? It makes no sense at all. Sure, here, let's change more than an entire decade of gaming so that you can accomplish just as much by playing with yourself.
It sounds like there are two types of people here. Gamers with people skill, and gamers without. Those with don't mind helping a noob out or having to "deal" with other people in order to get the gear they want. The others don't wanna have to even talk to anybody else in order to fap to their shiny new armor and weapons. "GIVE ME IT NOW." type of mentality, really. It's sad, but I think it's what the new face of gaming to going to be, because that's how the new-age gamer is. No need for social interactions. Hell, without the need for group play..
Why have guilds? Alliances? Hell. Why even make the games online at all? If you can complete all the content on your own and get the SAME gear, why bother? Honestly, lets all just go back to singleplayer games. That way, we can solo everything! Yay!
Phew, okay. Let me see if I can get this right. The people who enjoy soloing want to be able to get the same kind of gear and accomplishments as the people who play with a group, right? Sorry guys, but if you take a second to step back, that doesn't make any sense at all. You wanna be able to take your one warrior and kill something it took five other people to kill successfully, then you wanna loot it all on your own? Eventually, sure. I don't think anyone's arguing that you ought to be able to do it at the same level as the team, but if that level 50 team killed the boss and you come back as a solo at level 80 and do it, what's the problem with that? And yes, if you do all the work, you deserve all the loot. Sorry, but that's what singleplayer games are for. Singleplayer games are *gasp* more geared towards soloing than games that obviously favor mutiplayer social interaction. Unplug the connection, get to Walmart, and get yourself some god-damn 1995 singleplayer game. Solo players pay the same subscription fee that team-players pay. Do try again, won't you? They can play however the hell they want to play and you have absolutely no say in it. That sort of explains why you're bitching about it on an MMO forum. 'nuff said.
Exactly how can it be too easy in a group? At best, the group might be going after targets that are too easy, they just need to move on to harder targets. It's sad that people can only feel they've achieved something if they're doing something that nobody else can do. Stop worrying about what everyone else is doing and just play the damn game.
I'm sorry, what?
"Stop worrying about what everyone else is doing and just play the damn game."
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isnt that what MMORPGs are all about? Comparing accomplishments, gear, and sharing the game experience with the people around you? Honestly, I don't mean to sound like a prick here, but if you don't wanna deal with other people.. Why the hell are you playing a genre of gaming that prides itself on social interaction? It makes no sense at all. Sure, here, let's change more than an entire decade of gaming so that you can accomplish just as much by playing with yourself.
So you think it's about waving your [sticks] around? That's kind of pathetic, isn't it?
Well then, go ahead. Try and solo it. Fine, whatever. You go do that, and I'll be over here in my shiney new gear that you can't get, and you'll never get. For a pretty simple reason, actually, you're unwilling to play the game it was meant to play. Oh, sure, go ahead and give me that "I PAY MY SUBSCRIPTION I SHOULD BE ABLE TO PLAY HOWEVER I WANT BAWWWWWWWWW" bullcrap, but it doesn't matter. 95% (and yeah, that's made up, but it's gotta be pretty close) of the gamers who play, and I stress this again, MMORPGS are FINE with working with others to get to a common goal. If a bunch of whiney kids who don't play well with others think they're going to change an entire genre just to fit them, they're dead wrong.
And AGAIN:
MMORPG stands for Massivly Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game.
Now, let's take a look at that. Massive, okay. Makes sense, large worlds. Multiplayer. Okay, here we go. MORE THAN ONE PLAYER. As in, more than one player is playing the game at any one time, and *gasp* god forbid, but there may be some social interaction there. Online. Well, On-line.. It's over the internet, so that it better connects it players so that they *gasp again* can play together. Role playing, because of it's roots, and game, because it isn't meant to be taken seriously. Whoops.
Phew, okay. Let me see if I can get this right. The people who enjoy soloing want to be able to get the same kind of gear and accomplishments as the people who play with a group, right? Sorry guys, but if you take a second to step back, that doesn't make any sense at all. You wanna be able to take your one warrior and kill something it took five other people to kill successfully, then you wanna loot it all on your own? Eventually, sure. I don't think anyone's arguing that you ought to be able to do it at the same level as the team, but if that level 50 team killed the boss and you come back as a solo at level 80 and do it, what's the problem with that? And yes, if you do all the work, you deserve all the loot. But you didn't do all the work. You didn't work on creating the group. You didn't plan in advance coordinating many individuals to show up at the right time and place. You didn't do the work in holding the group together. You didn't use coordinated attack patterns with others of varying abilities. The truth is you don't want to do the work; you just want to get the loot. And think about your lvl 50 team vs. 80 soloer - you can do that now for god's sake and no one is preventing you. Or did you mean to imply the Uber Sword of Destruction should scale with your lvl? Because logically, everyone would just wait to get the lvl 80 solo version instead of doing, yes - I said it - ALL THE HARD WORK at lvl 50 for a sword that would become obsolete vs. the uber lvl 80 solo version. Sorry, but that's what singleplayer games are for. Singleplayer games are *gasp* more geared towards soloing than games that obviously favor mutiplayer social interaction. Unplug the connection, get to Walmart, and get yourself some god-damn 1995 singleplayer game. Solo players pay the same subscription fee that team-players pay. Do try again, won't you? They can play however the hell they want to play and you have absolutely no say in it. That sort of explains why you're bitching about it on an MMO forum. And I could pay the same green fees at Pebble Beach as you, but I wouldn't use that as an excuse at the clubhouse when complaining that I brought my basketball so they owe me a team game instead of golf. You cannot enter a team game and complain that it isn't solo based. You can't bring your golf ball and clubs to the basketball court and expect it to be a solo game. The problem isn't that you spend as much money, it's that you are spending your money on something you didn't want in the first place. That money excuse is so ridiculous. Did the publisher force you to open your wallet for a game you don't really want to play?.....I mean take some personal responsibility for your own choices.
Exactly how can it be too easy in a group? At best, the group might be going after targets that are too easy, they just need to move on to harder targets. It's sad that people can only feel they've achieved something if they're doing something that nobody else can do. Stop worrying about what everyone else is doing and just play the damn game.
I'm sorry, what?
"Stop worrying about what everyone else is doing and just play the damn game."
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isnt that what MMORPGs are all about? Comparing accomplishments, gear, and sharing the game experience with the people around you? Honestly, I don't mean to sound like a prick here, but if you don't wanna deal with other people.. Why the hell are you playing a genre of gaming that prides itself on social interaction? It makes no sense at all. Sure, here, let's change more than an entire decade of gaming so that you can accomplish just as much by playing with yourself.
So you think it's about waving your dick around? That's kind of pathetic, isn't it?
Who said that? I just said you enjoy playing with yourself more than playing with others. That's true, isnt it? You do want the same gear and content as people who play in groups without having to deal with the group aspect, right?
God, why does it always have to be about dicks with you guys? Damn. Oh, yeah, and it isn't "kind of pathetic" to pick out parts of a post that are nearly irrelivent and throw in bits of ethics to ignore the counter to your idealism, right? Of course not. /sarcsm
I'm done bickering on a forum, but I will leave with something. You obviously play World of Warcraft, as is easily seen by your references. Now, when you purchased that game, did that "10 million players!" label on the front scream to you that it was a solo game? How about the bit on the inside of the cover that mentioned the group play? And the bonuses for doing so?
Did you honestly think you would come on here, and with a few posts, change tradition? There are singleplayer games for a reason. It's like if I started crying about Country music saying that I wanted it to be Rock from now on. Do you think that would be the case? Of course not. Because there is already Rock music, just like there are already solo games.
Stop trying to change the view and game style of millions of players, claiming it's broken. After a while, you're bound to ask "Is it just me?" And stfu. Or, at least, I hope that's the way it goes.
It is simple. I will play a single player game offline if I want all solo. I play online to play with others and a game where you can solo to kill and get everything in the game ruins that for me. Why group when the game is designed to be soloed? All of a sudden that dragon you are killing doesn't seem as dangerous when you walk up with your party and see one person killing it. If they have some solo options in game, I am okay with that. I am not okay with them turning an online game I pay monthly for into a singleplayer game. Why bother playing?
So it is YOUR way or the highway. Go make your own game, and invite only groupers. I do not see how having soloable content ruins the game. Seems to me you are just being selfish.
I consistently SOLO instances - for example my BE Pally SOLOED his weapon quest (piece of crap ranseur) which is listed as multiple 5 man instances. I am not asking for the instances to be dumbed down.
These CAN be soloed IF the player knows how to play their toon class. Too many people scream that they need groups because the do not know how to play without a mob to back them up. I once had a female lock ask me for help in completeing a quest - and then bitch because I didn't kill everything for her so that she could just walk in and pick up the goodies.
Sorry - when I DO group I expect EVERYONE to do their part. When I solo I don't just jump into the middle of DEEP S**T and expect someone else to kill everything for me. Soloing takes BRAINS which I have not found in great quantity among the groupies I have encountered.
I have clothie locks that can take out three or four opponents in a face-to-face - sometimes just using their pet and a SWORD - (Spells help sometimes if the baddies are REAL nasty) It is all in knowing the class capabilities and limitations.
It is simple. I will play a single player game offline if I want all solo. I play online to play with others and a game where you can solo to kill and get everything in the game ruins that for me. Why group when the game is designed to be soloed? All of a sudden that dragon you are killing doesn't seem as dangerous when you walk up with your party and see one person killing it. If they have some solo options in game, I am okay with that. I am not okay with them turning an online game I pay monthly for into a singleplayer game. Why bother playing?
So it is YOUR way or the highway. Go make your own game, and invite only groupers. I do not see how having soloable content ruins the game. Seems to me you are just being selfish.
I consistently SOLO instances - for example my BE Pally SOLOED his weapon quest (piece of crap ranseur) which is listed as multiple 5 man instances. I am not asking for the instances to be dumbed down.
These CAN be soloed IF the player knows how to play their toon class. Too many people scream that they need groups because the do not know how to play without a mob to back them up. I once had a female lock ask me for help in completeing a quest - and then bitch because I didn't kill everything for her so that she could just walk in and pick up the goodies.
Sorry - when I DO group I expect EVERYONE to do their part. When I solo I don't just jump into the middle of DEEP S**T and expect someone else to kill everything for me. Soloing takes BRAINS which I have not found in great quantity among the groupies I have encountered.
I have clothie locks that can take out three or four opponents in a face-to-face - sometimes just using their pet and a SWORD - (Spells help sometimes if the baddies are REAL nasty) It is all in knowing the class capabilities and limitations.
amen brother - in Lotro I have had people 3 lvls higher than me random invite me to do a quest I have already solo'd.
Yeah, actually, there are. There are plenty of people posting that if you don't want to team in an MMO, you ought to get offline and play a single player game. That certainly seems to suggest that they don't think soloers ought to exist in MMOs, doesn't it? The soloers have never once suggested that we ought to take away the ability of groupers to play in a team, but the groupers routinely post that they ought to stop people from being able to play solo at all. That's the whole reason people are arguing. I agree there's plenty of room for both, you can do both in virtually any game on the market today and it works just fine... except for the people who apparently feel bad when they see other people playing alone and it fills them with self-doubt. I'm just pointing out that those people need to get over it and stop worrying about everyone else and just play the damn game.
It doesn't work fine though because if a game is designed to be fully soloable then it's too easy in a group.
Creating a full group to take on mobs that can be soloed by a same level priest of hippyness armed with a flower is just silly and pointless. There's no sense of achievement.
The lower level EQ1 open dungeons got it right imo - there might be 30-40 players in somewhere like Crushbone: 2 full groups, 3-4 groups of 2-3 players and a dozen soloers. The higher level dungeons became a bit too groupy imo but the lower ones were perfect as far as this issue is concerned.
Exactly how can it be too easy in a group? At best, the group might be going after targets that are too easy, they just need to move on to harder targets. It's sad that people can only feel they've achieved something if they're doing something that nobody else can do. Stop worrying about what everyone else is doing and just play the damn game.
Because if a game is designed to be mostly soloed then it affects how the mobs and dungeons are designed. It's why you get all these games now where the PvE outdoors is pretty much a grid of static single spawn mobs that just stand around waiting to be hit. In dungeons you get one static mob every 30 feet down each tunnel - all seperate solo fights. There's no grouped mobs. There's no group mob AI. There's sometimes a few patrollers but not many or often. If mobs are standing around in a group you can single pull them without the others reacting. You can pull a mob right past another one and they don't react. All the cool stuff from earlier games that created a challenge has been cut out.
Phew, okay. Let me see if I can get this right. The people who enjoy soloing want to be able to get the same kind of gear and accomplishments as the people who play with a group, right? Sorry guys, but if you take a second to step back, that doesn't make any sense at all. You wanna be able to take your one warrior and kill something it took five other people to kill successfully, then you wanna loot it all on your own? Eventually, sure. I don't think anyone's arguing that you ought to be able to do it at the same level as the team, but if that level 50 team killed the boss and you come back as a solo at level 80 and do it, what's the problem with that? And yes, if you do all the work, you deserve all the loot. Sorry, but that's what singleplayer games are for. Singleplayer games are *gasp* more geared towards soloing than games that obviously favor mutiplayer social interaction. Unplug the connection, get to Walmart, and get yourself some god-damn 1995 singleplayer game. Solo players pay the same subscription fee that team-players pay. Do try again, won't you? They can play however the hell they want to play and you have absolutely no say in it. That sort of explains why you're bitching about it on an MMO forum. 'nuff said.
Ok, but what happens when you get to max level and you can't solo a dungeon because it was intended for a group of max lvl players? You see, this is what I'm talking about. I mean, no shit you could solo a lvl 50 dungeon when you're lvl 80 but what about a lvl 80 dungeon? lol I don't understand why you think people have a problem with you soloing a soloable dungeon in a game, even if you are 30 lvls higher than intended. So, you're way off-base there. Nobody cares! Solo that, I could care less.
Also, how do you expect to get the same gear and accomplishments when the dungeon is intended for a group of lvl 80s (and rightfully so, it's endgame content, it should be tough). Too me you're whining about not being able to get that stuff and to be frank, you shouldn't be able to get it solo because the developers never intended that. So what's your point? You want everything to be soloable? All content? Well, that's never going to happen i'll tell you that right now.
Because when you say you want to be able to achieve all content and get all the same stuff, even if it's in a longer period of time, to me it sounds like you want to be able to solo every dungeon in the game, even if it's impossible. So what you need them to change the game for you? lol please... Again, I don't care how you play, but it sounds like you want the game to be changed completely and not only does the change not make sense it's simply not going to happen!!!
The majority of their subscriptions come from the East, not the West. Westerners are much more fond of soloing / casual content than their Eastern counterparts. Therefore, companies that are primarily interested in the Western market, should be emphasizing that casual content over hardcore. We also know that there is a huge base of players who haven't gotten into MMOs specifically because they feel like jobs and are ridiculously tedious. You sure as hell can't appeal to them if they stick with the current forced grouping, grindy, raid or die crap that has dominated the market since it's inception.
You think the genre is becoming too casual now? They haven't nearly become casual enough to really draw in the millions of new players who would consider playing if they were truly casual games.
Grouping + casual isn't unheard of. Nobody has done it yet, but it's a huge niche waiting to be filled. There only has to be one company to take the risk, that's all it needs.
'Forced' grouping is only term for games that heavily encourage group-play as opposed to soloing. I realize most western people are individualists by nature (I am at least), but even then I prefer grouping to soloing in a game.
If I hadn't played a group based MMO before, I would probably share the same thoughts as you now. Especially if I started with a game such as WoW. I've seen the both sides, and have personally come to a conclusion that ultimately games that encourage grouping are the ones I enjoy the most, even with the benefits soloing brings to the table. This might have something to do with my preference to cooperative gameplay as well as PvE, but I think there's lot of us out there that also share my mindset.
Still, I wouldn't suggest making a decision without testing both types of games out first. Right now it's hard since a real casual group based game hasn't been released yet, but when one comes out I'd suggest for everyone to at least give it a try if nothing else. Either it draws you in or not, but at least everyone can make an informed decision by themselves.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
The majority of their subscriptions come from the East, not the West. Westerners are much more fond of soloing / casual content than their Eastern counterparts. Therefore, companies that are primarily interested in the Western market, should be emphasizing that casual content over hardcore. We also know that there is a huge base of players who haven't gotten into MMOs specifically because they feel like jobs and are ridiculously tedious. You sure as hell can't appeal to them if they stick with the current forced grouping, grindy, raid or die crap that has dominated the market since it's inception.
You think the genre is becoming too casual now? They haven't nearly become casual enough to really draw in the millions of new players who would consider playing if they were truly casual games.
Grouping + casual isn't unheard of. Nobody has done it yet, but it's a huge niche waiting to be filled. There only has to be one company to take the risk, that's all it needs.
'Forced' grouping is only term for games that heavily encourage group-play as opposed to soloing. I realize most western people are individualists by nature (I am at least), but even then I prefer grouping to soloing in a game.
If I hadn't played a group based MMO before, I would probably share the same thoughts as you now. Especially if I started with a game such as WoW. I've seen the both sides, and have personally come to a conclusion that ultimately games that encourage grouping are the ones I enjoy the most, even with the benefits soloing brings to the table. This might have something to do with my preference to cooperative gameplay as well as PvE, but I think there's lot of us out there that also share my mindset.
Still, I wouldn't suggest making a decision without testing both types of games out first. Right now it's hard since a real casual group based game hasn't been released yet, but when one comes out I'd suggest for everyone to at least give it a try if nothing else. Either it draws you in or not, but at least everyone can make an informed decision by themselves.
There seems to be a lack of communications between the SOLO and Group camps.
Grouping + casual ( What a misnomer THAT is - I probably put far more hours in the game than a lot of "Groupers") - WoW has servers dedicated to PVE, PVP and RP now - and each has their own rules. What would be the problem making some SOLO ONLY servers- and I mean DO IT ON YOUR OWN. NO twinks (does anyone know what a TWINK is in GAY terminology?) - NO lvl 80s outfitting low level troops with outrageous gear - NO lvl 80s jacking prices up in the AH to where upcoming low lvls cannot buy decent gear.
There are plenty of people out there - like myself - who would switch to SOLO ONLY servers if they were available. THEN who would the groupies have to wail on?
This idea of the Alliance and Horde fighting each other while the REAL baddies are chewing on BOTH factions is also rediculous. Make the whole WoW world the same as Sanctuary areas - players can INITIATE combat if they are STUPID enough to do it. Make the whole world - including all quests - available to horde and Allys alike. The provisions for this are already built into the game. How dificult would it be to change a few flags in the game to accomplish this. Having done a lot of programming thru the years I know that it is possible to write a small program to GLOBALY change things in an existing program. I'm sure Blizzard can afford a few programmers to do it.
While I am making suggestions (ranting) - Why are all the Clothie classes limited to Robes? Why not allow a choice of Robes or Tunics with the same stats? If I want someone to wear dresses I'll create a FEMALE toon for that class. Also why the limitation on weapons? Since everyone has to TRAIN for the weapon why not let them train in whatever weapon they want. I hate stereotypes.
Nowhere in my previous posts have I ever said that I waited till I was 20 lvls higher than the instance. I usually do them within 2 levels of the requirements - My BE Pally made lvl 32 by the time he finished his weapon quest SOLO. I have SOLOED Dead MInes, Wailing caverns etc. - ALL within 2 lvls of getting the quests. OK - so I DO group sometimes - my Hunters have their pets and my Locks have their demons (technically groups?) but my Pallys and Rogues do it SOLO.
There seems to be a lack of communications between the SOLO and Group camps. Grouping + casual ( What a misnomer THAT is - I probably put far more hours in the game than a lot of "Groupers") - WoW has servers dedicated to PVE, PVP and RP now - and each has their own rules. What would be the problem making some SOLO ONLY servers- and I mean DO IT ON YOUR OWN. NO twinks (does anyone know what a TWINK is in GAY terminology?) - NO lvl 80s outfitting low level troops with outrageous gear - NO lvl 80s jacking prices up in the AH to where upcoming low lvls cannot buy decent gear.
How about Solo Only MMO's? Made just for you and by that I don't mean that there wouldn't be no grouping at all- it could be fun sometimes- just that soloing takes the priority in everything you could do in the game!
Now wouldn't that be nice?
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Comments
The problem is, you're confusing a massively-multiplayer game with a massively-teaming game. The two are not one and the same. Even if you're playing solo, there are lots of things you want other people around for. You can get buffs and tradeskilling from them. You can buy gear and supplies from them. You can ask for advice for whatever particular quest you're on. You can actually just talk to people. I know that's hard to believe for the more anti-social people who just want to run around killing indiscriminately and raping the corpses, but normal people actually TALK to each other. Imagine that.
All you, and most of the pro-grouping advocates seem to be saying is "that guy over there is making us feel bad because we need a group and he doesn't, therefore we want to ban him from being solo so he doesn't hurt our feelings! Boo Hoo!"
Seriously, are people that shallow and pathetic?
Again insults don't make your argument sound better. Please point out in the post you quoted of mine where I said there should not be solo in MMOs? I only stated there should be group content as well that takes a group to progress through. Solo is fine but I don't care for a completely solo game. I too enjoy some soloing as well sometimes.
You people that are advocating solo in games are all insulting jerks that can't get along with others. Now after reading that statement see how silly it sounds to stereotype a whole group of people.
The problem is, you're confusing a massively-multiplayer game with a massively-teaming game. The two are not one and the same. Even if you're playing solo, there are lots of things you want other people around for. You can get buffs and tradeskilling from them. You can buy gear and supplies from them. You can ask for advice for whatever particular quest you're on. You can actually just talk to people. I know that's hard to believe for the more anti-social people who just want to run around killing indiscriminately and raping the corpses, but normal people actually TALK to each other. Imagine that.
All you, and most of the pro-grouping advocates seem to be saying is "that guy over there is making us feel bad because we need a group and he doesn't, therefore we want to ban him from being solo so he doesn't hurt our feelings! Boo Hoo!"
Seriously, are people that shallow and pathetic?
Again insults don't make your argument sound better. Please point out in the post you quoted of mine where I said there should not be solo in MMOs? I only stated there should be group content as well that takes a group to progress through. Solo is fine but I don't care for a completely solo game. I too enjoy some soloing as well sometimes.
You people that are advocating solo in games are all insulting jerks that can't get along with others. Now after reading that statement see how silly it sounds to stereotype a whole group of people.
Cephus, you're taking this way too personally I think, otherwise you wouldn't be getting so upset over it. Nobody is telling you there shouldn't be soloing allowed in MMOs and nobody is saying there shouldn't be grouping allowed in MMOs. All that I'm saying, and I think I'm generally on the same page as the "pro-groupers" is that we prefer games where grouping is more beneficial than soloing. Not saying that you can't solo if you want to but that the majority of the content is designed to be completed as a group. I'm not saying all MMOs should be like this and I'm certainly not saying this is the "right way" all I'm saying is I prefer games like this.
If you prefer a more solo centric game or one where neither (solo or grouper) has an advantage over the other or one where soloers have an advantage over groups that's fine with me. I won't play that game, i'll play my game. Just like if you don't like a certain genre of music and I do, you don't have to listen to it. And vice versa. There's plenty of room for both types of music and both types of games and plenty of people to pay for both and subscribe to both. So, why are we arguing here again?
The problem is, you're confusing a massively-multiplayer game with a massively-teaming game. The two are not one and the same. Even if you're playing solo, there are lots of things you want other people around for. You can get buffs and tradeskilling from them. You can buy gear and supplies from them. You can ask for advice for whatever particular quest you're on. You can actually just talk to people. I know that's hard to believe for the more anti-social people who just want to run around killing indiscriminately and raping the corpses, but normal people actually TALK to each other. Imagine that.
All you, and most of the pro-grouping advocates seem to be saying is "that guy over there is making us feel bad because we need a group and he doesn't, therefore we want to ban him from being solo so he doesn't hurt our feelings! Boo Hoo!"
Seriously, are people that shallow and pathetic?
Again insults don't make your argument sound better. Please point out in the post you quoted of mine where I said there should not be solo in MMOs? I only stated there should be group content as well that takes a group to progress through. Solo is fine but I don't care for a completely solo game. I too enjoy some soloing as well sometimes.
You people that are advocating solo in games are all insulting jerks that can't get along with others. Now after reading that statement see how silly it sounds to stereotype a whole group of people.
I never said you specifically said it, I referred to "pro-grouping advocates" and if you've been reading this thread, you know that what I said has come up time and time again. People do want to control how other people play so they can feel better about the way they play, that's a demonstrable fact. It seems to me that these pro-grouping people are far too concerned about what everyone else is doing and not nearly concerned enough about just playing the damn game.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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Yeah, actually, there are. There are plenty of people posting that if you don't want to team in an MMO, you ought to get offline and play a single player game. That certainly seems to suggest that they don't think soloers ought to exist in MMOs, doesn't it? The soloers have never once suggested that we ought to take away the ability of groupers to play in a team, but the groupers routinely post that they ought to stop people from being able to play solo at all.
That's the whole reason people are arguing. I agree there's plenty of room for both, you can do both in virtually any game on the market today and it works just fine... except for the people who apparently feel bad when they see other people playing alone and it fills them with self-doubt. I'm just pointing out that those people need to get over it and stop worrying about everyone else and just play the damn game.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Yeah, actually, there are. There are plenty of people posting that if you don't want to team in an MMO, you ought to get offline and play a single player game. That certainly seems to suggest that they don't think soloers ought to exist in MMOs, doesn't it? The soloers have never once suggested that we ought to take away the ability of groupers to play in a team, but the groupers routinely post that they ought to stop people from being able to play solo at all.
That's the whole reason people are arguing. I agree there's plenty of room for both, you can do both in virtually any game on the market today and it works just fine... except for the people who apparently feel bad when they see other people playing alone and it fills them with self-doubt. I'm just pointing out that those people need to get over it and stop worrying about everyone else and just play the damn game.
I don't think anyone really wants there to be no soloing at all. I think what they mean is that they prefer games where soloing is much less beneficial and not equally viable to progress. This is because they prefer grouping and when you mess with the balance, i.e. make soloing equally viable, it does hurt the group dynamic. However, not every game needs to be like this, so yeah, if they think every game needs to cater to their playstyle, they're off-base.
Also, another argument is that every dungeoun in a game, should have the option of being soloable (not saying you're arguing for or against this, just bringing it up). This logically doesn't make much sense because if you lower the difficulty of the mob(s) to accomidate a soloer it will be too easy for a group to beat but if you don't lower the difficulty a soloer can't beat it so in a sense, it can't be one way or the other. Unless you use a scalable difficulty system with instances, which would mean if you're doing the game on a higher difficulty, i.e. with a group, the rewards should logically be better, which in that case people would still complain.
So, I think the best solution would be to have completely different games so you wouldn't have to compromise and everyone would be happy.
Just out of curiosity, what would your ideal game be like?
Yeah, actually, there are. There are plenty of people posting that if you don't want to team in an MMO, you ought to get offline and play a single player game. That certainly seems to suggest that they don't think soloers ought to exist in MMOs, doesn't it? The soloers have never once suggested that we ought to take away the ability of groupers to play in a team, but the groupers routinely post that they ought to stop people from being able to play solo at all.
That's the whole reason people are arguing. I agree there's plenty of room for both, you can do both in virtually any game on the market today and it works just fine... except for the people who apparently feel bad when they see other people playing alone and it fills them with self-doubt. I'm just pointing out that those people need to get over it and stop worrying about everyone else and just play the damn game.
I agree.
Yeah, actually, there are. There are plenty of people posting that if you don't want to team in an MMO, you ought to get offline and play a single player game. That certainly seems to suggest that they don't think soloers ought to exist in MMOs, doesn't it? The soloers have never once suggested that we ought to take away the ability of groupers to play in a team, but the groupers routinely post that they ought to stop people from being able to play solo at all.
That's the whole reason people are arguing. I agree there's plenty of room for both, you can do both in virtually any game on the market today and it works just fine... except for the people who apparently feel bad when they see other people playing alone and it fills them with self-doubt. I'm just pointing out that those people need to get over it and stop worrying about everyone else and just play the damn game.
I don't think anyone really wants there to be no soloing at all. I think what they mean is that they prefer games where soloing is much less beneficial and not equally viable to progress. This is because they prefer grouping and when you mess with the balance, i.e. make soloing equally viable, it does hurt the group dynamic. However, not every game needs to be like this, so yeah, if they think every game needs to cater to their playstyle, they're off-base.
Also, another argument is that every dungeoun in a game, should have the option of being soloable (not saying you're arguing for or against this, just bringing it up). This logically doesn't make much sense because if you lower the difficulty of the mob(s) to accomidate a soloer it will be too easy for a group to beat but if you don't lower the difficulty a soloer can't beat it so in a sense, it can't be one way or the other. Unless you use a scalable difficulty system with instances, which would mean if you're doing the game on a higher difficulty, i.e. with a group, the rewards should logically be better, which in that case people would still complain.
So, I think the best solution would be to have completely different games so you wouldn't have to compromise and everyone would be happy.
Just out of curiosity, what would your ideal game be like?
CoV does this well by allowing you to set your rep. If you solo you set the rep low and the instance is easier - if you are in a good group you set it high and it is a real challenge for a group. I suspect CoH does the same but I am more familiar with CoV. This allows for solo, small and large groups all to use the same instance for their purposes. The hard rep users get more drops because there are more mobs.
Now, an argument for the groupers - you say solo play takes away from your forming a group.. well if I disagree, I would not play the game if there was not some solo content so the grouping population is not affected. Also I do group when I feel the need, and I stay in the group till all have finished the task, which is more than a lot of those who just group can say.
It doesn't work fine though because if a game is designed to be fully soloable then it's too easy in a group.
Creating a full group to take on mobs that can be soloed by a same level priest of hippyness armed with a flower is just silly and pointless. There's no sense of achievement.
The lower level EQ1 open dungeons got it right imo - there might be 30-40 players in somewhere like Crushbone: 2 full groups, 3-4 groups of 2-3 players and a dozen soloers. The higher level dungeons became a bit too groupy imo but the lower ones were perfect as far as this issue is concerned.
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It doesn't work fine though because if a game is designed to be fully soloable then it's too easy in a group.
Creating a full group to take on mobs that can be soloed by a same level priest of hippyness armed with a flower is just silly and pointless. There's no sense of achievement.
The lower level EQ1 open dungeons got it right imo - there might be 30-40 players in somewhere like Crushbone: 2 full groups, 3-4 groups of 2-3 players and a dozen soloers. The higher level dungeons became a bit too groupy imo but the lower ones were perfect as far as this issue is concerned.
Exactly how can it be too easy in a group? At best, the group might be going after targets that are too easy, they just need to move on to harder targets. It's sad that people can only feel they've achieved something if they're doing something that nobody else can do. Stop worrying about what everyone else is doing and just play the damn game.
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Phew, okay. Let me see if I can get this right. The people who enjoy soloing want to be able to get the same kind of gear and accomplishments as the people who play with a group, right? Sorry guys, but if you take a second to step back, that doesn't make any sense at all. You wanna be able to take your one warrior and kill something it took five other people to kill successfully, then you wanna loot it all on your own?
Sorry, but that's what singleplayer games are for. Singleplayer games are *gasp* more geared towards soloing than games that obviously favor mutiplayer social interaction. Unplug the connection, get to Walmart, and get yourself some god-damn 1995 singleplayer game.
Honestly, the only way it could ever work would be if a game were to make a "solo" option for dungeons (instances, whatever), that would decrease the loot quite a bit, as well as the experience. You wanna solo? Fine. But don't get 40 player's worth of loot and experience just because you dont wanna deal with people. Why would people group at all if you could?
So, there it is. Impliment a solo mode for dungeons and instances, make the mobs and bosses much easier so that they can be solo'd by each class type. However, make it so the person who does it alone only gets their share of the experience and loot. Meaning, if 5 items were to drop normally out of a 5-man dungeon, only make 1 drop. No guarentee on if it's for your class or not. There. That would make it so that there are obvious advantages to playing in a group, but people who only enjoy playing with themselves could get along just fine as well.
I'm sorry, what?
"Stop worrying about what everyone else is doing and just play the damn game."
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isnt that what MMORPGs are all about? Comparing accomplishments, gear, and sharing the game experience with the people around you? Honestly, I don't mean to sound like a prick here, but if you don't wanna deal with other people.. Why the hell are you playing a genre of gaming that prides itself on social interaction? It makes no sense at all. Sure, here, let's change more than an entire decade of gaming so that you can accomplish just as much by playing with yourself.
It sounds like there are two types of people here. Gamers with people skill, and gamers without. Those with don't mind helping a noob out or having to "deal" with other people in order to get the gear they want. The others don't wanna have to even talk to anybody else in order to fap to their shiny new armor and weapons. "GIVE ME IT NOW." type of mentality, really. It's sad, but I think it's what the new face of gaming to going to be, because that's how the new-age gamer is. No need for social interactions. Hell, without the need for group play..
Why have guilds? Alliances? Hell. Why even make the games online at all? If you can complete all the content on your own and get the SAME gear, why bother? Honestly, lets all just go back to singleplayer games. That way, we can solo everything! Yay!
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I'm sorry, what?
"Stop worrying about what everyone else is doing and just play the damn game."
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isnt that what MMORPGs are all about? Comparing accomplishments, gear, and sharing the game experience with the people around you? Honestly, I don't mean to sound like a prick here, but if you don't wanna deal with other people.. Why the hell are you playing a genre of gaming that prides itself on social interaction? It makes no sense at all. Sure, here, let's change more than an entire decade of gaming so that you can accomplish just as much by playing with yourself.
So you think it's about waving your [sticks] around? That's kind of pathetic, isn't it?
[Mod Edit]
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Well then, go ahead. Try and solo it. Fine, whatever. You go do that, and I'll be over here in my shiney new gear that you can't get, and you'll never get. For a pretty simple reason, actually, you're unwilling to play the game it was meant to play. Oh, sure, go ahead and give me that "I PAY MY SUBSCRIPTION I SHOULD BE ABLE TO PLAY HOWEVER I WANT BAWWWWWWWWW" bullcrap, but it doesn't matter. 95% (and yeah, that's made up, but it's gotta be pretty close) of the gamers who play, and I stress this again, MMORPGS are FINE with working with others to get to a common goal. If a bunch of whiney kids who don't play well with others think they're going to change an entire genre just to fit them, they're dead wrong.
And AGAIN:
MMORPG stands for Massivly Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game.
Now, let's take a look at that. Massive, okay. Makes sense, large worlds. Multiplayer. Okay, here we go. MORE THAN ONE PLAYER. As in, more than one player is playing the game at any one time, and *gasp* god forbid, but there may be some social interaction there. Online. Well, On-line.. It's over the internet, so that it better connects it players so that they *gasp again* can play together. Role playing, because of it's roots, and game, because it isn't meant to be taken seriously. Whoops.
'Nuff said.
I'm sorry, what?
"Stop worrying about what everyone else is doing and just play the damn game."
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isnt that what MMORPGs are all about? Comparing accomplishments, gear, and sharing the game experience with the people around you? Honestly, I don't mean to sound like a prick here, but if you don't wanna deal with other people.. Why the hell are you playing a genre of gaming that prides itself on social interaction? It makes no sense at all. Sure, here, let's change more than an entire decade of gaming so that you can accomplish just as much by playing with yourself.
So you think it's about waving your dick around? That's kind of pathetic, isn't it?
Who said that? I just said you enjoy playing with yourself more than playing with others. That's true, isnt it? You do want the same gear and content as people who play in groups without having to deal with the group aspect, right?
God, why does it always have to be about dicks with you guys? Damn. Oh, yeah, and it isn't "kind of pathetic" to pick out parts of a post that are nearly irrelivent and throw in bits of ethics to ignore the counter to your idealism, right? Of course not. /sarcsm
I'm done bickering on a forum, but I will leave with something. You obviously play World of Warcraft, as is easily seen by your references. Now, when you purchased that game, did that "10 million players!" label on the front scream to you that it was a solo game? How about the bit on the inside of the cover that mentioned the group play? And the bonuses for doing so?
Did you honestly think you would come on here, and with a few posts, change tradition? There are singleplayer games for a reason. It's like if I started crying about Country music saying that I wanted it to be Rock from now on. Do you think that would be the case? Of course not. Because there is already Rock music, just like there are already solo games.
Stop trying to change the view and game style of millions of players, claiming it's broken. After a while, you're bound to ask "Is it just me?" And stfu. Or, at least, I hope that's the way it goes.
So it is YOUR way or the highway. Go make your own game, and invite only groupers. I do not see how having soloable content ruins the game. Seems to me you are just being selfish.
I consistently SOLO instances - for example my BE Pally SOLOED his weapon quest (piece of crap ranseur) which is listed as multiple 5 man instances. I am not asking for the instances to be dumbed down.
These CAN be soloed IF the player knows how to play their toon class. Too many people scream that they need groups because the do not know how to play without a mob to back them up. I once had a female lock ask me for help in completeing a quest - and then bitch because I didn't kill everything for her so that she could just walk in and pick up the goodies.
Sorry - when I DO group I expect EVERYONE to do their part. When I solo I don't just jump into the middle of DEEP S**T and expect someone else to kill everything for me. Soloing takes BRAINS which I have not found in great quantity among the groupies I have encountered.
I have clothie locks that can take out three or four opponents in a face-to-face - sometimes just using their pet and a SWORD - (Spells help sometimes if the baddies are REAL nasty) It is all in knowing the class capabilities and limitations.
So it is YOUR way or the highway. Go make your own game, and invite only groupers. I do not see how having soloable content ruins the game. Seems to me you are just being selfish.
I consistently SOLO instances - for example my BE Pally SOLOED his weapon quest (piece of crap ranseur) which is listed as multiple 5 man instances. I am not asking for the instances to be dumbed down.
These CAN be soloed IF the player knows how to play their toon class. Too many people scream that they need groups because the do not know how to play without a mob to back them up. I once had a female lock ask me for help in completeing a quest - and then bitch because I didn't kill everything for her so that she could just walk in and pick up the goodies.
Sorry - when I DO group I expect EVERYONE to do their part. When I solo I don't just jump into the middle of DEEP S**T and expect someone else to kill everything for me. Soloing takes BRAINS which I have not found in great quantity among the groupies I have encountered.
I have clothie locks that can take out three or four opponents in a face-to-face - sometimes just using their pet and a SWORD - (Spells help sometimes if the baddies are REAL nasty) It is all in knowing the class capabilities and limitations.
amen brother - in Lotro I have had people 3 lvls higher than me random invite me to do a quest I have already solo'd.
It doesn't work fine though because if a game is designed to be fully soloable then it's too easy in a group.
Creating a full group to take on mobs that can be soloed by a same level priest of hippyness armed with a flower is just silly and pointless. There's no sense of achievement.
The lower level EQ1 open dungeons got it right imo - there might be 30-40 players in somewhere like Crushbone: 2 full groups, 3-4 groups of 2-3 players and a dozen soloers. The higher level dungeons became a bit too groupy imo but the lower ones were perfect as far as this issue is concerned.
Exactly how can it be too easy in a group? At best, the group might be going after targets that are too easy, they just need to move on to harder targets. It's sad that people can only feel they've achieved something if they're doing something that nobody else can do. Stop worrying about what everyone else is doing and just play the damn game.
Because if a game is designed to be mostly soloed then it affects how the mobs and dungeons are designed. It's why you get all these games now where the PvE outdoors is pretty much a grid of static single spawn mobs that just stand around waiting to be hit. In dungeons you get one static mob every 30 feet down each tunnel - all seperate solo fights. There's no grouped mobs. There's no group mob AI. There's sometimes a few patrollers but not many or often. If mobs are standing around in a group you can single pull them without the others reacting. You can pull a mob right past another one and they don't react. All the cool stuff from earlier games that created a challenge has been cut out.
Ok, but what happens when you get to max level and you can't solo a dungeon because it was intended for a group of max lvl players? You see, this is what I'm talking about. I mean, no shit you could solo a lvl 50 dungeon when you're lvl 80 but what about a lvl 80 dungeon? lol I don't understand why you think people have a problem with you soloing a soloable dungeon in a game, even if you are 30 lvls higher than intended. So, you're way off-base there. Nobody cares! Solo that, I could care less.
Also, how do you expect to get the same gear and accomplishments when the dungeon is intended for a group of lvl 80s (and rightfully so, it's endgame content, it should be tough). Too me you're whining about not being able to get that stuff and to be frank, you shouldn't be able to get it solo because the developers never intended that. So what's your point? You want everything to be soloable? All content? Well, that's never going to happen i'll tell you that right now.
Because when you say you want to be able to achieve all content and get all the same stuff, even if it's in a longer period of time, to me it sounds like you want to be able to solo every dungeon in the game, even if it's impossible. So what you need them to change the game for you? lol please... Again, I don't care how you play, but it sounds like you want the game to be changed completely and not only does the change not make sense it's simply not going to happen!!!
Grouping + casual isn't unheard of. Nobody has done it yet, but it's a huge niche waiting to be filled. There only has to be one company to take the risk, that's all it needs.
'Forced' grouping is only term for games that heavily encourage group-play as opposed to soloing. I realize most western people are individualists by nature (I am at least), but even then I prefer grouping to soloing in a game.
If I hadn't played a group based MMO before, I would probably share the same thoughts as you now. Especially if I started with a game such as WoW. I've seen the both sides, and have personally come to a conclusion that ultimately games that encourage grouping are the ones I enjoy the most, even with the benefits soloing brings to the table. This might have something to do with my preference to cooperative gameplay as well as PvE, but I think there's lot of us out there that also share my mindset.
Still, I wouldn't suggest making a decision without testing both types of games out first. Right now it's hard since a real casual group based game hasn't been released yet, but when one comes out I'd suggest for everyone to at least give it a try if nothing else. Either it draws you in or not, but at least everyone can make an informed decision by themselves.
Grouping + casual isn't unheard of. Nobody has done it yet, but it's a huge niche waiting to be filled. There only has to be one company to take the risk, that's all it needs.
'Forced' grouping is only term for games that heavily encourage group-play as opposed to soloing. I realize most western people are individualists by nature (I am at least), but even then I prefer grouping to soloing in a game.
If I hadn't played a group based MMO before, I would probably share the same thoughts as you now. Especially if I started with a game such as WoW. I've seen the both sides, and have personally come to a conclusion that ultimately games that encourage grouping are the ones I enjoy the most, even with the benefits soloing brings to the table. This might have something to do with my preference to cooperative gameplay as well as PvE, but I think there's lot of us out there that also share my mindset.
Still, I wouldn't suggest making a decision without testing both types of games out first. Right now it's hard since a real casual group based game hasn't been released yet, but when one comes out I'd suggest for everyone to at least give it a try if nothing else. Either it draws you in or not, but at least everyone can make an informed decision by themselves.
There seems to be a lack of communications between the SOLO and Group camps.
Grouping + casual ( What a misnomer THAT is - I probably put far more hours in the game than a lot of "Groupers") - WoW has servers dedicated to PVE, PVP and RP now - and each has their own rules. What would be the problem making some SOLO ONLY servers- and I mean DO IT ON YOUR OWN. NO twinks (does anyone know what a TWINK is in GAY terminology?) - NO lvl 80s outfitting low level troops with outrageous gear - NO lvl 80s jacking prices up in the AH to where upcoming low lvls cannot buy decent gear.
There are plenty of people out there - like myself - who would switch to SOLO ONLY servers if they were available. THEN who would the groupies have to wail on?
This idea of the Alliance and Horde fighting each other while the REAL baddies are chewing on BOTH factions is also rediculous. Make the whole WoW world the same as Sanctuary areas - players can INITIATE combat if they are STUPID enough to do it. Make the whole world - including all quests - available to horde and Allys alike. The provisions for this are already built into the game. How dificult would it be to change a few flags in the game to accomplish this. Having done a lot of programming thru the years I know that it is possible to write a small program to GLOBALY change things in an existing program. I'm sure Blizzard can afford a few programmers to do it.
While I am making suggestions (ranting) - Why are all the Clothie classes limited to Robes? Why not allow a choice of Robes or Tunics with the same stats? If I want someone to wear dresses I'll create a FEMALE toon for that class. Also why the limitation on weapons? Since everyone has to TRAIN for the weapon why not let them train in whatever weapon they want. I hate stereotypes.
Nowhere in my previous posts have I ever said that I waited till I was 20 lvls higher than the instance. I usually do them within 2 levels of the requirements - My BE Pally made lvl 32 by the time he finished his weapon quest SOLO. I have SOLOED Dead MInes, Wailing caverns etc. - ALL within 2 lvls of getting the quests. OK - so I DO group sometimes - my Hunters have their pets and my Locks have their demons (technically groups?) but my Pallys and Rogues do it SOLO.
How about Solo Only MMO's? Made just for you
and by that I don't mean that there wouldn't be no grouping at all- it could be fun sometimes- just that soloing takes the priority in everything you could do in the game!
Now wouldn't that be nice?